Europe and a Referendum

Mr. William Cash (Stafford)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You did not indicate which amendments, if any, might be discussed. I tabled a manuscript amendment relating to the issue of a single currency before the intergovernmental conference. Could you please give an indication whether my amendment, or any of the others, is to be considered?

Several hon. Members

rose—

Madam Speaker

Order. I am sure that I can cope without any further help. I would always announce which amendments I had selected if, in fact, I had selected any. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and the whole House knows that. In this case, in order not to waste the time of the House—I am not one to do so—I have not selected any amendments.

Mr. Paddy Ashdown (Yeovil)

I beg to move, That this House believes that the popular assent of the people of the United Kingdom should be sought through a referendum before any substantial alteration of the present constitutional settlement between the European Union and its Member States. There are two basic reasons which support this proposition. The first turns on principle and the second on practicality.

First, the matter of principle. Throughout the whole debate on Europe, we have heard much of the importance of the sovereignty of Parliament. But sovereignty does not lie with this institution. It lies with the people of this country. The powers that we have are not ours as of right, to give away as we wish. They are vested in us through the democratic process by the people of this country. Those powers should be redistributed only with the consent of the people from whom they come.

Those who argue the case for the indivisible sovereignty of Parliament seem to believe that sovereignty is an item, a single thing which resides in a single place—in a little box behind the Speaker's Chair, perhaps. But sovereignty does not reside in a single place. The people can vest their power wherever it is of benefit to them to do so. I would argue that there should be much more power at local level, some in Westminster and some—where it is beneficial and to the advantage of the people in the country—in the institutions of Europe. The point is that it is their sovereignty we are dealing with, not ours.

That is why I argued for a referendum before the Maastricht treaty was acceded to, and it is why we argue today for a referendum if there is to be any further shift in the constitutional settlement between Britain and Europe.

The second reason for a referendum on Europe has to do less with principle and more with politics. Anthony Sampson once wrote: Britain joined Europe not in a fit of absence of mind, as she was said to have acquired her Empire, but by a process of deliberate deception". If that is so, it will no longer do. The debate about Europe has been a politicians' debate which has excluded the people whom Europe is supposed to serve.

669 Maastricht was a politicians' treaty, drawn up in the gilded palaces of Europe, couched in language most people could not understand and many Cabinet Ministers did not even bother to read, and passed through the House in a charade of indecipherable late-night procedures and funny hats. Little wonder that many people see Europe as a conspiracy by the politicians and bureaucrats from which they have been excluded.

Those who believe in the constructive continuing development of Europe should, with some humility, recognise that we nearly lost the whole enterprise as a result of that arrogance. Another attempt to take the people of Europe into a process of further integration, either depending on their ignorance or against their will, could be fatal to the whole European project.

Next time, we have to engage our electorates in the debate and carry them with us. If that means that we address their aspirations and anxieties more effectively, so much the better. If it also means that the political classes have to explain the benefits of what we seek to do in terms that they can understand, better still.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the future transfer of power, and he has said that people's sovereignty has been transferred by the Maastricht treaty without their being consulted. As a good democrat, does he believe that we should have a referendum now to agree to those powers which have been transferred?

Mr. Ashdown

The hon. Gentleman is a bit behind the times. The Maastricht treaty has been put into effect, and the right time for a referendurn on it was before the treaty was acceded to.

I do not underestimate either the pain or the difficulty which may face us in the process of European integration, not least through the single currency, if that comes—I believe it will. That is why the decisions we make need to be ones which have the positive assent of our people, and not ones which—because they are taken without consultation by one Government—can be as easily reversed by the next when the going gets tough.

We will no doubt hear arguments from all sides during the debate against a referendum. I shall give the most common of them.

First, there is the argument advanced by those who would otherwise share my views on the importance of Europe to this country. They tell me that it will be embarrassing to go into the Lobby with people who wish to use a referendum to wreck Britain's future in Europe rather than enhance it—people such as the hon. Members for Stafford (Mr. Cash) or for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor). That may be so, but ideas should not be judged by the company that they keep. It is perfectly possible to disagree about Europe, but agree about democracy.

Mr. William Cash (Stafford)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Ashdown

I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman in a minute if he will first let me develop my argument a little further.

To tell the truth—and addressing the hon. Gentleman directly—I have a sneaking admiration for him and his hon. Friends. At least they are honestly arguing the anti-European case in which they so passionately believe. That is more than can be said for those shadowy figures, 670 including some in the Cabinet, who share the same views, play to the same audiences and raise the same scaremongering fears, but hide behind the claim that they really support our infinitely flexible Prime Minister and his infinitely flexible vision of "Britain at the heart of Europe". If a referendum flushed out those closet Europhobes, it would be doing us all a great favour.

Mr. Cash

The right hon. Gentleman made a deliberate slur on me. Without in any way taking umbrage at what he said, I must ask him whether he would accept that I voted yes for the referendum in 1975, yes for the Single European Act in 1986 and yes for the European Economic Area. The reason why I would not support the Maastricht treaty and the Act that followed it was simply that they form the blueprint for European government—the sort of thing that we cannot allow in this country without damaging the very things that the right hon. Gentleman talked about at the beginning of his remarks.

Mr. Ashdown

The hon. Gentleman makes his own point in his own way, and I have no doubt that he will seek to elaborate on it in his speech. If I misrepresented his view, I apologise.

What is unquestionably the case is that the hon. Gentleman's view, which is openly and honestly expressed—and with which I passionately disagree—is held in a hidden, camouflaged fashion within the Cabinet and the Government. It is those people—not the hon. Gentleman, who has been courageous in stating his position—who need to be flushed out. We all know where they stand—they are on the same side and hold the same views as the hon. Gentleman, but are less forthright about such matters. They are content, for reasons at which we can only guess, to hide their opinions within the Cabinet of the present Government.

The next argument to be advanced is that such matters are too complicated for ordinary people to understand, let alone vote on. Frankly, that argument tells us more about those who use it than about the electorate, in which they seem to have so little confidence. Do we really have such a low opinion of the British electorate that we believe that they should be denied the right to vote on issues that the Irish, French, Danes, Austrians, Swedes, Norwegians and Swiss have been allowed to decide on?

Then there are those who say that referendums are alien to our parliamentary democracy.

Mr. Ray Whitney (Wycombe)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Ashdown

If the hon. Gentleman will give me a few more minutes, I shall be happy to give way to him. But I cannot do so at present.

Mr. Roger Knapman (Stroud)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Ashdown

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I shall give way to him in a moment.

There are those who say that referendums are alien lo parliamentary democracy. But Britain has had three referendums over the past 20 years without seeming to be much the worse for them. Nearly all democracies, with a few exceptions, have used national referendums at some time or another.

671 Then there are those who say that we cannot have a referendum because it is impossible to frame the question. That ignores the fact that similar questions have already been posed, debated and answered before in this country—just as they have in no fewer than seven other European countries over the past three years.

The matter of the question is, it seems to me, very simply answered. Parliament should first debate and pass any treaty and then that can be put to the British people for their assent. If, whatever the Prime Minister's forlorn hopes to the contrary, constructive steps forward are proposed after the next IGC which substantially alter our constitutional relationship with Europe, the package as a whole should be put to the British people for their consent.

Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East)

rose—

Mr. Ashdown

If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to make a little progress, I shall give way later.

Lastly, some people who, like me, want constructive, sensible European integration to continue, argue that we had better not have a referendum because we would lose it. Nothing more clearly reveals how far on to the defensive the pro-European voice in the country has been driven by weak leadership, the frightened silence of Conservative Europeans and the withdrawal of Britain's business interests from this vital debate.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Ashdown

I give way to the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Knapman), who was, I think, first.

Mr. Knapman

In view of all that the right hon. Gentleman says and his enthusiasm for referendums, why did so many Liberals not vote for the referendum proposals during the passage of the Maastricht treaty?

Mr. Ashdown

It was a free vote at that stage. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] The hon. Gentleman has some cheek, considering how divided and split the Conservative party is on the whole issue of Europe. However, one thing is unquestionably clear—that the words of the motion are precisely the words on which the Liberal Democrats fought the European elections last year, and we fought them on a united basis, which is more than can be said for any single European policy of Conservative Members. The Conservative party is divided from end to end.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Ashdown

I intend to make a little progress.

The battleground of Europe has been ceded to a tiny minority of the Tory right. What is driving Britain's policy on Europe now is not the long-term interests of the country, but what Lord Howe has recently called—I use his words precisely—the short term tactical considerations of party management". Lord Howe wrote: In the search for party unity at any price, UK foreign policy is being dragged into a ghetto of sentimentality and self-delusion. Exactly. Europe is far too important an issue for Britain for it to be left to an internal spat in the Conservative party and the minor mathematics of the Conservative 672 Whips. The debate must now be widened beyond the confines of the Conservative party, to include the public at large; that is the purpose of the motion.

However, to argue the case for Europe is not to defend everything that Europe does, any more than to be proud of Britain is to defend the archaic, undemocratic way in which the country is governed. Of course Europe can be undemocratic and insufficiently accountable, but it is much less undemocratic and unaccountable than many parts of the quango state created by the present Government since they came to power.

Of course Europe can be too over-centralised, but why does it not stick in the throat of a Conservative Minister who says that, when the Conservative Government have torn the heart out of local government in Britain and refused to allow any form of self-government in Scotland or for Wales?

Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East)

The right hon. Gentleman is giving way to quite a few interventions, for obvious reasons, and I am sure that there will be more.

At least the Liberal Democrat party shares with the vast majority of the parliamentary Conservative party, and the Conservative party outside Parliament, a strong enthusiasm for those European developments. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that many members of the public would accept the second part of his thesis—that, whatever the thoughts about whether there should be a referendum and the effects that it would have on the House, at least the great public debate that would unfold would get us away from the poison against Europe that is seen in The Daily Telegraph, The Times, The Sun and the Daily Star, and we would have a proper, balanced debate, showing the real arguments for Europe?

Mr. Ashdown

I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I admire his courage for making those arguments in the House and outside. It appears that he is almost as unpopular with Conservative Back Benchers as I am, and I feel a certain fellow feeling for him in consequence. I will allow one more intervention from the Opposition side of the House and then I shall not give way again as I wish to give other hon. Members a chance to speak in the debate.

Mr. Donald Anderson

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. The motion refers to a referendum before any substantial alteration". Who but the Government of the day will decide whether an alteration is sufficiently substantial?

Mr. Ashdown

The answer is: this House. I will now make a little progress with my speech.

Of course, as we have argued on many occasions, Europe's institutions and programmes need reform—starting with the common agricultural policy. But it is sheer hypocrisy to argue one day, as the Government do, that the CAP must be reformed and then to vote the next day against any extension of majority voting to enable that to happen.

There is no such thing as a "steady state" European Union. If the process of European co-operation is not moving forward, it will start to move backwards, as those 673 who seek to block it know very well. Listen to the words of Sir Leon Brittan, who, writing in the Daily Telegraph last week about the single market, said: The European market is not an achievement that Britain can assume will never unravel, for the forces of protectionism and narrow national interest will always seek to gnaw away at it". There is a different, more positive view of Europe, and it needs to be heard more in this country. It is a vision of Europe which is democratic and decentralised and which co-ordinates the things that it should be co-ordinating, such as defence and foreign affairs, rather than interfering where it should not in things that are done better by nations, regions and local communities. It is a Europe which recognises, preserves and celebrates its cultural diversity and its national differences. It is a Europe which is made up of nation states which choose to pool elements of their sovereignty to create something larger because it is in the interests of their citizens to do so.

Perhaps our mistake these last three decades has been to try to sell Europe to our people as a purely economic affair, to be measured solely in pounds and pence, jobs and prosperity. Of course, Europe has brought huge economic benefits for British business and British consumers, as the Chancellor made quite plain only last week. But that purely economic emphasis tends to make people look on Europe as a sort of communal kitty, which we keep eyeing nervously to check that someone else is not taking out more money than we are.

In reality, the European ideal is much bigger than that. For Europe, the idea of European union is the biggest political idea this century and the most important safeguard of our prosperity, peace and stability in the next century. But it is an idea which is now being forced into retreat through weak leadership and the want of people to stand up and defend it.

As nationalism rises within the nations of the European Union and conflict deepens in the collapsed Soviet empire to the east, we will either find the political will to lock ourselves together more tightly in Europe, or we will have neither stability within our borders nor peace around them.

Sir Terence Higgins (Worthing)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Ashdown

I am sorry, but I must make progress.

The tragedy is that Europe could be losing its strength and cohesion just at the moment when we need it most. Many of the problems which now confront us in Europe are ones that we cannot solve alone, such as the creation of a safe and clean environment, the preservation of peace, the maintenance of a strong economy in the face of the global market and international currency speculation, and the widening of opportunities for our citizens and our children.

Those who see Europe as merely a collection of co-operating states—as so many do on the Government Benches as well as many in the Labour party—should reflect that that is exactly what they argued for in the 1930s with futile, and ultimately disastrous, consequences.

At the end of a thousand years in which Europe has been the engine and the cockpit for war—first on our own territory, then by export elsewhere in the world—can we find a different way? We began this half-century with Dresden and the gas chambers of Auschwitz. We finish it 674 with ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. The question before Lis—and we had better answer it pretty quickly—is whether we have time to do better than we have done so far. That is why Europe matters. That is why it is time to bring Europe's people into the process of shaping Europe's future.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. David Davis)

The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) started by saying that his speech would be about principle and practicality. Much of what I heard was simply political opportunism. I will elaborate on that point at some length later. First, I will put the debate in the context of the Government's view of Europe and where we will be in the next year or two.

The Government start with the conviction that membership of the European Union is in our national interest—that we are confidently and constructively part of Europe. Much is said about the European Union's problems and shortcomings, and I would be the last to deny that they exist. I will take the opportunity to set out our approach to some of those problems.

Before I start to do that, we should not forget the justifications for joining the Community and for remaining part of it. As the right hon. Gentleman mentioned at the end of his speech, 50 years ago Europe was a continent of ruined cities, exhausted peoples and broken economies. From those ruins, we have created a Europe that is infinitely safer and more prosperous than anything that our forebears could receive—a Europe in which many of the old conflicts have been replaced by co-operation.

The European Community, NATO and free market economies have ensured that Europe acts now as a magnet to the countries of the east and offers the prospect of extending stability and prosperity throughout our continent. A wider Europe is the best instrument for eliminating instability in central and eastern Europe.

Europe is crucial to our prosperity. We are a trading nation and have been for centuries. The single market has been good for trade and good for Britain. Half our visible trade is with Europe. Companies in Japan, Korea and the United States choose to invest in the UK—including in Derbyshire—and to create hundreds of thousands of jobs, because we're in business in Europe.

Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

Name one.

Mr. Davis

Toyota.

Mr. Skinner

When Toyota was welcomed into Derbyshire, hon. Members on both sides of the House claimed credit for this, that and the other council attracting that company to the county. I made it clear to the Speaker and to the House on that occasion that I did not welcome Toyota because it would finish up with a single union deal that would result in a lack of union membership. I have been proved right.

It has resulted also in thousands of car workers losing their jobs elsewhere. The Minister must face the fact that he is dealing with a motion from the same Liberal party that in November 1992 allowed the Government to escape. They were on their knees. The Prime Minister was 675 looking around for allies, and "Paddy Backdown" saved him that night and allowed the Government to continue in office.

Mr. Davis

I must admit that there have been times in my ministerial career when I have wished that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) was a Member of the European Parliament rather than this Parliament, but today is not one of those days. I am glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman is not interested in jobs for his constituents.

Mr. Skinner

I was not talking about my constituency. The Minister does not even know what he is talking about.

Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire)

On that very point, is the Minister aware that, only two days ago, Toyota announced the employment of an additional 1,300 people, many of whom will come from the constituency of Bolsover?

Mr. Davis

My hon. Friend makes my point very well.

Mr. Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock)

Is the Minister going to mention the referendum?

Mr. Davis

Indeed.

There are other areas where acting together has enhanced our influence in the world. Above all, it provided the collective strength for success in trade negotiations with other big players such as the United States and Japan. That strength clinched us the Uruguay round deal in 1993, which was a real breakthrough in trade liberalisation, opening countless doors for British business.

Not everything is right with Europe—far from it—but, unlike the Opposition parties, who seem to accept everything in Europe uncritically, we recognise that fact. I make the odd exception for some Opposition Members. We have to do two things. First, we must set out our vision of the European Union and secondly, we need to develop a detailed approach to the particular issues facing Europe today.

We have a clear view of how we want to see Europe developing over the coming months and year. The Prime Minister set out our views eloquently in his Leiden speech.

Mr. Donald Anderson

How can the Government claim to be at the heart of Europe if, in advance of the intergovernmental conference, they have said, "No, no, no, no," to the issues to be debated?

Mr. Davis

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should wait and hear precisely the point that I am about to develop.

The Prime Minister set out our views eloquently in his Leiden speech. We want a Europe that does not impose undue conformity, but one that encourages flexibility; a Europe capable of including more than 20 nation states. We want a Europe that is built by nation states, not designed to supersede them; a Commission that is the servant of the Community, not its master; a European Parliament with a defined role which is complementary to national parliaments, not in competition with them. That 676 is why subsidiarity is important. It means that the Community and its institutions work with the grain of history, with the grain of national interest, not against it.

Mr. Marlow

I am very pleased to read that my hon. Friend is on the threshold of becoming a member of the Cabinet, because I think that he would make a very good Cabinet Minister. It is the rule with Cabinet Ministers that they all have their own particular spin on the European issue, especially the single European currency. Would it be possible, to use the Prime Minister's words, to be part of EMU and, at the same time, to have flexibility?

Mr. Davis

I wonder whether my hon. Friend was complimenting me when he said that he thought I was on the threshold of the Cabinet. It is not necessarily clear. Also, I am not entirely clear what my hon. Friend means by flexibility within EMU. Does he mean within monetary union?

Mr. Marlow

My hon. Friend says that the Prime Minister says that the sort of Europe we want is one in which nation states have flexibility. Would that degree of flexibility be consistent with Britain participating in economic and monetary union?

Mr. Davis

That is the classical hypothetical question, which, as the Prime Minister has said, since my hon. Friend is referring to his words, will not be addressed in this Parliament and quite possibly will not be addressed in the next Parliament.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster)

Did my hon. Friend have the pleasure of hearing the disagreement between Labour Members on the 1 o'clock news, during which Mike Elliott, the Labour spokesman in the European Parliament, appeared to be recommending a common immigration policy and the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) immediately slapped him down and disowned him, and said that Mr. Elliott misunderstood the situation? Can anybody enlighten us about where Labour stands on this very important subject?

Mr. Davis

If my hon. Friend will wait—

Mr. Mackinlay

When are you going to mention a referendum?

Mr. Davis

If all hon. Members will wait, I shall come to that issue.

We want a Europe that is outward-looking. Enlargement to the east will underpin stability, prosperity and democracy in central Europe. [Interruption.] I note that those on the Front Bench below the Gangway do not think this important, but it is one of the key issues that will dictate the peace of our generation and of subsequent generations. We need to open our markets to our neighbours to the east, and to others around the world. That is because importing their goods is the best way of exporting stability; and exporting our goods is the best way of modernising their economies.

We want a Europe which the ordinary people of Britain can understand and feel comfortable with. That Europe is built on a Conservative vision. It is a Europe committed to free trade and fair competition: a Europe flexible enough and robust enough to encompass the nations to the east. We want a Europe that can advance by co-operation to achieve shared objectives and shared aims.

677 As the Labour party is making so much fuss, I might add that the Conservative party needs no lecturing about Britain's interest in a successful Europe. I shall take no lectures from Labour Members, given that their leader, in his 1983 election address, called for Britain to pull out of the European Union.

While he was performing somersaults, we pressed hard and successfully for the single European market. We won the argument for bringing our continent together by enlarging the European Union. We helped the EU to throw its weight behind free trade in the agreement on Gatt. Our efforts have helped to bring the EU's spending under better control. We enshrined, for the first time, the principle of subsidiarity in the Community's work, and we set the Community on the long road to reform of the common agricultural policy.

Mr. Dykes

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the striking features of the creation of the single market was the fact that Britain was in the forefront of advancing those policies and, quite rightly, of insisting on the use of majority voting? That was the only way to get through the decisions necessary for harmonisation of the single market. Should not the same mechanism apply to other main areas of decision making?

Mr. Davis

The first half of my hon. Friend's comments was correct. That was precisely why Margaret Thatcher supported the idea of allowing QMV—to push past the protectionist road blocks in the way of a single market. My hon. Friend will find that I return to his second point in a moment.

These achievements have been of major benefit, not only to Britain but to Europe, too. Our domestic debate often shrouds those successes in fog, but when the fog clears, we shall see that most of the significant landmarks of this age will have our fingerprints on them.

These successes have been won by a mixture of hard graft, tenacity and skilful negotiation, and by confidence in ourselves and in our case. They have meant digging in and taking some flak—the right hon. Member for Yeovil should understand that. There may be occasions when we need to do so again: that is not the end of the world. It is called negotiation. It is what all Governments do, and what the British people expect of their Government. Negotiation means arguing hard for our point of view and building alliances where we can. It does not mean biting our tongues for fear that others may disagree with us.

Against this background, let us look at the substance of the Liberal Democrat motion. The 1996 IGC is at the crux of that motion, so it may help if I start by setting out the likely timetable. A study group of representatives of Foreign Ministers will prepare the ground for the IGC. I shall represent the Foreign Secretary. Spain will chair the group's first meeting in Messina on 2 June, and we expect it to meet regularly throughout the second half of this year.

678 The group will have before it reports from the Council, the European Parliament and the Commission. Others are, of course, free to put their views to the study group. I hope that Committees of this House will do so—

Mr. Mackinlay

Are you going to mention a referendum?

Mr. Davis

We expect the study group to report to the Madrid European Council in December, which in turn may well convene the IGC, to start early in 1996 under the Italian presidency.

The evidence of past IGCs is that mastery of complexity is a key to success in the negotiations, as our Prime Minister has demonstrated. We shall therefore review carefully all the various policy options within our objectives between now and the IGC.

It is a paradox that we are debating vital issues on such an irrelevant motion, albeit a paradox and an irrelevance only too characteristic of the Liberal party. The motion calls for a referendum before any substantial alteration of the present constitutional settlement between the European Union and its Member States. Such a substantial change would require the assent of every member state, and it would not get it.

I shall quote what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister had to say during "Breakfast with Frost" in January: I do not believe anything is going to happen in that conference that would remotely justify a referendum, I do not think it is going to deal with constitutional matters … if anything that involved significant constitutional change were raised in the 1996 Intergovernmental Conference, we, the British, would not accept it, so the question of a referendum would not arise.

Sir Norman Fowler (Sutton Coldfield)

I accept what my hon. Friend has said about the IGC, but would he accept that different factors apply to a single currency? Will he confirm that the option of a referendum on any decision on a single currency remains open to the Government?

Mr. Davis

I was quoting my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and I shall continue to do so. He said on another occasion—this is 1994— I made it clear that I did not rule out a referendum. One will have to wait and see precisely what the circumstances are. I think it is wise to wait and see precisely what those circumstances are. I have indicated that in certain circumstances it might be appropriate to have a referendum, and if they are, we will."—[Official Report, 12 December 1994; Vol. 251, c. 620.]

Mr. Menzies Campbell (Fife, North-East)

If the Minister is so concerned about paradox, perhaps he will explain to the House the paradox between the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer about a single European currency and those of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

Mr. Davis

I shall put an alternative paradox to the hon. and learned Gentleman. During the Maastricht debate, the leader of the Liberal party, the man who is proposing the case that is set out in the motion, said that he did not support the opt-out on European monetary union. Had that opt-out not been available, the question would not have been capable of arising. I hardly think that that is an easy paradox.

Mr. Barry Legg (Milton Keynes, South-West)

I am interested in my hon. Friend's references to the comments 679 of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister during his interview with David Frost. In the interview, on 8 January, my right hon. Friend went on: I would certainly keep open the option of a referendum in 1996. But the only reason for anybody offering a referendum on the IGC in 1996 would be if they were prepared to accept constitutional change in the negotiations. My right hon. Friend then listed examples of constitutional change. Among them was a firm commitment to a single currency. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Government still stand by what was said in the Frost interview—that the option of a referendum is still open on a single currency, and that the Government regard a single currency as a matter of constitutional change?

Mr. Davis

It is a pretty easy question when a Minister of State is asked whether he agrees with the Prime Minister. I think that that is the case still—[Interruption.] It bears on what the Liberals are up to. How is it that, in the midst of the real debate on Europe, they can find such a non-motion on a non-issue? I suppose that the answer lies in the point made by my hon. Friend.

Mr. Mackinlay

Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Davis

I shall do so shortly.

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that anyone offering a referendum would do so only if he were prepared to accept such constitutional change. That is what the Liberals want. They want a great leap forward to a federal future. That is not what we want, and we are not negotiating for that. It is not what the British people want. The irony is that the Liberals want a referendum to save themselves from themselves.

The Liberal Democrats' unthinking federalism is not just limited to constitutional reform. They would renounce our opt-out on the social chapter. They would increase the cost and burdens on business. Jacques Delors said that the opt-out on the social chapter would make the United Kingdom an investors' paradise. The Liberal Democrats' policies would have precisely the opposite effect. There is little doubt how the British people would react to such a portfolio of policies. It would be less a referendum than a rejection slip—and rightly so. The Government's targets for 1996 do not include that at all.

Mr. Mackinlay

We heard from the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Mr. Legg) and the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden—[Hors. MEMBERS: "Sutton Coldfield"]—(Sir N. Fowler). Sorry—scout jamboree 1957. The Minister was challenged to clarify whether the Prime Minister's utterances earlier this year are still operational. We listened carefully to what he said; he said, "I think so".

That really will not do. Can the Minister assure us that, when a Minister replies this evening, the position of the Prime Minister will be clarified, as to whether the promise of a referendum is still on the cards, in the circumstances outlined by the hon. Member for Milton Keynes, South-West? Can we have that clarification this evening?

Mr. Davis

I read to the House the words of the Prime Minister in December 1994. Those words still apply.

680 I have never heard my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Haselhurst) referred to before as the hon. Member for the scout jamboree 1957.

The Government's targets for 1996 include entrenching the role of the nation state, through better balanced weighting of qualified majority voting, through developing subsidiarity, through enhancing the role of the national Parliaments.

On qualified majority voting, we need a system that better reflects the population levels of the member states. There is a growing recognition throughout the Union that the existing arrangements are undemocratic. Why should each Belgian vote in the Council represent 2 million people, while ours represents 6 million?

We have made good progress on subsidiarity. In 1990, there were 185 new legislative initiatives. Last year, there were just 47. All new Commission proposals must pass tough subsidiarity tests. The extensive programme of repealing and amending existing legislation is progressing well. We are considering how the process can be moved further in the right direction in 1996.

Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey)

I am concerned that the Minister may not mention referendums at all unless we pursue him a bit and prompt him to give us some answers. I want to ask him the constitutional question.

Given that it may be the case that having a common European currency is of such importance that we may, according to the Government, have a referendum, and the Government are not quite sure, does the Minister accept on behalf of the Government that if—as is inevitably part of the European constitution—powers are handed over from this place to a European decision-making body, it is better that they are handed over with the assent of the people by vote rather than by a decision made, behind closed doors, by representatives of Ministers, who currently take the decisions regularly to transfer powers from this country to Europe as a whole? Is it better that the people decide or that Ministers decide? That is the constitutional question, irrespective of whether we are applying to the single currency or any other specific agenda item this year, next year or over the next decade.

Mr. Davis

The hon. Gentleman's memory is becoming incredibly short. That is why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said: I made it clear that I did not rule out a referendum."—[Official Report, 12 December 1994; Vol. 251, c. 620.] My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in his speech at Leiden last September: People will continue to see national Parliaments as their democratic focus. It is national parliamentary democracy that confers legitimacy on the European Council". This House, probably more than any other in the European Union, knows how important it is that Ministers in the Council are accountable to their national Parliaments. But we should also be looking at ways to ensure that we can involve parliaments more directly in the Community process. We want the voices of national Parliaments to be heard clearly in the democratic functioning of the Union.

Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Cromarty and Skye)

May I follow the Minister's earlier comments about the referendum to their logical conclusion? The more 681 slavishly he sticks to the text of the Prime Minister's various speeches, which hinted at different things in different places, the more confused he seems to become.

The Minister described today's debate as something of an irrelevance, saying that the referendum issue would not come up. It would not come up because the Government would not accept any package at the intergovernmental conference that they considered to be of constitutional import. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that, if the Government do not get their way, and there are constitutional implications, the referendum will be off the agenda on grounds of irrelevance? What would the Government do in such circumstances? Would they leave open the option of exiting from the European Union on the present membership basis?

Mr. Davis

The hon. Gentleman pretends to be the Liberals' spokesman on Europe, but he does not realise that we have a veto on treaty changes. That is the point with which we embarked on this issue, and it brings me neatly to what I want to say next. We shall always push Europe in a decentralised, intergovernmental direction, which is the opposite of the thrust of Liberal Democrat policy.

Mr. Cash

Will my hon. Friend give way?>

Mr. Davis

In a moment.

If the Liberal party were in power—which is, admittedly, a scenario imaginable only in a world of fantasy politics—it would deliver a European policy unequivocally federalist in tone, strategy and content: a policy that, directly and indirectly, would funnel power away from the nation state and towards supranational institutions.

Let us look at one or two of the Liberal party's policies. Let us consider its policies on national vetoes and sovereignty. The Liberals have made a number of attempts—including some today—to confuse the issue on the question of the national veto; so let me quote from a speech made by the leader of the Liberal party in Torquay little more than a year ago, in December 1993. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman remembers it well. He said: We want to see the European Parliament catch up with the Council of Ministers in power, with equal law-making rights over more issues. And we want the Ministers to make decisions in public without single nation vetoes. Nothing could be clearer. Now, however, the Liberals try to cover up what they know is an unpopular policy. They talk of a double majority—a mechanism that would make little difference.

Mr. Ashdown

We are used to the present Government saying contradictory things, but the Minister cannot say two contradictory things in the space of five minutes. A few moments ago, he told us that he wanted the veto to take into account populations in Europe. The double veto is designed to do precisely that. Do we take it that the Minister is rejecting the idea, or that he is accepting it? So far, he has said both within five minutes.

Mr. Davis

That was another wonderful demonstration of the Liberal party's ignorance. One option relates to qualified majority voting, to which the veto, by definition, does not apply; the other relates to circumstances in which the common consent of all nations is necessary, to which 682 the veto does apply. One involves majority voting, while the other involves the veto. They are clearly very different.

Mr. Spearing

At the beginning of his speech, the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown) referred eloquently to matters relating to the will of the people. If qualified majority voting operates—as it does—in regard to all matters relating to agriculture and fisheries, and if the Liberals wish to extend it, it may be impossible to execute the will of the people, the will of the Government or the will of our Parliament.

Does the Minister agree that a veto is not a veto if the treaty compels the taking of action by common accord—and thus, an obligation to take action, which no one can prevent, although it may be possible to prevent a specific method of implementing it?

Mr. Davis

As ever, the hon. Gentleman's facts are correct. The veto is, however, the only way in which the Government can, and always do, exercise their rights on behalf of the people.

Mr. Cash

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the main reasons for a referendum on this issue is that, in the Maastricht treaty, we did not veto economic and monetary union and a single currency? Parliament was whipped through on this issue. The Government were unable to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion, and that has put the British people in this mess and in the confusion that has followed. Therefore, it follows that the matter must be referred back to the people to allow them to make up their minds.

Mr. Davis

No, I do not agree with my hon. Friend. He was referring to a single European currency, which was the point of the opt-out. We shall return to Parliament with that point in future.

Mr. Dykes

These are important points, and we must be clear on them. Would my hon. Friend crystallise this matter again? We expect the other member states to come up with proposals for the further steps under Maastricht at the intergovernmental conference which will involve constitutional change and certification of the move to a single currency. Is my hon. Friend saying that the Government will formally veto those suggestions?

Mr. Davis

I am saying that we will maintain our stance against centralising measures at the intergovernmental conference. We will block them if they come up.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Davis

I should like to make some progress.

The Liberal Democrat party has tried to cover its line on vetoes. We have already heard about the rather strange notion of the double majority and Liberals talk about vetoes on executive decisions as if legislation did not matter. The Government want to entrench the position of the nation state, and the Liberal Democrats want to undermine it. When we press a little we discover why that is the case.

683 Perhaps the House would like to know where the right hon. Member for Yeovil stands on the issue of the United Kingdom's sovereignty. Speaking in, I think, the Maastricht debate, the right hon. Gentleman said: I do not believe that the nation state is anything other than a relatively recent historical invention. I do not believe that it will always remain … throughout this decade and the next century the importance of notion of the nation state will decline, …At the same time, advanced democracies will witness the rise in the importance of community and regional identity and supranational institutions."—[Official Report, 20 May 1992; Vol.208, c. 292.] There we have the view of the Liberal party. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]. Liberal Democrat Members obviously agree.

On "The Frost Programme" in May 1994, the right hon. Gentleman was more succinct. [Interruption.] In that case, this is probably appropriate. He simply said: I don't believe in the sovereignty of Parliament. It would be astonishing for a junior Member to say that, let alone the leader of a once great party which he has reduced to an irrelevant splinter group.

Liberal Democrats know that these policies are unpopular, and that is why they obfuscate and equivocate over them. They try to conceal unpopular policies behind the populist gambit of the referendum.

Liberal Democrat policies are not just unpopular: they are wrong. Liberals are transfixed by an outmoded and increasingly irrelevant commitment to full-blooded federalism. That that commitment is outmoded is not just my opinion, because it was reiterated by the Prime Minister of France only a month or two ago. When he was asked, "Should Europe move towards a federal system?", he answered: Its time has passed: an enlarged Europe comprising a greater number of states could not be federal. The Liberals are not just out of touch in Britain: they are out of touch in Europe too. The motion is relevant only if Liberal policies were to be carried out, which is a notion based not just on a hypothesis but on a virtual impossibility.

Labour is little better. Like the Liberals, Labour Front-Bench spokesmen blindly accept whatever is in vogue in Brussels. We know, because they failed to hide it during the European elections, that they would negotiate away our veto. We also know, because the right hon. Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) has told us, that Labour would blindly opt for the single currency. Labour Members never cease to remind us that they would join the social chapter at the first available opportunity. What a choice to put before the British people in a referendum. That is not a question the Labour party wants to be asked, let alone to answer. That is not the price it wants to pay for staying in the European Union.

The changes would not take long to enact—just a few simple signatures on a few simple documents and the next Labour Government, or even a Lib-Lab Government, would be the last British Government who were responsible to this House and the people of the United Kingdom who sent us here. That is a proposition that the British people will never support and it is why they will back the Conservative party and the Prime Minister not in a referendum, but at the next general election.

Ms Joyce Quin (Gateshead, East)

The motion is curious and ill-defined; it is as notable for what it does not say as for what it does say. Having listened to the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Ashdown), I am still confused about some of the motion and about what it means in practice.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) said in an intervention, the motion refers to substantial changes but does not define them. It would be good to hear from the authors of the motion what exactly they mean by substantial changes.

It is clear that, in introducing the motion, the Liberal Democrats have shied away from the debate on a single currency. The motion does not make clear whether a single currency would be the subject of a referendum. Perhaps the right hon. Member for Yeovil would like to tell the House whether it would be included.

Mr. Charles Kennedy

I can clarify that point—indeed, I clarified it last Wednesday with the shadow Foreign Secretary when I showed him the proposed wording of our motion. We wanted to achieve as much support as possible in the House, so I said that the wording could be altered if necessary. He specifically asked me the same question as the hon. Lady has just asked: whether the motion ruled out a referendum on a single currency. I gave the clear answer, "Of course it does not." I do not know whether the shadow Foreign Secretary passed on that information to her. Perhaps he did not, which would explain why she is confused today.

Ms Quin

The confusion arises from the fact that I have had at least three different answers from Liberal Democrats on whether a single currency would be the subject of a referendum. That confusion among Liberal Democrats certainly existed throughout the weekend and this morning.

Sir Norman Fowler

If the motion did include a single currency, what would the Labour party say? Would it support a referendum?

Ms Quin

Our position is clear. We believe that people should be consulted. Whether that would be through a referendum or an election would depend on the timing. This is one reason why the motion does not accord with Labour party policy, a point that I had intended to make later in my speech.

Mr. Marlow

Supposing that, by some mischance, the Labour party won the next election; supposing that the issue of a single currency had not been resolved by that stage; and supposing that two years later there was a proposal for a single currency, would the then Labour Government say that there should be a referendum?

Ms Quin

Three supposes in a row make a tall order. Obviously, we will look at the position when and if it arises—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Geoffrey Lofthouse)

Order. Hon. Members must settle down and listen to the hon. Lady.

Ms Quin

What I said is good sense, because we do not know what the outcome of these matters will be. It 685 would be difficult to commit ourselves in advance on what consultation there should be, although the Liberal Democrats seem prepared to do so.

Mr. Peter Shore (Bethnal Green and Stepney)

My hon. Friend has been given the thankless task of explaining why the Labour party is not operating a three-line Whip this afternoon. It will not do to say that Labour's position is, as it were, an option between a general election and a referendum, and we all know why. We have been through this so many times before that it hardly needs reiterating, but a general election is, inevitably, about a hundred and one issues, including the record of the Conservative Government in the past 15 years. It is not about a single currency or major constitutional changes. Only a referendum can address that issue. In all intellectual honesty, my hon. Friend should admit it.

Ms Quin

I must be a masochist, because I welcome the opportunity to explain Labour policy on these matters. No great change may result from the 1996 intergovernmental conference, and the only change may be that of a Labour Government to take us into the social chapter. As that would be a clear issue between the two main parties at the general election, there would be no need for a referendum on that issue. An awful lot depends on what comes out of the IGC process. Although I sympathise with the idea of holding referendums on these issues, I have explained Labour party policy. I do not have the authority to stand at this Dispatch Box and change policy on the hoof, even if I wanted to.

Some interesting discussions have taken place between various members of the Liberal Democratic party on the tabling of the motion. Some are obviously keener on referendums than others. Some are keener on having one on the single currency. There are differences of view. That is why the motion is ill-defined and why a bit of a fudge has been presented to us today.

Ms Liz Lynne (Rochdale)

Is the hon. Lady saying that her view on the referendum is different from her party's?

Ms Quin

No. Often, there can be good reasons for holding referendums. That is my party's view, but it has not committed itself necessarily to holding a referendum on the outcome of the IGCs, as we are talking about conferences that will begin next year and may last up to 18 months. We do not know what its outcome will be.

Mr. Dykes

The hon. Lady has confirmed finally and conclusively that Opposition Front Benchers support the Government's position, stating that there may be a referendum, depending on what is proposed. That is 100 per cent. support for the Government's position. Why did not the Labour party do the same thing when the Maastricht treaty went through the House, so that we could have avoided the terrible turmoil in the House and outside about divisions that are sometimes artificial?

Ms Quin

I confirm the position as I have explained it to the House. That does not mean that the Labour party agrees with Government policy on Europe. Its agreement with the Government is of a strictly limited variety. One of the difficulties of holding a referendum on the Maastricht treaty was that two versions of the treaty were available—the treaty that was available to all other European countries except the United Kingdom, and the version that had been negotiated with two opt-outs by the 686 Prime Minister. That made the treaty a difficult subject to submit to a referendum. That is one of the arguments that I should like to deal with later if I can make some progress.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Ms Quin

It seems as if progress will be difficult.

Many aspects should be taken into account in relation to what sort of referendum we should hold, and what sort of questions we should raise. Many of those aspects need to be decided before dealing with a motion such as this.

Mr. Legg

Will the hon. Lady confirm that Labour's position is that it supports the opt-out from monetary union, which the Prime Minister negotiated at Maastricht?

Ms Quin

We believe that the opt-out did not create any advantage for the Government; it made them seem semi-detached from Europe. No doubt exists in my mind that the nature of the economic opt-out negotiated by the Prime Minister was one of the reasons, if not the principal reason, why London was not successful in its attempt to attract the European Monetary Institute. [Interruption.] I hear some dissent to that proposal, but it was reported on German television on the day that it was announced that the European Monetary Institute would be sited in Frankfurt.

Mr. Tim Renton (Mid-Sussex)

Is the hon. Lady saying, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes, South-West (Mr. Legg), that the Labour party would prefer there not to be an opt-out on the single currency? Is that her position and that of Opposition Front Benchers?

Ms Quin

We have said that, if we had been in government at that time, we would have negotiated our views on the way forward in relation to economic and monetary union. Obviously, we would have taken a different line from the Government. As we know, they talk a great deal about flexibility and other such concepts, but they have done little to tackle unemployment or to try to promote economic growth in Europe.

We wanted those conditions to be attached to moves towards European monetary union. As we have the opt-out—[interruption.] I hope that Conservative Members will give me a chance to explain my views rather than constantly interrupting. Obviously, they are interested not in answers but in making political points.

The Labour party believes that, when it takes office, it will be able to negotiate with other countries on some of its economic priorities, which are laid out in our policy document entitled "Prosperity through Co-operation". I recommend that Conservative Members read it as it would answer the questions that they keep raising and as they seem incapable of understanding the responses that I have already given.

Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East)

rose—

Ms Quin

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I shall not give way, as I should like to make some progress with my speech. I have given way many times already, and my original speech has hardly begun. Therefore, I shall endeavour to make some quick progress.

If the Liberal Democrats had wanted to maximise support for the motion, they would have gone about things differently. As from last Wednesday, when the shadow 687 Cabinet said that it would not support the motion, Liberal Democrats knew that they had a problem, yet nothing seems to have been done to resolve it. I know, through contacting some of the other minority parties in the House, that little progress was made in trying to get their support. I spoke to the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) just an hour or so ago. He said that, to his knowledge, the Liberal Democrats had made no contact with his party, and that he had had no information about the motion.

Mr. Charles Kennedy

I would not normally intervene twice in the hon. Lady's speech, but the conjecture that is being dredged up as something to do with parliamentary debate is bizarre. Will she confirm that the essential problem that the Liberal Democrats faced in the past few days, in framing the motion and in seeking as much support as we could get for it, was that her party, which has far and away the largest number of Members of Parliament who can contribute to the cause, is the obvious place from which to gain more support? People outside will not understand why, after the shadow Foreign Secretary said last Monday, "We must take every and any opportunity to inflict defeat on the Government, not least over European policy," the Labour party, when the opportunity arises, officially sits on its hands.

Ms Quin

The hon. Gentleman confirms what I said—that contact, if any, with other parties was strictly limited. I can only repeat that the Social Democratic and Labour party told me that this afternoon.

Mr. Skinner

I have a copy of today's Evening Standard. There is further confusion. It has been admitted that a memorandum has been drawn up by the foreign affairs spokesman for the Liberal party, who was angry that he was getting the blame for not having taken part in proper discussions with my hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary. It is reported in the Evening Standard that the Liberal spokesman has made it clear to the Liberal party leadership that he has been misled because he was told not to raise the referendum issue with my hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary until Russell Johnston and Roy Jenkins had been squared. That says one hell of a lot. I support the referendum.

Ms Quin

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for quoting extensively from the article in today's Evening Standard. The two members of the Liberal party to whom he referred are not, shall we say, terribly enthusiastic about the idea of a referendum, which explains quite a bit in the report.

Sir Teddy Taylor

Does the hon. Lady agree that one of the problems with having a referendum is that the scene is constantly changing? Only a few moments ago, I received notification from Brussels that plans to ban all passport controls between European countries, including Britain, will be tabled by the Commission later this year. Is she aware that, if Britain objects in any way, we shall face a challenge in the European Court of Justice. The argument is that article 7a of the treaty states clearly that a single market is an area without internal frontiers in which freedom of movement of people is guaranteed.

Does it not mean that the scene is constantly changing when only this morning some of our bright chaps were saying that there was no problem and nothing would 688 happen, while I have here an unambiguous statement to the effect that proposals will be considered to abolish passport controls within the European Union and that, were we to object, we would be taken to the European Court of Justice? The hon. Lady knows what would happen if we were taken to the European Court of Justice on this issue—we should not have a hope.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I have been very tolerant about mini-speeches disguised as interventions. I know that this is a very important debate but I shall now expect interventions to be brief and to the point.

Ms Quin

Proposals have to be agreed, and I think it is rather doubtful that the ones to which the hon. Gentleman refers will be agreed in that form. When I was travelling recently on the continent, I had to show my passport several times, so it seems that border controls are a long way from being removed. Indeed, I hope that many of the safeguards, which the hon. Gentleman and I would probably think are important, will remain in place.

There are times when the Opposition parties are able to join together effectively to defeat the Government. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) rightly referred to some of the opportunities that arose during the Maastricht debate, when we did not always receive the support of the Liberal Democrats. There have been occasions recently when the Government have been threatened on their legislative programme or in respect of their adherence to international treaties.

Such an occasion arose just before Christmas, when we debated increased contributions to the European Union budget. More recent examples occurred when we debated the European fisheries policy and, of course, when the Government were defeated over value added tax on fuel. We believe that we should take opportunities of this kind, but they nevertheless need to be better prepared in future.

Labour's position on the motion is that we believe that it is essential for people to be consulted on any major shift in our relations with the European Union. We accept that the most likely occasion for such a shift to occur will be at the outcome of the intergovernmental conferences. Such consultation may take the form of a referendum, but, because of the uncertain timing of the next general election and the fact that we do not know whether an election would involve a widespread debate on any significant change in our relationships with the European Union, we are not at this stage committing ourselves firmly as to whether a referendum will be necessary. It is something that we are clearly duty bound to keep under review.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Ms Quin

I am not going to give way; I have done so many times already.

We are sensitive to the fact that people must not feel left out in the cold over the debate on Europe. After all, it was the Labour Government who gave people the previous referendum. After the high-handed way in which the Conservatives have run the country for the past 15 years, we can particularly appreciate the dangers to our political system of ignoring public opinion on such a fundamental issue.

Although this debate is about Europe, it is also about referendums and the role that they can play in our democracy. The right hon. Member for Yeovil said that 689 some think of a referendum as an alien concept that is not a usual part of the British political system. It is certainly true that referendums have been much more widely used in Europe than in our country, which is rather ironic as so many of the people who are especially keen on the idea of a referendum at the moment are those who distrust European traditions.

However, we need to consider the role of referendums and whether we want increasing use to be made of them and, if so, why. Perhaps we should have a referendum on whether we should have recourse to referendums in future. There are arguments for changing our democracy and for having a different approach.

I do not know whether any other hon. Members listened to "Analysis" on Radio 4 yesterday. People were discussing the revolution in information technology and how it theoretically makes it possible for us to have a more participatory form of democracy—for example, by using technology to give people a say and a vote, either in a consultative way or in a binding way on the Government of the day. That is certainly a very interesting idea. Do we want to follow Switzerland and have referendums with considerable frequency, or do we want to copy the example of California, where there have been many difficulties with the frequent use of referendums?

Mr. Mackinlay

Does my hon. Friend understand that many in the new Labour party would see it as a virtue if we said that people should be consulted on major constitutional issues? What is wrong with that? It was not part of British culture to allow working class people to vote until we changed that in this place. Nor were women allowed to become Members of Parliament until we changed that in this place. It would be a good idea to allow people to decide major constitutional issues as a matter of course.

Ms Quin

I am more than willing for that to be discussed widely within the Labour party. My hon. Friend will know that our democracy commission is examining such issues at the moment. None the less—

Mr. Marlow

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Ms Quin

I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman and to many others, and many hon. Members want to speak.

It is much too early to say whether the IGCs and their conclusions should be the subject of a referendum. We do not yet know whether the IGCs will lead to substantial changes, although some people feel that it is unlikely. There is some merit in that line of argument, partly because the European Union has recently been enlarged to include 15 countries and the new countries are still adapting to the European Union. Indeed, the transition process will not have been completed by the time of the IGCs.

We are also talking about enlarging the European Union to include the countries of central and eastern Europe, about which my party is very enthusiastic. I believe that such enlargement commands widespread support in the House. It would be disastrous—certainly for political reasons—if we sent a negative political signal 690 to the countries of central and eastern Europe and, having encouraged changes in those countries, seemed to be turning our backs on them.

Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich)

Is my hon. Friend seriously saying that she expects the countries of eastern Europe to be able to meet the convergence terms, which are not only part of the next IGC but automatically part of the arrangements for our move towards a single currency?

Ms Quin

It is unlikely that most of them could meet the criteria, but the Czech Republic, for example, has said that it thinks it might be in a position to do so. There is no uniformity among the countries of central and eastern Europe which are very different and have different traditions.

Several hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Lady has made it clear that she will not give way.