RESERVED MATTERS (Hansard, 30 March 1998)

The Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, Scottish Office (Mr. Henry McLeish)
I beg to move amendment No. 509, in page 59, line 8, leave out from beginning to end of line 11 and insert—

'Paragraph 1 does not reserve—

() Her Majesty's prerogative and other executive functions, or

() functions exercisable by any person acting on behalf of the Crown'.

The Chairman
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 486, in page 59, line 8, leave out '(1) Subject to sub—paragraph (2),'. Government amendment No. 510.
No. 487, in page 59, leave out lines 12 to 16.
Government amendments Nos. 511 to 521.

Mr. McLeish
Government amendments Nos. 509 to 520 make minor technical amendments to the part of schedule 5 dealing with the constitution. Amendment No. 509 would alter the wording of paragraph 2(1) to extend the Scottish Parliament's legislative competence so that it can make provision for all the prerogative and other executive functions carried out personally or in the name of the Queen in so far as they relate to matters that are not reserved. A key example of its effect as against the present provision would be to enable the Scottish Parliament to confer powers of appointment on the Queen, for example to appoint the Scottish Parliamentary Ombudsman. Not to make this amendment would leave a significant and unnecessary gap in a range of powers available to the Parliament.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)
Have the amendment and its substance been agreed with the Palace?

Mr. McLeish
Yes.
Amendments Nos. 510 and 511 would adjust the wording of paragraph 2(2) to take into account amendment No. 509. Amendment No. 511 would clarify 904 the fact that the Lyon Court and the Lord Lyon in his judicial capacity are devolved, despite the reservation of the functions of the Lord Lyon in relation to the granting of arms. Amendments Nos. 512, 513 and 514 would amend paragraph 3(1) to ensure that Crown property owned by or held in trust for anyone acting on behalf of the Crown is not caught by the general reservation of the Crown. That is to ensure that the property of the Scottish Executive is covered by this provision. The reference to "government department" in the present version of the Bill could leave that in doubt. Amendment No. 515 would alter the wording of paragraph 3(3) to take that change into account.
Amendment No. 516 would make it clear that the compulsory acquisition of property held by a Minister of the Crown is reserved, so that the Scottish Parliament could not compulsorily acquire property held by Departments of the United Kingdom Government. In general, the law relating to compulsory purchase will be a matter for the Scottish Parliament, but it would obviously not be right for the Scottish Parliament or the Scottish Executive to be entitled to purchase compulsorily property held by, for example, the Ministry of Defence or by the Department of Social Security for reserved purposes.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde)
Which Department will be responsible for the cost of the maintenance of Holyroodhouse? Will the Scottish Parliament or a Department in London pay that bill? I understand that the annual cost of upkeep is slightly in excess of £1 million.

Mr. McLeish
The cost will be borne by the Scottish Parliament and administered from Holyrood.
The general exception for Crown property was not designed to permit such compulsory purchase, and amendment No. 516 makes that clear.
Amendments Nos. 517 and 518 adjust the drafting of paragraph 4 to take account of other changes in drafting, including amendment No. 509. Paragraph 4 makes it clear that property held by the Queen in her private capacity is not reserved—it will be subject to general legislation of the Scottish Parliament on matters such as planning and the environment—but that the regulation of that property under the Crown Private Estates Acts is reserved.
Amendments Nos. 519 and 520 would delete paragraphs 5(a) and (c), which would be redundant if the other amendments are made.
I trust that the House will agree that these amendments are necessary to clarify these matters.
Amendment No. 521 would add an express reservation for the registration and funding of political parties. As hon Members will be aware, the Government will be introducing legislation for a national scheme of party registration, and party funding is currently being considered by the Neill committee. It is expected that such provision will be developed at a United Kingdom level. This amendment would ensure that these issues are reserved along with matters relating to the constitution and elections.

Mr. Donald Gorrie (Edinburgh, West)
The Liberal Democrats have two amendments. Amendment No. 486 is a paving amendment. Amendment No. 487 would 905 remove the reservation regarding the function of the Lord Lyon King of Arms in the granting of arms and the honours and dignities apart from his functions. This is not the world's most earth-shattering issue, although the matter of honours considerably excited the Scottish media recently.
Not everyone wants a coat of arms and it is not an important issue, but why should the Lord Lyon King of Arms and his staff be answerable to the Government in London rather than to the Parliament in Edinburgh? There seems to be no logic in that. Surely, if it has been accepted in a Government amendment that the Lord Lyon's legal functions should be dealt with by the Scottish system, all his other functions should as well, for the sake of tidiness. I am sure that the Scottish Parliament would not interfere with the normal way in which the Lord Lyon makes his decisions—although Lord Russell-Johnston, formerly a Member of the House of Commons, recently encountered enormous difficulties relating to his title. I gather, however, that that involved the Garter King of Arms. Certain hon. Members with much more distinguished careers than mine may have a vested interest in the matter; I simply think it tidy and logical for all the Lord Lyon's functions to be dealt with by the Scottish Parliament.
3.45 pm
Different Members will have different views about the honours system, but surely, whatever method is used to make recommendations to the Queen—who will eventually grant the honours—that process should go through the Scottish Parliament rather than some Minister in London. Again, our suggestion strikes me as sensible, tidy and logical. It will avoid the difficulties that arose recently, when various parties blamed various other parties. The buck should stop clearly with the Scottish Administration and the Scottish Parliament.
I think that our amendments are worth supporting, and I hope that the Government will consider them.

Mr. Dalyell
May I raise a question about the Crown Estate? I know that I am the object of suspicion whenever I say anything about that, but I ask my question in all seriousness and with good intent.
The Parliament building is to be erected on the Holyrood site. Am I right in thinking that the archaeology of the site is almost certain to be extremely important in relation to early mediaeval Edinburgh? Preliminary investigations by Mr. Gordon Barclay and others have produced evidence that there could be important findings under the site. The matter is relevant to the Crown Estate Commissioners, and I do not know under what other part of the Bill I could raise it.
Let me ask the Minister a question, which I do not expect him to answer off the top of his head. If he went to Frankfurt, he would see a remarkable development. After the bombing, a new museum was built on what turned out to be a very important archaeological site on which were Gallo-Roman remains. Those remains were put in the museum.
I know that a good deal of expense would be involved, but when public buildings—let alone parliamentary buildings—are erected, surely those in authority have some obligation to set an example. It is often said in the House that we must look after our archaeology. I do not 906 know how important the findings are likely to be—nor, I suspect, does anyone else—but I should like an assurance that the subject will be taken seriously, that proper inquiries will be made of the relevant authorities in Historic Scotland before there is any question of bulldozers or contractors going in, and that an arrangement will be reached with the contractors regarding what they will do.
The problem is that there could be time slippage. If archaeological work is done properly, it adds to costs. Nevertheless, we have a serious obligation to our history, and to the city of Edinburgh, at least to find out what is there, and not to rush things. We do not want important parts of Edinburgh's past, and Scotland's past, to be obliterated through haste.
What advice have the Government been given about the archaeology of the site and, indeed, the surrounding areas? May we be assured that the subject is being looked at? It is a subject to which some of us will return time and again.

Mr. McLeish
Plans for the redevelopment of the Holyrood site include an archaeological examination. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) about the importance of this matter and I am willing to write to him about it. I share his interest in this important issue.
Amendments Nos. 486 and 487 seek to devolve aspects of the functions of the Crown Estate Commissioners. We shall shortly debate the commissioners in more detail, so I shall say no more about the matter now. The amendments also seek to devolve the matter of honours and dignities so that the Scottish Parliament would be able to legislate on the Crown's right to grant honours. The ministerial function of recommending such honours would be transferred to Scottish Ministers.
Unfortunately, the Government cannot agree to those proposals. In our view, it is right that there should continue to be a unified system of dignity and honours covering the whole United Kingdom. However, the fact that that would remain a reserved matter does not mean that the Scottish Executive would be unable to propose who should receive honours. It is important that the Lord Lyon and his court will be devolved and that the function of granting arms will remain a reserved matter.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments made: No. 510, in page 59, line 12, leave out from beginning to first 'the' in line 13 and insert— 'Sub-paragraph (1) does not affect the reservation by paragraph 1 of honours and dignities or'. No. 511, in page 59, line 14, leave out from 'arms' to 'the' in line 17 and insert 'but this sub—paragraph does not apply to the Lord Lyon King of Arms in his judicial capacity. () Sub—paragraph (1) does not affect the reservation by paragraph 1 of'.— [Mr. McFall.]

Ms Roseanna Cunningham (Perth)
I beg to move amendment No. 345, in page 59, leave out line 17.

The Chairman
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 21, in page 59, line 17, after 'Commissioners', insert '(except for the rights and powers of the Commissioners in respect of the sea bed in Scotland).'. No. 346, in page 59, line 17, at end insert 'with the exception of the right of abolition of the Commissioner's control over the sea bed and foreshore, issues relating to mineral rights and base and precious metal deposits, the forfeited estates, ownership and regulation.'

Ms Cunningham
The amendments relate to the Crown Estate Commissioners, and the matter is of great concern in Scotland. Last week the hon. and learned Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) presented a ten-minute Bill about the Crown Estate Commissioners. The issue causes cross-party concern in Scotland. I shall listen carefully to the Minister in the hope of finding assurances that the reservation of so many powers that are exercised by the commissioners will in no way limit the new Parliament's ability to legislate effectively for land reform in Scotland. That is a cross-party priority and, if my memory serves me correctly, even former Tory Members have said that changes are needed.

Dr. Godman
As the hon. Lady knows, the activities of the Crown Estate Commissioners are critical to our fishing communities. Who are the commissioners and how are they appointed?

Ms Cunningham
I hope that we shall get more information about that. It is generally felt that the commissioners constitute one of the most secretive and unaccountable bodies in Scotland. I do not think that anyone would disagree that reform is urgently needed. Every year, the commissioners produce glossy material to highlight the range of their powers and activities. The material gives some information, but it does not tell us a great deal about the commissioners. It states what they think are their powers. One leaflet entitled "Scottish Estate" states: The Estate can broadly be divided into four sectors: Commercial Property, Agriculture and Forestry, Fish Farming and Marine". That is the matter that the hon. Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman) is concerned about. The leaflet continues: In addition to these four main areas of management, the Crown Estate in Scotland also comprised salmon fishings and mineral rights, including rights to gold. The Crown Estate comprises 1,000 acres in Scotland, including approximately half of Scotland's foreshore and almost all the sea bed around Scotland's coastline. That information comes from another Crown Estate Commissioners leaflet entitled "Marine". Apparently, that ownership gives the commissioners the right to issue and charge for consents for any activity which makes use of the resource". In effect, what it comes down to is that the Crown Estate controls most activity and development around the Scottish coast. In many cases, it charges excessively for mooring rights, often backdating the charges.
My hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) has recently had to deal with a case involving Gardenstown harbour in his constituency, where 908 the Crown Estate claimed ownership of the harbour sea bed and was thus going to charge mooring fees and seek centuries of backdated payments for use of the harbour. It took apparently extensive searches of the records in the national library of Scotland and the translation of a 16th-century Latin grant of land before the commissioners backed off and conceded that they had no rights in that area.

Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan)
To elaborate on the point slightly, Gardenstown is a voluntary harbour. It is a small community in my constituency. It is true that we escaped the imposition from the Crown Estate Commissioners—which would have disabled the harbour trust totally—only by coming up with a 16th century Scottish Crown document that exempted the harbour from such dues. The idea that a powerful organisation such as the Crown Estate should subject a voluntary harbour in a small village community to such pressure over so long a period illustrates the point that my hon. Friend makes: reform of what is happening the length and breadth of Scotland is long overdue.

Ms Cunningham
Indeed. My hon. Friend makes a fair point. The Crown Estate Commissioners want to take a substantial amount of money out of a small local community simply by exercising an ancient and meaningless Crown privilege.
In many areas, the Crown Estate Commissioners act as a direct barrier to economic development in Scotland with their interference in foreshore developments in particular and their role in the fish farming industry. They boast—I quote again from "Marine" It is difficult to think of many foreshore or seabed activities which do not involve the Crown Estate in some way". Hon. Members representing constituencies from around the Scottish coast will be able to illustrate the full extent and negative nature of much of that involvement. The Crown Estate's multi-million pound income is a drain on Scotland's rural economy and rural communities. It takes much out, but it is difficult to see what it gives in return.
The Scottish Land Commission, which was independently set up several years ago, spent two years investigating proposals for land reform. Much of its work of necessity touched on the powers of the Crown Estate Commissioners. It made sensible recommendations for reform, which would transfer the income powers of the Crown Estate Commissioners to local communities through directly elected land councils.
I know that the issue of land councils has been controversial recently. I understand that the Scottish Landowners Federation is a little wary of there being any community involvement in the issue of land usage, but I suggest that perhaps it needs to accept that the time is coming for change, and that it had best be part of change instead of attempting to stop it.
The moves proposed by the Scottish Land Commission and any attempt to develop industries such fish farming would be out of bounds for the Scottish Parliament if the Crown Estate Commissioners continue to be a reserved matter. As far as I understand it, the far-reaching proposals of the Scottish Land Commission could be barred by the Bill, but more mundane reform could also be prevented.
909 The Scottish Land Commission made proposals on the rationalisation of the ownership of mineral rights, which currently can be split between three owners, none of whom necessarily may be the owner of the land under which the minerals lie. That is nonsense. Reform is urgently required to allow the continued growth of our base and precious metal mining industry.
Similarly, bodies have made proposals for the rationalisation of fishing rights, but, with salmon ownership reserved to the Crown and Westminster, that simple sector will also be out of bounds for any land reform legislation in Scotland. I should like the Minister to explain why it appears that the hands of the Scottish Parliament are being tied in that fashion. I know that he and his colleagues have long talked about the opportunity for land reform in the Scottish Parliament, but, as we have seen, the continued reservation of the Crown Estate Commissioners would mean that the Parliament could adopt only a piecemeal approach to reform. That will not satisfy the expectations and demands for land reform that come daily from the people of Scotland.
I hope that the Minister will not tell us that land reform could be only topsoil-deep and that we shall not be able to legislate for what lies beneath our land; or that land reform will have to stop at the high-water mark, and that our beaches and sea lochs are off limits.
I hope that the Minister will be able to give the necessary assurances that the Parliament's hands will not be unduly tied by that reservation, or that he will at least say that the Government will consider the area, and perhaps table amendments on Report to ensure that if the Scottish Parliament wishes to make radical changes in land ownership and land use in Scotland, it will be able to do so. I believe that such an expectation is widespread in Scotland.

Dr. Godman
I have long been critical of the Crown Estate Commissioners, especially for their decisions concerning fish farming, which impinge on the activities of our commercial fishermen. I declare an interest. I am an honorary member of the Clyde Fishermen's Association, of which the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mrs. Michie) is an honorary president. Incidentally, we receive nothing for that onerous duty, but— [Interruption.] The Minister suggests to me from a sedentary position that the Scottish Parliament might change that type of thing. He obviously knows nothing about the fisherman members of the Clyde Fishermen's Association.
I am making a serious point. I believe that the Crown Estate Commissioners have taken some disastrous decisions regarding the installation of fish farms, especially sea fish farms—salmon farms. Several times, fishing organisations have objected to such decisions relating to the west coast. Given the powers of that secretive body of men—I say "men" because I suspect that there are no women members of the Crown Estate Commissioners, but I may be wrong—it is a matter of great regret that the Scottish Parliament will not have control of strategic decisions that profoundly affect our commercial fishermen.
Something needs to be done about the Crown Estate Commissioners, because their decisions on fish farming developments have harmed game fishermen and 910 fisherwomen over the years. Undoubtedly, there has been a dreadful decline in sea trout on the west coast. I know that rivers and lochs in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland have also suffered a reduction in sea trout catches, but I believe that our coastline and the activities there should be controlled by a Scottish Parliament. I regret that they are a reserved matter.
I ask the Minister a question to which I do not expect an answer today, but on which I should be extremely grateful if he would write to me. May I take it that the Fisheries Act 1705 will remain on the statute book? It is colloquially know as, and all hon. Members know it as, "the Queen Anne Act". I was prompted to ask that question by the intervention by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) because, as the Minister knows, the Queen Anne Act has important implications for our fishermen's use of harbours.
At the moment in Greenock, we have a dispute with the Renfrewshire Enterprise Company about the development of East India harbour. When. Mr. John MacKay, then Scottish Fisheries Minister, introduced the Inshore Fishing Act 1984, my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) and I were able to persuade him to retain the Queen Anne Act. I hope that the Minister, who has a keen interest in the fisheries, can confirm that, if these reserved powers are left with the Crown Estate Commissioners, the Queen Anne Act will remain sacrosanct.
There will be a gap in powers controlling coastline activities. I think that the Crown Estate Commissioners' powers extend six miles from the low-water mark, and therefore cover some traditional inshore fishing grounds—which could be interfered with by the crass decision making of that secretive body. I have serious concerns about that matter. If we are to have some type of quango protecting our coastline, it should be composed of ordinary mortals—people who have more than a passing interest in coastal fishing and related industries.
I should like the Crown Estate Commissioners to be kicked into touch or to work down here, in England and Wales. Our coastline should be protected by a Scottish Parliament.

Mr. James Wallace (Orkney and Shetland)
Our amendment No. 21 would allow devolution of the Crown Estate Commissioners' rights and powers in sea bed matters, and I should like to echo much of what has been said by the hon. Members for Perth (Ms Cunningham) and for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman). On Tuesday last week, I outlined my concerns in some detail in introducing a ten-minute rule Bill. I shall therefore not detain the Committee by repeating all those concerns.
There are serious problems with the Crown Estate Commissioners' activities—particularly in granting sea bed leases; charging rents to the salmon farming industry, which is effectively a tax on production, imposed at a time when the industry is in difficulty; and imposing rents on non-profit making marinas, for mooring charges for small craft. Marinas that have been built up by local fund raising are being subjected to the rent levels imposed on gin palaces and some of the bigger mainland marinas.
Serious problems are also being caused by the Crown Estate Commissioners' charges on piers and other infrastructure. The Scottish Office and the European 911 Union have provided money to build piers and ferry terminals, to assist in maintaining vital transport links in many of the isles. However, the commissioners have come along and lumped a big charge on that infrastructure, taking back some of the money that has been given. An examination of their activities is long overdue.
If the Scottish Parliament had the ability to deal with some of the Crown Estate Commissioners' rental activities, there might be much more equity in the way in which Crown Estate tenants across Scotland are dealt with.

Mrs. Ray Michie (Argyll and Bute)
I reinforce the fact that hon. Members—and the Minister, I hope—should understand that the Crown Estate Commissioners are deeply resented in many parts of Scotland, particularly after they suddenly came along with a helicopter to identify and slap rents on little piers and jetties that had no commercial value. Everyone thought that that was appalling.

Mr. Wallace
I can readily understand how my hon. Friend's constituents felt. In recent years, Crown Estate Commissioners have taken a much tougher—a draconian—line on the matter. We heard about the case of Gardenstown, where the commissioners attempted to get money from rentals that they had not attempted to obtain for years, decades or even centuries before.
The Secretary of State for Scotland has powers, under the Crown Estate Act 1961, to give directions to the Crown Estate on matters relating to the Crown Estate in Scotland. Perhaps the Minister will tell us how—if the Government reject this group of amendments—those powers might be exercised after devolution.
There is a consultation paper on transferring to local authorities some of the powers to regulate salmon farming—especially environmental regulations—that are currently exercised by the Crown Estate. I am grateful to the Minister for Home Affairs and Devolution, Scottish Office for sending me a letter, which I received today, dealing with matters that I raised with him. He said that he does not foresee any difficulty in a transfer of powers meeting the terms of paragraph 3(1) of schedule 5, which states that the reservation of powers does not apply to property belonging to Her Majesty in right of the Crown or belonging to a government department".
It should therefore be possible to extend local authorities' powers in regulating salmon farming.
Such an extension would command widespread consent. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us when it might be achieved, because it is long overdue.

Mr. McLeish
I share the concerns about land reform outlined by the hon. Member for Perth (Ms Cunningham). While it is not for this House to determine the priorities of the new Scottish Parliament, I sincerely hope that land reform will be an urgent priority of that Parliament and covered by one of the first Bills to come before Holyroodhouse. I hope that that provides some reassurance.
912 I also share the concerns about fishing expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman), although I am not sure that fishing should be elevated to the all-embracing passion that he attributed to me. Nevertheless, I am happy to correspond with him about the 1705 Act.
I did send the hon. and learned Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) a letter. I apologise for its late arrival, but I hope that it will deal with some of the matters relating to the Crown Estate.
I now deal specifically with the points covered in the amendments. They seek variously to devolve the Crown Estate Commissioners and aspects of their functions and of the property and interests forming part of the Crown Estate itself. In the Government' s view, it would be wrong for the Committee to accept the amendments. Their wording suggests some uncertainty about what precisely will be reserved by the present wording of the Bill. As I shall try to explain, some of the matters that the amendments seek to devolve are not reserved.
It may be helpful if I explain what is and is not caught by the reservation. The devolution White Paper made it clear that the reserved matters would include the Crown, and that is given effect to in paragraph 1 of schedule 5. As hon. Members may be aware, the Crown Estate Commissioners are responsible for managing and regulating the Crown Estate, which is that part of the sovereign's hereditary possessions from which the revenue has, since 1760, been surrendered to the Exchequer as part of the civil list arrangements. That arrangement and the role of the commissioners in it will be reserved matters.
However, paragraph 3(1) provides that paragraph 1 of the schedule does not reserve property belonging to Her Majesty in right of the Crown. Therefore, the property and interests forming the Crown Estate, as distinct from the Crown Estate Commissioners, is not a reserved matter.
The Crown Estate would be subject to the Scottish Parliament's legislation about devolved matters, such as planning, environmental protection and fisheries. The Scottish Parliament would, for example, be able to legislate to implement the current proposals to extend offshore the role of planning authorities, to cover marine fish fanning. In the context of legislating about a harbour or port, the Scottish Parliament could also extinguish public rights over the foreshore or sea bed affected by it.
The revenues from the Crown Estate, which are passed to the UK Exchequer, would be reserved by paragraph 3(3), which reserves the hereditary revenue of the Crown.
My noble Friend Lord Sewel announced proposals on 10 November for responsibility for planning control in relation to marine fish farming to be passed to planning authorities. We are planning on the basis that the necessary legislation would be made by the Scottish Parliament.
The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, my hon. Friend the Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald), announced on 17 December that new statutory procedures for the licensing of dredging of marine minerals in Scotland would be introduced to replace the existing non-statutory procedure.
The current power of direction over the Crown Estate Commissioners, which is shared by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Chancellor of the 913 Exchequer, would not pass to the Scottish Ministers. It is right that it should remain with the United Kingdom Government, in line with the reservation of the commissioners.
I trust that, in the light of those explanations, and particularly of the assurance that the reservation of the Crown Estate Commissioners will not affect the Scottish Parliament's competence over planning, fisheries and the protection of the marine environment, the hon. Lady will withdraw the amendment.

Mr. Salmond
These matters are rather involved and are of great interest to rural communities. I think that I heard the Minister say, in effect, that the devolved Scottish Parliament will have less authority in terms of powers of direction over the Crown Estate Commissioners than is currently exercised by the Secretary of State for Scotland. Did he say that? If so, will he reflect again before Report?

Mr. McLeish
Indeed. I have tried to explain that the current position will allow us to exercise power over planning and the environment, but the current power of direction over the Crown Estate Commissioners, which is jointly shared, will not pass to the Scottish Ministers.I am keen to be helpful so I hope to clarify that further for the hon. Gentleman. In the light of my comments and assurances, and in view of that fact that we, too, regard these matters as important, I hope that the hon. Member for Perth will withdraw the amendment.

Ms Roseanna Cunningham
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made: No. 512, in page 59, line 18, leave out 'Subject to sub-paragraph (3)'.

No. 513, in page 59, line 19, leave out 'a government department' and insert

'any person acting on behalf of the Crown'.

No. 514, in page 59, line 20, leave out 'a government department' and insert

'any person acting on behalf of the Crown'.

No. 515, in page 59, leave out line 24 and insert—

'() Sub-paragraph (1) does not affect the reservation by paragraph 1 of'.

No. 516, in page 59, line 26, at end insert—

'() the compulsory acquisition of property held or used by a Minister of the Crown'.

No. 517, in page 59, line 27, leave out 'Subject to sub-paragraph (2)'.

No. 518, in page 59, line 29, leave out 'Paragraph 1 does reserve' and insert

'Sub-paragraph (1) does not affect the reservation by paragraph 1 of'.

No. 519, in page 59, line 32, leave out sub-paragraph (a).

No. 520, in page 59, line 35, leave out sub-paragraph(c).

No. 521, in schedule 5, page 59, line 35, at end insert—

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Donald Dewar)
I beg to move amendment No. 522, in page 59, line 38, leave out from 'European' to second 'and' and insert 'Communities (and their institutions)'.

The Chairman
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 72, in page 59, line 45, at end insert— '(c) dealings directly related to international agreements affecting devolved matters'. No. 73, in page 59, line 45, at end insert— '(c) acting on behalf of the United Kingdom in relation to any matter to which that sub-paragraph applies, in respect of which the economic or social interests of the United Kingdom are located solely, or predominantly, in Scotland. (3) Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, fisheries and forestry are matters falling within sub-paragraph (2)(c).'. No. 261, in page 59, line 45, at end insert— '(3) "Assisting" in sub-paragraph (2) includes, where a Minister of the Crown deems it appropriate, attending with and participating in the United Kingdom delegation in any international forum, including the Council of Ministers of the European Union.'. New clause 13—Delegations to Europe—

'(1) When matters in relation to which the Parliament has competence are being discussed between the United Kingdom and any of the institutions of the European Union, the appropriate Scottish Ministers shall be entitled to accompany United Kingdom Government Ministers and to participate in such discussions on behalf of the Parliament.

(2) Where the matters to be discussed under subsection (1) are non-reserved matters that only affect Scotland and do not affect other parts of the United Kingdom, Scottish Ministers shall be the sole representatives of the United Kingdom.

(3) In appropriate cases, on non-reserved matters affecting both Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom, a Scottish Minister, with the agreement of a Minister of the Crown may lead the United Kingdom delegation.'.
New clause 14—Representative office for Scotland in Brussels—

'(1) The Parliament shall establish a European Union representative office in Brussels.

(2) The office shall have the functions of providing advice to, and carrying out consultation with, the institutions of the European Union on matters affecting Scotland.'.
New clause 15—Secretary of State to consult Scottish Parliament about EU negotiations—

(1) Before any Minister of the Crown attends a meeting of the Council of Ministers of the European Union at which consideration is to be given to any issue related to devolved matters, the Secretary of State shall consult the Parliament and seek its views on the issue.

(2) Following a meeting of the Council of Ministers at which any issue related to a devolved matter has been discussed, the Secretary of State shall forthwith make a report to the Parliament on the substance and the outcome of the meeting and shall respond to any questions that the members of the Parliament may put to him.'.

Mr. Dewar
The House will be glad to know that amendment No.522 is a minor technical amendment on a matter that in other areas and at other times might have entranced us for a considerable time. The European Union does not have legal personality and, therefore, does not 915 have institutions in the way implied by the present drafting of the Bill. The amendment corrects the reference to the European Union and refers instead to the European Communities (and their institutions)".

Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex)
Is the Secretary of State aware that, under the Amsterdam treaty, the European Union takes on legal personality?

Mr. Dewar
That is an interesting point on which I am quite happy to take further advice. However, as the Amsterdam treaty has not yet been ratified, it is something of a hypothetical possibility. The fact that the treaty has not yet come into force is a matter of some importance. Although its terms and contents are of considerable future interest, they are not relevant at the moment.
I have enormous respect for the legal erudition of the right hon. —and indeed learned—Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram): every whigmaleerie will be added to his title in his due honour. However, my understanding is that the proper way of achieving the intended effect is for the Bill to refer to the European Communities and their institutions. They are in the plural as they include those relating to iron and steel, Euratom and one or two others. I hope that the Committee will accept that.

Mr. Ancram
rose

The Chairman
Order. The Secretary of State has sat down.

Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray)
That was quite an interesting exchange between two Scottish legal personalities on amendment No. 552, which materialised very late in the day. I shall speak to amendments Nos. 72 and 73 in my name and the names of my hon. Friends.
The amendments, which were tabled immediately after Second Reading, seek to ensure that the Scottish Parliament is a genuine part of the international community. The decisions taken on 11 and 12 September represent a major step forward by all the peoples of Scotland. Indeed, 1997 reversed what happened in 1979 and reflected the growing confidence among the peoples of Scotland that they should have their own parliament. The international community also recognised that that decision represented Alba's emergence into the community of nations and not simply the establishment of a chamber in Edinburgh. As someone said to me recently, it is not a matter of raising a flag above a building somewhere in Scotland; it is an opportunity for future generations. I very much endorse that view.
It is important to recognise that the world has moved on since 1979, and so have our continental neighbours. For many years, I have had the pleasure of serving on the Select Committee on European Legislation. It is important that we recognise the significance of the direction, the directives and the regulations that emerge through the acquis communitaire that some hon. Members resent. There is a general feeling that we should all be working together.
Other countries, such as Belgium and Spain, decentralise decision making. In the wake of the Maastricht treaty, great play was made of subsidiarity. That concept has substance in Belgium and Spain, but it seems to involve sidelining Scotland.
916 In January 1997 at the Scottish Grand Committee, the right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), who was then the shadow spokesman, said that Scotland's Parliament should have the same observer status as the German Lander at appropriate meetings"— [Official Report, Scottish Grand Committee, 13 January 1997; c. 29.] Articles 23 and 50 of the basic law give the lander full constitutional rights of information from the federal Government on the European legislative programme. I would like that for Scotland's Parliament. The lander also have the constitutional right to express opinions on European Union legislation. That opinion is binding in their core areas of competence.
We should all be concerned about the core areas of competence that have been delegated to the Scottish Parliament. I see that the hon. Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman), who has served on the Select Committee with me, is listening with particular interest. Fishing should be a core area of competence for the Scottish Parliament, as should agriculture and forestry, because they are vital to Scotland's economic future.

Mr. Dalyell
Is the hon. Lady saying that representatives of the Scottish Parliament in Brussels or Strasbourg should speak for the fishing and forestry interests of England?

Mrs. Ewing
If the hon. Gentleman hauds his wheesht for a moment, he will hear the answer. The Scottish Office leads on forestry for the United Kingdom. There is no reason why we should not consider other areas of competence.
Since Maastricht, those competencies have been adopted into German law. A land representative can be the sole German representative in the Council of Ministers. That has happened four times in the past two years.
I am a rural Member of Parliament, but I used to represent a more urban constituency. We are not saying that every power specified in the schedule should be preserved. The Parliament should move forward on what issues are reserved powers, not in a selfish way but in the important international context.

Mr. Dalyell
I do not want to be difficult or try to catch the hon. Lady out in a cheap way, but she is dealing with a matter of central importance. Will she specify the four occasions on which the German lander represented the Bonn Government in the Council of Ministers, as she has claimed?

Mrs. Ewing
Although I could detain the Committee for some substantial time by doing so, the relevant documentation is in the Library. The Ministers to whom I referred were lead Ministers on behalf of the federal Government on four occasions over those two years. We should all recognise that.

Mr. Ancram
The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) has raised an important point. I understand that the lander are allowed to make representation in the Council by their own law where it is a matter of exclusive 917 legislative competence of the lander. What would the hon. Lady regard as exclusive legislative competence in those terms in relation to the United Kingdom and Scotland?

Mrs. Ewing
If the right hon. Gentleman had read the amendments, he would have seen the examples that I have already given. He obviously wants to reserve all powers permanently in Westminster, but we are arguing that, where Scotland has particular interest, it should take the lead in discussions in conjunction with other UK countries. That would not be a major problem. On particular issues—fishing is one of the critical ones to us—we would want very much to have the lead.

Mr. Ancram
rose

Mrs. Ewing
I am being very polite, Sir Alan. I realise that this is a time-limited debate, and I would like to make further points. I shall be courteous in giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, and thereafter I should like to complete my remarks.

The Chairman
As the hon. Lady knows, it is entirely up to her whether she surrenders her time by giving way.

Mr. Ancram
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. We are in Committee, after all, which I am sure she appreciates is slightly different from a normal debate in the House. The matter to which she referred is of concern; she will realise that our amendments also try to move matters forward in a certain way. She will see in the documents to which she has referred that German competence relates to exclusive competence. Is she satisfied that that would cover the areas that she is trying to cover with regard to Scotland? I do not think that it would.

Mrs. Ewing
The right hon. Gentleman is trying to ensure that Westminster will always have the right to determine the issues that will be led by the Scottish Parliament. I am proposing that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to determine the areas in which it will lead in the Council of Ministers.
In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) on Second Reading, the Secretary of State for Scotland argued that we should not necessarily compare ourselves to the German lander. He suggested that we should look at Catalonian and Basque territories, which did not have the statutory rights given to the lander. I emphasise again that Europe and the world have moved on. Since that speech, the Spanish Parliament has voted for a guaranteed right of representation for Catalonia, and for the Basque countries in devolved areas. The Secretary of State should look very carefully at that.
I should also like to draw the Committee's attention to the situation in Belgium. Amendment No. 72 would give Scotland the same status as that entrusted to Community and regional Ministers under the special law of 8 August 1980, as amended on 5 May 1993, on international relations of communities and regions. In effect, the amendment would take away the Whitehall veto, which does not exist in countries such as Belgium, where devolved and exclusive powers have been recognised.
918 It was reported in The Herald today that the Scottish Office is to set up permanent representation in Brussels. I do not know whether that is true or whether it has been trailed by a spin doctor, but I would like clarification.
My understanding is that two posts will be established in Brussels. Will they be civil servants or people appointed by the Scottish Parliament? Will a Minister from the Scottish Parliament lead any permanent representation? Will they be a part of the UK's permanent representation or the Committee of Permanent Representatives? Until we know, will the Scottish Parliament be any different from the 2,000-plus lobbying organisations that have permanent representation in Brussels?

Ms Rachel Squire (Dunfermline, West)
I wish to comment briefly on how developing a relationship between the Scottish Parliament, the United Kingdom Parliament and the European Union gives us real opportunities to tackle the democratic deficit in our country and the perceived problems in the relationship between this country and the rest of Europe.
I support Government amendment No. 522. We must recognise that Europe is in a process of constant change, as are the Governments of Europe. Today, for example, Governments from the former eastern European bloc are meeting European Union countries, eager to discuss the details of their membership. Europe is enlarging, and there are tremendous opportunities and challenges for us in developing a European Community that is of benefit to everyone.
I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing), with whom I used, at times, to endure the Select Committee on European Legislation. We would listen to the somewhat contrasting views expressed by the various members of the Committee, under the excellent chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood).
I appreciate the demand for a distinctive Scottish voice and identity on issues affecting us in our relationships with Europe. My concern about amendments Nos. 72 and 73 is that they adopt a narrow nationalistic approach, when we should be looking to develop an international agenda. The Scottish Parliament must help to promote that international agenda, and we must develop a partnership between the Scottish and UK Parliaments.
We all recognise that there are distinctive Scottish issues in areas of European legislation. However, the fishermen of the Scilly Isles may feel that they have a lot in common with the fishermen of the western isles. The industrial devastation done to parts of Scotland during the period in office of the previous Government has been experienced in parts of northern England and the midlands. In terms of the reform of the common agricultural policy, farmers in north Wales may have common interests with farmers in Scotland.
I would certainly oppose an amendment which seems to suggest that we are better off going it alone or adopting an isolationist approach. That tends to be the approach of the official Opposition, who seem to think that it will benefit the United Kingdom to go it alone. The experience of our European neighbours with devolved government is 919 that working in partnership—in our case via the Scottish and UK Parliaments—leads to a stronger voice and better representation of their clear interests.

Dr. Godman
My hon. Friend has referred to enlargement of the EU. Some of us believe that there can be no such enlargement without reform of the common fisheries policy and the common agricultural policy. Some of the states seeking membership are littoral nations with huge fishing fleets; we could not allow them in without a revised CFP.

Ms Squire
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend's strong representations on the fishing industry, and I certainly recognise his concerns. We must not, however, tie ourselves down when amending the Bill. We need to recognise the continual changes and pressures, and ensure that we can respond to them coherently.

Dr. Liam Fox (Woodspring)
The hon. Lady has used fishing to illustrate the common interests that exist across different parts of the UK. Would it not be more logical to argue in favour of reserving fishing to the UK Parliament, not devolving it to the Scottish Parliament, where there will be differences even within Scotland?

Ms Squire
Unlike the hon. Gentleman, I know that Scottish fishing interests predominate in the United Kingdom. Hence, the voice of Scottish fishermen, heard in a Scottish Parliament—and also in the UK and European Parliaments—will benefit fishermen throughout the United Kingdom. Opposing a Scottish Parliament, as the hon. Gentleman's party has done, and opposing the idea that an area of the country with a distinct identity and with distinct interests can say things in Europe that will benefit the whole United Kingdom, is wrong.
The hon. Member for Moray mentioned press speculation that an office may be set up for the Scottish Parliament in Brussels. I am well aware that Scotland Europa promotes the interests of non-governmental bodies in Brussels, and that the UK permanent representatives have worked well with the Scottish Office. I hope that, on this occasion, the media speculation turns out to be correct. Such an office would help to give us a strong voice. The fact is that the sooner a country starts to make its views known to the European Commission, the better its chances of influencing draft directives and regulations.
I have been assured that the Scottish Parliament will be able to legislate to give effect to European Community obligations; that Scottish Ministers will have the power to give effect to regulations; and that the Scottish Parliament will be able to scrutinise and debate proposed legislation. One reason why I am so enthusiastic about the establishment of a Scottish Parliament is that it can take a lead in bringing the EU closer to the people, not just of Scotland but of the United Kingdom. It could develop a political framework that would be seen to be far more in touch with the daily concerns of people such as fishermen, farmers and workers in previously heavily industrialised areas.
The Bill offers the possibility of closing the perceived gap between the realities of everyday life and the political process, especially that involving Europe, which all too 920 often seems to the general public to consist of a bunch of faceless bureaucrats. Devolution represents an opportunity to bring the European Union and its decisions closer to the people, and to influence legislation at a much earlier stage, to ensure that it benefits the Scottish people and the people of the United Kingdom as a whole.

Mr. Ancram
The hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Ms Squire) seems to have misunderstood the purpose of the amendments. She said that she wanted a strong place for the Scottish Parliament through a strong United Kingdom representation in Europe. It is precisely because there is no provision for that in the Bill that my hon. Friends and 1, and Members from other parties, have tabled amendments to try to ensure that that happens.
I am taking advice, but I am informed by those who understand matters European that, even given the Secretary of State's amendment providing for a position that adheres at present and not for one that is contingent, as he told us, that is still wrong. I am told that the Maastricht treaty removed the word "communities" and inserted the word "community" in the singular. If that is the case, the right hon. Gentleman's amendment would still be incorrect. Would he like to check whether that is the case, and if so, would he like to withdraw his amendment and try again?

Mr. Dewar
I shall take further advice. If we have got it wrong, that will cause real excitement in another place. Their lordships will no doubt look forward to it as a major clash. In the mysterious ways that information appears in the hands of Front-Bench spokesmen, I have a brief note that says, Does not have legal personality"— that is, the European Union even after Amsterdam.

Mr. Ancram
I am told that the argument that I am advancing may have moved forward or backward from there. It refers to the Maastricht treaty, which, the right hon. Gentleman may find, changed the term to "community", in which case he will no doubt make the amendment in due course.
I listened to the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing), and I understand what she is trying to achieve, but I am not sure that her examples from Europe are helpful. The German lander can exercise their right of representation only where it is a matter of their exclusive legislative competence, and where the federal Government have no competence. By that definition, under the Bill as presently framed, there would be few areas in which such competence could be exercised.
The position in Spain is, if anything, weaker. The Library brief state: Regions do not participate directly in European decision-making on many areas, including agriculture, fisheries, industry, economic and so on, which are within their competence, for various reasons. The German and Spanish examples may not be the most helpful, to the hon. Lady's cause or to mine.
4.45 pm
As I have made clear during our deliberations, I am concerned about the Bill being implemented in a way that leaves gaps that could cause immense confrontation 921 between London and Edinburgh. That would be bad for devolution and bad for the Union. We probably share enough of a common interest to want that to be avoided.
There is a distinct gap. All we have is the rather strange reference in schedule 5, paragraph 6(2)(b), which refers, in relation to the European Union and its institutions, to assisting Ministers of the Crown in relation to any matter to which that sub-paragraph applies. "Assisting" is the most unsatisfactory word, which could stretch from licking envelopes to doing something more important. To leave it at that in the Bill is a weakness. I have said that from the beginning. When I originally saw that, first in the White Paper and then in the Bill, I thought that the Government had missed something, as Governments occasionally do.
I want to revisit the situation today. The last time that I raised the matter, on Second Reading, I was asked why I was worried, because matters worked satisfactorily at present, and nothing had changed. My view of the Bill is that matters have changed dramatically.
At present, Scottish Office Ministers are members of the United Kingdom Government. They bear collective responsibility for the collective decisions of that Government. When they go to Brussels to a Council of Ministers—I understand that the Secretary of State or one of his Ministers may be going fairly soon—they go as UK Ministers, fully able to represent the United Kingdom, as any other UK Minister can. What will have changed is that, after devolution, there will be two Administrations and two sets of Ministers, and they will not necessarily be the same people, and not necessarily even of the same view or the same party.
It is not enough to say that nothing has changed, and that matters can be left to the good will of the parties concerned. We must write into the statute some assurance that the voice of Scotland will be heard. The current position is that the Scottish Minister can speak for the United Kingdom, bringing Scotland's case to bear when he does so. It never happened to me when I was a Scottish Office Minister, because I was not in the areas that were concerned with Europe, but colleagues of mine went to Europe and argued the Scottish case within the United Kingdom context. When Ministers have done so, they come back and are answerable to the United Kingdom Parliament for what they have done.
That situation will have changed. There will be two Administrations, served by two sets of civil servants—I shall deal with them later—who may not be of one mind. If the Scottish Minister were to represent the United Kingdom, he would not be able to come back to the House and give account of the representation that he had made. Much is different, and it is not enough to rest on the complacent approach that the Government have taken so far.
My understanding is that, where there is a United Kingdom position, it is arrived at as a result of much preparatory work done by civil servants in Whitehall. Civil servants come from the Scottish Office to the Cabinet Office or to another Department, and together, as civil servants operating to the same Government, they come to a common position, which is the position taken in Brussels.
In future—we do not know the details—if the Scottish view is to be represented, Scottish civil servants who are answerable not to this Parliament but to the Scottish 922 Parliament, will come down and presumably take part in the preparations not as part of the same civil service, but as parts of different civil services, possibly with different loyalties.
In those circumstances, how will a common position be arrived at, so that the Scots can be assured that the voice of Scotland will be properly heard? That is a serious question. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State laughs, but there are many in Scotland who take the question seriously, as do I.
This area, above all others, has the potential for creating conflict between England and Scotland. Imagine what would happen if a situation arose in which the position taken by the UK Government largely reflected the English interest, because that was where the Minister at the talks came from, and ignored the Scottish interest. There would be an outcry in Scotland. Believing as I do in the preservation of the Union, I have a strong incentive to avoid that happening.
I was given the other day by some Scottish fishermen an example that I had not thought of—I share it with the House, because it is relevant. They asked what would happen some time in the future, even if the two Administrations were the same political colour, if, just before a Fisheries Council, the Spaniards got hold of the MAFF Minister and said, "Look, we can do a deal overall on the common fisheries policy. We know that you don't like us coming into the channel and into Cornish waters, so we'll withdraw from there, if you'll quietly let us abolish the Shetland box." If that were to happen, there would be major Scottish interest in retaining the Shetland box. The Scottish fishermen asked—this is their hypothesis, not mine—"Where is the incentive for MAFF to ensure that that did not occur?"

Dr. Godman
Can the right hon. Gentleman recall, from his days in the Scottish Office, whether tensions arose among Scottish and English fisheries Ministers vis-a-vis Fisheries Council meetings, total allowable catches, quotas and so on? If there were such tensions, how were they resolved?

Mr. Ancram
I was not personally involved in such negotiations. However, during my latter days in Northern Ireland, there were considerable discussions between the Agriculture Ministers of Northern Ireland, Scotland and England about the question of accredited herds in relation to bovine spongiform encephalopathy. Northern Ireland had an advantage in that area, and we discussed whether various parts of the United Kingdom should be treated separately. At the end of the day, the issues were resolved because the Ministers involved came from the same party and were members of the same Government. They were able to reach a common position for which they were then bound to accept collective responsibility. That is the reality of the present situation.
After devolution, that position will no longer necessarily adhere. It certainly will not adhere that the Scottish Minister will be from the same Government and have the same loyalties and collective responsibility as his colleague from London. We must address that difference in some way in terms of the legislation, and that is what we are attempting to do.

Mr. Salmond
I shall give the right hon. Gentleman a specific example involving fisheries in the late 1980s. For 923 several years, the then Scottish fisheries Minister, Lord Sanderson, favoured a decommissioning scheme. He expressed that position privately to colleagues and it was well known in the fishing industry. Unfortunately, the then Minister responsible for fisheries in MAFF opposed a decommissioning scheme because of his personal experiences in the early 1980s. Will the right hon. Gentleman remind hon. Members what happened during those years regarding that key area of fisheries policy, which was absolutely central to the prospects of the Scottish fishing industry? Whose view prevailed—that of Scotland or that of London?

Mr. Ancram
We believe that the Bill presently provides no assurances to the people of Scotland, and I understand that the purpose of the amendments proposed by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) is similar to our own. However, every time I try to explain why it is important that there be some provision in the Bill, the hon. Gentleman tries to suggest that my argument is wrong. For someone trying to achieve a particular purpose, the hon. Gentleman is putting political expediency before his principles on this occasion. We will not do that because we are trying genuinely to put a provision into the Bill—and I shall turn to the purposes of our amendments in a moment.
We are told that the matter will be arranged by concordat. We shall consider concordats later in Committee, and I do not wish to pre-empt that discussion. A concordat is a non-statutory agreement. We know from the helpful note on concordats produced by the Scottish Office that they are not legally enforceable. They will not be subject to approval by this place or by the Scottish Parliament, and are likely to be signed between civil servants and officials rather than between Ministers, except on specific occasions.
The note states that concordats will set down common processes and the main features of good working relationships, rather than specify substantive outcomes. We are talking about regulations or provisions by which Scotland may be assured that it will have a voice in the councils of the European Union. The definition of concordat does not cover those matters. Even if it did, concordats are not legally enforceable. They can be unilaterally breached at any time and, if that occurs, there can be no legal retribution.
I agree with the view expressed by the Scottish Fishermen's Federation in the paper that it sent to us. The federation made it clear that it is very suspicious about whether the concordats will ultimately deliver what the Government intend. The paper states: The Government's White Paper ignores it completely whilst implying that the handling of fisheries policy between MAFF and the Scottish Executive should not involve significant change from current practice; the Scotland Bill, as currently framed, leaves the power in European Fisheries negotiations in the hands of London, and makes no attempt at all to recognise the dominant position of the Scottish Industry, whereas what we know, unofficially, of the Draft Concordats which are meant to regulate relations between Whitehall and Edinburgh, provides us with no comfort on the issues outlined in this note. 924 I believe that a matter of such importance should be addressed on the face of the Bill: it should not be left to the whim and invitation of future Governments at Westminster.

Mr. Wallace
The right hon. Gentleman claims that his amendment will ensure that Scotland has a say. Amendment No. 261 uses the words: where a Minister of the Crown deems it appropriate". What happens if there is some kind of breakdown? In such circumstances, a Minister of the Crown might deem it inappropriate.

Mr. Ancram
I shall turn to my amendments. I freely admit that it is difficult to find the means—which is why I criticised the comments of the hon. Member for Moray—of constitutionally providing a role to a Scottish Minister in terms of representing the whole United Kingdoms. I have tried to raise that issue before, but I was brushed off. It remains a difficult constitutional position to achieve.
Hon. Members must view our two sets of amendments in the round. New clause 15 sets out to try to build up a provision whereby the United Kingdom Minister would be required to consult the Scottish Parliament and seek its views on any devolved issues that may arise. There would have to be consultation before the Council of Ministers meeting. After that meeting, the Minister would have to report on and respond to questions regarding events at the Council of Ministers. The new clause would create a direct link between the delegate to the European Council of Ministers, in the person of the United Kingdom Minister, and the Scottish Parliament both before and after the event. That link is not in the Bill at present.
In amendment No. 261, we seek to give statutory framework to the intention that the Government stated when they introduced the White Paper but which does not appear in the Bill: where it is deemed appropriate, a Scottish Minister could attend and participate in the United Kingdom delegation. By putting that provision in the Bill, we are providing an assurance that the Government can give only verbally at present, because it does not appear in writing.
While it may be easier for the Government to believe that, after devolution, everything will be so friendly and co-operative that no one will ever fall out, I urge them to look closely at the opinion polls in Scotland. The Government should consider whether they will see that degree of co-operation at the beginning of the Scottish Parliament. Even if they do, the Government have a duty and a responsibility to legislate not just for this year and next year, but for the future.
We are addressing interests of fundamental importance to Scotland in terms of fishing—Scottish fisheries form a predominant part of the United Kingdom industry—and agriculture, which has specific requirements. At present, the situation is uncertain and unhappy because there is nothing on the face of the Bill.
I ask the Secretary of State to look closely at our proposals. He should stop being complacent. He must understand that, if one buries one's head in the sand, one tends to leave exposed other parts of one's anatomy that, if one is not careful, others will come up and kick. The Secretary of State could avoid that consequence by accepting our amendments.

Mr. Douglas Alexander (Paisley, South)
I shall direct my remarks to amendments Nos. 72 and 73, to which the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) spoke. In the Bill, foreign relations, including our relations with Europe, are a matter reserved to Westminster, and remain the responsibility of the British Government. The devolution scheme endorsed so overwhelmingly by the Scottish people on 11 September last year will take place within the enduring framework of the United Kingdom. That is what the people of Scotland voted for.
Amendments Nos. 72 and 73 run contrary to the thrust of the Bill. Amendment No. 72 seeks to devolve dealings directly related to international agreements that affect only devolved matters. I must admit that I had difficulty imagining what such matters would be and how many there would be. Amendment No. 73 proposes to devolve responsibility for the conduct of international relations on behalf of the whole United Kingdom in areas where the majority of the United Kingdom interest lies within Scotland.
In effect, the amendments propose that foreign policy be directed from Edinburgh. To that extent, they owe more to the theory of independence within Europe than devolution.

Mr. Salmond
The hon. Gentleman's colleagues might help him out. I seem to remember a document of the Scottish Constitutional Convention which said that, where appropriate, Scottish Ministers could lead UK delegations. Am I right, or am I wrong?

Mr. Alexander
It is still right. I shall come to that matter directly.
In effect, the amendments propose independence in Europe rather than the devolutionary scheme on the face of the Bill. I need hardly remind the hon. Gentleman or, indeed, the Committee, that, whenever independence has been offered to the Scottish people, it has been overwhelmingly rejected.

Mrs. Ewing
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Alexander
No, I have already given way.
The Bill strikes a far better balance in the interests of the people of Scotland. The Scottish Parliament will, of course, continue to scrutinise European proposals, and Scottish Ministers—to answer the hon. Gentleman's query—will be involved in the domestic formulation of UK policy, and will have a role to play in the relevant meetings of the European Councils of Ministers, and in other European negotiations while devolved matters are discussed.

Mr. Salmond
Will Scottish Ministers have the ability to lead a UK delegation, as was once promised by the Scottish Constitutional Convention?

Mr. Alexander
Yes, as part of the UK delegation, which is the critical point and the failing of the amendments as drafted. The Bill avoids independence in Europe by the back door. It ensures that Scotland continues to enjoy the benefits of being one of the major players in the European Union, and to that extent is in total contradiction of independence in Europe—the policy of the Scottish National party.

Mr. Wallace
We start from the view that the United Kingdom is a signatory to the European treaties, and therefore the relationships are first and foremost between the United Kingdom and the European Union. In this group of amendments, recognising that fundamental truth, we are trying to find ways to ensure that the Scottish interest is best safeguarded.
It was reassuring and welcome that the Government said in the White Paper Ministers and officials of the Scottish Executive should have a role to play in … Council meetings and other negotiations and although the UK lead Minister will retain overall responsibility … Scottish Executive Ministers could speak for the UK in Councils in appropriate cases. That is something which my hon. Friends and I particularly welcome. However, we are somewhat disappointed that there is nothing in the Bill to guarantee that. I agree with the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) that we should legislate for the worst-case scenario, as someone on the Treasury Bench might be of a different political persuasion from Edinburgh and there might be potential for conflict, and co-operation and good will might not exist. We might want Scotland's rights guaranteed. It should be able to participate in the discussions in the Council of Ministers.
What is proposed in new clause 13 might be described as a triple lock, as it caters for three different situations. On matters that are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, but which have a wider UK interest and concern, we propose that the right should be established in law that members of the Scottish Executive can participate in the discussions.
Secondly, where non-reserved matters affect only Scotland and not other parts of the United Kingdom, we would argue that Scottish Ministers should be the sole representatives. We are talking about two conditions. The matters should be exclusively Scottish and non-reserved. I can see the right hon. Member for Devizes asking what they are. Salmon farming is almost an exclusively Scottish interest, and therefore when it is dealt with it should be led by a Scottish Minister.
Let us return to the German lander. The German constitution states where essentially the exclusive legislative jurisdiction of the lander is affected the exercise of the rights of the Federal Republic of Germany as a member state of the European Union shall be transferred to a representative of the lander". Culture is given as an example in the House of Commons Library briefing. I pay tribute to the Library, as it produces good briefings.

Mr. Ancram
The hon. and learned Gentleman talks about exclusive legislative competence. In the light of clause 27(7), what is exclusively legislatively competent to the Scottish Parliament alone?

Mr. Wallace
We are talking about non-reserved matters on which the Scottish Parliament has the right to legislate. The right hon. Gentleman is making a sophisticated constitutional point, which he is absolutely right to do, in terms of clause 27(7), but we are looking at practical politics in this matter. We are talking about 927 matters which, in the normal course of events, would be dealt with by the Scottish Parliament and which apply exclusively within Scotland.

Mr. Dalyell
The hon. and learned Gentleman will complete, will he not, the quote from the Library briefing, because it goes on to say The responsibility of the Federation for the whole state has to be maintained in the process. That is rather crucial.

Mr. Wallace
I accept that it is crucial. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for completing the quote, but I am not sure that it detracts in any way from the point that I made. It is a delegated responsibility as far as the lander are concerned, but, at the end of the day, the relationship is between the United Kingdom and the institutions of the European Union.
Thirdly, there are matters in which Scotland has a particular interest, but which may also affect other parts of the United Kingdom. In those circumstances, with the agreement of the Minister of the Crown, the Scottish Minister may lead the United Kingdom delegation. Fisheries is a good example, as 70 per cent. of landings are in Scotland. A matter could have an overwhelmingly Scottish interest, but also a minor interest for another part of the United Kingdom. It would be appropriate in such circumstances for the Scottish Minister to lead at the European Council meeting, with the concurrence of the United Kingdom Minister.
There are other examples. The European Union has been known to deal with ethnic—if that is the right word—languages, such as Gaelic or Welsh. It could be of no interest to the UK Parliament because the Gaelic and Welsh languages would be devolved matters. It might be for the Scottish and Welsh Executive to sort out between them which one takes the lead. We are talking about trying to get these matters dealt with practically. Although we maintain that the level at which the legal relationship exists with the European Union is at United Kingdom Government level, the responsibility for particular negotiations could be led by the Scottish Parliament.

Dr. Fox
On new clause 13(3), what would the House's mechanism of scrutiny be? How could the House call to account a Scottish Minister who led and made detailed negotiations on behalf of the United Kingdom? How does the hon. and learned Gentleman envisage that happening?

Mr. Wallace
It would have to be with the concurrence of a Minister of the Crown. No doubt a Minister of the Crown would have concurred in that matter. He would have to be answerable to the House and would have to answer for what was done. If only the House were interested in these matters sometimes. In May, a fundamental agreement was made with regard to salmon farming, which has never been the subject of any discussion in the House, in spite of some of our efforts. It would be reassuring to know that hon. Members were interested. I rather suspect that if the issue related to the Gaelic or Welsh languages, there would not be a great outpouring of interest on the Conservative Front Bench to call Ministers to account.

Mr. Salmond
I am fascinated by the argument that a Minister must be present in the House of Commons.
928 There have been a number of occasions when Lords have led United Kingdom delegations. They were not present in the House to answer for their performance—[Interruption.] I shall choose my own words.
In a previous discussion, the occupants of the Conservative Front Bench were frightfully keen to ensure the right of Parliament to summon Scottish Ministers. They were frightfully keen also to stop the right of the Scottish Parliament to summon Westminster Ministers, presumably to account for their actions.

Mr. Wallace
I recall the debate to which the hon. Gentleman refers. It might provide a further answer to the point raised by the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox). The responsible Scottish Minister perhaps could be summoned before one of the sub-committees of the Select Committee on European Legislation.
I accept that good words and good intentions are set out in the White Paper. However, we want a guarantee so that in future, if there were any conflict, the Scottish Parliament could not have its interests overridden by a Westminster Government of any persuasion.
In new clause 14, we propose the establishment of a European Union representative office in Brussels
having the functions of providing advice to, and carrying out consultation with, the institutions of the European Community or Communities rather than the European Union on matters affecting Scotland. I welcome the fact that in a press release issued today the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has announced that there will be an office to act for the Scottish Parliament and Executive in Brussels once the Parliament is established. There will be a new unit staffed by two Scottish Office officials, which will be based within the United Kingdom permanent representation to the European Union. That is a welcome response to new clause 14.

Mr. Ancram
It would have been better announced in the House of Commons.

Mr. Wallace
I note what the right hon. Gentleman says, that it might have been better if the announcement had been made in this place rather than, as I think is the case, picked up off the website two minutes and 36 seconds past 4 o'clock.

Mr. Ancram
We are dealing with an important matter of principle. The hon. and learned Gentleman is looking for a response to new clause 14 in the House of Commons. Instead, it has been responded to on the website or the internet. That would have been without the knowledge of the House of Commons if the hon. and learned Gentleman had not had somebody to find it for him.

Mr. Wallace
We have dealt with this matter already. However, I accept that it is important. When announcements have to be made, especially on legislation, it would be infinitely preferable if they were made first to the House of Commons. I do not want to detract from the significance of that.
929 Council of Minister level is often the last stage for dealing with the most intractable of issues. Very often important decisions and negotiating points are dealt with at an earlier stage. The fact that the Scottish Parliament and Executive will have an inside track will be of considerable benefit to a range of interests in Scotland where European Union legislation is relevant.
When the Secretary of State replies, I hope that he will tell us what the relationship will be between the proposed office and the Scottish Executive and the Committee of Permanent Representatives. I understand that, at present, there is a Scottish Office civil servant who is almost invariably seconded to the UK permanent representation in Brussels, who is obviously on the inside track there. Will the Scottish Parliament and Executive representatives also be present at COREPER meetings, which often set the agenda and at which important decisions and negotiations often take place?
The flow of information is vital. We may have Governments of different complexions at Westminster and Edinburgh; control of information could be vital. It is important that there are reassurances that the Scottish Parliament and Executive office in Brussels will have access to that information and will be involved not only at the formal and final stages of Council of Ministers meetings but at many of the informal but important stages that precede the final stage of negotiations.

Mrs. Ewing
It is my understanding that, in the past, civil servants have been seconded on a temporary basis. Is the hon. and learned Gentleman arguing the case for permanent secondment on a permanent basis?

Mr. Wallace
At present, there is at least a representative. Obviously we want to see the position improved. Indeed, it is important that it is improved. We will not sentence someone to be present for the rest of his days, but at least there should be continuity. There should not be an ad hoc arrangement. Something should be properly established and guaranteed.
There will be important matters on which United Kingdom Ministers will lead. Let us not beat about the bush, the title "lead Ministry" usually applies to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. That is substantially or predominantly an English Ministry. It will have to be far more conscious of its United Kingdom responsibilities when those representing it are lead Ministers. I hope that that message will get through to the Ministry. Its Ministers should no longer think of themselves as being exclusively English Ministers. As a UK Ministry it has a wider responsibility. If that can be brought home to Ministers, it might be reassuring to many Scottish interests.

Mr. Dalyell
Allow