HL Deb 22 January 1958 vol 207 cc71-169

2.36 p.m.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH rose to call attention to questions of defence, with special reference to the situation arising from the N.A.T.O. Conference; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am sure it is in the minds of all your Lordships that in the past few weeks there has been growing anxiety in the public mind about our position as a nation in relation to defence and security in all the modern circumstances which have arisen; and that that anxiety has included, certainly among large sections of the population, what is likely to be the policy arising out of the Conference of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in Paris last December, the White Paper in respect of which was laid before Christmas. One thing that is always essential in these matters of defence and security is that we ought to try on all occasions to abstain, so far as we can, from utterances which may give rise to unnecessary fears in the minds of the population. Anybody who has been associated with the organisation of national defence knows how strongly this aim has to be promoted in the course of that organisation. The situation is such, however, that I think the more frank the Government are with the population the less likelihood there will be of misunderstanding and of unnecessary fears arising, although far be it from me to say that at the present time there are not sufficient circumstances operating as would be likely to give rise to fairly widespread fears.

This Conference of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation took place in Paris, and if we are to have a number of references to it in the course of our debate to-day, as no doubt we are, it might be as well for me to say a few words at the outset about my own Party's attitude to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. There seems to be a tendency in some quarters to be surprised at the fact that a member of my Party should have reiterated in the other place during the debate on December 20 our general support of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. But the people who take that line must surely have forgotten that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation was not initiated in the United States of America. It was initiated largely as a result of the failure to come to anything like a reasonable basis of agreement with Russia and the satellite States at the Paris Conference of 1946, and subsequent near events after that date, which led to my noble friend who will be replying to the debate to-day for our side, Lord Attlee, the late Mr. Ernest Bevin, and at later stages, myself, being responsible for the ab initio steps which led to the formation of what ultimately resulted in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. There is no need for anybody to question the general support of the Labour Party; and no Party has less reason to be ashamed of its contribution in the defence elements of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation than the Party which I have the honour to represent. I say that at the outset only because I want us to have in mind in what we say, so far as we can, the general anxiety for a desire to contribute to the security and safety of our nation and the Commonwealth.

The situation arising out of the 1946 Conference and leading to the initial steps which were first brought near to fruition was the signing of the Treaty of Dunkirk, in March, 1947; and I am proud to be the only living British representative who signed that Treaty. It had very important and wide developments. We could not have got the Treaty at Dunkirk (let me say this factually) if we had not already published the decision, later to be implemented in May, 1947, to introduce National Service. We should not have got the Treaty at Dunkirk and, therefore, we should not have proceeded to the Treaty of Brussels, nor to the stocktaking of the military position of the Brussels Treaty Powers, to which we invited representatives of Canada and the United States; and, therefore, we should not have got, so far as we can see, looking back, the beginnings of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. I think it is important to keep these earlier basic facts in mind. I also want to make my position quite plain—and I am sure I speak also on behalf of the great majority of my Party in the country—as to the reason for doing it.

The position was made equally plain, as some people think it has been made plain to-day, that some such steps to empower the Western nations to defend freedom against any departure from it were made necessary by the clear attitude of the Russian representatives during the three and a half months of the Paris Peace Conference and by the subsequent breakdown of the negotiations at the Moscow Conference of Foreign Secretaries. The attitude that we as a Government felt obliged to adopt, taking the advice of our military advisers, and gradually getting to some understanding with the United States and Canada, was that it was essential to bring about the greatest organisation of power possible, within the limits of what could then be done by Western nations, recovering from the enormous contributions that they had had to make in the general fight for freedom.

There is no doubt in my mind—subsequent events have proved it—that if we had not taken the initial step to get the Dunkirk Treaty, in announcing our decision on National Service; if we had not had National Service to give us the strength, we could not possibly have carried out our commitments, both as regards occupational forces and as regards the more violent, although more minor, outbreaks of trouble in different parts of the Commonwealth, and also our general Commonwealth policing work. The building up of the Western defence service in general could not have been carried on for the length of time that we carried it on, unless we had had adequate personnel to do it.

There came a time—and all these things must be borne in mind—in the late 1940s, when the attitude of the Russians in Germany was such that my Government had to co-operate with the United States in a vast and continuous airlift to relieve the West German section of Berlin and other surrounding West German territory. Without that organised operation we should perhaps not be in the position even that we are to-day, of being able still to discuss what we are to do. That particular phase led to what was perhaps the breaking of the chain in the building up of collective Western strength, because it led to the obvious conclusion that, if there was a possibility of still further developments of the Russian attitude, that certainly was something we had to guard against. That led to the triennial programme, which amounted in the first instance to an enormous figure, of which the British share was to be £3,500 million in three years and which, during the course of the early operation of that programme, we were persuaded by the United States to raise to £4,700 million.

Looking at the state of affairs to-day, and looking back, one has to sort out the contributory factors which have led to the kind of national defence and security position that we have to face to-day—apart, of course, from the other obvious scientific and technical developments in major weapons of aggression. We were able to go on with that programme right up to 1951. We had in the meantime to strengthen overseas forces; we had to send another division and squadrons of aircraft to Hong Kong, and we had to take part in the operations in Korea. Again I say that we were able to do it only because the forces were kept up to strength in manpower and equipment. Let all who contemplate the general situation of national defence and security first of all bear these basic and modern historical facts in mind.

As the Government in 1951, we were faced with a deterioration in the situation of the £, and we had been facing two Election campaigns—and here I must be political—in which the country was urged to give up controls and restrictions and told that there must be much more economic freedom for the people and no restraint. The consequence was that, instead of getting the controls for which we asked for a mandate to continue our defensive as well as economic measures, we had the political results which have gradually led up to the situation to-day. For mark the general position of our forces! They are not on the basis of the Labour plans of pre-1951. Our expenditure has been increasing from year to year almost up to the full monetary position in figures that would be one-third of the £4,700 million programme. But we have not the forces or manpower, or the equipment, that would have been provided under the estimates of costs in 1949 to 1951. As a result of the general economic policy and a free-for-all, we have had to continue spending almost the same figurative amount on the armed forces, yet finding delivered far less, in really trained manpower and the modern equipment that we need to-day, than was planned. I want to make that clear as my plain opinion of what the situation is.

Having regard to what I have said, your Lordships will see that my conviction, at any rate, is that if we are to have an adequate defence against the possibilities of the onward march of totalitarian Communism in the world we must go on supporting the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. But there are more ways than one in which that can be done. It seems to me that if this country was in fact one of the countries responsible for bringing into being the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, we ought to have and to continue to retain the most vital influence in that Organisation. The question I ask myself after the Paris Conference is, do we still retain that position? Of course, in the United States the Conference is claimed as a general victory for the enormous programme which is now foreshadowed in the record total amount of the Budget announced in the President's message to Congress. We are told it is a victory, whereas it is quite clear, from reading the concurrent detailed and informed Press accounts, that there was a good deal of division of opinion among certain members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

When we come to consider that position, I wonder whether we have done all that we could, as a nation, to retain our vital influence in the Organisation and to be able to speak our mind at the right time. First of all, we dealt a shattering blow to our influence in the Organisation by the Suez adventure; of that there can be no doubt at all. The details of that matter I am certainly not going to discuss this afternoon. But the other thing which I think has had an equally deteriorating effect upon our influence is the fact that we find, if we look the facts straight in the face, that we as a nation at the present time are in process of unilateral disarmament, included in which is the withdrawing of certain British forces from the occupational forces. We must bear in mind that it was Sir Anthony Eden, as Foreign Secretary, who gave the pledge, wise or unwise, that we would retain our occupational forces there for fifty years. We cannot close our eyes and ears to the utterances amongst the Powers as to the general effect upon the collective strength of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, especially in view of the dangerously increasing offensive power of a potential enemy, of our withdrawing forces at this time.

I think there is a lot of sound logic in the Ministers who have said that we must do the best we can in present circumstances and we ought not to have to take more than the fair share we have to bear. That was always a point in my mind when I was arguing with Ministers of Defence of other countries in the years 1947–50. But if you want to retain the vital influence in this great Western Organisation, you must, in both those matters I have mentioned, see to it that you consult them first. Was that done? There was certainly no consultation over Suez, and I do not know that there was any consultation at all about the reduction of our occupational forces. Some people say that perhaps there were consultations; others on the Continent have denied that there were any such consultations. However, I am putting this position forward because I want our country to be a worthy member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which was set up with our help purely for defensive, and not offensive, reasons. I feel that if we are to make it into the wider organisation, as is indicated—and I am glad to see it indicated—in the White Paper, of economic co-operation in general, then we must have the common sense to be really frank with all our Allies in that Organisation, and before we do things have consultations with them.

I would add also that when we come to the general consideration, as we must do, of what is to be done about the great and new powerful weapons that are called the ultimate deterrents, we must remember that all the Western nations have said that, even if an agreement were made, partial or whole, on the banning or putting out of action for the time being of this ultimate deterrent, it would not be satisfactory to them unless we proceeded to a wider and fuller agreement covering conventional weapons as well. I beg the House to note that in the process you are now in the middle of pursuing, of unilateral disarmament, you will have little to put on the table if it comes to a discussion, ultimately, on the banning of the ultimate deterrent and then continuing to a further agreement on conventional weapons.

I must say, too, that I think it is much to be regretted that we have been forced to this position of unilateral disarmament not because of international political considerations; we have been forced to this position, as I understand the statements of the Government from time to time, purely on economic grounds. And those economic national results can truly and fairly be laid at the door of the "free-for-all" policy for the community ever since 1951. I think that that is a very serious position to take for a country which must, whatever mistakes this section or that section of political opinion may make from time to time, secure its defence and its security.

Having said that, let me say a few words about some details of the present defence position. The announcement was made last July by the Minister of Defence of the reorganisation of the Army. I am certainly not going into any of the minor differences that have taken place about the regimental dispositions which the Government desire. But I do remember that all this arose out of the decision to cut the Army very much indeed and to do away with National Service and finally to bring in a system by 1960, if possible, of voluntary recruitment. I said at the time that I thought it was very unwise to make a public decision on the abolition of National Service without first having ascertained, as nearly as possible, that you would be able to meet your target of manpower in the Army by 1960.

Since then most of us have been watching the recruiting figures closely, and I have been able to obtain some estimated figures which I think are most important and far-reaching. They were prepared, strangely enough, by my honourable and gallant friend in another place Mr. George Wigg, who, again strangely enough, has an Adjournment Motion on this matter on this very day. When I examined these careful estimates I came to the conclusion that the Government ought to consider this matter again and try to find out what should be done. An announcement was made (I have not the exact reference in my mind) to the effect that it was the intention of the Government, within about twelve months, to reduce the target for three-year enlistments to an annual figure of about 1,000—I think I am right—and to promote enlistments for periods of six years and nine years respectively, including, of course, any re-enlistments from those periods for even longer periods of service, if acceptable, afterwards.

I have looked at these figures most carefully. In dealing with the strength, we have to take into account what will be the actual number of men serving under the existing three-year enlistment. The calculation is that in 1957 the number under this enlistment was 21,000. But in 1958 we take into account only the expected recruitment of 1,000 per year under the new plan, and the figure will have dropped to 3,000; and by 1959 it will still be 3,000. In 1961 the strength at the beginning will be 9,000, and the intakes in 1958, 1959 and 1960 will be 3,000, and so it goes on until 1964. You get 1,000 in each of the years 1961, 1962 and 1963.

If you take the effect of the figures which have been estimated for the longer-service enlistments, you find that, in the six-year enlistment category, starting in 1957, there should be just over 3,000, and that in each of the next five years there will be added (if you take the optimistic figure enlisted for the month of November, 1957, as likely to be continuous through that period), an actual figure of 9,972, which would give a strength in 1963 for the six-year enlistments of 52,000-odd men. Without going through the details I can say that in the case of the nine-year enlistments there would be a total in 1963 of 13,265. That makes a total of just over 66,000. With the further addition of the three-year enlistments, and with the addition of those who enlist as boys and who will have fairly long service—perhaps an average of eight years—and allowing for a fixed figure of, say, 18,000 officers, the strength by 1963 would not be more than 109,000, whereas we have understood from the target of the Minister of Defence that his requirements for the Army at that date will be 165,000. That is a very large shortage. What is to be done in those circumstances?

It could well be argued by people who have had the sort of experience that I have had in regard to National Service that you ought to make quite sure that you have something at work to replace your lack of voluntary recruits by National Service. But it seems to me (the Minister who replies will correct me if I am wrong) that the decision to revert from National Service to voluntary recruitment was taken without having in mind a certain plan to be operated if there should be a shortage of recruits.

Various experts that I have met have examined this problem, and I was interested in the note in the leader in the Daily Telegraph of January 16 emphasising that, in their view, the ending of conscription is anti-inflationary in the long run and therefore worth what they called the extra expense in the short run. We do not yet know, and I take it that we must wait until we have the annual Defence White Paper and the various Departmental Estimates to know whether it is the intention of the Government to launch a special scheme of high inducements to potential voluntary recruits. I am told that "Rumour is a lying jade," but there have been a good many people who have an opinion—this is one of the matters upon which dispute arose among Ministers which led to resignations—as to the amount to be provided to boost the number of voluntary recruits. Of course, that will remain to be seen by events as they emerge, unless, of course, the Minister in charge to-day can tell us more about that particular aspect of the matter.

I should have hoped that the country would not want to reach back into a National Service scheme of the magnitude and breadth of the one which we have had operating for the past few years; but if we are going to be faced with some form of service it is almost certain that, in existing circumstances, it would not be possible to rely upon the general kind of National Service that we have had, but that some selective scheme of service would be required. But directly you come to a selective scheme of service you find that you have so many exemptions or long delays in the professional and technical categories—from the medical, engineering and scientific sides—that in the end it would be the poor ordinary industrial, general clerical and lower middle-class section which would have to bear the burden of selective conscription. Therefore, I hope that we may have at least some general indication from the Government about how it is proposed to deal with what seems at present, on all the reasonable estimates that we can make, to be a serious lag behind the target—the reduced target, let me emphasise—for the Forces which was set by the Minister of Defence in his Statement last April.

There is another thing I should like to ask about which gives me some cause for concern. Your Lordships will remember that there was issued a dispatch from the Commander-in-Chief of the Government's forces which were engaged in the expedition to Suez. I want to draw special attention to two short paragraphs. At page 5328, in paragraph 3, he mentions among the main limitations to his operations: limited resources of landing craft and air transport, and he says: We had only a total of 18 L.S.T.s and L.C.T.s. We had an air lift for two battalions but very limited air supply resources.s On page 5330 he again emphasises: The next problem was when to use our airborne forces. We had a limited airborne effort but in particular our air supply lift and air supply resources were very restricted. I believe that as recently as in the Defence Paper of April, 1957, the Minister laid down that there were to be central reserve forces and that, because of the need for moving them about, an ample or sufficient lift to convey them must be provided. Will anybody suggest that the kind of resources placed at the disposal of the Commander-in-Chief whom I have just quoted were anything like adequate?

The original Labour Government programme provided that by Hastings and certain other classes of aircraft we could have reached, certainly long before 1957. a total airlift weight of nearly 6½ million lb.; and, so far as I can gather, taking an estimate of the wastage that has taken place in the planes built under that programme, we have had delivered as replacements only about forty-seven Beverleys. I believe that there are Britannias on order but not one has been delivered, and I should like to ask the Minister a straight question: whether the total airlift at our disposal to-day would reach 2½ million lb. I hasten to say that, disastrous as a position of that kind is, and could be in an emergency, the same thing applies to naval craft and should also be very carefully examined. In fairness to this country, I would say that if one looks at the evidence of Admiral Radford, the Allied Chief, before the Congressional Committee, one sees that he had to admit that they had not sufficient transport planes to give an airlift to one division to any other place in the world—and America is the principal military country in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. These things that I am saying to your Lordships this afternoon are not just wisps of fancy. So far as I can check them, they are the facts, and I want to ask the House, and the country if need be, whether they are satisfied with our state of defence and security.

There are one or two other things I should like to say briefly. I am sorry to have taken so long, but I wanted to be quite careful about my facts. From the beginning of my association with my noble friend Lord Attlee in setting up the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, I have argued the vital importance of being able to proceed at our international discussions from strength. I have never Jailed to support that principle. I am not for a moment saying that that view has always been secured from every section of the supporters of my Party; nor has that been so in other Parties. But I have wanted to be able to proceed to argue from strength. But the situation to-day is that, while we have become, on the whole, very much stronger than we were, to take a date, in 1948–49, when we were still in course of beginning a build-up, nevertheless Russia has grown much stronger still and is all the time under the great advantage that by her totalitarian and cruel methods at home she can so move up or down the standard of life of her people as to make sure, whenever she wants to concentrate on technology and scientific rearmament, that everything else goes by the board. That is a very serious position. During the whole of the time that we have gone on increasing our strength there has never been any let-up in the numerous conferences with Russia on disarmament and cognate subjects.

Is it to be thought that in our present economic position, with the continued drain not merely upon our resources but also upon American resources, with the kind of Budget now projected by the President, the free populace in these countries will accept a continuance of that rate of expenditure to enable us to say that we are going to negotiate only from strength? Or have we to return to a very old and, I believe, on the whole, in our history a well-tried system—to arm as much as we can and to parley?

That is almost all I have to say. I am afraid that I have taken too much of your Lordships' time but I do beg this House and the other House, and the nation, to note some of the facts that I have tried to put before your Lordships; and I beg of Her Majesty's Government that when they come to present their White Paper on Defence within the next few months they will try to give the country some hope on two things. First, we want to be sure that they are seeing what they can do to improve the efficiency of the defences that we have and deciding a better basis for the defences we may yet have. If we are going to cut our Army by one half then we must surely give them much more powerful weapons of defence. What, and at what cost? It is matters of this kind that I have never heard discussed or projected here, and which we ought to know when we are dealing with major defence policy in the circumstances in which we live today.

The second thing for which I would ask is that there should be a clear indication not only that there may be closer consultations between this country and other N.A.T.O. members before we go into individualistic action, but also that the members of the N.A.T.O. Council will see that they are in control. We have had a great deal of anxiety shown in this country about flying hydrogen bombs in American aviation practices and the like. All kinds of things have been appearing. I have been reading of the kind of mentality that gets into the minds of professional staffs when one is dealing with these things. I have protested over and over again about the policy statements made by high officers in the course of the last five or six years. Let me quote from the Royal United Services Journal of November, 1956. Though this is not in quite the same category it indicates a frame of mind.

In answering questions after a lecture on "The Panorama of Warfare in the Mechanical Age," the noble and gallant Viscount Field Marshal Lord Montgomery of Alamein said this: We at S.H.A.P.E., at Supreme Headquarters in Europe, with the full political agreement of the N.A.T.O. Council, are basing all our plans on the fact that if we are attacked we use nuclear weapons in our defence. That is to say, if we are attacked by conventional weapons we will use nuclear weapons in reply. That is agreed, he says, with the full agreement of the N.A.T.O. Council. He continues: The only proviso is that the politicians have to be asked first. That might be a bit awkward, of course, and personally I would use the nuclear weapons first and ask afterwards. I believe that a firm statement on those lines by the West would stop any aggression. He went on to say: As regards the difference between the tactical and the atomic weapon, we do not distinguish them; we use a nuclear weapon if we are attacked. Now it is a nice point which you might take me up on as to whether it is considered likely that in the limited war such as, for instance, of the size of Korea, if it occurred again, nuclear weapons would be used. He added: I would not call Korea a small war. It was quite a party, and it is my view that if a war of the size of Korea occurred again nuclear weapons would be used. I do not say our political masters would agree, but you asked me what I thought!

It is about time, I think, that, from the American, British, German and French sources, statements on policy, military and other, of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation should be confined to ministerial statements. When the country expresses its anxiety about the way in which atomic weapons are thrown in practice, they are bound to take note of what is being said of this sort of thing and how far they can trust the particular finger which is likely to be on the trigger. As to my second point, therefore, I do beg that the Government will see to it that statements, when they are made, are made by Ministers and not by professional staffs.

In conclusion, I will ask the House, and the country, to believe—and I am quite sincere when I say this—that perhaps one of the most notable things (which most of our Press did not report) at the N.A.T.O. meeting in Paris was that, at the end, the President of the United States asked the delegates to stand and join in prayer. It was noted at the time of the settling of the basis of the United Nations Organisation at San Francisco that nobody bothered to think that prayer was required. But if ever this nation required to resort to prayer for its condition and security, I do not recognise the need as being greater than it is at the present. I bet; to move for Papers.

3.24 p.m.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE had given Notice of his intention to move, That there be laid before the House a Paper relating to the plan of military disengagement in Central Europe, to include relevant statements by Sir Anthony Eden at Geneva, Mr. Allan Rapacki at the United Nations, President Eisenhower. Mr. Khrushchev and others, with a view to enabling the opinion of this House to be further expressed before definite commitments are made as to the distribution and control of nuclear weapons in Europe. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, you may well think it bold for a private Member of the House and a civilian to put his name down to speak in this debate. I listened with great pride to the account given by my noble friend and Leader, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, of the part played by the Labour Party in the war and in the construction of the, North Atlantic Treaty Organisation., As a defensives shield its value has been proved, and no one desires to destroy it. But if my noble Leader will permit me to say it, he seems to have made his speech—I am not complaining of it—in a "pre-Sputnik" setting. He told us about the number of recruits, the difficulty in getting recruits, the number of recruits in five years' time, and so on but what he did not mention until the end of his speech—again, I am not criticising his speech—is that one bomb would destroy your recruits of fifty years at once. It is in the "post-Sputnik", post-bomb era that we really have to consider the problem. Therefore, it is in no sense in contradiction or criticism of what my noble Leader has said that I put down a Motion which asks that certain considerations should be taken into account before we go further and deeper into the nuclear era.

The strain is immense. We cannot keep it up. I do not profess to have the figures exactly in mind, but when one reads that 4,000 million dollars is to be added to the American Budget for missiles alone, it must be obvious that our small country can do nothing. It is quite impossible to compete with that sort of thing. We are clean out of the race. And when we come to a stage—and this is the particular reason for my venturing to address your Lordships—when we are going to spread among all the fifteen N.A T.O. Powers the potential ability to set that type of war in motion, then I think it is a reasonable and cautious thing to ask your Lordships if the Government would tell us whether they have explored every other possible way before we are submerged in this sea, in which we shall be very small fish.

I think that one of the most depressing things of to-day is to read the accounts of what goes on in the discussions of our great ally, the United States of America. You may have read Mr. Sherman Adams this morning, or Mr. Dean Acheson. They are not denouncing Russia; they are proving, on the one hand that the Democrats, and on the other hand that the Republicans, are responsible for the condition in which they find themselves. It shows a lamentable lack of proportion, of which we are not guilty. We recognise, and I am sure the Government do—it is recognised on both sides of the House—that we have an absolutely common and united desire to defend our country. The lack of proportion in America is a dangerous thing, but more dangerous still is the fact that one would have to search with a powerful glass to find in the American speeches any idea of how to settle this matter, except by a vast and mounting increase in nuclear power. There is no other idea at all—nothing. A cheque, somebody said, can settle anything. That is not so. It is absurd to use fantastic phrases, but a cheque might cause tremendous and inconceivable harm to mankind.

Therefore, what I am asking is this, that before we carry out the apparent intention to supply and authorise every one of the fifteen members of N.A.T.O.—to supply them either under control or otherwise—to use atom bombs and ultimately to authorise their use by their commanders, we should explore other avenues. Because what my noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough said was perfectly true: a commander is not going to wait for a word from someone at a distance who can perhaps reply only slowly, if he sees an instant military need be will meet it, and if it has to be met with a nuclear weapon, he will meet it with a nuclear weapon. In my opinion, Lord Montgomery of Alamein spoke the plain truth. As a Parliamentarian I believe that the control should be retained by Parliament. But when you come to a moment of acute emergency, the duty of a military officer is to succeed with the means at his disposal.

Therefore, all that I intend to ask the Government, and it is only, one might say, an addendum to the debate, is what their policy is in reference to exploring other avenues before this decision to distribute the bomb to the N.A.T.O. Powers is finally made. Have they some plan? Is there something they are aiming at? Or are they a sort of blind Samson, like the United States, merely attempting to amass, or to get others to amass on our behalf, a mighty strength, and will then consider what to do. On the other hand, have they considered the situation, particularly the more recent situation, in order to see whether there are some means, if not of solving, of mitigating, or beginning to mitigate, this horrid affair?

If I may run through from memory the situation since the war, it was like this. At the end of the war the bomb was exploded at Hiroshima. That hastened, or tended to hasten, the end of the Japanese war. Incidentally, historically, that will not be its record; it will be recorded historically as an event which stamped for a long time to come the Asian thinking on world affairs. Then the strain between ourselves and the Soviet Government increased. Our relations with them have always been on a basis of strict realism. In 1919 we did our best to prevent their coming into existence. Efforts have been made to reach agreement from time to time. I think that one of the most successful visits was that of Sir Anthony Eden to Moscow in 1935. But after the war the Dictator of Russia showed tendencies to try to build up again, on a Bolshevik foundation, the great Empire of the Czars. This caused a great amount of anxiety. so much so that Sir Winston Churchill, as he tells us himself, at one time sent a telegram to Field-Marshal Montgomery telling him to be ready to hand over arms to the Germans to prevent any further Russian advance.

That is a relationship of what we may call intelligent realism, a relationship which is based upon what is imagined to be for the moment our community of interests. But people were seriously concerned and we were always told (I hope I am right in this, but I am only a member of the public) that it was all right; that they could not act because we had a monopoly of the Bomb. That reassured everybody. We had the monopoly of the Bomb and so long as we had the Bomb, they would be kept in order. But the appearance of the sputnik began to turn back the pages and made it clear that we did not have the monopoly of the bomb, and that at some point Russia had enough of this power to commence the general destruction which the bomb involves. When the sputnik went into the sky, people were rather too excited about it, but it became clear by all measures that partly—I do not think I would say entirely—public enthusiasm, combined with central and severe disciplinary organisation (I have visited Russia widely three times and have seen something of this), had produced a technological level which was extremely high.

When the Russians were in this position of strength, with their sputnik and with their technology, one would have expected that they would have renewed their diplomacy of firm demands, wanting this and wanting that, because they were in a position of strength at that time and they knew it—although we did not know it. Yet they did not do this. For some reason or another they pursued a policy of going around the world spreading the idea that they were pursuing a policy of peace and that we were opposing it. And they had a tremendous success in this. I was in India at the time Mr. Bulganin and Mr. Khrushchev made their tour and they had a great success in persuading the people of Asia and of the uncommitted countries of their policy. They did not put forward a number of demands for themselves, backed by their inner knowledge of their power. What reply are we going to make, on our initiative? We do not want to wait until other people put forward a policy and then try to prove that they have some sinister motive behind them. We want a policy of our own. When any idea comes forward, we should examine it and, in my modest judgment, the Government should say whether it is a policy they can support and whether it will help us or not.

For some months now Mr. Adam Rapacki, the Polish Foreign Minister, has been promoting the idea that it would be possible to have an area of Europe which should be free from nuclear weapons. He thinks, and I think most people would agree, that if there were an area such as he has in mind—I have forgotten what the square mileage is, but it has about 100 million people—in which nuclear weapons would be forbidden. effective control could be enforced. It is not a new idea that we should have a "demilitarised" area—I do not know what the right word is, but this type of area. It was put forward in one form by Sir Anthony Eden when in Geneva in 1955. But this suggestion was renewed by Mr. Rapacki at the United Nations in October. It was approved and patronised by Mr. Bulganin in his recent letter to the Prime Minister. The modest proposal of the Poles, which was that they, in agreement with the Czechs and the East Germans, should ban nuclear weapons from their countries, was embroidered and enlarged authoritatively by Mr. Bulganin in his letter, when he said that so far as the Russians were concerned they were prepared to join in the scheme; and at one point he said that they were willing to withdraw their troops from the satellite States.

What do we say to that? What is our policy? I listened to Mr. Selwyn Lloyd's speech in another place and read what the Prime Minister said, but I have never heard the Government tell us what is the objection to an examination of this scheme. It does not matter whether we have a summit talk or not—as Mr. Dulles said rightly the other day, all talks are summit talks. No talks can take place without the assent of the "All-High", and it does not matter at what level it is. But is this scheme to be examined, and, if so, what will be the judgment of the Government on it? Its advantages, if it were possible, are patent.

First of all, it would relieve the area involved of a tremendous sense of strain. We are still an island, although hardly an island in the air era; but the strain of people living in Czechoslovakia or on the Oder-Neisse border is very much greater than anything we can conceive. It would enormously relieve the financial strain. It would avoid also the very difficult question that is coming—namely, who is going to have the launching sites. I can imagine that the Danes and the Norwegians will not be very popular if it is known that they have refused to be the targets for attack but are willing to profit from the fact that other countries are willing to have the sites and take up the position of being targets. Furthermore, if such a scheme were possible (I do not say it is possible; there may be some irrefutable argument against it, but I have never heard it and it has never been put forward by the Government) the political effect would be enormous.

The sore point in Europe, as everyone knows, is the German frontiers with Czechoslovakia and with Poland. Once Dr. Adenauer has the atom bomb he will be in a position to veto any decision, because he will be in a position to pull the trigger that brings the whole world down. But so long as there is this unification of the two Germanies—if it is possible; if the Russians think again—and there are no nuclear weapons, there is a much better chance of dealing with the question of the frontiers. If you speak to a Czech or to a Pole about East Germany—we speak about East Germany as something you must not mention; you must not call it a State—you Lind that to them East Germany is the one part of organised Germany which, has accepted the boundaries and made a treaty to that effect. So far as the Bonn Government are concerned, I do not know what their policy is. But there are people in Federal Germany to-day who claim that the settlement made at Munich and the frontiers fixed at Munich are still the legal frontiers of Germany; and so long as any substantial body of opinion takes that view, it must be obvious that there cannot be peace in that part of the world.

Will the Russians do any of these things? It is pure speculation as to whether they will, and I do not know. Some remarkable speeches were made on the wireless a few months ago by Mr. Kennan, an expert who has a great knowledge of Russia and also a great knowledge of diplomacy. The sort of argument he puts forward is this. He says: Is it not possible that, after the Hungarian experience, and knowing perhaps more about the state of public opinion in the neighbouring small States than we do, the Russians have come to the conclusion that they would be well advised not to hold these countries by a display of force? So far as I know, there are no Russians in Czechoslovakia; but there are in Poland and in East Germany. If the Russians were out of East Germany, then the whole solution of the unification of Germany is settled, because the fact that they are there and will not move until some settlement is made is the great stumbling block. If they will do these things, there will be an immense advantage for the peace of Europe.

Finally, Mr. Kennan said this—and I was very much struck by what he said: Are we doing the outlook of the Russian public full justice? We always imagine them as people who are crushed under the heel—and I have no doubt there is a lot of truth in that. But they are also a great people who are very proud of their own country. They have great pride in building a new dam or making a new road, and they regard that as a proof of the success of their way of life. I remember in the war they regarded the destruction of the Dueipestroi, which they had to do when the Germans advanced from the Balkans, much in the same way as we should regard the destruction of Westminster Abbey. Therefore, is it possible that one of the thoughts in their minds is a desire to maintain and protect from atomic attack these wonderful productions—their great university, with its skyscraper, and even their underground railway and other monuments of their industry, some produced under duress, but much of it produced by patriotic pride.

Some time ago I went to the Black Sea; and all along the banks of the Black Sea to the Crimea and right round to the Turkish border was one array of convalescent homes on which millions and millions of roubles had been spent. I asked myself: How can these people be so foolish as to erect all these targets which would disappear overnight if the Turkish Fleet came across the sea? Therefore, one reason that may explain the strange conduct of the Russians in not taking advantage of their temporary military strength may be pride and the desire to protect their own internal achievements. Another reason may be that they think the success of their ideology, their philosophy, is more likely to be achieved if they have the money to act generously to the countries of Asia that need their help. Some remarkable figures were published in detail in the New York Times a few days ago, but what I remember was a figure that came out in The Times recently, where they said that for every fifteen units (milliards, or whatever you call them) the Russians were spending, America was able to spend only nine.

I do not agree with the idea that we are on the way to Armageddon and everyone must be on one side or the other; I think that is a narrow and uninformed opinion about the state of affairs. But if it were so, it may be that the Russians consider that by economy and by putting their money into this other effort they may do better than by maintaining unwanted troops in the centre of Europe. All these things are speculation, and my own opinion has, of course, no value whatever. My only purpose in putting down the Motion is to ask the Government in their reply, before they commit us to something which will nuclearise the whole of Europe and bring right up to the border this inflammable material, which, if it is lit, will blaze a way through the whole world, to tell us whether they have examined these Polish proposals; and, if so, what their judgment is upon them.

3.48 p.m.

LORD MOYNIHAN

My Lords, it has been a great joy to listen to the speech the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, has just made and, if he will forgive me as a man at any rate a few years younger than he is for saying so, I would say that we on these Benches most heartily agree with a great deal of what he has said. Modern science has progressed—if "progressed" can be considered the right word—to such an extent that complete destruction can come at any moment. If there is to be destruction, then it is we, here in this island, who will be the first to be obliterated. Geographically we should be much happier and much safer here if many modern scientific discoveries had never been made. However, we must accept the position as it is and attempt to carry out our heritage in the way that is wisest for those who follow us.

In matters of defence, therefore, I would suggest that if we wish to survive we must speak as one voice. I was always brought up to understand that there were certain things above politics, irrespective of how we were born or what we thought, and that although, through our democratic principles, these things were always debatable, they were agreed upon by all members of all Parties. If only this debate could further that point, it would do much more than a great number of things have done since the end of the war. In another place, before the Recess there were sharp exchanges between the leaders of the two main Parties on the carrying of hydrogen bombs by American planes over this country. That was only one instance of the fact that, unless we speak as a nation, whichever happens to be the political Party in power, we can never restore our position as leaders; and if we are not leaders, the world becomes an even more dangerous place than it is at the present time.

We realise, of course, that we can no longer live in isolation, as our American friends have tried to do on more than one occasion. Now, there would appear to be little difference between defence and foreign policy. But if anyone had to live in isolation—and let me make it perfectly clear that I should never support that—then I think we should make it quite clear that our Commonwealth would find it less difficult to do so than any other nation in the world. It still seems to me that it is only on Christmas Day, when we hear that wonderful and inspiring message from Sandringham, that we realise the extent and greatness of the Commonwealth, of which we are the original member. It is true that the Prime Minister is at present on a Commonwealth tour, and I feel we should wish him every possible success in his venture. But it really is a tragedy that this is the first time that a Prime Minister has ever made such a tour. Nevertheless, it is just as important that he is making it, even though that is the case. I propose to refer to the Commonwealth later on, but unless we associate ourselves infinitely more closely with them than we are doing now, we shall not make our voice heard for the benefit of peace and prosperity.

There is one great difference between now and pre-war clays, and that is that in pre-war days the defence of this country was built up against any adversary. Nowadays, the whole world is divided into two camps, East and West, with some poor unfortunate countries between the two who have the choice neither of allegiance nor of independence. This cannot go on in perpetuity. Sooner or later either someone will go too far and the global war will have started, or, if that does not happen, the expense on both sides will amount to such excessive sums that some settlement will have to be made. I feel that the sooner that settlement is reached the better, though I think we must agree that we have now realised that we can go into such a settlement only through strength. Again, I welcome the Prime Minister's approach to this matter in his New Year's reply to Mr. Bulganin regarding a non-aggression pact. These things are so easy to scoff at—they are "another piece of paper". But an approach in that way must be made while the balance of power is reasonably stable. I know we have the sputnik against us, but that is not in itself at the moment a military weapon, and I do rot think it has proved that the Russians are so vastly superior in military strength, although they are perhaps superior at the moment in scientific discoveries.

There have been many abortive attempts at top-level talks and, of course, they of themselves are no answer. But they are at least a base upon which peace can be secured, and however doubtful we may be of the result of such talks I do not think we should refuse an opportunity when it is offered. Communism is an evil which must be kept under control. We cannot obliterate it, nor do I feel that we should attempt, at any rate at this stage, to do so; but we must not allow it to interfere with what to us is a completely different view of the value of life. I realise the great things the Russians are doing in their own country, in their buildings and everything else. But let us make one thing quite clear: their belief in life is material while ours, I hope, is still religious. Unless we realise that vast difference we cannot go completely with understanding to get the answer. But we must come to some mutual understanding whereby co-existence is possible. In fact, unless we do so our days and their days are numbered, and so our chief attempt at the moment should be for a reasoned form of disarmament to prevent what will otherwise be inevitable destruction. But under such a plan all countries must be able to live the life they wish. Hungary is too near to our thoughts for us to think that that is in actual fact the case at the present time, and we must not allow these Communist offers of peace, genuine though they may well be, to lull us into any sense of security.

By all means let us have these talks, but do not let us relinquish at this stage one iota of our defence until we have some kind of proof that there is a true move from the other side for understanding with us; and that, at the moment, has not been evident. The Government's reply to Mr. Bulganin's letter gives them a chance of showing that they are genuine. It is now up to them. It is up to them to show that all the things we have believed up to now have been pure propaganda and, more than that, that they are sincere in their wishes. However determined the Communists are to expand their doctrine, I believe they are now realising that, without some understanding with the West, they will destroy themselves as well as us.

We have accepted N.A.T.O. as our basis of defence, and to that we are pledged. I know the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, is going to speak on that particular subject a little later in the debate, and I am not going into it fully. The members of that Organisation are, of course, in theory equal, though from the material point of view we rely to a great extent on the United States of America, and in accepting this situation we have allowed this island to become a huge armoury. The example of American planes flying with hydrogen bombs is only one point. Heated arguments have been made about this matter, not because of the danger, which is completely negligible, but because the whole thing may well get out of control. We are told, and I read in the Press, that we have a complete veto on these planes. But how far is that in practice effective? Can we really stop them doing anything if they want to? I feel that the nation is very much in the dark in this question, and I would call for a positive and clear statement as soon as possible.

I realise, and I think we all do, that a complete understanding between America and ourselves is essential for the wellbeing of N.A.T.O. and, in fact, for peace in the world. We know that in a global war our alliance with America is simply signing our own death warrant, and that there is no contracting out. It is difficult to know, when we look at the question of global war and our alliance with America, whether we are right in allowing America the leadership of the West. They are a very young country, and though materially they are of the greatest help they do appear to lack that something which we in this country seem to feel and know is necessary for true leadership. Twice in war time they have procrastinated to such an extent that they came in all but too late. In peace time there has been some kind of feeling of petulance which it is very hard indeed for us to understand. I feel that we cannot hand over the leadership of the West until we are infinitely more satisfied that they are more capable of fulfilling the true function of leadership than they have been in the past. There is no certainty that in the future they might not, by an impetuous act, lead us into global war, leaving us as a mere pawn without any say in the question at all.

While we are the arsenal of the West, we really have no say in anything that happens. If, however, we worked as a Commonwealth, rather than as a nation, I think that things would be very much different. This country became great through brains and bravery. We have no vast national assets except these to offer to any possible conqueror, and those assets would never be handed over for their use if that time ever came. The present policy means that if we were destroyed our Commonwealth would be scattered and have no centre. Though a strong front is absolutely essential against the East, our part in it should be with our Commonwealth and not by ourselves.

I sincerely hope that during the Prime Minister's visits on his present tour he will encourage that idea, and that through it he will widen the West to include those countries that are not at the moment in N.A.T.O. but who are so nearly and, I sincerely hope, so genuinely attached to ourselves here. Together we could work for peace very much more strongly than we, as a nation, could on our own. As long as amateurs are allowed to speak in your Lordships' House I am going to go on fighting for a strengthening of the Commonwealth cause. Of course if we accept a united Commonwealth we must be prepared to guarantee some kind of security to them in times of trouble; and that in itself adds to the bill. But I feel that it is a very small price to pay for an, understanding and loyalty between nations which could completely change the whole destiny of the world.

The chief policy we have in N.A.T.O. seems to be the strategic distribution of nuclear weapons throughout the area. In so far as that is a proof of strength, which is the only thing the Russians understand, that must be correct, but I think that in deciding the maximum effort we can put into this we should try to consider the Communist mind. Only they, of course, know the true answer to that. But whereas the Hitler doctrine was to infiltrate by force, to go into one country after another, the Communists take the fifth column way of infiltrating from within, building up from however small a start until they have an interest in the politics of a country and, finally, control the political sphere of that particular country. Of course there is absolutely nothing new in that. I suppose that it could be claimed to have been the down fall of the Garden of Eden. But it is none the less dangerous, even in those countries, including our own, where we think it is completely impossible. In practice, it may well be the only way of winning a global war, because military conquest of that size, with the holding down of people of various countries that would be essential, would seem to me to be now an impracticability. I agree that it would be completely foolish entirely to rely on that, but we should be prepared for it, and in the defence of any country it is just as important to defend ourselves against fifth column activities from inside as it is from military aggression. I think we in this country rather tend to look at that as something quite negligible, but it is one of our weakest points.

I feel, therefore, that there should be a genuine and immediate attempt at disarmament. As we know the seriousness of our position in a global war, so we must realise that we have equal responsibilities in the way of providing defensive power in a limited war. Our policy (I may be wrong in this, but I read it as such) seems to sacrifice some of our strength in conventional weapons in order to enable us to keep up with our big brothers, in the nuclear race. Only if we can use this nuclear power for peace as well as for war should we make any efforts in that direction. Cancellation of the order for the S.R.177 was a perfect example of reducing our strength for a limited war for the sake of bigger nuclear weapons. To me, that was an extremely serious mistake. For the defence we want, to sacrifice that particular machine seemed to me to be far too high a price to pay.

Let us not forget that in saving money and personnel on defence for a limited war we may well turn it into a global war, with the consequences I have mentioned. It would be an absolute disaster if, were we to be attacked in any part of the world in a limited way by conventional weapons, we had no reply except the use of nuclear weapons. The Communists appear not to be interested in limited wars, but there is always the danger of their waging such wars, and particularly if they think they can do so without any risk of a global war. I feel that this country would fulfil its obligations much better if we went on with the limited sphere of conventional weapons rather than race side by side with people, infinitely richer than we are, towards what is bound to be the goal of pure destruction.

Let us leave atom bombs to others, and if we are going to make bombs at all, let us make bombs for peace. It is again a question of leading or following. May I reiterate what I said in the last debate? What nuclear power we have let us use in our Commonwealth, getting out of this unbelievable state of being an arsenal—or an Aunt Sally really—to be put up to be knocked down at the first possible opportunity. With our limited resources we can fully carry out our pledge to N.A.T.O. if we concentrate on highly trained mobile conventional forces. And again let us train these forces in the Commonwealth, with the Commonwealth, and not entirely by ourselves here. Let us, of course, in that include all three Services, because a small mobile Navy in the next war may well be our saving grace. I think the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, said that those of us who are not in the Government do not really know the facts of the case; that we can only read things; that we hear only as one of the public. But it would appear that we have the grave danger of running into a global war which we neither want nor can prevent.

In conclusion, may I say this. We must curb our expenditure. We cannot afford the vast sums that we are now spending on defence, and if we must save let us save on nuclear and not on conventional weapons. With our experience it must still be our duty to lead, and our first effort, surely, should be to attempt some form of disarmament and some form of understanding with the East. Let us, above all, speak with one voice in this country and, if possible, with one voice as a Commonwealth, so that, by leadership, we can bring back some hope of peace to a very despondent and demoralised world.

4.12 p.m.

LORD TEYNHAM

My Lords, I was very pleased to hear from the noble Viscount who moved this Motion that he and his Party still support N.A.T.O. in spite of one or two dissident members. I do not propose to follow the noble Viscount on the question of National Service and recruiting, as that largely refers to the Army. I was most interested, as I am sure were all your Lordships, in the most thoughtful speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan.

I should like for a few moments to deal with the proposal to establish missile stations in England and Scotland foreshadowed by the N.A.T.O. Conference. At first sight it would appear to be the right thing to do, but I should like to examine the proposal a little more closely. Surely these proposed stations will add less to the deterrent than perhaps would obsolete bombers. Bombers can at least keep in the air and they can be immune from surprise attack. What good will these missile stations do? The Russians will have their situations pin-pointed and they will become vulnerable, and surprise attack could come to them at any time.

Can we not look towards submarines equipped with missiles? Have we the design for such a submarine, bearing in mind, of course, that the Americans have one or two, and it is very likely that the Russians have some? The ideal would be the nuclear-powered submarine, equipped with missiles, which could live almost continuously under the sea. Owing to her high speed she would be very difficult to detect and destroy, and her great asset would be that she would be a movable base both for offence and defence. I cannot help feeling that the proposed land missile bases will tend to be a great waste of money, possibly out of date before they are completed, and definitely dangerous, as they will attract reprisal on land and could be so easily destroyed by the enemy.

I fully realise that it is extremely difficult to come to a proper judgment on these highly technical matters unless one is in full possession of the facts, and it may well be that Her Majesty's Government feel that they cannot fully disclose them, but I feel that much more consideration should be given to these proposed missile bases before they are in fact established. I am well aware of the immense cost of the nuclear submarine, but could not two or three American nuclear submarines be established on our Eastern seaboard, as we are the first line of defence to America? Surely that would be much better than establishing missile land bases. I presume that it is not essential to have a nuclear submarine. Why not a conventional type of submarine specially designed to carry missiles? Surely that would be much cheaper to build than the nuclear type. I think that the country should have an answer to these questions as far as it is possible to go, as I believe there is a good deal of anxiety about them.

I should like now to deal with another matter raised at the N.A.T.O. Conference. It appears that it was proposed that the Royal Navy should concentrate particularly on anti-submarine measures and that the power to strike should be left to the United States Navy. Does that mean that our Task Forces are to be immobilised and some of our aircraft carriers laid up? I think many of your Lordships would like to know a great deal more about these proposals. We have heard a good deal about the establishment of an Eastern Fleet. Can we be told what steps are being taken in that direction? It may be right to move towards a balanced collective naval force amongst ourselves and our Allies, but it must not be carried too far. We must not forget that we may have to fight a conventional local war on our own, and we must have a few, and a sufficient number, of the necessary type of ship available apart from antisubmarine vessels. I do not think the country has yet realised the possible effect of the agreements entered into at N.A.T.O. on our future naval position. Are we going to witness a reorganisation and a streamlined Navy completely under the command of a N.A.T.O. Commander, both in peace and in war? Are we going to see Coastal Command also turned over to the N.A.T.O. Command? Those are all questions to which we ought to have an answer.

I think we must know what the term "interdependence" really means. It reminds me of the word "rationalisation" which used to be bandied about by many people who did not quite know what it meant. If the word "interdependence" means anything at all, it must mean a regrouping or a rearrangement of national military forces to fit into N.A.T.O. defence, so as perhaps to avoid duplication, and that each State will make its own particular type of contribution. But I think we must hear in mind that it may well involve a loss of national sovereignty—in fact, it might be that Britain would cease to have any kind of balanced defence force. I hope that the noble Lord who is going to reply for Her Majesty's Government will be able to enlarge on these military agreements so that we shall all know where we are going.

It is generally agreed that defence must be based on a sound economy, but I must say I was rather struck by the recent speech of a member of the Opposition in another place when he indicated that it was not worth while to maintain the exchange value of sterling at the expense of the effectiveness, and hence of the morale, of the armed force on which the prestige, the greatness and the position of England depended. I cannot say that I can go quite so far as he, because of course we must strike a sound balance, and I hope that that will be done. The weaker our conventional forces become, the greater becomes the risk that they will fail to provide a cushion against wars waged with less desirable weapons. We must realise that we cannot get defence on the cheap, and I trust that in the forthcoming Defence White Paper we shall not see a slashing of the forces instead of economies in perhaps another direction.

4.18 p.m.

THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE EARL OF SELKIRK)

My Lords, this debate was originally put down as a straightforward defence debate, and the noble Viscount has changed his terminology so as to make it a debate on N.A.T.O. I take no exception to that; in fact, I think it is right and proper, because in the course of a few months we are to have a White Paper on the defence policy of the United Kingdom and it would be much more appropriate to discuss in detail on that occasion the more domestic side of defence. I do not intend to anticipate what may lie in that Paper.

I was very glad to hear the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, speaking in the very robust way he does, say that there is no need to question the support of his Party for N.A.T.O. policy. In fact, I think that he should take, as he did, proper pride in the development of this plan which was, as he says, built up while he was Minister of Defence. I think that he should take a little more pleasure than he has done in the meeting which took place in December. Frankly, I think, the communiqué which was issued on that occasion is the most informative communiqué which has ever been written about one of the ministerial meetings of N.A.T.O. It contains a great deal of information which is of considerable importance. I believe it is not only fundamental but of great advantage to this country that our policy in supporting N.A.T.O. should be bipartisan—because this is a great organisation, formulated, as the noble Viscount has said, after Czechoslovakia became a satellite and the Berlin blockade occurred. It is a defensive Alliance, comprising fifteen countries who have guaranteed each other against aggression for twenty years, and one which, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, will be of indefinite duration.

it is fair to say that such a Treaty is unprecedented, not only in the history of this country but certainly in that of the United States of America; and that is probably so of any other of its members. I would just correct the noble Viscount on one point: there is no intention of our entering into unilateral disarmament. If there should be evidence of any considerable change in Soviet policy then it might be right and proper for us to disarm. The point about our new defence policy is that to-day there is an increasing need for highly trained personnel—a need which is it not wise to underestimate. But let me correct the noble Viscount on another matter. We have not removed a single unit from Germany without the prior acquiescence of SACEUR and of our Allies.

I think it is also fair to say that during the time of its existence N.A.T.O. has gone quite a long way, and that the measure of military integration which exists to-day is without parallel in peace time. Anyone who has seen the N.A.T.O. international headquarters at work (and I believe that many of your Lordships have done so) will, I am sure, have been struck by the efficiency with which staff officers of the different nations work in the closest association, extremely harmoniously and efficiently with each other. When they say "we" they do not mean their own particular country they mean SACEUR or SACLANT, or one of the organisations to which they happen to belong. The same thing applies to the N.A.T.O. Defence College which has an Italian commander, a British second-in-command and pupils drawn from Portugal, Turkey, Belgium and, indeed, from all the other N.A.T.O. countries. This is a remarkable achievement, one which I do not think anyone can decry and which gains in strength as it is more and more understood.

If anyone should ask, "What is the necessity for this Organisation?" I would simply state the facts: that there are to-day, counting the satellites, between 300 and 350 divisions which can be called on behind the Iron Curtain. There are some 500 submaries and some 20,000 front-line aircraft; and eventually, according to their own declaration, there are to be inter-continental ballistic missiles. This is the position to-day when nobody covets one yard of Russian territory. I believe that we can claim that in our Organisation we have had some success. The noble Viscount who opened the debate emphasised the importance of arguing from strength, but I believe it is true to say that there has been no Soviet advance in Europe since the time when N.A.T.O. was formed. Broadly, their tendency has been to change the emphasis from the military to the economic and the political, and more and more to go outside Europe rather than to attempt to advance in Europe. Probably we can say that that is the measure of our success.

Turning to the political side, and considering the importance of getting a political understanding, I believe that this Organisation is necessary because if we are to make the fullest use of the resources of these countries we must draw them together, so that there can be real co-operation and an intimate sense of association. This is the more necessary to ensure that the resources are turned to the best use and that uneconomic duplication does not take place. It is well known that once a year, at least, Parliamentary representatives from the various countries of N.A.T.O. come together to discuss and learn about the problems of the Alliance. I have not yet had the pleasure of doing this myself, but I believe that those who do go come away from these meetings convinced of the importance of the work that is being done and of the necessity of seeing that it receives the fullest support.

The chief criticism that is made is that we do not exercise enough influence in the counsels of N.A.T.O. Many people have written books on how to influence one's friends. Perhaps the noble Viscount will write a hook on how to influence other countries. It is not always easy, in a gathering of fifteen countries, to ensure that one's will is necessarily the one that is accepted. But, as the noble Viscount knows well, the Organisation is there to enable voice to be given to everyone's views. The North Atlantic Council sits in permanent session and provides a channel through which any one of its members can put forward views which he wishes to voice. The Ministers meet together. Heads of States met in December last to give emphasis to what is taking place, and quite a number of things have flowed from that meeting. The first—one on which there has been some discussion to-day—is the question of interdependence. That arose from a meeting of the President and the Prime Minister in Washington, at a time when M. Spaak was also there, and serves to indicate a further step in the close co-operation between the countries. To a certain extent we have always had interdependence, but this is a recognition that it must be taken a stage further. We are not simply an assembly of national units but a single balanced force whose members can contribute those forces which they are best equipped to provide and which fall into the N.A.T.O. plan.

The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, referred to one example mentioned by the Prime Minister—the provision by the Royal Navy of anti-submarine forces for N.A.T.O., and perhaps I might elaborate upon that matter. We have our Commonwealth and Empire commitments for which we require a balanced all-purpose Navy. As the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has said, the importance of a balanced mobile Navy might be considerable in certain circumstances, and it is always necessary for the Navy to play its part in maintaining stability in different parts of the world. In the Atlantic, however, N.A.T.O.'s main task is the maintenance of communications; that is no new task for the Royal Navy—indeed, it is a problem we have had for more than forty years. But that does not mean that our carriers there would not carry fighters or strike aircraft; in fact, they would be defenceless without them. It does mean, however, that greater emphasis would be placed on anti-submarine aircraft and equipment of all kinds.

The other point to which the noble Lord, Lord Teynham, referred was control. There is no alteration in control. The position of the control of the Royal Navy is exactly as it always was under N.A.T.O. We have declared virtually the whole of our naval forces to N.A.T.O. and in the event of global war they come entirely under the control of N.A.T.O. Command. But in peace time our naval forces are, as usual, entirely under the control of the naval authorities. We do, of course, conduct a substantial number of exercises and work closely with N.A.T.O. staff in the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, and we are constantly exchanging information and knowledge about our defence equipment. But it is only in the event of global war that our Navy comes under N.A.T.O. Command.

One other point I should mention which is of importance is this: the field of research, development and production. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has very properly said that we cannot afford all we want. That is true, I dare say, of Russia, and, I have no doubt, of America too. What is important is that, so far as possible, we should share the cost, particularly in the research and development fields, because there the increasing cost of producing modern weapons is extremely heavy. What we intend is that certain countries should specialise in certain types of research and development and production in order to meet the requirements of their fellow countries. What I can say here is that a good deal of the preliminary work has been completed, and is being carried on, and that is particularly so in the field of research and development.

There are other fields, of course, in which the meetings were successful which have not been mentioned to-day, and I would refer to them shortly. N.A.T.O. agreed to extend the field in which they were prepared to examine problems, particularly a closer association with the Baghdad Pact. Indeed, the representatives of Turkey called a meeting of the Baghdad Pact Powers before the N.A.T.O. Council, so that they could speak authoritatively on the views of the countries in that part of the world. It was also recognised that part of the defensive armour of the Free World was to assist in providing a rising standard of living in non-Communist countries. I am sure that no one differs from that in principle, and, indeed, we welcome the assurances given by the President of the United States for increasing both the Development Loan Fund and the lending authority of the Import Export Bank. This sustained flow of dollars will be of great value not only to the whole of the Free World but particularly to the less-developed countries.

The noble Lord, Lord Teynham, asked a question about intermediate-range ballistic missiles. I will only say here that discussions are proceeding with the United States authorities, and that there is nothing further I can say at the present time, though a statement will be made as soon as anything has been arranged on I that point.

My Lords, I do not want to go into the foreign affairs field in this debate—I think it would be wrong—but there is a good deal of emphasis on the anxiety felt on the divisions which divide Europe at the present time. I must say that I always feel the words "competitive coexistence" strike me as a pretty low level of life, and we ought to strive to achieve something a little more constructive than that. We have, of course, invented these weapons of immense power, and it is the supreme test of our civilisation whether we are going to be wise enough to live in peace with them.

I have discussed the various aspects of the military strength of N.A.T.O. May I turn to one or two other things which have been suggested? I should at the outset like to say to the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, that it really is not quite true to say either that we have no other plan or, indeed, that we had not tried other policies. I would ask the noble Viscount whether he would be good enough to look at the Communiqué and see the passages on disarmament, paragraphs 8 to 17. It seems to be a pretty full statement on all we have struggled for in this country for years and still are in trying to get a measure of agreement at the present time.

Two things have been mentioned in some detail here. One is what is called discussions at the Summit, and I would just say this: I think it is an illusion to believe that the only way in which we can ever get agreement is between heads of States, if an agreement is going to endure, I believe it is perfectly possible to reach it at a lower level. In the second place, a Summit meeting would actually do more harm than good unless it reached a substantial measure of success; it would be a terrible disillusionment and, indeed, there would be an increase of tension. It is for that reason that I am certain that a great deal of preparatory work would be necessary before we should enter into anything of that sort. If I may say so, the sort of lack of courtesy with which the Soviet spokesman is reported to-day to have spoken of our Foreign Secretary does not seem the best method of procedure for this type of thing.

The noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, has also raised the problem of what is generally called disengagement. He was speaking, he said, as a private Member. When he regards himself as a private Member, I often wonder what the rest of us are. Be that as it may, I think in his Motion—though he did not say much about it—he asked whether we could help him in getting the information together. I can assure him that all the statements on this subject have been made public, and if he has difficulty in obtaining copies I should, of course, be glad to give him any assistance; but I do not think it is necessary for the Government to put those statements together.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that there have been many sources of these suggestions, starting mainly with the Polish Foreign Minister's statement? Could not the Government consider whether the Foreign Office might, in the course of some White Paper in which they would deal with the points themselves, include the documents from these various sources?

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

I should be glad to let the noble Viscount know all that we know about the statements. There are only about three or four, I think, but I should be glad to do that. I should not like to undertake to make a special document—we are not a reference library, and publications must have some sort of purpose. What I wish to say to the noble Viscount is that the letter of Mr. Bulganin referred, of course, to a nuclear-free zone. As the Prime Minister has said in his reply, we are studying this with a view to seeing whether there are elements in it which can be made the basis of some alternative proposal. That is already being considered now, and I assure the noble Viscount that it will be considered extremely carefully. But I should like to say this—and I do not want him to misunderstand me—that we should take no action of this sort except in full concert with our Allies in N.A.T.O.

These proposals make no reference to the reunification of Germany. That does not appear in any of the proposals at all. I believe that Mr. Rapacki makes no reference to evacuating East Germany. I should like to emphasise that we regard the reunification of Germany as an essential element to future stability on the Continent. We have no intention of deserting Germany by any arrangement of this sort. I would add that, so far as I can see from the German Chancellor's reply, this proposal does not seem to commend itself to him. But I would add this point: we have really no particular reason to believe that this particular proposal would increase security, because with the modern weapons, with much longer range, it is difficult to see how a limited nuclear-free zone would be of any greater strength in maintaining security.

I would end by saying this: we intend to play our full part, commensurate with our economic strength, in the N.A.T.O. alliance. We have done so in the past and we intend to do so in the future. I think we can say that N.A.T.O. has achieved quite a lot during its life and I believe its basic structure, with commands in Paris, Portsmouth and Norfolk, Virginia, is sound. Their staffs are working well together and their common services are being used with increasing effectiveness. Adjustments, of course, will be necessary from time to time to meet new methods and new weapons. No doubt there will be growing pains; but I am confident that both the direction in which the growth is taking place and the strength of the association are matters on which we can be well satisfied.

May I add this final word? We are members of a great defensive Alliance, whose central purpose is to deter aggression against any one of its members. We have an immense interest in maintaining world peace, probably greater than any other country in the world. Our whole trade position, our whole survival, depends on international conditions: and we believe profoundly in free institutions, in human rights and in human dignity. These purposes can best be pursued by giving our full support to N.A.T.O. If we hold together, there is small danger of aggression, but if we allow any action, or any sequence of actions, to weaken this position, we may probably find ourselves defeated piece by piece. I have endeavoured to answer the points which the noble Viscount has raised. The point about recruiting will be answered by my what the noble Viscount is saying is noble friend Lord Mancroft when he replies later.

4.42 p.m.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, I believe that I have the right of asking leave to withdraw my Motion. That I intended to do at the end of the debate, but I think that it would serve the purpose of the debate better if I did it now. I have never heard a reply which was so disappointing and so depressing as the noble Earl's reply on the question of the Rapacki proposal. He says that I can see it in the newspapers. Of course I can see it in the newspapers but this is an Assembly of Parliament. He says that we cannot do anything without the North Atlantic Council. I put in my Motion that it should come before the Atlantic Council, but what the noble Earl has failed to tell us up to now is that the Government will give any serious attention to a proposal, coming from the highest quarter, which suggests that three great countries of Europe should neutralise themselves and which, secondly, has been supported by the Russian Prime Minister, who has said that Russian troops may withdraw from Eastern Europe. The noble Earl says that that makes no contribution to the reunification of Germany. We cannot re-debate the matter now, but it is perfectly certain that the noble Earl's reply will strike dismay into the hearts of people who saw perhaps some escape at the last moment from this nuclear disaster.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

My Lords, I am always encouraged when the noble Viscount says that my reply is disappointing, because probably it is better than he suggests, but I must assume with great respect the noble Viscount has just not heard what I said in my remarks. Either that or the noble Viscount is deliberately distorting what I said, which I trust he is not doing. I said that in the reply which the Prime Minister has made already to Mr. Bulganin, which I can only conclude the noble Viscount has not read, this proposal of a nuclear free zone is being closely examined.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

I know that.

THE EARL OF SELKIRK

If the noble Viscount knows it, why does he say that it is not taken seriously? I think that what the noble Viscount is saying is absolute nonsense.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, we need not charge one another with not reading one another's documents—a pardonable offence—but I do not think that the noble Earl has read my Motion. Would the Government postpone the distribution of nuclear weapons to fifteen petty N.A.T.O. Powers until this question of Polish neutralisation has been settled?

THE EARL OF SWINTON

My Lords, may I ask the noble Viscount this question, as he proposes withdrawing his Motion after the extreme denunciation he has just delivered. The noble Earl, Lord Selkirk, as I understood him, said plainly that the Polish proposal would be commented upon when the British Government made their statement in reply to the Bulganin letter. Would the noble Viscount not agree that it is much more important to everybody in this country, and also to all the N.A.T.O. Powers, to have not some isolated consideration of one proposal but the considered pronouncement of the Government, both on the Bulganin letter and on this Polish proposal, and also on all other matters which are relevant, all of which must be considered surely in their proper perspective? That, I understand, is what the Government are taking time to do and are proposing to do. One thing I thought the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, wanted, or certainly other noble Lords on his Benches would wish, is an initiative from the British Government and not merely a re-statement of everything everybody else has said.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

My Lords, if I may be permitted to reply to the question put to me, I would say that I do not at all disagree with the noble Earl. All I am saying is: do not make a decisive reply, such as the decision to install these nuclear sites, until this issue has been clarified.

4.46 p.m.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

My Lords, I hope that I shall still be in order if, in a moment or two, I make some reference to what the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, said in his earlier speech. This debate is not one of the easiest defence debates we have had in your Lordships' House for some time: it comes only a short time before the White Paper. I should like to say how pleased I was that my noble friend Lord Selkirk was able to say so much at a time which cannot have been too favourable. The noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, changed his focus several times. He opened his speech with a consideration of wide matters and then came to one or two points, important enough, but relatively minor compared with those with which he opened. Perhaps I may say a word or two on these minor points first.

I should hesitate only a short time before accepting the figures of the noble and gallant Member for Dudley, who is an expert in these matters, and whose figures I have studied before with great interest. The question of recruiting is bound to cause anxiety to everyone interested in the Regular Army and what it is doing. I think the noble Viscount will remember that in previous debates there were voices from this side of the House, not opposing the idea of recruiting our Forces on a Regular basis but asking that we should reserve judgment on the discontinuation of National Service until we saw how successful the efforts in Regular recruiting had been. I hope that, before my noble friend Lord Mancroft sits down, we may be able to hear from him about the measures taken to stimulate Regular recruiting. I agree that these are not going too well at the present time. Perhaps my noble friend may be able to tell us something on the credit side, while he is about it, on how the support costs in West Germany have been settled.

To my mind, the same applied to what the noble Viscount opposite said about the scarcity of landing craft and transport aircraft, though it does not apply to his general remarks on the Suez campaign in which I am not going to follow him. This is a point that has been made many times from these Benches. One of my noble friends who has ventilated it is the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye. He is not in the House at the present time, but he has spoken about it several times. That is something which will go on being a trouble so long as transport aircraft can be obtained only at the expense of weapons, fighter aircraft, bombs and so on, in the Air Estimates. We shall never get the position right so long as this conflict of interests goes on, and in Whitehall we must try to find some way of removing that conflict of interest.

May I go back to the main theme of the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, which was the general position of N.A.T.O. and Great Britain's position in it. I am sure that everybody was pleased, and not surprised, to hear his firm championship of N.A.T.O. I think that will show in pretty well every speech that we are likely to hear to-day. But the fact that we champion N.A.T.O. does not mean that we are not aware of a number of difficulties through which we are going at the present time.

I am not sure that some of our difficulties are not created by thinking too much of the political set-up of N.A.T.O. and not enough of the military set-up. A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since the time of which the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, spoke, when he was Minister of Defence, ten years ago. These powerful weapons have been invented, and are still being developed, and because of the increased range of these weapons and the weight of shell which they carry, in one way or another we are now being led into certain geographical considerations which did not exist even ten years ago; and still less, of course, when people were armed with muskets or with bows and arrows. The range and weight of shell have increased so much, indeed, as to traverse a great deal of our earlier conceptions of what we call sovereignty.

It is no good thinking that if we, or any other nation, for that matter, are in possession of these weapons of long range and great weight we shall not end up by using them. None of these restrictive covenants has stood the test of history in the past, and I doubt very much whether they will in the future. Nor do I think, whatever the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, may say (and I am anxious not to provoke him) that it was wrong for Field Marshal Lord Montgomery of Alamein to discuss that matter in his own way before a purely Service audience at the Royal United Service Institution.

VISCOUNT STANSGATE

I did not complain.

VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN

We are, indeed, faced with those factors, and our political consideration of N.A.T.O. defence must, I think, work within those limits, at least, unless and until there is some change in the political boundary between the free world and the N.A.T.O. countries and the Iron Curtain countries. If there were a change in the boundary, then we should have to reconsider our strategic ideas and the layout of nuclear weapons and their sites. But so long as there is no change in that boundary, we shall be largely governed by the range of weapons and the weight of shell; and not only by the weapons as they are, but by the weapons and the equipment as we conceive they will be in, say, two or three years' time. If we knew, as I think ray noble friend Lord Teynham hinted just now, that we were going to have submarines which would do away with expensive bases in difficult political situations, we should not spend a great deal of money and time in constructing such bases, particularly if they could not be completed in time to be equally useful to the submarine.

I have no idea whether that type of submarine is a possible conception, but I am trying to make the point that we must base our strategy on the weapons we are going to have; because those weapons are so expensive, as several noble Lords have said this afternoon, and because other things we want in this country are also expensive, that we cannot afford to waste any effort, whether it is financial effort, manufacturing effort, or effort of any other kind, in duplicating within the N.A.T.O. set-up. I do not think one can emphasise that aspect of the situation too strongly at the present time.

Yet this is not an easy matter, because whereas we want to avoid duplicating with the Americans, or anybody else, and we think it right that we should share between the two nations our scientific secrets and our manufacturing potential, it is at the same time important that, in our particular situation as the centre of the Empire, and with our Commonwealth associations, we should maintain a flexible defence organisation, able not only to play our proper part in a global war, if by chance it should come, but also to deal with the emergencies which since the end of the Second World War have plagued the British Commonwealth and Empire. We can do that only by keeping a flexible organisation. I am not going to use the words "conventional weapons" that were used by one noble Lord; I believe that term to be entirely misleading: it suggests that it is possible to draw a hard and fast line between one type of weapon and another. About thirty years ago, I think, an attempt was made to do that at one of the old Disarmament Conferences at Geneva: an attempt was made to distinguish between offensive and defensive tanks. Nothing was more futile and nothing had a more baleful influence on our preparation for the Second World War. So do let us think not of conventional or unconventional or nuclear weapons, but of keeping within our own British defence organisation a range of weapons suitable for every emergency we are likely to encounter or, at any rate, of having access to that range of weapons.

VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH

I am most interested in this argument, which the noble Viscount has put so clearly. What I am anxious to know is whether those of his professional experience really feel that, in having this range of weapons within the British organisation for all our British needs, we are going to use an atomic bomb of the weight of the Hiroshima bomb as a tactical weapon, as outlined by the Minister of Defence. Is it really contemplated that we shall use an atomic bomb up to the weight of the Hiroshima bomb as a tactical weapon?