HC Deb 13 April 1994 vol 241 cc225-33

'The Secretary of State shall at least once in each year certify in respect of each prison, remand centre and young offender institution—

  1. (a) the certified normal accommodation of the prison, remand centre or young offender institution, that is. to say the number of prisoners who can be satisfactorily accommodated in cells and dormitories; and
  2. 226
  3. (b) the certified regime capacity, that is to say the number of prisoners for which the prison can provide an acceptable regime.'.—[Mr. Michael.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Michael

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Through the clause we want to make a positive contribution to resolving the major problem of prison overcrowding. We propose that once each year the Home Secretary shall certify in respect of each prison, remand centre and young offender institution

the normal accommodation of that institution. By that we mean the number of prisoners who can be satisfactorily accommodated in cells and dormitories".

Secondly, we want the Home Secretary to state, at least once each year, the certified regime capacity—the number of prisoners for which an acceptable regime can be provided. I emphasise the word "acceptable" as it is crucial to any understanding of the dangers of prisons at present. Governors warn that overcrowding is pushing prisons ever closer to explosion point. The House of Commons should respond to their warnings by finding a mechanism to deal with the problem.

The Minister who responded to the corresponding debate in Committee ridiculed the amendment that we had tabled. He said, basically, that requiring the Home Secretary to come to the House to request permission to go above certified numbers would be too bureaucratic and would cause too much delay. We have been constructive in our response and have come up with a very simple proposal, which would require the Home Secretary merely to look at the situation in each prison every year. He would have to take account not only of the accommodation provided but of the possibility of dealing properly with prisoners. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman who is responding to this debate will be more positive in respect of some of these issues than was his hon. Friend who, replying in Committee, said: The aim of the prison service is to house prisoners, without overcrowding, in accommodation close to their home area, but it must find suitably secure accommodation for those committed to custody by the courts. Those aims may be in conflict at times." —[Official Report, Standing Committee B, 8 March 1994; c. 1246.]

We understand that there will be conflict between aims. Hence the need for a resolution mechanism and for accountability to Parliament with regard to the way in which the Home Secretary reconciles the different demands. The surprising thing about the response that I have just quoted is that it contains no mention of reform. The Minister did not say anything about the need to provide appropriate psychiatric treatment and education —the type of regime that leads to reform. The hon. Gentleman seemed to regard this as merely an exercise in numbers rather than as an exercise in the reform of prisoners.

Over the past year, prison numbers have shot up. In the first 11 months of 1993, the total increased by 16 per cent. That is an average of nearly 600 a month. The number of remand prisoners rose by 44 per cent. in that period, while the number of prisoners under 21 years of age increased by 22 per cent. I can bring some of that information up to date by saying that on Friday 18 March, there were 48,571 people in prison and 522 in police cells. I warn the House that the holding in cells of people who ought to be in prison is another demonstration of the failure of the system to work properly.

Several consequences flow from prisoner numbers. The Director General of the Prison Service, Mr. Derek Lewis, tells us that the atmosphere in the prisons following the recent sharp increase in numbers is more volatile than at any time since the Strangeways riots of 1990. In his submission to the inquiry following those riots, the then director general referred to overcrowding as the single factor that dominated prisoners' lives, produced often intolerable pressure on staff and, as a consequence, soured industrial relations, skewed managerial effort and diverted management away from positive developments. In his report on the riots, Lord Justice Woolf unreservedly endorsed this assessment of the effect of overcrowding. He said: Overcrowding is felt most sharply in the Victorian-built city centre prisons, which always bear the brunt of rising numbers.

I pay tribute to the governors and prison officers who have to cope in these establishments. I refer in particular to Cardiff prison, which is on the border of my constituency.

Our amendment would not prevent the Government from squeezing extra prisoners into the gaols, but it would require them to state an upper limit. They would have to give careful thought to the question of the number of people that they could afford to allow to be accommodated in a prison without putting at risk the key role of the reform of offenders.

It is pointless to run a prison service in such a way that, in the long term, prisoners are more likely to offend again when they are released and, in the short term, the safety of prison staff is put at risk. Overcrowding results in cramped and unpleasant physical conditions. It also results in restricted regimes, as overcrowded prisons do not have the space, facilities or resources to provide prisoners with a full range of training, work and educational opportunities.

Judge Stephen Tumim, Chief Inspector of Prisons, commented in his annual report for 1991-92—so this reference relates to the immediate position: Local prisons for men do not offer sufficient time out of cell or a satisfactory range of opportunities. Those we visited in 1991/92 remained overcrowded and invariably short of space. The number of inmates held in local prisons should be determined not by the number of beds that can be crammed in but by the facilities available to contain people decently and provide them with out of cell activity. That is why the new clause deals with both those requirements.

Lord Justice Woolf said in his report on prison disturbances: It is also clear from the evidence which the Inquiry has received from prisoners, that the conditions which exist at present in our prisons cause a substantial number of prisoners to leave prison more embittered and hostile to society than when they arrived. They leave prison, therefore, in a state of mind where they are more likely to re-offend. In an atmosphere in which the Home Secretary has used the one-line slogan "prison works" we should pay more attention to ensuring that prisons work effectively in reforming those sent to them. That is how to ensure that prisons work, not simply by cramming in numbers without thought. Overcrowding is a recipe not only for re-offending on release but for rioting in prisons. Many recent reports have underlined the fact that it increases tension and frustration among those forced to live cheek by jowl in cramped conditions.

We should pay particular attention to the comments of the chairman of the Prison Governors' Association, Mr. Brendan O'Friel. At the association's recent conference, he said: We are building up a significant number of prisoners with a justifiable grudge against the Prison Service for moving them so far away from home … Steps must be taken to bring this to an end or it will bring trouble within our prisons. We should heed that warning because of the threat of danger not only within our prisons but back on the streets. He went on to say: Overcrowded prisons are unhealthy places, far more likely to turn out embittered, hardened and contaminated individuals. Overcrowding reduces the opportunities for staff to combat contamination. It makes it very difficult for staff to put in place positive programmes to encourage prisoners to face up to offending. Note the words "to face up"—not to give easy conditions but to force prisoners to face up to what they have done and the harm that they have caused to society. He then said: I appeal in the strongest possible terms to those in the rest of the criminal justice system to recognise that if the rise in the prison population continues, the whole criminal justice system could be plunged into chaos. 4.45 pm

He added: if the population rise continues, the risks we will have to face of further disturbances are fast becoming unacceptable.

The new clause will not solve those problems, but will ensure that Ministers account to Parliament for how they run the Prison Service. It will ensure that Parliament has before it information on the assessment made by Ministers of whether the institutions can cope with numbers and can ensure that prisoners are returned to society less likely to offend and create new victims. That is why it is such an important new clause, and I commend it to the House.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Peter Lloyd)

The new clause would require an annual reassessment of living accommodation and regime capacity across the entire prison service. Currently, reassessment is carried out whenever there are changes in living units, such as after refurbishment. That is a practical and flexible arrangement. Furthermore, Prison Service area managers have a continuing responsibility to satisfy themselves that living accommodation in the prisons in their areas meets the requirements of the Prison Act 1952, so nothing would be gained in practice by accepting the first part of the new clause, other than extra bureaucracy.

The hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) seemed to be unaware of the figure for certified normal accommodation. We know it for each prison. We are responsible to Parliament for it under the Prison Act 1952, which is why I have published regularly, in answers to questions from hon. Members, the CNA figure and the population by total service, individual prisons or prisons in particular regions. So information is readily available if ever the hon. Gentleman cares to ask for it. Indeed, he would find it if he looked back in recent editions of Hansard.

The regime capacity is a new concept. It would not, I fear, be an objective measure, but would depend on facilities, type of prison and prisoner, and availability of staff, which can vary heavily with, for example, the demand for court escorts. Despite the recent growth in the prison population, however, purposeful activity has increased over the past year. Moreover, the new Prison Service operating standards that will be issued to governors shortly will help them to deliver more uniform and higher standards against which they will be individually judged. Each prison governor will have a contract with his area manager on how he will meet those standards during the coming year.

Dr. Godman

Will the Minister confirm that the current arrangements and procedures to which he has just referred will obtain in Scotland? Although our prisoners do not suffer from overcrowding to the same extent as south of the border, overcrowding is a problem.

Mr. Lloyd

I cannot speak with authority on how accommodation available is certificated in Scotland. All that I can do is pass on the hon. Gentleman's inquiry to my colleague at the Scottish Office and ensure that the hon. Gentleman receives a reply. If I endeavour to reply here, I might get it wrong if a difference exists in the methodology in England and Wales and in Scotland.

As I was saying, capacity is a novel concept which it would be hard to measure objectively. Indeed, I am certain that it could not be measured objectively because it varies for a number of reasons, such as resources and availability of staff. It needs to differ from prison to prison, according to the prison's nature, facilities and type of prisoners. However, despite the recent growth in prison population, the regime activities have tended to improve. Last year, the amount of time spent out of cells in purposeful activity increased yet again.

I understand why the clause has been tabled. It is important to ensure that standards of accommodation and regime are kept under close scrutiny. I hope that what I have said persuades the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth that the arrangements and new operating standards meet that proper objective. He seems to have the impression that overcrowding has been increasing over a long period in the prison service. It has not. The number of prisoners has grown sharply over the past year after a decline. We now have about the same number of prisoners as we had four years ago, but, because of the Government's prison-building programme, they are, on the whole, much less overcrowded than they were. In much of the Prison Service, there is no overcrowding.

The hon. Gentleman spoke particularly of numbers in local prisons where, for many years, most of the pressure has been found. That is because local prisons have little room for expansion in town centres near the courts. They must house those sent to prison by the courts while they are on trial or remand. The only quick way of reducing overcrowding in those prisons is to move the prisoners elsewhere in the system, producing exactly the effect that the hon. Gentleman complained of—prisoners housed in prisons far away from their homes. Our prison building programme is designed to ensure that there is a sufficiency of places throughout the country where they are needed.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends will support the Government when we seek to build prisons in places where there is great local resistance—as of course there is at Fazakerley at the moment. In this case, the local population does not want a prison, but prisoners from Merseyside need an extra prison if they are not to be dispersed in large numbers across the rest of the country as happens now. I hope that we can count on the hon. Gentleman's support in the matter. Judging by what he said, he ought to give his support and I hope that he will put his backing where his sentiments appear to lie.

Mr. Michael

With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Minister does not seem to realise that there is an increase in the use of police cells to hold prisoners. He does not seem to be heeding the warnings, which are growing louder, being given to the Government from many quarters. We do not need more information from the Minister; we need more accountability.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Ms Ruddock) has ensured both the availability of information about this issue and an analysis of that information which shows the Government's shortcomings in this area. The Home Secretary needs to concentrate his mind on the regime in prison and the outcome of holding people in prison. The Home Secretary needs to listen to those who are involved in the Prison Service, including prison governors and prison officers. Our new clause will ensure that more listening and thinking takes place and, for that reason, we press it to a Division.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 247, Noes 281.

Division No. 198] [4.51 pm
Abbott, Ms Diane Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Adams, Mrs Irene Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Ainger, Nick Corbett, Robin
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) Corbyn, Jeremy
Allen, Graham Corston, Ms Jean
Alton, David Cousins, Jim
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) Cox, Tom
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Armstrong, Hilary Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John
Ashton, Joe Dafis, Cynog
Austin-Walker, John Dalyell, Tam
Barnes, Harry Darling, Alistair
Barron, Kevin Davidson, Ian
Battle, John Davies, Bryan (Oldham C'tral)
Bayley, Hugh Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Beggs, Roy Denham, John
Beith, Rt Hon A. J. Dewar, Donald
Bell, Stuart Dixon, Don
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Dobson, Frank
Benton, Joe Donohoe, Brian H.
Bermingham, Gerald Dunnachie, Jimmy
Berry, Roger Eagle, Ms Angela
Betts, Clive Enright, Derek
Blair, Tony Etherington, Bill
Blunkett, David Evans, John (St Helens N)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) Faulds, Andrew
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon) Fisher, Mark
Burden, Richard Flynn, Paul
Byers, Stephen Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)
Caborn, Richard Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Callaghan, Jim Foulkes, George
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) Fraser, John
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Fyfe, Maria
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Galbraith, Sam
Campbell-Savours, D. N. Galloway, George
Cann, Jamie Gapes, Mike
Chisholm, Malcolm George, Bruce
Clapham, Michael Gerrard, Neil
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Godman, Dr Norman A.
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) Godsiff, Roger
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) Golding, Mrs Llin
Clelland, David Graham, Thomas
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Coffey, Ann Griffiths, Win (Blidgend)
Connarty, Michael Grocott, Bruce
Hain, Peter Mudie, George
Hall, Mike Mullin, Chris
Hanson, David Murphy, Paul
Harman, Ms Harriet O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
Harvey, Nick O'Brein, William (Normanton)
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy O'Hara, Edward
Heppell, John Olner, William
Hill, Keith (Streatham) Orme,Rt Hon Stanley
Hoey, Kate Parry, Robert
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld) Patchett, Terry
Home Robertson, John Pendry, Tom
Hoon, Geoffrey Pike, Peter L.
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) Pope, Greg
Hoyle, Doug Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Purchase, Ken
Hughes, Roy (Newport E) Quin, Ms Joyce
Hutton, John Radice, Giles
Ingram, Adam Randall, Stuart
Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) Raynsford, Nick
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) Rendel, David
Jamieson, David Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Janner, Greville Roche, Mrs. Barbara
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Moôn) Rogers, Allan
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Rooker, Jeff
Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) Ross, william (E Londonderry)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) Rowlands, Ted
Jowell, Tessa Ruddock, Joan
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Salmond, Alex
Keen, Alan Sedgemore, Brain
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) Sheerman, Barry
Khabra, Piara S. Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Kilfoyle, Peter Shore, Rt Hon Peter
Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn) Short, Clare
Kirkwood, Archy Skinner, Dennis
Lestor, Joan (Eccles) Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Lewis, Terry Smith, C. (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Livingstone, Ken Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Llwyd, Elfyn Soley, Clive
Loyden, Eddie Spearing, Nigel
Lynne, Ms Liz Spellar, John
McAllion, John Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
McAvoy, Thomas Steinberg, Gerry
Macdonald, Calum Stevenson, George
McFall, John Stott, Roger
McKelvey, William Straw, Jack
Mackinlay, Andrew Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
McLeish, Henry Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Maclennan, Robert Trimble, David
McMaster, Gordon Turner, Dennis
McNamara, Kevin Tyler, Paul
McWilliam, John Vaz, Keith
Madden, Max Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)
Maddock, Mrs Diana Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold
Mahon, Alice Wallace, James
Mandelson, Peter Walley, Joan
Marek, Dr John Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Marshall, David (Shettleston) Wareing, Robert N
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) Watson, Mike
Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) Welsh, Andrew
Martlew, Eric Wicks, Malcolm
Maxton, John Wigley, Dafydd
Meale, Alan Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Michael, Alun Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) Wilson, Brian
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) Winnick, David
Milburn, Alan Wise, Audrey
Miller, Andrew Worthington, Tony
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) Wray, Jimmy
Molyneaux, Rt Hon James Wright, Dr Tony
Moonie, Dr Lewis Young, David (Bolton SE)
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot Tellers for the Ayes:
Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) Mr. Eric Illsley and
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) Mr. John Gunnell.
Mowlam, Marjorie
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Aitken, Jonathan Evennett, David
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Faber, David
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Fabricant, Michael
Amess, David Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas
Arbuthnot, James Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Fishburn, Dudley
Ashby, David Forman, Nigel
Aspinwall, Jack Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Atkins, Robert Forth, Eric
Atkinson, David (Bour'mouth E) Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Baker, Nicholas Dorset North) Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Baldry, Tony French, Douglas
Banks, Matthwe (Southport) Gale, Roger
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Gallie, Phil
Bates, Michael Gardiner, Sir George
Batiste, Spencer Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Bellingham, Henry Garnier, Edward
Bendall, Vivian Gill, Christopher
Beresford, Sir Paul Gillen, Cheryl
Biffen, Rt Hon John Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Blackburn, Dr John G. Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Body, Sir Richard Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Gorst, John
Booth, Hartley Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)
Boswell, Tim Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Bowden, Andrew Grylls, Sir Michael
Bowis, John Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Hague, William
Brandreth, Gyles Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Brazier, Julian Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Bright, Graham Hampson, Dr Keith
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Hanley, Jeremy
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) Hannam, Sir John
Browning, Mrs. Angela Hargreaves, Andrew
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) Harris, David
Burns, Simon Haselhurst, Alan
Burt, Alistair Hawkins, Nick
Carlisle, John (Luton North) Hayes, Jerry
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Heald, Oliver
Carrington, Matthew Heathcoat-Amory, David
Carttiss, Michael Hendry, Charles
Cash, William Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Chapman, Sydney Hicks, Robert
Clappison, James Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford) Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Horam, John
Colvin, Michael Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Congdon, David Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Conway, Derek Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Couchman, James Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Cran, James Hunter, Andrew
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) Jack, Michael
Davies, Quentin (Stamford) Jenkin, Bernard
Davis, David (Boothferry) Jessel, Toby
Day, Stephen Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Deva, Nirj Joseph Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Dickens, Geoffrey Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)
Dorrell, Stephen Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Dover, Den Key, Robert
Duncan, Alan King, Rt Hon Tom
Duncan-Smith, Iain Knapman, Roger
Dunn, Bob Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Dykes, Hugh Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Eggar, Tim Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Elletson, Harold Knox, Sir David
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Leigh, Edward Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Lennox-Boyd, Mark Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) Sackville, Tom
Lidington, David Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Lightbown, David Shaw, David (Dover)
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Lloyd, Rt Hon Peter (Fareham) Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Lord, Michael Shersby, Michael
Luff, Peter Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Speed, Sir Keith
MacGregor, Rt Hon John Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
MacKay, Andrew Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
Maclean, David Spink, Dr Robert
McLoughlin, Patrick Spring, Richard
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Sproat, Iain
Madel, Sir David Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Maitland, Lady Olga Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Major, Rt Hon John Steen, Anthony
Malone, Gerald Stephen, Michael
Mans, Keith Stewart, Allan
Marland, Paul Streeter, Gary
Marlow, Tony Sumberg, David
Marshall, John (Hendon S) Sweeney, Walter
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Sykes, John
Mates, Michael Tapsell, Sir Peter
Merchant, Piers Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Mills, Iain Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Temple-Morris, Peter
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) Thomason, Roy
Moate, Sir Roger Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Monro, Sir Hector Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Thurnham, Peter
Moss, Malcolm Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Needham, Richard Tracey, Richard
Nelson, Anthony Tredinnick, David
Neubert, Sir Michael Trend, Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony Trotter, Neville
Nicholls, Patrick Twinn, Dr Ian
Nicholson, David (Taunton) Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) Viggers, Peter
Norris, Steve Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Oppenheim, Phillip Waller, Gary
Ottaway, Richard Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Page, Richard Waterson, Nigel
Paice, James Watts, John
Patnick, Irvine Wells, Bowen
Patten, Rt Hon John Whitney, Ray
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Whittingdale, John
Pawsey, James Widdecombe, Ann
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Pickles, Eric Wilkinson, John
Porter, Barry (Wirral S) Willetts, David
Porter, David (Waveney) Wilshire, David
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Redwood, Rt Hon John Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'fld)
Renton, Rt Hon Tim Yeo, Tim
Richards, Rod Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew Tellers for the Noes:
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn Mr. Timothy Wood and
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) Mr. Timothy Kirkhope.
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)

Question accordingly negatived.