THE ARTS

§ LORD AUCKLAND

rose to call attention to the Arts, with particular reference to the 18th Annual Report of the Arts Council of Great Britain, Ends and Means; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will recall that exactly three weeks ago to-day this House debated the subject of the problem of leisure on a Motion by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry. You will recall that we had a very serious, useful and constructive debate and the noble Baroness herself played no mean part in achieving that end. To-day, My Lords, we discuss the Arts, with a special reference to the current Report of the Arts Council. It is perhaps a rather curious situation that in the other place the Second Reading of the Obscene Publications Bill is taking place, and I would say that certainly the two are not connected and, in any case, that Bill will be coming here.

This is the second time in fifteen months that I have had the privilege of 492 moving a Motion on the Arts, and it is all too rarely that Parliament, with its great pressure of business, has the time or the opportunity to discuss this vital subject. I should like in advance to thank all noble Lords from all quarters of the House who have signified their intention of taking part. I would especially say how very much the House will be looking forward to hearing the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell. And may I say from these Back-Benches how very pleased we are to see the noble Earl who leads the Opposition in his place? The noble Earl himself has a great interest in the Arts; he spoke in an Arts Council debate back in 1958. We are all very delighted to see him here to-day.

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, who is to wind up this debate has himself had some experience in this matter because he wound up the debate in 1958 very fully and courteously. I am only sorry that no other Scottish Peer will be taking part in this debate. The noble Earl is himself a very good Scot, and I shall have some things to say about Scotland and hope that he will be able to deal with some of the points. I have given him notice of a number of questions with which I will not weary the House now.

In last year's debate I made it quite clear that my main purpose was not to seek for more direct money from the Treasury for the Arts Council, although this money is badly needed. I would say to those, both in Parliament and outside, who criticise Governments of all Parties for not giving the Arts Council more money, which they perhaps should have, that we as a nation have a great many commitments, such as the social services, roads, defence and so on, which are essentials; whereas the Arts, while they are a vital part of our life and a great strengthener in international relations, must, in these critical times, to some extent play second fiddle. But I hope that the Treasury will not regard this as a matter for complacency, and that when the opportune time comes the Arts Council will be given the money which they richly deserve.

I should like at this juncture to pay tribute to the work of my noble friend Lord Cottesloe, who has again performed sterling service as Chairman of 493 the Arts Council, and also to Mr. Nigel Abercrombie, the Secretary-General, with whom I had a most cordial and useful meeting the other day. Currently he has been the target of a great deal of sniping from various sources over the business of the London Opera Centre. I shall have a few remarks to make about that later, but I know that my noble friend Lord Cottesloe will be dealing with this somewhat delicate matter more fully in his capacity as Chairman of the Arts Council. The critics of the Arts Council are, of course, entitled to their views, because the Arts Council is subsidised from public money—as indeed, is the London Opera Centre; but those serving on the Arts Council, and particularly on the Advisory Boards of Music, Drama, Poetry and so on. often do so in addition to their normal jobs as singers, actors, poets and so on. So they really work very hard indeed.

My Lords, before I turn to the Report itself I should like to say that the Arts in this country are very widely supported by our youth. I feel that this needs to be said at this early stage, because we hear all too much about motor-cycle gangs and others going down to seaside resorts, tearing-up the place, beating-up people and making a nuisance of themselves. No one here condones that, and I think they deserve severe punishment. But if we consider the Bank Holiday periods of Whitsun and Easter, probably for every five youths who were at Clacton, Margate or elsewhere causing damage, there may well have been 500 who were at concerts, theatres, art galleries and other places of cultural entertainment, quite apart from those helping in church work, youth work, on rambles and so on. I think that even in a debate of this kind we must put this matter into perspective.

I should like at this stage to put one question to my noble friend: what is being done in the State schools to encourage appreciation of the Arts? I know that at the fee-paying schools, at my own for example, even during the last war, when C.E.M.A. did such wonderful work, we had performances from top-class instrumentalists, pianists, singers and so on. But I wonder whether the State schools are getting their share of what one might call the serious musicians, actors, lecturers and; so on; because I am quite convinced that the steelworker from Llanelly is often as great an appreciator 494 of good music or good acting as is any Member of your Lordships' House. One has only to go to concerts in an industrial town to see in many cases how very well patronised they are.

I was interested in an article in last Sunday's Observer by Caroline Nicholson who was writing on the Leicestershire plan. At one of the secondary modern schools in Leicestershire they have a very fine orchestra, and indeed in the county they have 100 school orchestras. One of them has eleven violins, one flute, one clarinet, two trumpets and a cello. And throughout the schools in the county sixty paintings were lent to the Arts Council in 1961 for exhibitions, and that number has now probably increased. These are, as I understand, mostly State schools, and I think it does them credit.

One of the most vital documents on the Arts in the past few years has been the two-part publication on Housing the Arts in Great Britain, and this is where I think the real problem lies. Most of the concert halls and theatres in the Provinces are totally unsuitable for their present purpose. Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, Sheffield—all desperately need new premises. Orchestras and theatre companies do wonderful work in these places, but quite often players, actors and instrumentalists, having travelled perhaps long distances by car, coach or train, change into their evening dress, if they are playing in a concert, in what are virtually slum conditions.

I should like to put to my noble friend, who, I know, has a very great interest in the Arts himself, this question. It is clearly not possible at present substantially to increase the grants to the Arts Council, which on its triennial system total nearly £9¾ million, which as I said earlier is not in itself a bad sum; but I feel that a separate sum could be granted to local authorities or to some board or something of the sort for either building new concert halls, opera houses and so on or for renovations, where possible. There is a special need for a really big new opera house in the Provinces. I have talked about this to a number of people who know a lot more about opera than I do, and it would seem to me that Liverpool might well be a good centre. Two New Towns are scheduled for the Liverpool area, Runcorn and Skelmersdale. The people of Liverpool are great 495 lovers of the serious Arts, I know we hear about "the Mersey beat" and the Beatles and so on; they have earned us valuable dollars, and, speaking for myself, I am far from disliking them. But it should not be thought that Liverpool consists entirely of Beatle fans. It consists of many, many people who are really serious music and opera lovers, and indeed Lancashire can boast of one of the finest singers of all time, Kathleen Ferrier, whose death at the early age of, I think, 38 was one of the greatest tragedies in the whole history of the Arts in any part of the world.

Some local authorities have already done a lot towards rebuilding. For example, Eastbourne has a new congress theatre in which opera, plays and, of course, concerts take place. And this was built entirely from local resources. When it was first mooted the local ratepayers were not very happy about it, but it has proved to be a very real success, and much credit is due to those concerned in its planning and its use. It was built at a cost of £387,000. I have no doubt that other local authorities have displayed similar zeal.

This brings me to another rather delicate point, the part which local authorities play in helping the Arts. It is all very well to come to the Government for more money, but of course everybody wants more money from the Government, for doctors, nurses, defence, housing and so on. But local authorities themselves have a very real responsibility. I should like to ask my noble friend whether he will ask the Government Department concerned to impress upon some of these local authorities the responsibilities which they have.

The 1948 Local Government Act empowers local authorities to allow up to a 6d. rate for the Arts. I am very jealous of ratepayers' money, particularly as I am Vice-President of the National Union of Ratepayers' Associations, and I have been very critical in the past of ways in which ratepayers' money has been wasted, but a 6d. rate on a population of some 10,000 people would not be a very heavy burden, and there are many local authorities which could allow this. To be fair, it is by no means every local authority which falls down here, and the London County Council are in this category. I believe they have been most generous in their help 496 for the Arts—some people think, too generous. I disagree with some of the policies of the London County Council, but certainly so far as the Arts are concerned I am right behind them.

To turn for a moment to repertory theatres, last year I talked at some length on the repertory theatre in my own area at Leatherhead. This is an exceptionally well-managed little theatre, and it is typical of the theatres which are carrying on in buildings totally unsuited for their purpose. This theatre I knew in 1945, when I was stationed in the Army there. It was then a tiny little—to use a colloquial term—flea-pit cinema. In 1948, the Leatherhead Repertory Company took it over. It is not the acme of comfort, but it has been most tastefully decorated and the standard of productions there is simply marvellous. I would invite both my noble friend Lord Cottesloe, as Chairman of the Arts Council, and the Minister, to come and see one of the productions there. I am quite sure that the board of management will give them a most cordial welcome.

Here, Esher Council, Dorking Council and, of course, Leatherhead Council, give reasonably generous help. Unfortunately, the Epsom Council falls behind. Each year this council decides by a slight margin of votes that it cannot afford to help Leatherhead, but I am glad to see that each year the voting against the proposal gets less and less. I myself wrote a letter to the local Press pleading with the Epsom Council to change its mind, and I only hope that next year something also will happen. The average attendance at this theatre is 85 per cent. of capacity. It is a small theatre, it holds only just over 200 people, and I may say that of the patrons some 2,000 come from the Epsom area. It is largely from that theatre that the scheme for training young theatre managers was born and the director and the staff have really worked hard.

Only the other day, my wife and I saw there a production of Emlyn William's play, Spring to 1600. It was marvellously done, beautifully acted, beautifully staged, but they did not receive any grant either from the Arts Council or from the Treasury towards that production. I should like to ask my noble friend how much money the Treasury have given to the theatre, apart from the Shakespeare 497 theatre, for the Shakespeare Quarter-centenary Year. I think the answer may well come as a shock to many people.

One of the criticisms levelled at the Arts Council is that repertory theatres which are doing well do not get enough visits from the Arts Council Theatre Board of Management, and I think that is a matter that might be looked into. Possibly my noble friend Lord Cottesloe may have something to say on that. It is, of course, difficult, because naturally they have many theatres to visit, and some of them are quite scattered. But it would help morale considerably, particularly as in Leatherhead, and elsewhere, actors are virtually subsidising these theatres by taking an enormous cut in salary; and few theatre managers, who have an enormous job to do, get more than £1,500 a year, and some much less. It is interesting to note that two repertory theatres, one at Colchester and one at Salisbury, receive great support from the local authority. In regard to Colchester, there is help from Braintree, West Mersea, Halstead and Lexton; at Salisbury, there is help from Winchester, Wilton, Romsey and Amesbury—and Romsey and Winchester are in a different county. I think this is quite creditable.

May I now turn to music? Here I think that one of he problems is that we have four full-time symphony orchestras, and naturally the Arts Council finance cannot be expected to cover all their needs. In the London Symphony Orchestra, London now has one of the finest orchestras in the world. A trust has been set up under Mr. Edward Heath which will help musicians, who will now get benefits hitherto denied them because there is no pension scheme, and if a player is ill he gets no compensation. This, I think, is something which is quite sad. The London Symphony Orchestra is making a world tour in September, when for three months it is going to Korea, Japan, China and other countries. It will give 55 concerts, and 32,000 miles will be travelled. Players' salaries will amount to £55,000, and subsistence will account for £35,000. These are just some of the expenses which will have to be met. The British Council grant is £30,000, and the estimated receipts are £100,000.

498 This is outside the Arts Council's scope, but I should like to put this question to my noble friend—a question which I and other noble Lords have put before. Can there not be more liaison between the British Council and the Arts Council on these matters? Two years ago the London Symphony Orchestra visited Israel. They played to packed houses but financially they were very badly off; the expense to which they were committed was at times most embarrassing. Recently, as my noble friend Lord Dundee will know, the London Symphony Orchestra visited Dusseldorf in aid of the British Fair, and a report from a friend of mine who was in the orchestra spoke very highly of their playing and of British music and drama generally during that Fair, but I wonder whether they were given sufficiently generous support from central sources. Apart from that there are the City of Birmingham Orchestra, the Hallé and the Bournemouth Symphony, all of which have carried out tours. The City of Birmingham Orchestra visited Germany last year and gave a very good impression there.

To turn to opera, we are, of course, faced with this controversial question of the London Opera Centre. I have no financial or any other connections with the Arts, so that any remarks I make will be quite dispassionate. I have followed the correspondence in the national Press and elsewhere, and I would only say this. It is absolutely vital that this argument is terminated at the earliest possible moment. There is no doubt that it is the shortage of accommodation for our orchestras and for our students which has sparked off this row. It is clearly quite unsatisfactory, for example, at Covent Garden for the ballet to have to rehearse at Baron's Court and for singers to have to go down to the East End of London. I have not seen this particular Centre, but, unless some satisfactory conclusion is reached, I feel that the Government will soon have to step in, otherwise we may well lose some of our finest young student singers. As I understand it, a committee has been set up to look into the matter, and as the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, is going to speak on this matter I will say no more. Covent Garden, of course, has problems of its own which are outlined in the Arts Council Report. The annual 499 grant is in the region of £700,000, which is totally inadequate for its present needs. At the present time it is closed for repairs and rebuilding in some sections, but this will help matters only marginally.

I should like to pay a tribute to my noble friend Lord Drogheda and to the administrators of Covent Garden for the excellent work which they have done. Some of the sniping at Covent Garden recently has been very unfair. Prices have been criticised. When Callas and Gobbi came to sing in Tosca there were criticisms that the prices were too high. If one had gone to Rome or New York one would have had to pay far more. I am not saying that something could not be done. No doubt a higher grant from the Arts Council would allow prices to be lowered, but if one is going to have stars of international calibre coming to London and elsewhere one has to pay the prices. One cannot expect them just because they are coming to London constantly to undercut their prices, and the general public must realise it. Of course, the main problem surrounding Covent Garden is the moving of the Market, and no doubt when that is done and when the International Centre is sorted out there will be more room. My own feeling is that it is very much more vital to have a really good, first-class opera house than to have an international centre or anything of that kind. I realise that this is a controversial comment and it is purely my own view as an ordinary opera lover.

Here again, as I have already said, the Provinces need help. They badly need a new opera centre. It is interesting to note that many of our own stars have been asked to go abroad to the famous opera houses there. It is quite wrong to think that it is only Italy and Germany which can produce first-class opera singers. My wife, my elder daughter and I went to see Carmen at Sadler's Wells (another theatre which is direly in need of more money) and saw a really excellent production, for which seats were priced very reasonably indeed. I feel that this point ought to be made. Last year I mentioned Opera for All, and the Arts Council's Report for the current year gives an impressive story of their achievements. Right down from Newquay, in Cornwall, up to the 500 Orkneys they have performed in halls of all sizes and shapes, and have catered for small towns which have just as great a love of the Arts as have our big cities. They often have to rely on an ancient piano, and I hope that the Arts Council will see fit to increase their grant so that at least in some places they can have a small orchestra, which would be of great help to the singers.

I should like now to turn to Scotland. One of the finest theatres in this country, in my view, is the Festival Theatre at Pitlochry, which receives from the Arts Council a grant of just over £4,000. But under Mr. Ireland's vigorous secretary-ship they really have done marvellous work. Their current productions this season include such excellent plays as Daphne Aureola, and last year J. M. Barrie and other famous dramatists were represented. Again, though, despite generous grants from the Perthshire County Council and the Pitlochry Town Council, they are starved of cash. It is a lovely theatre in a most glorious setting, and it deserves better than the support which is given to it financially.

As with so many theatres, it is through coffee mornings that the finances are raised. This is the case at Leatherhead, Pitlochry, Salisbury and elsewhere. It has to be what one might call private functions which raise the money. Coffee mornings are quite a usual thing in political circles, in art and elsewhere, but it does seem rather terrible that some theatres virtually owe their existence to a coffee morning. At Leatherhead over Whitsun the annual theatre fête raised £600, due largely to the hard work put in, and also to good weather. This will enable some redecoration to be done and a room to be built for the set designer. Chichester has, of course, done very good work. The productions last year of Saint Joan and Uncle Vanya really set a new standard for the British theatre of the middle-1960s. The Arts Council have also granted financial allowances to eighteen provincial art festivals; and I have already mentioned the enterprise of the schools in Leicestershire.

I shall not say anything about the visual arts, because I am hoping that my noble friend Lord Croft may deal with that point. But it is vital to remember that it is not only in the Royal Academy—with all respect to that fine 501 body—that our finest pictures are seen. One can go round villages, into pubs and into L.C.C. parks and see some excellent paintings by our own art students. In my view, we do not boast sufficiently about our achievements in this respect. I would say, despite the criticism of the Arts Council, that without a Minister of Arts the Council's grant has been multiplied tenfold in eighteen years. I think that is really the crux of the current Report, which has been very well set out.

There are twelve other speakers to follow me, some of whom will deal more exhaustively with the actual technicalities of the Report. But I should say, in conclusion that I feel that, however much we may criticise the Arts Council, the Treasury, local government and anything else, the public themselves have a part to play. The Arts cannot function without patronage, and it is therefore the more vital that the Provinces have a larger share of the cake. My noble friend Lord Cottlesloe quite fairly took me to task last year for my saying that the Provinces were starved. I am sure that the Arts Council are doing their utmost there, but it is not only London which produces either our finest singers and actors, or our best audiences; and, of course, they must have premises. This, I believe, is the real nub of this year's problems. The actual money going to the Arts themselves is probably adequate, but music and the theatre cannot function in what are often slum dwellings, and I hope that the Government will pay particular attention to this point. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I know that all on this side of the House will wish to thank the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for raising this subject and for the way in which he has done it. If it is not too senile a compliment to pay him, I feel that no one has worked harder than the noble Lord in this House in recent years, and he has certainly earned the increasing approval of your Lordships. He has done well to attract so good an attendance in spite of the rival attractions—the obscene publications on which his mind seemed to dwell, and the Derby which, of course, has interested other noble Lords. But many have resisted the other blandishments. It is not part of my duty to 502 announce the result of the Derby, but I have always believed in Santa Claus and I believe more than ever in Santa Claus at this moment. I know that my pleasure in that thought is shared by the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, and so many others who combine high-mindedness with a knowledge of racing.

My Lords, I am not going to deal in a general way with the Report of the Arts Council. I am leaving that to other speakers on this side: the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who will wind up; the noble Lord, Lord Willis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, to whom the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, paid so graceful a compliment. I think we are all looking forward with special interest to her speech. We combine such admiring, affectionate memories of her husband with confident hopes, equally affectionate, for her own success. It was said of the famous Lord Rosebery by his tutor at school that, if not a poet, he was of the stuff that poets delight in. It may be said that Lady Gaitskell, if not an artist herself, is of the stuff that all artists delight in, and she is specially well qualified to take part in this debate to-day.

With the permission of the House I am going to deal with a single issue—the position of the author. I need not embark on a metaphysical discussion of what is and what is not an author. Having myself, like other Members of the House, perpetrated a book or two, I suppose that I must declare an interest. But my application to be a member of the Society of Authors has not yet, so far as I know, been considered (I assume that it has not been turned down), therefore, I do not feel that I have altogether forfeited my amateur or objective status.

A few days ago I was talking to one of the most famous of British authors, an acknowledged master of English prose, and he was complaining that so many politicians insisted on intruding into his field—in other words, in writing books —in spite of writing so badly. "Why don't you all chuck it?", he said to me, a trifle testily. I retorted that professional writers tend to he frequent, if rather laborious, speakers, and that no one ever said that they spoke particularly well. "In any case", I said to him, "if you had your way "—he is one of the greatest writers, I suppose one 503 could say, in the country—" how many books would you allow to be published every year? ". He replied, "Fifty in every year, at the outside "—which would cut down the number very drastically. I do not think that is the point of view of most of us. Most of us here in this House, and in the country, who claim any degree of education, and a great many who would not make any such claim, derive much of our joy in life and our continued education from a wide variety of books; and most of us, I think, on reflection, are grateful not just to a few superb writers but to a large number of authors, and would like to identify our happiness with theirs.

How are authors treated by the Arts Council, to whose work I should like to pay a measured tribute?—in other words, I recognise their sincerity and devotion, while on this subject I cannot congratulate them. The Arts Council Report for 1962–63 shows that the total sums allocated by the Arts Council to all projects which come under it amounted to £1,723,000—about £1¾ million. The dramatist may benefit to a small extent, indirectly, through the royalties he gets from theatrical productions which are stimulated by Arts Council subsidies and guarantees against loss; the poet may benefit to an even smaller degree from the Arts Council-aided poetry readings. But of the total sum now allocated annually by the Council (and I shall be corrected by the eminent noble Lord who is going to follow me if I am going too wrong, one might say) between £1,000 and £2,000 (certainly not more) goes directly to the author. I would describe that as a wretched little figure.

My Lords, are we surprised that this direct aid to the author should be so infinitesimal? Perhaps not. Perhaps noble Lords take it for granted. I suppose we are accustomed to the fact that the Arts Council has interpreted its Charter in such a way as to put the emphasis on benefit to the consumer (that is, the public) rather than benefit to the producer (that is, the author). But ought we not to be rather surprised? Is it not rather surprising that, when the State has decided to concern itself with the Fine Arts, the State should almost entirely overlook one very important part of that field—namely, the author? And surely 504 it is quite wrong, as I suggested just now, to treat this as a matter in which the interests of producers and consumers can be separated. I may be asked: "Why should the State look after the author? "A good many years ago a very wealthy man, then and now a much respected Member of this House, whom I shall call Lord Bloggs—he is not, so far as I can see, in the House this afternoon —spoke to me as follows: "People often say, 'Why does Lord Bloggs complain so much of all this taxation? Why can't Lord Bloggs look after himself? 'I can tell you this", said Lord Bloggs, dropping his voice confidentially, "Lord Bloggs is blank well looking after himself "—and, so far as I can judge, he has continued to do so very successfully ever since.

People may say, "Why can't the authors look after themselves? ", and what I am saying is partly a reply to that kind of implicit suggestion. I would just remind noble Lords that we should not be misled by headlines about the great riches made by a few authors. Most of us have read and enjoyed a book such as The Spy Who Came in From the Cold, and some of us have enjoyed, and others not enjoyed so much, the books about James Bond and the works of Agatha Christie—and, of course, there we have household names. But the reality for the vast majority of authors is totally different.

When I decided to speak in to-day's debate I consulted the Society of Authors about the situation of authors generally, and I learned that from a sample survey taken some years ago it was discovered that something like 60 per cent. of the members of the Society earned less than £500 a year from authorship. They no doubt have to earn their living in some other way; but 60 per cent. of their members—and to be elected a member you must be a reputable author—earned less than £500 a year from authorship. And this £500 a year is not a steady, predictable income: it is an average over a number of years —years which are so full of ups and downs that making any kind of budget for the future is impossible. I would just add—and these figures were shown to me in confidence—that the financial position of some of our most respected writers, now elderly, would astonish and 505 horrify the whole House if I were at liberty to reveal the figures. Some of these splendid writers would be found to have given away quite a lot of their money, when they had it, to help younger writers—but now, of course, they have none to give.

I may be told that the lot of the author is the lot of every self-employed person. I think there is some truth in that, but I should like to submit that this particular type of self-employed person, the author, suffers under disadvantages which, if not peculiar to him, are borne by him to a specially marked degree. I should like to mention five disadvantages under which the author suffers. In the first place, his earning capacity depends on his health. Perhaps more than almost any self-employed person, nervous and physical exhaustion makes it impossible for him to work at all. If he is ill, not only does his current income dry up but he may lose the chance of future commissions. He has behind him no office to provide him with sick pay, or even to pay the employer's half of his National Insurance contributions; and he has no assistant to take over temporarily. Secondly, when he gets old he has nothing but his old-age insurance pension. The precariousness of his active life has enabled him to put little or nothing by for his later years.

Thirdly, the author has special difficulty in obtaining at a reasonable rate accommodation in which he can live. This is something which was rather new to me. His unpredictable income means that he is unlikely to be able to obtain a mortgage on a house. Few building societies, I am told, will accept him; and he has no "local job" qualifications for a housing list. Again, that last point was something which had not occurred to me. Fourthly, in many cases, because of the risky nature of the income from writing, he has to have a subsidiary job, and often his literary work cannot begin until he is already fatigued from his other occupation—and, therefore, it sometimes cannot begin at all.

Finally and fifthly, the capital, the copyright property, which he creates is automatically extinguished 50 years after his death, in the sense that it can be exploited without any benefit to his heirs. During his lifetime it cannot, like other 506 forms of capital, be disposed of in any way without attracting tax. The Society of Authors has for many years unsuccessfully pressed for the author's right, if he wishes to exercise it, to raise a tax-free capital sum by selling a copyright, or part of a copyright. Those are some of the disadvantages under which the author labours, and, while I would not say that they were entirely peculiar to the author, they are borne by him to an outstanding degree.

Now what of the future? With the advent of the shorter week and leisure about which we have heard so much in recent times, we are told that books will become necessities. Taking that argument for a moment, are we sure that the producers of these necessities are going to be treated on a par with the producers of other or material necessities? No doubt there is going to be more reading, and that may involve a great deal of extra recourse to the libraries; but it will not necessarily involve more book buying or more royalities to the authors. The only way to ensure that would be if the author benefited each time his book was borrowed from the library. It may be that a writer of fiction may best be aided by funds made available by small payments from public libraries. I will not go into this question now; it has been and is being argued elsewhere. I will not argue whether these payments should come from the borrowers, from the rates or from the Treasury; but I think that novelists, particularly, are good candidates for help of this kind, because there may in this country be something like 300 million free issues from libraries every year. But the novelist at present benefits to a very small extent from that.

It seems to me an approach of that sort is far from the only one open to the State. Is it not the responsibility of the State to do anything to enable the author to produce serious and solid works of literature? There is something to be said—or so it seems to the older people—for the young to have to fight their way. After all, we older people suppose it good for the young to learn about life, and that forces them to embark on some career apart from authorship; but the young can be assisted and are assisted to a limited extent by a number of awards. For example, there 507 are the Eric Gregory and the Somerset Maugham awards which are administered by the Society of Authors. Those are awards for young writers. I urge that more should be done for the young; but it is the middle-aged and the old who are likely to be in much worse trouble. I am advised that unless a middle-aged writer can write a near bestseller every few years he is almost certain to be tied to a second job; and he is almost certain to have family responsibilities. He simply cannot afford to take a sabbatical year to write a major work which will almost certainly involve a great deal of research.

A number of middle-aged British authors are going to the United States for a year as visiting professors; and this helps them, no doubt, to pay off some past debts and to save a little while they are there. There is no doubt that this is entirely to the good and they benefit from the experience. But can we do nothing here ourselves of a comparable kind? The total donated to writers through literary prizes and benevolent funds administered by such bodies as the Royal Literary Fund and the Society of Authors—and of course the Arts Council—is not more than £15,000 a year. This is tiny compared with the amounts donated in the United States.

In short, my Lords, if I may draw to a conclusion, if the State is to recognise a responsibility to authors it seems to me that there are two ways or headings under which the effort to help them should be made. First, money should be made available for the writing of serious literary work; and, secondly, really adequate pensions should be provided for authors who have made their contribution to the nation's literature or even to our enjoyment, if that is to be distinguished from high literature. Taking that point, the assistance with research, I would suggest that the Arts Council must receive a much larger grant. I would say straight away the grant should be doubled. And a large part of it—and it is for the Arts Council themselves ultimately to say how large a part of it—should be earmarked for grants to authors who can provide evidence that they wish to engage on serious literary work. As I have said, in the 508 case of non-fiction this will usually involve a good deal of research.

I know that at one time it was assumed that the words "fine arts" in the Arts Council Charter excluded literary works. But since Sir Alan Herbert took up the matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer I realise they are no longer compelled to interpret—and the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, will have something to say about this—their Charter so narrowly. It may be asked: how is the right choice of recipient to be made? Of course, no perfection is possible here, but the Society of Authors themselves are satisfied—and I would myself believe it right—that people experienced in this field, including the Arts Council themselves, have devised various successful ways of allocating grants. We must therefore not be defeated by the argument that, even if we have the money available, no one will know who deserves it most.

While still on this question of assisting the practising author I could dwell on tax concessions, but this would take us rather far afield to-day. I would suggest that the second aim of assisting the older author could best be achieved by making a dramatic increase in the sums available in the Civil List for making grants to authors. I can only say a "dramatic increase" because no one can tell me —and the Society of Authors themselves do not know—what the grants to authors from the Civil List amount to or how much money is available for them from the Civil List. What I have been able to discover is that the pension normally granted from the Civil List to an author is in the region of £175. That is a derisory, contemptible figure, the sum of £175 for some aged author who has earned our profound gratitude. I wonder how many noble Lords were aware that this was the average grant. Certainly, if a distinguished author—and this applies to many —has earned the nation's gratitude he should be entitled to a sum at least ten times £175.

In short, my Lords, I believe that the fault underlying all the grants to authors, whether from the State or made in other ways, is the minuteness, the pathetic, infinitesimal size of the sums available. Time and again it is a question of just a very little, and that tends to be too late. Why should official help from all these quarters take so niggardly a form and be 509 doled out in so patronising a way; and why on such a miserable scale? I would submit that the whole attitude, the whole national attitude, here needs drastic re-thinking if we are going to make any showing at all as a nation that cares for its culture and realises that culture depends on those who create it.

§ LORD COTTESLOE

My Lords, we should all of us be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for the thoughtful speech with which he initiated this debate. Just before Whitsun we had a most important and interesting debate on the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, on the Problem of Leisure. Since then we have seen at Margate and Brighton demonstrations of what is liable to happen when young people do not know what to do with their leisure time. We have in front of us, and not very far in front of us, the prospect of such developments in science and automation applied to peaceful purposes as to enlarge enormously the leisure available to the whole community, to the rich and to the comparatively poor—though I suppose there will be no poor in this millenium—to the old and to the young alike. It is essential that they should all have every opportunity and every encouragement to learn how to use that leisure, that the fantastic increases in leisure that lie in front of us should not result in a terrifying increase in boredom and frustration as they might so very easily do.

We are, I think, in grave danger of becoming, not the masters of science and automation, but their victims. If that is not to happen, if the almost universal preoccupation in every country in the world with science and its applications is not to lead us into one or another of a number of possible worlds all equally horrifying—the world of George Orwell's 1984 is one of them—the Arts and Humanities must go hand in hand with the Sciences, to temper and humanise them. The Arts are indeed only one facet of the problem of leisure, but they are perhaps the most important, and a balance between the Sciences and the Arts is essential if we are to develop into a fully balanced and civilised community. That is why, as Chairman of the Arts Council of Great Britain, I particularly welcome this debate, following so soon 510 after our debate on the Problem of Leisure.

The Arts Council is charged, under its Charter, with the duty of spreading the knowledge of the Fine Arts in Great Britain and raising the standards of performance. The precise words are set out at the beginning of the Secretary-General's introduction on page 3 of the Report that is the subject of the Motion we are now discussing. They could not have been more aptly devised to set up an attack on the problem of leisure. On the whole the Arts Council is, I hope and believe, generally felt to be carrying forward the requirements of its Charter reasonably well, but the expansion of knowledge and activity, and the improvement in standards are never as rapid as ideally they should be, never nearly fast enough to keep pace with the growth of science and its application to the production of leisure and of wealth. We do all the time go forward, in spite of setbacks in one place and another, but we never can go forward fast enough. Finance is not the only limitation. What we do to help, to encourage, to advise, is in many ways more important than what we can do to prime the pump of artistic activity with money. But it remains true that finance is the greatest of our limitations. However, there is all the time some real progress.

Perhaps your Lordships will forgive me if I speak more of things as they now exist than of the year actually covered by this Report, a year that ended more than twelve months ago. If I may first take opera, as the most sophisticated and most expensive of the Arts, it is absolutely untrue, as was suggested a few days ago in another place by a Member who ought to have known better, that none of the political Parties could have made such a mess of the operatic world as the Arts Council. The fact is that opera in this country has never been so good nor so widely accessible as it is to-day. At the Royal Opera House, the standards of production and performance are higher than they have ever been, as high as anywhere in the world. We have heard at Covent Garden this year, among much else that has been good, superlative performances of Tosco and Otello, and performances of I Puritani, Falstaff and Figaro so fine that one can hardly expect ever to hear better. If Covent Garden now 511 leads the world, as it does, much of the credit must go to that great artist, Mr. Georg Solti, the artistic director, and we are very fortunate in this country that we have him there.

At Sadler's Wells the standards are admirable and the repertoire most enterprising. The double company not only plays constantly at Rosebery Avenue, but also carries opera of high standards into the Provinces, with an average of 38 weeks of touring in the year. The astonishing triumph of perfectionism at Glyndebourne, which owes nothing to public funds and is unparallelled in the world, continues on its wonderful course. The English Opera Group, the Handel Opera Society and the New Opera Company continue their invaluable work in their own respective fields. Intimate Opera and Opera for All carry small-scale productions of good quality to places all over the country, where productions on a larger scale can never be possible, and enlarge the public for opera; as do the special performances arranged for young people by Sir Robert Mayer's organisation, Youth and Music.

The Arts Council does not for a moment claim the credit for all this, though I am happy to think that it has been able to be of assistance in many quarters and in many ways. The whole picture of opera in this country to-day is healthier and more extensive than ever before and the fine work that is being done to-day will bear increasing rewards as the years pass.

The one unhappy spot in the whole operatic picture is the London Opera Centre, which has lately received some notice in the public Press. This school for advanced training in opera was opened only last September. Its first year of training for its students has not yet been completed and it is far too early to assess the measure of its success or failure, as some small part of the Press and some small section of the public seem to have been anxious to do. There has been a great deal of misconception about the origins of the London Opera Centre. The National School of Opera, founded in 1948, did good work, but it was not broadly based and its limitations were such—let me make it quite clear that those limitations were inherent and were no reflection on those whose admirable 512 work founded and built up the school—that it was widely felt that something more was needed.

Five years ago, Covent Garden, Sadler's Wells and Glyndebourne, the three permanent organisations who are particularly interested in the end product, together asked the Arts Council to carry out an inquiry into the training of opera singers in this country. And let me emphasise that it was the opera companies who were dissatisfied and wanted the position investigated. The Council invited a strong independent committee, under the chairmanship of Lord Bridges —whose impartiality no one can question —to make the investigation.

Lord Bridges's Committee, after hearing evidence from the six schools of music in this country that include opera training, from the National School of Opera itself and from various other sources, as well as from the opera companies I have referred to, recommended unequivocally the establishment in London of a new and independent school for advanced opera training. It was implicit that the new school should take over the work of the National School of Opera on a broader footing and in association with the permanent opera companies.

The Arts Council accepted that recommendation and made the initial appointment of Governors for its formation and management. They included three of the Governors of the National School of Opera and the Chairman and chief executives of Covent Garden, Sadler's Wells and Glyndebourne, with Mr. Gerald Coke, Chairman of the Glyndebourne Trust and a Director of Covent Garden and of the Royal Academy of Music, as Chairman. The Governors appointed as Director Professor Proctor Gregg, and the two Principals of the National School of Opera, Miss Joan Cross and Miss Anne Wood, agreed to join the new school as Director of Studies and as Warden. It was a strong team of Governors and Principals.

The search for premises proved difficult. The Bridges Committee had recommended that the building should allow of full-scale opera rehearsals and should be easily accessible from Covent Garden and Sadler's Wells. After exhaustive inquiries, it appeared that the most suitable premises—indeed, the only premises available that were not quite unsuitable 513 —were the Troxy Cinema. As Covent Garden was also in dire need of a rehearsal stage, it was convenient on various grounds that they should share in the use of the building. The cinema was acquired and improved. The London Opera Centre was established in it and opened on September 23 last year. All this is straightforward enough.

Differences, however, soon began to develop between the two ladies I have referred to and the Director. They had, of course, been used to running their own school in their own way. The differences were more, I think, due to a clash of personalities than to real differences of policy, though some differences of policy there were. When the Director told the Board that his health would not allow of his continuing after the end of the first teaching year this coming summer, and the Governors selected Mr. James Robertson as his successor, the ladies chose to resign, their resignations to take effect also at the end of the Centre's first year.

The reasons given in the Press for their decision were not communicated to the Governors or the Administrator before they sent in their resignation. Of course there were growing pains, but there had been no suggestion that conditions were unbearable. The ladies then took the somewhat unusual step of absenting themselves from duty without notice, in order to hold a Press conference for the purpose of publicly criticising the employers for whom they were still working, and they were not unreasonably suspended from duty.

The publicity given to these resignations naturally caused uncertainties, and some other members of the staff also resigned; and more recently three of the Governors, all of whom are closely connected with the National School of Opera, have also resigned. These resignations have not in most cases meant immediate withdrawal of the services of teaching staff. Tuition at the centre continues smoothly, and what little time has been lost by the students will be made good by the end of the term. Both the Director and the Director Designate are at work at the Centre at the present time.

The Governors have appointed my noble friend Lord Robbins, Mr. Keith Faulkner and Mr. Norman Tucker as 514 a Committee, with Lord Robbins as Chairman, to examine in detail the criticisms that have been made and to consider plans for the future, and have invited the Arts Council to associate themselves with these investigations. The Committee have, I understand, also invited Dame Ninette de Valois, Mr. John Diamond, M.P., and Mr. Jack Donaldson to join them in their investigations, and I understand they have all expressed their willingness to do so.

The most important of the criticisms put forward is that the training is too academic and is out of touch with the real requirements. This no doubt is a matter that the Committee will particularly wish to examine, and Mr. Norman Tucker, as the Artistic Director of Sadler's Wells, is especially qualified to judge of this matter. He knows just what sort of finished product is required by the opera houses. To the layman like myself, it seems that the end of the second term (there are, of course, three terms in the year) of the first two-year course of training at the Centre is far too early to attempt to pass any judgment. But no doubt the whole question will be the centre of the Committee's consideration of plans for the future; and I think the Committee should, and will, be much more concerned with the future than with the past. A preliminary inquiry has made it evident that many of the other matters of complaint, in so far as they are not trivial, have already either been put right or set in course of remedy.

The much-criticised building is not, of course, free from faults, but the building is commodious and well cared for, and the teaching accommodation is in fact extremely good. There are excellent large rehearsal rooms, a lecture theatre, plenty of good studios and satisfactory common room, canteens and dressing rooms. The auditorium is very suitable for full-scale opera rehearsals; experiments in improving it for student productions, which have a rather different requirement, have been encouraging and further improvements are in train. It can never be perfect—after all, few opera houses are that—but it certainly can and will be adequate for its purpose.

It is complained that it is expensive, and that excessive sums have been spent 515 in converting an unsuitable building. It is expensive; and a high-class and broadly-based school for advanced training in opera will always be expensive. The building costs and some of the administration costs are, of course, shared by Covent Garden. But it is essential, if opera is to flourish in this country, that there should be such a school and that it should be good, and the expense of it is fully justified in relation to the whole operatic picture.

It is a matter of opinion whether the close link with an established opera house and company, which has been criticised, is advantageous. But the Bridges Committee have no doubt about the desirability of such a link, and I am bound to say that I have not either. It has been said that students have been required to leave the auditorium when they were about to watch a rehearsal. The fact is that on one occasion a world famous singer was not prepared to rehearse in the presence of an audience—and that will be no matter for surprise to anyone who knows anything at all about prima donnas.

It is said that the prospectus issued was misleading. It woud be naïve in the extreme to expect that the distinguished international figures who agreed to help as specialists in the work of the Centre would be in constant attendance there; but all the resident staff named in the prospectus have been teaching in the Centre, and all the specialists named were in fact interviewed, invited and themselves agreed to go to the Centre at appropriate times. If there are no students specialising in Handel or in Russian music, then the appropriate specialists, of course, are not called in. In the first year Geraint Evans, Sir Donald Wolfit, the Yugoslav producer, Vlado Habanek, Bryan Balkwill, Richard Bonynge and Joan Sutherland will all have worked at the Centre.

Finally, it is complained that there has been a lack of publicity of the right kind. My Lords, I wonder whether the complainants really feel that the publicity that they themselves have been at pains to give is of the right kind: it has certainly retarded the progress of a school that is still in its infancy. I am advised that such internal troubles—and I would emphasise that these are internal domestic 516 troubles in a training school—are endemic in almost every university; but universities are more fortunate in being able to resolve their academic difficulties in a cooler atmosphere, without the glare of publicity and ill-advised public opinion focused upon them. The London Opera Centre will survive these troubles and will recover its health. What it now needs is a period of undisturbed convalescence in which it can settle down to solve its own problems and get on with its work. I am confident that it will make a valuable contribution to opera in this country.

I have felt it necessary to deal with this matter at some length, but I should not like your Lordships to get it out of perspective. Important though the London Opera Centre is, it is no more than a single facet of the broad picture of opera in this country to-day—a picture more encouraging than at any time in the past. Before I leave the field of opera and of Covent Garden, I think I must refer also to the Royal Ballet, which is one of the glories of this country and certainly the equal of any company in the world, and which with its second company takes ballet out to be seen and enjoyed by audiences all over the country. The Ballet Rambert and the Western Theatre Ballet make their own creative contributions, and it is as true of ballet as of opera that this country has never been better served than it is now.

If I may now turn to orchestral music, the great provincial orchestras, the Scottish National Orchestra, the Liverpool Philharmonic, the Hallé, the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra and the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra are all firmly established on a permanent footing and doing valuable work. Since the year of the Report in your Lordships' hands their players have received a substantial but long overdue improvement in salaries, the additional £160,000 a year that is entailed being shared between the Arts Council and the local authorities concerned, so that the Arts Council subventions shown on page 82 of the Report are in the current year higher by about 50 per cent. The recently formed Northern Sinfonia Orchestra continues to make good progress. In all these cases, however, the orchestras are forced by economic pressures into too heavy a programme 517 of concerts, with too little time for rehearsals. If the funds were available to remedy this situation their quality, good as it already is, might be raised; and this is some thing which is highly desirable.

The Metropolitan orchestras present at the present time a more unhappy picture. Of the five major orchestras in London, the B.B.C. has its own rôle, while the London Symphony Orchestra and the London Philharmonic are well established and do excellent work. But the Philharmonia, a proprietary orchestra of very high quality, formed initially for recording work, and Sir Thomas Beecham's old orchestra, the Royal Philharmonic, as it was called, have been in difficulties. Both have done great work in the past, but while it appears that the Philharmonia will be able to manage without Mr. Walter Legge, the future of the other orchestra is obscure. I think I should add that the difficulties do not appear to be primarily economic.

The four independent Metropolitan orchestras (I am not now speaking of the B.B.C.) are not on quite the same permanent footing as the great provincial orchestras. For the most part the players are engaged not on a permanent but on a sessional basis, and many of them do a good deal of outside work and prefer that arrangement. The Arts Council and the L.C.C. do not subsidise these orchestras as such, but they share equally in subsidising their concerts at the Royal Festival Hall. In conjunction with the other local authorities concerned, the Arts Council also subsidises orchestral concerts in the peripheral areas of Greater London. As the public are primarily interested in concerts rather than in orchestras, that system seems logical enough. Latterly, however, in the last year or two, a substantial proportion of the concerts at the Royal Festival Hall have been very poorly attended, and we have found ourselves in the uncomfortable position of subsidising empty seats—not a very rewarding use of public money.

This is a situation that has only recently developed, and we are discussing it with the L.C.C. as a matter of urgency. A careful survey suggests that there may not, in fact, be enough work in the Metropolitan area, taking 518 into account the recording and broadcasting work as well as the requirements for public concerts, to support more than three independent major orchestras. It has been said that in the Arts the somewhat unusual proposition obtains that the supply creates the demand; and, indeed, that proposition is embodied in the whole philosophy on which the Arts Council is founded. But in the last year or two, in the field of the Metropolitan orchestras, things have not worked out in that way. The demand has conspicuously failed to keep pace with the supply. I think the fact is that it is an essential corollary of that proposition that the supply must be of a quality high enough—and for the Metropolis "high enough" means of the highest international standard.

The best approach to a solution seems to be to take what steps we can to raise standards by providing for more rehearsal time and better conditions for the players, and perhaps at the same time to try to attract audiences by lowering the prices, particularly of some of the more highly priced seats. All this we are urgently and anxiously examining. I feel confident that certainly one of the orchestras that have been in difficulties will successfully surmount them, and I have every hope that we shall be able to do something also to help the two fine orchestras which are firmly established to attain still higher standards by the sort of measures that I have outlined. I have spoken at some length of opera and of orchestras. But, of course, in the field of music there is a great deal more with which the Arts Council concerns itself, and I hope that your Lordships will look at the lists of grants and guarantees, on page 82 of the Report, and particularly at the remarkable list, on pages 113 to 123, of works performed by societies affiliated to the National Federation of Music Societies, which gives some idea of the extent of our musical activities and interests.

If we now look at the field of drama, which a year or two ago was a source of anxiety, more especially in the Provinces, here again the picture is a great deal healthier than in the year covered by this Report. The National Theatre Company has been launched with notable success and distinction, and the brilliant 519 Company, led by Sir Laurence Olivier, plays to crowded houses. The Royal Shakespeare Company has gone from strength to strength. The total of the drama subsidies, £335,000 in 1962–63, has been raised in 1964–65 to £534,000, and most of the many provincial companies detailed on pages 108 and 109 of the Report are in better shape. I am happy to be able to assure the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, that the Drama Panel of the Arts Council has effective liaison with all our clients among the provincial repertory companies. We are hoping to be able to pay them more frequent visits, but that is difficult when we keep—and I think rightly—the administrative costs of the Council down to a small proportion of the whole. It is encouraging, too, to think that Mr. Denys Lasdun, the architect for the National Theatre, is at work on the plans for that great project; that new theatres have been completed at Nottingham, at Southampton University and at Eastbourne, and are being built, or are about to be built, at Guildford, Birmingham, Worcester and elsewhere, and also in a number of other universities. The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, is perfectly right in his reference to the Report on Housing the Arts in Great Britain. There is very much more that needs to be done, but at any rate something has started in the last few years in this field.

The extent of the Council's activities in the third of our main fields of interest, that of the visual arts, is shown on pages 110 and 111 of the Report, and your Lordships will see that there were during the year no fewer than 392 showings of Arts Council exhibitions all over the country. In this field, too, there is very much activity outside the Council's own promotions. If your Lordships wish to see one example of this, you should go to the Tate Gallery and look at the great international exhibition of painting and sculpture of the last decade, organised by the Gulbenkian Foundation. It gives an overwhelming impression of the vitality and imagination that are applied to these arts to-day—an exhibition that shows this country to be among those in the forefront, holding a position in painting that it has never held since the eighteenth century (if, indeed, it held it then); and in sculpture a pre-eminent position that it never began to approach until the last two decades. It is good to think that 520 the new galleries that the L.C.C. are building on the South Bank to house such loan exhibitions have now been started and are expected to be completed the year after next.

My Lords, all this—and much else that I have not the time to speak of to-day: poetry and festivals, art centres and art clubs—goes to make up a picture of the state of the Arts in this country that in general is healthier and more lively than it has ever been. It is a condition that is due to the work of many people and many organisations, and one that the Arts Council, which has played some part in bringing it about, finds rewarding. It is, of course, a matter for rejoicing but not for complacency. We may look forward into the future with some confidence, but always with the determination not to relax our efforts but rather to redouble them.

The noble Earl, Lord Longford, spoke about literature and made an eloquent plea for authors. I should certainly not attempt to question the view that literature is one of the fine arts. It is; but it has always been held by the Arts Council to be one that is not so necessitous financially as the others of which I have spoken, and better able to look after itself. Of course, if the Government were to double the Arts Council grant we should be very happy to consider what we could do in the direction that the noble Earl has suggested.

Finance is one of the governing factors. On the whole we have at the Arts Council, certainly in recent years —my own experience there goes back only four years—been treated with sympathetic understanding and with a substantial measure of generosity by the Treasury. The total of the Arts Council grant in 1960–61 was £1½ million; in 1964–65 it is £3,205,000; so it has been doubled in four years. It is not enough, of course; if we had more we could do more with it. It is indeed a perpetual astonishment to me how much is done with a total sum that is, after all, insignificantly small in the context of the national finances. What is it?—£700 million for science, against £13 million for the Arts, of which the Arts Council gets £3 million. There is a lot of leeway to make up. 521 This is the second year of the new arrangement by which the Arts Council grant—apart from that for Covent Garden, which rests on a separate formula —is no longer on a year-to-year hand-to-mouth basis. We now have a triennial basis with each year a 10 per cent. escalation, and can attempt to see and to plan a little way into the future. On the whole this new basis is a great improvement, and I hope that some such system may be continued. But in view of the leeway and the rate of future growth necessary if a balance is to be maintained, the rate of escalation should be much higher for the next triennium and there should be some provision for additional moneys for new kinds of activity as they arise. Art in the modern world is very much a growth activity, and the guaranteed grant ought to be regarded as a floor and not as a ceiling.

Covent Garden, which received in 1962–63 £690,000, this year receives £1,055,000; I think rather more than the noble Lord, Lord Aukland, supposed. Some people who are unfortunate enough not to be able to enjoy opera say that this is too large a share of the whole, but it is in fact a separate allocation based on a formula by which the Treasury provide 17s. 6d. for every £1 taken at the box office. The resulting figure is this year inflated by the need to renew the electrical wiring and to carry out other major maintenance work in a building now more than a hundred years old. The figure is indeed a large proportion of the total Arts Council grant, but Covent Garden certainly provides value for the money—indeed, provides better value at lower cost to public funds than most national opera companies elsewhere; and it may be some little consolation to those who think the money might be better applied elsewhere to know that a reduction in the Covent Garden allocation would not, in fact, release one penny more for any other Arts Council activity.

As to Treasury control, your Lordships may remember that I took exception to the Robbins proposals to transfer the administration of the Arts to a Minister of Arts and Science. I am bound to say that when I heard members of another place complaining recently of their extreme difficulty in trying to affect the policy of the Arts Council, in that their only avenue is through the Treasury, I felt that our opposition to the Robbins 522 proposals had been very well founded. The Arts Council make no pretension to infallibility, and we will always consider representations from Members of either House, or indeed by the public at large. But that is a very different thing from having the detail of our policy dictated by politicians and subjected to Ministerial interference, which, I am convinced, would quickly prove fatal to any effective administration of the living Arts.

The Treasury is, of course, not the only source of funds to help the living Arts. Local authorities have powers of patronage on a considerable scale and are beginning to take a much wider interest in these matters. Some few are already exemplary, and the Institute of Municipal Entertainments Conference is taking a helpful lead. Big business, too, begins to recognise its opportunities for patronage, and the Art Advisory Council recently set up by the Institute of Directors to advise its members on patronage of the Arts is something which is very much to be welcomed. I hope it may grow and prosper, helped forward by the persuasive powers of Sir William Emrys Williams.

My Lords, I fear that I have spoken for longer than I had intended. I have been anxious to show, and I hope I have succeeded in showing, your Lordships that there has been substantial progress in the understanding and practice of the Arts in this country even since the year that is recorded in the Report in your hands; and although there are inevitably one or two aspects of the whole picture that give ground for concern—and have felt it necessary to deal with them at some length—they form but a small part of the whole. The broad picture is one of progress and wellbeing. It is our determination to continue and accelerate that progress in every way possible.

§ LORD AMULREE

My Lords, there are two remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, in the interesting speech with which he opened this debate on which I should like briefly to comment. The first is that I was very pleased indeed—and here I agree with him entirely —to hear what he said about the interest of young people in the Arts to-day. One is told a great deal about the wrong things but very little about the right things the young do, and it was a great 523 pleasure to me when the noble Lord said something in that direction in the speech with which he opened the debate. At the present time, so far as I know, more young people are applying for places in Arts schools than can possibly get in. In all sorts of ways one finds the young taking a very active interest in the Arts of the country.

The second remark on which I wish to comment—and it is one on which I do not agree with the noble Lord—is his statement that he thought it might be quite reasonable that the provision of money for the Arts should take second place to money for other important activities. I think he mentioned road building. I do not agree with him there. I think that money for the Arts is one thing which is extremely important, and I cannot see why it should take second place to money for any other form of activity in the country.

§ LORD AUCKLAND

My Lords, I should like to interrupt the noble Lord to clear up that point while it is fresh in my mind. What I meant was that road building and hospitals are essentials, but the Arts are not an essential, in that sense. It is in that context that I made those comments.

§ LORD AMULREE

I must thank the noble Lord for what lie has said, but I am bound to say that he has not convinced me and I do not agree with him at all. We must differ on that point.

My Lords, there are two parts of the Report of the Arts Council to which I should like briefly to refer. The first is the part which deals with opera in this country, and here, I think, one can have nothing but praise for the work which the Arts Council do. Where I think they are so sensible in their programmes is that they do not subsidise only works which have been given many times before, but take a special interest in contributing to the production of works which normally would not be heard: works which give a great deal of pleasure to people who, like myself, enjoy going to hear works which they do not normally hear. I am bound to say that the performances they subsidise seem to me to be of very high standard. That is something for which one should be very grateful to the Arts Council. I would especially mention 524 the subsidy given to the Festival of St. Pancras, an event which has occurred every year for a number of years (I do not remember just how many), which is good evidence of what that excellent Council have done in the past, and I hope that now that it has been transmogrified into the Camden Council they will continue to do the same thing in the future. That is an example of a local authority going into the Arts in a proper way, with a certain amount of assistance from the Arts Council. I think that the combination of the two is admirable and gives great pleasure to a large number of people. I am pleased to see that performances in St. Pancras' Town Hall are now being played to capacity. Whereas for a long time they did not get a full house, for the last two years I have been there, and the place has been completely filled. I think that is a very encouraging sign.

Another point to which I was going to refer, though I do not need to now, because the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, has referred to it, is the trouble about the Opera Centre. The noble Lord has given a detailed explanation of the unfortunate difficulties there, and I feel that it is now better that it should be dealt with as a private and domestic matter rather than as something discussed too much in public. Talking rather generally about that (and I say what I do in no sense of criticism of the Arts Council), it seems to me that some of the singers and teachers of opera in the country—and, apart from those which receive a subsidy from the Arts Council, there are not many bodies that teach and train people in opera—do wonder whether the patronage of the Arts Council may be getting a little large and in time might, as tends to occur with big bodies, tend to stifle freedom. I do not think it is so, but that is a point of view that has been expressed to me by one or two singers and teachers. I have tried to soothe them and calm them down. But I feel that this is something in which the Arts Council could do much in the way of public relations to show that that kind of fear is not going to be justified. People, however, have said that this is what happens; one saw the Carl Rosa opera company die: I admit that went a long time ago, and I am not going into that controversy now. But that is 525 one of the dangers which can occur when there is a good deal of money available from a body like the Arts Council, and I am very pleased to know that the Arts Council realise it and will take steps to stop people from saying things that are not really justified.

The other matter I want to mention—and here again the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, has rather taken a good deal of my argument from me—is the question of the visual arts, or painting. At the present time in London we suffer the appalling disadvantage that there is nowhere to show a new exhibition of pictures The noble Lord said that he thought the new gallery on the South Bank would be open in a year or possibly two. I very much hope that that will be true, and I trust that the Arts Council, with the great power and prestige they have, will see that the L.C.C. do not fall down on the promise to get the gallery open. So frequently, at the present time, when one of our picture galleries wants to give a special show of a collection the permanent exhibition has to be taken down.

The noble Lord referred to the Gulbenkian exhibition at the Tate Gallery. That is a very big exhibition, in size, and that means that a large number of permanent exhibits have had to be taken down. One has seen this happen again in the Victoria and Albert Museum; one has seen it even worse in the National Gallery, where, about two years ago, there was shown a very fine exhibition from Zürich. It belonged to a collector called Mr. Buhrle and it had been shown in Edinburgh, at the Festival. When the exhibition came down to London it was shown at the National Gallery, and the real drawback was that, although it was a first-class exhibition of painting, there was nothing there that we could not equal among the national collections and among the Courtauld Collection of the London University. But while the Buhrle collection was being shown a number of rooms at the National Gallery—three—which normally show Italian primitives had to be shut down and those pictures stored away for several months. That, I trust, is something from which we shall not have to suffer much more.

I begin to have doubts about the South Bank altogether. At present, the South Bank works quite well with the 526 Festival Hall—though I have certain criticisms, which I shall mention in a moment; but there is plenty of room for people to park their cars. Will the same thing still occur when the Festival Hall is there, when the Gallery is there, when the National Theatre is there? Will there be room for people to park their cars? Because if people cannot park their cars they will not go to the Festival Hall, the theatre or the gallery. Car parking seems to them to be an enormously important thing.

The second thing one has to be sure about is that there is somewhere for people to go and get a meal when they have been to their concert or exhibition or theatre. At the present time one can dine at the Festival Hall, rather badly, at seven o'clock, before the concert starts; but one can get nothing at all at ten o'clock, which is just the time one wants a meal. And here, it seems to me, is a real tragedy. One has one of the most attractive sites in the whole of London for eating, a big restaurant overlooking the Thames, and the L.C.C. seem to have done nothing at all to make it an attractive restaurant for people who perhaps want to spend a certain amount of money on their meal, to make part of it an expensive and good restaurant, rather than all a cheap and bad restaurant. I am sure that if the aim is to attract people to come to the South Bank it will be necessary to do a great deal to make their journey there agreeable. It is a very strange thing that, for quite a number of Londoners, to make the journey across the Thames to the South Side is like going to some new country entirely: and it has got to be made easy for them to go, and they have got to have facilities when they get there. Although that is not the direct responsibility of the Arts Council, I am sure—because they are a popular body and they have a great deal of prestige and influence—that they could do a lot to ensure that these amenities about which I have spoken are provided.

There is one more matter to which I should like to refer, and that is to hope that the Arts Council will be able to continue to give us the very fine exhibitions of paintings which they have contributed to the Edinburgh Festival. That has always seemed to me to be one of the most important parts of the Festival. But if there is to be an exhibition of 527 painting at Edinburgh there must be certain criteria: it must be a really first-class exhibition and do complete justice to the greatness of the painter. That is what has occurred in the past. At the same time, the exhibition must be good enough to encourage people to go, and to pay to go, to see it. I hope that the Arts Council will not allow themselves to waver from the high ideal and standard which they have set for themselves in the past. I should like just to add that, although in some ways I may appear to be rather critical of the Arts Council, I would far rather that they continued as they are now than that they should become a Ministry of Fine Arts. If that were to happen, I am sure that it would be the end of a great deal that I admire and enjoy in this country at the present time.

§ BARONESS GAITSKELL

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for initiating this debate and for his most careful speech. I am breaking my three months' silence—a period of silence which I felt was desirable as part of my apprenticeship in this House—and I should like to take this opportunity of thanking your Lordships for the warm welcome you have given me. It has been most heart-warming. I speak with some diffidence, and in a general way, because I cannot pretend that my interest in the Arts is matched by any special knowledge. We all have views about the Arts, and it is sometimes useful to subject these views to a more careful scrutiny, and in this the Report of the Arts Council gives us an idea of what we are getting for our money.

First, let us take a glance—not a world tour—at a few other countries. I take them at random. I am not taking the nine who have spent more on the Arts than we do. I have taken just a few. Let us examine their attitude to the Arts, because it is this attitude which explains the generosity or the meanness of the approach to them. The French have always esteemed and favoured the Arts. In fact, France has always regarded herself as mistress of the Arts in Europe. Subsidies are high there, and although there is a Minister of Culture, I think they get by, and he does not seem to have had an inhibiting effect on their freedom of criticism.

528 The Italians, it is said, sing all day and go to the opera at night. The Arts are a great pleasure to them, and they are prepared to pay for their pleasure. The State grant to their national opera, music and theatres is roughly over £4 million. The letter which I have from the Italian Embassy which embodied those figures included a sentence which I should like to quote: The greatest part in the Italian musical life is played by the subscribers, who can be called the backbone of all box offices and who provide some measure of stability to the whole business of music-making. I hope the time will come when we shall be able to say the same thing about our audiences. The West Germans organise their culture in a big way and spend in all £39 million on the Arts, getting their funds from the Federal State and municipal and local government authorities. The regional authorities actually give £15 million of aid to the theatres. These subsidies amount to 5s. per head of the population. Unbroken production and new building is thus made possible. Cultural centres can be planned for the drama, music and painting under one roof. I obtained this information from a West German leaflet, and in it there was one small voice of criticism. It is sometimes said there that, because of the heavy subsidies, the actors are not actors but performing civil servants. Can you imagine with what envy the director of a company like our Royal Shakespeare Company looks at figures like these and compares them with the aid it receives? There is not one farthing on the rates for the Arts in Stratford. A town which profits so much from this theatre should surely give a token amount of aid.

The Austrians take the Arts as part of everyday life. It is as natural for them to go to the opera as to go out to dinner, and they do not begrudge their subsidies. Vienna gives £3½ million to the two State opera houses, and the two State theatres. The Austrian trade unions have a theatre of their own. With a population of 7 million they give the same aid to the Arts as the Arts Council to the whole of Great Britain. I am sure that they would find it most difficult to understand the Manchester City councillor who opposed a second grant of £11,000 for the Hallé Orchestra because he felt it would be better spent on housing for the old people. I think the Austrians would have wanted music for the old people, too. 529 And now we come to ourselves, and what we feel about culture generally. The British are always faintly apologetic about the Arts, and regard them as a kind of highbrow sport, and a rather expensive one at that. This feeling has not been dispelled by some of our younger painters and dramatists, whose works a large section of the public regard as a kind of shock treatment to which they will not submit. However, in the last decade or so there has been a change in their attitude to painting, because no longer is a picture a beautiful and valuable object in itself, but it has been upgraded. It has become an investment—a word which is music to British ears. In fact, the prices of pictures and other works of art are as sensitive a barometer of national prosperity as are the prices of shares on the Stock Exchange.

Now I turn to the Arts Council itself, and to its Report called Ends and Means. The Council is a remarkable organisation, as I discovered rather late in life—virtually a voluntary body, as all the panels of the best experts in the country give their work for nothing. This, more than anything else, guarantees an independence of judgment. Looking down the lists of cultural organisations which could not even exist without the aid they receive from the Arts Council, one can only conclude that it does a fine job. Experts might quibble about the exact way the money is apportioned, but the facts remain. The list of works performed in music, drama and literature, and the number of art exhibitions held—all these activities are most impressive. The aim of the Council to develop a greater knowledge, understanding and practice of the fine arts is achieved within the limits of the money available. Another aim is: to improve the standards of execution of the fine arts. I think the standards obtained are high. But when we come to the third aim—namely, to increase the accessibility of the fine arts to the public", it is another matter. This they cannot do alone and they have a long way to go.

The text of the Report—and I hope I shall be forgiven for saying this—really has very little bite in it. In welcoming the Treasury's agreement to 530 fix in advance the amount of the Council's grant for the years 1964–65 and 1965–66 (a very important innovation for them), it has this to say: This will deprive us of some of the speculative excitement of annual budgeting in an expanding economy and it imposes certain limits on the exercise of creative imagination. I suggest that there would be no limit on the creative imagination with a bit more cash in the kitty.

§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

§ BARONESS GAITSKELL

The creative imagination could flower and flourish on a grant from the Treasury of, let us say, £5 million—and £5 million is not too much to ask from any Government in this country for the Arts.

When dealing with the relationship between the Arts Council and the Government the Report frowns on the idea of having a Minister of Culture, and I add my own frown to theirs. I agree. But the present relationship is described as a case of private enterprise and, I quote, "ridden on the snaffle". I assume that this is an equine analogy. It is Derby Day and—I am not going to be done out of my quip—I am glad that some noble Lords have put the Arts Council before the horse, and perhaps one of them will explain this phrase to me afterwards.

The whole problem of patronage, which is the present dilemma affecting the Arts, is handled with kid gloves. The local authorities are let down too lightly by the Arts Council Report, especially as one of the aims of the Council is to advise and co-operate with them. Some local authorities face up to their responsibility and make great efforts to promote the Arts, though over the country as a whole, as has been said so often, while empowered to spend up to a 6d. rate, they spend a fraction of 1d. This means £3 million instead of £50 million. The Greater London Council, the old London County Council, is the exception to this and stands out as the most generous patron of them all. Perhaps the most important part that the local authorities have to play, as the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, has said, is in housing the Arts. We have not enough theatres or concert halls or art galleries in this country. Big business, the trade unions and even the 531 magnanimous millionaire—all these can join to become the new patrons of the Arts.

It should be as usual to see works of art in large stores, banks, offices, indeed all the places where people work and come together, as in churches and cathedrals. Whenever I go into Sanderson's, the wallpaper manufacturers, I never fail to be struck by the beauty of a large, modern stained-glass window by John Piper which faces you as you go up the stairs. Until a wider patronage is involved the Arts Council will be frustrated in its efforts to make the Fine Arts more accessible to the public. The responsibility for progress here lies with the local authorities. What is the use of our spending (I believe Lord Auckland asked this question) one-fifth of the £1,000 million on education in teaching our children to appreciate the Arts if the opportunities for continuing this are so limited afterwards?

I do not wish to give glib explanations for the hooliganism of a small section of our young people. However, parents, teachers and psychologists know that the aggressive energy and exhibitionism in the young is very strong. They know that boredom forces these into destructive channels and that the Arts can be a powerful instrument for guiding these energies into more pleasurable and creative activities. We speak increasingly of the life of leisure that lies ahead, though for some of us it seems rather like a mirage. What are we going to do with all this leisure? We have not enough sun just to idle away our time. We are condemned by our climate, if by no other considerations, to engage in pursuits which make our lives fuller and more interesting, and in this an understanding of the Arts has a very great part to play, so we should be prepared to give them much more support than we do.

I come nearly to the end of my remarks. It is known that some animals are endowed with a keener sense of sight and hearing than human beings are. This, in effect, is what an education and knowledge of the Arts does for us: it sharpens our senses and our perception. We can literally see and hear better. Psychology and philosophy can never by themselves replace literature or the 532 drama in explaining the mystery of the human personality. I come again to the Manchester City councillor who stated that there were only a very small number of people who appreciated good music, as if it were a fact for all time. Personally, I do not agree with him. There is a fund of appreciation in this country, which is untapped and uneducated, of which the Arts Council has skimmed only the surface. Unaided it cannot do more. When the rest of the community play their part leisure will present no problems and there will be no limit to the pleasure we shall be able to derive from the Arts.

§ THE EARL OF DROGHEDA

My Lords, I regard it as a great honour indeed that it falls to my lot to be the first to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, upon her most moving maiden speech. Everyone suffered with her at the time of Hugh Gaitskell's tragic illness and death, when she bore herself with such tremendous dignity in her sorrow. She is deeply loved on all sides and adds great distinction to your Lordships' House. I am bound to say, I am prejudiced, because what she said was very much in my own interest; but I think she realised, from the reception accorded to her, that she made a very strong impression. I hope that now she has broken the ice she will be heard here on many occasions and on many subjects. She certainly should not follow my terrible example in that respect.

On the last occasion your Lordships debated what seems to be becoming Lord Auckland's annual Motion on the Arts, I was unable to be present, but as I am Chairman of Covent Garden I hope I may say a few words to-day. May I first of all thank Lord Auckland for his kind reference to myself, which I much appreciate? Covent Garden is the largest single receiver of funds from the Arts Council. During the year to March 31st, 1963, we received about £700,000, and last year we received rather more than that. While this is much less than is received by a number of opera houses on the Continent, it is undoubtedly a large sum of money, and I feel that I must pay a tribute to the understanding spirit shown by successive Chancellors of the Exchequer and their senior officials and 533 also by the Arts Council to Covent Garden.

I am afraid that our needs are bound to go on growing. We are responsible at Covent Garden not only for the presentation of grand opera, but also for the two companies of the Royal Ballet. One of these companies, as your Lordships know, normally appears at the Royal Opera House, but it has also undertaken several major tours of the United States and it is going to undertake another one next year. It also made one very successful visit to the Soviet Union in 1961, and I hope we may be going back there again in two or three years' time. The other Ballet Company is the so-called touring section of the Royal Ballet, which spends many weeks of the year touring the Provinces and the Continent or elsewhere abroad. This is a gallant and most hardworking band for whose devoted spirit no praise can be too high, for they work very long hours in most difficult conditions, and I consider they do great service.

I believe that our ballet and our opera have now attained a very high level of excellence by the most exacting international standards, and this is obviously as it should be. But this standard cannot be achieved or maintained on the cheap. There used to be people who said that those who wanted opera and ballet should pay for it, but lately we have not heard very much of that, and even the Daily Express has been pretty silent. I believe there are now very few people who do not think that these are Arts which ought to be encouraged. It is a simple fact that without Government support admission prices would have to be doubled, and that would surely have a disastrous effect on attendances. We have, in fact, increased our prices progressively over the years. They now stand at about twice what they did in 1946, and they will go up again this autumn.

But all our experience is that you cannot recover all increases in costs by putting up your seat prices. I am afraid our experience has also shown that you cannot avoid increases in costs. About three-quarters of all the outgoings at Covent Garden, and also at Sadler's Wells, are represented by direct wage and salary payments which are largely controlled by union agreements, and as wage rates go up elsewhere so the wages paid by Covent Garden must go up. The 534 scope for higher productivity is distinctly limited; indeed, for performing artists to give their best they should really perform less and rehearse more. So one might say that our productivity, in one definition of the word, should go down. Therefore I do not think our costs can be expected to do anything but rise.

Apart from this particular consideration, there are other reasons why the costs of running Covent Garden should be allowed to rise, for at present there are a great many amenities which our theatre lacks. These are not only amenities for the public, but also for the artists. We are seriously short of rehearsal space near the theatre, we can store only a small part of the scenery on the premises—the bulk of it is at Maidstone—the dressing rooms are poor, the stage lacks depth and breadth, catering is difficult, and so on.

It so happens that an opportunity is going to present itself to put some of these matters right. The Covent Garden market will be moved away during the course of the next five or six years. Grandiose schemes are being put forward for the future development of the market area. I agree that there should be some sort of comprehensive plan for the area, but I beg that nothing should be done which in any way interferes with, or delays, the satisfaction of the needs of the Royal Opera House, which are urgent and pressing; for, if the opportunity is missed now, goodness knows when it will recur. It can recur only if we get a new opera house and I do not think that anybody wants us to have that—except possibly myself, and there I seem to be in a minority of one—because there is sentiment attached to the present opera house, the acoustics are very good, and, in any case, the Treasury are about to finance a new home for Sadler's Wells on the South Bank.

Therefore, I should like to ask the noble Earl who is going to reply to this debate, whether he will make a little more precise the undertaking which was given by the noble Earl, Lord Waldegrave, when your Lordships debated the Bill setting up the Covent Garden Market Authority three years ago. Lord Waldegrave then stated that when the market was replanned he hoped that the opera house would get the rehearsal rooms it so badly needed. At that time the likelihood was that the market would 535 be redeveloped in its present area. Now, with its removal in prospect, I should like to be able to feel that the Government are still aware of our needs and agree that financial assistance should be forthcoming to enable these to be met, because it is no good their agreeing that the needs are urgent without giving some sort of an undertaking that money will be provided.

There is one other matter affecting Covent Garden to which I should like to refer. It affects, in fact, many of the institutions supported by the Arts Council. I refer to the question of policy with regard to the sending of British artistic attractions—a terrible phrase, that—overseas. Under existing arrangements the Arts Council is concerned only with presentations in this country. When it is a question of an overseas tour it is either undertaken as a straightforward commercial operation, which is only seldom possible, or else undertaken with the help of a grant or guarantee from the British Council. There is, in fact, a third method, but it practically never happens. One example is when our opera company went recently to Lisbon to give two performances of Benjamin Britten's Midsummer Night's Dream, and this was entirely financed by the Gulbenkian Foundation; but that was a very special occasion.

I have a high regard for the work of the British Council, and I think they have been very unfairly abused in their time, but I do not believe that their operations in the field of the Arts are adequate. They receive a very substantial sum from public funds, but it is nearly all devoted to education. I think the amount made available for sending artistic attractions abroad is pretty much a residual item. I believe that the British Council are largely guided by the recommendations of a document called the Drogheda Report. This is the Report of a Committee which was in fact presided over by my father, and I absolutely dissociate myself from it. I think it dealt very summarily with the Arts. All one can say is that it appeared ten years ago, and possibly to-day the Committee might report differently.

Certainly, the efforts made by all the leading companies in the world to send 536 their best artistic attractions abroad have grown enormously, and I have no doubt that when, for instance, the Royal Ballet Company, or the Royal Shakespeare Theatre Company, or one of our leading orchestras goes abroad, it does an immense amount of good for the prestige of this country, and it does it at relatively small cost. But we must send the best and we must send it in style. It is no good their arriving on a tourist plane in the middle of the night, and nobody in the country knowing they are there. When we spend hundreds of millions of pounds on weapons to defend ourselves, it seems to me that we are justified in also spending a few hundred thousand pounds in an effort to make people look a little more kindlily on us.

I believe that the total amount of money expended for this purpose is at present far too low. I think that in the year to March, 1963, the British Council spent about £107,000 under this heading, and travel and hotel accommodation for one orchestral tour could make a big dent in that sum. During the year to last March the sum they spent was a good deal higher, but this was due, I think, chiefly to Mr. Shakespeare. I believe that for the current year the figure will be in the region of £175,000.

I should like to suggest to Ministers that they lay down a target of, say, half a million pounds a year for spending under this heading, and that there should be some sort of joint Arts Council—British Council Committee, with Foreign Office and Commonwealth Relations Office representation thereon, possibly with an independent chairman: and that it should be the job of this committee to draw up a plan for the next two or three years and to keep it under regular review. This would really be an immense help to the various organisations concerned with overseas touring, and I am certain that an increase in the sum of money spent under this heading would be very well worth while. At present, the arrangements are haphazard, some countries being constantly visited and others hardly ever at all. I do urge that the Government should give greater thought to this question.

Finally, I should like to pay tribute to two outstanding figures in the world of the Arts, who have retired from the active scene during the past year. First 537 of all, Sir William Emrys Williams, Secretary-General of the Arts Council from 1951 to 1963–a fine Lancastrian figure who, from very humble beginnings, has had a most distinguished career and who, although he has retired from his position with the Arts Council, is still, I am happy to say, extremely active and still has a great deal to contribute in the field which he has very much made his own. Secondly, Dame Ninette de Valois, the creator of the Royal Ballet, to whom people all over the world are heavily in debt. She is without question one of the great women of our generation. I am proud to have been associated with her at Covent Garden, and I am happy to know that she is going to go on devoting so much time to the teaching of pupils at the Royal Ballet School so that her ballet company can have its future assured.

§ LORD WILLIS

My Lords, I, too, should like to join in the congratulations expressed to my noble friend Lady Gaitskell for a moving, courageous and quite brilliant speech. I feel a little presumptuous in saying that, since we both "entered school" together, but I want sincerely to congratulate her upon the way she spoke. I would also thank the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, not only for putting down this Motion but also for widening it in such a way as to enable us to talk both about the Arts Council Report and about the Arts generally. In my remarks I propose to concentrate particularly on two aspects: the position of the theatre and the position of the novelist.

First as to the theatre, which has been variously described, and often described, as "the fabulous invalid". From time to time in the last 500 years there have been reports of its imminent death. In the last fifty years we were told successively that the silent cinema would kill it; that the radio would kill it; that the talking film would kill it; and, finally, that television would kill it. But still, with a tremendous and formidable tenacity, the theatre not only clings on but seems to be fighting back. The reports of its death have been premature; and, even if it is not restored to full health, it is certainly showing marked signs of recovery. That it is doing so is, I believe, due to two factors: first, the devoted and dedicated work of indi- 538 viduals and groups who have rallied public opinion and public support, as we have seen in Chichester, Glasgow, Nottingham and so forth; and, secondly, the increased support received from the Government, through the Arts Council, and from civic authorities.

If we look at the Arts Council figures we can see how narrow, how desperate, is the margin of survival, and therefore how valid is this appeal for more money. Take Birmingham, where that wonderful theatre was started by the devoted work of Sir Barry Jackson, who spent both his life and his fortune creating a theatre for his own town. In the 1962–63 Report which is under consideration it is shown that the loss on the year was £20,000. The Arts Council grant and the civic grant came to £19,000 altogether, so they emerged in that year with a loss of £1,000, which, but for the grants, would have been a loss of £20,000. In Coventry, for the Belgrade Theatre the Arts Council grant was £14,000 and the civic grant was £6,750, a total of £20,750. The loss on the year was £22,200. So the net loss, again, was nearly £1,500. This is how narrow the margin is: this is the thread that is holding our theatres up.

I am associated with the Bromley Theatre. Up to the time of the heavy winter that we had last year, after seven years of patient effort we had built up reserves of about £3,000 in the bank. During that bad winter we lost not only that £3,000 but another £4,000. Seven years' work was wiped out by a few weeks of bad weather, and but for an immediate rescue operation from the Arts Council and some splendid help from the local authority we should have been right out of business. The theatre would have closed: there was no alternative.

The pattern outside London, and, to some extent, in London, too, is that the theatre which is run on commercial lines and run for a profit is dying. In its place, slowly—not quickly enough, but still coming—is a network of virile civic theatres with far higher artistic standards than existed formerly. I think the good is replacing the bad. We may have fewer theatres, but I think they are better. This is right and this is good, because we have now the recognition that the theatre is a service to the community. There is a school of thought 539 represented by the Manchester councillor mentioned by my noble friend Baroness Gaitskell. I use the term "a school of