EMPLOYMENT BILL

Lord MACKAY of CLASHFERN

My Lords, I think at least some of the ground the noble Lord has covered is ground that we have been over before. Our view of the matter is that peaceful persuasion, peaceful argument, as part of picketing never has been criminal. Since the noble Lord referred to Citrine, perhaps I could refer to his comment in the Third Edition at pages 558 and 561 on Section 2 of the 1906 Act where he says: Picketing confined to peaceful persuasion and argument is not and never has been criminal … So far as civil liability is concerned, the section does not appear to alter existing law to any great extent". In our view, accordingly, the only element of possible doubt is the one to which my right honourable and learned friend the Attorney General referred, in the passage to which the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, has referred today; that is, a very technical obstruction of the highway. Accordingly, in our view, substantially the situation is that the existing section in no way affects the criminal law. So far as the civil law is concerned, the existing immunity of Section 13 is the important one. Accordingly, in our view, the Bill as drafted is perfectly adequate to the situation, and to amend it in the way the noble Lord has suggested would be to introduce a very confusing and doubtful element into the statute, giving 1028 the courts occasion to try and understand why this rather more complicated formula had been adopted. I would invite your Lordships not to accept the amendment.

Lord WEDDERBURN of CHARLTON

My Lords, we are disappointed at this response from the Government at this very late stage. Since the noble and learned Lord referred to it, I have to refer to Citrine. But first I say that the noble Lord produced no argument as to why our amendment would be confusing. Our amendment clearly states in effect that the present law remains the same for criminal proceedings and the Government's new version will apply to civil proceedings. When he cites Citrine at page 561, that is where Citrine is discussing civil liability. When Citrine, at page 569, turns to criminal liability he says: It is clear, therefore, that on the one hand the crime of watching or besetting can be committed by an act of short duration, on the other, peaceful picketing may involve an attending of long duration. The right to picket like any other right must be exercised in a reasonable manner. It does not follow that picketing of long duration is unreasonable. It may, for example, be necessary for pickets to wait a considerable time at a place of work for the arrival or departure of blacklegs". All of this is in the context of watching or besetting, which he begins with in that passage, and he is clearly contrasting the effect of the statute upon the crime of watching or besetting. It is very disappointing that the Government will not move on this. I hope it is not indicative of their approach to these amendments this afternoon, the last time we can really seriously consider these questions. We shall not divide on this amendment, but we shall not withdraw it.

The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EMPLOYMENT (The Earl of Gowrie)

My Lords, I am glad that in the opening few sentences of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, "rent-a-crowd" was formally deemed to exist. I have again listened most carefully to the arguments of the noble Lord. He said that he would return to this issue, and he returned to it along very much the same lines as we debated fully in Committee. I also acknowledge that there is some common ground between us. We are agreed that trade union officials should be able to attend on picket lines and that their attendance can have a beneficial effect on the conduct of the picketing. The noble Lord quoted me as being in agreement with him on that matter in Committee, and I am glad to repeat the Government's agreement again now. We differ as to which officials should be allowed to attend. Noble Lords opposite wish to allow almost any trade union officials to picket, regardless of their interest in the particular dispute. We are concerned—indeed, the whole thrust of the bill is concerned—to limit picketing to those trade union officials who have a direct interest in the dispute because members of their union whom they formally represent are picketing.

When we debated these matters in Committee, I said that I would look again at the clause in the light of comments made by noble Lords opposite and by the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, about the effect on convenors in multi-union establishments. As the clause is drafted, the position is this. A convenor may picket at any of the sites for which he is responsible where members of his own union, whom he represents, are picketing lawfully. He may also picket at his own place of work, whether or not he is accompanying members of his own union. In our view, that will cover most of the circumstances in which a convenor might legitimately be expected to attend a picket line.

Of course, I realise that there may be a few occasions on which a convenor 1032 will not be able, because of Clause 16, to join on a picket line, workers whom he represents, particularly where the picketing is being carried out at a plant which is not his own place of work, by members of another trade union for whom, as convenor of shop stewards, he has some—although I should say some indirect—responsibility. Such cases will, in our view, occur only very rarely. In most cases the convenor of shop stewards would neither want nor expect to picket on a picket line composed entirely of members of another union altogether. If he has any part to play in such a picket, it will surely be to arrange for the appropriate shop steward who is a member of that picket's union and who represents those pickets, to attend on the picket line in order to ensure that the picketing that is taking place is peaceful and orderly.

There is nothing in the clause to prevent him from getting in contact with the shop steward in that way. He can have, and very probably will have, as befits a convenor, an important "backroom" role in organising and co-ordinating, in answering queries, liaising with the authorities and keeping men on the picket line up to date with negotiations through their representatives. The only proviso here is that the picketing he organises must be lawful. If he organises unlawful secondary picketing he may be liable to be sued.

If we were to accept these amendments they would, of course, go far beyond allowing the convenor more scope to picket. They would allow any official of a union to picket at or near the place of work of any member of the same union whether or not he represented those members and whether or not they themselves were picketing. They would also allow an official of a union to picket the workplace of any worker whom he had been appointed or elected to represent, whether or not that worker was himself picketing.

I shall not go over again all the reasons why we believe that such a position would be unacceptable. I particularly do not need to do so because the image I used—the Wild West image which was admittedly a light one—seemed to us to show the reason behind the unaccept- 1033 ability of this provision and the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, was kind enough to repeat today what I said on that occasion. It is enough for me to say that it would create scope for mass picketing by union officials—whether real or bogus —about which real fears have been expressed and which we specifically sought to guard against. I believe that the clause as presently drafted provides enough scope for union officials to join picket lines and to ensure that the picketing is properly conducted. Therefore, I ask noble Lords to reject the amendment.

Lord LEE of NEWTON

My Lords, I should like to give the noble Lord an instance of where that can happen. At one time I happened to be the convenor of AUEW shop stewards in a huge factory of some 27,000 people. I was also the chairman of the works committee which embraced 10, 12, or 14 trade unions. When the negotiations in a dispute reached the highest level with top management I took all those disputes, irrespective of the union from which they came. Therefore, if it was a disagreement, the end product was the result of my negotiation.

If this amendment is accepted, it would have permitted me—I am talking from personal experience—to join those on a picket line whose case I had personally argued with management. Unless this amendment is accepted, I should have been debarred from going on to the picket line to reinforce an argument and a negotiation which I personally had conducted.

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, with the leave of the House, perhaps I could answer the point made by the noble Lord. First, I am in no sense trying to blackball the noble Lord, Lord Lee, for joining pickets, but there is serious concern about the numbers involved in picket lines and some limitation has to be derived where union officials are concerned, or one could get a proliferation of officials in the undesirable way that I described.

In the case which the noble Lord, Lord Lee, presented to us, surely it would not be beyond his capabilities—indeed, it would be the most likely and appropriate way for him to act in that situation—to contact the relevant shop stewards and 1034 give them his instructions accordingly. There is a Medea-like mythology in the union movement that in some ways members of unions are cut off from modern methods of communication, which is not true at all.

Viscount MASSEREENE and FERRARD

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, has given the impression that, the more union officials who picket, the more order there is. Noble Lords may remember the winter before last when busloads of union officials came down from the North to the South, and the picket lines were crowded with union officials. I was present at two such picket lines out of curiosity. So far as I could see, there was absolutely no order at all; there was great disorder.

We cannot accept this amendment; we must limit picketing. I should like to ask my noble friend Lord Gowrie a question. So far as I can see, it is nowhere defined in the Bill what "near your place of work" means. Surely there should be a definition, either giving a mileage or some other way. Perhaps my noble friend can help me.

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, my noble friend has asked me a question, so perhaps with leave I could answer it. The concept of attending at or near a place of work has been used in statutes since 1875, and we have no evidence that the courts have had any difficulty in construing it. "At or near" does not mean "on or in". Neither past nor present law, nor this clause, provide any right or immunity for pickets to trespass on private property or commit any other civil wrong or any crime.

Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, I apologise for not being present at the beginning of the debate on this amendment and therefore, did not hear all that the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, said. However, I have listened very carefully to what the Minister has said in reply. I hope that I have understood him correctly. Did I understand him to say that the convenor would be able to go on the picket line in his own place of work, although it might not be the picket line manned by people of his own union? Was the noble Earl saying that the convenor would not be able to go on the picket line of a union 1035 of which he was not a member in some adjacent or related dispute elsewhere?

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, I shall gladly try to clear up this point. Under the clause as we have drafted it, the position is that a convenor may picket at any of the sites for which he is responsible where members of his own union, whom he represents, are picketing lawfully. He may also of course picket at his own place of work, whether or not he is accompanying members of his union. Our view was that that would cover 90 per cent. of all the likely cases that would apply.

Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, with the leave of the House, could the Minister not look again at the possibility of the convenor being able to picket not only immediately in his own place of work? —which is what I understood the Minister to say; because, of course, nobody is in a better position to know what management is thinking and what management's problems are than the convenor. He has the closest contact with management. It is much more likely that the convenor will be able to convey the correct story and the correct impression than if he has to pass it through another shop steward. We all know that as a message passes from person to person something is added or subtracted, and it is a very different story that arrives on the line. The convenor is by far the best informed person, and I suggest that it is in the interests of industrial peace to enable him to have the fullest possible access to pickets, whether or not the people picketing are directly in his union, because he speaks for all the unions when he is dealing with management.

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, I do not want to trespass on the conventions of Report and I have asked for the leave of the House rather often, but I can, in fact, answer the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, so perhaps the House would allow me to do so. As well as being able to operate through a shop steward on those—in our contention—very rare events when the convenor would not be allowed to attend the picket line under the Bill, he could, if it were that important, of course arrange to attend simply by, 1036 ensuring that a member of his own union was present at the picket line.

Lord McCARTHY

My Lords, I wonder whether noble Lords on the other side of the House have any idea of the sense of despair which they send to us when they make speeches of that kind. We have never denied that there are people on picket lines who do not want to maintain order. We have never denied that there are "rent-a-crowds"; we have never denied that there are people interfering in industrial disputes for their own purposes.

We are saying that, in the main, those people in this country—thank God!—are not full-time trade union officials; that, by and large, full-time trade union officials are trying to prosecute disputes and reach settlements and so, overwhelmingly, are full-time convenors of shop stewards. If the Government really want to ban from picket lines people of that kind, they have nobody but themselves to blame if in the next winter of discontent they get more trouble than we had in the last winter of discontent. It really is despairing for the noble Earl to tell us that shop stewards, convenors and branch secretaries should ring up people. Have you ever tried to ring up a shop steward? Have you ever tried to find a full-time trade union official in his office? There are very few—pathetically few—of these people about. If their progress around picket lines is to depend upon them contacting each other in advance, then I say to noble Lords opposite that they do not understand the first thing about the way in which industrial relations actually operate on the shop-floors of this country.

The noble Earl has given us nothing on full-time trade union officials; he has given us nothing on the question of geographical branch secretaries. Despite all the pleadings of the noble Baroness, he has given us nothing on the very real point which she makes about convenors. It is not only convenors who are multi-union shop stewards; simple, ordinary shop stewards are multi-union shop stewards, and they will be subject to the same restrictions. All we have in answer to these very reasonable and helpful points are, quite frankly—and I say this with great sincerity —jokes about trade unions being wild west shows, attempts to conflate David Basnett with John Wayne and the "Gunfight at the OK Corral". To us this is much too 1037 serious to be joked about in this way and we intend to press this amendment to a Division.

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, once again noble Lords opposite are attempting to weaken the effect of the clause and open up the scope for secondary picketing which we are trying to outlaw. In doing so it is our view that they are going against the feelings and better judgment not only of this House but of the vast majority of people in this country, including a very large majority of union members.

I have listened to a number of pleas from noble Lords opposite asking me for greater clarity in this Bill. But, far from clarity, this amendment, were we to accept it, would, I believe, create great confusion about who could picket and where. The decision would turn on what is meant by the phrase "a worker who is party to the dispute". At the extreme it could mean that where there was a dispute between an employer and a 1042 union any other members of that union could be regarded as parties to the dispute. If that proved to be so, it would mean that any members of the union could come along and picket. In other words, the scope for secondary picketing would be very wide indeed. It would be marginally less wide than it is now, but it would be infinitely more wide than we are seeking to define. We should be back almost to where we are at present, with workers being able to picket wherever members of their union were in dispute.

Noble Lords opposite have argued that that kind of secondary picketing—which they term "borrowed strength"—is a traditional part of trade union activity. Surely that has been used too often in the past as an excuse for people who have nothing to do with the dispute to turn up simply to cause trouble on the picket line and to intimidate those who are only seeking to go on working normally. It has also been argued that the clause as drafted prevents members of a union from demonstrating their solidarity with other members of their union who are on strike. My answer now, as it has been on the other occasions when this argument has been pressed, is that there are more acceptable methods of demonstrating solidarity.

The Bill does not affect the right to demonstrate or protest, or to give financial aid, or to lobby Members of Parliament or even to lobby Members of your Lordships' House. The risks inherent in allowing scope for large numbers of secondary pickets to gather physically, with all the attendant danger of disorder and intimidation that that may bring, are in our view much too great. We feel that the people of this country, including, as I said before, most trade unionists, have stated clearly that they do not any longer wish to be at risk in this way.

When we discussed a similar amendment in Committee on 12th June the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, said at column 610: sometimes it is extremely difficult to get anyone to picket". And therefore "stranger" pickets might come, or be sent, to fill that gap.

But if workers are not prepared to picket in their own cause we see no reason 1043 why others, whether from the same union or not, should be allowed to picket instead of them. Surely the test must be whether the workers in dispute are prepared to picket at their own place of work in support of that dispute because they feel sufficiently strongly about it. If they do not feel strongly enough about it, how can it possibly be justified to allow pickets to be brought from elsewhere to do the job which those immediately concerned are not prepared to do themselves?

This amendment is one of a long line of amendments which the Opposition have tabled, both here and in another place, to weaken the effects of this clause and to leave scope for the kind of secondary picketing which we are seeking to restrict. It is particularly unacceptable because it would leave considerable uncertainty as to what limits the Bill is in fact placing on secondary picketing. For those reasons, I must advise noble Lords to reject this amendment.

Lord McCARTHY

My Lords, the noble Earl is ceasing to surprise me; he is fencing with us now. He knows very well, if he has certain objections to the construction which might be put on the words we have proposed in the amendment, that we are simply asking for a commitment in principle. There may be other ways of phrasing what we propose in order to rule out certain ambiguities. The great majority of people coming from outside in recent disputes would have been ruled out; for example, they would have been ruled out in the case of the flying pickets in 1972 and 1974, and picketers coming from the private sector of the steel industry would have been ruled out earlier this year. It is no good just talking about the groundswell of opinion, although on the issue of groundswell and whether one can legislate by groundswell, we shall discuss that when we come to Amendment No. 45. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Lord SHINWELL

As this is not a private fight, my Lords, I suppose we can all join in. I shall be surprised if the Minister refuses to accept the amendment. I have a confession to make; I have often picketed. Indeed, with me it goes back a very long way. When T heard my noble friend Lord Houghton of Sowerby speaking of his long experience of matters of this sort, it occurred to me that I might mention recalling the picketing that took place as far back as what was called the tanners' dispute in 1889, when Robert Cunningham, the descendant of Scottish kings, joined with Ben Tillett, the famous orator and leader of the dockers, and John Burns, who subsequently became a member of the Liberal Government of 1906 and in the course of doing so decided to leave the Labour Party. I was only five years old at the time, so I am speaking from hearsay or narratives I have subsequently read in order to inform myself about trade union matters.

I have even had experience of mass picketing, which I think I invented in 1919, and perhaps your Lordships will permit me to say what actually occurred. A vast number of men were demobilised from the forces in 1918 and there was huge unemployment. The situation of those men, who had served the country to the best of their ability, created much sympathy among the people, even in political circles. Noble Lords opposite may be surprised when I tell them that one of the most famous and sympathetic propagandists on behalf of those unemployed men was Sir Edward Carson. I have the quotation from Sir Edward Carson in my files. Sometimes I have used it. He was so disturbed at the situation of those men that he protested to the Government of the day about the situation.

What was the purpose of the dispute at that time? It arose because of the vast unemployment which in the opinion of several of us, myself included, could only 1047 be dealt with—we could not expect a complete solution—by reducing the hours of labour. At that time, on average the hours of labour were about 58, and we sought to reduce them to 40 per week in the hope of absorbing the unemployed men, particularly those who were demobilised.

As a result, we had to resort to picketing and I recall the first mass picketing that took place, outside the premises of the Fairfield Shipbuilding Company. Now I think it is the Clyde Shipbuilding Company, or something of that sort. It was perhaps one of the most famous shipbuilding companies in the United Kingdom. As chairman of the strike committee responsible, or the 40-hour committee it was called—not the strike committee, we were not on strike—we decided to ask as many unemployed ex-servicemen as possible to attend outside the premises of the Fairfield Shipbuilding Company in Govan, Glasgow, in order to persuade the artisans not to return to work.

In those days there was an engineering section in that shipbuilding yard. I can recall the engineers, the artisans, the aristocrats of labour. I remember them in particular because they wore hats at an angle of 45 degrees in order to indicate their superiority over the ordinary labourers. The police did not interfere, they allowed it to go on. It was a demonstration; it was successful. The men who wanted to go to work were eventually permitted to do so. But that was mass picketing.

In this Bill there are references to the possibility, even the probability, of some pickets who act unlawfully being either fined or sent to prison. I regret to say that as a consequence I found myself a guest of, at the time, His Majesty, in one of his institutions, first of all before my father was able to find enough money to bail me out, for 2½ months, and then for five solid months in Calton gaol in Edinburgh. What for? The indictment was that I had incited to riot. In point of fact all that I was doing was asking people to demonstrate in order to provide ex-servicemen with employment, by reducing the hours of labour. That was it. So one can understand how mistakes occur. Anyway, I can speak with some 1048 authority on the subject. It was not the first indication of mass picketing. Mass picketing took place over the match girls' strike in the East End of London, led by the famous Annie Besant who, as most of you will be aware, indulged in reading the various periodicals particularly on theosophy on which she became an expert.

I have already said I should be surprised if this amendment is rejected because of the language being used. What my friends are asking for is that the word "picketing" should be eliminated. I want to see it eliminated. I should like to hope that it is never used again. I should like to hope that instead of indulging in debates on these matters about picketing, we should indulge in a debate in order to prevent strikes occurring at all, in order that there should be no picketing. That would suit me much better. After all, what is the whole purpose of this Bill? To improve industrial relations. We have been trying to improve industrial relations for a century, and look at what has happened in your Lordships' House. We are discussing some of the items which are trifling, mere trivia, about who should attend in order to prevent people from returning to work.

I am concerned about the language of this amendment. May I be permitted to read it again in order that it should be clearly understood so that we know what is being talked about? What is being asked is this: leave out ('picketing') and insert"— note the language— ('attending for the purpose only of peacefully obtaining or communicating information or peacefully persuading any person to work or abstain from working')". Notice what we have already done. In the previous amendment which was defeated by a large majority, we decided that only certain persons would be allowed to picket. If somebody sought to picket and was regarded as being unlawful, he could be fined or even sent to prison. Even the question of whether a trade union official should be allowed to picket was questioned. But the answer given by the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, or by the Lord Advocate, I thought was satisfactory. In lieu of a trade union official, a shop steward or someone of the sort could attend. But we have decided that certain people will not be allowed to picket. 1049 That is settled as far as your Lordships' House is concerned.

Well, that being so, now that we have decided about that and decided that if anybody unlawfully pickets he will be dealt with in the terms of the Bill, then it seems to me we could now use language which we can all accept, namely, eliminate the word "picketing" and talk about peacefully persuading. If anybody fails to be peaceful in his persuasion, he can be dealt with according to the law.

Therefore, I would ask the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, if he does not mind, to apply himself as I know he can, logically and objectively; that is the point—objectively. Let us dismiss for the moment any kind of partisanship or trying to weaken the trade union movement, which I do not believe can be done by means of legislation. The party opposite have tried it over and over again; nobody knows more about that than the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. The judiciary have tried it, employers have tried it, and even trade union leaders by their efforts have nearly succeeded in doing it. Now is the time to insert language which we can all accept and for us hope that it can be implemented.

What sort of answer are we going to get? I hope we get a satisfactory answer, because for these words to be included makes all the difference in the world. Responsible and respectable trade unionists will accept that, and I hope will do all they possibly can, within their limitations and capabilities, to see that it is made a success.

The LORD ADVOCATE (Lord Mackay of Clashfern)

My Lords, as has been said several times, the object of the Bill is to improve industrial relations, and if striking out the word "picketing" from the Bill would have that effect, certainly we should be happy to consider such a proposal. But the formula that is being proposed by noble Lords opposite to replace our word "picketing" has been in this kind of legislation for some time, and, unfortunately, at least until now, it has not brought improvement to the industrial relations scene, as the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell had asked for.

We felt that it was appropriate to use the word "picketing" in this context 1050 because it is a word of the English language which is well understood and which describes precisely the activities in respect of which we wanted to limit the immunity provided by Section 13 of the 1974 Act. We were advised that to use the phraseology that has been suggested might mean, for example, that the immunity of Section 13 was withdrawn from a person who came from another workplace simply to address a meeting of colleagues at another factory. So our only purpose in using the word "picketing" was to prevent the clause having an impact on activities which no one would regard as picketing, and which otherwise might be affected by the clause. We had rather hoped that we might receive some credit for this from noble Lords opposite, but instead they seem to suggest that the clause might catch activities which no one intends that it should.

I must confess that we find it a little difficult to be too alarmed about the "ghost" picketing suggestion to which the noble Lord has referred. It does not seem to us that the leaving of a placard or a notice at the entrance to a workplace will usually be a great deterrent to workers going into work or will prove a great threat to the employer's business. Furthermore, we do not think it likely that an employer confronted with a placard will run off to the court to obtain an interdict. He will be more apt either to remove the placard, or to turn it back to front, so that no one can read it.

Accordingly in our view the word "picketing" is a perfectly appropriate word to use in this context. The Shorter Oxford Dictionary refers to the word as applying to men, not to placards. The word has been used in an injunction by the court in the Torquay hotel case. Surely the words used in an injunction are the words which are strictest of all. There the greatest of all standards of precision is required. So if the word was used by the court in an order, it is a perfectly precise word to use here. Therefore we consider that the clause as drafted is preferable to that suggested by the amendment, and we invite the House to agree with us.

Lord WEDDERBURN of CHARLTON

My Lords, the points that the noble and learned Lord has just made were I think paralleled by his remarks in Com- 1051 mittee, when I gave my answers to them. Therefore I shall restrict myself to saying two things. First, I am a little surprised that the long and great experience of these matters by my noble friend Lord Shinwell does not cause the Government just a little more hesitation in the course that they are taking, and that my noble friend's view, from the practical end of his long experience, in favour of greater clarity has not made the Government think again. I believe that this view will be paralleled by many trade unionists who will fear the imprecision that is left, because it goes not only to liability in damages, but also to what are widely regarded as the rather unjust procedures of the interim or interlocutory labour injunction.

However, instead of replying extensively to the noble and learned Lord, I simply say that trade unionists will not comprehend the desire of the Government for the improvements that they want with their formulae when they leave a formula of this imprecision on the statute book. In the interests of time, we shall not divide on each of the matters with which we disagree with the Government, but we shall not withdraw the amendment.

Lord RAWLINSON of EWELL

My Lords, all I wish to say, very shortly, is that one is always impressed by the noble Lord when he makes a speech of that kind, but the air of total unreality which is 1054 engendered by his comments when one reflects upon the situation with which this country was faced only a short time ago is beyond my personal belief.

Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, I wonder whether I might say—and it is not very easy to say it—that I think the Opposition is very mistaken in the line that it is taking on this question of picketing. I believe that throughout the country, quite irrespective of party, there is a very strong feeling that picketing reflects the power of the bully; and I think that this has caused a great deal of fear to people. If one goes back to the various disputes that we have had—and I am making no statements about the merits or demerits of any claims—and to what one saw of the picketing that took place outside Hadfield's, for example, or what took place outside Grunwick, I believe that the presence of so many people, and so many forceful people, brings a fear on ordinary people which is quite undeserved and unmerited.

I do not know what we are going to do about it. I would have hoped that my party would have seen it as their duty to protect people who were the weaker people, or who had less power. It may be a homely illustration, but perhaps I can go back to Grunwick. I am not on the dispute at Grunwick, but perhaps I can go back to that, where we saw those small gardens of those small houses in those streets around Grunwick trampled upon by, what?—10,000 people who had come there by buses. I think that that is wrong, and I do not believe that the people of this country would believe otherwise; and I cannot understand why my noble friends apparently support that action. They would say: "But we do not support it; we do not think that should be done". But I think the whole purpose of these amendments to this clause has been to weaken what the Government wish to do on picketing.

I think this really causes many people a great deal of worry. We have now reached the position, I believe, where the unions, differently from the past because of their greatly increased power, because of the numbers that they have and because of the industrial force that they can wield, do not affect only the profits of the employers but take away from the ordinary people of this country 1055 the services which they should have and to which they are entitled. To go back again to Grunwick and take a very obvious example, for how long was the postal service for the people who lived in that area disrupted? The ordinary people could not get their letters. That may be a small thing, but I do not think that it is a right thing; and I would have hoped that this side of the House would have been able to go along with that particular matter.

My Lords, I know that my Front Bench are not very pleased about this, but I do not think that one renders any service to one's party, never mind anything else, if one just sits and acquiesces in something which one believes to be wrong. I should like to say to several people in my party—I think it has been obvious from the Division figures and it is obvious from people who have come up to me afterwards and before—that there are a great many people in my party in this House (I cannot speak for another place) who agree with what I say but who are not prepared to get up and say it. I disagree with my Chief Whip, and I say that they do feel as I do because they have told me so. I feel that if more people got up and put this point of view we might make some progress.

That is why I wish the Government well on this Bill. I hope it goes through quickly. I shall certainly be unable to support the deletion of Clause 16; but I should like to say just one more thing before I sit down. We have heard a great deal about the winter of discontent. I spoke in this House—and this was during the time when we were in government—about the treatment that was given to Mr. Callaghan, the Prime Minister, by the people who caused that winter of discontent. I should have thought that it was without any argument that this side of the House lost the general election for two reasons: one was the winter of discontent, and the other was the belief that Mrs. Thatcher would do something about the wrong use of union power. I think she has done it, and I support what she has done. I wish the Government well with this Bill.

Lord BOYD-CARPENTER

My 1056 Lords, I was intrigued a little by the patent contempt for public opinion which was expressed by the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy. It was in fact a rather interesting revelation as to his approach, because whatever may be the case about the occasional surges and swells of public opinion on a temporary issue, he must have very little understanding of public opinion in this country if he does not realise the resentment and apprehension which mass displays of picketing during recent winters have brought about. There was the sight on our television screens of large crowds assembling and the mere size of a crowd is itself sometimes intimidatory—and all the horrible incidents, like the Grunwick one, to which the noble Baroness has just referred, or the incidents when girl typists going to work were spat in the face by pickets.

My Lords, if the noble Lord does not realise what harm that has done to the trade union movement, then if he will allow me to say so he is not a very effective defender of their interests. If I may also venture an opinion, I think the noble Baroness, in that excellent speech of hers, was doing far more good to the Labour Party than those who have been moving a whole series of amendments to whittle down the effect of this clause, and who now seek to take it out.

I do not think there is really any doubt that public opinion wants, and rightly wants, to see an end to these great mass pickets, with all their alarming connections. Of course, it is an enormously difficult thing (and the noble Lord is entitled to exploit it) to know where exactly to draw the line and how precisely to draft the clause which should restrict it. For that reason, he was of course fully entitled to move the variety of amendments which he in fact moved. It is a totally different thing to do what he has now done and move the deletion of this clause; and if he persists, as he apparently intends to, in forcing this matter to a Division, he will have done a very bad day's work for his party.

Lord MISHCON

My Lords, I rise not from the Front Bench but from the Back Bench of the Opposition in order to deal with the remarks made by my noble friend Lady Burton, for whom I have 1057 the greatest of respect. I rise so that the attitude of the Opposition, as I understand it, is transparently clear. We have in mind on this side—and I believe that this is so of fair-minded Members on all sides —that there is only one weapon that the employee has in respect of his negotiations with the employer if those negotiations fail. It is, in fact, if it is not arbitration, which so often takes far too long for decent industrial relations to continue, the withholding of his labour and his ability democratically to persuade others that he has a right cause in withholding his labour. From these Benches I do not intend to impugn bad employers who have used their weapon of power and of money over the employees over the years. There are many good employers; there are several had employers. There are many good, faithful employees and decent members of trade unions who find themselves in an industrial dispute.

All that the Opposition is trying to do, as I. understand it, is to say to those who offend against the law, who do not indulge in peaceful picketing, who try to use the power of the bully, that there is no sympathy from the Labour Party for them or from any trade unionist. What the Opposition has tried to do is to see that the law is clear and has the respect of decent trade unionists. The purpose behind the amendments moved—and some may have been good, some may have been indifferent—is to try to get some unity of support for a decent, clear, humane, understanding Act of Parliament. That is the object. If we fail in that object, we will fail to get the respect for this Act that decent trade unionists otherwise might have for it. That is the object of the Opposition; and from these Benches I should like the noble Baroness to know, however sincere her opinions are, that she has mistaken the mood of her colleagues and has mistaken the feelings of those who, like this humble Member of your Lordships' House, has a great respect for law and order and wants trade unionists to have the same.

Lord ROBENS of WOLDINGHAM

My Lords, I am tempted to rise and add one or two words to this debate and to congratulate the noble Baroness on her courage in expressing the views that she did in such contradistinction to those of the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy. We 1058 would not even be considering the question of picketing had it not been grossly abused by certain people in the trade union movement. Those who subscribe, as I do, to the importance of the trade union movement in the national economy, want to see the trade union movement used in a manner which is constructive for the creation of wealth—and the political argument about the distribution of wealth will follow after that. If we do not get better arrangements in relation to men and management in industry then, instead of having a very big cake over which to argue, we shall end up snarling over the crumbs.

I believe that this clause in the Bill will be welcomed by millions of decent men working on the shop floor. Far too many people are brought out on strike without the right to a secret ballot, without any say in what they should do or should not do. The steel strike was a very good example of that. The truth is that those of us who have any close contact with the modern shop floor have seen a complete change in the attitude of the trade unionist working on the shop floor. He is no longer content just to easily follow the desires of some of his elected leaders. It seems to me that the great turning point, from my point of view, was the fact that the South Wales miners, when they had their opportunity for a secret ballot on the recommendation of the South Wales miners' executive to come out on strike in relation to the steel dispute, by two votes to one turned it down. There was a time when you could have gone into South Wales and shouted down any pit shaft, "All out"—and they would have come out regardless of consequences or reason. But that has changed.

The noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, is associated with the Donovan Committee Report and will well remember the evidence we had on that occasion from Mr. Etheridge who was then a shop steward of British Leyland. Who would have believed at that time that it would have been possible for the management of British Leyland to have discharged Robinson, the communist shop steward, and to have their workers support them in that action? I could give numerous instances of where one can see the evidence of the change of mood on the shop floor. TI this clause were put to a vote of people on the shop floor, it would be carried. 1059 They would not follow the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy. It would be carried; because they are getting sick and tired of being pushed around by people who have made themselves almost into second-rate dictators. I do not understand how the noble Lord seems to suggest that we can ignore public opinion. I should have thought that public opinion was very important to this House and to another place.

We must remember that thousands and thousands of pounds of trade union members' money was spent, and is being spent, on paying very substantial expenses for militants to travel from the provinces to behave as they behaved in that period so clearly in our minds. Those members were not asked whether the money should be paid. In some balance sheets of branches, the item is referred to as "delegates' expenses". If there were some inquiry into the money being spent at branch level, one would sec a great deal of that trade union movement contribution being used, in my opinion, in a very disgraceful manner.

I believe it was inevitable, after all the years we have had of peaceful picketing since 1906, that there should have emerged the occasional outburst. But what has happened in the last two or three years is not possible for any Government to ignore. I believe that if we can bring some semblance of order on the picket line, while maintaining the workers' right to withdraw their labour if they so desire; but ensuring that the picket line is used for what was intended in the 1906 Act peaceful persuasion. If this Bill does that and brings that situation back again, it will have been worth all the effort and discussion that has taken place. I hope that this House will pay no attention to the verbiage of the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, in relation to public opinion which seems to me the biggest pailful of slop which I have seen in many years.

Lord UNDERHILL

My Lords, I was not disposed to take part in this debate until I heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Robens. I believe that the two Members from the Opposition Front Bench understand the law of industrial relations and that everything they have tried to put forward is in the interests of better industrial relations. I resent any 1060 suggestion that they are doing anything beyond that. I agree with my noble friend and colleague Lord Mishcon in opposing violence on the picket lines. I oppose violence anywhere if I can do so. But, at the end of the day, one must get down to improving industrial relations.

On one thing I agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Robens. It was when he said that we must get better relations between labour and management. I want to know how we can achieve it. I do not believe that it would be achieved by this particular clause. A number of noble Lords have drifted into matters which concern the whole of the Bill. We are dealing only with this particular clause, and I ask noble Lords to look very carefully at the four amendments which the Front Bench have moved: Amendments Nos. 37, 38, 39 and 41. There was nothing extremist in their amendments. Their amendments would have made more sense of this clause and would have ensured that when we pass laws they can be carried out.

We had the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack yesterday emphasising that we must use simple English; that we must see that we mean what we say when we pass laws. My noble friend on the Front Bench endeavoured to remove the word "picketing". That word is not explained anywhere in the Bill. Efforts have been made to use the same words that are elsewhere in this clause to refer to peacefully persuading and peacefully obtaining or communicating. There is nothing revolutionary about that. What they have tried to do is to make some sense out of this clause. I emphasise to the House that at the end of the day whatever is done with this clause, unless we get down to a firm understanding of industrial relations and what makes workers get damned wild at certain times, then we are not going to make much headway.

Lord GORE-BOOTH

My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate because I do not feel any longer qualified on the intricate matters that learned and less learned noble Lords talk about. I should like to make possibly my shortest speech and express one wish. I have attended certainly three of the debates 1061 on this subject. The more I have attended, the more I have wished for the opportunity—which I now take—to tell your Lordships that it has been a hope to which I have consciously tried to hold since this debate started that we might make a very great effort to make this the last debate on this subject and somehow bring about a situation in which all of us—your Lordships' House and the other place—agree that we need not have another debate on this subject for quite a long time. It should surely be possible for our nation to arrive at a set of rules on this subject with which in our hearts we can honestly agree and to which we can stick for eight or 10 years without having to come back to this subject every year or two years.

I had felt much too shy as a humble Cross-Bencher to say anything of this kind until this afternoon's debate took the form it has. I should like to express the hope that this idea may be present with this distinguished assembly from now on. With certain interventions that we have had—notably that from my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry—I feel that we are arriving at a new state of mind about this difficult matter which I have not heard in these debates before.

We have recognised that a lot of destructive practices to which we—rather decently, in a way—have yielded must he tolerated for certain historical reasons. As an amateur historian one knows that nothing is historically immutable. I express the very deep hope voiced somewhat in the speech of my noble friend Lord Shinwell that there may be a new technique, a new method of facing these issues. I have only made this point because the spirit of this part of this debate might lead to something in that direction.

Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH

My Lords, I hope to speak briefly, but I think it right to do so though I am aware of the fact that the House would now like to come to a decision. I very much agree with the speeches made by my noble friends Lady Burton and Lord Robens. I want to explain why I propose to vote against this amendment. First of all, I start from the proposition that this is a moderate Bill. That is clearly my view. 1062 Some of the extravagant language which has been used both in this House and outside it to describe this measure seems wholly inappropriate.

I should like to pick up two points made by the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, to explain why I propose to vote against this amendment. First, I agree with one aspect and that is that the noble Lord said that picketing is not necessary where there is almost absolute union power, as in Fleet Street, and in the television industry. That is true. But, having taken that point, it is far too much to go on to maintain that we are only looking after the interests of the weak. I would not describe Mr. Arthur Scargill and the large number of coachloads of Yorkshire miners brought down to the Grunwick dispute in that way, and I would be rather surprised if Mr. Scargill thought of himself in those terms, either.

When I was a Minister of State at the Home Office in the last Government I was asked by the Home Secretary to go down to see what was going on at Grunwick. What I saw there was in my view wholly outrageous. There was no question of peaceful persuasion at all. It was a deliberate attempt by a large number of people to frighten those who wanted to go to work. It had nothing to do with peaceful persuasion, yet it was going on day after day with some of the consequences to which my noble friend referred. People living in the area were terrified even to let their children out in the morning in order to go to school. That was the reality of the situation that we experienced on that occasion.

There was a second episode: the recent dispute on the Isle of Grain. That was a situation where a moderate trade union tried to stop other trade unionists from going to work. There cannot be much dispute about what went on because it went on in front of the television cameras. There was no question of peaceful persuasion. Bricks and other missiles were being used in order to smash the windows of the coaches that were taking the people through the gates of that power station. Having heard a very substantial amount of many of the debates which have taken place on this Bill—and I turn now to the point I made at the outset—I believe that there is an overwhelming majority of public opinion in this country, including 1063 very substantial numbers of the trade union movement, who believe that the law should be changed, and I believe that it is right to say so on this occasion.

Baroness SEEAR

My Lords, we on these Benches will certainly vote against this amendment and in favour of the retention of this clause. We believe that this is a Bill which makes it possible for people of varying shades of opinion to agree that we have the legislation that is required as a basis for good industrial relations. We are opposing, and will continue to oppose, amendments which have come from sections of the Conservative Party which express principles with which in some ways we have sympathy, but which we believe, if they found a place in legislation, would make the unity of opinion as a broad basis of support—which is essential for good industrial relations—impossible.

Similarly, we oppose this amendment because in the same way we believe that it would limit the chance of the widespread support that is essential now. For these reasons, we intend to support the Government against this amendment very much in the hope that we shall have no more legislation on this subject in your Lordships' House.

The Earl of GOWRIE

My Lords, I really beg the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, to attend to the mood of the House on this issue. It will be no surprise to the noble Lord that I agree with the remarks of his noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry. It may be more of a surprise to him to say that I also agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, said. If the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, follows the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, in voting for this amendment, he will be getting rid of Clause 16, the effect being to restore the law on picketing to its present state, whereas we are seeking to limit lawful picketing to a person's own place of work. It is absolutely agreed throughout the country that the trouble and civil violence, and the criminal violence, which can take place on picket lines is, overwhelmingly, not conducted by those who are lawfully picketing at their own place of dispute; and this seems to me really not to need arguing.

1064 On the point of public outcry, I do not think the remarks of the previous Prime Minister, I do not think the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Robens, with all his experience, I do not think the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, with his experience, I do not think the remarks of the previous Minister of State at the Home Office, and I do not think the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, could in any sense be referred to as an hysterical reaction to public outcry. The greatest service which the noble Lord could do at this stage would be to withdraw his amendment.

Lord McCARTHY

My Lords, I am a charitable man: I assume that the misunderstanding of our position is innocent misunderstanding, and not misrepresentation. I would only say that we have never suggested and never supported violence. We have said repeatedly from this side of the House that we would not support illegal, unlawful picketing, even on the basis of this law when this Bill becomes the law. We have repeatedly said that we believe that there are ample powers for the police affecting virtually all the acts complained of in respect of mass picketing and flying picketing, and we have always said that we would agree, in broad terms, with the evidence which the chief constables gave to the Employment Committee of the other place on this matter. So we cannot be represented at any time as supporting violence or intimidation or unlawful picketing of any kind at all, and with the possibility of trespassing on the time of the House I must say that yet once again.

Secondly, we cannot be represented as saying that we are contemptuous of public opinion, as the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter suggested. We take as much notice of public opinion as any other party in this House—all politicians have to take notice of public opinion; that is the way in which they get elected. What we are saying—and I suggest that if noble Lords are honest they will accept this; it is the same for them is that there are particular beliefs in public opinion on which we do not propose to base our policy. Nobody has answered me on this. I suggest that that list of examples that I gave of the groundswell of public opinion would be enough to show that on all sides of this 1065 House it is appreciated that, though it is not very easy and you may lose votes—and I accept that noble Lords on the other side of the House may comfort themselves in the fact that there are votes in their position and votes to be lost in our position—you sometimes nevertheless have to t