ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH

§ LORD OGMORE

My Lords, in a way, I suppose this is a third maiden speech which I am making: two in this Chamber and one in another place. Before I begin, I must express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Rea, and his colleagues for the welcome they have given me. May I also acknowledge the intimation, or the invitation, of the noble Earl the Leader of the House, who suggested that this was a halfway stage to his own Benches. I should like to assure him that I shall not take advantage of that invitation to join the peace, perfect peace, of the Benches behind him. I do not leave the Labour Party to become less Radical, but to become more Radical.

I should not have inflicted a speech on your Lordships to-day were it not that the subject is one in which I have taken a great interest for many years and which I think, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has said, is one of the most important that faces us in this country. I want straight away to pay a tribute to the late Secretary of State, Mr. Lennox-Boyd. I want to pay that tribute particularly because he and I on many occasions over the years crossed swords; we did not see eye to eye on many matters. It is too early yet to say what his place will be in the long and distinguished list of Secretaries of State for the Colonies, but one thing we can say about him, and ought to say—because Parliament is a very hard place and public life is a very harsh life, and when a man drops out of it, he has gone—is that nobody who has occupied this position ever had a more sincere interest in it than Mr. Lennox-Boyd, who in his heart of hearts had a great desire to do his best for the people for whom he was responsible. I should also like to welcome the new Secretary of State, Mr. Macleod, and to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Perth, on at least remaining in the saddle and on not having been moved away from a Department in which I know he is deeply interested.

Years ago, just before he died, the late Field-Marshal Smuts said to me: "You know, Africa is the forgotten continent; nobody is thinking about it; but I am perfectly sure that in a very few years' time Africa is going to come into its own and is going to be the continent of which we are all thinking." I say that he was 252 right. Africa is now going through the same sort of upheaval as Europe went through in the sixteenth century: new ideas are fermenting and new forces are germinating, and when the drums roll in one part of Africa, as they are to-day at this very moment in the Belgian Congo, the voices of those drums are heard from one end of the continent to the other. The greatest challenge that face this country at the present moment is the challenge of Central and East Africa, and how we meet it is very largely going to mean whether we get a world in which Parliamentary democracy can exist and can rule rather than a world in which totalitarian Powers and totalitarian systems rule instead. The position is not yet lost, in my opinion, but the sands are running out at a terrifying rate and there is little time to lose.

The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, dealt with the background to this problem shortly, but quite adequately, in my opinion, and we might just bring it up to date. Since the statement by the noble Earl, Lord Home, on July 21, two things have happened: Mr. Chirwa, one of the leaders of the Africans in Nyasaland, has been released from custody—a fate which has not yet come to Dr. Banda or 458 colleagues of his who are still in detention; and Mr. Chirwa has founded the new Malawi Congress Party in Nyasaland. In addition to that, the officials who are obtaining the necessary information and material for the Parliamentary Commission that is to sit next year are now completing their inquiries. I regret to say that in Nyasaland the deadlock is almost complete. The Africans are sullen; the Government is aloof. The Africans have not been mollified by the tentative moves by the Government in the Executive and Legislative Councils. Strangely enough, in Southern Rhodesia the position seems to be more healthy, and there certainly has been a considerable move there in European opinion. In fact, steps have taken place in Southern Rhodesia which only a few years ago would have been thought to be quite impossible.

Of all theories in this world, I should have thought the most stupid was the theory of racial discrimination: that by reason of a person's birth—though, after all, our birth is one thing for which we have no responsibility whatever, and can 253 take neither blame nor praise—because of the place where he was born, the colour of his skin, the language he talks, in some way or other that person is of a higher or lower order than the rest of us. Unfortunately, this principle or theory is held in certain parts of Africa. One objection is that the Africans have black skins and a certain configuration of the face. The reason for this was brought home to me very clearly only last year in Port Harcourt. I was representing the East Nigerian Government before the Willink Commission, and we were carrying on our deliberations in a tin-roofed but without any fans, or anyway without ceiling fans, in a temperature which was indescribably hot and indescribably humid. It occurred to me that, of all the people there, we, the few Europeans, were the worst equipped with our pink cheeks and narrow noses. The Africans had been far better equipped by the Lord to deal with the sort of conditions with which they had to deal. Thai is the reason why some people have dark skins and some have pink skins, and some have broad noses and some have narrow noses. It is simply a question of conforming to the geographical and physical conditions in which we live—a very sensible decision of the Lord, if one may say so. But that is very different from saying that a person with a certain type of skin and facial description is not fit to rule himself, whereas others with other types of skin and colour are. When put in that way it is so absurd that none of us reasoning creatures can believe it for a moment.

The other objection is that not many of these people—and we shall probably hear this in the course of the debate to-day—or that at present not sufficient of them have been trained. Whose fault is that? We have been in these territories for many years. Whose fault is it that they have not been trained to undertake the responsible duties which are required of them? It is remarkable how quickly Africans can acclimatise themselves to their duties. Last year I sat in at the deliberations, being the only European there, of African Cabinets on two occasions, and I can assure your Lordships that those men, who have had comparatively few years in government or experience of that kind, carried on the Cabinet in a perfectly thorough and 254 efficient way. My experience of people in the Far East and Africa is that basically we are much the same. Basically our desires and limitations are much the same, and it does not really make very much difference. We can exclude, as I hope an objective audience looking at this problem purely objectively can exclude, any question of race from the consideration of this problem. The urgent necessity to-day is to restore confidence and to create a better climate of opinion in the Africans in Central Africa.

We on these Benches entirely agree with the Amendment which has been proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and we shall support it, if necessary, in the Lobby. In addition to the suggestions made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, which I hope the Government will accept—I really do not see why they should not—I would, if I were in their position, go to Dr. Banda, Mr. Chirwa and the other leaders and say to them: "Look here, mistakes have been made in the past on all sides. Let us forget the past. Let us tear it up. Let us start afresh. We will treat you as responsible politicians, and we have no doubt that you will behave like them." I would suggest to the extremists on both sides to keep open minds and closed mouths. Statements like that of the noble Viscount, Lord Malvern, that, with a few minor exceptions, all Africans are liars, are not helpful, to put it mildly. Statements like that of the noble Lord, Lord Jeffreys, who in this House suggested Mat we should send out the British Army to teach the Nyasalanders a lesson are not helpful either. Because what does "teach them a lesson" mean?—shooting them, beating them? Perhaps that is the opinion of noble Lords who, in the words of the noble Earl, Lord Winter-ton, in common with the rest of the Conservative Party, are now Left of Centre.

The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has referred to a Parliamentary Commission. This could create a better understanding of the problem, and it could find a common approach. There were three opinions on this matter in the beginning. There was the Government's opinion; there was Sir Roy Welensky's opinion, and there was the Labour Opposition opinion. The Government, to do them 255 justice—and particularly the noble Earl, Lord Home—did their best to find some sort of common ground between Sir Roy Welensky, who gave the Federal Government's opinion, and the Labour Opposition. The noble Earl worked very hard to try to do that. I think it is fair to say that he got Sir Roy Welensky about as far along the road as he would go. One must look at Sir Roy Welensky's problems. He has difficulties, as we have here. I think that he even had a Censure Motion put down against him in his own Legislative Council. He undoubtedly moved a considerable way towards meeting the point of view of the Labour Opposition. He said quite clearly that his people in his Legislative Council did not welcome Parliamentarians from the British Parliament coming to Southern Rhodesia and wandering around and making inquiries.

I feel that to-day the British Government's view, the Government's synthesis, as it were, between Sir Roy Welensky's opinion and the Labour Opposition's opinion, is not an unreasonable one, and I think we should all do well to accept it. It seems to me that the present framework of the Commission is reasonable in the circumstances, and is likely to be workable. I would therefore ask the Labour Party, as well as noble Lords in other parts of the House, to accept the Government's Commission as they propose it at the moment. The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Monckton of Brenchley, is a good choice as Chairman. I feel sure that he will hold the balance in the best possible way. I hope he will not have the same sort of experience as Mr. Justice Devlin had.

The main point in all this, however, is: Who are to be the African representatives on this Commission? Your Lordships will remember that there are to be five Africans appointed as members of this Commission. Who are they going to be? That is really the key to the whole matter. We can assume that there will be distinguished people from this country, who will do their best in the circumstances, and that there will be distinguished people from the Federation, who will also do their best. But they will all be Europeans. I think there are to be two members of the Commonwealth who may not necessarily be Europeans, 256 and I hope they will not be; I hope they will be Indians or Malayans or something of that kind, as members of the Commonwealth. But it is mainly the Africans upon whom the success of this Commission will turn.

I would suggest that the Government consult Dr. Banda, Mr. Chirwa and the other representatives of the Africans, whether they are in detention or not, and do their best to get from them—and I think this is essential—a list of Africans who they will agree should be on this Commission. That may be impossible to do—I do not know—but I think it is well worth a trial, to try to get from Dr. Banda and Mr. Chirwa a list of people they would regard as suitable. Because unless both the Africans and the Europeans have confidence in this Commission, then the whole point of it will be gone. If the Africans reject these proposals completely, if the Europeans reject them completely, there is really no point in setting up the Commission. I do not think the proposal which I make to the two noble Earls who are going to reply is at all unreasonable, and may well sow the seed of a satisfactory solution to this problem.

Talking about solutions, I would remark that it is rather early at the moment to suggest firm solutions to this problem, but we can at least be talking about them and thinking about them. In the first place, I think there are certain definite principles which this Commission, and we ourselves as Parliamentarians who will ultimately have to decide the problem, ought to bear in mind. The first is the need for political advance in the three territories to democratic self-government, and that within a reasonable time. Once this principle is acknowledged and acted upon, then the Africans will co-operate in becoming trained to take their share in the running of the three territories. Furthermore, they will then, I feel certain, be prepared to carry out their responsibilities to the Europeans and the Asians who have played such a vital part in the development of these territories. They will realise the immense contribution that the Europeans and the Asians have made and will be prepared to acknowledge that contribution and, as it were, to incorporate it into the framework of their future lives in Africa.

257 I must say, having regard to this point, that I have been most concerned at the attitude of the present Tanganyikan Government. It is all right, you may say, to kick Asians around; there are not many of them, comparatively speaking. But if you start kicking any race around as a race, you never know what will happen and who gets kicked around next. I have been most concerned at the attitude of the Tanganyikan Government in its treatment of some of the Asians in its territory.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH)

I think the noble Lord means Uganda, not Tanganyika.

§ LORD OGMORE

No, I have no complaints about the Uganda Government. It is not their fault that the Asians have had such a bad time in Uganda. I am talking about the Tanganyikan Government. The Asians are having a bad time in Uganda, but it is not the fault of the Government but of the Africans. But in Tanganyika the Government itself has some responsibility for what has happened, and that is a very bad precedent to follow. On the question of African rule and what is going to happen when the Africans—as they will; there is no question about it—get majority rule in all parts of Africa, I wish some people who talk so despondently about this would go and visit Nigeria. There is a good example. There are no Europeans in the Governments; they are all-African Governments. They have, of course, a certain number of Europeans in the administrative services and the technical services, and they are recruiting more. This is the point I want to make. Here is a country with an all-African Government—in fact there will be four African Governments soon, when they have independence. Nobody is refraining from putting capital into Nigeria for that reason. In fact capital is pouring into Nigeria—British capital, American, German, Italian and Israeli capital. I have never seen the figures, because no one has ever computed them, but I guarantee that if the figures were computed of the capital being poured into Nigeria anti the capital in Nigeria at the moment, it would be as much as, if not more than, the European capital in Kenya; and soon it will be more than the European capital in the whole of 258 central Africa. What are we afraid of? No one worries about the risk to capital in Nigeria. Why should there be any worry about the risk to capital in Central Africa?

Yesterday in another place on this point about the representation of Africans, which is one of the key questions in this whole problem, the new Secretary of State, Mr. Macleod, said he did not want representation in the Legislative Councils of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland by races but as a result of a common roll (I am not quoting him literally; this is a digest of what he said); in other words, he did not want the Legislative Councils to represent races but to be returned, as Members of another place are in this country, from a common roll, from electors from constituencies. I entirely agree with him on that; he is perfectly right. Such advice as I gave years ago in Africa and Malaya was to do this very thing, to get away from this racial representation.

There is, however, a curious anomaly in this case. The Secretary of State does not want racial representation; he wants a common roll. But he wants the common roll with a very limited and qualitative franchise. You cannot have both; this makes nonsense. You can either have racial representation or you can have a common roll, with everybody on it. You cannot have half and half, because then you are trying to have racial representation with a common roll; and that, surely, must be nonsense. Perhaps the noble Earl, Lord Perth, when he comes to reply, will tell us how this dangerous illusion came into the mind—because I have never heard anyone say this before—of the Secretary of State after only a week or so in office. I would ask the noble Earl to do his best to scrub out from the mind of his right honourable friend this thinking, which is both dangerous and incorrect.

I would also ask the noble Earl why the Nyasaland Africans are so different from the Africans in other parts of Africa, in West Africa and North East Africa, Somaliland, and particularly in Basutoland. I want to compliment the noble Earl, Lord Home, on his recent action in Basutoland. He has been very shy over this; he has not told us anything about it, so far as I recall. There in Basutoland, in the very heart of the 259 Union, surrounded by Union territory on all sides, an island in the heart of the Union, the noble Earl, Lord Home, has arranged for an electoral roll, for elections in January next and for an elected Parliament for the people of Basutoland. That surely is a very courageous thing to do in the heart of the Union of South Africa. And now that he has done that courageous thing, perhaps he will tell us in what way the people of Basutoland differ from the people of Nyasaland. If he can bestow this system upon the people for whom he is responsible in Basutoland, why is it that his colleague the Colonial Secretary cannot bestow the same system immediately on the people of Nyasaland?

The second principle (and I shall say very little about the second and the others) I think we ought to bear in mind is the need for a great deal of economic assistance by us to Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia. I should like to ask the Secretary of State, when he comes to reply, what specific proposals he has in this regard. In respect to the gracious Speech, the noble Earl referred to the fact that the foundation of peace lies in bringing the standard of living of underdeveloped nations nearer to that of the industrial nations. We all agree with those sentiments and we welcome them. Perhaps he would tell us precisely how he intends to bring them into being in Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia—in other words, what developments are going to take place there so as to bring this most desirable future state into being? How are they going to be brought nearer to us so far as their standards of living are concerned?

The third principle is that we must not stop short at Central Africa in our genius for constitutional development of various kinds. We have the most diverse constitutional arrangements in the world. We have in our Commonwealth a non-elected Queen, the Queen of Tonga; we have an elected King, the King of Malaya. We have a republic in India and we have a republic in Pakistan. We have other countries in various states of constitutional development and having various constitutional forms. Surely, with that genius of ours for applying Constitutions to fit the particular standards of the time, we can create some form of Constitution in Central Africa that is going to meet the needs and 260 desires of the people. At the moment, it is quite clear that federation as it has been conceived does not suit the bulk of the people; and at the moment—I say "at the moment" —there is no possible likelihood that it will. So is it not possible for us to consider other forms of association—confederation, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said, customs unions, and the like? There are all sorts of ways in which we can achieve the object we have in mind—namely, to have some kind of economic relationship between these three territories.

The fourth principle is that it is essential for us here to make social contacts with the people of these territories. I hope that the Secretary of State for the Colonies will go out soon to Nyasaland. Will he see not only the present leaders of African opinion, who unfortunately are mainly in detention—he can go and see them, certainly—but will he not also see the future leaders? At the present moment they are much more difficult to get hold of, but they can be got hold of if you know where to look for them. I would suggest to the Secretary of State that, on occasion, he should slip away from the cavalcade that always accompanies Ministers on these occasions; that he makes his own investigations, that he walks alone in a bush shirt and a pair of slacks—they will not recognise him; they never recognise anybody in these places—and that he goes around the streets, to the bazaars and to the coffee shops, and sits down and listens. Probably he will not understand what they are saying, but he will gather what they are saying; he will learn what the ordinary man on the street is saying and thinking in these places, and he will find out that there is not a great deal of difference between that and what the ordinary man in this country thinks.

My Lords, in conclusion, may I ask the Government, and particularly the noble Earl, Lord Home, who has vast responsibilities in this area, without a moment's delay to take the initiative in this whole problem—the initiative such as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and I have suggested; and as an earnest of their good intentions may I strongly recommend that they accept the Amendment moved so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin.

§ THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, I welcome—I think I speak for all of your Lordships—the speech of the mover of the Amendment, and that he should have done so in such a nice and reasonable way, even although I think he strayed a good deal from the Amendment as it is written and argued perhaps more generally—though there is no harm in that. I welcome still more the "third maiden speech" of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. I welcome it because he himself supports the idea of a Commission and because he paid such a warm tribute to my former Secretary of State. The noble Lord's wisdom and his valuable suggestions on African and Colonial affairs will be of the greatest value to all of us, wherever he may sit, even if he does not come the whole way round.

There is one point that I must cake up which, quite frankly, I do not fully understand, and that is when he made an attack on the qualitative common roll, which is a policy which we have adopted, I think with great success, in Northern Rhodesia. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his speech referred to how things in Northern Rhodesia were going better. It is no negation of the idea of a franchise that it should be qualitative. The idea of a qualitative franchise is something which was a common thing to find in this country until a short time ago, and it is the best way of getting all the races to take their part in political life without questioning whether they may be African or white.

§ LORD OGMORE

My Lords, I am sorry to intervene but I did not make it clear to the noble Earl. What I meant was that if you decry the idea of having racial representation—which I think is the right thing to do—then you cannot at the same time have a qualitative roll, because that is a way of getting racial representation in by the back door.

§ THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, you can and you do have a common rôle. As I have pointed out, in Northern Rhodesia we have had success in getting one and all to play their part in the work of government when they are up to it.

Before I deal in some detail with the Amendment, I have it in mind, with your 262 Lordships' permission, to roam a little wider on colonial matters. I shall not roam too wide. In particular, I want to touch on two subjects. One is my former Secretary of State, and the other is my recent trip to Nigeria. Just three months ago in this House, and also in another place, there was a strong attack on the Government for the tragedy of Hola and on the Devlin Report. I am not complaining that there should have been such an attack on either subject, but, in a way, it was so unlucky that the tenure of office of one who, am sure, is one of the greatest Colonial Secretaries should, as it were, end on this note.

His achievements in office—he was Secretary of State for over five years—are apt to be taken for granted, though I am confident that in fact they will always live. To name a few: independence for Ghana and for Malaya, and in 1960 for Nigeria; Federation of the West Indies set on its path, and great constitutional and other progress in many other territories. Of course, his alone is not the credit for all this. It is, too, the work of countless others in the Colonial and Overseas Service, some of whom sit now in your Lordships' House, and, of course, of many past Governments. All the same, his was a very personal contribution—ask the Prime Minister of Ghana, Dr. Nkrumah, or the Prime Minister of Malaya, Tunku Abdul Rahman; or, again, ask the Prime Minister of Nigeria, Alhaji Abubakar, or the Premiers of the Regions, or indeed any of those who were fortunate enough to take part in the Nigerian Constitutional Conferences of 1957 and 1958. One and all of them, and many others, know his devotion to the colonial peoples and to their wellbeing, whether of things material or things of the mind. Colour and race did not and do not enter into his concept of relations. It has been a great inspiration and a great privilege for me to have worked under him and I shall never forget it. And now I have a new boss, and already I know that to work under him is going to be good and to be fun.

Let me now turn for a moment to my Nigerian trip. I spent an all too short time there—three weeks to be exact. Let me take this opportunity of thanking all my friends in Nigeria, and particularly the Federal and Regional Governments, 263 for all their kindness and the trouble they took with my visit. What I saw fully confirmed my belief in the great future that lies ahead for that country, a country with a population of between 35 and 40 million people, nearly one-fifth of all the peoples of Africa.

This great population is in, for Africa, a relatively small country—something only about four times the size of the United Kingdom—but the very fact is indicative of the richness of its soil and its climate. Not only can its people grow enough to feed themselves but they also produce about £100 million of cash crops for export—such things as vegetable oils, cocoa, cotton and rubber; and with improved methods of agriculture and improved strains of crops I am quite sure that these figures will soon be largely exceeded. Now they have discovered oil; how much it is early times to say, but it is in important quantities.

The economic outlook is good. Nigeria can, in the main, pay its way and finance its hugh development programme. Roads and railways (it is one of the few countries, I suppose, where railways are now being built), huge power projects and harbours, as well as industrial plants, are fast progressing. And the people look to us, above all, to help them not only with money but also, and most important with industrial skills and experience. There is, I am sure, a great opportunity for our industry, and we, and they, must think not only in terms of exports but of setting up in the country and of training its people—who are quick to learn—both on the spot and in this country, so that they can go forward on their own. Everywhere there you feel the bustle and awakening of the country. I have spoken of economic matters but equally help is needed in the schools, in the Health Service, and so on—

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

What about Nyasaland?

§ THE EARL OF PERTH

—and there is room, and more, not only for help from us but for help from others of the outside world. But Nigerians look first to us as their tried and trusted friends and we must not fail, for I believe that if Nigeria goes forward, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has said as I am sure she will, her peoples' influence for good in Africa will be decisive.

264 The noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, has asked that I should turn to the Amendment and Nyasaland. I will try to be not too controversial, but the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who raised the matter first did not stick very strictly to the terms of the Amendment; rather did he range widely and question the whole policy on the Federation. It is, of course, very helpful to get some of these ideas, and one is always open to consider them, and has no closed mind. When the noble Lord puts forward the suggestion for the postponement of the plan we have launched to get on with the development of the Federation or whatever it may be, then I feel that that suggestion is a difficult one and is not one about which I can give him much encouragement.

Three months ago we had a debate on the Devlin Report and it is now the first subject on which the Opposition challenge Her Majesty's Government. In the meantime the Government have had a resounding vote of confidence from the country, and at least that vote can be interpreted as not disapproving of our policy in Africa. Why, then, it may be asked, do the Opposition raise the issue again so soon? I believe the answer is to be found in the speech of the Mover of the humble Address to Her Majesty, the noble Lord, Lord Hastings. He showed how there have always been two streams of thought and action on colonial policy: that of Warren Hastings and the great colonial administrators on the side of law and order, and that of such as Wilberforce and Burke on the side of individual liberty. Sometimes the streams diverge, sometimes they run parallel and sometimes they merge.

I believe that those who move the Amendment do so in the belief that they are pleading the cause of individual liberty—and what is more important? The noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, said the other day, "This is a matter that really touches our heart". But while I respect their belief and sincerity, we are not behind them on this matter, and I believe they are in danger of being led astray. If we follow their Amendment we might get exactly the opposite to what they and we want, namely, liberty of the individual. I believe that if conscience is allowed to overrule reason, what they and we deeply desire will be lost and there 265 will be great suffering for the people who are entrusted to our care.

I should wish to take the Amendment as it stands. It is divided into two parts. The first is that we should end the emergency with the release or trial of individuals. As your Lordships know, ending the state of emergency is the responsibility of the Governor, just as is its declaration. If it is ended too soon, or if individuals are released too soon, then, again, we may have violence, and his would be the burden and the blame for the suffering of the people. Unhappily it would seem (and it is only eight months since the emergency was declared) that violence threatens still. Mr. Andrew Kayira, a distinguished African, a short while ago was appointed to the Legislative Council. Within a day or two of his appointment his house was burned; and since then there have been several other cases of arson. Intimidation, which is so often referred to in the Devlin Report, is unhappily still a weapon in that country and points to the continuing necessity for some emergency powers for Nyasaland.

Neither the Governor nor Her Majesty's Government wish to see these powers retained for a moment longer than is necessary, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in another place yesterday told how the whole of this question of emergency powers in the Colonies has been specially considered. The aim of the Governor of Nyasaland and ourselves is, of course, to get back to normal and legitimate political activity in Nyasaland. Some indication of this is to be seen in the growth of the Malawi Party of which Mr. Orton Chirwa is Chairman; until recently he was a detainee and he had been legal adviser to Dr. Banda. The Malawi Party policy is strongly opposed to federation and the policy of the Government; but legitimate opposition—and I would stress the word "legitimate"—has nothing to fear.

Again, on the release of detainees I would point out that the Governor has already managed to reduce the number detained to well under half of those who were detained at the time when the emergency was declared. It is not enough, but it is progress, and, as all your Lordships will know, he is constantly reviewing cases to see whether he can cut down 266 the numbers still further. But to go too fast may ruin everything, and would take this opportunity to reiterate our complete confidence in the Governor and in his judgment.

Last week the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, raised the question of Mwenya and his application for habeas corpus. That. My Lords, is a very complex legal question, and I am happy to say that my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor is to deal with this matter so that I shall not have to travel into these difficult and uncharted seas.

I would now turn to the second part of the Amendment, which is a call for an extended franchise for Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia so that those taking part in the 1960 Conference may be truly representative. Before I touch on that, I think I must refer to a red herring which I felt the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, drew across in his speech on this subject, when he said that it was necessary because we had made no progress for six years in bringing Africans into Government in those two territories. My Lords, that simply is not the case. If your Lordships look at the record, even in Nyasaland to-day, you will see that Africans are in the majority in unofficial members. It is true they are nominated rather than chosen by election, although until recently they were so chosen: that is a state of affairs which is due to the emergency. Again, we have two Africans on the Executive Council in Nyasaland, and in Northern Rhodesia there are many Africans who are in the Legislative Council. So to say that there has been no progress is just, as I said before, not the case.

§ LORD SILKIN

My Lords, I intervene just to correct the noble Earl. I did not say that there has been no progress; I said there had been very little material progress.

§ THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, I do not want to become too controversial on this matter, but when one recalls how many Africans had the vote or a seat in the Legislative Council in the days of the Labour Government, one would say perhaps that the progress is very marked, because in those days there were none.

I believe that the second part of the Amendment, to which I have referred, is based on a misunderstanding of the position. If without an extension of the 267 franchise the people of the territories would not be well heard, I myself would support the Amendment; or again, if, but for such an extension of the franchise, the protected status of peoples were endangered, I would support the Amendment. But neither of those things is so. Let us consider first the protected status. In this I cannot do better than quote what my right honourable friend said in another place yesterday. He said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 612 (No. 8), col. 692]: … the pledge in the preamble"— that is, to the 1953 Constitution— is absolute, and I repeat the undertaking given by the Prime Minister in this House on 22nd July; 'The British Government will certainly not withdraw its protection from Nyasaland and Rhodesia in the short run, and in the long run our object is to advance these Territories to fully responsible government'. The Prime Minister went on to say that while the Legislatures of the two Northern Territories were constituted in their present stage to conduct their ordinary affairs, they would not be more than one element in the machinery which might be devised for the purpose of obtaining the views of the inhabitants. These pledges make it plain that changes in the franchise before the 1960 Review are unnecessary if the proposers of the Amendment had in mind that such changes would be a necessary safeguard against any change in the protected status of the Northern Territories.

Let me return to the proposition that without the extension of franchise the peoples will not be well heard: that their opinions before the Commission, or before the Conference, more importantly, will not be properly represented. In fact there are two avenues open to them. One will be the 1960 Conference, and the other is, of course, the Monckton Commission. This Commission will hear representatives of all the Parties from Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia, representatives of any significant branch of political opinion, whether or not they are in detention when the Commission is operating; and for those who so wish it, the Commission will be ready to publish their statements for one and all to know and to see. Could anything be mare fair?

This, my Lords, is one of the things which make the Commission and its 268 composition of such importance, bearing in mind its purpose—namely, to try to create both here and in Africa a common mind on the next stages of the political evolution in the Federation. We have made a great and fortunate start in having Lord Monckton of Brenchley as its chairman, and I know that all your Lordships join with me in expressing our gratitude to him for accepting this post. We—and I know that this also is true of the Federal Government and other Governments as well as ourselves—mean to have a Commission of the same high quality (if I may so put it) as the chairman, drawn not only from this country but also from the Commonwealth and the area of the Federation. For us all and when I say "all" I think of the Parties opposite, as well as others in this country—to support the Commission in every way, to ensure its best membership is, I believe, the best way to contribute to African confidence, which we all desire, and to the future wellbeing of the peoples of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland and to hasten the return to happier things in Nyasaland.

As for the other avenue for the peoples of the Northern Territories to make known their views, again I will quote what was said by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State yesterday. He said (col. 692): The Amendment presupposes that the Conference in 1960 will be between Governments, but that is not what Article 99 of the Constitution says. It is more explicit than that. It says that at the appropriate date: 'There shall be convened a conference consisting of delegations from the Federation, from each of the three territories, and from the United Kingdom Government chosen by their respective Governments for the purpose of reviewing this Constitution'. … at this distance of time it would … be premature to indicate how the delegations from the Northern Territories to this Conference may be chosen. But I think it is equally premature to assume, as the … Amendment did … that any such delegations would be drawn solely from the Government Benches in the Legislatures of those two Territories. My Lords, it has been a little difficult to know where to begin or where to end on this matter, because one might again go all over the ground on Nyasaland which has been debated so often recently in Your Lordships' House. I have therefore tried in the main to stick to the points raised—

§ THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, I wonder whether I might ask the noble Earl this question, because it is rather important. He said the representatives of the 1960 official Conference would not necessarily all be drawn from members of the Governments in these countries. Could he say whether the actual appointments here will be made by Her Majesty's Government here, as it was in the earlier ones, in both our time and in the Labour Government's time? Will the delegations which come from the Federation and the three territories be appointed by the respective Governments of those territories?

§ THE EARL OF PERTH

My Lords, I think the answer to that is, "Yes". Perhaps I might read just once more the actual sentence in Article 99. It says: There shall be convened a conference consisting of delegations from the Federation, from each of the three territories, and from the United Kingdom Government chosen by their respective Governments for the purpose of reviewing this Constitution".

§ THE EARL OF SWINTON

That is it, yes.

§ THE EARL OF PERTH

As I said, my Lords, I have tried in the main to deal in detail with the Amendment as it stands, but I should not wish it to be thought that we are not constantly seeking new ways to improve the situation and to return to more normal times. As your Lordships know, it was announced yesterday that the Governors of both the Northern Territories are shortly to come back to this country for consultation, and our aim, with them, is not only to get political life going again but, in conjunction with the Federal Government—and let us never forget our debt to the Federal Government—to improve in every way possible the lives of the people of Nyasaland, whether materially or in health and education.

I remember how, a short while ago, there was a good deal of surprised comment in the newspapers about the job that the Colonial Administration had been doing in Cyprus during the emergency, and how, despite all the difficult times, the real work of developing the country was going on. My Lords, this is, of course, true also of Nyasaland at the present time, and I should like to pay my tribute to the overseas service who are doing just this in Nyasaland at this 270 difficult time. Our hope is that, with such steps as the appointment of the Monckton Commission, and with the constant reiteration of our pledges that we stand by the people of the two Northern Territories, they will come to recognise that they have nothing to fear and that the way to progress is not by violence or by intimidation. Then, together, we can all go forward to the constitutional development and fully responsible self-government of Nyasaland that is our avowed aim and purpose.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, we have listened to a speech from the noble Earl which I think might be summed up as striving to put the best possible face on a bad case; and I must say that he certainly has not done anything towards convincing me, at any rate, that the excellent case put by my noble friend Lord Silkin has been properly answered, nor has he in any way avoided the final Division to which we must carry the House at the end of the debate. It is a pity he saw fit to chide my noble friend for not sticking to the Amendment. He seemed to me to wander very far from that in the first ten minutes of his own speech to your Lordships' House. Perhaps one part of it, referring to his personal friend the late Secretary of State, might well have been rendered direct to the Prime Minister before the decision to drop his Secretary of State, as he was then, altogether. However, we say that in the case of Nigeria no doubt great progress has been made.

§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME)

My Lords, I think the noble Viscount is being a little unfair. He is suggesting that my noble friend the late Secretary of State was dropped. I think the noble Viscount knows quite well that the late Secretary of State retired entirely of his own wish.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

Perhaps it might have been more truthful to say that there was a lack of pressure on him to retain his very successful management of the office. Apparently there was not very much pressure.

271 Now I will stick to the Amendment, if I may. I want these points in the Amendment really answered, and I feel certain that the noble Earl the Leader of the House will try to deal with them. On the general question, all sides of the House poured their hearts out in July. We on this side of the House were taking a very different view from some noble Lords on other sides of the House. We poured our hearts out, but we have not got any further on the way of getting our point of view met. For example, even in the last few days we have been told that Dr. Banda and other notable Africans of Nyasaland are to be kept interned indefinitely at the instigation of the Governor of the Protectorate only, until he is of the opinion that there will be no danger to law and order upon their release. I find that an astonishing conclusion to arrive at, in view of the terms of the Report of the Devlin Commission. They can find no case in fact to be delivered against this Christian African, Dr. Banda. It is an amazing thing that, in the year 1959, we should have wandered so far away from those democratic principles of liberty and justice that the British people have been brought up to know, to understand, and to work for at all times. My Lords, the state of emergency has been described as having lasted seven months. I correct the noble Earl on that. It is practically eight months now. I think it started on March 9: it is November 3 to-day; and still there is no move in this direction.

Might I ask the noble Earl who leads the House (whose genuine desire for the welfare of the Commonwealth we all know, and whose personal attitude to matters of religion and freedom we have always welcomed in this House) one very personal Scottish question: have the Government sent an answer yet to the Presbyterian Church of Scotland about Dr. Banda? Considerable pressure was brought upon them. I think the Duke of Hamilton went up to talk to them, and there was a good deal of pressure brought on them. Are they satisfied? It does not appear from the results of the Election in Scotland, whatever happened elsewhere, that on either unemployment or upon Nyasaland the Scottish elector is completely satisfied; and we are making no real progress in that matter.

272 The second point I would make to the noble Earl is this: that we are asking for the release or the trial of those who are incarcerated. Now the noble Earl, Lord Perth, referred to the fact, as if it was a matter of very great achievement, that, of the persons who have been treated as detainees, less than half remain in detention. From one point of view that is very good. I am speaking only in round numbers, but my recollection is that the number of people interned was between 1,300 and 1,350; that about 134 only of those have been the subject of a charge and a trial; that others have been let out at different times for all kinds of different reasons, but that to-day there remain in custody something like 560. Am I right?

§ THE EARL OF PERTH

I think very nearly right.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

As I said, I am speaking from memory. I must say that, after eight months, that is the most extraordinary position to be in; and I suggest that if you go on pursuing this kind of policy in Nyasaland then, instead of having an emergency period of eight months, you may get much nearer an emergency period of seven years, as in Kenya. I thoroughly believe in what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said: you simply cannot deal with these matters by repression. For example, if you read the leading article in the magazine Eastern World, you will note that in all parts of the world to-day the attitude of the British people and of the British Parliament to this problem of Africa is being watched very closely indeed. Asia, as well as Africa, is on the march: and to-day, in those countries where they are not Communist-controlled, they know that the only possible defence against Communism, and the only chance of getting anything like a free State for themselves in the future, is to see the success of social democracy—and they believe that they have as much right to it as anybody living in the United Kingdom. Therefore what we are doing in this matter is likely to be of vast importance to us, not only in Africa but also in the Eastern world with which we shall have continually to deal. When will the charges be made against these persons in 273 custody? Will the noble Earl please answer that for us? That is vastly important.

The third point is that we ask for an early and substantial extension of the franchise in Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia, so that the Governments of these Protectorates may truly represent their peoples at the proposed Conference on Central African Federation. If I understood the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Perth, aright, what he is suggesting is that there is no need for that; that we do not need to do anything before the 1960 Conference. What sort of actual representation will the 2¾ million of Africans in Nyasaland get in the Conference of 1960? There are certainly some Africans in the Legislature to-day, but how many of them are there by a vote which is in any way indicative of the feelings of the 2¾ million Africans?

Should I not be right in saying that you have only 8,000 whites in the Protectorate? What is the position of the balance of power in that Protectorate of the Crown? Apparently you want to drive the Africans into the Central Federation in pursuit of what is now called "the multi-racial policy." I must say that if you think you will ever get lasting peace from action of that kind, you are very wrong. I should have thought that by now the Government would have learned the lessons of the past, and the lessons of their own failures as well as of their successes. They have had both in their colonial policy during the last eight years.

What are we asking for? We are asking for an immediate—perhaps I am putting it too strongly—an early and substantial extension of the franchise in Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia. In another place yesterday it was pointed out that in the Federation at the present moment Sir Roy Welensky, acting as Premier of the Federation, is accorded, in that extraordinary qualitative vote you have in those areas, 37,000 votes out of 64,000, which gives him control of 44 seats. This is equal to the Prime Minister's controlling 45 per cent., or little less than half, of the total population of the territory. Is that the kind of basis on which you want to march forward towards social democracy in Central Africa? Apparently you have not learned anything from the attitude 274 of the Africans themselves. The Devlin Commission were perfectly clear about the view of the majority of the African people in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, although, of course, they were not talking in the main about Nyasaland. Therefore, it seems to me a very reasonable request to the Government to take steps now, in view of the ascertained facts, to so extend the suffrages of the people in these two Protectorates of our Crown that they may get a reasonable approach to representation in the Conference which is to take place, as at present suggested, in 1960.

It seems to me that at the present moment the African population has little foundation to rest upon in the different statements which have been made from time to time on behalf of the Government. I feel that it would be a good idea if the noble Earl the Leader of the House, when he comes to reply to the debate later on, would give us some clarification of the statement he made to the House on July 27, 1959—not merely in order to give us clarification but perhaps also to bring to the African population, a little more faith in what is really intended in the future, if that is possible.

The quotation I take first of all is from column 596 [Vol. 218] of our own OFFICIAL REPORT for July 27. It says: The conception is that as power is transferred from the United Kingdom in respect of the two Northern Territories it will be transferred not to the Federal Government but to the Governments of the two Northern Territories, which will progressively become more and more representative of Africans until they have African majorities. Later [col. 597], the noble Earl said: So it is clear to me, and I think it will be clear to your Lordships, that both here and in Africa there are the most widespread misconceptions, and that the process of public education is essential to enable people to have confidence in the action of Governments when the time for the review comes in 1960. I remember saying at the time that I found it rather difficult to follow what the noble Earl really meant to establish.

When we turn to the Observer of August 29 last—the House was in Recess and I way away then, and I had my attention brought to this only recently—it appears that Mr. Roberts, Minister of Labour and Mines in Northern Rhodesia, and spokesman for Roy 275 Welensky's United Federation Party, called Lord Home's declaration … a blast at the very foundations on which the present Northern Rhodesian Constitution has been built. That shows pretty clearly to me that we do need clarification of the situation in your Lordships' House, so that the African people may really understand.

§ THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, I wonder whether I can straight away clear up that point. I was not talking about African majorities in Legislatures. Of course, the whole object is that there should not be racial distinctions. That is what we have in mind: that in the Parliaments of these two territories there should be candidates from all Parties representing all races. What I had intended to convey was that the time was bound to come at some time in the future when there would be a majority of Africans exercising the vote in both territories. But I did not intend to talk about African majorities in Parliament.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, that seems to me to be what was concluded by the correspondent of the Observer when he wrote: Although Africans will in time constitute a numerical majority of Africans, Lord Home says that this is not the same thing as an African majority. Well, it is obvious why we differ so much at this moment. The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, should remember, when he asks us to state immediately our support of joining in the work of the Commission, that this is quite contrary to what the Africans are asking for and to what we ask for on their behalf, in the light of British experience—that is, to move at the earliest possible time to universal suffrage. We have not asked for that to be made in one immediate act. But if you could make, as my noble friend Lord Silkin clearly indicated by the terms of his speech, the first big approach to extending the suffrage of the people of these Protectorates, so that they might have a real voice in their Legislatures, who will be called upon to make their nominations to the Congress, whenever it is held, then you would be going a long way to achieving what every Party in this House agrees is necessary: that is, to restore confidence in the African popula- 276 tion as to what is going to be done in the future. Let the African have some confidence in the statements and the acts of the Government.

The noble Earl, Lord Perth, quoted the statement of the Prime Minister in another place about the protection of the people in the Protectorates. It is quite unclear to me at the moment how that protection is going to be exercised if at every stage you give way to the present Legislature of the Central Federation, which is dead against the progress that is the basis of the agitation and organisation of the African Congress in Nyasaland and in Northern Rhodesia. I do feel that the Government really must face up to the fact of this.

We are very desirous that we should be able on this occasion, as we have on so many previous occasions, whether foreign or colonial, to join in on a nonpartisan basis discussions for the purpose of advancement of the Commonwealth and for the growth of international peace. You force us by your attitude on these matters into a doubt and a withholding of our support, because you do not speak plainly and do not seem to feel and act in the human way which would bring justice to Africans, such as you would be expected to do for your own people. That, it seems to me, is really quite fatal. If you are going to get peace in these two Protectorates; if you are going to get peace in Africa as a whole; if you are going to get a real appraisement of the British position throughout the Eastern world, then you have got to come to that. When will you begin?

I hope that, as a result of this debate, when we have been forced to put down this Amendment to the loyal Address, the House as a whole will ask the Government to reconsider the position. Do not, for pity's sake, go and rush this 1960 Conference now, knowing what the native feeling is, before you are ready for it, and before the Africans have been given an opportunity to take part in making themselves ready for it. Give them their chance. Postpone the Conference for a couple of years; take your further soundings; and may the Legislatures then be able to give adequate nominations for the Conference which will make the recommendations for the 277 final decisions to be made! I do beg of the Government and the Whole House to take this into consideration.

I welcome the speech of my noble friend Lord Ogmore (I still call him my noble friend until he gets into other aspects of Liberal policy; and probably we shall always remain political friends—he has not been such a political enemy to-day—though I assure him that when he experiences the pursuit of the Manchester economy school of thought by the Benches up there he will not hold his radicalism very long), always full of information and of fine thought about the future. But I think he is making a mistake if he will not go as far as we want to go and get the decision made now for extending the suffrages of the people and giving them a real foothold in the climb they have to make, step by step, to their particular summit of independence and liberty.

§ LORD OGMORE

May I interrupt the noble Viscount? I hope he does not suggest that I am not accepting the Amendment; and that includes the early and substantial extension of the franchise.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

I am not thinking of that. What I am thinking of is the noble Lord's special word to the Government: that the Members of the House for whom he speaks to-day will be glad to co-operate even if they go only this far, or that far, or the other far. We want what is on the Paper; and I hope that, as he has given his generous assent to the movement of the Amendment, he will see the deeper and wider case we are putting to the House than that which he has already put on behalf of the Amendment.

I hope that, when we come to take the vote, we shall vote with our hearts as well as our minds. I am not at all sure where I would follow with all kinds of philosophy, such as religion and so on, the sort of conscience statement made by the noble Earl, Lord Perth, when he said that when conscience is matched against reason, reason must prevail. I thank God for the Wilberforces and the William Knibbs and all those who have led the common people over the years against those who have been holding 278 them down by reason and not by conscience. He hath put down the mighty from their seats: and hath exalted the humble and meek. He hath filled the hungry with good things: and the rich he hath sent empty away. That is the song of those who really hold to the full principle of human liberty.

§ LORD FRASER OF NORTH CAPE

Before the noble Viscount sits down, may I ask him whether he has ever been to Nyasaland?

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

I could ask the noble Lord all sorts of questions of the lands he has been to. He has been to many; and so have I. I have not visited Nyasaland—

§ LORD FRASER OF NORTH CAPE

I thought so.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

—but I know enough about the facts of life to understand the case that intelligent Africans put to us. Do you despise them?

§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

My Lords, it is with great diffidence that I follow four such distinguished and learned speeches as we have listened to this afternoon. I assure your Lordships that I shall not detain you long and I trust that you will feel that, although I am talking op a very wide aspect, it is to the point of the Amendment that we are debating. I am aware that, just as it is the duty of a Government to govern, so it is the duty of the Opposition to oppose. But I would humbly submit that that dictum is valid only when we are discussing our own affairs. When the matter under discussion is the welfare of the millions of Africans and the very many Asians and Europeans who live in Central Africa, then it ill becomes us to indulge in the pleasure of squabbling among ourselves. I feel that this is additionally so because I do not think that there is any deep point of principle dividing the two sides of this House; and that feeling has been much brought home to me in listening to the speeches we have heard so far this afternoon. After all, surely the Leaders of both Parties have exactly the same aim: they want to see these territories, Northern Rhodesia and 279 Nyasaland, brought fruitfully and peacefully to progress towards the eventual aim of self-government. They want to see those countries developed to bring their natural resources to their optimum and to see that peace and tranquillity prevail within the borders of those countries and above all else, they want to see a truly multi-racial society built up in those territories.

There are bound to be grave difficulties arising from the differences between these territories, both political and economic. Indeed, to my mind it is the very fact of these differences that makes it so essential there should be a Federation that really does work. To take one example, in theory no one would wish to deny to Nyasaland the right of eventual self-government. But, in point of fact, can that country economically ever develop itself as a viable State? I feel sure that the Leaders of both Parties are most anxious to achieve conditions under which these territories do advance at once towards a political independence, and eventually have that as their aim and goal.

§ LORD REA

If the noble Duke will forgive me, he mentions these ideals as being of both Parties, with which I quite agree. But I think we ought to include the Conservative Party as well.

§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

I thought the noble Lord was going to say that we must include the Liberals. What is vitally important in the development of these countries is that all races, European, African and Asian, should be adequately protected, and no one race should have undue advantage over any of the others. At the same time as the multi-racial society is developed, with goodwill and self-respect to each other, the rest should be built up, so that black may look to white and white to black for help and encouragement towards the achievement of what must be, if it is to be successful, a common aim. We cannot divorce the interests of one race from another in this problem.

I would repeat that the differences are those of degree and not of principle. There are differences as to how rapidly the rate of political advancement for the African should develop. But that is a matter of degree. There may be differences as to what safeguards should be 280 taken to see that the interests of the African are properly protected from being over-managed by the European. But again that is a matter of degree. It is not, after all, as if one side of the House wants to see a policy of apartheid, and the other side wants to see every European driven out of Central Africa. There is no basic difference of principle. Therefore I think we should be very ready to sink our Party differences so that those who live in these Territories may gain.

I am well aware that there are real difficulties in reconciling these Party differences, because people of genuine good faith and genuine integrity and ability do hold different views. But I think the goal is worth substantial sacrifices, because I feel that for these territories to have peace and progress it is essential that the political Parties in this country should agree. I can see no hope of any permanent settlement and permanent peace in Central Africa so long as there are differences of opinion in this House and another place.

After all, my Lords, let us look at it this way. Just as there are differences in this country, so are there grave differences between the factions in Central Africa, Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland. Surely, those factions in the territories will argue like this. They will say: "There is a Conservative Government in Britain at this moment, and we do not like their plans for the development of our territories. But let us wait. Let us adopt the tactic of prevarication, causing difficulties. Let us do anything, in fact, so long as we do not agree to these proposals, because we do not like them. In four or five years' time there will be another Election, and possibly the Socialist Party will be elected to office." I personally do not subscribe to that view, but that is how the Africans may well argue. They will say: "So long as we prevent any permanent settlement from taking place now, there may be a change of Government in Britain and we shall have a Government whose ideas for our future we find much more acceptable." Four years go by, and there is another Election, and by some remarkable achievement the Socialists are elected. Those factions in Central Africa who do not agree with this present Government's point of view will adopt exactly the same tactics, and so ad 281 infinitum, while all the while feeling in the territories gets worse and worse; and the longer the delay there is in creating a permanent settlement, the less likely chance there is of that settlement ever being achieved.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

May I ask whether all that means that the noble Duke is prepared to enforce this Federation upon them? We do not want to force them either one way or the other. We want the African people to decide for themselves.

§ THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

Very much the contrary. I am urging, to the best of my rather indifferent ability, a genuine wish to see a bipartisan policy for Central Africa which would require sacrifices from all sides.

Let us look at what the advantages would be if we could have a policy for Central Africa, for Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland, with all Parties subscribing to it. In Africa, just as in this country, no-one might think it ideal, but all political factions in the Central African Territories would realise that it was the best they could possibly hope for, because it was underwritten by all the Parties in this country. Once it was put over to them, as it would be very quickly, that they could not hope for anything better, no matter which Party in this country was in office, very soon a climate of opinion would be created in which all people who wished for the success of their country would sink their own differences and would work together for the successful conclusion of that policy. The example in this country, fashioned by all Parties, would soon be copied by the territories and all Parties there would support it, knowing that it was the best they could possibly hope for, and that if they did not work towards it they would be in a minority.

Before I close, I should like to say a word about the Conference which is to be held next year. Here we have a golden opportunity in which the blue print for the future of Central Africa may be written. We cannot afford to let that opportunity be wasted, because should that Conference fail then the opportunity may well not arise again. I say that, unless the British delegation to that Conference represents all views 282 and all Party opinions in this country, the value of the Conference will be seriously, if not disastrously, weakened.

Even more immediate is the question of the Commission to be presided over by the noble Viscount, Lord Monckton of Brenchley. This country's delegation to that Conference is to be eleven men. I think it is essential, if that Commission is properly to carry out its vital work in preparing the way for next year's Conference, that those delegates should represent all aspects of all British opinion in this country. Not only that: those delegates—as their leaders will, I hope, instruct them—must work out a common policy, so that when that Commission makes its Report there is not a Majority Report and a Minority Report. If that happens, then again, going back to the point I have already made, those in the Central African Territories who do not like the Majority Report will cling to the Minority Report and hope to get the Majority Report overruled at some future date.

Finally, I should like to refer to a point I made at the beginning of this speech, the great difference between squabbling about our own affairs and squabbling about affairs in which other people have a primary interest. In so far as Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland are concerned, we in this country are in the position of parents or guardians of a growing child. I do not have to remind your Lordships of the disastrous effect upon that child if its parents are continually squabbling in its presence. It has an even worse effect if the cause of those squabbles should be in the child's own future career. I can only describe it as an extremely unbecoming sight to see these Houses, the Mother of Parliaments, continually squabbling about the future well-being of millions of Africans, large numbers of Asians and Europeans, for whom they are in the position of trustees. After all, the well-being of those people in those territories is the first charge on the conscience on the people of this country, whether they be Conservatives, Socialists or Liberals. Therefore I would ask the Leaders of both Parties, very humbly but very sincerely, to remember that they are statesmen rather than politicians, and to sink their differences so that future generations living in Central Africa will have every reason to be 283 thankful to them for the way in which they have been guided to nationhood.

§ LORD MILVERTON

My Lords, in rising to offer a few comments on the Amendment before the House, I should like to say, to begin with, that I intend to confine my remarks entirely to the Amendment which is before the House. It is a great temptation, I know, to range more widely but I think time does not permit me. I would at the start say in a general way that I felt that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, tended to exaggerate very much indeed what they were pleased to call the state of unrest in Central Africa and the lack of confidence which they stated was general in the British Government and the British people out there. I notice on the list of speakers that there are speakers with a more recent knowledge of Nyasaland than mine, and I will leave it to them to say how mistaken that view is. There was one other general point, and that was the idea that the time for this Conference and the Inquiry was not now and that it would be better to postpone it. I am confident that if half the things that noble Lords opposite say are true, the sooner this sort of Inquiry and Conference takes place the better, in order to dissolve the doubts which seems to be left, according to those noble Lords.

§ LORD SILKTN

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, in view of the question which was asked my noble Leader and which I think ought to be asked of every speaker henceforth, when was the noble Lord last in Nyasaland?

§ LORD MILVERTON

Five years ago. I listened with intense interest to the speech of the noble Lord the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in this House, and I appreciate that, holding the views that he does, he no doubt felt impelled to unload them at the earliest possible moment. Whether this is a suitable opportunity, and whether an Amendment to the humble Address to Her Majesty is really a suitable channel, is not a matter for me to say. I recognise the sincerity with which he speaks and I hope that nothing that I am about to say will be felt by him as impugning that sincerity. What I want to question very much indeed is the underlying idea in those speeches that 284 Protectorates should be governed from Westminster and that the moral responsibility of Parliament should be extended to executive control by a body totally unqualified to exercise that control. A state of emergency cannot be ended by mere words; nor can it be dissolved by just releasing the human causes of it. That, to my mind, would be a negation of government. I seems to me to be easy for the Opposition to slip into the fallacy that controls which are exercised by their Party when in office are a reasonable use of the power of government, but controls exercised by the Conservative Party when it happens to form a government are repressions. After all, there are fundamental principles of government which apply whichever Party may be in charge of national affairs, and there are controls which in the interests of law and order must apply if those forming a Government are not to betray the very foundations of authority itself.

The second part of the Amendment before the House contains a very questionable assumption. The kind of early and substantial extension of the franchise as envisaged by noble Lords opposite would be far more likely to ensure that the Governments of these Protectorates did not truly represent their people than that they would so represent them. I know that the noble Lord and his Party really believe, apparently, that Central Africa is peopled by millions of black Africans who have reached the same standard of enlightenment as the people in this country, who have the same standard of values and the same belief in freedom under the law. That, my Lords, is simply not true. Noble Lords opposite would, unwittingly no doubt, open the floodgates of every kind of intimidation from witchcraft to personal violence, and if they had their way they would find themselves in bewildered contemplation of the chaos they had created.

§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH