GOVERNMENT ENCOURAGEMENT OF SPORT

§ THE MARQUESS OF EXETER

My Lords, it is only on very rare occasions that I inflict a speech on your Lordships, but it so happens that a strange combination of length of leg and shallowness of joint and a prod from fate took me at a fairly young age into the 302 athletics world, and it is a short step from being an athlete oneself to becoming engaged in the administration of athletics, which I have been for some thirty years now. I should like to preface what I am going to say by paying a tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, not only for her excellent and well-informed speech to which we have just listened, but also because this is no flash in the pan. She has dedicated a lot of her life to trying to help the cause of amateur sport, and not least in that field, for she has continually brought up the problems and responsibilities of the community before both Houses of Parliament.

As many noble Lords will know, there are four main comprehensive bodies engaged in the administration of sport. First of all, there is the National Playing Fields Association, and my noble friend Lord Luke, with the authority that he has in that organisation, will no doubt be telling us about that presently and stating the problems and how he thinks they should be solved. There is the Central Council, for whom the noble Lady plays an active part, which have a very wide sphere of responsibility and cover all the recreational sides of sport and recreation. They are the godfather to a number of the smaller federations as well; and for the larger ones, with their regional organisation, often provide the administration for a course in an area where that particular governing body is not particularly strong. Then there are, too, the various bodies which go to make up what used to be called the Empire Games but are now known as the Commonwealth Games: the Councils for England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Jersey and the Isle of Man.

Finally, there is the British Olympic Association, which, as you will understand by its name, is essentially engaged in raising the necessary money for transporting, equipping and housing our teams at this greatest international festival which may take place anywhere in the world, every four years, the Olympic Games. But it has another sphere of activity, too. There are some thirty sports governing bodies affiliated to it, and it is, therefore, a very useful forum for discussing such matters which affect competitive sport so far as all the national federations are concerned; and 303 it is rather of this British Olympic side that I should like to speak to your Lordships this afternoon because that is the subject on which I have had most experience. I have been chairman of the Council for some 27 years, and I feel that in this very large canvas which this problem of sport and recreation covers, this afternoon one should pick out one particular part and paint it in with its background, as the noble Baroness has already done in a large field, and has done far better than I could possibly have done. But there is one field in which I have had this special experience, that is, in the field of competitive sport.

I think it would perhaps be easiest if I were to give you what is the organisation in the world because, unbeknown to most people, there is an enormous and gigantic organisation for amateur sport which has grown up almost unnoticed. The days when in one country you could without repercussions change the rules, whether technical or whether of eligibility or of amateurism, have gone. Those days are past for all the great sports. We are part of something very much larger. In every country there is a national governing body in sport and those bodies owe an allegiance to the International Federation. Running parallel to that, we have the International Olympic Committee, to whom the Olympic Games belong; and below that the national Olympic committees, like the British Olympic Association; and on those committees the governing bodies of sport, under the I.O.C. rules, must have a controlling vote. To show the size of these organisations, there are no fewer than 100 national Olympic committees affiliated to the International Olympic Committee. In the sports, if I may take my own federation of which I am President, in the International Amateur Athletic Federation, we have 126 member countries; and there are many other great international federations with almost as many members. So you have here, literally in every country, a State within a State, and although World Government is, in politics, at this stage of history, a pipedream, it is an accomplished fact in the world of amateur sport.

We have our problems in this field, and I propose first to say on what this 304 enormous edifice is built. It is built, in the words of Dr. Zauli of Italy, who has just written a most interesting paper on the basis of amateur sport, on what he calls (and forgive my pronunciation) homo ludens. This is, that in fact from time immemorial, from the very start of man, there has always been a desire and an urge in all men to compete, to pit their strength, their dexterity and their skill against another man or even against their own best performance and thereby put themselves to a lot of discomfort and inconvenience in their training, and to do it for no material reward. That is what homo ludens is and, if I might interperse here, the difference between amateurism and professionalism, of which one hears so much argument, is basically really that. In the one case a man quite honourably decides that sport is going to be the vehicle to earn his livelihood and the material things of life, exactly as another man may go into the assembly line of a motor car factory or may become a bank clerk. But the moment that happens no longer is he in the same category as homo ludens.

In this struggle to maintain and build this great edifice we get attacks from two quarters. The first one is on the commercial side. There is always, in certain countries, an endeavour by those who are selling commercial goods to try to tempt the homo ludens to take money, to advertise some type of goods against some other type of goods. In this country we are most fortunate in that a very large number of newspapers, in fact almost all the national newspapers, have at one time or another backed international athletic meetings, swimming meetings and the like, and if they lose money they pay, and if they make money they hand it over to the governing body. But this is not always so in some other countries. There are leading competitors there whom the newspapers try to tempt to write articles and who thereby endanger their homo ludens position. And why do they do it? Not for the athletes, but so as to sell more newspapers.

So it is, too, that we have another attack in the field of what is called athletics scholarships which are given in the United States to-day; scholarships which are awarded not on mental ability but purely and simply on whether people are good at sport. These scholarships are 305 not given by the great universities, but by the smaller ones to try to increase their athletic prestige and that, incidentally, of the coach. I have spoken to people who have been through these courses and they say that academically it has done them no good at all; they have really been in the nature of gladiators for raising the athletic prestige of the university. In other countries—but not here, I am happy to say—sometimes there are also promoters who will do all they can to get the top athletes in order that the gate may be more satisfactory. I am not going to dwell on this subject any longer, but there is quite a clear field which is professional and another which is amateur, and there is a big no-man's land between. And I have no doubt at all that the argument on that will be going on by the time, as perhaps I may say in this debate, that I have been called to my last Olympic Games.

But there is another attack to which the noble Lady has referred to which I should like to refer as well, and that is the political attack, of which we have had a particularly bad year this year. I have now been for some thirty years a member of the International Olympics Committee and in that time have seen in different parts of the world a number of dictators spring up, a number of Parties with strong ideologies, all of which started by saying that sport and politics were quite indivisible. Your Lordships will note that it is the politicians, and not the athletes, who say that. They do not even dent the great federation. But the curious thing is that, as the years go by, and they become more sure of themselves politically, that cry is muted and finally disappears. The reason for this is that they start to realise there is a great value in having international amateur sport non-political, and that it achieves several things which they want.

It provides, of course, pleasure and recreation for competitors and spectators alike. It develops those characteristics which are needed in all our citizenry, in the training, self-denial; mastery of self; cheerfulness in defeat; modesty in victory; and—perhaps even more important—the gift of developing those characteristics which make people get on with their fellow men. Because there is a fellowship in sport; and in this fellowship, perhaps more than in any other activity, somebody who tries to be "the 306 cat who walks by himself" and takes no interest in anybody else is not going to find any great happiness. With their athletes going abroad too, and visiting other parts of the world, and meeting other athletes, there is an immense amount of good will engendered; and that is not confined to the people who meet each other. The image which goes back to other countries is most important, because it is impossible for everybody to meet everybody, and this image can do a great deal to make friends in other parts of the world. It is for these reasons, in the long run, in practically all cases I can think of, that they settle down and become good members of these international federations.

We have our problems at the moment. One tragic one was when China resigned from most of the international federations and all those which recognised Formosa about a year ago. It was a little difficult to follow, because in my own international federation in Melbourne in 1956, where we are not political, but deal with situations factually, the Peking association was recognised as being China; but equally we were not prepared to disenfranchise a country of 9 million people in Formosa or Taiwan. They remain in, not as China but as the geographical area of Taiwan. I do not think our friends in China fully understood this and so they resigned. I hope they will appreciate in due course the basic theory of homo ludens, that we are not political and that we may welcome them back in the fellowship of world sport once again.

That is not the only trouble we have had in the Far East. In the Asian Games less than a year ago Indonesia was the host country. We gave them a licence from our governing body to hold athletics—and many other governing bodies did the same—only on condition that all members of the geographical area were invited; otherwise there would have been no licence. Not only that: a further condition was that the athletes should have unhindered entry. Invitations were sent, but Israel and Taiwan were excluded from receiving identity cards to get into the country, and they were not guaranteed that if they got to Jakarta they would be allowed in. One international federation cancelled its events completely, and in the athletics we said there could be no athletics in the Games, 307 but as teams were there they could have an ordinary international meeting. That took place, and the Congress laid down that every country whose athletes competed there must accept the ruling of the international federation, that it was not part of the Asian Games but an international meeting. All except one, with whom negotiations are still on, have signed this undertaking.

To give your Lordships some idea of the power that can be wielded in these things, we have no army and no police. The greatest sanction we have is to disallow any country or individual from competing in the world of sport. In the Olympic Games in 1936 in Berlin, Hitler stated that the chairman of their organising committee, a respected member of the international committee because he was half-Jewish, could not remain in that position. The President of the I.O.C. went to Hitler and told him that he insisted there would be no Games in Berlin. Hitler had to climb down. The other day we met political interference in basketball in the Philippines: the Government refused to allow in players from Yugoslavia. The games were cancelled and went to South America We are not exactly in the clear about this in the NATO countries ourselves. In the political troubles which have taken place over the Wall, and the retaliation, the cancellation of visas of East German teams, the people who are suffering from this trouble are the young people whose fault it is not. The East German teams can no longer join in with the other teams of the world if they wish to compete. I hope it will be borne strongly in mind by the Foreign Office and the noble Earl the Foreign Secretary that a great many young people are suffering very much, to the extreme dissatisfaction of the whole of the youth of the sporting world.

We do meet successes, too. It perhaps will be of interest to your Lordships to know that Germany competes as one country in the Olympic Games, that they are affiliated to my Federation as one country and not two. We have just succeeded in bringing North Korea and South Korea together in one team for the Olympic Games at Tokyo. Those are some of the things we can put on the credit side of what we are achieving. 308 I have been telling your Lordships about these things because this is a side of the achievements of amateur sport which is often not appreciated. We have knowledge of the advantages inside our own country, what is done outside should also be known.

May I say a few words about what we hope will be the proposals of the noble Viscount the Lord President. I must say one thing about him: having had one or two private conversations with him, I am astounded that, with all the things he has to do, he has managed to get such a tremendous grasp of this complicated subject in such a short time. And it is complicated. What do we hope for? We hope for news of further facilities. We are lagging behind almost every other country in the world in this respect. When we hear from him, some may say that it does not go far enough; some may say that it does. But the most important thing, to my mind, is that we should get off the ground: because once you are flying you can rapidly increase your rate of climb; and once we are committed on certain lines really to start moving, I am sure that, as the months go by, we shall be able to increase the tempo.

Much has been done with the limited finances available. In the Amateur Athletics Association we have a very strong committee trying to urge upon local authorities their responsibility for providing facilities, and the Association gives advice on the layout of grounds to suit our particular sport. We work very closely with the National Playing Fields Association and the Central Council. What is the machinery to be? It is a difficult problem, because we are all attached, as it were, to different Government Departments. Quite clearly, most of the activities of the Central Council would depend on the Board of Education. So far as playing fields are concerned, I should have thought it would have been the Ministry of Education and the Departments which deal with local government.

With regard to the Commonwealth Games, obviously it is a matter for the Commonwealth Department. On the competitive sports, from that side of their activities so far as coaching is concerned we have these schemes already; and the Department is the Ministry of Education. Most of the coaching schemes are not 309 just to teach champions but to train volunteers how to coach others so that everybody gets the advantage. There is something that needs to be done in international competitive sport—the noble Lady touched on this, and it is very important. The way the bigger governing bodies usually arrange matches is to have a return match, one in one country and one in the other. That means the match in their own country pays for their expenses to visit the other country. But that depends on having an equally strong country to compete with. If you can compete only with a weaker country you cannot attract a big enough gate to meet the team's expenses. Yet it is the weak countries that need help and encouragement more than the others, not only those still joined to this country but those which are now independent and in process of building up; and others less strong in sport. Here we must call on the Government to help, and surely it is to the Foreign Office and the Commonwealth Office that we must look.

So far as the Olympic Games are concerned, we are on the verge of launching an appeal for Tokyo. We think that we shall be able to send teams by voluntary subscription. I have a splendid committee, mostly busy men in industry, commerce, trade unions and the like, who have come on the committee and are prepared to help us. The sports themselves will raise much of the money. But where we all need help in the governing bodies and the Olympic Association is in grants towards administration. We are poor in amateur sport. It is composed largely of young people who are still only in the lower brackets of salary. Many of them marry young, and therefore have further responsibilities. They can manage to run their clubs and help with their districts. But when it comes to the national field you cannot run great organisations without permanent staff; and that is not an easy thing to raise money for. If the Government will work through the existing channels of the amateur bodies and help them with the costs of administration I am perfectly certain that that would be one of the best ways to help.

One thing I pray that we shall not hear mentioned this afternoon is that there is to be a Minister of Sport. I believe that that would be a disaster, 310 because, after all, the whole make-up of sport is this great amateur edifice that we have built. From the nature of things, a member of any Government in politics has to deliver something good, and over a short period; such is the way that politics seem to work. In the national field this would surely mean that he would have to interfere in the actual administration of sport. If I may give an example of what could easily happen in the international field it is something that faces us at the present moment. The French Government, or their representative, has urged the Council of Europe to hold a meeting of all the amateur sports bodies in their area to discuss such questions as amateur status and the like. That has been turned down flat by the international federations, and by the national ones; because in the first place, this is not within their sphere of activity; and in the second place, the strength of sport is that we do not recognise Europe as two halves but as one whole, whether people are behind the Iron Curtain or are not. We work with our own European Commission, and quite successfully to cover the lot. If we had a Minister of Sport and he had been asked by his counterpart in France whether he would support him in this venture, I think it would have caused some disappointment in France to say, "No"; and if he said "Yes" he would find himself at loggerheads with the amateur bodies.

I think the idea of having a Minister for Sport, if I can put it that way, someone in the position of the Lord President, to whom we can go, who has other responsibilities as well as sport—it could be perhaps for all grant-aided bodies, but, at any rate, some other responsibilities as well—and who has a strong section under him who know all the details of what is going on in the various sporting bodies and can co-ordinate their applications for assistance to the various departments, is not so very different from something the noble Baroness was asking for. This, I think, would probably be the best way of tackling this most difficult problem.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess a question? I hesitate to do so, because he is making an extremely interesting speech. He does not mind, then, having a Minister who has a part-time job as 311 Minister for Sport, with special responsibility for sport, but he insists that this Minister must have something else to do. Is that such a tremendously important distinction?

§ THE MARQUESS OF EXETER

Yes, I think it is, because if a Minister is responsible for only one thing, as I see it, he is going to find that if he is going to produce results politically he must automatically devote much of his time to pushing this one thing—and this would lead almost certainly to interfering with the governing bodies and their management of the sport. What we want is the money to be provided, but as it is provided from public funds, somebody has to assume the responsibility. This is what the Wolfenden Report had in mind in their recommendation: that there must be some body which will accept that responsibility, will ration the money out, but will not interfere with the running of sport itself. Because immediately a Minister gets into the matter of administration, then I think we are going to have great trouble. I have actually seen this happen in other countries where this has taken place—I am referring to democratic countries now and not to the world as a whole.

But, apart from that point, I should like to touch on one other angle, in conclusion. It is one which I hope your Lordships will think about. Within the next ten years everybody in this country is going to have a motor car. We have already seen what is happening across the Atlantic. There a lot of people will not walk even one block now. Should that happen in this country, it will be a sorry position, because if you have a physically soft people how long will it take before the rugged character of the people changes? This is something which no Government can tackle alone, and no sports body can tackle. All the facilities can be provided; you can get in a lot of extra people by supporting the voluntary bodies, but in the long run it is going to be an approach to life.

I would urge that not only those in politics, but also particularly those in communications, the Press, the wireless, all leaders in national life, should not wait until this problem hits us, but even from now should start putting, whenever 312 they can, a slight emphasis on the extreme value to the individual and the community of his being reasonably healthy. I do not mean that everybody should run marathons, or that everybody should play violent games of Rugger quite late in life. I mean that people as they get older should play a game of golf or tennis, or even should walk, because I believe this is extremely important so far as the community is concerned.

If we push on with help to amateur sport, I believe we shall do a great deal for the youth of this country. We shall bring much happiness and pleasure. At the same time, we shall produce the sort of characters that we want to find in our citizens. Not only that, but by taking our active part in this field we shall be able, in the international field, too, to play a part in one of the greatest experiments that has ever taken place, so far successfully, in the integration of the ordinary people of the world. Surely, if we achieve well in this we shall have made a real contribution to the only sure foundation of that building which is the prayer of mankind: "Peace and good will among men".

§ LORD WALSTON

My Lords, I must start with an apology to your Lordships, and also with thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Amulree. I have, unfortunately, a longstanding speaking engagement during the course of the afternoon and must leave at an early stage of this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, has kindly allowed me to speak ahead of him. I am also most grateful to my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry for initiating this debate, which promises to be not only an extremely interesting but an extremely important one; and also, if I may say so, to the noble Marquess, Lord Exeter, for a truly magnificent speech. He said, in an exemplary manner, many things which we ought to know but which many of us, I am afraid, did not know and simply felt without realising why. I should like to carry on from the point where he stopped, or where he was just beginning to arrive at the end of his speech; that is, the effect of sport in this country, not in the international sphere.

We are now embarking on an era, and have been now slowly over a good many years, of increasing leisure. We 313 all agree that that is right, and we want people in this country to have more leisure. But as leisure increases, undoubtedly the problems of leisure increase. What should be done with the leisure time? Leisure is not an unmixed blessing. Leisure will be used in an antisocial manner, in a manner which gives rise to many things which all of us deplore. Leisure, wrongly used, can lead to juvenile delinquency, to crime, to unhappiness, to boredom and to many things of that sort. We and the Government in this country must turn our minds to how we should, not in organised leisure, enable people to profit from the leisure which they are now having in increasing quantities, and which we hope they will have in still more increasing quantities in years to come. There are many ways in which leisure can be well used. Education is undoubtedly one; the development of cultural life is another, and sport is yet another. It is in that context that I should like to say a few words on this subject.

In itself, of course, sport is not universally and inevitably good. There are forms of sport which are not so desirable. I remember finding myself on one occasion in Sicily, and I was there invited by the local Member of Parliament to join in a day's shooting, which I did, with considerable enjoyment but not very much success. When I returned to Rome I thought that it would be only civil to write to this Member of Parliament and thank him for my day's entertainment. Because my Italian was not up to it, I wrote in English and asked a kind young lady in the British Embassy if she would translate it for me. But in the course of my letter I thanked him for the fine example of Sicilian sport which he had shown me. A rather bashful young lady came back with the letter duly translated, and said "I am afraid we have had to alter one phrase, because in Italian ' Sicilian sport ' does not mean exactly what you want it to mean." She would never tell me exactly what it was, but I take it that your Lordships are well acquainted with Italian and have a very good idea what was meant. It is not that type of sport that needs a great deal of encouragement. In fact, it may be as a counterblast to that form of sport that we should agree it is a Government 314 responsibility that thought should be given to this matter.

In particular, it seems to me that there is one period in the life of people in this country which is of particular importance, and that is the period between school leaving and becoming fully grown-up. Most people at school have opportunities for sport and have the desire for sport; but when they leave school, no matter what their age at the time, or when they finish their education, and go into a job, it is very easy at that period to lose the habit of sport, never to regain it. We must concentrate on that post-education period in order to ensure that the love of sport, the desire to indulge in it, which young people have gained is given an opportunity of being carried on.

I will deal only with two forms of sport, in both of which I have had some experience and from which I have derived a great deal of enjoyment. One is fencing, a sport which has enormous advantages in the particular context of which I speak, and also in the more general context, because people can practise it and enjoy it without any great preparations; without the need to travel long distances; without having to do it regularly; and, indeed, without having to organise teams of other people to do it with them. Fencing is something which can be done in the odd half-hour or three-quarters of an hour in the evening, after the end of work in the factory or office. It can be done virtually anywhere where there is a relatively large room; it can be done so long as there is one other person; and it can be done at all seasons. Furthermore, it can be done with little equipment, and is therefore relatively cheap.

A great deal of progress has been made in the last few years, thanks to the efforts of a small group of very devoted amateurs of the sport who deserve a great deal of credit for what they have done. In 1945 there were only 51 fencing clubs in this country. The figure has now risen to 450—a considerable increase. What is more, it is a sport that has spread throughout the whole country; it is not concentrated only in London, and is not concentrated in any one class of persons. Before the war there used to be, for young people, only the Public Schools Fencing 315 Competition. That has now been overtaken by what is called the National Schools Fencing Competition, which is run on a regional basis throughout the country and attracts a very large number of entrants from schools of all kinds. The results of this spread of the sport are also shown in the international sense—and I do not think we should blind ourselves to the international aspect of this matter, although one should not elevate it too high, with the national prestige that goes with it. In the last few years British fencers have secured a gold medal at Melbourne; two silver medals at the Rome Olympics; two individual world championships; and four gold medals in the last Commonwealth Games. So that the results of the great growth of fencing are being seen in that way.

Of course, they are facing, as indeed are all who are connected with sport, considerable financial problems which I should like to deal with in a moment, but there are two particular aspects of their financial problem which I should like to mention. One which applies to many other types of sport also is the fact that they have to pay purchase tax on their equipment. That may be fair enough in one way, although it does seem rather ridiculous as so many of the fencing clubs are organised and financed by local authorities. The money for purchase tax comes out of the rates and in many cases there has to be a greater indirect grant from central funds, in order to help out with the deficiency on the rates. So a reduction in purchase tax, if not its entire abolition, would be a small matter, but would provide great encouragement to the people concerned.

Then there is a second matter, a delicate matter, I admit, but I think again there is justice and common sense on its side. This concerns the charging for admission for Sunday sport. With a sport like fencing, where many of the finals have to take place at week-ends in the London area, with the heat winners coming up from the Provinces, Sunday is the only day on which such people who do other jobs can manage to come along; but because admission fees may not be charged on a Sunday, the hiring of the hall and the expense of the finals competition cannot be met, 316 as it normally would in other sports, by charging admission fees. This puts a greater strain on the finances.

I should like to turn to a second and entirely different form of sport. Here I would quote some words from the Report of the Wolfenden Committee, to which my noble friend has already referred. In paragraph 2, Chapter 1, the Committee write: …a society which has the prospect of considerably increased leisure needs to look at this aspect of its corporate life more closely "— as I have already suggested to your Lordships. It goes on: Especially, an industrialised society, in which repetitive processes have largely taken the place of individual creation, needs to examine the contribution which play can make to full living, for the individual and for the society. As more and more people live urban lives, play takes its place—for one man as affording an opportunity for social activities with other town dwellers, for another as affording an opportunity for introducing into his own life a balancing element of the countryside and the open air. It is particularly on that aspect of it I should like to speak for a few minutes.

We are living increasingly, as the Wolfenden Committee so rightly point out, in what is surely an artificial environment. Increasingly people do not know what the elements are, or the risks taken by people who even to-day still have to come into contact with them. The average young person brought up to-day if he is too cold need do no more than put a shilling in the slot, or turn on the gas fire, or, if he is lucky, simply presses a button or turn on a switch. If he is too warm he may, and increasingly as time goes on he will, be able to do the reverse process and turn on his air conditioning. If the rain is coming down too hard he can get into a bus, into a Tube or into a motor car. It is very rare now for any young person to have to face the elements as they really are. And, my Lords, I believe there is something sound and healthy, not in going back to nature, not in living one's life clothed in woad and living in a mud hut, but in sometimes realising that there are elements over which man still at times and in places has no control at all.

If we can give help to those bodies and organisations that fill this need, I believe we shall be going a long way to filling the needs that the noble Marquess started 317 to touch on at the end of his speech. "Outward Bound" is the obvious example of the type of thing that I have in mind, but there are other organisations, too. There is mountaineering—and here, perhaps, the National Parks could help to an even greater extent than they do at the present time. There is camping, sailing—and not necessarily deep sea sailing, though that is one of the finest and most helpful methods of bringing this about. There are even such matters as canoeing. I met some young people the other evening who last year, having formed a canoeing club, went for a 100-mile trip down the Wye in canoes, camping in the evenings on the river banks. Activities of that kind, though not normally coming into the ambit of what most of us regard as sport, are of very great importance to the life of this country, to the enjoyment and development of people, and to the healthy and profitable use of leisure.

Now, what about the cost of all this? I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Marquess that we do not want sport to come into politics. We do not want a Government Department to organise sport and make political or administrative decisions about it. We have a fine body of individuals, groups, amateurs and, to a certain extent, professionals also, engaged in this matter, and it would be very dangerous indeed if they were overridden o: controlled by a Government Department. But we cannot get away from the fact that money is needed to enable them to develop their activities, and that money we are suggesting must come from Exchequer funds. So to that extent we must have some ministerial responsibility and some Minister, who is charged with the job of acquiring the money both from the rest of his colleagues and from the Treasury, and then of ensuring that it is distributed in such a way as will meet with public approval and give the maximum benefit.

I said just now that that money must come from public fluids. I am not sure that in fact it must. That is certainly the simplest and possibly the easiest way of finding it, but let us not forget that a lot of money is made out of sport by people who have no connection with sport. The football pools are an obvious example. Last year, for instance, football 318 pools and general betting on football was estimated to have had a turnover of £150 million, A levy of 2 per cent. on that would bring £3 million, or more than half the total of £5 million that the Wolfenden Committee considered was the correct amount at this stage to devote to the current expenses of sport. So it is possible that money could be obtained from sources such as that. And there is the example of the Betting Control Board, which makes valuable and substantial contributions from the money taken in by betting on racehorses to promote the breeding of bloodstock. Possibly there is a lesson to be learnt from that, and some revenue might be derived from that source.

But whether it comes in part or entirely from those, or from Government, sources, the next question is: how should this money be distributed among the different sports? As I said earlier, and as the noble Marquess made clear in his speech, there must be no detailed control of the bodies who are organising these sports. It must be left to them to do it. But we need one general overriding body to allocate the funds which we hope this Government, and we are confident the next Government, will make available to sport. There the answer seems to be the one that is suggested by the Wolfenden Committee—the logical and administratively simple method of a Sports Development Council. That would have its responsibility to whatever Minister it might be. The Lord President of the Council seems to be the obvious person for it on many grounds—not solely personal ones, but on general grounds of precedents as well as many others. The Council's job would be to decide the rival claims of the different authorities and bodies connected with the different aspects of sport, and to allocate this money accordingly; and, of course, to press the Government to increase—as I am quite certain they would press them to do—the annual amount available, and also the amount for capital improvements.

But however this is done—whether it is done, as I think it should be, through a Sports Development Council, or by some other means, so long as it is not done directly by one Government Department—the overriding need must be for the Government of this country to accept their responsibility in supplying a very 319 modest amount of money for the needs of sport. They must look on this not simply—in fact in no way at all—as giving a bit of money to people who, for some reason or another, like to hit a ball about with a bat, or who like to put on curious clothes and run up and down in the evening time, or even run round St. James's Park as I believe my noble friend Lord Longford used to do at one time—

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD

It was Christ Church Meadow.

§ LORD WALSTON

—but as a contribution towards the correct, productive and valuable use of such leisure as society has at the present time, and the increasing leisure which we all hope it will have.

§ LORD AMULREE

My Lords, I am very pleased that the noble Baroness put down this Motion upon the Order Paper, and I rise to say one or two words to support her. I have no particular reason to speak about sport, though I think there are two reasons why I am doing so; one is that the noble Baroness came and asked me, and the second is that I think the noble Marquess, who has already spoken, and I were both members of the Olympic Games Committee when these were held in London in 1948.

There are just one or two rather rambling and disjointed remarks which I should like to make on the field of sport. I should like to support the noble Baroness and other speakers, in their claim that some funds should be made available to amateur associations which run sporting activities. One that I know something about is the Hockey Association, which at the present time is trying to raise money to train, coach and send a team to (I think) the Olympic Games, and is having certain difficulty in doing so. I think it probably will succeed, but it is putting a very big strain upon the various clubs whose subscriptions have been greatly increased to provide this money. At the same time, as has already been pointed out, although a large number of these sporting associations were run by voluntary people in the past, that cannot be done now. People have not the money and, therefore, have to find money to 320 provide some kind of staff to keep them going. I do not think they are very demanding in the size of their staff, but there must now be someone there who is paid, whereas in former days people did it voluntarily and were not paid.

I think the noble Baroness raised a very important point as to whether assistance cannot be given to teams going from this country to other countries for sporting events, and, at the same time, to people coming to this country from other countries. There is one case in point which was brought to my notice the other day. There was a team of, I think it was, lawn tennis players which went to Poland, and they were supported entirely by the Polish Government. They had their expenses paid, and everything done for them. It would be very difficult indeed for the lawn tennis people in this country to arrange a similar visit, because the expenses of travel from Poland are quite large; and, although they could probably arrange the hospitality, it is a question of the big capital sums, like the 'plane fares or the train fares, for which it is very difficult for these bodies to find the money. Certain forms of sport—cycling, for example—do, I believe, obtain some money from the manufacturers, but I believe that even that source of money is tending to dry up. So there are difficulties coming all the way along.

There is one particular form of sport to which I should like to refer. It always surprises me the number of people who have never been taught how to swim. One sees in the papers every year the dreadful toll of young people, and middle-aged people, who are drowned—some have been drowned in the sea, some in rivers, some in ponds—merely because they have not been taught to swim and they do not know what water can do. I am sure that if one were taught properly about water, one would regard it as the friendly element that it is. It does not want to kill you. It is a friendly element, but it must be treated with a certain amount of respect. I am sure that, if people could be taught that, there would be far fewer fatalities of this kind, quite often involving young people. Moreover, these eases quite frequently concern young people who have gone to the rescue of some unfortunate person 321 who has got into trouble, which makes it all the more tragic and sad. If we could encourage that particular sport on a national basis, that would be contributing something very important indeed to the field in which we are all interested.

Then, to jump to another point, I have been greatly interested in the amount of sport which is encouraged among prisoners. I am told that in most borstal institutions the facilities are fairly good and that to-day there is not a great deal of improvement to be demanded. But I think that in some of our bigger prisons the facilities are not at all good. A certain proportion, I believe, have a permanent physical education instructor; and they play games, certainly at the week-ends. Some of the teams, I understand, play against teams from outside the prison. Others play a certain number of games at the weekends, although whether against people away from the prison or people inside the prison I am rot quite sure. But in quite a number—and these include a large number of our big local prisons—there are only very limited facilities for sport, partly because these prisons were built in crowded, built-up areas, and it is difficult to find playing field accommodation for them.

One would like to see these sporting activities encouraged, because it is a good way of bringing prisoners hack to normality, making their life something more like normal. One would very much like to find something that could be done to encourage that. I am sure the Prison Commissioners are very interested in that now, and that they want it as much as anybody. One would like to see all prisons given ample facilities for the enjoyment of sport.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, I believe that what he is saying is of tremendous importance. Does he not feel that, even where, in the big London prisons, facilities are not available, the prisoners should be taken out, under escort, so that they can use playing fields that are not otherwise being used?

§ LORD AMULREE

I am sure that could be done, but I did not want to go into too much detail. I entirely agree with the noble Earl that something 322 of that sort could be done, so that these young men could get some kind of physical sport going somewhere.

I should like to finish on a little more melancholy note. It seems to me that one has to be very careful to make sure one is not making a new form of privileged class in society. That may sound a rather curious thing to say, but I should like to refer, for example, to Hyde Park. The noble Marquess, I think it was, or the noble Lord, Lord Walston, referred to the fact that some people, when they are not as young as they were, take up walking as their main exercise. That, I am bound to say, is my main exercise. I live in London, and one of the things I enjoy very much is walking about this town. Until fairly recently it was possible for me to take a nice Sunday morning walk right round the Serpentine. I cannot do that now, because there is a big bathing establishment plumb in the middle of it, and I have got to make a detour to get around that. Even more parts of the park are taken up with golf and with bowls. I do not think there is a running track in Hyde Park, but there is certainly one in Regent's Park.

§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)

Only for horses.

§ LORD AMULREE

The noble Viscount says, "Only for horses", but that is not a privileged place; because if you cared to walk in Rotten Row, nobody would stop you. I admit that your boots would get very muddy and dusty, and you might get kicked by a passing horse: but you are not allowed to walk round the Serpentine and you are not allowed to walk where the bowling green is. If we are going to encourage facilities for sport, let us not make our public parks too full of enclosures for sport, and let us realise that there are certain people who do like to take normal, ordinary recreation. Those who wish to indulge in sport should have fields supplied where they can, and not interfere with other people. My Lords, Hyde Park is an extremely precious thing. I do not know if your Lordships remember, but when (I think it was) Queen Caroline, who took rather a liking to Hyde Park, asked what it would cost her to buy it, the reply was, "Three crowns, ma'am."

§ LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, it is just over two years since I introduced a Motion in this House drawing attention to the Report of the Wolfenden Committee. At the time, the economic climate was far from good, and my Motion did not extract anything very helpful from the Government. I would congratulate the noble Baroness on having chosen a more opportune time to introduce her Motion, and I wish her better luck. May I also join with other noble Lords who have thanked her for giving us this opportunity to discuss sport, and say how much I admired the way in which she introduced the Motion, with her usual charm and with the vigour which confirmed our knowledge of her as an outstanding athlete herself.

A few months ago we were discussing in this House the Report of the Arts Council, and it seems to me that, in their relationship to the Government, there are certain similarities between the arts and sport. In the first place, there is, I would say, increased popular interest in both, partly due, as the noble Lord, Lord Walston, mentioned, to the increased leisure that people have, and partly, perhaps, to television. In the second place, there is a lack of private benefactors. Certainly this was mentioned by many different speakers at the time we were discussing the Arts Council Report, and I think it is equally true of sport, although in the case of sport, perhaps, this voluntary aid comes more from industry and, as my noble friend Lord Exeter mentioned, from the newspapers. But certainly this sort of sport cannot be expected to go on for ever, and, indeed, may well fall off, because the demands on industry for every type of charitable cause are so tremendous to-day that most big industries have in fact to keep a special department to deal with them.

Certainly this is true in Wales. We are fortunate in being well-developed industrially in South Wales, but there are relatively few large companies, such as the Steel Company of Wales, Guest, Keen and Nettlefolds and British Nylon Spinners, to whom we have to appeal for everything that crops up, whether it is sport or the arts or charities. Also, we have a further slight disadvantage in Wales, in that many of these industrial firms are in fact subsidiaries of 324 English firms who may already have given money to the particular cause.

Because of these two similarities of the arts and sport, if they are valid, there is also a third: the increased need for Government support. I would echo what has been said to-day: that certainly none of us would wish that sport should depend entirely on Government support. Indeed, it is vital that it should continue to be supported by voluntary contributions. But there is a need for Government assistance to prime the pump if there is to be provided facilities necessary in modern conditions. This has already been recognised by the fact that there are certain Government grants in existence and by the appointment of my noble friend, the Lord President, to coordinate Government assistance to sport.

In the case of the arts, the organisational problem has, it seems to me, been very satisfactorily solved by the establishment of the Arts Council. The Government are therefore enabled to provide money to the Council which can then make its allocations as it seems fit and in the best priorities. It seems to me that the proposal of the Wolfenden Committee to establish a Sports Development Council would have achieved the same object; it would have given the Government the possibility of providing the money to an independent central authority which would then have been charged with the task of determining priorities.

However, this suggestion has not commended itself to the Government, and we have to face the alternative situation sin which my noble friend, the Lord President, has special responsibilities. Until he has spoken and given us some idea of what is in his mind it is perhaps difficult to speculate on how he sees the future; but I should hope, in whatever plans he has in mind, that there should be some form of regional organisation which would be enabled to decide priorities in the spending of public money, to assist sport in different localities and to make the best use of the money available. I hope, also, that his future plans will include making the best possible use of the various central bodies concerned, such as the Central Council of Physical Recreation, the National Playing Fields Association, the British 325 Olympic Association and the British and Empire Commonwealth Games Council.

I now turn briefly to what I see as the financial needs of sport, with particular reference to those needs in Wales with which I am most familiar. In the first place, I would repeat what has already been said by the noble Baroness of the need for increased grants to governing bodies of various sports to help meet administrative expenses. My noble friend, Lord Exeter, gave us some idea—I must say it was something I had not fully appreciated before—of the very great responsibilities that governing bodies have in the whole world of sport, quite apart from their responsibilities for their own sport in this country. Yet, with the wide responsibilities that they have, many of them do riot even have a paid secretary. I believe that in England soccer, rugby, tennis, badminton, equestrian sports and cricket are the only governing bodies that have paid secretaries. Even the Amateur Athletic Association, with its tremendous responsibilities, exists with an honorary secretary to run it. In Wales, the situation is worse, and only the Welsh Rugby Union and the Football Association of Wales have paid secretaries. I believe it would be of great value and a contribution towards increasing the sporting facilities in this country if the administrative expenses of these national governing bodies were assisted to a greater degree. Like the stone in the pool, ripples would move out through the national governing bodies to the local groups aid would be of help all over the country.

Secondly, as the noble Baroness also mentioned, there comes the need for more assistance for the organisation of international sport. Although at first sight this might seem to be a bottomless well, I would suggest that there are ways and means of limiting and confining it perhaps to world championships, including the Olympic Games, the European Games and the British Empire and Commonwealth Games, either in the form suggested by the noble Baroness of "pound for pound" or perhaps in the form suggested by my noble friend Lord Exeter of taking care of the administrative expenses involved.

I think, also, that there is a case for Government assistance for overseas tours where these may be of prestige value. 326 Just as the British Council organises tours of the arts abroad, and uses public money for doing so, I would suggest there is a case for assisting sports tours on a particular occasion, such as the instance, for example, mentioned by the noble Lady, of the hockey team that might have toured India. I believe there are one or two cases of that sort. There was another case where there were Independence Games to be held in a newly-independent African State and where, for a long time, it looked as if the Mother Country alone was going to be unable to send a team to compete in the Games to celebrate independence. I am happy to say that that problem was finally solved; but there are cases where money should be available, whether it be through the Foreign Office, the Commonwealth Relations Office or the Colonial Office, to sponsor worthwhile tours of that sort.

I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Walston, said about fencing. He mentioned that fencers had gained two world championship medals; but I believe I am right in saying that one of those medals was gained by Mr. Billy Hoskins, the only Briton represented at the world championships in America, because he sportingly undertook to pay his own fare to get there. The Fencing Association were unable to pay it; and he had to pay his own expenses in order to gain a world championship and to be the only person competing from this country. This only emphasises what I think necessary: that there should be funds available to meet cases of this kind. Thirdly, there is a need for increased assistance to the national bodies, such as the Central Council of the National Playing Fields Association; but there are many others better qualified than I to speak about these things and I need therefore say no more.

The last need, but not the least important one, is adequate provision of local facilities. In replying to the debate I initiated two years ago, the noble and learned Viscount who then sat on the Woolsack dazzled us with a figure of £18 million annually expended by the Government on facilities for sport in this country. But, of course, first of all he did fairly say that £9 million of this represented expenditure by the education authorities. This is admirable; but where 327 we are really so short is in the provision of facilities for people to continue sports once they have left school. The very fact that schools are so well equipped as many of them are, especially new schools, emphasises this need for the provision of adequate facilities for boys and girls once they have left school. The figures which the noble and learned Viscount gave of that side of the fence were rather more alarming. They were £100,000 in grants under the Physical Training and Recreation Act and £210,000 as a contribution towards the running costs of national voluntary bodies and towards coaching facilities. I think that a great deal more should be done under these headings.

It is true that the noble and learned Viscount also spoke of some £7 million expended by local authorities on providing facilities for sport, but he did not give any great details of how that was made up. But certainly in Wales, and I think unhesitatingly in the rest of the country, there is a grave inadequacy of proper facilities in many areas. In Wales, there is no real shortage of outdoor facilities, except for isolated cases, but there is a chronic shortage of indoor facilities both at club and international level. There is only one squash club of any size in Wales and this has a long waiting list. The southern branch of the Welsh Badminton Union, which plays matches with the English counties and represents the whole of South Wales, was unable to find a hall in South Wales which could provide two courts for their county matches. Various drill halls were available, but the cost of hiring for a match was beyond their resources. There are no indoor tennis courts in Wales, no ice skating rinks and facilities for such sports as judo are almost non-existent.

What we require in Cardiff is something in the shape of a sports centre which would provide indoor and outdoor facilities, to practise competition at all levels, something in the nature of the Crystal Palace national recreation centre though in Cardiff we are fortunate in already possessing a fine swimming pool. The other centres of population in Wales—such as Newport, Swansea, Haverfordwest and North Wales—would require something less elaborate in the form of sports halls, 328 owing to the difficulty and distances involved in travelling to Cardiff.

§ THE EARL OF LONGFORD

My Lords, I should like to obtain some clarification of the noble Lord's ideas. I am sure that all he says is absolutely right, but who ought to take the initiative, in his view, about providing the better facilities in Cardiff, for instance? Should it not be the local authority? And are they failing to get the proper help from the centre?

§ LORD ABERDARE

I think that the initiative should come from the local authority, but I hope that there would be increased possibility of getting grants to assist them with the cost of what would be fairly costly projects. Assuming that more Government help will be made available, the problem is to decide on how it can best be allocated and how priorities can be established. Perhaps sports councils could be set up regionally, consisting of representatives of local councils and voluntary sports bodies. I think that there is a need for some form of local organisation to establish priorities, if money is to be spent to the best advantage.

There are so many examples of where a comparatively small amount of money could accomplish such a lot. I can think of one scheme in South Wales, at a place called Merthyr Mawr, where by local initiative a farmhouse is being converted into a suitable changing room and overnight stopping area for athletes who can train on the sand dunes. So far the local initiative, which has come from the Welsh A.A.A., has done a certain amount of work and with a grant from the A.A.A. and a lot of local labour provided free, the job has been begun, but they are short of the final amount of money which would just make the scheme work. Unfortunately, it looks as if it will fail, unless more money is forthcoming.

I also think that this question of local advice on priorities should include the best use of local facilities. As the noble Baroness said, there is need for a survey of local facilities in every area, especially to make sure that the best use is being made of the facilities that exist. There are a number of sports facilities owned by schools, commercial firms and the Services which are not in full-time use 329 and which often could be brought into full-time use, if there was a little more money available to a local club or sporting association to pay the probably small extra cost involved in keeping them open. It may be a question of overtime for groundsmen, extra electricity or an extra roller, but for a comparatively small amount of money better use could be made of these facilities.

Another example is the use made of swimming pools in schools. I believe that I am right in saying that in many cases swimming pools have been built in newly erected schools which could easily be made available to the adult population in the evenings, but they are closed because the chlorination plant installed is not sufficient to cope with more than a certain amount of people bathing in the pool. I suggest that if there were better co-ordination between the local education authority, the local council and local sports bodies at the time school pools were built, it might be possible, at comparatively little extra cost, to put in larger chlorination plants, if that indeed is the problem, to make the pool available not only to school children during daylight but also to the adult population in the evening.

In brief, what I believe is required is more Government money and some form of regional planning to make the best use of it. We look forward with great anticipation to what my noble friend the Lord President has to say this evening, though I very much regret that I shall be unable to be present at the very end. I hope that he will accept my apologies and believe that no discourtesy is intended.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, I would appeal to the Government on grounds which are entirely different from those which previous speakers have put forward. May I say how delighted I am that my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry has initiated this debate? While listening to her speech, I am sure we all regretted that we have never had an opportunity of seeing her run in some international event. I presume that it is too late now. I am sorry that the noble Marquess, Lord Exeter, has gone, because, as a doctor, I was intrigued by his comment that he 330 went into sport because he thought his legs were too short.

§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

Too long.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

I thought that I should go into sport, though I was not terribly good at it, because my legs were so long. But if the noble Marquess said that, that equates us.

§ THE EARL OF GOSFORD

My Lords, I think I can put the noble Lady's mind at rest. My noble friend said that he was too short above the knee and too long below—or it may have been the other way round.

§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

I would not dare to suggest that I should measure them. Perhaps the noble Marquess will toll us privately about that. The very essence of British sport is willingness to adhere to the rules, to show consideration of others and not to be guilty of any unfair practices which might injure an opponent. I believe that all noble Lords who have spoken would agree with that. With this eminently desirable approach to sport, if a man is injured accidentally on the football field, in cricket, in fencing or elsewhere, the crowd has the greatest sympathy for him. His fellow players may feel a little guilty, and particularly the one who is responsible for the injury. The game is stopped until he recovers, or, if he has a serious injury, he is carried from the field. Therefore it is a source of unceasing wonder to me that genuine sports lovers do not collectively denounce a business masquerading as a sport which bears no comparison to sports which are conducted in accordance with these high principles. I am referring, of course, to prize fighting, in which the objective is to injure your opponent so severely that he is rendered insensible. If he has a minor injury, such as a bleeding eyelid, then the instructions are to play on it. If he has been dazed by a blow to the head, according to a classic in the Library in the House of Commons which I have consulted, his opponent should mot wait for him to recover, but should deliver a knock-out blow as soon as possible. That, it is said, is the right sporting attitude to the dazed man.

How long will Britain tolerate this ugly business, which exploits youth in the name of sport and presents a brutal and 331 degrading spectacle on television to people in their very homes? Here, I should have thought, was a great opportunity for the first Minister for Sport (and I understand it is in order to call the noble Viscount the Minister for Sport, and not of Sport) to speak for a rapidly growing section of the public—not a tiny, cranky minority—and to denounce the business of prize fighting without any qualification.

Your Lordships gave me a courteous hearing last year when I introduced a Bill to ban boxing. The result was encouraging. We had quite a full House, and I must confess that I thought all your Lordships would go into the Lobby against me, because, obviously the male and no doubt the female, has a degree of aggressive instinct, even in the Houses of Parliament. But, no: many of your Lordships kindly abstained, and the result was that I lost by only seven votes. I felt that this House was deeply concerned, not only with the harmful effects on boxers themselves, but with the debasing effect on the onlookers. I said then that Parliament in the last century did not ban cock fighting because it was sorry for the cocks; it banned cock fighting because it realised it had a debasing effect upon the population of Britain in the nineteenth century. Since our debate there have been a number of deaths in the ring, and public opinion in many countries has been moved to protest against the business. That is why I come to the Government today and ask the noble Viscount whether he will be the hero of the nicest people in the country and recognise what other countries have done in the last year. I believe that your Lordships, in part, were responsible for this, because that debate was widely reported.

The New York Legislature, to start with (and we should all agree that this mis-called sport is conducted in the United States of America in a manner which is more brutal than it is in this country) set up a committee to examine the procedure, with a view to regulating the conduct of fights. I was very honoured to receive all the reports, and only about a month ago they finally made recommendations. They are making recommendations of such a kind now that I am told the promoters are saying that if these recommendations are carried out nobody 332 will want to go to see the fighting. In Belgium (and the Deputy