HL Deb 24 March 1959 vol 215 cc198-362

2.48 p.m.

LORD OGMORE rose to draw attention to the unrest in Nyasaland, and to the urgent need for the appointment of a Parliamentary Commission to consider and report upon this situation; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Opposition have put down this Motion for to-day owing to the serious situation in Central Africa and, in particular, in the Protectorate of Nyasaland. I am sure the events that have transpired in the Protectorate are regretted on all sides of the House and that the people of Nyasaland have our full sympathy. Much anxiety has been shown by the public in this country over these events, and I personally hardly ever remember a case where so much anxiety has been shown and has manifested itself so quickly. On March 3 I moved, on behalf of the Opposition, a Motion on the Adjournment. That is a rather rare event in your Lordships' House, but it was necessitated by reason of the fact that that day a state of emergency had been declared in Nyasaland.

In the course of the debate I urged the noble Earl, Lord Perth, to go forthwith to Nyasaland in order to bring to bear his calming influence on the situation there. I am glad to say that although he did not accept our invitation at the moment it was given, he did so shortly afterwards. We are grateful to him for going to Nyasaland; we welcome him back, and we await with eagerness his report.

It is our wish to-day that the debate in this House should be objective and reasoned. The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, the Lord President of the Council, has accused the Opposition of being hysterical. I can assure the noble Viscount and his colleagues that there is no hysteria whatsoever on these Benches. The allegation is that there have been plots in Nyasaland to carry out violence and the massacre of Europeans, Asians and moderate African leaders, such plots having been the work of the African National Congress; that, as a result of these plots, widespread unrest and disturbances have occurred, but that the massacres were forestalled by a declaration of a state of emergency. There are, therefore, certain issues at stake. First, what injury to persons and what damage to property has, in fact, taken place, whether by the rioters or by the security forces? Secondly, to what extent was the African National Congress implicated in these events? Thirdly, what were the causes of the unrest; and, fourthly, was there in fact a massacre plot?

Nyasaland, as your Lordships know, is a land area roughly the size of Scotland. It is land-locked, so far as communications with the sea are concerned. It lies in a belt along the western shore of Lake Nyasa. It has a population of 2,648,000, of which some 7,000 are Europeans. It might almost be called a Scottish Colony, if there were such a thing, because for some sixty years and more Scotland has been intimately concerned with this Protectorate. The first contact Scotland and we had with Nyasaland was in the figure of David Livingstone, that great Scotsman. After him came the Church of Scotland and its missionaries. For a time the missionaries found that they had not only to preach the Gospel—which, of course, they did, and continue to do—but also to act as traders and administrators, because there were no others. But in time some of their compatriots in the business community in Scotland followed, and there was thus not only a spiritual connection with Scotland but a material one as well. Undoubtedly the missions saved Nyasaland from the slave trade, and I am glad to see to-day that quite a number of Scottish Peers are to speak. No doubt they will emphasise the long connection that Nyasaland has had with Scotland.

Unfortunately, in spite of all their efforts the people remain poor. The country is a poor country. The exports are mainly agricultural, and the labour force which leaves every year for work elsewhere brings a considerable contribution to the economy of the territory. In 1957, the revenue was £8,267,000 and expenditure £8,420,000. There is need for economic development and for training of leaders. In fact, I understand that only one barrister and one physician are at present qualified from Nyasaland. There are no other professional men. No district officer comes from the African community, and there are no business executives. So it does not seem that we have overdone higher education in Nyasaland.

The background to the trouble is this. There has been unrest—there is no question about that; it is admitted on all sides—and a state of emergency was declared on March 3. As a result, the Nyasaland African Congress was proscribed and its leaders detained. In all, 447 have been detained under the Emergency Regulations; and of those people some were detained in Nyasaland and some were sent down to Southern Rhodesia. In the Adjournment debate to which I have referred, I protested at the removal of these Africans to Southern Rhodesia, and in this I was supported by the noble Lord, Lord Boothby. I should like to know under what authority they were so deported. The noble Earl, Lord Perth, said that they would remain under the Governor's control, but how can this be? How can the Governor control them in a territory over which he has no jurisdiction? It seems to us as if both the Governor and the Secretary of State for the Colonies have lost legal control over these men. But whatever the legal position may be, in our view it was a grievous blunder, owing to the known antipathy of the Africans in Nyasaland to elements in Southern Rhodesia. Arising out of the disturbances, some fifty Africans have been killed by the security forces, and an unknown number injured. Some of the security forces have been injured.

As to the reasons for unrest, the noble Earl, Lord Perth, is reported to have said in Africa—and I quote him: Among Africans I found a great deal of opposition to federation. In 1953, African opinion was averse to federation, as is stated in paragraph 6 of the White Paper which the Government published yesterday. In both Houses the Opposition at that time informed the Government of this fact, and warned them not to go on with their federation proposals in the teeth of African opposition. Speaking on behalf of the Opposition in your Lordships' House in April, 1953—and I quote it because it was at that time the view of the Opposition—I said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 181, col.512]: In conclusion, I beg the Government to pause while there is yet time, and not to blunder on with this plan, irrespective of African wishes. And I say to the Government: 'Pause until you can take Africans with you. If you cannot do that, drop the plan.' It would involve no loss of prestige—indeed, the Government would gain prestige. To go the other way means disaster: disaster for the Africans and disaster for us.

Those were our views in 1953. The result of forcing federation on the Africans has undoubtedly been a loss of confidence in the United Kingdom Parliament by them; a feeling of betrayal by the United Kingdom Government; a lessening of friendship for the British people; an intensification of their fear of Southern Rhodesia and an enormous quickening of political feeling and organisation. This last is admitted in paragraph 6 of the White Paper to which I have referred.

Now we come to the alleged massacre plot—a very serious allegation by the Government in Nyasaland and the Government here, as stated by the Secretary of State in another place on March 3. As to this alleged massacre plot, the onus is on the Government here and on the Government of Nyasaland to prove it. It is not on the Africans or anyone else to disprove it. We all know that it is practically impossible to disprove a negative. Some preliminary thoughts occurred to us in this field before we actually saw the White Paper, but they have been re-emphasised since reading it.

First of all, let us consider Dr. Hastings Banda, the leader of the Nyasaland African Congress. To me, Dr. Banda seems rather an unlikely revolutionary leader. We have known many revolutionary leaders in the last twenty years, but none of them has been remotely like Dr. Banda. He left Nyasaland when he was twelve, a very poor boy, and walked down to the Union of South Africa, where he received certain further education and then he went on to the United States, where he completed medical training. He practised for many years in this country, in Kilburn, which, as your Lordships may know, is a district to the North of Oxford Street, reached by the Edgware Road. I understand that his patients were almost entirely European and that they found him a kind and considerate physician. When he arrived back in Nyasaland, Dr. Banda, it seems, was unable to speak in public in his original language and had to address meetings in English. Taking him all in all, he does not seem the type of person one would expect to lead a revolutionary plot and engage in activities of a bloodthirsty kind involving the murder of Europeans, including the Governor and moderate African leaders.

And then we come to Mr. Kanyama Chiume, a member of the Nyasaland Legislature and publicity secretary of the Nyasaland African Congress. As your Lordships will know, Mr. Chiume was one of the four leaders who were said to have been named, if Dr. Banda was arrested, as the leaders to run Congress in his absence and to fix the day when violence was to begin and massacres to start—that is, according to the White Paper, "R-Day". Mr. Chiume has said that he knew nothing whatever about this plot. He had never heard of it. If there had been such a thing he would have heard of it; and in any case they would not have been so inept as to conduct a massacre campaign of this kind and turn world opinion against them. My Lords, it may be said that deeds speak louder than words, and there is one curious deed on the part of Mr. Chiume, which we ought to recognise. At this important time, when Dr. Banda was about to be arrested and Mr. Chiume was to be the leader to conduct this massacre plot, where was Mr. Chiume? He was on a slow boat taking a five-weeks' voyage from London to the East Coast of Africa. When these events broke out Mr. Chiume had reached Mombasa. He got off the boat and wisely flew back to this country. It seems odd that if he was to occupy this important place he should put himself on a boat which would take five weeks to get to his home port.

The next point I would like to bring to the attention of the House is that for eight whole days the Northern Province was in the hands of Africans. Police were withdrawn, but no one was killed; few were injured, and there was no massacre of anybody. It is admitted in the White Paper, in paragraph 37, that Congress activity has been most violent and effective in areas such as the Northern Province where Congress organisation was strongest. Yet in that place, where the police had been withdrawn and the Africans had full authority for eight days, no massacres whatever took place. The airport was retaken by the Tanganyika police before a state of emergency was declared; and the fifty Africans have all been killed since the state of emergency. Lastly, we come to the attitude of the Church of Scotland and its missionaries. We shall hear more about this in the course of the debate, but such reports as I have seen have not supported the case for a massacre plot.

The attitude of the Opposition, as in all such cases, is to criticise the course of action the Government are taking if we consider thatcourse of action to be wrong. We have been strongly condemned for criticising the Government in this case, again by the noble Viscount the Lord President of the Council. He criticised in strong terms.But I should like to make this point. The criticism of the Government's action by the Opposition, so far from weakening Britain's position abroad, actually strengthens it. It certainly does a great deal to bring a salutary effect on opinion overseas, not least in the country affected. It does to some extent redress the appalling effect of statements like that of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Jeffreys who, speaking in the debate on the defence plan on March 10, said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 214 (NO. 48), col. 889]; When all is said and done, in spite of nuclear weapons, conventional armaments are necessary, if only for minor operations or for policing work. Take, for instance Cyprus or Nyasaland. We do not want to annihilate the inhabitants but we do want to teach them a good lesson which will not be forgotten. I regard that as a very shocking statement to make at a time like this, and I do not regard the British Army's job to be to "teach people lessons." The Army hate being called in to aid the civil power, and when they are it is to restore order or to maintain it. It is not to teach lessons, with or without weapons.

We are glad that the White Paper is before the House, and we are grateful to the noble Earl and his colleagues for getting it out so quickly. The great interest in it was shown by the queues at the Printed Paper Office—the first time in my experience that that has happened. It was like waiting for hot cakes. What we have to ask ourselves is, first, whether the White Paper contains sufficient evi dence to satisfy the imposition of a state of emergency, and secondly, whether there is in it sufficient evidence of a massacre plot. In the view of the Opposition it is a most unconvincing document to put before the House and the country. The so-called massacre plot is based on circumstantial evidence unsupported 'by any verifiable fact. What is more, the plot is quite inconsistent with the events that have occurred in Nyasaland during the past two months. It is remarkable, if the Africans are so anti-European, as is alleged, and intended to massacre Europeans, that no such murders or attempted murders have taken place. There are large areas of the territory where district commissioners, planters and their wives and children are living in isolation and no serious assaults have been committed on them. Of that we are, of course, all very glad.

We shall all agree, whatever our views have been in the past, that there is a great need to restore confidence among the Africans of Nyasaland in the United Kingdom Parliament and Government, and in the good will of the British people. In order that this may be broughtabout, the following events should, in our view, take place. First the return of the Southern Rhodesian troops and police and the Federal troops to Southern Rhodesia; and, secondly, the bringing back of the detainees from Southern Rhodesia to Nyasaland at once. Thirdly, as soon as practicable the publication of the new Nyasaland Constitution, as the Government have been pressed to do by the Opposition since October, 1957, and again definition of the Government's attitudeto the 1960 Conference.

I think I ought to say a word about that, because undoubtedly this will form some part of our consideration to-day. The Labour Party hasgone on record as to the preliminary steps which should be taken and as to the attitude towards the 1960 Conference over Central Africa, and this is what the Labour Party have said: The Labour Party regards itself as completely bound by the Preamble to the Constitution, which declares that the people of Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland should continue to enjoy separate government under the special protection of Her Majesty for as long as their respective peoples so desire. Labour believes there should be a review of the powers of the federal and territorial governments so that theposition of the protectorates is safeguarded. We reaffirm the pledge that dominion status shall not be conceded until all the inhabitants of the Federation have expressed a desire for it through the exercise of full and equal democratic rights. In older to enable African views to be more effectively expressed at this Conference and as a step towards full democracy, the Labour Party believes that Africans in Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland must now be given opportunities for much greater participation in their governments. To this end it urges immediate constitutional reforms to ensure a majority of elected Africans in the Nyasaland Legislative Council and the appointment of African Ministers equal in number to those of other races. In Northern Rhodesia there should be parity of representation between Africans and other races in both the Legislative and Executive Councils. Labour also believes that the franchise in both territories should be broadened immediately as an instalment of progress towards a common roll and full adult suffrage. So far as Northern Rhodesia is concerned, the Government have a very great opportunity this week to put African Ministers on the Executive Council there.

Last, but perhaps most important of all, certainly a very important matter at this stage, so far as Nyasaland is concerned, is the appointment of a Commission of inquiry. We of the Opposition believe that the sending of a Commission of Inquiry to Nyasaland in the very near future is essential for the reasons I have already given. Various types of Commission have been suggested and various precedents have been canvassed, but we believe that every case is different and every case must stand on its own feet. I suppose that there are three types of Commission, all of which have certain factors in their favour: the judicial Commission, the Parliamentary Commission, and what one might call the mixed Commission, some judicial personages and some not. The Labour Party, after considerable consideration and discussion, came down on the side of the Parliamentary Commission, because they felt that from the Africans' point of view they would welcome a Parliamentary Commission, as it would appear to them less aloof and formal than a judicial Commission. We felt that their pride had undoubtedly been hurt; they felt to some extent we had abandoned them, and for those reasons and because many of the considerations were likely to be political ones, the Labour Party considered that it would be better to have a Parliamentary Commission than a judicial one.

Furthermore, it is essential, I believe, that now or perhaps at a later stage— at all events at some stage well before the constitutional conference—Parliamentarians should have the opportunity of going to Nyasaland and considering these matters, because in 1960 Parliament in this country, in conjunction with the other authorities concerned, will have before them the whole question of the future of Central Africa including Nyasaland. The mare Parliamentarians get to know of the problems before 1960 the better. It was for those reasons that the Labour Party felt that of the various types of Commission, all of which have things to be said for them, in all probability the Parliamentary Commission would be the most suitable in those particular circumstances. I would emphasise that the main point is to get the Commission of Inquiry out there as soon as possible. It is not in this case, I feel, only a question of getting to know the facts; just as important, if not more important, is the need to know the feelings which lie behind the facts. I beg to move for Papers.

3.15 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH)

My Lords, I think first we should all welcome the objective way in which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has moved this Motion. After all, this is not, I feel convinced, a matter of Party politics. Rather have we all got to try to get to the bottom of things and find out what is the right course. I have been wondering how best I might help your Lordships in this debate. I have wondered about that quite a lot, not only in the aeroplane when I was coming over but also on the ground when I was trying to get here and was being delayed between my flights. I came to the conclusion that it would probably be most helpful if I divided my speech into three parts, the past, the present and the future.

First, the past. Many of your Lordships will have read the White Paper. I do not think that, broadly, it is appropriate for me to comment on what is there; the record speaks for itself. I would, however, make just one remark. I am quite clear that, apart from the issue of the massacre plot, events, as shown in the White Paper, were getting completely out of control in Nyasaland. It was clearly the duty of the Governor to take measures to restore law and order.

To this end, as we have read, he sought the help of the Federal Government. The Federal Government, as we should expect, responded to this call and sent up Federal troops, and police also. At that time many people in this country accused the Federal Government of a deliberate plot somehow to take over control of Nyasaland. No one can now substantiate that. But, my Lords, the harm has been done. Many people in Africa, and more particularly in Southern Rhodesia, are bitterly resentful of such accusations. Southern Rhodesians are loyal Britishsubjects, and I think that these accusations are both wrong and damaging to all our interests. I want to take the opportunity to thank the Federal Government and the Southern Rhodesian Government for providing the troops and the police. Without them there would undoubtedly have been grave trouble, grave disorder and loss of life; indeed, this was already happening.

Now let me come to the present. It was, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, says, only three weeks ago that we had a debate in this House on the Adjournment when, as he has recalled, he urged that I should go out to Nyasaland. Her Majesty's Government said that if they thought conditions were right they would be only too ready to arrange for that to happen. In due course I got my instructions, and I went there.I remember that in that debate Lord Ogmore said he thought it was important for a Minister of the Crown to go out, so as to show the people of Nyasaland that they were not a forgotten people. I must say that I did find in one memorandum put to me the phrase, "Britain does not take Nyasaland seriously." So I was glad to be there, and I took special pains, in the four days that I was there. to travel widely over the country.

I went to all the three Provinces—the Northern Province, the Central Province and the Southern Province. I saw not only such people as district commissioners or provincial commissioners but many of the military forces, not in action but on active service, trying to protect the people and to keep things under control. I also saw many of the police. If any of your Lordships had had the good fortune to be there and to have seen the troops, he would have known that they did not treat their job in any punitive sense; rather were they there performing essentially a police operation. There was no spirit of vindictiveness or any such thing—very much the opposite.

Then I saw several of the African Chiefs. I saw many other Africans, both politicians and civil servants. I saw them as individuals and not as Party members, because at that time it was clearly not appropriate to discuss Party matters. I also saw representatives of theChurches—not of all the Churches that I should have liked, but representatives, in particular, of the Church of Scotland. Unhappily, as I shall show later in my speech, I was not able to get up to Livingstonia, but I was in contact with Mr. Macpherson, of Livingstonia. Last, and of course not least, I saw the Governor and those around him. I would take this opportunity of saying that he and they were doing what one would expect —a quiet, efficient and good job. I also went to visit three of the detainee camps. I thought it was important to see how they were run. Remember, my Lords, the whole thing was done very hurriedly. What I saw filled me with satisfaction. Those who were looking after the detainees were volunteers. They were men of humanity, who did not like the job but were there to do it. In the circumstances, the conditions were, I am sure, satisfactory to one and all.

What did I learn from my visit? First of all, it became clear to me at the time —and this has been confirmed since—that, broadly, we can hope that the situation now will be under control. It is true that there will still have to be certain operations to establish authority in one or two of the areas; but, on the whole, I think there is a fair chance that no new serious incidents will occur. There can be no certainty on this. After the events that have occurred, matters could suddenly flare up again; but I think we can hope for better things. The Federal Government are now wanting to withdraw their troops which have been in Nyasaland only for the purpose of reestablishing law and order; and that as we know, is already in hand: not all the troops at once, of course—one cannot do that, because one has to go steadily and carefully.

In talking to many of the Africans, I found how widespread had been the intimidation of them. A peculiar fact was that almost everyone I talked to had had this threat in one form or another, and particularly those who were ordinary Government servants. Several of them I talked to had been stoned; others had had their families threatened. Many of them had feared to go to work. That was true not only of those working in the Government, but it was also true of many ordinary villagers and country people. There were various gangs—young "teddy-boys" is perhaps the best way of describing them—who gathered together and if they saw any body in their way, stopped them, interfered with them and intimidated them. There was no doubt of the great relief that ran through the country when the emergency was declared and this type of activity was stopped.

Then I found that there was undoubtedly widespread support of one kind or another for Congress. I asked myself why. I came to the conclusion that it was for perhaps three main reasons. One of these was the intimidation about which I have already spoken. It may seem strange to your Lordships here that intimidation by a relatively small group of people can be effective. Here, we think in terms of order—we have the police at hand to whom we can appeal, and so forth. But it is not the same in Nyasaland; and there the fear caused by one man, riding around a village on a bicycle, saying: "You had better be careful or something terrible will happen to you", is extraordinary, and real.

The second reason for the widespread backing of Congress is, I think, that quite a few of the young who have been educated, not to top but none the less to reasonable standards, are extremely ambitious. They had the feeling that here was a chance for them if they supported Congress—that very soon they were going to find jobs at the top; that is what they were after. The third reason was undoubtedly the fear of federation. That, I believe, was the widest fear, and I will come back to it, if I may, in a moment.

We all deplore the tragic incidents that occurred, the loss of life that we know about. In certain cases we were desperately unlucky. I well recall the incident at Nkata Bay. I understand that no fewer than twenty people were killed. The district commissioner when faced by an angry crowd, showed extraordinary courage. He was trying to stop them breaking through to overwhelm a boat which was waiting to set sail, and on which there were various prisoners. For an hour and a quarter, while the crowd grew ever more threatening, he parleyed with them and kept them from advancing. He did all he could to play for time, because he knew, since he had sent for them, that a relieving force was on the way to try and establish order. But when, finally, he could no longer hold out, his few troops—I think they numbered eight or ten altogether—had to open fire. At that moment there came over the hill, not more than 400 yards away, the relieving force. It was tragic bad luck. Two minutes more and the disaster might have been avoided. That is the kind of thing which has bedevilled us; but I would pay great tribute to the courage of so many of the district commissioners.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

THE EARL OF PERTH

Lastly, my Lords, I would say one word about the Chiefs. I saw several of them, and I remember well one of the older ones saying to me with pride, "We are British Chiefs." He went on to talk about a leader whom he did not mention by name, but he was talking of Dr. Banda. He said that he did not understand how this leader could do these things to his people; that he had caused great upset and unrest in the country, and that was not the way for a Chief to behave. He could be no Chief if he did that. That is the simple faith of these Chiefs and that is the simple way in which they reason. I am sure that it is a reasoning which will appeal to all of your Lordships. Our policy at the present time is to do all we can to restore the authority of the Chiefs which is seriously threatened by Congress activities. As a matter of policy, troops or police are going to the district of every Chief in every area for the purpose of being seen and of making clear that authority is once again restored.

Now let me turn to what is the most important thing—namely, the future. First, whenever we can, we are going to prosecute the wrongdoers; and I have seen in the Press to-day that those prosecutions have already started. That will take time, for it is difficult to make all the arrangements for such prosecutions. One thing which the Governor particularly asked was whether we could supply one or two additional magistrates. That will show that we want to get on with it. There is no doubt that British justice is very highly regarded in the territory and we want to do nothing to weaken this belief in British justice.

The noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, asked me about the detainees, suggesting that they should be brought back from Southern Rhodesia straight away. But Nyasaland is a small country, and the prisons for these detainees are not available there. We have seen that when detainees were known to be in one place or another there were demonstrations, organisation of crowds, rioting and so forth. Is it seriously suggested that at this moment we should risk all that happening again? Surely we should wait. At the right time the Governor will decide when they should come back, and, as I said three weeks ago, they can comeback at that time.

LORD OGMORE

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl forgiving way. If these detainees had to be sent out of Nyasaland, why send them to Southern Rhodesia?

THE EARL OF PERTH

It was a convenient place to which to send them, because the prisons were available in Southern Rhodesia.

Next, as to the future, let us turn to what is going to happen in the political field. Our aim is to advance, and we intend to go as fast as we can in the Africanisation of the Civil Service. I saw quite a few Africans in positions of responsibility, though not so many as Ishould like, for things cannot always go as fast as we should like;but we certainly intend to have more Africans gaining administrative experience with all possible speed and we hope, although it may not come at once, that we shall soon have some as Ministers in the Government.

Already there has been a start in the resumption of normal political life. We have had Mr. T. D. Banda—who must not be confused with Dr. Banda—and Mr. Wellington Chirwa, who is a member of the Legislative Council, joining forces; and it is right that we should see political Parties coming together and actively pursuing their policy—even if one does not agree with it—so long as it is not a revolutionary and subversive policy. In fact the policy of these two people is also against federation but that we do not mind. What we do mind is any resort to terrorism to prevent federation.

Why is there this great fear of federation which I found, not only in Nyasaland but also in a lesser degree in Northern Rhodesia? People may ask, "Why, if this opposition to federation is so widespread, do we force it upon the people? Why give them something that they do not want?" My answer to that would be that if the people fully understood the issue then I have no doubt they would think differently, and I will try to show your Lordships why I have that belief. We mustgo back a little in history. Unhappily, about 1950 or 1951 when the idea of federation was first mooted by the Labour Party, it got off to a bad start in Nyasaland for a curious reason. When the proposal was put forward the Governor was instructed to ask the people, through his district commissioners, what they thought of federation;but he was not asked to give any indication of whether the Government thought it was a good thing.

Always before in the history of the country when a district commissioner put forward a proposal the Chief and others of the country would ask his opinion, saying, "Do you think this is a good thing?" Knowing the integrity of the overseas Civil Service, when the answer came they were satisfied. On this occasion many of the Chiefs asked that question but got no answer, for the district commissioners were under instructions to give no answer, and the result was that the people immediately become excessively suspicious, for they said, "If you do not say it is a good thing then it must be a bad thing." From that moment opposition to the idea of federation become widespread. That is the history and there is no doubt that we got off to a very bad start.

What were the two reasons which made people so fearful at that time? They were told that the land of the country was to be grabbed by the Europeans. What are the facts since that time? Whereas then there were, I believe, one million acres in European hands, there are to-day 500,000 acres. So much for that fear. The other fear was that in some way or other Salisbury would take over the running of the country under federation and would swamp the Civil Service and so on. But that has not happened either.

Now let us look on the other side. What are the benefits that have come from federation? First let us remember, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has said, that while Nyasaland is a country very lovely to look at—it might well be Scotland—it is also a small and a poor country. It is over-populated and there is already unemployment. If numbers of the people of Nyasaland could not go to Southern Rhodesia or Northern Rhodesia to work it would be disastrous for them. The country could not survive for it could not support the Government services that it has to-day. Its medical facilities, its transport and many other things are provided by the Federal Government from revenues which would not otherwise be available to Nyasaland. It is roughly true to say that nearly a half of the total revenues which are spent in Nyasaland come from the Federal Government as a result of federation. Can we imagine the situation if the Federation were to end? It may be said that material benefits are not important; that what counts are the moral issues, the fears; and in some degree I would accept that. But it is also important for the people to know just how serious would be their material position if federation came to an end; and I am quite sure none of them has that appreciation or realisation.

What is it that they fear? As I say, it is somehow a fear of the unknown, a fear that they are going to be swamped, taken over by Southern Rhodesia. But there is no ground for that fear, any more than there was ground for the fear that they were going to lose their land. Let us look at the pledges contained in the Preamble to the Constitution of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland of 1953. Let us remember that again and again Government spokesmen have, without qualification, said that they stood by the Act. What is perhaps the key pledge is in the Preamble, which states the following: Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland should continue under the special protection of Her Majesty to enjoy separate Governments for as long as their respective peoples so desire. What could be more specific and more binding, more of a protection for the peoples who are all the inhabitants of those territories, as my noble friend Lord Chandos made clear?

It has been suggested at one time or another that we should state now how the desire of the people should be ascertained, if there was any question of withdrawing Her Majesty's special protection. But I am sure that your Lordships will agree it is not practicable at this stage to try to lay down what method should be adopted for ascertaining this. The pledges are specific; they are enshrined in the Preamble to the Federal Constitution; and we accept the Act in its entirety, not just one part or another. So fear of the Federation, fear of the 1960 talks, again seems to me unreasoning and without foundation.

I may be asked, what does the future hold for the two States which are under our special protection? Nyasaland, your Lordships will know, has some 2,700,000 African inhabitants and a handful of Europeans and Asians. Can anyone doubt that in due time the Africans will be in the majority in the Government? Mr. Wellington Chirwa, in a memorandum which he submitted to me, speaks of a "Black State". For my part I greatly prefer not to think in terms of "black" and "white", but of a Nyasaland State in which all are in a working partnership and make their contribution to the welfare and progress of the country. Mr. Macpherson of Livingstonia, whom I was unhappily unable to see—I tried to get up to him and he tried to come to me, but it just was not possible—sent me a message as to their views; and after asking that there should be an increased African participation in the Legislative Council and Executive Council, he went on to state that it was essential that there should be a guaranteed way open for self-government within a stated period without the threat of the whip-hand from Salisbury.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

THE EARL OF PERTH

There it is again, my Lords; fear of the threat of the whip-hand from Salisbury. But I have already tried to say that there is no foundation for that, either in practice as to the past, or in the future in the light of the pledges.

Let us just look at Salisbury, which is the seat of the Federation as well as of the Southern Rhodesian Government. Other noble Lords will know far better than I can about the position there. I know that my noble friends, Lord Malvern and the Duke of Montrose, have both especially come over for this debate. This is more than welcome. I would say only one thing: that the policy there is essentially different from the policy of South Africa. In South Africa, unhappily, the policy is one of segregation and of keeping the Africans out of the political arena; but in Southern Rhodesia and in the Federation, the position is absolutely the opposite. Their purpose is to bring the Africans into partnership. Maybe some will say it is not fast enough. Bat the fears I have referred to above generate other fears, and the cry that we should get on with things faster than is prudent very naturally creates the opposite fear in the minds of other people, who resist progress just because of such a fear.

I will say just one word on Northern Rhodesia, because I think that one wants to get the whole of this pattern. I was there for two days at the very end of the election campaign. I only wish that many of your Lordships could have been there at the time. It was a most remarkable experience. It has not been written up very much, as far as I can see, in the papers; but there one really found the whole community all working to the one end of winning an election. It did not matter whether you were an African or whether you were European; one found the Africans addressing meetings of Europeans; one found Europeans addressing meetings of Africans; one found Africans and Europeans both on the same hustings, talking to an audience which would be made up of both races. It was a most heartening experience. It was the beginning of what we all hope for: partnership in the political and the creative work of developing the countries. To me it was a tangible and exciting proof of what we should all wish for and hope for. I will say one other word on Northern Rhodesia. There your Lordships will remember that the Zambia Congress was banned. The Zambia Congress also threatened intimidation and was broadly favouring violence, and when they were proscribed the relief throughout the country was remarkable. They had been following the same pattern as the Congress Party in Nyasaland; but action was taken in good time, and I did not find one person, African or European, who was not immensely relieved at the removal of the threat.

My Lords, I do not believe that this question of federation should be one for Party politics. At the same time I cannot help but be puzzled when I find some strange bedfellows advocating secession from the Federation. I have particularly in mind some of the members of the Labour Party—I am not saying that this is official Labour Party policy—and many others (perhaps I should say) of the Left; many people who I know believe sincerely that it is a right policy but who believe it for the wrong reasons; and then we get others of a quite different Party, of the extreme Right, I think one might say, also advocating it. I have in mind The Dominion Party of Southern Rhodesia. That is something which is very curious and I cannot help but feel that there is something wrong there.

It is only six years since this experiment began. I am reminded, when I think of how little time it has been going, of Pilgrim's Progress of Timorous Mistrust, who turned back, and even more of Pliable. If we have such ill speed at our first setting out, what may we expect between now and the journey's end?". Like Christian, I feel I must venture. Are there any great things which have been achieved in a short time! Let us think for a moment,for example, of the Trade Union Movement in this country, or of universal suffrage. These were not achieved in six years. If people lose heart at the end of a short period, I believe we must go on and hopethat, in time, people will understand just what is of value, and what is the meaning of federation. I am confident that our policy must continue to be federation.

I am convinced that it is for the good of the people, and I have tried to show why I have this conviction. At the same time, we are deeply concerned with the fear of federation that prevails in Nyasaland; and, in view of past history and present events, we face a most difficult task in restoring the confidence of the people—and, indeed, in satisfying opinion in this country.

Towards the end of his Motion, the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has called for a Parliamentary Commission to consider and report upon this situation. Others, in the Press and elsewhere, have called for a Commission of Inquiry. Her Majesty's Government, for their part, have equally, over the last two weeks, considered what can be done. Indeed, one of the first topics I discussed with the Governor in Nyasaland was this very matter. The Governor is now satisfied that conditions have improved to such an extent that, with the approval of Her Majesty's Government, he is setting up a Commission of Inquiry into recent events in Nyasaland, whose terms of reference are as follows: To inquire into the recent disturbances in Nyasaland and the events leading up to them, and to report thereon. Mr. Justice Devlin has agreed to serve as Chairman; and there will be three other members—Sir John Ure Primrose, a former Lord Provost of Perth, Sir Percy Wyn-Harris, formerly Governor of the Gambia, and Mr. E. T. Williams, Warden of Rhodes House, Oxford. I am sure that I voice the opinion of all your Lordships in expressing our gratitude to them for having been ready to undertake this important inquiry at such short notice. I do not doubt that, with such eminent men of such wide experience, we shall get to the heart of things: and it is for that reason, my Lords, that I have not thought it appropriate to go into any detail on the White Paper, or to answer in detail the doubts that have been expressed or charges that have been made by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore.

The Commission will be concerned only with the recent disturbances in Nyasaland and the events leading up to them. There remains the issue of the future of the Federation and the 1960 constitutional talks. Regarding this, Her Majesty's Government are in touch with the Federation Government and the other territorial Governments concerned, and are considering the best way of preparing for the 1960 review of the Federal constitution. When Her Majesty's Government are in a position to put forward proposals, they will do so— and they fully understand that Parliament would wish to be associated in an appropriate way with any machinery that might be set up.

My Lords, we are all in this together, and together we must, and we will, find the right answer.

3.55 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, I should like to ask a question about what is obviously the official Government statement which was made at the end of the noble Earl's speech, with regard to these terms of reference: To inquire into the recent disturbances in Nyasaland and the events leading up to them, and to report thereon. That seems a little limited; but, in view of the composition, are the Commission to be entirely judicial? Are they to inquire only into disturbances in Nyasaland? If that is so, we can understand the terms of reference, but the noble Earl said just now that they were to go into the heart of things. I should like some guidance at this stage of the debate as to what exactly is to be covered by the terms of reference, and to have much later on from the noble Earl a little more explanation of the end of the statement.

THE EARL OF HOME

Not now? You would like us to deal with that later on?

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

I should like the terms of reference to be made known before my noble friends speak.

THE EARL OF HOME

I am sorry; I misunderstood. Perhaps I might read out the terms of reference for the Commission of Inquiry. The Commission will be concerned—and these are the terms of reference—with the disturbances in Nyasaland and the events leading up to them, and will report thereon.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

But a number of charges of foul behaviour and proposed assassinations have been laid and published in the White Paper, and we all expected the noble Earl to come back and tell us whether he had examined those charges or done anything to verify them. That is the difficulty: he has said not one single word about them.

THE EARL OF HOME

What the noble Viscount asked for, and what his Party asked for, was a Parliamentary Commission to examine the situation. What we have done is to appoint a judicial Inquiry composed of independent persons. They are the people, I should have thought, to look into the charges. If my noble friend had expressed an opinion on the charges, he would have been accused by the noble Viscount of taking sides.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

These charges have been laid and printed, and the names of men have been mentioned. The noble Earl has been there; he has been on the spot; he has seen the Governor; and he has had an opportunity of seeing the detained people, and we want to know what he thinks about the charges, whether they are true or whether they are false.

3.58 p.m.

LORD REA

My Lords, are these not points which will come before the Commission of Inquiry?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

LORD REA

After that slight digression, may I be permitted to follow the noble Earl, Lord Perth? First of all, I should like to welcome him back to this House after his slightly hesitant departure from these shores, though not due to his own fault, and slightly hesitant arrival—also, I gather, by no means his responsibility.

My Lords, it is about seven years, I believe—it was in July, 1952—since this House had its first big debate on this matter. The two chief speeches then were made by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury; both of whom, if I may say so, I seem to recall, set a very high tone of restraint and reasonableness on a very touchy and difficult problem. There were particularly difficult and explosive possibilities in this matter then, as there are now, but I trust that during those years we have learned to see the whole matter in a little more proportion, and that some of us who were perhaps considered extreme, either on the right or on the left, have come to a more middle line of view.

I feel that, when this matter was discussed in the earlier stages, there was a little too much intolerance, and that those who were suspected of being more than normally pro-African were sometimes automatically expected to be anti white: the sort of person who says that this country is always wrong, and that the foreigner is always right. Nothing is further from the truth; but that is sometimes said. Similarly, those who are interested in prison welfare are sometimes accused, quite wrongly, of looking after the welfare of the accused but of forgetting all about the victim. Those are far-fetched and puerile arguments, which I hope no longer exist. There is also a feeling, on the other side, that most white people in Africa are overbearing, irresponsible, and take advantage where they should not do so. I do not think that either of those arguments bas the least force nowadays; and I hope that this debate will be conducted on the same high level as that on which the last debate finished.

We must, of course, take the long view of things that happen rather suddenly; and it is difficult, at such very short notice, to review them, and to take up the points made in the speech by the noble Earl. I am in a particular difficulty because until a short time ago I thought that I should be speaking before him, and I had prepared a series of questions, which I am now unable to put because the noble Earl has more or less given me the answers. At least let us keep the debate off Party lines, and let us look at it from the long view and not from the short. It is because we did not have a long enough view on the last occasion we discussed the matter that this tragic position has come about. In those days, there was the rather curious situation that noble Lords on these Benches and on the Labour Benches took what might be termed a conservative view. They begged the Government of the day not to hurry too far too fast in this matter of federation, when the two countries of Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia were really not ready for it, did not want it and had expressed their unwillingness. Many arguments were put forward on both sides, and, if I may, I would touch on one in a humorous, though not in a critical, way. I remember one noble Lord indicating that he represented the underprivileged people of Nyasaland because he was an absentee landlord in Northern Rhodesia.

I am not going to keep your Lordships now, because there is a long list of speakers, but I should like to make one or two points thatI had noted to ask the noble Earl, Lord Perth, if he had not anticipated some of them. First of all, with regard to the Governor's dispatch, which is an appendix to the White Paper, noble Lords on this side of the House are not fully convinced by its tone. It is a good report, and I am sure a sincere report; it gives a very clear view of one side, but it seems to us not to give both sides of the picture. Therefore, we want to have the other side more closely investigated. We know, of course, the extreme difficulties in this matter, particularly in the matter of security, and I think we all appreciate the great difficulty the Governor had in making a report on matters of this nature, in skating round security problems. We have the greatest sympathy with him in that. At the same time, think we should point out that we do not like a mystery created by security problems which are deliberately put up, and we do not like to have the issue befogged by points which may not really exist.

I am sorry that the noble Earl did not touch at all upon the question of detention without charge and without trial, but perhaps the noble Earl who leads the House will touch on that matter when he comes to wind up. I think that all noble Lords are most anxious to know how it came about that these people could be detained without proper charges being made and can now be released without any charges being withdrawn, because they were not made, and with no explanation of why they were put under detention.

THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, this is not Nyasaland—the noble Lord is talking about Southern Rhodesia?

LORD REA

Yes, I am talking about Southern Rhodesia.

THE EARL OF HOME

My Lords, that is not a matter I can answer at the moment.

LORD REA

My Lords, I think that we all welcome the appointment of the Commission of Inquiry which has been announced from the Government Front Bench. We had felt that it was not suitable that the Commission should be purely a Parliamentary one. We should have welcomed a mixed Commission. But the eminent names which the noble Earl has given us will give great satisfaction, and I am sure that the work the Commission do, so long as it is undertaken very quickly, will be excellent.

I hope that special investigation will be made of the authenticity of the plots which are referred to in the Governor's report: how widespread they were, how co-ordinated they were, whether there really was one centre of organisation dealing with this sort of thing, and whether Dr. Banda was actually in charge. I do not know anything about Dr. Banda, but I heard on what I consider reasonable grounds that when he was in this country he was regarded as a high Tory and that his politics were definitely of the Right. It seems rather extraordinary that he should have switched over, unless his disappointments in this country were such that he changed his allegiance. He also should be brought under investigation, and those who have been detained in Southern Rhodesia. The investigation should not be confined merely to matters in Nyasaland itself.

I am not going to detain your Lordships further. I would tell the Minister and the noble Earl the Leader of the House that, in spite of our criticisms, they have our sincere good wishes for a happy solution of this tragic situation, which some of us think could have been avoided; but, since recrimination does us no good, we hope for better things to come.

4.5 p.m.

LORD SILKIN

My Lords, like the two previous speakers, I welcome back the noble Earl, Lord Perth, who went to Africa on a mission on which we had particularly urged him; and we are grateful to him for the full report with which he has returned. In the course of my remarks I shall deal with various things that he said, but I should like to begin by referring to the alleged lack of interest which the people of Nyasaland feel exists in this country. The noble Earl made the remark. which is quoted in The Times, that he thought that his visit would have dispelled that feeling. I certainly agree that it must have played some part. but I doubt whether a three-to-four day visit to Nyasaland would really dispel the feeling that they are somewhat isolated and that we are not taking the fullest interest in them. Perhaps. if they read the OFFICIAL REPORT in Nyasaland, they may feel encouraged at the end of the day by the fact that there are twenty-five speakers to-day and that we have an unusually full House to discuss their affairs.

One of the things that has come out is the White Paper, which gives the grounds on which a state of emergency was declared by the Governor. We had that last night and most of us have read it with care. Although I have some reservations, I accept the fact that the Governor acted with sincerity, and that on such facts as he had available to him he was right to declare a state of emergency. He carries a great responsibility, and whether, in the result, those facts are justified or not, I think that a responsible Governor was bound to take note of them and, as a precautionary measure, declare a state of emergency. Therefore, no criticism arises against the Governor for the action that he took. I understand that he was in touch with the Secretary of State here, and that his decision was supported by the Secretary of State. I make no complaint about that. Nevertheless, I am bound to say that I think that the White Paper does not really make out a powerful case.

I have a number of apprehensions about it, but I do not want to go through the White Paper in any detail. I imagine that the Commission who has been appointed will have as their responsibility the investigation of all the allegations that have been made, and that it will be for them to say to what extent there was, in fact, a plot, and for them to answer the questions which the noble Lord, Lord Rea, so properly put.

I have, however, gained a general impression about this White Paper. Most of the incidents that are referred to are incidents where there was unlawful assembly. That can mean a lot or a little. It can mean a few people getting together in the market place and talking things over—as is the case in one of these instances—orit can mean an official public meeting at which large numbers of people attend. I canot help feeling that rather heavy weather has been made of these unlawful assemblies; that large numbers of people have been arrested through attending these meetings, and that a good deal of the trouble has arisen because those attending have been resentful of the fact that their friends were arrested merely for having attended.

That is the feeling I have, and this question of unlawful assembly constitutes a large part of the justification for the incidents which have caused the Governor to declare a state of emergency.

I cannot help thinking that the authorities have been somewhat heavy-handed over this business; and I certainly cannot accept the fact that the persons throwing stones, or even trying to rescue their comrades, should have been arrested, as if they justly deserved it, and killed for their pains. If anything of that sort happened here the whole country would be up in arms and resentful against the action of authority in dealing with events of that kind. We ought to take the same line in this case: that there can be no justification for the shooting and killing of fifty people following these unlawful assemblies.

The whole of this story does not hang together. Up to the stage when there was the declaration of emergency, and Banda was arrested, there was no real violence. The whole plan depended on the rejection of the constitutional demands made by Congress, and no rejection had so far taken place. If the plan was being carried into effect, the time for these murders had not yet arisen. Dr. Banda, as my noble friend Lord Ogmore said, was not even present at the meeting at which the plot was supposed to have been made. He has never been guilty of incitement to violence; and, so far as I know, no statement of his has been put forward in justification. Furthermore, if the key to the putting into operation of Plan "R" was to be the arrest of Banda, why was it necessary to arrest him at all? By not arresting Banda the Government had it in their power to postpone indefinitely the events which were going to follow his arrest. However, as I say, I hope all these things will be investigated fully as the result of setting up the Commission.

While my noble friends and I would have preferred the setting up of a Parliamentary Commission, because we think it would have created greater confidence among the people of Nyasaland, we nevertheless welcome this Commission. I want to say at once, as is, I think, fairly obvious, that we all have complete confidence in Mr. Justice Devlin, whom many of us know, and we are quite satisfied that we shall get from him an objective Report. Frankly, I do not know the other members of the Commission, but I have every reason to belileve that they will he equally objective. I accept the fact that the Government have gone out of their way to try to find people who will give an objective Report. Therefore, I am satisfied that if there is to be a Commission of this kind the Government have undoubtedly chosen a body which will command general support.

THE EARL OF HOME

I think that perhaps I misled the noble Lord. It is not technically a judicial Commission, but it is a Commission of independent persons with a judge as its head.

LORD SILKEN

That puts a rather different light on the situation, because a judicial Commission—and no doubt the noble Earl will correct me if I am wrong—

THE EARL OF SWINTON

A judicial inquiry.

LORD SILKIN

I had in mind that this was to be the sort of body which could compel the attendance of witnesses and where witnesses would give their evidence on oath; where they would get complete immunity in respect of the evidence they gave, arid could be represented by counsel, if they so desired; and the whole atmosphere would be one of judicial inquiry. If that is not to be the case, then I am bound to say that I should like to give further thought to the desirability of a Commission of this kind.

I should be grateful if I could be informed in what form and in what way this inquiry will be conducted. Will they have power to compel the attendance of witnesses? If not, how is it expected to get at the truth of the matter? It may well be that the people who are alleged to have given the information to the Governor upon which he acted are people who were actually present on the occasion of the meeting out of which the plot arose. If they were, and they took a solemn oath that they would not disclose anything, they might be in serious difficulty if they came out into the open and gave evidence voluntarily. It would be a different matter if they had been compelled to give evidence. I should be grateful if we could have some further elucidation of this point, because this rather changes the flattering tone of what I have been saying into a somewhat critical one.

I want to ask the noble Earl who is to reply why, instead of imprisoning Dr. Banda, it was not thought desirable to make a charge against him. If in fact he has been guilty of conspiracy to murder, and if those who have been associated with him have been similarly guilty of conspiracy—and that is what the allegation amounts to—would it not be more satisfactory to put them on trial; to formulate charges against them and give them the opportunity of vindicating themselves? As it is, I always have the fear in regard to these inquiries, and especially the type of inquiry now contemplated, that it will be for these people to prove their innocence rather than for the authorities to prove their guilt. As my noble friend Lord Ogmore said, it is much more difficult, if not impossible, to prove a negative than to have to defend, as is the normal thing, a definite and clear charge made. So I hope that it may be possible for the noble Earl to satisfy us on the point of this inquiry, or, alternatively, that it may be possible for him to reconsider the form of the inquiry if it is not in a form which we on this side of the House regard as desirable. We are all prepared to forgo our view that this should be a Parliamentary inquiry, but we certainly feel that the alternative should be a judicial Inquiry.

The Commission are to consider the events leading up to the disorders. I do not know whether the noble Earl can elucidate exactly what that means. As my noble Leader indicated, we have some doubts whether that goes far enough. For instance, will the Commission feel able to inquire as to the causes of the disasters? Events leading up to them may be interpreted as meaning just events preceding them but not necessarily the causes of the disorder. We feel that it is most important and relevant to the whole thing that we should get a clear investigation into the facts as to the disorders and the causes of them.

In the course of his remarks the noble Earl gave us some of the causes, and I think the main one was fear. Incidentally, I suppose that fear is, at bottom, the main cause of every disorder. It is the cause of the cold war that exists, and it is the cause of most of the disturbances that exist in the world. But the question is: how far is their fear justified? The noble Earl tried to convince us, and, of course, the people of Nyasaland, that these fears were without justification. But are they? If one has to go by statements that are made by prominent people—for instance, Sir Roy Welensky and the noble Viscount, Lord Malvern (I have given him notice that I was going to refer to him in my remarks)—one cannot help coming to the conclusion that there is a good deal of justification for the fears which they feel at the present time.

I have a host of quotations from speeches made by Sir Roy Welensky, but I will quote only two; I think they will give an adequate idea to the House as to his outlook on federation and what the people of Nyasaland have to fear. Before I quote, I should like to emphasise the fact that the people of Nyasaland are a Protectorate and are relying on protection by this country. What they fear is that this protection may disappear and that they may be placed under other control, particularly under the control of the Federation. It is in the light of that that I wish to quote two statements that have been made by Sir Roy Welensky. The first is a quotation from the Johannesburg Star of August 14, 1957, when he said: The pledge that independence should not be granted before the majority of the inhabitants wanted it "— that is, independence as regards the Federation— did not mean that the natives had a right to veto anything which would be in the best interests of the Federation. Who decides what are in the best interests of the Federation?—Sir Roy Welensky. If it is not to be the natives themselves, who have a preponderance in the Territory, who does decide what is in the best interests of the Federation? Surely they are entitled to understand by that that when Sir Roy Welensky decides that it is in the best interests of Federation then he will demand independence.

The other quotation I wish to make is from the Financial Times of April 18, 1957: I have not been demanding independence for the Federation forthwith. By this I do not want you to assume that we are not determined to claim independent status within the Commonwealth. We are. But I believe the time to settle this is in 1960. We are now getting towards 1960. There again, I am not arguing that the people of Nyasaland are completely justified in their fears. But I do submit that they have very good ground for their fears, and that unless they have far more reassurance than we have been able to give therm—

EARL WINTERTON

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a question? I am obliged to him for giving way. Does he regard it as wrong that a large European community overseas should organise independence at some future time?

LORD SILKIN

I am not suggesting whether it is right or wrong. All I am trying to prove at this moment is that the fears of the people of Nyasaland have some ground—that is all—andthat the fears are imminent, because the demand for independence is going to be made before 1960. If the noble Earl would like a discussion on whether it is right or wrong that people should demand independence, I am perfectly prepared to discuss it. But that is not the issue at this moment, and I hope he will accept that as a fair reply.

The noble Earl, Lord Perth, said—and I think he said it very fairly—that, as a result of his inquiries, he thought the people of Nyasaland were not in favour of federation; in fact, the majority of them were against it. He pointed to the great economic advantages of federation, and nobody would dispute it. I have no doubt at all that Nyasaland would find herself in great economic difficulties if federation ceased to exist. On the other hand, the noble Earl said, and said quite clearly, that the economic considerations were not the only ones: that there were moral considerations also. One consideration is this. Just as the people of Southern Rhodesia are entitled (if the noble Earl likes) to press for independence, so those in Nyasaland are entitled to say that they object to federation. They may be wrong-headed, and they may be working against their own interests; but they are entitled to take that view if that is what they feel. I am not at this moment suggesting whether they are right or wrong in that view, but if that is their view it is a view which must be taken into consideration and cannot be brushed aside.

Without wishing to gloat or in any way express a feeling of "we told you so", the fact is that we did warn the Government in 1953—and my noble friend quoted from what he said—that this is the kind of thing which was likely to happen: that however desirable federation was, it was not a thing one could force. I think the noble Earl recognises that, because he said that the people of Nyasaland were inadequately prepared; they were not sufficiently educated up to the blessings of federation. I hope it may be possible that that can be done in the course of the next few months, but I am bound to say that I do not think the events of the last few weeks are the best form of education. We shall have to take a very different line.

I said that they have grounds for their fears, and I quoted a statement of Sir Roy Welensky. I now want to come to the noble Viscount, Lord Malvern. After all, he is a very important person in the history of Rhodesia and has rendered great service to that country, and we are very glad to have him in this House. But he has made statements which hardly tend to reassure the people of Nyasaland. I want to make one quotation of what he said. He said: You cannot make people do things unless they wish to "—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

LORD SILKIN

— except by force. One of the curious things about our Constitution is that we have complete control of our defence forces. I can only hope we shall not have to use them as the North American colonies had to use theirs. Because we are dealing with a stupid Government in the United Kingdom. Would noble Lords like to cheer that? That speech was reported in East Africa and Rhodesia on August 30, 1956, soon after the last election. He means that "Our job is to consolidate our position economically, to advance our people as we do so, and when we are strong enough we do not care, because nobody can stop us doing what we like". I have no quarrel with that as such. The noble Viscount is entitled to have these views, but I am bound to say they are not very reassuring to the people of Nyasaland.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

LORD SILKIN

That is the point I am trying to make. There is another statement the noble Viscount made more recently, as the House will know, and there is no reason why he should feel in any way ashamed of it. The noble Viscount is a director of the British South Africa Company and on March 19 last he was re-elected as a director of that company. No doubt in the exuberance of that achievement he made certain statements. I should like to tell the House what some of those statements were. First of all, he referred to certain upheavals that had taken place in Nyasaland—he had only recently comeback—and prophesied that they would all be over in about a fortnight. He had to explain why his prognostications had been wrong. Well, we all make prophecies, and I do not grumble that he was over-optimistic. But he went on to say: One of the outstanding impressions I must say I have derived from certain groups in this country"— Great Britain— is that they are very disappointed there are no European casualties yet. I think that that is a shocking thing to say.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

LORD SILKIN

I make no apology for using strong language about it. There is nobody in this country who is disappointed because there have been no European casualties.

A NOBLE LORD

Your Party.

LORD SILKIN

That is an utterly improper thing to say. I hope that when the noble Viscount comes to speak he will be able to tell us that these remarks do not really represent his views but were put forward in the excitement of his reelection as a director of the British South Africa Company.

LORD GRENFELL

My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord does not want to be unfair, but earlier on he said, I think, that it is all wrong that natives should be killed for throwing stones. Those of us who have in years past served in the civil power in India and many other places know what a lonely moment it is when you are facing an angry mob.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

LORD GRENFELL

And it is one of the biggest decisions of your life that you have to make when you consider that in the rights of the case you should order your men to open fire. I am sure the noble Lord does not mean to be unfair. But I thought, as he is stating a case, that I should be allowed to make that comment.

LORD SILKIN

I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that interjection. I do not mean to be unfair, and there might well be extenuating circumstances when troops open fire on a mob. Nevertheless, the remark I made is perfectly true; fifty lives have been lost among people whose main crime was throwing stones. You may make light of that, but I think it is a serious matter.

But I come back to the noble Viscount. I can understand that a person may make a statement like that on the spur of the moment, without preparation, but the noble Viscount was so pleased with the remark that he repeated it. He said later on: They would be happier if the policy of partnership had been implemented more by a few European deaths. I am sure that the noble Viscount is much too goodhearted a man to mean that really, and much too generous a man to say that about his opponents. We may disagree, but none of us—I need hardly say this—would wish to have European deaths merely to further his advocacy of a particular cause. That is what the noble Viscount was saying. That sort of statement would not commend itself to the people in Africa. But I want to make one further quotation. He says it is a pity that these outbreaks took place at the present time. If they had taken place in the winter the law-breakers would have been under cover of something like, he says, six or seven to eight feet of grass, and he says, Of course, had it happened in the middle of the winter, a few matches used with a favourable wind, and all that cover would have disappeared in two or three days.'

A NOBLE LORD

In other words, burn them out.

LORD SILKIN

That is of statement to commend people of Nyasaland.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear!

LORD SILKIN

When we talk of fear, I want to emphasise that there is some justification for fear, and we have a great deal to do to remove that fear—a great deal. What does it all amount to? As my noble friend Lord Ogmore said, there are 7,000 white people and over 2½ million Africans. Is it unreasonable that the Africans do not wish to be dominated by their own white people, still less by the white people of Southern Rhodesia, and that they fear it? Does one need to look further than this fear—and, as I hope I have established, this reasonable fear—to understand the root cause of the trouble?

And so I hope that the Commission will be able to examine this matter in the widest possible way. I do not know whether it is necessary that the terms of reference should be widened. Perhaps it is a question of how these terms of reference should be interpreted. Perhaps the noble Earl, when he replies, will give us his view as to the proper interpretation of those terms of reference. I am very glad indeed that there is to be in addition a political inquiry, which I imagine will be greatly helped by the findings of this Commission. I am not suggesting that the Commission should in any way make any recommendations; I do not think they should. I think the Commission we are talking about should merely find facts.

THE EARL OF HOME

May I interrupt the noble Lord? I could not understand him when he said that in addition there would be a political inquiry.

LORD SILKIN

I understood that the noble Earl, Lord Perth, had said that in his statement—I do not mean immediately, but at some time before 1960.

THE EARL OF HOME

Perhaps I may read it again. It is very important, when we are dealing with other Governments and peoples, that there should be no misunderstanding. What my noble friend said was: Her Majesty's Government are in touch with the Federal Government and with the Territorial Governments concerned, and are considering the best way of preparing for the 1960 review of the federal Constitution. When Her Majesty's Government are in a position to put forward proposals on this they will do so, and they fully understand that Parliament would wish to be associated in an appropriate way with any machinery that might be set up". It is a little dangerous to use words like "a Parliamentary Commission."

LORD SILKIN

I hope the noble Earl will acquit me of desiring to misinterpret what he said. He has left the matter deliberately vague and open. I gather that there may be some sort of political examination into the matter before the time comes to make the decision.

I want to say a word in conclusion about the attitude of the Opposition. I am very glad that the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, is here, because he generally accuses us, the moment we happen to disagree with the Government, of being unpatriotic and trying to make Party political capital. I want to assure him and the House that that is not true. We regard this as much too serious a matter to make Party political capital out of. If the Government want a bipartisan approach to this matter they must carry out all the implications of a bipartisan approach. That implies that the Opposition should be fully informed before events happen, and taken into consultation and their approval obtained. But no Opposition—even if noble Lords opposite were in opposition —could agree to accept whatever the Government do under pain of being called unpatriotic, and we should 'be seriously abrogating our functions as the Opposition if we just swallowed whatever the Government said in order to avoid being accused of being unpatriotic and using events in order to further our politics.

The problem of Nyasaland is, I am afraid, an aspect of a world problem. It is the problem of the second half of the twentieth century. It is how peoples of different colours and races and traditions can live together in harmony and friendship. It confronts us in every continent and in almost every country. It confronts us even in London and in Nottingham. For years white nations have dominated by reason of their superior education and power. But there is evidence everywhere that the other peoples are growing up. They are no longer prepared to accept domination or an inferior status, either politically or socially—and I want to emphasise "socially". It is not sufficient to give people the vote. They want the right to belong to clubs and to be treated on equal terms with other people, 'whatever colour they are.

We must learn to accept this dramatic change—and it is a dramatic change—just as we have one day to accept the fact that our children have grown up and can no longer be treated as children.

If we accept this graciously and willingly, and not grudgingly and reluctantly, there is hope for the future. We are greatly outnumbered in most of these territories and we cannot hope to dominate indefinitely. On the other band, white people who have long settled in these territories, for generations perhaps, and who have a considerable stake in the country, have their rights, and they should not be overridden. We must, therefore, be prepared for a genuine partnership and offer it immediately, in name and in fact. We have surely learned from our experience that delay only aggravates the position; it never gets better; it always gets 'worse. In the end if we do not accept and grant partnership the alternative will be domination by the black people, certainly not domination of 'black by white.

I am glad that the Government intend in due course to have further inquiry well before the Constitution is due for revision, and I welcome that all aspects of it will be examined. I promise that so far as my friends are concerned the Government will have complete co-operation. This is a human problem and we have no desire to make a Party issue out of it. Our one hope is that we may arrive at a wise solution in accordance with the best interests of all parties and in accordance with their wishes, and so enable this lovely country —and it is a lovely country—which, given peace, could well become a world-famed international resort, to live in prosperity and in happiness.

4.47 p.m.

LORD ROBINS

My Lords, I must seek the indulgence of your Lordships in addressing you for the first time, saying immediately that I welcome the opportunity of speaking on a Motion relating to a country and a people among whom I have spent the last thirty-one years of my life. No one who has had that close association and who has, in a sense, grown up with these people can fail to have sympathy for the aspirations of the African people to progress economically, socially, educationally and politically. I put the importance of their progress in the order I have stated, because without economic advancement and the benefits of education it is quite impossible to give the vote to an African or, indeed, to anybody in these territories. I hope I may be forgiven for giving some emphasis to this point, because in the utterances of Dr. Hastings Banda and his staff of agitators we invariably find put in the forefront pressure for freedom: they ignore the fact that this can come only in the train of economic and educational progress.

The Motion with which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has initiated this debate begins by drawing attention to the unrest in Nyasaland and goes on to voice the urgent need for the appointment of a Parliamentary Commission. That unrest exists is, of course, quite obvious, and that it has been accompanied by violence is equally obvious. That violence is regretted by no one more than myself. The progress of events which has followed on that unrest has been reported fully in the public Press; it has been reported in this House and in another place, and the White Paper we are discussing to-day has given a factual statement bringing the situation up to date. Force and violence have resulted from the necessity to put down violence, and, as I have said, no one regrets this more than I do, as, knowing the good-natured, good-mannered and naturally peaceable Nyasalander pretty well, I am convinced that this unrest is confined to a handful out of the 2½ million inhabitants of that country, and that violence has been resorted to by only a hard core of agitators and self-appointed leaders, whose aims no one can describe as disinterested.

We have been told several times, and again to-day, that this unrest was initially a revolt against the inclusion of Nyasaland in the Federation with the Rhodesias and that Nyasaland wished to remain under the direct control of the Colonial Office. I emphasise this, in particular, to one certain group of our fellow-countrymen in the United Kingdom, who seem only too happy to belittle and destroy everything that those of us who are working in Central Africa for the advancement of its inhabitants, black and white, have been endeavouring to achieve over the last seventy-five years. When it had been shown, over and over again, that in all matters affecting the internal affairs of the people of Nyasaland, they were, and still are to-day, a territorial entity under the direction of Her Majesty's Government inthe United Kingdom; and, further, that when the constitutional changes now under consideration come into force they will increase the influence of its African population in those affairs, then things would seem to be fairly clear. Once the true nature of the agitation became apparent, Dr. Banda and his lieutenants came out into the open and declared that their objective was to throw off British control and set up an independent African State, on the lines of the West African model. So, my Lords, we need now be under no illusions as to the aims of these self-appointed leaders.

May I refer to a book published recently under the title, His Own Oppressor? The author is one B. G. Paver, a gifted writer and editor in Central Africa, and a trusted friend of the African people. One chapter in the book deals specifically with this unrest in Nyasaland. I will quote two or three sentences from it: One of the most tragic factors of the situation is the emergence of black politicians prone to a Bhudda-like contemplation of their navels. What they sec is a black skin; no more and no less. So the surge of advancement becomes political and ignores the fundamental sociological and economic factors of the black man's future. There is no doubt that this hard core of politicians has played upon the ignorance, superstition and fears of the people of Nyasalandto such an extent that unrest and violence have been the result.

I think that it is often necessary to remind people in this country that it is only seventy years ago that slavery and the slave trade were rife in Nyasaland, and that disease, starvation and intertribal strife kept the people of that Territory in a miserable and unhappy state. It was the followers of Livingstone, missionaries, traders, and, subsequently, representatives of the "Great White Queen," like Sir Harry Johnston, who brought to Nyasaland the benefits of British example and of its administration.

May I refer again to what we have been repeatedly told: that the people of Nyasaland were opposed to federation from the start and were forced into it, and that that is one of the causes of this unrest. There is, unfortunately, some foundation for that statement; but though I am most anxious in my maiden speech not to tread on controversial ground. there are some facts of which it is only fair to remind the House. They have already been referred to in part by my noble friend Lord Perth.

It is a fact, which I have never seen denied, that in the period preceding 1953, under the Government then in power, the negotiations for federation were proceeding, and it was made clear by that Government that Nyasaland must be included in the scheme. There then emerged a small band of Nyasas who declared their objection to it. The situation was greatly worsened by the instruction given by the then Secretary of State for the Colonies, that Colonial civil servants were not to offer any advice to the Chiefs, to African Native Authorities or to individuals as to whether federation was a good thing or the reverse. They were told to say that the African must make up his own mind. Could any instruction have been more calculated to cause doubt in the mind of ignorant, though well-intentioned people, as to whether they could gain or lose by a change of this sort? The African in Nyasaland has always regarded the district officer as his mother and father. He goes to him for advice on every subject—domestic, public and economic. To be told that he must make up his own mind on an important question of this sort only created a doubt which made him think that this must be a bad thing for him. That this course of action did have the effect I have indicated, I have ample evidence from my own experience.

Unrest in Nyasaland will not subside, nor will these doubts be removed, until we are able to convince the people of that country of the sincerity of the planners of the Federation and to gain their co-operation in that partnership which is one of its cardinal aims. Partnership has had many definitions, but when it conies down to bedrock it embodies the principle enunciated by Cecil Rhodes many years ago, of "equal rights for all civilised men". We must never lose sight of the fact that it is civilisation and not colour that will decide the contribution that each partner will be able to make to it.

My Lords, I wonder whether it will be thought out of place if, as a citizen of the Federation, as well as a Member of y our Lordships' House, I say one word of appeal for the support by people in the United Kingdom, and particularly by Members of the Mother of Parliaments, to whom Africans in all parts look for guidance and advice, for the British administrations in those countries who are endeavouring to restore order and to make of the Federation the successful entity which it is designed to be. I mean, in particular, the Governors of the two Rhodesias and Nyasaland, the Prime Ministers of the countries in the Federation of Southern Rhodesia, and the troops and police whose duties have been particularly trying; also the civil servants and the citizens of these territories. Their task and responsibilities have been extremely heavy, and I trust that your Lordships will agree with me that they are entitled to the support of all their fellow subjects in the United Kingdom.

My Lords, I had intended to finish my remarks by referring to that portion of the noble Lord's Motion which calls for the setting up of a Parliamentary Commission, but from what we have heard from the noble Earl. Lord Perth, I feel that there is nothing for me to say except that I am very happy that the nature of that Commission of Inquiry is such that it will be free from any tinge of Party politics, and that the members of that Commission will not be called upon to take part in any legislation which may be required to give effect to their recommendations. I feel that the Commission which has been suggested will go far to restore the confidence of Nyasaland in the United Kingdom and to help the progress of the African people there and I, for one, welcome it very warmly.

5.0 p.m.

THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, it is very agreeable to me, as an old friend of Lord Robins, to he the first to congratulate him on a model maiden speech. He has had a very long experience of Rhodesia and Nyasaland—the whole of the Federation—and its people. He has always shown himself a man of wise and unprejudiced judgment, and that is just the kind of man we need, both in this House and out there. I believe that this is a very timely debate. I am quite sure that Her Majesty's Government are just as anxious as any of their critics to ascertain and appraise the true facts, and just as anxious as any of their critics to do what is right and wise. Her Majesty's Government, of course, have a special responsibility, but as the noble Lord, Lord Robins, has said, that is a responsibility which we all share because, by word or action, we, certainly in both Houses of Parliament, can all help or prejudice both the present and the future.

It is a great advantage to have had my noble friend Lord Perth back for this debate. If I may say so without impertinence, he seems to me to have got an extraordinary amount into a few days, as a man seeing things for himself. Obviously he has behaved out there without any prejudice, with complete objectivity, and I feel that the account he has given to the House to-day could not have been more fair, more objective or more understanding. It is also a great advantage to have the White Paper. I am not going to say anything about the details of that White Paper except to make a point on which we can all agree, even before the inquiry starts—and it is rather an important point: that all the action which was taken by the Governor of Nyasaland was action taken entirely on his own initiative and responsibility, no doubt subject to the approval of the Secretary of State for the Colonies; but what is abundantly clear is that it was in no sense action pressed upon him from outside, from Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia or anywhere else, and that his demand for such troops and police as were required to support the civil power was made as a personal request. After all that has been said, I believe it is a good thing that that should be cleared up.

I must admit that I have a strong inclination to trust Her Majesty's Government, not merely because I am a supporter of them but because the Government—and not only this Government but any Government that is in office —have means which none of us can have to the same extent to get full and accurate information; and also because the Government are and must be the best judge of timing—and in this matter timing is very important.

This debate has ranged pretty widely, and no doubt will range wider, but I believe it should be recognised that there are here two quite separate and distinct issues, and they are issues which it is important to keep distinct. First, there is the subject matter of the White Paper— this plot for subversion, violence, sabotage and, as it is said, of murder, no less, and the action which was taken by the Governor to suppress that plot. On that I am going to express no opinion, but I want to say to the House that that is a separate issue from the future Constitution in the Federation. Those are matters of fact, and I am glad that Her Majesty's Government have taken exactly the same view. It is a view which I believe we all share that those are matters which are very suitable for a judicial inquiry.

I am not going to ask Her Majesty's Government to lay down almost a "book of rules" on how this Commission are to proceed, and I believe that on consideration the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will feel that it is probably not wise to try to persuade Her Majesty's Government to do so. The Commission seems to me to be a good body, and, what is very important, it is headed by an extremely able Judge. I am sure that it is the desire of Her Majesty's Government and will be the purpose of the Commission to make the most thorough investigation that they can; and that Her Majesty's Government will put all possible information at their disposal. I may add that I have no doubt that the Government will be able to put at the disposal of the Commission evidence which they could not possibly disclose to Parliament or to anybody else. I say that with a full sense of responsibility, and I am quite sure that that view will be endorsed by anybody who has ever held responsible office. When in government one always has at one's disposal information which one is bound to assess and then to act upon, but if one were to disclose the sources of such information one would be completely hamstrung for the future. It is all right to make a claptrap about it outside, but among responsible people there cannot be any doubt about that.

At the same time, where we have a Judge of the High Court, with responsible men sitting with him, it is quite possible to disclose to those people and to put at their disposal evidence which has been before the Governor, and no doubt the Secretary of State. so that they may evaluate that evidence for themselves. I have no doubt that that will be done. Further, I would not try to lay down just how the Commission are to conduct their business, for it seems to me much better to let Mr. Justice Devlin and his colleagues be masters of their own procedure, with the broad direction, "You shall ha