HL Deb 01 August 1906 vol 162 cc884-1019

Order of the day for the Second Reading read.

*THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Earl of CREWE)

My Lords, although in rising to move the Second Reading of this Bill to make further provision for education in England and Wales, I cannot put forward the plea for indulgence which is often advanced by those who have only lately become members of your Lordships' House, yet I am none the less disposed on that account to ask for your consideration on this occasion. As your Lordships are aware, it is the custom in this House, so far as speeches are concerned, to take the First and Second Reading of a Bill together. It is necessary, not merely to explain the principles on which proposed legislation is founded, but also to give some account of the actual particulars of a Bill. In this case the general outline is very familiar to many of your Lordships, but the particulars are unusually intricate and obscure, and, consequently a speaker in my position has to steer his ship very carefully in order to avoid, on the one hand, running up against the rock of platitude, or, on the other hand, being engulfed in the whirlpool of detail.

There is a further consideration which makes me ask for your Lordships' indulgence, and that is founded upon the composition of this House in relation to this particular measure. In another place, I think, pretty nearly all the different religious bodies affected by this Bill are well represented, but in your Lordships' House that is not the case. The Church of England is represented here not only in great variety, but also in the most authoritative manner possible. The Roman Catholic Church is also well represented here, but I do not know whether in the course of this debate any voice will be raised speaking authoritatively on behalf of the Nonconformist bodies, or on behalf of those who take a purely secular view of this question. I am almost tempted to wish that for once in a way the two Houses could have sat together on this subject in joint session. I feel that the debates which would then have followed would have been not merely exceedingly instructive, but also very possibly somewhat exciting.

I do not propose to dwell at any length upon the history of this question, and, indeed, it is only in relation to what is known as the religious difficulty that I propose to deal with history at all. As your Lordships all know, the association between teaching and the different religious bodies in this country is of very long standing. It dates from the days when a clerk and a cleric were almost indistinguishable. I need not remind your Lordships, although I should be blamed if I did not do so to some extent, of the services which have been rendered to the cause of education in the past in this country by the Church of England and also by other religious bodies. I have no intention of minimising those services. On the other hand, I do say this, that any scheme for continued control of education on behalf of any church must be subject to two very distinct considerations. In the first place, we are bound to consider the lapse of time. There must be some statute of limitations in this matter, and we are bound to regard the new conditions under which we live; and so far as the Church of England is concerned I merely desire to say that while I recognise to a great extent the claims which she has put forward, yet I am not prepared to admit that all the schools which are said to have been built by the Church have really been built with Church money, because a very considerable number of them have been built as the appanage of country estates, and others have been erected, as is well known to your Lordships, less with a desire to promote a particular kind of education than with a wish to effect some saving on the rates.

I need not dwell on what is known as the compromise of 1870. That was a. compromise somewhat sulkily arrived at, but perhaps it was not altogether un-suited to the circumstances of the time. In 1876 an important step was taken by making school attendance everywhere compulsory. I pass over the changes of the intervening years, and come at once to the Act of 1902, under which the elementary education of this country is still carried on. In that year Voluntary schools for the first time applied for, and obtained, rate aid, disregarding many warnings such as that which was given by Bishop Wilberforce in the course of the 1870 controversy, when he said that immediately you introduce the ratepayer you must give him the real direction of the instruction furnished by the rates. You know very well that the Act of 1902 has created a vast amount of discontent in this country. I remember that the noble Viscount, Lord Cross, in the course of the debates in this House on that Bill, said that when the Bill passed the feeling against it in the country would subside. That has not proved to be the case. Wales revolted almost en masse against the Act. Some 70,000 summonses were issued against those in England who declined to pay rates under these conditions; and behind them there was a vast body of people who for one reason or another did not see their way to join in that particular form of protest, but at the same time deeply resented the provisions of the Act.

That was the position which the Government had to face when we came into office. We had to consider what alternative systems exist for elementary education in this country which either we or any Government could possibly adopt. It might be possible in this country to adopt a secular system pure and simple. I, for one, have no desire to disparage the value of what is known as ethical teaching. I am quite prepared to admit the great value of such teaching, and I might remind your Lordships that the present administration at the Board of Education has issued regulations designed to extend it. But, against the introduction of a secular system into this country there remains one fatal objection—that the people of this country will not have it. That is sufficiently shown by the fact that when it was proposed in another place only sixty-three members of Parliament could be found to vote for it as against 477 who recorded their votes in the opposite lobby. I think we must presume that that majority at least reflects the opinion of the country, and shows that the people of England and Wales are determined not to have to depend in their elementary schools upon a system of teaching which is not governed by some supernatural sanction.

Failing a purely secular system, you may fall back in one form or another on what is known as concurrent endowment. There is no doubt that there are many people in this country who feel a strong abstract objection to concurrent endowment. The teaching or endowment of religion in any form, they say, is not the business of the State; but I am bound to admit, and I make a present of the argument to noble Lords opposite, that if it could be shown that any system of concurrent endowment of religious instruction was suited to our social system in this country and was fair in itself, I do not believe that these theoretical objections would weigh the value of a brass farthing in the minds of the people of this country. I can imagine a case in India of a town containing so many Hindoos, so many Mohammedans, and so many Sikhs, not differing greatly in social position as between the different religions, in which it would be a matter of very small importance whether schools for their children were concurrently endowed or not. But what we maintain is that no approximation to those conditions exists in this country.

Concurrent endowment may take different forms. It may be either complete—that is to say, in which the State provides schools and teaching for all the different religious bodies in the country— or it may be modified in a form in which the State assists in the erection of school buildings by people of a particular religious denomination, accepts the use of those buildings for secular teaching, and pays denominational teachers; or lastly, concurrent endowment may take the form of what I venture to describe as a pseudo-secular system, that principle which was advocated in another place by Mr. Chamberlain, by which religious instruction is to be given by State teachers within school hours. I will say a word upon each of those forms in turn.

The first form, that of complete concurrent endowment, I venture to dismiss very briefly. The multiplication of religious beliefs in this country is so vast that it would be obviously impossible for the State to supply schools and teachers to suit everybody. Of course, we should all agree that there must be some limitations. Nobody would suggest that a single family of Swedenborgians settled on Salisbury Plain had a right to have a school built for them at the public expense and a teacher maintained who believed and was prepared to instruct the children in the principles of the Church of the New Jerusalem. But even without taking almost ludicrous instances of that kind, it is perfectly obvious to anybody who knows the circumstances of this country that it is absolutely impossible to build schools and to find teachers of a particular denomination for all the different varieties of belief in this country.

I pass to the second form, modified concurrent endowment, which represents what really, I think, is the general denominational demand in this country. It represents very largely the demand which the Church of England makes in this matter; that is to say, that a religious denomination should be allowed to erect a building which should be taken over for certain purposes by the State, represented by the local authority, on the understanding that religious teaching should be given in the schools and a denominational teacher should be paid by the State. I am obliged to say that in my judgment such a solution of the religious difficulty is absolutely impossible as a permanent solution, because of the utterly unfair advantage which it gives to the Established Church. In the first place, the Established Church covers a great variety of beliefs, and it appears to me that when you are endowing concurrently you must know exactly what it is you are endowing. Now, it is in one sense the boast and the pride of the Church of England that she casts a wide net; she casts an even wider net than the Church of the Fisherman himself; but that very fact makes it infinitely more difficult to do in this case what in effect is giving a special privilege to the Church.

Just think, my Lords, in this form of State assistance to denominational schools, what an immense advantage, what an essentially unfair advantage, is given to the Church of England by the existence of the parochial system. So far as rural districts are con- cerned, the gain by the existence of the parish church and all its surroundings to the cause of that particular denonination is almost incalculable, and, therefore, I say without hesitation, that if it were desired to institute a permanent system of concurrent endowment in this country, a necessary preliminary would be the disestablishment and disendowment of the Church of England. But, my Lords, if that were done, I should certainly not admit that the conditions were even then equal as between the Church and other religious bodies in this country. After all you have to reflect that the religious cleavage in own social fabric is not vertical, cutting through all classes. It is a horizontal cleavage, including, roughly speaking, what are known as the upper classes and the wealthy classes within the Church of England. I repeat that statement without hesitation. By far the greater part of the land in this country belongs to members of the Church of England. That of itself obviously gives a great advantage in this particular matter, and if you compare the position of the Church of England with that of a poor body such as the Primitive Methodists, who after all are not to be despised in any sense, numerically or otherwise, for they have some half million children in their Sunday schools—if you compare the conditions of such a body with those of the Church of England, you will see that nominally to treat all bodies alike is to give a most preponderating advantage to one.

I desire to say one word upon the proposition which I include under this head of concurrent endowment, a proposition which is of special interest because it represents the only alternative proposal that has been made by the Opposition since this Bill has been brought in—I mean Mr. Chamberlain's proposal of what are known as all-round facilities. His proposition is that in all schools religious teaching of that kind which is desired by, I suppose, a certain number of parents should be given not at the expense of the State, but within hours of compulsory attendance, and by the teacher whom the State appoints and pays. I might at first point out that there is one important body in this country to whom such a solution as that must be utterly unpalatable. I refer to the Roman Catholic Church. I say that it is not possible for the Roman Catholic Church or, for those members of the Church of England who demand a religious atmosphere running through the whole of the education of the school, to accept a solution of this kind, which makes the schools nominally secular and really secular during the hours of ordinary education, but permits ministers of religion or teachers of religion to give instruction during the specified half-hour. But I should prefer, on the general question, to rest my condemnation of this proposition on a much higher authority than mine. It is that of a right rev. Prelate who, unfortunately, is not yet a Member of this House, but who has been one of the doughty opponents in the country of this Bill. I mean the Bishop of Manchester. At the Representative Church Council on 6th July last Chancellor Smith moved a resolution to the effect that it was the duty of all local education authorities to make provision in the schools for the imparting of such religious instruction to the children as the parents required, or, in the absence of expressed requirements, was in accord with the form of religion to which the parents belonged. The Bishop of Manchester said he did not think the Chancellor had clearly worked out in his own mind what was the effect of requiring the local authority in such area to provide religious instruction on the lines of the denomination to which the parent belonged. He pointed out that even in villages there were most extraordinary varieties of belief, and said he was not himself prepared to agree that the country would tolerate the expense of such an arrangement. After pointing out that if the local authority were compelled to provide competent teachers in all the different forms of belief the education rate would go up by leaps and bounds, the right rev. Prelate added— On the other hand, if the denominations were to provide it he was quite sure it meant in the long run that the Church of England would take an advantage of the other denominations which he did not wish the Church of England to take. If they required the teaching to be given at the expense of the denominations, they would be making a grab at religious education far greater than they were accused having made up to the present time. I am quite content to rest, so far as the Church side of the matter is concerned, upon that statement of the right rev. Prelate; but I am bound also to remind your Lordships that the educational objections to such a system are overwhelming. It would be exceedingly difficult in many places to arrange anything like proper accommodation for different kinds of teaching being given at the same time, and as for the destruction of discipline, I can assure your Lordships that you would only have to take the opinion of the great mass of teachers in the elementary schools to find that they stand aghast at the notion of the adoption of any such plan as this. We have dismissed, therefore, secular education, and we have dismissed the different forms of concurrent endowment. We therefore fall back upon the proposition contained in this Bill. We are anxious, so far as the existing condition of things and the past history of the schools will allow, to found a national system o elementary education.

I will proceed to illustrate the principles which this Bill is intended to carry out by some reference to its actual clauses. Clause 1 says that on and after the 1st day of January, 1908, a school shall not be recognised as a public elementary school unless it is a school provided by the local education authority. It is not too much to say that this clause is the Bill. It is—and we have no desire to conceal the fact—an undenominational Bill tempered by certain exceptions, and not an undenominational Bill professing to be hedged round by safeguards, simply because we do not believe that those safeguards can possibly be devised. Clause 1 declares the principle of public control. Some people have stated that we have a mandate to introduce the principle of public control. I am one of those who are not fond of talking about mandates. I do not think I have ever used the phrase, and I am not sure that I approve of the theory; but as regards this particular point I would prefer to put what comes to much the same thing in another way. If at the last General Election any Liberal candidate had stated on a platform in the constituency which he hoped to represent that he was utterly indifferent to the principle of public control in elementary schools, there is not the slightest doubt that his hoped-for constituents would have conducted him to the railway station and asked him to try his fortune elsewhere. And that I think is shown by the fact that this principle is ushered up to your Lordships by the great majority of no less than 192 obtained on the Third Reading of the Bill in another place. It is the old story in the old homely phrase, "The man who pays the piper may call the tune;" or as a civic dignitary who did not like homely phrases preferred to put it— the individuals who desire to have a voice in the selection of the programme must be prepared to provide remuneration for the orchestra. It is very remarkable, my Lords, how much lip service is done to this principle even by those who profess to disapprove of the provisions of this Bill. Many people who dislike the Bill yet say that they are not prepared to contest, particularly after what has happened in the country, the principle of public control. Some have said— Why did you go into this intricate matter? Why didn't you simply bring in a Bill stating that in Voluntary schools instead of four foundation managers and two managers representing the local education authority, the number should be reversed, and there should be four representing the local authority and two representing the old foundation of the school? That sounds very simple and agreeable at first sight, but I think it is necessary to explain why that could not be done. There is a section—Section 23—in the Act of 1870, which allows the managers of a voluntary school to transfer such school to the local authority. If our Bill was passed it was pretty obvious that the new managers would have adopted this clause. In that case you were at once brought face to face with all these difficult questions relating to the fair way of treating the trusts of the schools and the user which you require from the schools, which we have to face later on in this Bill. On the other hand, if you had repealed Section 23 of the Act of 1870 and taken away that power from the managers, then your public control would obviously have been quite illusory. These four gentlemen appointed by the local authority would simply have had to carry out the duties imposed upon them by the trusts of a denominational school, and their only office would have been to order in the coals and settle the special kind of pen to be used by the children.

In this clause, to put it briefly, the object which we believe we effect is to place an undenominational school within the reach of every child whose parent desires him to attend one, and by so doing we remove one principal grievance of which the Nonconformist churches have complained. That is one-half, at any rate, of what is known as the Nonconformist grievance. It is admitted, I believe, by almost everybody. It was explicitly admitted by the noble Viscount Lord Llandaff in the course of the debates in 1902, and it is admitted to-day by Mr. Balfour. Mr. Balfour says he has always admitted it; but there is no comfort to be got from Mr. Balfour on the subject, because he evidently, thinks it is as far beyond the means of human prevention as an earthquake or an eruption of Vesuvius. I pass to the acquisition of the schools for this purpose. What we hope is that a great number of arrangements will take place under Clause 2. As your Lordships know, a very considerable number of arrangements have taken place under similar circumstances already. Many schools of different kinds, particularly privately-owned schools, have been transferred to local authorities at nominal rents. May I ask your Lordships to consider what it is that the Church, for I am speaking practically now of the Established Church, stands to gain by a transfer of this kind, and what it stands to lose. It stands to gain in all probability a certain amount of rent for the building. It has to the good the taking over by the local education authority of the liability for repairs, and it also has on the credit side those facilities which I shall describe on a later clause. On the other hand, it does lose a considerable portion of its power under the trusts, and it loses the power of appointing the teacher.

Before leaving this branch of the subject, and while still dealing with the acquisition of the schools, it is convenient, I think, to pass over the intervening clauses and to come to the points dealt with in Clauses 9 to 12 inclusive, which describe what happens where no arrangement takes place between the local authority and the owner of the school. Of course, I need not remind your Lordships that where schools belong to private owners it rests entirely with the owner to say whether he chooses to part with his school or not, under certain restrictions as to user which appear later in the Bill; but where schools are subject to trusts a Commission is appointed to deal with the matter.

That Commission takes the place of the Board of Education in the first instance, and in the second instance it takes the place of the courts of law to which further appeal might be made, and it is specially provided that the Commission is to carry on its affairs according to the principles followed by the High Court in exercising as successors of the Court of Chancery the ordinary jurisdiction as to charities. That means principally that where in the opinion of the Court the trust cannot be literally carried out, it should be carried out as nearly as circumstances admit. That is what is familiar to many of your Lordships as the doctrine of Çypres, and that doctrine will be followed by the Commission. It is further provided that the Commission have to take into consideration, in fixing the terms, what real alteration takes place in the future condition of the school from the condition which it has enjoyed in the past; that is to say, when it is a question of fixing terms the Commission are bound to take into consideration what the school can really be said to be losing by the Bill. As regards the personnel of the Commission, that is one feature in the Bill, and perhaps almost the only one, which has I think been subjected to no criticism. The Commissioners are three gentlemen of very high standing—Sir Arthur Wilson, who is one of the most eminent members of the judicial body in England; Sir Hugh Owen, who is a civil servant of unequalled experience; and Mr. Worsley Taylor, so familiar to many of your Lordships who sit in the Committee rooms upstairs, in which he has always been distinguished, not merely for his eminent skill as an advocate, but also for his great fairmindedness. I am glad to know that since the names of these Gentlemen have been announced the practice of describing this Commission as a Star Chamber has ceased, probably from a conviction that their proceedings will be carried out with every regard to justice as understood in this country in the twentieth century.

It will no doubt be argued in the course of this debate that we have no business to deal with these trusts at all, that we have no business to touch them. As to that I might say that some very substantial interference with those trusts took place in the year 1902. Where it suited noble Lords opposite to alter the trusts they did so, very greatly, as we know, to the annoyance of many of their clerical supporters. I would ask your Lordships for one minute to consider what the position is with regard to the claim of the Church of England in this matter. It seems to me reasonable to show that the condition of things has so very greatly altered since those trusts, or a great number of them, were instituted, that it cannot possibly be maintained that they are to be treated as absolutely sacred. I will give you the total sums which were contributed to the maintenance of voluntary schools from 1870 to 1900. In the year 1870 the voluntary contributions and endowments for the maintaining of Voluntary schools reached the sum of £466,000; the Government grants at that time were £562,000. In 1880 the voluntary contributions had risen to £877,000, owing to what happened after the passing of the Education Act of 1870, and the Government grants rose to a little more than £1,500,000. In 1890 the voluntary contributions were £917,000, and the Government grants just under £2,000,000. In 1900 the voluntary contributions were £963,000, and the Government grants £4,417,000. Since 1902, of course, the case is very much stronger, because the voluntary contributions have to a great extent died away, and the vast amount of rate aid, which cannot be calculated because the amount applied to Voluntary schools and to Council schools is not separated, would, of course, bring the figure up to an infinitely greater amount. But the effect of what I have just read is this, that in 1870 the Government grants counted for 35 per cent. and the voluntary contributions for 30 percent. of the total cost, the balance of cost at that time being provided by fees. In 1900 the grants had risen to 78 per cent. of the total cost, and the voluntary contributions had fallen to 17 per cent. It cannot be denied that under those circumstances the conditions have vastly altered, and that it is really, therefore, open to us to modify these trusts in what we consider a fair spirit.

I do not think that the idea that this country is bound by a perpetual obligation to carry on these trusts at the public cost is one that can be regarded as tenable for a moment. I would put an analogy to your Lordships. Suppose the hospitals were handed over to the local authorities. I can imagine a case of a hospital built many years ago by a gentleman who believed in the practice and principles of homœpathy. After a lapse of years people cease to subscribe to this hospital, and it therefore has to be handed over to the local authority. The homœpathic community say to the local authority— You will pay the whole of the expense of this hospital; you will pay the doctors, the nurses, and also for the diet of the patients and all the expenses connected with it. In consideration of that fact you shall be allowed to order the stores from the butcher and the grocer, but we propose to retain in our own hands the appointments of all the doctors and the nurses, and to prescribe the complete regimen for the patients. Would any local authority look, or be asked by a Court of law to look at such a proposition as that? Yet it is not very dissimilar from what the country is now asked to do in the case of these trust schools.

I pass over clauses which deal with the temporary use of the schools, and what would happen if the trustees of a school tried to close it off-hand. I go back to the question of religious instructions and the facilities which are offered. In the Council schools, now, as we hope, greatly to be multiplied in number, the ordinary rule of religion is what is briefly known as the Cowper-Temple system. We had a discussion but a very few days ago upon that system, and I do not propose to dwell upon it at all at this moment; but I do most emphatically repeat that that religion as given in the Council schools at this moment meets the wishes of the vast majority of the parents of the children who attend them. We hear a good deal about the parents and the wishes of the parents in the course of these discussions, but I notice that when Cowper-Temple instruction is under discussion the figure of the parent is, so to speak, wheeled away into the background. What then is urged is not what the parent really does; want, but what in the opinion of gentlemen who speak on the subject he ought to want. I fearlessly repeat that this instruction gives what he really desires. I do not say that it is by any means complete. We know it is not complete, but we maintain that it can be supplemented, and obviously between defect and excess in this matter there is a vast difference, provided that the defect can be supplemented elsewhere.

Clause 3, the clause which deals with facilities, meets the cases of those who complain that Cowper-Temple teaching, as I briefly call it, is defective. I will deal later with those who consider it erroneous. The first case is dealt with by the giving of two days' facilities for special religious teaching, with special arrangements ensuring that each child may receive it. It need only be given on two days a week, and it is given at the hour usually set apart for religious instruction. It is argued that under this system you give a most unfair advantage to the council school Cowper-Temple teaching, because you allow that to be given by the teachers, and you do not allow the teacher to give this facilities teaching. It sounds a paradox, but the desire for Cowper-Temple teaching is, I believe, so general that nobody would particularly volunteer to give it as given, unless it was given by the teacher under the auspices of the local authority. That sounds like a paradox, but you can easily find a parallel from what happens in our political discussions.

We have undenominational politics and we have doctrinal politics. There are several matters on which we are all agreed—the excellence of trial by jury; the admirable adaptability of our constitutional monarchy to the needs of our Empire; and other things of this kind. But when noble Lords opposite send down orators at the expense of their Party to make speeches in the country, it is not upon those truths that they dwell. They dwell upon what I may call doctrinal politics—such questions as the advantages of coolie labour in South Africa, or the sanctity of our present system of licensing public-houses. Therefore, it undoubtedly is the case that if this undenominational teaching had to be privately paid for it would not be given. Some people think that Nonconformists might give it. I believe there is a general belief among a great many people who do not read history and know nothing of the immediate past, that Lord Mount Temple was a Nonconformist. Many of your Lordships remember the distinguished and pious figure of Lord Mount Temple in this House; and, as you know, he was a distinguished representative of the Evangelical Churchmanship of the Victorian era. Some people imagine that Nonconformists would out of their own pockets give the kind of teaching which is imparted in those syllabuses which we discussed the other day. I have no reason to suppose that they would do anything of the kind. I have no doubt that if they had to pay they would teach the doctrines of their particular church. Therefore, we maintain hat there is a complete answer to the criticisms which are levelled against us for allowing this particular form of teaching to be given by the teacher.

What I have said about this undenominational teaching is, of course, not universally true. There are some who consider it to be not merely incomplete, but actually erroneous. It is perfectly obvious to anybody who has even glanced at these syllabuses that no Jew could allow his child to be instructed in that way. Then you have the Roman Catholic Church. As we all know, to the Roman Catholic Church the Bible is not the sole rule of faith, and they are not pre pared to admit that what is spoken of as simple Bible teaching can be supplemented in any way by teaching outside. You cannot have a stronger proof of the position of the Roman Catholic Church in this matter than this. We know that a translation of part of the Scriptures into the vernacular is at any rate liable to be placed on the Index of prohibited books. That shows how many miles apart Protestant and Catholic stand in this matter; and, of course, it is also undoubtedly true that there is a very considerable section of the Anglican Church who hold the same views. What proportion of the Church of England join in the Roman Catholic objections we have never been able to discover. We may possibly have some light thrown on that fact in the course of these debates; but we know from the protests which they have made that they exist, and that they feel deeply on this matter. They, too, like the Roman Catholics, are not satisfied unless they can get a religious atmosphere into the schools.

That was a fact which the Government had to face very early indeed when this legislation was being prepared, and some means had to be found for meeting it. We met it as best we could by drawing a distinction, necessarily rough, but, as we believe, very real, between urban and rural schools. It is necessary to bear that distinction carefully in mind, and also the distinction between well-found denominational schools which have been erected with a distinct determination to maintain special religious teaching, and the inferior and worse found so-called denominational schools which we do not think require the same consideration. That is a distinction which has not been fairly drawn. Rusticus urbano confusus, turpis honesto. This is the origin of Clauses 4, 5 and 6 of the Bill. Those clauses give to certain schools the special facilities on all five days of the week, and they allow this instruction to be given by the teacher. This privilege is confined to urban areas, including urban districts with not less than 5,000 population, and it is only given where it is satisfactorily shown that four-fifths of the parents desire it and that accommodation can be found if necessary for the remaining children whose parents do not desire it.

We selected urban districts for two reasons. In the first place, because it is in hose populous districts that alternative schools will generally be found, and also because as a rule those who desire this particular teaching and dislike any other are, as a rule, clustered around particular churches. That is true of Roman Catholics, but also to some extent of Anglicans. I noticed in reading the Return on the subject of Ecclesiastical Discipline that it is stated that among the 559 churches which were inquired into there were a certain number where the more extreme forms of doctrine and ritual were used. These were mostly in the Metropolitan area or in seaside places, though some of them were in rural parishes. I think it is not unfair to assume that it is in the neighbourhood of such churches as those that schools would exist to which this particular provision might reasonably apply.

This four-fifths proposition has received a vast amount of criticism from different sides. It is by no means liked by some of those who ordinarily support His Majesty's Government, and it is not accepted with enthusiasm by those whom it is intended to benefit. Those facts to my mind speak strongly in favour of this being a sensible proposition. We are asked, Why four-fifths? There may be some who think that five-sixths would be a more reasonable figure; others might say three-fourths; and some people might find a magic in the fraction of seven-tenths. When I was listening to a debate in the other House I heard an hon. Member say that what appeared to him as fair was a majority consisting of one-half. He was an English Member too. When you say, Why four-fifths? any provision where a particular figure is mentioned is open to such a question. People who have incomes below £160 a year pay no income tax. There is no great difference between an income of £159 and £160. Then why particularly £160? Or, if I may quote a case which is more germane to this particular subject, there is a section in the Act of 1902 which provides that a school shall not be considered unnecessary if the average attendance is not less than thirty. One may say, Why thirty? What is the essential difference between a school with an average attendance of thirty and one where the average attendance is only twenty-nine? All you can say here is that the figure four-fifths sufficiently stamps the school as having a definite denominational character, and at the same time it leaves a reasonable probability that accommodation will be found elsewhere for the children of such parents who do not require the teaching. A similar argument which I will not labour applies to the 5,000 limit which is mentioned in the Bill.

Having detained your Lordships so long, I have no intention of going into the complex details of the appeal in this clause. Its form, I admit, is somewhat complicated. This is accounted for by the fact that it represents a considerable number of concessions, and in drafting a Bill there is nothing so fatal to conciseness as concessions. I therefore will not attempt to describe the method of appeal which is intended to safeguard the parents in this matter. I shall probably have some opportunity later of doing so; but I do say this, that the substitution which some think so simple of the word "shall" for "may" In this clause and so making it mandatory, would, in our opinion, land both the schools and the Board of Education in very real difficulties. We believe that the method of appeal which we suggest, added to the possibility in the last resort—I hope only in the last resort and very seldom— of the school standing out of the system altogether and not being supported out of the rates, offers a much more genuine protection and a much more solid probability of getting these four-fifth schools than if the word "shall" was substituted for the word "may."

The next question is one which has given rise to a great deal of discussion. It is the question of attendance at the school during the religious instruction, and whether that attendance is to be compulsory or not. I am reminded of a story which I think is printed in Mr. Herbert Paul's "History of England," of a reply made by Bishop Thirlwall to a Conservative friend of his at Cambridge who objected to the admission of Dissenters to the University on the ground that the presence of Nonconformists would put an end to the practice of Church-going, and that the alternative was compulsory religion or no religion at all. "I confess," said the Bishop — that the distinction is too subtle for my mental grasp. Whether religion which is the subject of compulsion is religion at all is a matter which I think well worthy of consideration. Under the Act of 1870 attendance during what is known as the religious hour in schools was nominally compulsory, but as a matter of fact there is no instance of any parent having been prosecuted for not sending his child to school at that time. Things went on in that manner until the year 1903, when there was issued from the Education Department the "Anson by-law," which enabled local authorities to dispense parents from the necessity of sending their children to school for religious instruction, with a sort of general vague understanding that the child was to be given religious instruction elsewhere, but without offering any means of discovering whether he really received it or not. That by-law has been adopted by authorities representing about two-fifths of the total number of children. In the House of Commons during the progress of the Bill this subject was very keenly debated. It gave rise to strong differences of opinion which were not confined to one side, and which even invaded the circle of the Cabinet. The arguments are no doubt strong both ways. If you say that no parent need send his child to school during the religious hour, you are no doubt open to the charge of practically secularising the schools, and you are also open to the charge of making it likely that parents will take advantage of this permission to employ their children in various undesirable ways instead of sending them to school. These arguments are undoubtedly strong, but to my mind the arguments in the other direction carry still greater weight. In the first place, it is exceedingly difficult to arrange— and this is a minor matter—in some cases for the proper giving of secular instruction during that time; but, what is much more important, it is very difficult to make the conscience clause effective unless you allow the child to withdraw not merely from the instruction but from the school-house itself. It is not to be supposed that young children can stand up and announce their objection or their parents' objection to a particular form of religious instruction; nor are they likely to do so on their own initiative if the secular instruction which is provided as an alternative is, as is very often the case, of an extremely unpalatable character. I am convinced that if when at school your Lordships had been given the choice of listening for half an hour to the admonitions of a Mohammedan Mullah or doing a set of Greek iambics you would not all have chosen the iambics.

The third argument in favour of not making attendance compulsory is one which, to some extent, appeals to the Government, namely, that it relieves us from the imputation of giving an undue preference to the ordinary council school instruction, and there is this further point which I think will appeal to some right rev. Prelates and to others of your Lordships, that if attendance is not compulsory those who do not wish their children to receive the ordinary council religious teaching can take them away and teach them in a church or in some other building separately. That is a practice which I believe is being followed in an increasing degree. It points to the fact that the clergy, who have, I believe— I shall be corrected if I am wrong—I will not say of recent years, but for some years past, shown a tendency to give less religious instruction themselves, are disposed to return to the performance of those duties which I think I am right in saying are specifically laid upon them by the canons of the Church. If, on the other hand, you compel the children to attend at the building, you will make that special church teaching in the mornings, which has become a very distinct feature in some towns, an impossibility.

Now, one word about the teacher. Two comments have been made upon the manner in which we treat the teacher with respect to this religious instruction. It is said he may always give Cowper-Temple instruction, even if unfit, and you never, except in the four-fifth schools, allow him to give the two days facilities teaching however willing he may be. Those provisions depend upon the conscience clause for teachers which is included in the Bill. A teacher employed in a public elementary school shall not be required as part of his duty as a teacher to give any religious instruction, and shall not be required as a condition of his appointment to subscribe to any religious creed, or to attend or abstain from attending any Sunday school or place of religious worship. The effect of that is that when a teacher is engaged it is not thought right to ask him what his views are, or whether he will give any particular religious instruction; but, when he is engaged, if he agrees to give the form of religious instruction, the authority may and undoubtedly will cause him to show that he is qualified to give it. That, I think, meets to some considerable extent an objection which has been often raised —namely, that there is a risk of the ordinary religious teaching being given by improper people. I believe that risk in itself is exceedingly small. After all, these teachers are a serious class of people; and the sort of Mephistopheles teacher who is supposed to be giving Bible instruction one moment and speaking at Agnostic meetings the next is, I believe, a very rare being indeed. If he exists at all—and he may exist here and there—I have no hesitation in saying that his existence as a religious teacher is a scandal, and that the local authority would, and ought under our measure, to find somebody else to give the religious instruction.

But when you say the teaching should only be given by those who believe in it, you come, it seems to me, to a very difficult question. It is very difficult to define what belief is. There are many degrees and varieties of belief, even within the ranks of the Church of England; but what I do desire to say is this, that after all conviction is much, but it is very far indeed from being everything. Unless a man has the teacher's gift, no amount of conviction or earnestness or knowledge will enable him to convey in a palatable form to children even the most simple religious instruction; whereas a man whose convictions are far less settled, if he has the gift, would in my belief be able to convey it not merely in a more attractive, but also in a more useful form to the minds of children. Then it is asked, Why not allow the teacher to give the two days facilities teaching in the transferred school? That no doubt seems a reasonable suggestion. It seems hard, undoubtedly, if a teacher is willing to give it, to prohibit him from doing so; but in practice it is believed by a very great number of people—and those who think so object strongly to any alteration of this clause—that it would act as a test— a modified test no doubt—but a real test, in a great many rural schools; and it being, as I have said, our object to make the schools in these districts undenominational, we cannot consent to a proposition which in our opinion would to some considerable extent undo one of the main purposes of the Bill itself. I may just add this, that I think it would not be difficult to show that unless you also hand over the appointment of the teacher to the denomination—which would, of course, destroy the structure of the Bill altogether—this permission would cut both ways in a great many instances. What would happen in such cases would depend upon whether the local authority desired the teacher to give the instruction or not, because the appointments made by them would no doubt be largely governed by some consideration of this question.

I pass very rapidly over the question of finance, which is one which does not specially concern your Lordships' House. It is provided by the Bill that a sum of £1,000,000 will be found to carry out its object, but I desire to make it quite clear that in the Bill no allocation of this money is suggested at all. The noble Marquess opposite, Lord Huntly, was kind enough to send me a Return he had made out as a sequel to a Question which he asked. I think it will not be difficult to show that the noble Marquess has founded his conclusions on a somewhat unreal basis, but there is no use going into details on this matter. A. Bill has been promised for next year dealing, not only with this million, but with the general allocation of all the money which is provided by the State for this purpose; but I want to make this one point clear, namely, that the fact that the sum of a million was named has no relation whatever to the probabilities or possibilities of the amount required by individual schools, or likely to be received by individual schools, in the form of rent. The two things have nothing whatever to do with each other, and any argument founded on a supposed connection is illusory.

I pass, not without satisfaction, from the rather and desert of religious controversy to the more green and pleasant land in which the children themselves live, and to one or two points of a more educational character than those with which I have been hitherto compelled to deal. Your Lordships will have observed that we do not make any alteration in the authority under which elementary education is worked in this country. I need not trouble you at any length with our reasons. Had we started with a clean slate it is possible that we might rot have adopted exactly the plan followed by noble Lords opposite in 1902, but finding matters; s they are we do not thick it would be wise to attempt any further alterations in that respect. But experience has undoubtedly shown that some form of delegation is very much needed. In some county councils the members of the education committees complain that they come great distances at serious sacrifices of time, only to find themselves confronted with an endless agenda paper composed of the most trifling details relating to small schools, and that they really never have the chance of considering educational problems at all. For that reason we propose that in every county in England and Wales, except fourteen counties which have less than 69,000 inhabitants, schemes should be prepared for some form of delegation. The only points about these schemes which I wish to mention are these, that they must be uniform as affecting the one county; that in every case they must involve some disposal of money by the minor authority to whom the power is delegated; that the scheme must provide for the inclusion of women members on the smaller bodies; and what I think is also an important provision, that any go ahead and energetic area which washes to try to improve its own particular education may apply to be specially rated by the county council in order to carry out its ideas. I hope and believe that this plan of delegation will meet with general approval.

The authorities are given sixty years instead of thirty years to repay borrowed money, which will case their position to some extent. Then, as regards higher education, the 2d. limit on the rate is removed. Clause 24 has two very-important provisions—one is for the encouragement of a movement which, has been carried on to some extent successfully by private enterprise, but which we now think needs public support. I mean the provision of vacation schools and play centres for children at times when they are not actually at work; and the second sub-head in the same clause applies in a limited form the important principle of medical inspection to schools. I believe that to be a most important provision. I believe that in the mere matter of dentistry alone the turn of misery and suffering which during all their life the poor children of this country go through in consequence of not having their teeth properly attended to when young is at least as great as that caused by an ordinary European war.

I will not detain you by any reference to the teachers' register, which we propose to abolish. Its abolition has been a matter of some comment, but we have been forced to arrive at the conclusion that the register, so far as it has gone, has not carried out the intentions of Parliament in creating it, and what is worse, that no proposition which has been advanced by those who have most kindly given a great deal of thought and consideration to the subject will carry out the intentions of Parliament. What we hope is that the undoubted hardship which exists in the case of some of those who have gone to trouble and expense in getting themselves on to the register will be at any rate very considerably mitigated by the regulations, of the Board of Education.

The next part of the Bill which I will touch on briefly deals with Wales. That probably is a matter which is likely to be considered in full when the Committee stage is reached; but I may just say this, that I believe all parties in Wales are at any rate agreed as to the principle of the creation of some central council for education.

A RIGHT REV. PRELATE

No, no.

THE EARL OF CREWE

I will not put it quite as high as that if right rev. Prelates object. I will say that there is a large measure of agreement among people of very different schools of thought in favour of the formation of a central council of education for Wales.

EARL CAWDOR

Not such a council as is proposed by the Bill

THE EARL OF CREWE

I understand that. I was speaking as to a general agreement on the principle; and I think it will be generally agreed that if Wales wants a council the admirable manner in which the Welsh Intermediate Education Act has been carried out by the Joint Committees and by the Central Board makes it almost imperative that we should do what we can to meet the wishes of that country. I am not going at all into the details. There is one striking fact with regard to this matte, that Wales apparently desires certain powers now vested in the Board of Education to be transferred to the Treasury. This is the first time in my recollection that I have ever heard any body of people, so to speak, "nestling up" To the Treasury, but that is a matter for Wales itself to decide.

The remaining clauses of the Bill are such as I think would be more conveniently dealt with in Committee. My task is therefore at an end, and I feel I must apologise to your Lordships for having detained you at such unconscionable length. The nature of the subject made it exceedingly difficult for me to deal with it at all briefly. During the last six months it has been my duty to study so far as I could everything that has been written or said on this subject, and I do not know that any utterances of any very great importance have escaped me. Nineteen-twentieths of what has been said and written on this subject has dealt with some aspect or other of the religious difficulty. I confess that all through my uppermost thought has been this—it only all the energy, all the passion, and all the research which have produced such a volume of emotional rhetoric and such a museum of elaborate argument could have been, and now could be, applied to the real advancement of education in this country! This religious difficulty has swamped everything, or almost everything. What was originally the second part of our Bill, dealing no doubt with a somewhat controversial, but an exceedingly important question—that of endowments—had to be sacrificed owing to the lapse of Parliamentary time, and is one of the victims of the religious question

I ask, my Lords, is it not possible that this long strife can somehow be made to cease? In a very few days your Lordships are going to disperse to your homes at a delightful season of the year. Possibly some of you may be able to spare time from more attractive pursuits to consider this thorny question and to reflect what an immense gain to the nation would be a declaration of peace after this more than thirty years religious war. I know very well that there are some provisions in this measure which your Lordships are disposed to condemn. May I ask this, not merely that you should refrain from condemning without full knowledge of what is actually proposed, for I am sure your Lordships will not do that, but also that you will refrain from condemning without very-anxious consideration of all the possible alternatives. Some of those alternatives-seem at first most attractive, but we, too, my Lords, have had to consider them and sometimes very reluctantly have had to reject them because in our opinion they were utterly incompatible with a final settlement of this question. If your Lordships will give the subject full consideration in that spirit, I believe that you will admit that this measure represents an honest and a not altogether unsuccessful effort, seriously designed and seriously carried out, towards a just solution of this most baffling and intricate problem.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Earl of Crewe.)

THE MARQUESS OP LONDONDERRY

My Lords, the noble Earl who has just sat down, and who has so lucidly introduced this complicated matter, asked for your Lordships' sympathy in the difficult task he was undertaking. I can assure my noble friend that if there is one Member of your Lordships' House who can sympathise with him in that appeal it is myself, for I performed a similar duty when in office on more than one occasion.

The noble Earl has dealt fully with a great number of the clauses of the Bill. We on this side of the House all understand that Clause 1, giving complete popular control, is the hinge on which the whole Bill hangs, and in the course of his opening remarks my noble friend stated that that was the opinion of himself and his colleagues. I regard that clause as the keystone of the measure, which, in my opinion, absolutely destroys the denominational schools from the point of view of denominational education, and therefore is an attack upon the Established Church of this country. The noble Earl went on to say that he was convinced that he had the people of the country at his back in the line which he and his Government are taking. I think he stated that if anyone had announced at a meeting in the country that he was opposed to the ratepayers having popular control in the matter of education that man would be promptly escorted to the railway station.

*THE EARL OF CREWE

I was speaking of Parliamentary candidates.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

I agree entirely with what the noble Earl said. I believe that the people of this country are in favour of public control in elementary schools, but when they declared that as their opinion they did not anticipate that the chief measure of the session would have for its object the endowment of Nonconformity at the expense of the whole community, especially of the Church of England, the abolition of Church influence in Church schools, and that the Bill would be a stepping-stone towards the disestablishment of the Church of England. There is no doubt that the ratepayers fully anticipated that there would be additional representation on the boards of management of non-provided schools, but I venture to say they never thought for one moment that the Government were going, by one stroke of the pen, to abolish the 14,000 voluntary schools which have done such spendid educational work for generations past.

What did the people of this country i form their opinions upon in this matter previous to the general election? They formed those opinions on the various speeches made by the President of the Board of Education, Mr. Birrell. In one speech Mr. Birrell said— Not only was be desirous that there should be Christian education in all schools, but he was also anxious that there should be facilities given, if they could be arranged on proper terms, whereby all denominations would have the opportunity of instructing children who attended the schools in what they believed to be their true religion. On another occasion Mr. Birrell declared that— He hoped it would be possible to have in the public elementary schools in this country simple religious teaching for those who were content with it, and also to give facilities that those people who wanted more definite dogmatic instruction should have it so that their children might enjoy the benefits of it. What did Mr. Birrell mean by that? He undoubtedly meant that where Cowper-Temple teaching was required it should be given, but where extra religious instruction was desired it should also be given. Therefore, if any man date on the subject was given by the country at the general election it was on the programme set out by the Minister for Education, and was in favour of religious teaching.

Much allusion has been made to the Act of l902. It has been naturally criticised; but let me say at once, as one who was to a great extent responsible for that measure, that the Act of 1902 destroyed nothing. I may be told by my noble friend opposite that it destroyed the school boards, but if my noble friend will carry his mind back to 1870 he will remember that the school boards were only set up as a last alternative because there were no local authorities. The Act of 1902 destroyed nothing; but, on the contrary, it was a constructive and educational measure. I challenge the noble Lord opposite to show me any provision in this Bill which by any stretch I of imagination can justify its being called an Education Bill. It is a Bill to destroy religious education; there is nothing in it to benefit the general education of the country. The Act of 1902 co-ordinated all grades of education under one head, and under the system set up education is steadily and gradually improving. I have myself been to a great number of the big towns in the country, and not only do I find the Act working smoothly and well, but it is praised by all classes of the community. I know that in some of the rural districts there is annoyance at having to pay a rate which they did not have to pay before, but I cannot see that there, will be any reduction under this Bill.

The system on which provided and non-provided schools have been working side by side since the year 1870, and as the Act of that year intended them to work, has been entirely to the benefit of the education of the country. The atmosphere of religion in the denominational schools has permeated the whole district in which those schools are situated, and this is bound to have had beneficial results; and, owing to its being necessary for the non-provided schools to be as efficient as the provided schools secular education has been kept up to the same high standard. Therefore I am at a loss to know how it can be in the interest of education to strike this blow at the great work done by voluntary schools. I do not think the country realises what it owes to Church or voluntary schools. Many years ago, when there were no other schools of any sort or kind, the sole education of the country was provided by these schools. Children of Nonconformists took every advantage of the educational facilities thereby offered, and I believe the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade has admitted having received his elementary education in a voluntary school in Wales. The people who now denounce these schools were not above taking advantage of them.

I regretted to hear the sneers which the noble Earl cast upon the reason why these schools were provided and kept up. He seemed to insinuate that they were provided for pecuniary reasons in order to keep down the rates. I repudiate that suggestion entirely. The supporters of these schools have made sacrifices for their maintenance out of love for religion and education. I could quote to your Lordships case after case where clergymen have devoted the whole of their incomes to the support of these schools on behalf of religious education. The landed interest, too, has supported these schools, because landlords have believed in them and wished the children of their tenants to benefit by the religious education imparted. To hear our political opponents talk, one would imagine that the voluntary schools as they now exist were under the absolute control of the managers. Anyone who has studied this question knows that that is not the case. The local authority has absolute control over each and every one of them, with the exception of the very short time in the morning which is devoted to religious instruction and with regard to the selection of the teacher, but they have the power of veto where they consider the teacher is not competent to give secular education.

I agree entirely with the cry for popular control. The ratepayers of the country should have the control of expenditure out of the rates, but apparently it is considered that the only people who pay rates are Nonconformists. There has not been a religious census for many years past, and consequently it is impossible to draw a distinct line as to the sums paid by the various denominations, but my own conviction is that if the rates paid for education could be earmarked it would be found that supporters of voluntary schools pay an amount sufficient for the maintenance of their schools, and yet, while paying for Cowper-Temple teaching in provided schools, they are not to be allowed their own denominational teaching. The noble Earl has told us that this is an undenominational Bill. He has reiterated the statement of the Prime Minister that— This is an undenominational Bill setting up an undenominational system, and we must regard it in that light. The noble Earl went at some length into what he described as concessions and facilities. The so-called concessions and facilities, which have been so much dwelt upon, are in my opinion illusory.

I give the President of the Board of Education credit for an intention to deal fairly with the denominational schools. I have read his speeches both before he was Minister for Education and since, and I am convinced that in his heart of hearts he would wish to do justice to those who hold the views I have expressed; hut I consider that Mr. Birrell is in the unfortunate position of the dog that is wagged by the tail. It looks as if, whenever he has made a concession, he has been immediately taken to task by colleagues in the Cabinet and a section of his supporters in another place, the result being that his concession has been instantly hedged in and guarded by conditions which make it worthless. I give Mr. Birrell credit for being an extremely able man, and I should therefore like to know whether he gives these concessions because he knows they are illusory or because he thinks they will be of value.

In this Bill plausible facilities are undoubtedly given for religious teaching, but they are hampered by the conditions as to the time when it shall be given and the exclusion of the regular teacher. It is the regular teacher who best knows the way to the heart of the child, and on this point I would refer the noble Earl to a speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education. In that speech Mr. Lough emphasised the importance of having the religious education given by trained and regular teachers because they knew the way to the child's mind better than did anyone else. In those circumstances I should like to ask what are the reasons which persuaded His Majesty's Government to refuse to allow the child to be taught by the teacher who their own Parliamentary Secretary tells us is the person best qualified to give that teaching. I have myself a large school at Seaham in which there are 1,139 boys, girls, and infants, and thirty-three teachers. I would ask the noble Earl, who is going to do the work of those 33 teachers on the days in the week allotted to religious education? The clergyman and two curates cannot be asked to do it all in the allotted days, and I want to know how outsiders are to be got in the schools in the time.

*THE EARL OF CREWE

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Marquess, but I should like to ask, are these all Church children?

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

They represent all denominations except Roman Catholic, but they have gloried in the fact that they have had this instruction at the hands of the thirty-three teachers to whom I have referred. That system has gone on to the entire satisfaction of the parents, and there has hardly been a withdrawal of a child from that school. In the Bill you maintain that there shall be no qualification in the future for teachers. I did not quite follow what the noble Earl said, with regard to the position of teachers, and whether they would, be liable to dismissal.

*THE EARL OF CREWE

They are not liable to dismissal. I was speaking of new teachers being engaged, and I said they would not be subjected at the time of their engagement to any test whatever as to their religious opinions, neither would they be subject to any obligation to attend or abstain from attending any place of worship or Sunday School or anything of the kind. But afterwards, if they agreed to undertake religious instruction, it might then be ascertained if they were qualified to give it. If they were obviously disqualified the local authority would have to find somebody else.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

I do not know how the noble Earl reconciles that with his Bill. I understood that all tests and qualifications were to be abolished.

*THE EARL OF CREWE

Tests, but not qualifications.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

I do not understand the fine distinctions which are drawn between tests and qualifications. If you have a teacher to teach arithmetic you insist on his being qualified to give that instruction, but, according to the noble Earl, those responsible for the giving of religious instruction are not to be compelled to possess any qualification at all.

*THE EARL OF CREWE

I am sorry again to have to interrupt the noble Marquess. No question is to be asked when the teacher is engaged as to his religious opinions, but if engaged he is asked whether he is willing to give religious instruction.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

Yes, but you have not the slightest idea whether he is qualified to give it or not. If a teacher is to teach anything well he must thoroughly believe in it himself. The President of the Board of Education admitted, on the Third Reading, the importance of religious teaching being given by a well-trained teacher. He said— I agree with the Archbishop of Canterbury that religious instruction is very badly given I have heard it given again and again in Board schools and in Church schools, and I have very seldom heard it given otherwise than badly. That is a criticism, not of the system, but of teacher. A well-trained teacher is the thing we want. Yet it is the well-trained teacher you propose under this Bill to turn on one side. That is a point on which I lay great stress. I hope that in the recess those responsible for the Bill will ponder over the words of the late Archbishop of Canterbury, that— the efficiency of religious teaching depends on the earnestness of the conviction of the teacher. The facilities, as they are called, are entirely at the discretion of the local authority. The word "may" Instead of "shall" comes in frequently, and, owing to the fact of its being permissive, Clause 3 holds out hopes that cannot, by the widest stretch of imagination, be regarded as certainties.

*THE EARL OF CREWE

In Clause 3 the facilities are obligatory if the school is taken.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

Yes, but only if it is taken. I know that in the House of Commons an endeavour was made to obtain an appeal to the Board of Education, but Mr. Birrell refused to accept that because of the wish of the local authorities to be all powerful. Therefore, what is the position of these schools if the local authorities are hostile to the granting of facilities for denominational teaching?

I now come to Clause 4, which, with the exception of Clause 1, is the most important Clause in the Bill. Let me first of all consider what was the intention of the Government in introducing that clause. I think it is notorious that it was introduced in order to secure the Roman Catholic vote, and, secondly —and this was by no means its least object—to retain the services of the noble Marquess the Leader of your Lordships' House. It must have been intended to cut out the Church schools. That must have been in the minds of those who drafted the clause, because it is confined to urban districts of over 5,000 inhabitants, and His Majesty's Government know full well that the great majority of voluntary schools are in the rural districts and could not possibly come under this clause. To my mind, the clause will be found impossible in its working. The conditions to be fulfilled before facilities are granted are almost incapable of fulfilment, even within the areas to which the clause applies. What is the explanation of the Roman Catholics in another place voting so constantly against the Government on this? It is because they are finding out that the clause will not benefit them, for the simple reason that in nearly all Roman Catholic schools there are a large number of children of other denominations. The denomination that will be benefited is that of the Jews. I contend that it will be impossible to get four-fifths of the parents to vote as the Bill requires. But there is a further restriction imposed, viz., that there shall be no facilities given unless there is alternative accommodation for the children of parents who do not desire facilities. Thus there might be a school of 100 children the parents of ninty-nine of whom desire facilities. If there were not another accessible school for the remaining one child facilities could not be granted. The facilities clause is, in fact, utterly useless.

Then we come to another very important provision — the Council for Wales. I object to separate treatment for Wales on constitutional grounds. I decline to agree to a proposal for what I may call Home Rule all round. There is no more reason why this step should be taken in regard to Wales than in regard to Durham, the Ridings of Yorkshire, and every thickly populated part of the country; and I must deny entirely a statement of the noble Earl opposite that all parties in Wales are agreed on the principle of this proposal. I do not think that right rev. Prelates opposite connected with Wales will contradict me when I say that there are a large number of people in Wales who will not accept that principle. This is a question which was scarcely discussed in the House of Commons. The Government did not seem to know their own minds one day from another, and proposal after proposal was submitted. I think this is a point which will have to be carefully considered when the Committee stage of the Bill is taken. I was Minister for Education when we had to put into force the Defaulting Authorities Act, and if we had not put that Act into force 205 voluntary school teachers in Montgomeryshire alone would not have had their salaries, nor would the school have been provided with coal or light. If this is the treatment which these unfortunate teachers received then, what will be their chance of fair and just treatment in the future?

Then the financial proposals of the Bill appear never to have been thought out. We are told that £1,000,000 is to be given annually for the purpose of the Bill, chiefly, I believe, for the purpose of taking over or paying rent for what are called transferred schools. When I read that the sum was to be £1,000,000 I puzzled my brain as to how that amount had been arrived at. It would have been easy to ascertain the number of schools to be taken, and the number of children attending them, and to have struck an average of so much per child; but to my amazement the only reason given for fixing £1,000,000 was that it was all the Chancellor of the Exchequer could spare. There is not much finance about that. Mr. Asquith stated in another place that he considered the clause for medical inspection and the clause for delegation the two most important clauses in the Bill. That shows the feeling of His Majesty's Government. Is the question of religious teaching to be considered of no importance at all? Apparently that is so, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed his opinion that these were the only two clauses of importance.

I may be asked why, if I hold these views so strongly, I do not move the rejection of the Bill. If I had done that it would have amounted to a declaration that the Act of 1902 was perfect. No Bill that has ever passed through Parliament can be considered a perfect Bill, and still less so when it is built upon the foundation of another imperfect measure like the Act of 1870. Therefore, I am ready to allow that there is room for improvement in our educational system. The Second Reading of the Bill should be allowed so that it may be carefully considered clause by clause and line by line. In this House there is no closure, and I hope your Lordships will take full advantage of that fact and insist on closely examining the details of the Bill. I do not know who understands the Bill. I doubt whether His Majesty's Ministers do, for their speeches in another place are of an extraordinarily contradictory character. Is it likely then that the ordinary man in the country can understand it? The rapidity with which this measure has been rushed through the House of Commons has aroused the indignation of even my noble friend opposite, Lord Stanley of Alderley, who is a strong supporter of His Majesty's Government. Even Lord Stanley of Alderley declared that Government Amendments had been inserted in the Bill quite unconsidered.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY

I was only referring to one particular Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

These matters, at any rate, should be fully considered, and I quote my noble friend as having said that an Amendment to one important clause in the Bill had been dealt with in a most unsatisfactory manner. What is, after all, the chief object of this measure? It is to abolish denominational schools and denominational teaching, and it is a direct attack therefore, on the Church to which we are proud to belong. I hope your Lordships and the people in the country will not go away thinking that if this Bill is carried it will do no harm to the Church. It is a stepping-stone to the disestablishment of the Church, and I think it is well that the people of the country should understand that. I am one of those who regard this as a very grave question. We are all working for one end—to inculcate in the rising generation of this country those principles which we Churchmen hold so dear. We are convinced that the teaching we have given has been conducive to the welfare, happiness, and prosperity of our people, and we desire that nothing should be done to impair it.

*THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

My Lords, we have heard the case for the Bill to which you are asked to give a Second Reading set before us with clearness and in large measure with a fairness which I think left nothing to be desired. We have had from the front Bench opposite weighty criticisms about some of its details and a good many of its principles. I will try not to go over again the ground which has already been well trodden. I approach the question perhaps from a somewhat different standpoint. I should like to say at the outset that some of us feel on this subject a peculiar difficulty in speaking adequately in Parliament, because the matter concerns so closely the deeper and more sacred parts of life as to make it not always easy to express in a public speech the innermost reality of what one feels about it all. No one can have had such opportunities as I have had during the last few months of being in touch day by day with some of the best of the teachers in our schools without finding how for them at least the whole of this question is swept outside the category of social or political controversy and is felt by them to involve interests which are too sacred and too deep for words.

I want first to look at the Bill in its setting in the history of the last half-century or more. When we are dealing with a highly controversial question, and want to be on our guard against unconscious prejudice or distorting bias, it is well sometimes to stand back a little from the subject and to look at the events as they will appear to the cool, unemotional historian who may be telling the story when this century is drawing to a close. The more faithfully and the more competently that we can do this the more likely shall we be to see things in their true balance and proportion, and to judge of the relation which each great episode bears to the rest. For the story of education during the last hundred years in England groups itself round certain great episodes and certain great men. Some elements of the controversy —some vehement outbursts of opinion— which seemed at the time likely to endure have proved to be evanescent. To take a single example, drawn from a period within the lifetime of many who are here, and within the political recollection, I suppose, of a few of our veterans. In 1847 there was a great Parliamentary duel between Macaulay and John Bright. Macaulay vainly endeavoured to convince Mr. Bright that it was a good thing that the State should take some responsibility for the education of the people. Mr. Bright remained entirely unconvinced, and set his views forth in a memorable speech. Nobody holds those views now, and I only refer to the matter as a curious object lesson. When we remember that his were the opinions held by a vigorous section of a great Party within recent times, it should make us a little cautious as to what is colloquially called "cocksureness" about the permanent validity and weight of some political nostrum or some popular cry.

The really curious fact in that long story is that on almost every occasion of widespread controversy the practical difficulty has ultimately turned, as it turns to-day, mainly on the religious question. The Nonconformist for a whole century has asked, when any large educational question has been raised, whether the change would not increase and consolidate the power and status of the National Church. Churchmen on the other hand have asked whether the particular change under discussion would not prevent them from discharging a responsibility which they were not only able and willing, but absolutely bound, to discharge for the good of the nation as a whole. It is that particular difficulty which has again and again divided men when they might, it would seem, have almost come together upon everything else. It was that which exactly a century ago sundered these two pioneers of education—good men both of them, but angular and eccentric—Andrew Bell and Joseph Lancaster. It was that which wrecked the statesmanlike and far-seeing Bill of Lord Brougham in 1820; it was that which led, in part at least, to the opposition which the Manchester school gave to the education grants in the '30's and '40's; it was that which hampered the revised Code in 1861; it was that which forced a change of front upon Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Forster in 1870; it was that which destroyed the Bill of the late Conservative Government in 1896; it was that which, in some counties at least, has made the Act of 1902 drag its wheels very heavily. My Lords, that is, in one sense, a humiliating confession, and perhaps especially so when it is made by an ecclesiastic. Is it wonderful, one asks, that, this being so, we should have heard from time to time in recent years the cry—"Sweep away the whole thing that causes so much strife where strife is unnecessary, and let us have in our schools secular teaching only?" Considering the impatience and irritability of human nature one understands without difficulty why such a thought should find wide expression. And yet, my Lords, it only needs a clear and insistent gaze into the facts to satisfy us how fallacious the cry is. The actual facts, surely, are these. Every sort of people in the controversies of those hundred years who have combined practical experience of our schools with real enthusiasm about elementary education are agreed in saying that it does matter beyond words for the forming of character in the elementary schools of the nation that they should be carried on upon a basis of religious teaching, or rather, that that golden thread should be woven through and through the web which they construct. The very importance which everybody attaches to the manner in which the thing is to be done is of itself very striking evidence as to the necessity which they feel that it should be done. What they differ about is the question; On what lines and by what men and women is that golden thread to be inwrought? Could anything be more fatuous than to say, in a moment of impatience, that the proper way to solve the perplexity is to sweep the whole thing aside?

Take a humble parallel. I believe it is agreed by almost everybody that for little children a milk diet is essential, and I am further told that at this moment there are, in connection with the great Poor Law schools of the kingdom, groups of medical men divided into factions as to whether that milk should be sterilised, boiled, or given in its natural state. What should we think of the reformer who was to argue that, having regard to these controversies, it would be better that no milk should be given at all? The analogy is not a very profound or close one, but it seems to me that it holds water for our purpose. The instinct of the English people is sound and true that their children should be Christianly brought up at school as well as at home. They are ready to trust the teacher pretty largely as to the nature of that instruction and the manner in which it is to be given, but they do want the religion taught to be real. Many of us clergy, my Lords, who have spent years in ministering to the sick and whole among the working class population, are familiar with the parent's frank declaration. "I have not made an over good use of my own life. I wish I had my school days over again, but at least I do want my boy, my girl to get help for living better than I have done." Yes, my Lords, people do care very much about religious teaching, not merely in the vague way that it is sometimes put, that the children of a Christian nation ought to receive a Christian upbringing, but as something definite and real which they believe will make a difference to their children's lives. Any policy which ousts religious teaching from our schools is a policy, as it seems to me, born of impatience and despair. They are ill-omened parents, and their progeny is likely to be noxious and deformed.

But to return, to the endeavours which the last fifty years have seen to find some solution of the problem. Of course, before 1870, the difficulty of the subject, though real, was far less complex than it is now. The mass of educational supply throughout the country was purely voluntary. The very first grant made by Government was only about seventy years ago, and was absolutely trifling in amount. Even in much later days the proportion of voluntary effort to the aid that came from the State was enormous, the State's contribution being for many years comparatively trifling.

But in 1870 a far-reaching and beneficent endeavour was made to enlarge and strengthen our educational system as a whole. It was made on great lines by thoughtful statesmen, who looked at the matter all round. Three men were prominent in the work—Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Forster, and the noble Marquess who so worthily presides over the House to-day, and who was then responsible for bringing forward that Bill in your Lordships' House. I am not going into the merits of the Bill of 1870. I regard it as a really great and wise conception, and I am glad to think that on that, though there have been strange things said to the contrary in some quarters, most people are entirely agreed. I am not often in agreement on this particular kind of subject with a very prominent man in English life today, Dr. Clifford, but I find he says— [The Act of 1870] is the truest ideal of State education for its young citizens which the nation has yet conceived, and the most just and beneficent legislation Parliament has framed to actualise it. It is the high watermark of our civilisation. It is the sign of the dawn of a new educational era; 1870 is in fact the most fruitful year of the 19th century. If that be so, it is well worth our while to see what was the essential character of the main political provision, using the expression in the large sense of the word, which belonged to that piece of legislation. The most marked feature in it, that which gave rise to controversy at the time, but was adhered to throughout by the statesmen who were in charge of it, was that it was a Bill to supplement and encourage, not to supplant, the denominational system of the country. Again and again Mr. Gladstone warned the House of Commons not to belittle, not to ignore, not to waste what he called our noblest educational asset, that which came from a religious impulse and religious zeal. I quote some words of his from the debates of 1870— As Christianity, since it came into the world, has given a new character to secular philanthropy, so religious zeal has created in this country especially, an amount of anxiety never before exhibited for the promotion of a sound secular education. And again— In this matter of education, it is a great mistake and error, in our view, to think that secular education given by a State machinery is per se better and more valuable than the same education given by machinery voluntary in its character. Setting aside that which is abstractedly desirable, I think we are justified in feeling that this enormous power which exists in the country ought to be turned to account. And if any one doubts that that was not merely an element in the Bill, but was the very backbone of the policy that was then taken in hand, let him look, not at the rhetorical words spoken in the debates of that year, but at what was said a little later by its author, when the Bill was at work and people had had time to see and understand its provisions and their meaning. Three years after the Bill was passed, and when its character could be fairly judged, Mr. Bright, in a great speech at Birmingham, denounced the Education Bill passed by the Government of which he, though somewhat of an invalid at the time, had been a member. He used these words— It was a Bill to encourage denominational education, and, where that was impossible, to establish board schools. It ought, in my opinion, to have been a Bill to establish board schools, and to offer inducements to those who were connected with denominational schools to bring them under the control of the school board. Thereupon Mr. Forster reminded Mr. Bright that, before the introduction of the Bill, its character had been clearly explained to all the Cabinet, including Mr. Bright. He enclosed the Memorandum then circulated, to recall, as he said, to Mr. Bright's memory— That it is in fact founded on that principle to which you now object—namely, that our object should be to supplement the present voluntary system; to enforce compulsory school provision, if and where necessary, but not otherwise; to give time, after educational destitution is proved, for bad schools to be improved, or new schools to be erected under the existing voluntary system. Mr. Bright, in his reply, admits that he had forgotten the Memorandum, and, speaking of the new departure, says — This great concession, unexpected and, as I think, wholly evil, has had the effect of fastening on the country the old system. I quote those words, because they show how everybody, friend and foe alike, realised the basis and character of the policy adopted and established. From first to last, during the debates there ran a similar challenge to the friends of denominational schools to use their opportunity and, on the strength of that Parliamentary encouragement, to build new schools and thus to strengthen their systems. It is quite easy to quote Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Forster to that effect, but I should prefer to quote, in his presence, and to his honour, the words of the noble Marquess, the Lord Privy Seal. Speaking in this House on its Second Reading, he said— The Bill proposes to maintain all existing schools at present in receipt of Government aid on their present footing. We desire that they should continue and extend, and needlessly to destroy one of them would be to inflict a great mischief. And, again— In considering the educational wants of a school district, however, we distinctly contemplate the taking into account not merely of existing schools, but of those which are about to be supplied bona fide for the benefit of the district. On this point your Lordships will read Clause 8 in connection with Clause 10, and you will see that the friends of voluntary education in each district will have an opportunity of supplying within a reasonable time, if they can, the deficient education … I think that is a fair and ample warning to the friends of voluntary education; and, considering the demands of the children for education, a fair and ample opportunity of supplying it is thus afforded. Those words show the basis, or one of the bases, upon which our contention rests, that schools built by voluntary contributions during the years which followed 1870 acquired what I should call an absolute claim, as a mere question of fairness and honour, not to have their distinctive character taken away whatever might be the provision made for preserving it—and there are many ways in which that can be done—unless the schools can be shown, what it is not even contended or attempted to show, to have wholly failed to carry on effectively and for the general good the work which they undertook to do.

Here was the friendly challenge of the Liberal Government of the day to the Church and other denominations to take the matter in hand and do their best, and what was the response? The Church and other bodies, to use a colloquial expression, "buckled to," and in the course of the years which followed they built 5,000 new schools at a cost of some £9,000,000, which it would have been quite easy to throw on the rates. I will give the figures more exactly. The number of Church schools under inspection was, in 1870, about 6,900. In 1889 it was about 11,800, an increase of 4,900. Or, if you express it in terms of school places, the figures in 1870 were 1,411,000, and in 1889 2,621,000 school places, an increase of over 1,200,000 school places as the result of the voluntary contributions which had been raised in that time. All these schools were built in answer to the challenge of the noble Marquess who is now Lord Privy Seal. At the lowest estimate the Church of England expended, in order to provide these places, nine and a half millions of money, quite apart from the Parliamentary grants, the amount of which was trifling compared with the rest. But in the figures I give that amount is not reckoned at all.

It has been very courteously and very truly said to-night by the Lord President of the Council that we must not claim all that as a result of Church enthusiasm; that a very large sum was subscribed to keep out school boards, with their heavy rates and that some of it was given by people who did not care a straw about religious education. I am quite prepared to admit that in a great many cases large sums of money were given by trustees, and corporations and by railway companies and by other bodies which did not profess to look at the religious instruction side of the question, but who wanted to avert a school board rate. I think it would be most deceptive to deny that there has been a considerable amount of money given in that way for the building and maintenance of voluntary schools, but, when you have deducted all the money that can on the highest estimate be ascribed to such an origin, there remains a vast sum which had a distinctly religious origin and purpose. It was given in order to maintain in districts where the people wanted it a type of school which the parents knew would give that personal relationship which springs so largely from voluntary effort, especially when that voluntary effort is linked in with other kinds of work going on in the parish. The donors knew further that their gifts would secure the real type of religious teaching and religious teacher which they regarded, as so important to the highest interests of the school or rather of the children attending it.

But I would rather stand on ground which is in no sense open to that challenge. Take the towns in which rates were being levied and in which subscribers to voluntary schools were also themselves paying rates, or take what has been done in the counties since the passing of the Act of 1902, which rated the country all round. I have here the figures for three dioceses taken absolutely at random, and I find that since "the appointed day" under the Act of 1902 the diocese of Canterbury has spent £50,000, Oxford £57,000, and Winchester £105,000 either on the building of new schools or on the enlargement and improvement of existing schools. It surely is almost impossible to say that these schools can be taken over and entirely transformed in their character without an absolute violation of the whole traditions of English public security and of English public honour. Perhaps I should plead guilty to the fact that I have again and again urged such contributions and assured the donors that their gifts were quite safe, inasmuch as no Parliament and no Government could possibly alienate that money, given freely within the last few years, for a purpose which every Government has encouraged and applauded.

I dare say I shall be told in this debate that nobody thinks of confiscating and destroying these schools, but presently I shall show your Lordships how, if this change comes about, there will be something more than transformation—there will be an absolute end of any true preservation of the principles for which this money was given and this effort made. I beg you to understand clearly that I am not claiming any sacred inviolability for everything contained in every trust. I do not object to modification or change in these matters if there is good cause shown, and if the conditions are fair; but if it means a bouleversement of what has been done and the scattering to the winds of money which has been given, and if this is deliberately done in order to bring about just those conditions which were expressly deprecated by the donors and which it was hoped would be averted by that money being given, I think pause is necessary before we go forward in a course so contrary to the best traditions of English honour.

In a question such as this, it is sometimes useful to leave generalities alone and to give attention to some concrete instance, not of course because it is unique, but because it is a specimen of what is happening in greater or less degree all over England.

I will take an example from a London parish close to which I resided when I was Bishop of Rochester. I refer to the parish of St. John, Kennington, which contains one of the very poorest bits of London, one of those regions which are marked with special blackness in Mr. Charles Booth's statistical maps. In or around the parish there are several very large and flourishing board schools, to whose excellence I am glad to bear warm testimony, and also two other schools, St.John's and St. Michael's, one attached to the parish church and the other to a mission church. What has the building of those two schools cost the donors, who, please remember, were people who were already being heavily rated for the Board Schools? They have spent on St. John's site and buildings, £14,780, and have just intimated to the county council their readiness to spend £1,200 more to make good certain deficiencies pointed out by the county council, provided they have some security against the alienation of their gifts. They have in addition to the £14,780, also spent on maintenance £13,416. On St. Michael's there has been spent £3,000 on buildings and £7,000 on maintenance, or, altogether on the two schools, £38, 196. Now notice please that all this has been spent by people who have been paying School Board rates all the while, spent in order that they might secure something they very much cared for. What is going to happen in regard to these schools? These two schools are immensely popular and have excellent Government Reports. A great many parents in that poor region desire their children to go to them rather than to the excellent board schools which stand close by, and this not perhaps because of their denominational teaching so much as because of their whole tone, character and spirit. One asks wonderingly: Who are the aggrieved people if these schools go on as they are? Every parent has a board school at hand if he prefers it. Why is he to be debarred from having this sort of school if he likes it better, and if we are willing and able to supply it? I may be told the four-fifths clause will come in here and virtually enable the school to go on as it is. I do not think so, and I will show in a few moments what will happen if this measure becomes law. I was going to give you similar details about another school—an East London school this time. But perhaps I should weary you by a repetition of such details. If any one will inquire for himself as to the schools of St. John at Hackney, rebuilt within the last few years at the cost of some £10,000, he will learn what devotion and self-sacrifice can do in a cause for which people really care.

Let me here say one general word. It is sometimes claimed that a change has come about because of the falling off of voluntary subscriptions. That is a most fallacious statement. Whenever you hear that subscriptions have fallen off it is always the percentage that is meant, as compared with the enormously increased expenditure. People forget that the whole cost of living and of education has increased so gigantically. Instead of having fallen off, voluntary subscriptions have doubled. In 1870 the subscriptions for the maintenance of voluntary schools were only £329,000; they rose in 1880 to £587,000; and in 1901 they had risen to £678,000. And yet it is quite true that the percentage these voluntary subcriptions bear to the whole cost of education works out at a good deal less than in 1870, because the cost of everything has risen so normously. What the Government have to show in order to justify the Bill on that score is, not that there is a falling off in the percentage of income from voluntary subcrib