Housing Bill

Mr. Speaker

I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.

The Minister for Housing and Planning (Keith Hill)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. The Bill was published on 8 December. It will help to create a fairer and better housing market and to protect the most vulnerable in housing. Together with other Government measures on housing and planning, it will make a major contribution to achieving the aims of the sustainable communities plan. The Bill is big in vision, scope and size. In that respect, it has similarities to the Housing Act 1996, which was taken through Parliament by the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry). I take this opportunity to extend my personal welcome to the right hon. Gentleman in his new role as shadow Secretary of State for local and devolved government affairs.

Early last year, my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister set out the Government's vision for sustainable communities. In that statement, he recognised candidly that for more than 30 years, all Governments had failed to meet housing need. In particular, Government investment in housing declined significantly during the 1990s, leading to an increase in social housing disrepair compared with the rest of the housing stock. As a consequence, in 1997, the Government inherited a colossal backlog of £19 billion in social housing repairs, and a declining number of newly built homes. More than 2 million homes in the social sector were substandard, and there were similar problems in the private sector.

Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con)

Why are local authorities such as New Forest district council not being allowed to spend their housing budget on desperately needed new houses, but are required by the Minister's imposed policy to deploy that budget on repairs, despite the fact that their stock is in good condition? That policy might be appropriate to northern metropolitan boroughs with a history of neglect, but it is not in the south-east. Will he be more flexible?

Keith Hill

The hon. Gentleman ought to be aware that opportunities for the new build of social housing are afforded by funding streams other than those through local authorities. As I shall explain, I make no apology for focusing the spending of a local authority on significant housing disrepair where that remains.

We responded to the challenge of disrepair with large-scale additional resources. We trebled council funding for homes from £750 million in 1997 to about £2.5 532 billion this year. Choices had to be made—we could not deal with everything at once—so in 1998 the new Government made tackling disrepair our top priority. We did so because we believed that it would benefit the greatest number of people and would make the biggest difference most quickly. It also prevented the further loss of stock. Accordingly, we introduced the decent homes standard for homes that are properly weather-proofed with central heating and modern bathrooms and kitchens. The approach is now showing results.

This year, we shall have reduced the number of substandard homes by about 1 million since 1997. We are making good progress and we aim to ensure that all social housing tenants will enjoy the decent homes standards by 2010. In other words, we shall have completed the huge task of bringing nearly 2£5 million substandard homes up to the decent homes standard by that date.

Funding for new social housing, through the Housing Corporation's approved development programme, also declined through the 1990s. The spending review of 2000 reversed that decline. Investment in new social housing will increase still further, to about £5 billion, over the three years from 2003–04—double the level that we inherited in 1997.

Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)

I am glad to hear that the Government have plans to start building some houses in the future. How does the Minister account for the fact that in the last six years of the Conservative Government, we built an average of 31,274 houses per annum, while during the first six years of this Government, the figure was 18,000?

Keith Hill

The hon. Gentleman ought to bear in mind the fact that in that period, funding for social housing new build declined by half—a decline that we are now putting right. We took a clear decision that the priority needed to be dealing with the colossal £19 billion backlog of refurbishment and modernisation of social housing stock. We are now investing seriously in the building of new social housing, but there are problems, as I shall explain. There will always be a need for new houses everywhere, and we want that need to be met, but new build housing on the largest scale is required only in certain parts of the country.

That is why the Housing Corporation's approved development programme is increasingly targeted at the areas that need it most: London and the south-east. I have to tell the House, and the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray), that the blunt truth is that those areas are also the areas of highest cost generally and of mounting construction and land costs, which means that the number of housing units completed for any given input has tended to decline.

Nevertheless, we are resolved to accelerate new building where it is most needed. The sustainable communities plan, published in February 2003, announced the development of four growth areas in London and the wider south-east, which have the potential to deliver an extra 200,000 homes over the next 10 to 15 years. Affordable housing is a key part of that development.

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab)

The Minister will recognise, as I do, the enormous need for more social housing in London. Is he prepared to introduce legislation or amend the Bill to ensure that 50 per cent. of all developments are for social housing developments? Will he also prevent local authorities and public corporations from selling off existing buildings and land that could be used to meet the terrible housing crisis that many of poorest people in London face?

Keith Hill

I know that my hon. Friend has a long-standing and distinguished record for expressing concern about housing issues. I have to tell him that the Government have set out indicative guidelines on the proportion of social housing that we expect to be delivered in any major housing development. He will also be aware that for large-scale housing developments, the Mayor has laid down clear criteria that are, in most cases, being fulfilled. We are happy about that, but it is essentially a matter for local authorities and for local decision-making. We want to encourage local authorities to respond to the challenges in a way that best meets the needs of local communities.

I want to make some progress. The communities plan sets out the policies, resources and partnerships necessary to deliver a new approach to how and what we build—an approach that connects housing with transport, jobs, public services and improving the local environment. However, the communities plan goes wider than the particular challenges of the south-east: it represents a step change in our approach to development, in order to deliver decent affordable homes and a good quality local environment in all regions. It aims to tackle the challenges of rapid demographic and economic change, the legacy of poor health and conditions, serious housing shortages in areas of high demand, and the impact of housing abandonment in places, in the north and midlands.

We are continuing to find other ways of increasing housing supply and securing better value for money. For example, we are encouraging modern methods of construction and widening the scope of those who can receive Housing Corporation funding.

Keith Hill

I give way to my hon. Friend, whom I noticed first.

Ms Walley

On that point, does the Minister agree that the current research in north Staffordshire, which is about using the most up-to-date and sustainable construction methods, will be essential to deliver his agenda? Does he agree that Burslem urgently needs funding from Advantage West Midlands to construct a construction skills centre? There is a real fear that the money will not be available in this financial year. If it is not, it could undermine the Government's intention to have a new construction skills centre there as quickly as possible.

Keith Hill

I am delighted to hear about the commitment being made in my hon. Friend's locality 534 towards modern methods of construction. I know that there are major regeneration issues there. She mentioned Advantage West Midlands, which I am sure will have heard her observations—and of course, I undertake to look further into the matter myself.

Keith Hill

How can I resist the hon. Gentleman?

Mr. Steen

May I put the real problem to the Minister? The Deputy Prime Minister said that 3.75 million houses would be needed by 2011, but the former Conservative Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry), mentioned 4.25 million. We are not building that many houses. PPG3 said that they should be built on brownfield sites, but we are running out of them, so we have to build on greenfield sites, We are not building on greenfield sites, so the price of houses is going up as a result of a shortage. It is all a question of how we are going to build more houses. Until we build more houses, prices will not go down. If prices do not go down, we will not build more affordable houses unless the Government invest much more money. That is the problem.

Keith Hill

The hon. Gentleman presents a far-reaching and comprehensive analysis, much of which I agree with—but let me reassure him about one point: as he is aware, the Government have adopted a policy of "brownfield first", and we have set a target of 60 per cent. new build on brownfield sites in London and the wider south-east. That target has been exceeded considerably, the figure now standing at 75 per cent. We are therefore making very serious progress, but part and parcel of the solution to further build on brownfield sites is our commitment to greater density of build. That gives rise to separate issues in respect of higher and greater build density, and I am delighted to say that recent statistics show that progress is also being made in that direction.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Keith Hill

I am being inundated with requests to give way, but perhaps I can reassure Members on both sides of the House by pointing out that I have a lot more to say, and that there will be ample opportunity for me to give way and to listen to their remarks later. First, I should at least set out the Bill's context.

I was talking about the need to increase housing supply, a subject on which there is common ground on both sides of the House. I remind Members that it is for that purpose that we asked Kate Barker to review the issues underlying the lack of supply and responsiveness of housing in the UK. We welcomed her interim report and its analysis, and we look forward to her spring report.

We have achieved a great deal, but we do of course need to do more. That is why, in the next three years, we shall back the communities plan with a massive £22 billion worth of investment in housing and communities. That is why we are increasing the total resources devoted specifically to housing to £11 billion 535 by 2005–06—a 30 per cent. increase on last year's spend. And that is also why, over the next three years, we are committing at least £1 billion to key worker housing—more than three times the rate of spend in the current year—tackling low demand and transforming failing housing markets through nine pathfinder projects, backed by a £500 million market renewal fund. We have already announced the £125 million pathfinder scheme for east Manchester and Salford, and we expect to make more announcements shortly.

Mr. Jack

Does the Minister agree that the private sector—particularly smaller-scale private building companies—also has a contribution to make in helping to meet the objectives that he has clearly explained to the House? Is he aware that the way in which current housing policy is being applied, particularly in respect of the number of houses that can be built in the north-west, is inhibiting the contribution that those private builders can make to achieving his objectives? Can he assure me that he will look into that matter in the context of the Bill, and subsequently?

Keith Hill

I am listening to the right hon. Gentleman carefully and with interest, and I am happy to assure him that I will consider his assertions and endeavour to respond to him in due course.

In addition to our commitments in respect of new build of houses, key worker housing and renewing failing housing markets, we have extended the decent homes target to the private sector, and we expect to make steady progress in increasing the proportion of vulnerable households living in decent homes in the private sector. In order to sharpen our housing delivery mechanisms, we are targeting housing investment on regional and local priorities through the regional housing hoards, which we established to integrate housing with regional, economic and planning strategies.

Matthew Green (Ludlow) (LD)

The Minister has talked a lot about the need to increase the amount of social and affordable housing, and about some of the various things that the Government are doing. However, as we are discussing the Housing Bill, can he tell me which of its measures will actually increase the amount of such housing?

Keith Hill

We have proposals to encourage investment through the Housing Corporation in companies that can engage in that area, and we are certainly in the business of restoring to use many properties that have fallen into decay, which is a central purpose of the Bill.

We continue to look to the future. We welcome the Law Commission's work on tenure reform, and its report, which was published in November. We look forward to proposals for a draft Bill later this year, and we expect to build on that work to move forward on some of the important issues that will not be addressed by the Housing Bill, such as tenant deposit protection, which could fit well with the models of written agreement proposed by the commission.

Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister has been speaking for 15 minutes and has told us all the things that are not in the Bill. Is it not about time he told us what is in it?

Mr. Speaker

This is a Second Reading debate. If the Minister had been out of order, I would, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, have brought him to order.

Keith Hill

I am tempted to say, Mr. Speaker, that they do not like it up 'em. The Government have sought to turn round a record of housing decline and disaster—indeed, we are succeeding in doing so. I absolutely understand why the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) does not want to hear about our excellent record.

It is essential that we set the Bill's proposals in the context of our wider housing and regeneration policy. New build, regeneration and the modernisation of our social housing stock are vital, but so is the role of the private rented sector. We are committed to the promotion of quality and choice across all types of housing, as we set out clearly in our housing policy statement in December 2000, which was the first comprehensive review of housing since the 1970s. In that statement we expressed our belief that the private rented sector offers an important and flexible form of tenure to a wide group of people and a genuine alternative to owner occupation and social renting. A thriving, vigorous private rented sector can also encourage mobility and choice, and provide a step on to the first rung of the housing ladder, or starter housing. It can make a major contribution to the flexibility and success of the wider economy.

We are already improving quality in the private rented sector through extra money and new powers for local authorities' private sector renewal work, and through our funding of the £2 million private landlords project to work with private sector landlords to improve the management and condition of housing in selected areas with acute problems of low demand. Indeed, the importance attached by the Government to a vigorous and responsive private rented sector was reflected in last month's pre-Budget report by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who announced our intention to consult on the introduction of United States-style real estate investment trusts—REITs, as they are known—to remove the tax disadvantages currently faced by institutions and to promote investment in the private sector. He also indicated that we would consider a domestic business tax allowance to give more favourable tax treatment to private landlords who make capital improvements to promote energy efficiency.

Mr. David Clelland (Tyne Bridge) (Lab)

Part 3 of the Bill will be very much welcomed, not least by local authorities such as Gateshead council, which has long campaigned for a system of licensing private landlords. The Bill refers to areas of low housing demand. Is my right hon. Friend aware that that means areas that have become run-down because of neglect, or sometimes because of the deliberate policy of absentee 537 landlords who let to antisocial and sometimes criminal elements to reduce property values and build up their empires? In the meantime, decent people are either driven out or made subject to the criminal racist behaviour of such people. Will my right hon. Friend assure us that the Bill will give local authorities all the powers that they need to put an end to that cancer in some of our urban areas?

Keith Hill

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am aware that there are serious issues concerning antisocial behaviour and poor housing conditions as a result of abandonment in his constituency, and in a number of other local authority areas in the north of England and the midlands. That is why we are determined to take action through the Bill to curb the activities of a rogue element by introducing much needed reforms to both the private rented sector and the owner-occupied sector. The Bill will also introduce provision for social housing where action is needed, covering England and Wales.

Joan Ruddoek (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)

The two worst cases of antisocial behaviour that I have dealt with have happened when social services departments outside my own local authority entered into contracts with private landlords and then set people who were not qualified in any sense to support the people involved, who have turned out to be antisocial tenants. I hope that my right hon. Friend agrees that social services departments have a responsibility to give support to tenants who have behaviour patterns that they may not be able to control. That is an important element to consider when we examine the licensing of private properties.

Keith Hill

My hon. Friend is right. If we confer new powers on local authorities to take action in the private rented sector, it is equally incumbent on those local authorities to take appropriate action to limit antisocial behaviour in the properties for which they are responsible. The new powers are widely applauded and will go a long way towards addressing the problem of antisocial behaviour, but experience indicates that early intervention—not least through social services departments—is also important.

In March last year we published the Housing Bill in draft form. By the way, I should point out to Opposition Front Benchers that I have been talking about the Housing Bill for some time, as they would know if only they had been listening. In July the Select Committee published its report on the draft Bill. That exercise proved yet again the value of pre-legislative scrutiny. We were able to respond positively to more than 40 of the Committee's recommendations, including those on houses in multiple occupation and changes to the right-to-buy provisions.

The Housing Bill will provide new powers to tackle problems and inequalities in the private housing sector. Many of the most vulnerable in our society live in private sector accommodation, often in conditions that 538 we should not tolerate, and will tolerate no longer. We will use regulation imaginatively and where the risks are greatest; we will not regulate for its own sake.

Keith Hill

I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Ms Russell), and then to the Opposition Member whose voice I heard.

Lynne Jones

No, it was me.

Keith Hill

The voice came from below the Gangway, but it is not axiomatically an opposition voice. I shall give way to both my hon. Friends.

Ms Russell

We all welcome the long overdue licensing of houses in multiple occupation. I was a member of the Select Committee, which had some concerns about the exemption of student accommodation. We accept that halls of residence are properly monitored and inspected by the educational establishment, but we are concerned about student accommodation in the community. I would welcome my right hon. Friend's views on that issue, because young people leaving home for the first time are vulnerable to problems such as dodgy wiring and unsafe gas appliances. Student homes should be included in the licensing provisions.

Mr. Speaker

Order. Interventions are getting rather long. I have put a 10-minute limit on speeches to accommodate the many Members who wish to speak, and long interventions are unfair to those who are waiting to be called.

Keith Hill

By that token, Mr. Speaker, it is appropriate for me to get on with my speech now, instead of being as generous as I have been heretofore in allowing interventions. I assure my hon. Friend that the proposals for the licensing of HMOs will catch a proportion of student accommodation. However, the purpose of the legislation is to improve the management of properties, not to determine the areas in which students live. I know that concern about student accommodation is widespread, especially among Labour Members, but the Bill includes provision for the extension of an HMO licensing system to areas with clear generic evidence of defective and unsatisfactory accommodation. That may embrace the possibility of extending the licensing system to cover student accommodation, but that is not the central purpose of the Bill, which is to improve the quality of management of the properties most at risk in the HMO sector.

Lynne Jones

As my right hon. Friend is aware, in opposition the Labour party campaigned vigorously for the licensing of HMOs. I have in my hand a document produced by the Minister for Local Government, Regional Governance and Fire when he was shadow housing spokesman, which advocates the licensing of HMOs with four or fewer occupants. Mandatory licensing will apply only to larger HMOs, which will not cover the Bournbrook area of my constituency where 539 there is a large student population, usually four to a house in two-storey houses. The prevalence of such accommodation causes environmental degradation and antisocial behaviour problems. What hope can my right hon. Friend give the permanent residents of such areas that the local authority will have the necessary power to deal with those very real problems?

Keith Hill

I fully understand the concerns of my hon. Friend and other Members about that issue. She should remember, however, that the purpose of the legislation is to deal with the management of properties. Where there is clear evidence of defective management, in terms of the poor condition of properties and the antisocial behaviour of the occupants, there is a basis for intervention. We are trying to focus the legislation on the properties most at risk according to all the available evidence; for example, where there is the highest number of fatalities from fire. We are not in the business of regulating the whole sector—that is not our purpose.

In respect of areas of high student density, our feeling is that the appropriate response from the local authority should be threefold: first, to look carefully at accreditation; secondly, to give greater consideration to the opportunities available through local planning and guidance; and thirdly, to work more carefully with the university authorities. My Department is engaging in depth with the Department for Education and Skills so that we can co-ordinate our approach to problems such as excessive concentrations of students and their wider social implications.

Mr. Mike Hancock (Portsmouth, South) (LD)

Will the Minister give way?

Keith Hill

I fear that I must not give way; as colleagues have pointed out, I have already spoken at some length.

I come to the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Clelland). Decent homes and respectable neighbourhoods are vital to sustainable communities. Unfortunately, in some parts of the country the problems of house price collapse and of abandonment are exacerbated by the irresponsibility of rogue landlords who buy cheap and rent out properties that are often in poor condition, often to antisocial tenants whose activities further debase the local environment.

The Bill will give local authorities new powers selectively to license private landlords in such areas of low housing demand, or in other areas where there is a particular problem, perhaps of antisocial behaviour, for which licensing could be part of the solution. Local authorities will be able to set new and higher standards of management in such properties. If landlords do not comply, the local authority will have the power to take over the management of the property. We believe those measures will be a helpful addition to the armoury of weapons with which local authorities can already tackle antisocial behaviour. We are open-minded about other circumstances in which licensing, sensitively deployed, could make a vital difference to local communities.

540 Houses in multiple occupation often exhibit some of the worst housing conditions. They may be badly managed and in poor physical condition—

Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Keith Hill

Let me make my point before giving way to my hon. Friend; it really will have to be almost the last intervention.

We intend to fulfil our manifesto commitment to introduce new mandatory licensing for the highest risk houses in multiple occupation. I was delighted that Shelter welcomed the proposal as a great step forward. We expect the new mandatory system to cover properties of three or more storeys and which house five or more people who constitute more than one household. Conditions on landlords under licensing will ensure that minimum standards of management are met and maintained, for example, by ensuring that there are safe gas and electrical appliances and that smoke alarms are in proper working order.

I can no longer resist my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love), who is a doughty campaigner on housing issues. I give way to him.

Mr. Love

My right hon. Friend will be aware that there are about 1.5 million houses in multiple occupation, yet according to the Financial Times only about 120,000 will be included in the high risk category, which is less than 10 per cent. As we are trying to deal with both poor physical condition and bad management, will my right hon. Friend give us an assurance that he will ensure that all HMOs exhibiting those problems are covered by the legislation?

Keith Hill

I accept that the management of some smaller HMOs can also be of concern, and licensing could offer a solution in the areas where such concerns are widespread. I hope that that reassures my hon. Friend. In such circumstances, local authorities will be able to extend licensing to other types of HMOs, following local consultation and with the approval of the appropriate Minister for their schemes. However, in all cases, licensees will need to show that they are fit and proper persons to manage the property and that arrangements are in place to ensure that adequate management standards are met.

Mr. Hilton Dawson (Lancaster and Wyre) (Lab)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Keith Hill

I have taken 10 interventions, which is very generous. I am conscious that I have still to describe much of the Bill and that hon. Members have a great desire to participate in the debate, so I feel that I need to pursue my speech without intervention, as far as I possibly can.

I want to make it wholly clear to the House that we do not intend to license the entire private rented sector. The licensing provisions in the Bill target the highest risk and most problematic private rented accommodation. I say again that the vast majority of private landlords are decent and responsible people. They, along with decent tenants and the local community, will benefit from these provisions.

541 There are close links between housing and health, and poor housing has safety as well as health implications, particularly for older and vulnerable people. Tackling health and safety issues in housing requires an approach that looks at the impact of the property on the individual, as well as the state of the house itself. The Bill paves the way for that approach by replacing the existing housing fitness standard with new enforcement arrangements based on the housing health and safety rating system. That will help local authorities to prioritise their activities and target properties where the health and safety hazards and the risks to residents are greatest. I am glad to say that the British Medical Association has enthusiastically endorsed those provisions. It said: The housing health and safety rating system provides the best available assessment of the health risks of a dwelling and its use should be underpinned by primary legislation, introduced without delay. We are happy to oblige.

The Bill will also continue the modernisation of the right-to-buy scheme, tackling exploitation and reducing profiteering. The Government remain fully committed to the principle of the right to buy. It has helped many thousands of ordinary families to realise their aspirations to own their own homes and it has helped to create stable mixed-tenure communities, but there are loopholes, and the Bill seeks to close them.

We proposed four changes in the draft Bill, including extending the period of qualification for the right to buy and the period during which discount must be repaid if a home is sold on. We have added further provisions following recommendations from the Select Committee on the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the home ownership taskforce, including giving social landlords a right of first refusal when an owner wishes to resell a property within 10 years of buying. Properties scheduled for demolition will be exempted from the right to buy, which is particularly relevant where regeneration schemes are proposed. Also, tenants who do deferred resale deals with companies will have to repay discount. Both measures will tackle the profiteering that has escalated the loss of social housing in areas of highest housing need. Making the RTB work better for existing tenants and prospective owners is essential to a comprehensive approach to local housing.

As I have indicated, we are devoting significant funding to the construction of new affordable housing, but it is clearly our duty to ensure that we get value for money from that investment. The Bill therefore provides for the Housing Corporation to pay grant to organisations other than registered social landlords. Similar changes will apply in Wales. That will encourage competition and increase the supply of affordable homes. Commercial developers who receive such grants will be required to reach the same high standards as registered social landlords.

Mr. Simon Thomas (Ceredigion) (PC)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Keith Hill

I am sorry, but I have to continue with my speech as I am conscious of the pressure on the House's time.

More people than ever own their own homes. More than two thirds of homes are owner-occupied and at some point most people will buy or sell a property. But 542 the process of buying and selling a house is, frankly, shambolic. Almost one third of would-be house purchases fall through. Surveys tell us that nine out of 10 people are unhappy with the process and want some change. For many people, the house buying process can be time consuming, expensive, unpredictable and extremely stressful. Our proposals need to be considered against that background.

We therefore intend to make provision for the introduction of home information packs. That is a further manifesto commitment. We have thoroughly researched such a system and a number of voluntary home information pack schemes are already operating successfully. We are clear that making key information available right at the start of the process makes home buying and selling easier, more transparent and more successful.

I am delighted that our home information pack reforms have the full support of the Consumers Association, which welcomes the inclusion of the packs in the Bill. The late Dame Sheila McKechnie was a strong advocate of the home information pack, and I am sure that the whole House will join me in paying tribute to her memory. We have also had support from a significant number of industry stakeholders, including the Halifax building society and the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors.

Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)

Will the Minister now list all those professional organisations that are opposed to the home information packs?

Keith Hill

If I may say so to the hon. Gentleman, on this occasion the Liberal Democrats have got it spectacularly wrong. Traditionally and historically the self-proclaimed defenders of the consumer, they are in this regard, like the official Opposition, simply playing to the game of the vested interests. They have got it wrong, and we will demonstrate in the course of proceedings on the Bill how wrong they have got it.

The fact is that these interests, these stakeholders, recognise with us that changes are needed in the way in which homes are bought and sold. Home information packs will make a difference, but we will address other aspects of the process as well. We are on the side of the consumer and we are confident of consumer support. If the Opposition remain in any doubt about consumer support for the proposals, I refer them to the excellent briefing prepared by the Consumers Association for today's debate, entitled "Home Truths". It is time that the Opposition learned those on this issue.

The main components of the pack are likely to be local searches, a home condition report including an energy efficiency certificate, and other legal documents such as evidence of title. We are continuing to work closely with industry and consumer stakeholders on the detailed components.

Sir Sydney Chapman (Chipping Barnet) (Con)

I accept that some people are very enthusiastic about the home information pack and that very reputable professional organisations and other experts are opposed to it. The Minister has prayed in aid the fact that various organisations support him. If the system is 543 working well—I believe that it is in parts—and if he is minded to introduce this scheme, he should surely do so on a voluntary basis, at least for the first few years. He might he agreeably surprised to find that that removes much of the criticism. Further, can he confirm that the Bill will remove the criminal sanctions that he envisaged in the draft Bill, and instead include civil proceedings? That is a much better way of dealing with the problem.

Keith Hill

I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman—who has, I know, great expertise in such matters—an assurance about the removal of criminal sanctions and the introduction of civil penalties in the present proposals. However, for reasons that I propose to set out very shortly, I cannot accept the arguments for continuing the scheme on a voluntary basis.

Claims about the costs of the pack have been wildly exaggerated. Most of the documents have to be provided in any event. Only the home condition report is new, and even commissioning a survey is hardly novel. In most cases, the costs will be transferred from the buyer to the seller, who, in turn, will usually also be a buyer. What is very important is that first-time buyers will benefit the most as they will not have to pay those costs up front to get on the first rung of the property ladder.

We recognise, however, the Select Committee's concerns about the industry's readiness. As we have said before, home information packs will be introduced only when we are fully satisfied that all conditions are in place to make the scheme a success, including sufficient numbers of trained home inspectors and satisfactory insurance arrangements. We are consulting consumer and industry partners on the possibility of a phased introduction of home information packs as part of a national roll-out.

I do not agree that further piloting before the introduction of the packs would be useful. We have already had a voluntary local pilot to test the scheme's mechanics. Packs are being trialled successfully through several voluntary schemes in Britain and we know that the packs work successfully elsewhere in the world. I do not believe that further pilot testing would tell us much more than what we already know. We know what is required, so the task is to deliver that at a sensible pace after the proper scrutiny that good project management secures.

Mr. Chris Mole (Ipswich) (Lab)

Does my right hon. Friend have any views on the preparedness of local authorities for the operation of electronic land and property records to support the introduction of the new approach?

Keith Hill

My hon. Friend is right. We must ensure that work on e-conveyancing and online information from local authorities is in place at the earliest possible opportunity so that we achieve part of the purpose of the process—to have as rapid a house transaction process as possible. I thank him for his intervention because he is absolutely right.

The Bill will also introduce a new office of social housing ombudsman for Wales for the purpose of investigating complaints against social landlords in 544 Wales. I referred earlier to measures to combat antisocial behaviour, when discussing the provisions on selective licensing, and the Bill contains three other measures that consolidate those in the Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003. First, as foreshadowed in the draft Housing Bill, local authorities will be given the flexibility to extend an introductory tenancy beyond its usual 12-month period. Secondly, landlords of secure tenants will be able to refuse a mutual exchange application if successful court action has been taken against tenants or members of their households for antisocial behaviour or if such proceedings are in progress. Thirdly, the Bill provides that if a tenant is pursuing a right-to-buy purchase while a landlord is seeking a possession or demotion order against that same tenant on the ground of antisocial behaviour, the purchase cannot be completed until the possession or demotion proceedings have been heard. That will put an end to the abuse by which antisocial tenants exploit the right to buy to avoid the consequences of their actions.

Finally, the Bill contains two further measures to end inequalities. It will give unmarried different sex partners and same sex partners who do not enter into a civil partnership the same rights in relation to tenancy succession. It will also extend eligibility for disabled facilities grants to all those who occupy caravans as their only or main residence.

The Government have done much to create sustainable communities. We are addressing both supply and demand issues in the housing market in a way that has not been seen for many years. However, more needs to be done—and can be done—to create a fairer, more efficient housing market, and to protect the most vulnerable in housing. The Bill is central to the Government's agenda and will put in place the legislative framework necessary to deliver decent homes and decent places. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. David Curry (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)

I beg to move, To leave out from "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof: this House declines to give a Second Reading to a bill which introduces burdensome, ineffective and bureaucratic information packs; fails to provide a sufficiently clear licensing regime; weakens tenants' right to buy; is unclear on the rules and standards that regulate private sector access to Housing Corporation funds; and, overall, acts as a disincentive to offering property for letting in the UK's weak private rented sector.

I draw attention to the fact that I write occasional articles for The Builder.

I hope that the House will not think that I am eccentric if I devote my speech to the Bill. It is complex and will merit serious discussion in Committee because its outline raises an enormous number of questions. Parts of the Bill are welcome, subject to their effective implementation and full discussion of their implications, such as the new housing health and safety rating system, which extends to housing the hazard analysis at critical control point principles of risk assessment that apply in other parts of the economy, such as food processing. Further welcome aspects of the Bill are the introduction of the housing ombudsman for Wales and the fact that it includes an acceptance of the need to do more to tackle antisocial behaviour by, for example, strengthening the introductory tenancies that were introduced by the Government in which I served.

545 Other elements of the Bill need urgent clarification and, I suspect, simplification if they are to be capable of effective administration and enforcement, especially the licensing provisions. Other parts of it are simply unnecessary, obstructive, ill-conceived and burdensome, like the seller's pack and the intervention in the housing market.

Parts of the Bill are virtually incapable of assessment because it is an enabling measure and no details are given of how the provisions will work in practice, especially private sector access to the social housing grant. Finally, some clauses are presented as intending to tackle abuse, but, when taken in combination with earlier steps, seem set to challenge the operation of well-established policies—for example, the right to buy.

The most important part of the Bill is, by common acceptance, licensing. No one will object to measures clearly aimed at reducing loss of life and injury in premises that may often house vulnerable and insecure poor people and families, perhaps with low levels of competence. The measures must, however, be subject to sensible tests of their practicality and effectiveness. Are they as light as possible to deliver the job that they are supposed to do? Are they easily understood, clear and well defined? Are they properly enforceable on a consistent basis? Will they raise expertise, confidence and standards among landlords, especially in the private sector, to encourage them to place property on the market? We all talk constantly about the need for the private sector to play a fuller part in housing provision in the United Kingdom even though it is such a poor provider on any comparison with other western countries in terms of what it can do.

The problem is that the licensing element tries to tackle too many objectives in too many ways. We risk ending up with a cluttered, confusing and congested landscape of regulation that may not even protect the most vulnerable. The Bill proposes mandatory licensing of houses in multiple occupation containing five people and of three storeys. It proposes discretionary licensing of a wider range of houses in multiple occupation. It also proposes selective licensing of all private landlords in designated areas of low demand, in areas that are likely to decline into areas of low demand or in areas that suffer from antisocial behaviour. Those powers may also be used outside areas of low demand to tackle bad landlords and antisocial behaviour. As the Minister said, enforcement is effected by interim management orders or final management orders, with the costs of licensing to be met almost entirely by the licensing fee.

The panoply of powers inevitably raises a host of questions. Who decides who is a good or bad landlord? On what basis is that decided? Against what test is the decision made? Is it objective, intuitive or, as the Minister said, generic, whatever that might mean? When can selective powers be used, and for what? In what circumstances would the Deputy Prime Minister expect to authorise licensing of all private landlords, and how extensive will the use of the new discretionary schemes be? What is the degree of antisocial behaviour that will trigger licensing? How is that to be demonstrated? Is it true that the Bill will apply licensing to some owner-occupied self-contained flats for which the duty to license and enforce would fall on freeholders or managers, who have no right to enter the premises to which the regulations apply?

546 The danger is that the Government are creating a complex, fuzzy-edged, overlapping and differently enforced heterogeneous patchwork of schemes, which will be a deterrent, not an incentive, to landlords and lead to situations in which, for example, five properties that are owned by one person are each under a different regulatory regime. I have no principled or ideological objection to licensing if it delivers a specific, defined, achievable and measurable benefit. I fear that the Bill is about to create a regulatory web in which all the players—tenants, landlords, regeneration agencies and local authorities—will become hopelessly enmeshed. We look to the Minister to unravel its operations in Committee before it unravels in the country at large.

The Minister reaffirmed the Government's commitment to the right to buy. We never quite believed their commitment because they forced it out through clenched teeth and took an awful long time to make it. It is worth recalling, as is stated in the Housing Corporation's report on affordable homes, that 1.5 million people and families have managed to own their own home through the process and 50,000 people a year are still doing so. The merits of the scheme, as spelled out by the Housing Corporation, are that it is accessible, simple and easily understood and that it operates easily.

The Barker report, which is a systematic indictment of the Government's failure to deliver even minimum levels of affordable and social housing, should perhaps be delivered in juxtaposition to the Minister's 20-minute prologue to his remarks about the Bill. I notice in this Government a wonderful tendency to elide the notions of affordable housing and social housing. They are not the same. Affordable housing is generally designed for people who want to purchase, perhaps through shared ownership, and social housing is for people who want to rent from a registered social landlord. I hope that the Government will maintain that distinction, rather than pretending that they are the same thing.

Matthew Green

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the issue of social housing and registered social landlords, will he confirm whether it is still Conservative party policy to extend the right to buy to all RSL tenants?

Mr. Curry

I notice in the Housing Corporation's report a recommendation that the right to buy ought to be extended across the social sectors because it is clearly unfair that somebody in a local authority house should have the right to buy and that, for a local authority house that has been transferred, the right to buy is carried with that transfer, whereas for a housing association property it is not, generally speaking, although there are some exceptions. We shall develop a policy that seeks to fulfil that objective of creating a level playing field, and the Housing Corporation has come up with some extremely sensible ideas for the way forward. Had it given more mechanisms on how to move 547 forward, it would have been even more helpful. There are some fine aspirations in that report, but the mechanics need to be put in place.

Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab)

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that his policy would allow RSL properties in rural villages to be sold?

Mr. Curry

We have never sold RSL properties in villages. There has always been a prohibition on such sales in villages of fewer than 3,000 inhabitants. That was built into the very first right-to-buy proposals, and it would remain the case. I am a rural Member of Parliament, and I know precisely the problems of providing housing for local people. I support those measures that allow local authorities and social providers to limit access to people from the local community and to maintain that access.

Mr. Steen

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in rural areas such as south Devon, there is a shortage of greenfield land, the only area where there is any spare land to build houses, with the result that councils are not building on such sites? There is therefore great scarcity and prices are going up. The Government are failing because they cannot build affordable or social housing—scarcity leads to the prices rising too high.

Mr. Curry

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is the problem everywhere. The Barker report says that 39,000 additional houses ought to be built every year, merely to keep up with population growth and household formation, and that is almost certainly an underestimate. The work was done by Shelter in co-operation with the Barker inquiry.

Andrew Bennett (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)

Do I take it from the right hon. Gentleman's advocacy of all this extra housing that he is prepared to reverse the policy of the Conservative party, which was critical of Labour, claiming that we were going to concrete over the green belt? Is he now committing himself to putting all those new houses into the green belt?

Mr. Curry

Nobody is talking about the green belt. We all recognise that there is a major demand for property. We know that it comes from a number of sources, one of which is household formation—that is sociology. Immigration in south-east England causes a significant demand for housing because people are spilling out of London into the region. We also know that in the major metropolitan areas, with the possible exception of Leeds—it depends whether the census people have got their facts right—people are spilling out of the centre into the suburbs. I do not dispute the fact that there is a significant demand. The question is how and where we meet that demand. The idea that demand in London and the south-east is created by people from Yorkshire and Lancashire marching down the M1 or the A1 with soot or snow on their boots is entirely illusory; indeed, sane people are moving in the opposite direction.

548 The Government claim that the measures in the Bill will have no impact on the volume of sales. The explanatory notes, which are normally almost as incomprehensible as the Bill itself, state on page 61, at paragraph 361: There will be a limited effect on public expenditure. The number of sales under the scheme is unlikely to be affected. I have to say that I treat that with a degree of scepticism. The changes to the discount already implemented may well have stopped the right to buy in its tracks in London—it remains to be seen whether that is so—and the Bill's other measures, including the extension of the qualifying period, a consequence of which is that discounts are repayable in the event of resale within that period, add to a significantly steeper barrier to right to buy.

I accept that some of the measures make sense. I agree that if a property is to be demolished within a reasonable period, people should not be allowed to buy merely in order to be able to claim compensation. I have no problem with giving rights of first refusal to social landlords on a market basis—provided that the process of putting property on the market is not delayed. Nor do I have a problem with the penalisation of deferred resale agreements, although it is worth stating that the Heriot-Watt university study showed a very limited use of companies and that many people used them because they had no access to finance from conventional sources, so one has to be careful how one uses that argument. However, I have still to be persuaded that the Bill does not form another chapter of the insidious Labour attack on the right to buy, which the party has never really approved or embraced. I hope that the measures are genuinely targeted on abuse and that it will be demonstrated that the volume of sales has not been significantly affected.

Ms Oona King (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)

May I reiterate the incredible problems that the right to buy has caused in areas such as Tower Hamlets? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that extending the policy to housing associations, for example, would involve additional public subsidy of about £1 billion? Where would that money be found?

Mr. Curry

I really do not think that the hon. Lady has got it right in this instance. The people who produced the Housing Corporation report were not a bunch of card-carrying Conservatives, and one of the clear points they made in the report was that we had to consider some means by which we could create equal conditions across the social field. That is especially important given that the burden of development of social housing has passed from local authorities, and may pass from housing associations as well under the Government's proposals to bring in private developers, albeit into schemes that, I suspect, will be managed by housing associations. It therefore makes sense to search for a reasonable way in which housing opportunities can be made more generally available.

Jeremy Corbyn

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the vast ongoing scandal whereby council properties are bought under right to buy with money loaned to the tenants, then rented out at exorbitant rates to people, many of whom are entitled to housing benefit 549 and whose rents are paid by the public? Does he not think that someone who exercises their right to buy should be limited to renting out the property for no more than the council or housing association would have rented it out for?

Mr. Curry

I have already said that in so far as the measures are designed to stop such practices, I support them. I am not in the business of promoting manipulation or abuse of the system—I want people's natural and normal aspirations to be fulfilled. I said that we would support the Government in so far as they are trying to deal with abuses.

David Wright (Telford) (Lab)

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned how he would like to standardise the right-to-buy regime across the social housing sectors. Does he think that we should standardise the discount regime as well?

Mr. Curry

The hon. Gentleman is using "standardise" falsely. I want people to have opportunities across the right-to-buy spectrum. Those may well be equivalent opportunities—

David Wright

So, continuing variable discounts.

Mr. Curry

That is one of the recommendations in the Housing Corporation report, "A home of my own", but although the corporation was strong on possible sensible directions in which to move, it has not yet provided any of the landing lights showing how to arrive at our destination, so we must all try to work out the details.

The Minister may recall that when we were in government we toyed with the idea of introducing a social housing grant for private sector developers, but did not proceed. The Government believe that housing associations have grown lazy on the fat of the land and are failing on output, productivity and value for money. One only has to talk to people in the sector to realise that that message is coming over loud and clear, particularly from the Treasury. The idea is that the private sector will be brought in, particularly because of the need to meet targets in the communities plan. The measure must be seen against the background of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill and the introduction of a tariff system to commute section 106 agreements into cash payments. After all, the majority of social housing is the result of planning gain. Registered social landlords and housing associations fear that private developers will build on easy sites, many of which will be in the green belt, such as areas around Milton Keynes, undermining their ability to recycle surpluses from, for example, shared ownership into social housing construction. Housing associations and the private sector are developing partnerships in which developers have responsibility for the land and housing associations grant and management functions. They are working together effectively, especially in areas where land values are high, within the framework of section 106.

As with much of the Housing Bill, a great deal depends on the detail of how it works. Can section 106 agreements be replaced across the board with cash or tariff payments, or is it the intention that section 106 will 550 remain a requirement for social housing provision? There is a lack of clarity about what is intended in the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill, but it is crucial that we know whether section 106 agreements can be replaced in principle with a cash payment at the demand of a developer or whether local authorities can insist that a quota of social housing be met when private developers are given planning permission?

Keith Hill

That is not the subject of the Housing Bill, but I am happy to respond. We have made it clear throughout discussions on the Government's new proposals on section 106, that that will be for the local authority to determine. The local authority will determine the way in which the requirements of section 106 will be met, and whether that will be done wholly in kind, partly in kind, wholly by cash or partly by cash. However, that decision is for the local authority to make and for the developer to respond to.

Mr. Curry

We will pursue that in the course of our proceedings because, although the proposals are in the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill, they are relevant to the Housing Bill—the two are meshed together. However, my understanding was that developers would have the right to commute section 106 agreements across the piece. That obviously has significant implications, but this is not the time to deal with them.

What proportion of social housing grant are the Government willing to commit to private sector developers as opposed to registered social landlords? Is there a cut-off point? The Minister said that the standards and rules would be identical. With Sir John Egan's recommendations on productivity, training and techniques in mind, the issue of the level playing field becomes significant. What happens if a private developer goes bust? Who safeguards the tenant's interest, and who safeguards the public interest, given that public funds have been committed to the scheme? There have been rumours of objections from Brussels to the state aid provisions. I should therefore be grateful if, in Committee, the Minister clarified whether there are any such concerns from Brussels about the operation of those provisions.

Mr. Simon Thomas

The right hon. Gentleman has raised some issues that the Minister skipped over rather too quickly for many of us who are sceptical about the Bill's provisions. However, if public money is going to be used to provide social housing, the powers of the independent housing ombudsman in Wales and England are pertinent. Surely, tenants of such housing have the same rights as tenants of housing provided directly by registered social landlords. Does he agree?

Mr. Curry

The hon. Gentleman has added an extremely relevant question to my list of questions for the Minister. I am happy to endorse it, and shall point it out to my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes), who will be dealing with the Bill in Committee.

I have left until last the issue of the seller's packs—or more precisely, the son of seller's packs—because I like to keep some of the nicest parts until the end. It is a bad answer in search of a problem. The comparison with 551 other markets has little legitimacy. The British mortgage market, which the Minister for Housing and Planning described as shambolic—a curious choice of words—is, with 1.5 million transactions a year, one of the most dynamic, innovative and high-volume in the world. Professor David Miles gave a strong endorsement to the operations of the British housing market, somewhat to the disappointment, I suspect, of the Treasury, which thought that there was a wonderful fixed rate interest solution to the problems of volatility.

The problems are easily stated. The seller's pack will add to the costs of transactions, which is particularly true in low-value areas. If we move, according to what the Government have been spinning, to a new band of council tax in areas of housing stress where houses can be sold for a few thousand pounds, it will be a measurable addition to the overall costs. It will require a new army of inspectors—the estimate is some 7,000 to 8,000 of them to produce home information packs. Who will recruit them, who will train them, and what will be their professional experience? Even more pertinently, what will be their indemnity or insurance position in the event of there being a problem with the information contained in the packs, given that no claims history exists on which to base it.

Mrs. Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)

Does my right hon. Friend agree that an alternative proposal to assist both the vendor and the purchaser would be to have a fresh look at the work done by the Land Registry, which appears systematically, particularly in Devon, to provide inaccurate information in solicitors' searches, leading to many court cases and unnecessary legal costs for both vendor and purchaser?

Mr. Curry

My hon. Friend is right. If the basic information is incorrect, it does not matter in what form it is assembled, or in what sort of pack—the information remains incorrect and needs to be sorted out. The Minister mentioned the idea of a phased roll-out—wonderful word that the Government use. Would it not be more sensible to roll out bits of the pack at a time, rather than to roll it out on a geographic or price basis? The danger is that there will be an unnecessary multiplication of systems and costs. We are likely to end up with a pack of some 55 to 60 pages, which will have been written for lawyers, and which will be valid for no more than six months—the length of time for which the lending industry will regard it as valid—to deal with the problem of failed transactions, which are much more likely to stem from relationship breakdown, relocation, the chain of selling, the difficulty with funding or change of mind than from technical problems with transparency in the process or deficiency in the information—[Interruption.] I give way to the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) with whom I used to share the chair of the all-party group on homelessness and housing need.

Mr. Love

I welcome the fact that this part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech comes at the end rather than the beginning. The Consumers Association has said that housing information packs will

552 make it easier for consumers to make informed decisions about property instead of having to rely on the property details as put together by estate agents which are often misleading and inaccurate.

Does he agree?

Mr. Curry

No, I do not agree entirely. I do not think that the Consumers Association's pronouncements should be regarded as having biblical truth attached to them. Despite having the word "consumers" in its name, it has got many things wrong in its time, and if the hon. Gentleman would like to join me in a beer at some stage, I will be able to go into that in some detail.

Do the Government intend to exempt any properties—there was some talk about whether properties up to a certain value might be exempted? The danger might be that if some low-value properties cannot even get a home information pack, they really would be stigmatised for being at the bottom end of the market. The Government are already saying that landlords should warn right-to-buy purchasers of the burdens of home ownership and of what they are taking on. In that context, it seems curious that there is no requirement on the public sector to deliver home information packs or seller's packs, for example, on right-to-buy property. That seems a curious perversity in the Government's proposals. As has been said, there are much better ways to increase efficiency—e-conveyancing, improved efficiency and better searches by the national land information centre, and agreement of common data exchange formats.

My final point is that this measure is likely to lead remorselessly to demands for the licensing of estate agents. The only people in the housing world who are not licensed are estate agents, and they will be key players in the process, whether or not they have any expertise. I wait to see the inevitable bandwagon demanding licensing of estate agents rolling towards us—[Interruption.]

I knew that on using the wonderful word "licensing" I would receive a Pavlovian response.

Finally, let me mention a couple of absent friends. One is any reference to empty properties, a subject to which the Government have alluded on a number of occasions; another is the issue of park homes. The Government have recognised the need for legislation on park homes. Park owners and tenants have reached a consensus on a number of important matters, yet the Government have apparently said that such measures cannot be incorporated in this Bill, although it already includes measures to extend the definition of park homes so that gypsies and travellers can benefit from improvement grants that are currently not available to them. That seems perverse, given that there is all-party consensus on the issue and no argument between the two sides involved. After all, we do not have many opportunities to legislate in this way.

Mr. Dawson

I agree with all that the right hon. Gentleman has said about park homes. The Government have already produced a hand-out Bill dealing with crucial issues such as the harassment of residents of the park home sector. Surely those provisions could be incorporated in the Housing Bill.

Mr. Curry

They were agreed by all parties, and I am sure that they could easily be incorporated. If the 553 Government are not prepared to incorporate them, we shall seek to do so ourselves, because it would make a great deal of sense.

This could he made into a sensible, practical, forward-looking Bill that could garner a wide range of support. The Government could drop the whole idea of seller's packs. They could tailor the right-to-buy measures to ensure that they are really targeted at abuse. They could simplify the licensing measures to create a unified system that is easy to understand, administer and enforce. They could supply the essential details that allow us to make judgments on other parts of the Bill that are still very imprecise, such as the part dealing with the social housing grant. In its current form, however, the Bill is unwieldy, too often confused, constantly lacking clarity or clear definition of purpose and frequently deficient in basic, essential details.

In Committee, we will do our best to turn this Bill into the sort of Bill that it ought to be and—given imagination and hard work—could still become.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal)

Order. I remind Members that Mr. Speaker has imposed a 10-minute limit on all Back-Bench speeches.

Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)

As I listened to the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry), it occurred to me that my maiden speech, made nearly 34 years ago, was about housing. Housing is still the principal issue in my constituency, at any rate, although the nature of the issue has changed over all those years. That is why I especially welcome the provisions relating to licensing of private landlords' properties, both houses in multiple occupation and individual properties.

One reason for the present problem involving empty owner-occupied houses in particular—a problem that we did not have when I was first a Member of Parliament—is the fact that the behaviour of private landlords is making those areas uninhabitable, while also driving down the value of owner-occupied houses. Worthy owners who take pride in their homes may find those homes less and less pleasant to live in, and certainly find that the value is falling more and more. For the first time since the worst days of the Conservative Government's housing policies, there are serious problems of negative equity in parts of my constituency. People who wish to sell their houses and to move are unable to do so because the sums offered to them, if any would be offered at all, are often derisory.

We have a much smaller private rented sector than during the Rachmanite period 40 years ago, but in a way private landlords behave worse than Rachman and his associates and that is leading to demoralisation and disappointment among, as I say, good worthy people with pride in the homes that they own. Private landlords are using houses not simply for antisocial purposes but often for criminal purposes. Again and again, I have complaints from my constituents, particularly in Gorton, south but also in Gorton, north and other parts of my constituency, about private landlord houses that are used for the sale and use of drugs and used as 554 brothels. Often, the tenants of those homes are in collusion with the landlord. Often, they are, it is appalling to say, sharing their housing benefit in a crooked operation with the landlords. Therefore, I welcome very much indeed the licensing provisions in the Bill with regard both to houses in multiple occupation, of which I have a considerable number, and individual dwellings.

I hope that my colleagues in the Government will urge Manchester city council, as soon as that part of the Bill becomes operative, to introduce licensing for very large tracts of my constituency, so that we can start to deal with that problem and restore the pride of owner-occupiers and other residents of those areas in the neighbourhoods in which they live.

We now have precedents for the way in which those improvements can take place. Fifteen years ago, the Northmoor part of my constituency was an area of despair, depression and dismay for the people living in it. It was going completely downhill. Local people got together in the local Methodist church to try to work out a plan. It was only when the Government came to office and started the neighbourhood renewal schemes that we, together with the housing association and the city council, were able to reverse the trends in the Northmoor area. Regeneration is now so obvious that people wish to become owner-occupiers in properties there that they would never have considered buying 15 years ago.

Therefore, it can be done. That is why I appeal to my right hon. Friend the Minister, having introduced this extremely worthy measure, to go on with neighbourhood renewal. We have an on-the-street scheme in Gorton. As a result, neighbourhood wardens, using their spare time without being paid, have been able to draw more than 600 young people, sometimes with criminal or antisocial behaviour records, into the community. We need the renewal of the neighbourhood warden scheme in order that the wardens can continue that remarkable work. I will send the Minister the DVD that has been produced by the children and wardens in that area to show what can be done.

As I say, regeneration under the Government is not just a slogan. It is being achieved because of neighbourhood renewal schemes, the neighbourhood warden schemes and Sure Start, which has a remarkable record in my constituency, but we want more and I hope that the Minister will be able to provide it. I also ask my right hon. Friend to expand on the Government's policies for dealing with empty owner-occupied properties.

Another issue is the creation of a housing ombudsman for Wales. On paper, I understand why it is not literally necessary for England to have such an ombudsman, but I hope that my right hon. Friend will reconsider. I should like to see far more work done in relation to making housing associations accountable. God help me; when I was Housing Minister in a previous Labour Government, I piloted the legislation that gave housing associations greater responsibilities, duties and rights, and more money. I should like housing associations to be as responsive as local authorities, which may not always be wonderful but have to be accountable to councillors in a way that housing associations are not.

555 In one area of my constituency—Field street, Godwin street, Corrigan street, Gathurst street and Franklin road; I do not apologise for naming those streets—housing association properties are derelict and boarded up, which leads to criminal incursions into those areas. The proud people who live there want something done about it. It is a complex problem, but North British Housing, working with our city council, could improve the situation.

Housing will always be a huge issue. There was a time when we in the city of Manchester had the best record of any local authority in the country in terms of building new dwellings. That was destroyed completely by the policies of the Conservative Party in government. Nevertheless, using the funding that my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister made available at the beginning of the last Parliament, we are able to do a lot more neighbourhood renewal. However, we need still more.

I am proud of this Labour Government's record on housing. The Government have transformed a situation that got worse and worse during the 18 years of Conservative government. Now we have a Labour Government who care about housing and have practical policies to make housing better. I hope that the Government will build on what they are doing, that they will not weary of doing well, that they will address themselves in particular to the question of empty, formerly owner-occupied properties, that they will help with negative equity and that they will improve the situation even more for the benefit of my constituents.

Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)

The House should be grateful to the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry), for telling the House what was in the Bill—the Minister did not spend much time doing so—and to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), who gave real constituency examples of how the Bill could help. I say to the latter that I very much agree with his point about empty homes, as I shall go on to explain.

It is frustrating to be faced with a Bill that has some excellent elements coupled with some monstrosities. It is almost as frustrating to face a Bill that offers worthy and much needed benefits, yet omits so much that is needed possibly even more urgently. Unfortunately, that is the case today.

Some of the proposed regulation of the private rented sector should have happened many years ago. In particular, much of the regulation of the houses in multiple occupation sector is to be welcomed, although there are some criticisms of the detail. Updating the fitness standards should have happened decades ago; those standards go back to the 1920s and '30s and this House should have looked at them before. The proposal for selective licensing is a useful weapon in the fight against antisocial behaviour, and is one of the better things that the Government have done about that problem. The proposals to tackle right-to-buy abuses are also welcome.

556 However, we have real problems with the home information packs, which are unnecessary and represent regulation and intervention that will be costly and will have exactly the opposite effects that the Government intend.

We are also concerned that many much needed measures—for example, a tenancy deposit scheme and compulsory leasing of homes that have been empty for more than 12 months—have not found their way into the Bill. We shall certainly try to persuade the Government in Committee to think again on the omissions.

It is right to start by welcoming much of what is in the Bill and I also welcome the process to which it has been subject. It is not the first item of legislation to go through the draft Bill process, with evidence taken by the relevant Select Committee, but the changes that the Government have made between the draft and the final stage show that they have listened. The House owes the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister: Housing, Planning and Local Government Committee a real debt for the evidence that it took and the work that it did, which has improved the Bill. That is good for Parliament, allowing it to deal with the mountain of legislation emanating from the Government in a rather more considered way. The Government deserve credit for that.

I shall examine the legislative proposals for houses in multiple occupation in more detail. The evidence to suggest that people living in some of the HMOs covered by the Bill face real dangers from fire and other health and safety problems—and in a way that other tenants do not—is considerable. The Department accepts that, and other independent studies have demonstrated it, so licensing the HMO sector is welcome.

We will have some debates and disagreements with the Government on the fine details of the Bill. As was said earlier, the fact that university-provided accommodation is excluded does not make sense, and there are also some problems with definitions. We want to probe the Government in Committee on, for example, the definition that ties HMO regulation to three-storey buildings and five occupants. That might be rather too narrow. Perhaps we should decouple the terms to make it an "and" rather than an "or". Those are obviously debates that we shall conduct in Committee.

As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) said, when in opposition, the Minister for Local Government, Regional Governance and Fire argued for regulation of HMOs with just four occupants, so it appears that the Front-Bench team have changed their minds in passing from opposition to government, and they will have to provide good reason for doing so—

Mr. Simon Thomas

All too frequent.

Mr. Davey

As the hon. Gentleman says, that has happened all too frequently.

The fitness standards needed updating, but we have some concerns about whether what is