FOOD SITUATION

§ EARL DE LA WARR

My Lords, I think all noble Lords who were present yesterday and who had the privilege of listening to the debate, as well as those who have read through Hansard this morning, will feel that I am speaking for them in saying that the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, is one of great importance, not only for this House but for the country as a whole. I cannot help feeling, however, that there is one point which perhaps disappointed us, if we did not find it more than disappointing and indeed most disturbing. I could not help feeling deeply disturbed at the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, because to me it represented a complacency about the whole situation which is really frightening for the future. He opened by deploring the alarmism of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, whereas I think most of your Lordships felt that Lord Woolton delivered a speech of really deep statesmanship.

The speech delivered by the noble Lord from the Government Bench is disturbing, particularly to those of us who have been trying to help not only the Government but the country by using what little influence we have in the countryside to persuade farmers to do even more than they have done. How can we go amongst the farmers, telling them that the position is desperate and asking for greater efforts from them, when we have from the Front Bench in either House of Parliament such, as I would venture to suggest, unjustifiably reassuring speeches as that which the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, delivered to us yesterday? Recently I had the experience of going to a large farmers' meeting on the day after Mr. Turner, the President of the National Farmers' Union, had delivered what many of us felt to be a most important and deeply moving appeal to the farmers of the country. It was, incidentally, the day after Mr. John Strachey, the Minister of Food, arrived back from his Canadian tour. The response I received from the farmers was a very clear one. They said, "Why 463 should we put ourselves out to produce this extra food when"—and they brandished a paper in front of me— "the Minister of Food says that all is well?"

What was it that the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, really had to promise? So far as I could see, all he really promised was that there was not likely to be any serious deterioration. He said, in effect, "Things will not be better but they are not going to be very much worse." I hope I am not being unfair to the noble Lord in so paraphrasing what he says, but he said there is no great danger except with regard to our supply of meat and fats. He might have gone on to say that these are the two most important food deficiencies from which we are suffering to-day. This so-called reassuring message was based on the assumption of a continuance of good harvests in North America. What right have we to take such a gamble as that? In case I am being unfair to the noble Lord, I have here a description of his speech in the Press, and in order to be quite sure, I naturally selected the only paper that tells the truth—the Daily Herald. They have headlined his speech "Food Crisis Talk Nailed." How are we to bring the people of this country to a realization of the gravity of the position when that is the lead that is given?

The noble Lord went on to say that, in his view, we need not be worried about a deterioration in the stocks of food because it is no longer necessary to have high stocks. It is perfectly true that he added: "at the same high level as the war period." I think probably we would all agree that it would be unnecessary to keep our food stocks at the level of the war period, though I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, would say. But are there not other risks against which we have to provide? Are there not strikes, not only in this country but in other countries? Have there not been strikes at the docks and in the transport industry in the great exporting countries? Are there not general transport difficulties and shortages? I mentioned that the noble Lord's assumptions of optimism about the grain position were largely dependent upon continued good harvests in the North Americas. Does he not realize that we have had a run of four or five good harvests in the North American sphere, and that on the law of averages we cannot possibly hope for, or gamble 464 on, a continuance of that situation? And what about the weather here? Have we not learned anything from the last six months in this country—the winter losses and the spring losses? Have we not to provide stocks against, if not a total, at least a partial recurrence of such happenings?

Finally, there is one other factor which nobody has yet mentioned. From all the reports I have received from the Continent, the losses of winter corn were a great deal more serious than in this country because they had less snow. We at least had the protection of snow sitting on our crops. The first figure I was given of the losses in France was between 70 and 8o per cent. One can only hope that this was exaggerated—one knows that these loss figures are very often exaggerated in the first instance. However, the losses were certainly high. I would impress upon noble Lords the importance of stocks at the present moment, when virtually we are buying whatever we buy in a blackmail market. It is important to have high stocks, in order to be able to use them as a bargaining counter. There was one other omission in the speech of the noble Lord that struck many of us as curious, but possibly this was because he hoped some other noble Lord, perhaps the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, would deal with the point. It seems extraordinary to think that anyone can make a speech about the food situation to-day without mentioning the word "dollar." I read his speech very carefully this morning to try and find the word somewhere. The noble Lord, Lord De L'Isle and Dudley, referred to the speech of Sir Stafford Cripps during the week end. He quoted Sir Stafford Cripps as having mentioned the figure of £200,000,000 losses due to the fuel shortage. Does that not bear upon the food situation or is it that Sir Stafford Cripps and Mr. John Strachey are not even on speaking terms? We hope the troubles in His Majesty's Government have not developed so far as that, but certainly the speeches of Sir Stafford Cripps do not affect the briefs handed out by Mr. Strachey because there was no reference to dollars.

The noble Lords opposite devoted much of their speeches to a justification of bulk purchase. I do not want to touch upon that point because it seems to me that the most important subject before us today is not the method we shall employ 465 in purchasing our food, but rather the question of whether, when our dollar loans run out, we shall be able to pay for our imports, whether we purchase them by one method or another. I would like to devote the few remarks I am going to make to that specific point, and try to persuade His Majesty's Government that we must produce more food from our own soil; that we can produce more food from our own soil; and, finally, to say that His Majesty's Government may rely on all the help that it is possible to give front a united agricultural industry, if only they will take steps sufficiently drastic for dealing with the situation, and if they will give us the tools for the job. It has to be realized that desperate situations need desperate remedies, and, although I hesitate to say this to so notable a band of planners, they need a plan.

One of the noble Lords on the other side of the House (I think the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd) said that we on this side of the House must make up our minds whether or not we wanted the total withdrawal of the State from these economic affairs. The reply is quite simple. We want better planning and less interference. There is nothing mystic about planning; it is what we must all have in our daily affairs. It is merely looking ahead and seeing problems before they overwhelm us. The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, made a point (quite an amusing one, which we all enjoyed) about the activities during the war of the noble Lord, Lord Woolton. All that the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, did was to show that he had a perfectly open and flexible mind and was prepared to apply whatever remedy he considered most suitable at a particular time. Undoubtedly, in the conditions of the war, we all of us owed a great debt to the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, for the methods which he applied, and which were the most suitable. That does not mean to say that they are the most suitable methods for peace-time. Incidentally, he showed that he was competent to operate any machinery of purchase, and I do not think many noble Lords—even on the other side of the House—would contend that all Ministers are able to do that.

What is the position? Let us look at the Economic Survey for 1947, which we discussed at some length recently in your 466 Lordships' House. What came out of that debate? I am afraid that the points which emerged were only too clear; that we are facing a deficit on our balance of trade of something just under £400,000,000 a year (between £350,000,000 and £400,000,000), and that we are proposing next year to expend £725,000,000 on imports of food, mostly from dollar countries. Those figures were given us before we knew the appalling losses—as yet really inadequately estimated—of this winter. Therefore, that £725,000,000 is likely to be a minimum figure, rather than a maximum. In addition, in our overseas indebtedness we owe amounts up to £3,000,000,000 a problem which we are glad to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now beginning to tackle, but as yet more in the realm of pious hope than anything else.

There is another factor which is fundamental to the consideration of this problem but which is not, I think, sufficiently realized. It is that this tendency to import more than we export is not entirely a new tendency, confined to this period of crisis. It is a tendency which was started before the war. In those days we were already what I think is called "in the rain" on our balance of payments by about £60,000,000. Before the war those great raw material producing countries were increasing their own secondary industries, a tendency which we know has been multiplied five or ten fold as a result of the war. Not only in the realm of secondary industries but in the realm of agriculture there has been a change. These great exporting countries learned during the war that it not only pays them better economically but makes for better farming, and for bet ter fertility of their soil, to use their own animals and process foodstuffs which in toe past they used to send to us extremely cheaply and which we used to process. Those countries are not likely to abandon this.

Finally, there is another factor which is quite different from what it was before the war. We built op our economy in the last few generations on cheap food. Who to-day is prepared to contend that food from overseas is cheaper than we are producing it? is it a fact (I have asked the noble Lord: I have never been able to get the exact figures from him, but he can correct rue if I am wrong) that wheat from Canada is costing as much as we are paying to our own 467 farmers to-day in this country; that wheat from America is costing us more, and that wheat from the Argentine (in so far as it is obtainable at all) is also costing a great deal more? I think I am right in saying that he told us the other day that we had been able to make only one purchase of linseed oil from India at £53 a ton, whereas, as a great concession during the last month or so, and making it very clear that it is only for one year, we are to pay our own farmers £45 a ton. It seems to me that these are the real facts that we have to face in a debate of this kind.

I know how big and appalling the winter losses have been, but it seems to me that there is considerable danger in exaggerating them, in the sense that we may allow the gravity of those losses to obscure the real problem that is before us. These losses have done nothing more than to advance the crisis, it may be by four, six or twelve months—that is a matter of guess-work. There is a danger of obscuring the true nature of the problem which I thought the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, put so extraordinarily clearly yesterday, and with which the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, also dealt—that the whole basis of our old prosperity built up during the last few generations has now been undermined by the factors which I have ventured to mention. And the danger of not admitting that is surely, that so long as we hang on to the fantasy that we can rebuild our prosperity on the old basis, so long does it mean that we cannot concentrate our attention on rebuilding our prosperity on a new basis. For instance (again I use the word fantasy) it is a complete fantasy to think we can ever attain to 175 per cent. of our pre-war exports. That is dangerous, because it is allowing us to think we can continue to live on our food production as it is and not determine to increase it to a far greater extent.

I venture to stress the long-term side of the problem in this debate on the Motion which the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, has moved, and which is really a crisis Motion, because it seems to me that we are not going to deal with this emergency or crisis unless we recognize that we are not faced with something that is temporary, but with a long-term change in our economic life. We therefore have this paradox before us: that we cannot 468 deal with the crisis because we are tending too much to think of it in terms of a crisis instead of as a long-term change. I need not say in this House that agriculture is not an emergency industry. It is not an industry which you can pick up and develop when you are afraid of the food situation, and then drop again as soon as there is promise of easier markets. The steps that are needed to get an immediate increase—nobody is more aware of this than the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, who has done such wonderful work for agriculture and has continually made this point himself—and the steps that are needed to help agriculture to deal with the crisis, are in fact long-term steps. Surely all this drives us to one point, and one point only—that we must produce more food here at home. Once we have reached that point, we shall begin to realize that the increase can be very great.

It is obvious that we are all agreed on the general thesis. Where I do not think we agree—unless, that is, the noble Lord, Lord Huntingdon, has seriously changed his views lately—is on the size of the increase. But surely that is the point that matters. We have heard so much of the White Paper that was published the other day that I almost hesitate to mention it again, but it is absolutely fundamental to the whole problem. It was during the course of a speech in which the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, was attempting to prove as impossible the increased production of the size that the noble Lord Lord Teviot, and I were pressing on your Lordships, that he inadvertently referred to this document.

§ VISCOUNT ADDISON

Not at all.

§ EARL DE LA WARR

Well, quite deliberately. At any rate, I could not help noticing that the noble Viscount was not very familiar with that document because, as he generously admitted to the House afterwards, he had misquoted. What does that mean? It means that there has been in the pigeon-holes of the Government, ever since, I think, the spring of 1945, a document worked out by two of the great Departments of State responsible for food production and food distribution, which not only informed them that something like £150,000,000 worth of extra food per annum could be produced, but worked out in detail how that should be done. Yet the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, 469 was obviously unaware of the date of that document. In terms of our total trade, £150,000,000 is one-third, or more than one-third; and that production could be accomplished by one industry. I should have thought that all the members of the Cabinet would know such a document by heart if they were taking the present position really seriously.

That document, we have to admit, is two years old, and it would be fair for any of your Lordships to ask me whether it is sufficiently up to date to be applicable to the present situation. Only one change has taken place, and that is that production has gone down very considerably since the document was produced. Therefore, we are starting from a very much lower level, and it should be possible for the increase from the present level of production to be very much greater than £150,000,000. It is barely a month since there was held what was probably one of the most important conferences ever held in the agricultural world. It was called by the Royal Agricultural Society of England, and there were representatives of every section of agriculture; no fewer than seventeen of the leading agricultural bodies were represented, and there were representatives from Scotland, Wales and Ulster, and of all classes and all sections. They issued a Report (no doubt the noble Viscount has a copy of that Report; it has been laid before the Minister of Agriculture) which laid it down that, in their view, increased production of the extent that I am discussing—namely £150,000,000, which was £50,000,000 more than the noble Viscount, Lord Addison, in our debate on February 19 said was possible—was, in their view, possible.

§ VISCOUNT ADDISON

I said nothing of the kind. All I said was that it could not be done in the time the noble Earl talked about.

§ EARL DE LA WARR

I do not think the noble Viscount can point anywhere to the fact that I said it could be done in a year. I certainly did not say that. Every speech I have made on this project in your Lordship' House has emphasized the time it will take to do these things, and therefore, the necessity of getting on with it quickly. The fact remains that the noble Viscount would accept that Motion only if we took out the figure of £100,000,000, and it has now become 470 quite clear that the figure could in fact have been £150,000,000. Looking back to the debate that we had on this subject on December 11 of last year (Hansard, Column 808), I find that the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, then said: The truth, however, is that there is no possibility of a further large expansion unless we extend agriculture an to unsuitable land or make calls on materials and labour (which are very scarce) and on fertilizers and machinery which would be out of all proportion to the expected benefits … How are we to gain increased production from an industry, when that is the leadership that is being given to us?

I think I can guess what noble Lords on the other side of the House will say. They will probably say that the Opposition are always criticizing, and ask why we do not make concrete proposals. So sure am I that they will adopt that attitude, that I am going to take the risk of repeating to your Lordships—I apologize, because it has been done in debates three or four times already—what in fact are our practical proposals: We did it in March, 1946, we did it again in June and December of that year, and also on February 19 of this year. We then made the proposal that there should be definite production targets given to the agriculture industry, as was done by Mr. Hudson during the war. I do not believe these agricultural executive committees will be in a position to carry out their task—and it is a very difficult task—unless they are given some definite guidance as to what is wanted. There must be a larger tillage area. We have lost 1,250,000 acres since the war, and a very large proportion of that, at any rate, has to be made up. I know that many of your Lordships think the land is already overcrowded, and that we ought to concentrate more on livestock. But how many of us are prepared to go to the small farmers and tell them to build up their pigs and poultry again, as they have been told before, without some guarantee that we shall be able to maintain the supply of feeding stuffs? I suggest that the only way we can guarantee an increase in feeding stuffs is to grow more ourselves.

The only difference between the tillage policy that I would recommend and that which we had during the war is that we should concentrate a great deal more on the growing of feeding stuffs and less on the growing of wheat. There should be 471 a great campaign for grassland improvement. I believe there is hardly a field of grass in the country, with the exception of certain lands—the noble Lord, Lord Hazlerigg, is a representative of one of them—that could not be virtually doubled in production, if not by actual ploughing and reseeding, then at least by cultivation and manures. I think the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, put forward a suggestion that the slaughter of calves, not only of the beef breed but of the dual purpose breeds, should be discouraged. He went further, I think, and said "prohibited." I do not know whether I would go the whole way on that, because one has not had time to think it out. But certainly it should be discouraged and, after these terrible losses from the winter, the same policy should be applied to all ewe lambs.

Of course, there is also the increased production of pigs and poultry which is the big exchange saver. After all, to-day it is a platitude to say we are thinking in terms of saving exchange rather than shipping. I apologize again for repetition, but I think it is better to be quite clear as to what we propose, and to say that we have concrete proposals. It has been said again and again in your Lordships' House that the very essence of this problem is the problem of labour. The noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, was good enough to refer to the fact that I had already given quite detailed figures of what seemed to me to be the requirements of labour, and that we need something like a minimum of 100,000 to replace the German prisoners of war. That leaves us with nothing with which to increase production, and therefore we need a minimum of another 100,000 to increase production. And we must have houses for them. If the towns want to be fed, then they must allow the countryside to have priority on housing. I am not going back to the problem of reconditioning—we have already spoken about it so much—but we must definitely have not only new houses but reconditioned houses. Many of them, by virtue of reconditioning, could be put in such a state that they could take another man and, therefore, in fact be worth another house. We also need machinery, but this again is repetition, so I will not stress the point.

472 Finally—and I think the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, will be familiar with this—a question has arisen lately in regard to fertilizers. I tell him quite definitely that crops this harvest are going to be considerably smaller than they should be owing to the shortage of fertilizers. After my having said this, I hope noble Lords opposite will not complain that we have not any concrete proposals. I have dealt with these points quickly because this is not a technical debate, and because we have dealt with them before. But surely what really matters at the moment is not the technical details; what matters is that we should get into the minds of His Majesty's Ministers—although I know they will get up and say they agree with so much of this and will try to laugh it off—that in the soil of this country to-day lies a minimum of £150,000,000 per annum of food and dollars that we desperately need, and that the agricultural industry is asking to be allowed to help to put that immense sum of wealth at the disposal of the country. If the Government refuse this advice and this offer, then henceforth it must be quite clear, when the storm bursts, where the responsibility lies. The Government were warned throughout this last year by your Lordships' House and by another place, and the country should know that the land owners, the farmers, and the workers, as a united industry, are convinced that more could be done and are prepared to do it if we give them the tools.

I hope noble Lords opposite will appreciate that although some of us feel very strongly on the subject, because the life of the country is at stake, this Motion is not put down designedly as a political vote of censure. It is put down as a warning and as an offer, and I am prepared to make a prophecy that at the end of this debate the noble Viscount, Lord Addison (and we are all extremely fond of the noble Viscount) will get up and make a charming speech. He will make us all laugh a bit, and he will have a few "digs" at us for having dared to criticize the Government, and therefore having been so Party-minded. He will tell us we are only pushing at an open door, and that this is what he wants and has wanted for years.

§ VISCOUNT ADDISON

That is perfectly true.

§ EARL DE LA WARR

I know it is true, but in a very departmentalized Government the noble Viscount is not Minister of Food or Minister of Agriculture.

§ A NOBLE LORD

Or Minister of Health!

§ EARL DE LA WARR

And in fact such is the position of the country that we have got past the stage where speeches matter very much. We have to judge by results. We could not have a Minister of Agriculture more friendly to the industry than we have to-day, but we are not getting the labour; we are not getting the houses; we are not getting the machinery and we are not getting the fertilizers. And that is how we have to judge it to-day. We are up against facts, not speeches. I implore the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, who feels so deeply about agriculture, not merely to make a reassuring speech to-day, but to use his influence in the Government to see that the agricultural industry is put into a state and given the tools that will enable it to grow the food which the country is going to need so desperately.

§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON)

My Lords, I do not wish to talk about bulk purchasing or the Canadian wheat agreement, fascinating though those subjects may be. I wish to deal with only one aspect of this debate, and that is food production in this country. In an extremely powerful and eloquent speech, the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, suggested that His Majesty's Government should be very frank and tell this House and the people of this country what the position is, and not try to cover up the facts. I am going to take the noble Lord's advice to deal with the question frankly, and tell your Lordships that in these last few months the agricultural industry has suffered a major disaster. It is no good hiding that fact, and it is no good ignoring the effect that it will have on the diet of our people. Nearly 700,00o acres of land were flooded. The winds blew, the rain and snows came, waterways and dykes were burst, and as a result all those acres of some of our best agricultural land were inundated. So far as we can tell at this stage, 71,000 acres will not be croppable this year.

474 Owing to the bad conditions, a very large part of the country has been so waterlogged as to cause great difficulty in regard to cultivation, and in fact, allowing for losses and the replacement of winter corn by spring corn, the likely acreage for wheat this year is about 1,940,000 acres, compared with our target of 2,500,000 acres. That is a very serious reduction indeed. Our acreage in sugar beet is likely to fall by 25,000 acres, and 75,000 tons of last year's crops of potatoes Were utterly destroyed. Actually, potatoes may be planted up to the end of this month, but we must expect some reduction in this year's supplies. As to vegetable losses, we have not exact figures, but there will be large losses this spring and until July many things are likely to be in very short supply.

When the Government realized the extent of the disaster which had befallen us they treated the whole matter as a war operation. Officials from the Ministry of Agriculture were sent immediately to survey the extent of the disaster; and battle headquarters were set up. Help was given by all the Services, including the R.A.F., engineers, sappers, and the National Fire Service; everybody that we could think of was brought in to help in this disaster. I should like to take the opportunity of paying a tribute to the people who did such magnificent work —both local authorities and the Services—and to the help of the officials of the Ministry of Agriculture, who laboured in extremely difficult conditions to try and stop the floods front spreading. We were faced with an extremely difficult problem. In some cases we sank tanks and other vehicles in the dykes; we obtained the loan from the Dutch Government of emergency cranes and pumps; we mobilized pumps from the Admiralty and the Metropolitan Water Board. All the personnel whom we could get gave valuable help, and as a result many acres were saved. But the damage to farm buildings, to land, and to implements, has been very considerable.

That is only one aspect. Apart from our flooded areas—and that was a serious enough matter—there is the question of the flocks and herds up in the hill farms. These wretched farmers were cut off by the blizzards, in some cases completely. They had the greatest difficulty in finding means of feeding their animals. Even 475 before the emergency we had taken steps to get feeding stuffs to them. But no one could anticipate the magnitude of the disaster which followed. In extreme cases we mobilized the R.A.F., and the pilots flew out in very difficult weather conditions. I think seventy-seven sorties were flown, and as a result food was brought to many outlying farms which otherwise would have been in extreme difficulties. The county war agricultural committees also did a very fine job of work, mobilizing feeding stuffs for all quarters. We gave priority in transport to this matter. One thing which has had great success has been the mobilizing of teams of tractors, working sometimes eight or more together, so that whenever an area of land became workable these teams went on it and started the work of cultivation.

As regard horticulturists and various other people who also suffered, special arrangements were made in conjunction with the manufacturers and the National Farmers' Union for the diversion of horticultural glass and timber to areas where supplies were most needed. Over 2,000,000 square feet of glass have been diverted under these arrangements. We also stopped the export of necessary tractors and machinery for the time being. In spite of all our efforts, however, and particularly in regard to the hill areas, I am sorry to say that the total loss of cattle is over 50,000 head, whilst over 4,000,000 sheep and lambs were lost. I do not need to impress on your Lordships how serious this will be for the Bill famers. These were foundation stocks; this was an industry which had been depressed for many years, and your Lordships will remember that a Bill was recently passed to help this industry to rehabilitate itself.

The question next before us was what we could do on the longer-term basis to help these people. I do not want to go into all the details, but I would remind your Lordships that we are helping very considerably with subsidies. For instance, we have given a subsidy and are allowing the hill and sheep farmers to claim an advance on their subsidy up to a limit of s. per ewe this year, and 75. 6d. per ewe next year—part of the subsidy that will be paid in 1948 and 1949 respectively. This will help those farmers who, owing to heavy losses, will have few lambs or draft ewes to sell and, therefore, a much-reduced income. As a means of giving 476 confidence to farmers to rebuild their flocks we have also guaranteed that in 1948 and 1949 the subsidy will not fall below a minimum of l0s. per ewe, which compares with the present subsidy of 8s. 9d. per ewe.

In addition there is the Lord Mayor's Fund, to which the Government have contributed £1,000,000, and the Agricultural Disaster Fund, to which the Government are giving approximately pound for pound for what is subscribed. We are giving special acreage payments in respect of land which has been abnormally flooded. This varies between £3 and £15 per acre, according to the crops grown. The principal food crops—potatoes, sugar beet, barley and horticultural crops for human consumption—are all included in this scheme, and we hope that with this backing many farmers will be encouraged to maintain the fullest possible cultivation.

Special prices for spring sown crops and milk have also been authorized, because, owing to the abnormally severe winter, heavy arrears of spring work have to be concentrated into a very short period. The Government have decided, therefore, to make these special additions to the prices of barley, oats, potatoes, sugar beet, linseed and milk, and we believe that this assistance will encourage the effort to give us the largest area that can possibly be sown in the present conditions. We are introducing in another place a Bill that will shortly come to your Lordships' House and which, I trust, will have a speedy passage, to enable these payments to be made. In addition to that, we are allowing 20 per cent. of millable wheat and barley to remain with the farmers for the feeding of their stocks.

§ EARL DE LA WARR

This year?

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

No; next year. I wish we could do it this year, but the cereal position is such that we cannot. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, warned us, if I remember rightly, of the dangers overhanging us and of an impending food crisis. The noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, reinforced this argument in a very powerful speech today, in which he dealt with the dangers which he suggested were bound to come if we were not very careful. I do not think I am misquoting the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, when I mention that he said also that the British housewife was not so much interested in what 477 was happening in foreign countries as in the question of whether she was getting, and would be able to get, her necessary supplies.

§ LORD WOOLTON

That was the sentiment that I expressed.

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

I think that in this the noble Lord rather misjudged the temper of the people of this country. I think one of the most encouraging signs which we see to-day is that the housewife of this country does recognize how we are dependent on foreign countries. She, and the people generally, I believe, recognize the situation not only in Europe but in the Americas also, and they appreciate that this country is not an isolated plot but one part of an integral whole. But whether the housewife is interested or not, this Government certainly must be. We cannot, for one moment, divorce ourselves from the situation outside our shores. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, also put forward various arguments to show that it would have been better to buy feeding stuffs rather than to import dried eggs and various other commodities. Of course, we heartily agree—nothing could be more true. But the great difficulty is, and always has been, to get hold of the feeding stuffs. That has been the limiting factor and the regulator of the whole business.

§ LORD WOOLTON

Could you not have got maize for this country? The facts are known.

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

Actually we could not. I can state this fact: that the Government have never hesitated to pay any price if it was possible to get maize.

§ LORD WOOLTON

The South Africans could get it, could they not?

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

That I do not know, but certainly we did our utmost to get maize and we were unable to do so.

§ EARL DE LA WARR

The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, said yesterday, quite clearly, that we were to get very largely increased supplies of shell eggs from the Continent. Can the noble Earl tell us where the people on the Continent get their feeding stuffs?

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

No, I cannot.

§ EARL DE LA WARR

Surely the noble Earl realizes that this is a very relevant fact?

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

I am not an authority as to how people on the Continent feed their chickens. We have been using every endeavour to get hold of feeding stuffs for our livestock including poultry, but until very recently we have found it almost impossible to do so. That is a matter which it is easy to gloss over, but it has been one of our great difficulties. To proceed on those assumptions, there is also the point to be taken into consideration that are still bound to a certain extent by international agreements on this subject. Unless we are to break up the whole system of international co-operation we must pay some attention to these agreements. We are but one among many peoples who earnestly want to procure food for human beings and feeding stuffs for livestock. Another point I wish to make touches upon the need which was so strongly stressed by the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, for fertilizers. I am glad to be able to announce that the supply position with regard to potash is very encouraging. For some months potash has been in short supply, but the rate of imports has lately been increased, and during April they were the highest, with one exception, for any month since 1944.

§ EARL DE LA WARR:

What about nitrates?

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

I am afraid I do not know the position with regard to nitrates. With respect to potash, however, the position and prospects are so much better that further arrivals of potash are to be directed for use in compounds or as a straight fertilizer, according to demand. I think that will be good news for the farmers. Another matter to which the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, has drawn our attention is Command Paper 7072, which deals with certain assumptions and forecasts with regard to agricultural production which were made by the late Minister of Agriculture. The noble Earl rather suggested that we were not very familiar with the contents of this Paper. I am wondering if the noble Earl himself is very familiar with it. If he 479 reads it carefully he will find that these calculations, which were based entirely on suppositions, were very strongly qualified by Paragraph 8, which emphasized that certain conditions must exist. For example, it was laid down that there should be no undue shortage of labour. I only wish we could say that there is no such shortage.

§ EARL DE LA WARR

There would not be the shortage if the necessary houses were there.

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

I wish we could say that there was no undue shortage of houses. We have to recognize, as I hope the noble Earl himself recognizes, that this is a heritage of the past, a heritage of the period between the wars and a legacy of the war period itself, when we could not get the necessary labour and material for housing. Could the supposition referred to be fulfilled, it is true that the position might be different; but without the fulfilment of this, and especially having regard to the terrible shortage of cereals that has existed in the last few years and the consequent shortage of feeding stuffs, our difficulties have been extreme. In this connexion there is one thing which I should like to make clear, in case there is any mistake about it. Although the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, rather suggested that we would laugh this off and agree with him, in practice, the truth is that we are all out for maximum production. There is no difference at all between us there, so far as I can see. If difference there be, it arises over this important matter—that if, is our policy to switch over to livestock production.

It has been said once or twice—I think the noble Lord, Lord De L'Isle and Dudley, mentioned it and it is extremely important—that we must save foreign exchange, particularly "hard currency"—dollars. We have not emphasized this so much because we have assumed that everybody knew it. The dollar is really the key to the situation. That is why we are trying to produce meat, eggs, bacon, vegetables and other products which we have to buy from America and other hard currency countries. It is vital to our exchange position that we should do this, and it will become even more important in the future. Noble Lords must realize that we are in a transitional period, and 480 if they see a fall in wheat acreage in this country (I am not now referring to the recent crisis) it is because we are switching over and are trying, under great difficulties with regard to shortages of feeding-stuffs and other things, to carry out the policy of building up our herds and our livestock generally. We believe that that is vital to this country. At the same time, while doing that, we want maximum production from the land, and anything that noble Lords can do to encourage the farmers to increase all their produce to the maximum extent, will obviously be of great value from the point of view of His Majesty's Government.

§ VISCOUNT MAUGHAM

May I interrupt the noble Earl to ask whether His Majesty's Government are prepared to encourage the building by private enterprise of the cottages, which are so badly needed for farm labourers in this country?

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

If I may be allowed to do so I would rather come to that later. At the moment I would like to proceed with what I was saying about our livestock policy. We have been asked very persistently what we are doing in regard to the promotion of maximum production; in other words, what are the Government doing for the agricultural industry? I think the answer is, first, that they are promoting the Agriculture Bill, which is being discussed in another place and which we hope will soon come before your Lordships. A wise person has remarked that the Bill will not produce one bushel of wheat, and that of course, is absolutely true. No Bill produces any wheat; those who produce the bushel are the farmer and the farm worker, with their skill and industry. What we can do by means of this Bill is to give the industry confidence and to provide conditions in which the farmer knows that if he does his work and produces his wheat he will receive a fair return for his money and labour.

I think it is true to say that the one thing for which primary producers all over the world have prayed all their lives is some form of stability which will ensure that when, in spite of all adverse circumstances—the weather and the various things that may happen to them—they finally produce their crops, they will not be at the mercy of world exchanges and 481 of international finance which may render all their labours useless by bringing about an undue fall in prices. It is that which we are seeking to stop by means of this Bill. We are guaranteeing them markets, and we are guaranteeing them stable prices. We have set out a system by which the prices are discussed every year, so that the farmer knows before he plants his crops what he will get for them, and when he is breeding his herds he knows the minimum prices he will get for his stock in future years. I suggest that that, as the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, said, is the greatest charter for agriculture which has ever been produced, by any Government, for any farming community in the world. I should say, incidentally, that the energy with which this Government have tackled this crisis and the generosity with which they have recognized the farmers' needs should be an earnest of what they wish to do and of what they will do in the future.

I want to go on being frank with your Lordships. I recognize that there is one fundamental difficulty. It is a very serious one, and one which cannot be glossed over. It is the difficulty of obtaining labour. Many noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, amongst others—have referred to this difficulty and have asked what is going to happen. His Majesty's Government are not worried so much about this harvest. That is not the problem; the problem is what will happen when the German prisoners go back. I doubt whether any noble Lord will seriously suggest that we could go on keeping these prisoners in this country indefinitely, as a sort of slave labour force. If that is agreed, then the problem of what we are going to do to get labour remains. Various steps have been taken for this harvest. We are keeping on the Women's Land Army, who have done a magnificent job of work in helping the industry. We have volunteer agricultural camps and school harvest camps, and the Services have helped considerably. We hope to tide ourselves over the gap to a certain extent by using Poles and displaced persons. The Government scheme for recruiting displaced persons for work in the essential undermanned industries has already been announced and the movement of such workers to this country started at the end of last month. The Ministry of Labour officers who are engaged in the selection of such workers in 482 the British Zones of Germany and Austria are looking out for those suitable for heavy and medium work in agriculture, and discussions with the industry upon the absorption of such workers into agriculture are proceeding. The use of Poles and displaced persons will serve as a stop-gap, but there is no doubt that the ultimate solution of the problem is to get British labour back on to the land.

In that regard it is encouraging to notice—and this is a point which is sometimes ignored by the members of the Opposition—that the number of regular British workers in agriculture is actually higher now than in 1939. In fact the figure is the highest for over ten years. That means that, to a certain extent, they are going back to the land, but if we are to get them in the numbers we want we must undoubtedly provide amenities, and we must provide good wages, which I think the present system will secure. But, as the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Maugham, suggested, the key to it all is housing; we must have houses. I am not going to deal with that subject because it will be dealt with very fully by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House when he winds up tins debate. I will not anticipate his remarks, but I mention the matter to show that my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture realizes intensely the fundamental importance of the problem of housing, which is indeed the key to the whole labour situation.

§ VISCOUNT SWINTON

Our appetites have been whetted and we shall all look forward to this feast. Could the noble Earl assure us that when the time comes—and we will not press the matter until then—there will be a definite Government pronouncement on the Hobhouse Report?

§ VISCOUNT ADDISON

No.

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

I am afraid I cannot say that.

§ LORD BEVERIDGE

Before the noble Earl passes from the question of labour, may I point out that I put some definite questions on that yesterday. Does the noble Earl propose to answer them, or will that be done by the Leader of the House?

§ THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON

I did not answer those questions because the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, is to answer them personally. I am afraid I 483 have taken up rather a lot of your Lordships' time, but I feel that I may have been justified in doing so if I have at all managed to persuade your Lordships that the Government's attitude towards agriculture is not a complacent one and that we do realize the vital importance of food production in this country. We may have to put one thing down and to bring another up, but fundamentally we want to encourage the farmer to produce the maximum amount that he can possibly produce. If I have said anything to convince him of that need, and to persuade him that this Government will not let him down but that they are behind him in all his efforts, and are anxious to help him, in spite of very great difficulties, then I think my words will not have been unjustified.

§ THE EARL OF GAINSBOROUGH

My Lords, I do not wish to intervene for long in this debate (which is, if I may say so, a timely and valuable one) because there are many other noble Lords who wish to speak. I would like to associate myself with the very good company of noble Lords who think that more food could be grown and produced in this country, because I feel strongly that that is the case. To do that, we must have labour. I am not going to say very much on that because a great deal has already been said about it by noble Lords whose knowledge of it is greater than mine. We must, in particular, have stockmen, and the stockman is a skilled man. Looking into the future, we must have British skilled labour for that job. Stockmen must live with their stock, or very near to it, and I would like to ask, if it is not out of place to do so on a Motion of this kind, if more consideration could be given to that fact, and whether His Majesty's Government could reconsider their decision to restrict the ratio of public authority and private enterprise building to 4 to 1, even in rural areas where cottages could be built. I know of two farmers in my own county who wanted to build two cottages and who were told that no more licences could be granted to private enterprise this year. They wanted to build two cottages for stockmen, because they run very large herds of Shorthorn cattle, a dual purpose breed which is very important at this moment. I need not say very much 484 about the Hobhouse Report because the attitude of His Majesty's Government is fairly clear—they do not intend to do anything about it at the moment, but next year they may be prepared to introduce legislation. We can only look forward eagerly and hopefully to that new legislation.

From my limited experience I can say that lately the farmworker, the small farmer and, indeed, the large farmer, have been working hard for very long hours, and they are not crying out for more food as are some other workers, however justified people may be in asking for more at the present time. But the people on the land are working long hours, and if there is any more food to be distributed among workers in this country I think they might be considered. On that score I would refer to a debate in another place, when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Food made the somewhat surprising statement that the Government would like to see farmers set up canteens. That might be an admirable thing, but I suggest that farmers have much more to do than to set up canteens. If there is any food [...] spare, and I take it there must be if canteens can be set up, could that food be distributed to these people?

We have heard many speeches, and no doubt we shall be privileged to hear many more, from people who are experts, and it is clear that the utmost urgency should be attached to this question. In company with other noble Lords, I venture to think that it is not being so treated at the moment. May I instance the case of certain spare parts during this recent trouble? I know of three American "crawler" tractors which are idle for lack of spare parts which, I am informed, it is not possible to obtain. Perhaps the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, could look into this matter, because I am sure that something could be done to obtain these spare parts for "crawler" tractors, which can do so much more work than the ordinary tractor obtainable in this country to-day.

§ VISCOUNT LAMBERT

My Lords, this is the first occasion on which I have had the honour of addressing your Lordships' House, but I hope you will excuse me if I do not follow the advice given to maiden speakers in another place, 485 which is to say nothing, but to say it nicely. The noble Lord who introduced this Motion has rendered one mole service to the country. When he was appointed Minister of Food I thought he would be greatly criticized, but, in reality, his foresight and his persuasive ability on the radio brought him to the hearts of all women. The situation to-day seems to me to be a really acute and a dangerous one. For years in another place I advocated the claims of agriculture for more stability and better prices. But the lessons of the 1914 war ware forgotten, and there was never a greater period of agricultural depression than in 1930. Here I will say, having seen the whole situation, that one of the best Ministers of Agriculture we ever had, struggling against adversity, was Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith. Every time he tried to raise prices he was met by opposition, but fortunately he succeeded. Then the war came, and everything was changed.

The value of food is calculated in calories and vitamins. I know the situation in my own county, where I meet the agricultural workers. They are underfed, and other manual workers are also underfed. They have colds and chills because they have not a sufficiently varied diet. One labourer, a first-rate fellow, spoke to me last autumn. He was very interested in a phrase that had been used in another place about "a song in my heart." He asked me about and I said, "Yes, Jim, It was Mr. Dalton." His reply was caustic, crude, and pointed: "You go up and tell that Mr. Dalton that if he has got a song in his heart I have got a rumble in my belly. He has got the music and I have got the wind."

The Government are not putting first things first. I speak as a farmer, and what we want to-day is labour, fertilizers, feeding stuffs, materials and machinery. The Minister of Agriculture, one of the best fellows living, has given us the Agriculture Bill. An Agriculture Bill may be all very well in a few years' time, but to-day we want action for production. If Acts of Parliament, forms and coupons were food, we should be the best fed country in Europe. So far as I can see it—and I have no Government information but I have observed these things for many years—the position is gradually getting worse. There is no doubt about it. Ask any housewife and she will tell you that 486 things are getting worse and it is much more difficult to get essential foodstuffs.

I observed that the Minister of Food said last Saturday (it was reported in Monday's edition of The Times) that he did not think we were in any danger of a food crisis such as had arisen with fuel. I certainly hope not We can shiver for Shinwell, but we could not starve under Strachey! We have to consider that we are living on charity—the charity of the Americans and Canadians. I do not blame the Government. They have a very difficult task. I thought, since the General Election, that it was necessary for us to have a Labour Government; and had there been any other Government in power the country would be in twice as great confusion as it is now.

I addressed some meetings at the General Election. There was one thing stressed above all others—Russia. Russia was the paradise; Stalin was the Saviour. Mr Bevin—all honour to him—is doing his job extraordinarily well, and we take a little credit for that in Devonshire, because his only education was at a village school about seven miles from where I was born. It shows what grit, courage and ability can do, and one welcomes the fact that men born in the lowest circumstances can rise to such high positions. I am an old Liberal. I am not ashamed to admit that I am an old Gladstonian Liberal. I was in the House of Commons with Mr. Gladstone. I differ entirely from the fundamental conception of the Government in ensuring production. The Government conception relies upon Parliament. My own idea is that you should rely upon the people. They are the ones who will increase production in the country. Parliament—I have a long experience of it and I know it—is mixed up with politics; and politics do not mix with industry. If your Lordships will forgive me, I will just illustrate how Ministers are appointed. I was put on to a farm when a little under fifteen years of age. I had to manage it; the farm was my university. One thing about it was that it taught me to think. A man cannot be a farmer without thinking.

I got into Parliament. In 1905 Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman offered me a position in his Government; it was at the Admiralty. There was I—a farmer. I 487 went to the Admiralty. And I can tell your Lordships quite plainly that for two years I was "at sea." I was there for eight or nine years, and then a political crisis came. I had got to know something about it then. There was to be a representative of the Admiralty in the House of Lords. I was not eligible and I went out. That is my own experience. I do not in the least complain. But why are Ministers appointed? Not because they are fit for the job but because they must be rewarded for some political service to their Party. I have not the smallest doubt that the Prime Minister had the same difficulties when he appointed his Ministers in July, 1945. We have a Minister of Food. I do not say a word against him; he is a most versatile and agile politician. But what does he know about food and food buying? The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, was a business man. He was brought up in the hard mill of competition. He succeeded. Then we had Sir Ben Smith.

Now we have the present Minister of Food. He has to spend scores of millions of pounds in buying food. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, said yesterday that this bulk buying is very advantageous. I am very dubious of it in the long run. If a Government buyer comes along, he is well-known; everybody is on the look-out for him. Suppose he goes to America or to Canada: The Canadians and the Americans have been extremely generous, but if he went to the Argentine, or even to India to discuss tea, he would not find that they are all myopic philanthropists there. They want to get the best price they can. And they do. Again, to ensure an amount of foodstuffs in this country essential for our population, it has to be remembered that coal is an essential industry. We have a Minister of Fuel and Power. He, too, is a most accomplished Parliamentarian, but he is elected by a mining constituency. He cannot he quite impartial; it is impossible. I can tell noble Lords—if they have not had the experience—that if you want to make a Member of Parliament pop about like peas on a hot frying pan you have only got to touch his seat. The Minister of Fuel is elected by the miners and they see that he behaves himself—from the miners' point of view. You cannot expect impartial justice when one of the parties to 488 the suit can dismiss the judge. Politics and industry do not mix.

At the Election we had great promises of social reform—including the Beveridge Report. It was then constantly improved. The greatest social reform we could have to-day would be an abundance of commodities for our population. What is the value to-day of our money? I do not know, and no one can say. A man can come to London with, say, £100. But he cannot get a suit of clothes, a shirt, a pair of boots or a pair of socks without coupons Coupons are the valuable things to-day. I shall not detain your Lordships long, but I want to say again that I am a great believer in Mr. Gladstone's principle, that "the duty of a Government is to govern and not to trade." Further, I will give another of his precepts: "Let money fructify in the pockets of the people." To-day, in my judgment, the greatest deterrents to production are high taxes and, now, high rates. Taxes and rates are harbingers of want. Taxes are collected, rates are collected, and they are spent. But are they spent in producing wheat, or meat. or boots, or shoes, or clothes? If your Lordships think about it, almost all the taxes spent to-day are used by consumers and not producers.

Take the case of the miners. I know nothing about mining, but I imagine that there is no greater deterrent to coal production than taxes. A miner works four days a week, and earns as much as he can spend; therefore why should he work two days more? The miner is a human being, and he does not think of adding to the national savings. It seems to me to be simple human nature. If P.A.Y.E. were abolished, I believe there would be a great increase in production. Men do not want to work those extra days of the week, because they are taxed so heavily, and they do not work for fun. A point which I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer has missed is that the real directing brains of the country are being frustrated. It is not a question of manpower but of well-directed manpower, and there are few men who have the ability to direct manpower well. Take the recent example of Mr. Henry Ford. He accumulated a large fortune, not because of his blue eyes but because he gave the world what it wanted. So a business man who directs labour in the wisest way will give the public what he wants, and will make a 489 profit. An appalling thing is profit, but you make a profit in business only if you serve the community. I cannot help thinking that the Government (I do not expect they will, because the idea would be very unpopular with them) should set about reducing taxes at the earliest possible moment, and reduce them drastically. Take the food subsidies. The food subsidies are costing the country to-day something like £1,000,000 a day.

§ LORD WOOLTON

£4,000,000.

§ VISCOUNT LAMBERT

I am always moderate. That enormous sum is added to the Budget. What is to be the value of the pound in the future if the Budget does not balance? I do not know, and I am sure that none of your Lordships knows. When I was in America last autumn I was told that the pound was going to fall. What would be the value of the pound to-day were it not for the Canadian and American loans? If I had any influence with the Government I would certainly take off some of the food subsidies. It is said that that will create hardship; but it would not create half the hardship that will be experienced later on when the pound depreciates in value, as undoubtedly it will. I shall probably get into hot water for saying what I propose to say now. I understand that the Government are proposing to maintain Armed Forces to the tune of something like 1,000,000 men in 1948. I do not think the country can afford it without very considerable privation amongst our people. Before the war we had, I think, something less than 500,000 men in the Armed Forces. The other place is strangely excited about conscription, but I think we want men home now for production. I know I shall get into trouble with the Admirals, the Generals, and the Air Marshals, but that does not interest me, because although I know nothing about naval, military or air strategy, I do know that an Army must be fed, and an Army must have munitions. I may be alone in that, but it does not matter—it is what I think.

Take the great increase in the Civil Service. How many civil servants are producing food? How many are producing clothes or boots: and how many are producing material to send abroad to pay for food? There is this monstrous army of civilians overlooking other people, consuming all the time but producing nothing 490 but vexation. Then we have Government planners—there was a super-planner recently appointed. I have one remedy for planners—Government planners I mean—and that is to sack the lot. But the country will have to learn by suffering. There has been a vast amount of propaganda, telling us that our Labour friends would bring so much prosperity and plenty to the country. That propaganda has not been exhausted yet, but I am afraid the time is coming when there will be a very sharp awakening by our people. It seems to me, speaking again as an old Liberal, that all the emphasis against the profit motive has been wrongly directed. Profit can only be made by service.

Then there are the trade unions. They are admirable institutions. The father of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, was a great ornament in the trade unions, and a good Foreign Secretary, too, if I may say so. But the trade unions have got out of hand; there are strikes everywhere. When I read of the strikes in Covent Garden of the men who refused to unload food, I thought: They should think themselves lucky that they have any food at all. It is not a question of distribution of food, but really of getting the food here at all. I am grateful to your Lordships for listening to me. I observed yesterday that the Prime Minister had a meeting with his trade union colleagues, and I began to think that your Lordships' House is no longer the Upper House; the real Upper House is at Smith Square, and the real Lords of Parliament are at Transport House. I wish the Prime Minister, as well as consulting his trade union colleagues, would consult those leaders of industry who have built up the prosperity of our country.

§ THE EARL OF AIRLIE

My Lords, the duty falls upon me, on behalf of your Lordships, of offering the noble Viscount, Lord Lambert, our heartiest congratulations, not only on his splendid speech but also on the fact that he has joined your Lordships' House. If I may say so—and I say it with a good deal of diffidence, being a somewhat younger man—the task should have fallen upon shoulders more qualified than mine to offer our congratulations, but I do so feeling that your Lordships will support me in every way. Everything the noble Lord said had sound substance, although I am not entirely 491 with him in his argument regarding military service. At one moment I was wondering whether he was in the wrong seat and, as a good progressive Tory, he was on the wrong side of the House. We hope he will be long spared to give us the benefit of his advice. We are very sorry, that he has first sat in your Lordships' House with a rumble in his "tummy," but I have no doubt that from time to time, by means of speeches in your Lordships' House, he will be able to get rid of that rumble.

Unfortunately, I was unable to be present yesterday, owing to local authority work in Scotland, but I have read with the greatest of interest, and listened to-day with equal interest—though not without considerable concern—to what has fallen from the lips of noble Lords. I am especially concerned about what was said yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, and by what I heard to-day from the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr. I would like to say that whatever the noble Lord, Lord Woolton, says, must carry a great deal of weight not only in your Lordships' House but outside—and I say this quite frankly—by reason of his being Minister of Food during the war: and not only because of that, but because of the great success which he achieved during his tenure of that office. As I understand it, most of that success was due to the fact, as has already been mentioned, that he kept a very open mind, and above all was one of those who knew that the secret of good administration lies in delegation and decentralization—a fact that is not always realized, I am sorry to say, by His Majesty's Government. There were the further facts, which have already been mentioned, that he used all the best brains in the food industry in helping to advise him, and, above all, so long as he was able, before we were forced into Government trading, he allowed the skilled buyers to do the job for the Government.

The noble Viscount, Lord Lambert, frankly admitted that whenever a Government trader or buyer went abroad he was easily recognized. I hesitate to say this in your Lordships' House, but in my country any gentleman from the Government, whether he be Minister or official, is known by the term "the mon with the strippet trewsers". He is a man who wears striped trousers, and I can assure you that we "smell" them in Scotland, 492 wherever they go. I am afraid it is not a term of endearment. I will not say it is a term of contempt. The noble Lord, Lord Woolton, said that trading and politics do not make good companions. if you can get rid of this Government trading, then you allow realism once more to take charge, not politics nor international relations. That is very important in these days. This applies equally to the question of the housewives. Most of your Lordships will know by now that womenfolk are realists, and they do not care whether it is Lord Woolton or Mr. Strachey who is Minister of Food, so long as he produces the goods and gives them something to put in the stomachs of their children and their husbands. So long as he does that they are perfectly satisfied. When the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, said that he felt the womenfolk of this country were beginning to understand the difficulties of the situation—and I almost thought he rather suggested that they understood why things were so difficult—I am afraid I cannot agree with him. I do not know if he has attended any of these housewives' meetings lately, but in Scotland we do not dare go into a queue.

If your Lordships will bear with me—with the exception of one or two points which I intend to raise at the end—I will confine myself to a point which deals with my country, Scotland. I hesitate to inflict this upon your Lordships, but I am always trying to make you understand, if I can, that you cannot do without us. We are very important to you, whether through the breeding of men or seed potatoes I do not care. We can do the trick, and you cannot do without us. I am raising a special point with regard to the food administration of this country as it affects Scotland, which during the last few years have proved an utter failure, and has caused untold misery, quite unnecessarily—especially last winter. I refer, of course, to the question of winter storage of food for emergency needs such as arose last winter, and such as do frequently arise. The point has been raised several times in your Lordships' House, and I was informed that probably the most convenient way of raising it as shortly as possible would be during this debate, rather than to initiate a separate discussion in these busy times of what I choose to call this miss production of legislation. 493 I raise it in view of what I call an entirely unsatisfactory reply given by the noble Lord to a question asked a few weeks ago by Lord Tweedsmuir, and I think noble Lords from Scotland will agree with me. I am afraid I regard this reply as misleading. Of course, I absolve the noble Lord who replied on behalf of the noble Lord who usually answers for Scotland of any sinister motive. The fact is, that it was another dreary example of noble Lords having to rely on a Departmental brief without any real first-hand knowledge of the situation or of the rural conditions. I say this because I have the greatest respect and admiration for the noble Lord who answers for Scotland. He has done a great deal of work, and done a great deal for us, and he is a very good Scotsman. But we felt that in these days it is essential that we should be allowed to have someone to answer problems, not only as they affect the urban view, but from the rural point of view, because after all that is really the backbone of Scotland, and it is in these rural districts that there lies the great difference between England and Scotland.

I want to be quite frank, without hurting anybody's feelings. I would suggest that one of the noble Lords who answers in your Lordships' House should occasionally spend six months in one of these glens; he would learn a great deal! Whether the climate or the people would kill him first I am not sure, because I am afraid the name of the Government is not very good just now. I do not think the people know who are the leaders but regard them as just a Government who do not seem to care whether the Scots have houses, or even if they starve. And they very nearly did starve last winter. I know of places where they were down to half a slice of bread, and had it not been for air transport they certainly would have starved. This point has been pressed again and again. The noble Lord who replied to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Tweedsmuir, stated that the machinery was there, but the fault was that the people failed to apply. It is true there was a certain amount of failure to apply, but for two very good reasons. The first was that we asked for a workable scheme, and it was not workable; it did not suit the conditions. The second reason was that the scheme was not made universally known.

494 The Minister of Food was good enough to receive a deputation of the Members of another place and myself, when I put forward two special points to him, which were these. I hoped that it might be possible once again to delegate to Divisional food officers, first to work out a scheme and to decide who was to be included in that scheme; and secondly, to make it known through the medium of the Press. This, however, was held to be absolute rank heresy. It was said, "What? Place responsibility on the shoulders of local officers, food officers and so on, to say who were to be included in the scheme? That would never do!" But it is the only way in which the country, with such diverse conditions, can be run. You mast delegate power, because these officers understand local conditions. The people in London and Edinburgh cannot be expected to understand. There are perfectly sound and sensible men who are quite capable, not only of producing a scheme that is suitable to the district but also of administering it. The fact that the Government do not delegate is, in my opinion, the chief reason for the ghastly muddle in which we find ourselves to-day.

It was through our insistence in Angus in Scotland in 1943 that we got the power to lay in rations in advance. This winter was a very hard one, but I am not speaking idly when I say that if you ask the people in Scotland they will tell you that it was no harder than a good many other winters. As fast as the roads were opened up, down came the snow, and they were closed again. Last winter was little worse actually than the winters in 1941 and 1942. Ask the road surveyors. They will tell you and will also bear out that we have an average of three bad winters out of five. People are cut off and prevented from getting outside their doors from anything from a fortnight to ten weeks. Those are really special conditions and they need a workable scheme.

I am not going to weary your Lordships with details of how such a scheme should be worked out, or with the difficulties inherent in it. But the Minister of Food, after having been prayed for many months to take oatmeal off points, took it off only at the end of one of the severest winters in the memory of man, when nobody wanted it so badly, and he took the subsidy away at the same time. What was the result. It went up to nearly 495 double in price. There may be some good reason, and we do want to get rid even of subsidies as soon as we can. Is this the forerunner of the taking off of further subsidies? Oatmeal is one of the necessities of life in Scotland. If you are going to take the subsidy off oatmeal, are you going to take it off bread? I think I can tell your Lordships the answer: it is physically impossible. Bread is 4d. per loaf now; if you took the subsidy off it would cost something like 1s. 4d. and you would have revolution in a very short time, But oatmeal is another matter. The Scots are too few and too far off to cause you much worry.

It is obvious that when you have people snowed up to such an extent as they have been this winter they cannot keep bread in hand. You must, therefore, have some systematic arrangement for an alternative, such as flour to store. But, unfortunately, under the present system, flour is of 87 per cent. extraction and does not keep. Therefore you find that these people are allotted a certain amount of flour, but there is perhaps a four months' storm and they have flour that is no good. I do not know whether it is possible to give them white flour. They give it to the Navy. The proper answer, I think, is that these people should be allowed to store an emergency ration over and above the ordinary points and B.U.'s. This is a strong thing to say, but the Lord knows the conditions in which these people live are bad enough—shortage of coal, shortage of rations, shortage of clothes. All these conditions are much harder to bear at 1,400 to 1,500 feet above sea level than they are at 100 or 200 feet above sea level. This applies equally to clothes and food. These people really do need something a little extra. If their conditions can be lightened, I hope that the Government will do what they can in that direction.

I repeat that you must delegate powers to efficient subordinates—the divisional food officers and so on—and they should be responsible for the administration. In my county we have a number of men with the Scottish characteristics of initiative and capability, and the Government should make it possible for them to produce and administer a scheme which would meet local needs. Is the Government too frightened of losing control at the centre and of meeting the needs of 496 these people in the most sensible way? The only other alternative is for His Majesty's Government to instruct the Ministry of Food to work out a scheme whereby dumps of necessities, such as flour that will keep, fats, canned margarine, treacle, syrup, canned soup and meat should be kept at strategic points in outlying districts. They could be in the charge of perhaps the local policeman, or the schoolmaster, or minister, or some other person of repute, from whom supplies could be drawn by sledge or sleigh. That is a way whereby a repetition of last winter's unnecessary discomfort could be avoided—and also effect a saving in rates by not having to feed them by air or by track vehicle. I hope the noble Lord will be able to give an assurance that the matter will be looked into further.

I understood the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, to say that the Government were trying to give more feeding stuffs for livestock. I see in Hansard that the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, suggested that we might get more shell eggs from the Continent, and the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, asked him how they got the feeding stuffs to produce more eggs. The noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, I believe, said he did not know. I do not understand that. Do we not work under a system whereby we get fair shares of the world supplies? I turn to the question of labour. In the debate on agriculture some weeks ago I asked a specific question as to what had been happening to the volunteers among German prisoners of war. I also asked whether some scheme could not be arranged whereby Germans who might wish to volunteer could be employed. I wonder whether anything further has come from that suggestion.

Now I wish to turn to a more general point. I wonder whether at the present moment it is quite realized—I doubt whether it is for I do not think the Scottish papers are very much read in England—what a deplorable state agriculture in Scotland is in at the moment, owing to the dreadful winter through which we have passed and to the continued bad weather. The weather seems just as bad now as ever it was. I left Scotland only last night and it was still raining then. We have had practically continuous rain or snow since last October. Our stock have suffered terribly, and they are still dying. I was very glad to hear what the noble Earl, 497 Lord Huntingdon, said with regard to the help that is being and is to be given. But, as I say, our stock are dying, and, so far as I can see, there will be no lambs this year for sale and no gimmers next year. Crop cultivation is so far behind that practical farmers have voiced the opinion that we may easily miss a whole year's crop. That is perfectly possible, and I do not need to tell your Lordships what a serious thing that would be, not only from the Scottish point of view but also from the English point of view.

Yesterday, or the day before, the Scottish Section of the National Farmers' Union sent a telegram to the Secretary of State for Scotland and to the Prime Minister telling them the situation, and urging that Double British Summer Time should be done away with. They emphasized the seriousness of the situation, and maintained that if it was to be saved this Double Summer Time must be stopped at once. The Government must listen to these experts—and they are experts. After al, we, in Scotland, do provide for you seed potatoes, quantities of oats, a considerable amount of wheat, sheep stock and so forth. Somehow or other, His Majesty's Government have got to be awakened out of their dream-sleep and brought to realize the seriousness of the situation. They keep on talking and saying that they want to see the agricultural situation improved, but they do nothing about it. They do nothing substantial with regard to housing or with regard to the labour position. They make a lot of speeches but nothing happens.

When the weather is good, our labourers in Scotland, like those in England, are not frightened to put their backs into their work. They do not hesitate to work for the best part of nineteen hours out of the twenty-four. To-day we are living in an atmosphere of strikes. We wake up to strikes, and we go to bed with strikes still going on. Most of us have the greatest admiration for the miners, and for others who have been concerned in recent disputes. Some of us have served with them and we know what magnificent men they are. The country, as a whole, has always had a very warm feeling for the miners. I hate to say it, but that warm feeling is gradually being dissipated. You cannot expect the housewife to feel quite the same now about the miners as she used to do. 498 You cannot expect the agricultural worker to feel the same. And what about the agricultural worker? Does he not have to go short of coal? Suppose he struck; visualize the position which would arise. Suppose the agricultural labourer followed the miner's example, and said: "Unless you give me some coal I am not going; to produce any more food." It would be a very nasty situation for the miners and for the country as a whole. Indeed, I can almost imagine the girths of some noble Lords who now sit in this House being considerably reduced in a very short time.

You could not blame the agricultural worker if he did strike. It makes him and his fellows a little unhappy when they see red carpets being put down, free lunches being given, and free tickets for football matches being handed out to the miners who, after all, are only trying, or should be trying, to pull the country out of a very serious situation. The agricultural labourer is trying to do the same. But does he get red carpets, free lunches, and free tickets to football matches? No, sir. All he gets is the thick end of the stick.

I do feel—and this has been the theme of my very inadequate speech—that somehow or other His Majesty's Government have got to approach the present situation with much more sympathy for the rural population and the rural parts of the country; they must give up regarding it entirely from the urban point of view. If they continue to neglect it—they are still neglecting it, and it is no good saying they are not—there will be a most unholy economic crash, because the rural community are the backbone of this country. I am hoping that shall hear a free and frank declaration of the situation from the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House. His Majesty's Government owe it to the people, and they owe it to themselves, because, so sure as eggs are eggs, the people of this country will one day wake up to the truth and will want an account of this Government's stewardship. If I am not mistaken, while they might stand stupidity, and might even understand it if noble Lords in the Government have been mistaken, what they will not understand, and what they will not tolerate is— what I am afraid is a fact—that they have been deliberately misled. And I, for one, can only pray God for mercy on the Government's souls when they are found out.

§ LORD MORRISON

My Lords, for nearly two days this debate has ranged almost all over the world—or at any rate to nearly every part of the world—and thanks to the noble Earl who has just spoken it has at last reached remoter parts of Scotland. I am sure that neither the noble Earl nor myself desire to keep the debate pegged down to the more remote parts of Scotland, therefore, if he will allow me, I would like to reply briefly to the particular Scottish points which he raised. Then, if he is satisfied—as I hope he may be—the debate may move forward on its journey again.

The noble Earl once did me the compliment of quoting a remark which I made in my early days in your Lordships' House, to the effect that I had been brought up in a school, to which evidently he also belongs—a school in which, when you see a head, you beat it. The noble Earl has been carrying out that policy in a way that delights my heart. But I am not sure that he is not taking a rather exaggerated view in thinking that the people are seething with discontent at the conduct of the present Government. I think that comment applies not only to the noble Earl but to a good many other noble Lords on the Opposition side of the House who have spoken in this debate. If we were to believe all they say, it would seem that the name of the Government is not very good, not only in parts of Scotland but anywhere else. Perhaps when the noble Earl goes out of this Chamber he will look at the tape and note the result of a by-election which took place yesterday. That by-election was not in Scotland, it is true, but I doubt whether the result would have been very different if it had been.

The noble Earl has raised several questions of detail which I am sure he will not expect me, at such short notice, to cover in my reply. But these points will be looked into, and I will give the noble Earl an assurance that they will be carefully considered by the Departments concerned, and a reply will be sent to him. There are, of course, as he will appreciate, practical difficulties in seeing that arrangements made in advance will be completely effective in all circumstances, particularly in the abnormal circumstances to which he referred. But, in so far as normal difficulties can be met they are already provided for in arrangements made during 500 the war, which are still in operation. Here I admit at once—and I regret it—that my knowledge of the remote parts of Scotland with which the noble Earl is so familiar is very scanty. I hope to improve it in the near future, and I trust that I shall have the noble Earl's assistance in doing so, when I get the time to go up to Scotland. I hope that he will show me some of these places of which he has spoken, and will be an instructor to me. In the reply which I shall give it is possible that the arrangements which I shall detail may not be operated adequately in all parts of Scotland. If there is any exception in any of those parts with which the noble Earl is so well acquainted, if he will let me know about it afterwards I will see that some special investigation is made.

I want to deal with the arrangements under two headings—foodstuffs and feeding stuffs. The existing arrangements with regard to foodstuffs take the form of discretionary powers given to divisional food officers of the Ministry of Food to enable people living in outlying areas to use coupons in advance. These powers have been widely used since their introduction and during the past winter. It is said these discretionary powers are not enough, and that the Ministry of Food should arrange for the storage of food in bulk in outlying areas. If given effect to, this suggestion might be wasteful of both food and manpower. Surely it is a wiser policy to leave the distribution to wholesale and retail food traders who are well aware of the special circumstances prevailing in their areas, and who can make reasonable provision to maintain their stocks to meet these conditions.

§ THE EARL OF AIRLIE

But they cannot get up there. I am talking about strategical points in the glens, where dumps can be made because the vans cannot get up.

§ VISCOUNT ELIBANK

I happened to be Food Commissioner for the West of Scotland during the 1914–1918 war, and we always left stores of food up in the Highlands and the glens and in such places as have been described by the noble Earl this afternoon. This was in order that in the bad stretches of weather, such as they always had in the winter, the people would not go wanting. That arrangement was quite satisfactory. You 501 have to rely upon the honesty and the good sense of the people, but it is the only satisfactory way of meeting these conditions. I strongly urge the Government or the Secretary of State for Scotland (whoever is responsible) to renew those arrangements as the only possible way of meeting the difficulty.

§ LORD MORRISON

Perhaps both noble Lords will allow me to complete the reply I was about to make. The existing arrangements with regard to foodstuffs take the form of discretionary powers given to divisional food officers of the Ministry of Food to enable people living in outlying areas to use coupons in advance. I would like to emphasize the point about the discretionary powers vested in the divisional food officers. These include the power to distribute food held in the Ministry's own depôts in that area. That, I gather, is what the noble Earl indicated he did when he was Divisional Food Officer for West Scotland.

§ VISCOUNT ELIBANK

We actually placed stores with the grocers and so on, right up in the glens. What the noble Lord says is that these officers have the power of distribution.

§ LORD MORRISON

What I said, and what I wished to emphasize, was that the discretionary powers vested in the divisional food officers included the power to distribute food held in the Ministry's own depots in their areas, and that coupons (except the weekly coupons for meat and bacon) can be used for the whole of the four-weekly ration period during the first week of that period without any special dispensation. That was made more flexible during the recent hard winter by arrangements under which food coupons were made usable for a further month beyond the normal availability date. As I said at the outset, if the noble Lord will let me have particulars of any cases of hardship I will be glad to have those cases investigated.

With regard to feeding stuffs, arrangements are made each winter by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland to release a quantity of feeding stocks to meet the needs of hill ewes at lambing tim