Statement on the Defence Estimates

§ Madam Speaker

I should inform the House that I have had to impose a limit of 10 minutes on the length of speeches between the hours of 7 and 9 pm. Those speaking outside those hours should use voluntary restraint, so that I can call as many Members as possible.

§ Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. On today's Order Paper you will see the substantial amendment, supported by 17 hon. Members, which was tabled to give the House an opportunity to decide in a vote what many people in this country would like to hear discussed: whether this country should possess nuclear weapons and cut its arms expenditure. I appeal to you to allow the amendment to be put to a vote at 10 pm.

§ Madam Speaker

The hon. Gentleman raised the matter with me yesterday. I have looked carefully at the amendment standing in his name, but I cannot allow it to be put to the vote. However, it can—and I am sure that it will—be referred to during today's debate.

§ The Minister of State for the Armed Forces (Mr. Jeremy Hanley)

Yesterday's debate focused on the broader defence issues raised in "Defending Our Future". Today, I should like to respond to a few more of the points from last night's debate and also take the opportunity to make some important announcements.

But first the White Paper. I am pleased to say that "Defending Our Future" has had a positive reception in the House and the press. We have placed our cards on the table and we have a winning hand.

"Defending Our Future"presents critics of Government defence policy with our case for the defence. Those who argue for increases in force levels across the board—because, they claim, we cannot meet our commitments —are given evidence that we can. "Defending Our Future" demonstrates the principle of multiple earmarking, 163 whereby individual force elements are attributed to two or three tasks that are unlikely to require simultaneous fulfilment. I should stress that multiple earmarking is nothing new. It is the only rational way to devise a force structure and has always been practised by both ourselves and our NATO allies.

We have been able to demonstrate that we have a sustainable set of commitments with an effective force structure to meet them. Naturally, we must keep them under review to ensure that they do not grow beyond our ability to fulfil them and to ensure that our force structures and capabilities are adjusted as necessary. That includes ensuring that the high quality of manpower, equipment and support is maintained.

There is still more. We have often been asked to state explicitly the kinds of conflicts in which we anticipate possible British involvement. We illustrate that in table 1 of the White Paper. I accept that that does not amount to a definitive list of scenarios, but it would be neither politically nor militarily sensible to stand here and give a list of countries that we might have to fight.

When it comes down to it, there are no easy alternatives to the defence policy that we are pursuing. Indeed, I must say that I have yet to hear a genuine alternative—even during yesterday's debate—properly argued and taking into account all the aspects of British security requirements and international interests. I believe that "Defending Our Future" makes that clear. It again underlines the fact that we have a sound defence policy, a sustainable range of commitments and the effective and flexible force structures that we need to meet them.

As an excellent example of that flexibility, I am pleased to tell the House that I have today agreed the deployment of HMS Active to Haiti to help our allies in the enforcement of United Nations sanctions against Haiti. HMS Active is currently serving in the Caribbean as the West Indies guardship and is able to divert to Haitian waters without affecting her other commitments. That clearly demonstrates the ability of the armed forces to deploy at short notice to conduct operations and enforce the will of the international community. HMS Active will be working in close co-operation with the United States navy and others enforcing the sanctions.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Defence yesterday touched on the changing face of the world and the situation within Russia, particularly its historic transition down the democratic path. He mentioned also the initiatives that we have in hand to continue the improvement in defence relations with central and eastern European countries and to draw them closer to the west. As an illustration of the change in the security environment, I was pleased last week to pay an official visit to Hungary for discussions with my counterparts in the Hungarian Ministry of Defence and meet Mr. Jeszenszky, its Foreign Minister.

As a member of the North Atlantic Co-operation Council, Hungary is a country of strategic importance to the future development of Europe. It is in the vanguard of the process of reform and restructuring taking place throughout central and eastern Europe and has set a fine example for others to follow. Hungary has made great strides in breaking down the barriers of the cold war and in developing public and parliamentary consensus in the role 164 of the armed forces in a pluralistic society. I am pleased to say that Her Majesty's Government have been able to contribute to the process of democratisation and civilianisation and I hope that we are now looking to deepen our contacts and the programme of co-operation, not only with Hungary but with other north Atlantic co-operation partners. It is in their interests and ours.

On leaving Hungary, my impression was of a country totally committed to the development of armed forces founded on the rule of law and trained and equipped to co-operate effectively in the future with the international community on the difficult challenge that we face in security and defence. I think that that will enhance the security and stability of Europe. It is also clear that Hungary holds our forces in high regard.

In yesterday's debate, the hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald) referred to the test and evaluation ranges in his constituency. As part of our continuing rationalisation of support areas, we are reviewing all test and evaluation ranges. However, I stress that no decisions have been taken and they will be taken only after full consultation with trade unions and other interested parties. We are conscious of the importance of those establishments to their local economies. My hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement visited Benbecula and St. Kilda and saw that at first hand.

The hon. Member for Western Isles takes a close interest in the safety of the Scottish fishing fleet, as do a number of hon. Members. "Defending our Future" rightly includes a substantial section on the subject of fishing vessel safety. The House will recall the tragic incident in November 1990 in which a Clyde-based trawler, the Antares, was sunk with the loss of her crew after a submarine became entangled in her nets. I know from my discussions with hon. Members how much concern that unfortunate accident engendered in fishing communities around the country and, in particular, on the Clyde. I place considerable importance on ensuring that everything possible is done to prevent a recurrence.

Some have suggested that the answer is to ban dived submarine operations in inshore water, but that is not an option. If our submarines cannot train in shallow waters, they will not be able to perform their operational role safely or effectively.

The Royal Navy has found ways of cutting the number of dived operations in waters used by fishing vessels. Where possible, training and exercises in areas such as the Clyde are carried out at weekends when fishing does not take place and transits are now routinely conducted on the surface.

When there is a requirement for dived operations in fishing grounds, submarines now follow revised operational procedures designed to ensure that the risk to the safety of fishing vessels is kept to an absolute minimum. Those revised procedures have been worked out in close consultation with representatives of the fishing industry and I am grateful to them for the constructive approach that they have adopted in their discussions with the Navy.

I am delighted to tell the House that we have now formalised those revised procedures in a code of practice. That has been published today in order to make clear to a wider audience the rules that the Royal Navy now follows. I have arranged for a copy of that document to be placed in the Library of the House.

§ Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow)

The code of practice will be welcomed by all those living along the lower Clyde. Will the Minister assure me that all foreign submarines will come under Royal Navy control here and that that stipulation will apply to American submarines? What consultations have taken place with the United States navy, especially in the light of the recent incident in the Minch involving an American submarine?

§ Mr. Hanley

I am well aware of the hon. Gentleman's keen interest in matters involving the safety of the fishing fleet and I am grateful for the consultations that I had with him and some of his colleagues earlier. I can give him the assurance that, if any foreign submarines of any nation wish to sail in United Kingdom waters, they will abide by the code of conduct, to which most of them already adhere. That has been agreed with other nations and I am pleased to give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that he seeks.

§ Mrs. Ray Michie (Argyll and Bute)

I congratulate the Minister on the publication of the code of conduct, which, as he said, is the result of long discussions following the tragedy involving a vessel from my constituency. I am particularly pleased that the hon. Gentleman managed to reach an agreement with the Department of Transport that the subfacts should still be broadcast by the coastguards. That will be welcome to fishermen.

Can the Minister give me an assurance that any amendments or changes to the code of practice and the subfacts broadcast will always be discussed with the fishing industry before any such changes take place?

§ Mr. Hanley

I pay tribute to the hon. Lady, who has played a leading part in the consultations that led to the successful publication of the code of conduct. This is a non-party issue. It is the safety of men at sea about which we care. I can assure the hon. Lady that the code of practice is intended to be a dynamic document, to which we hope to add in the light of experience. Close consultation between the Royal Navy and the fishing industry will continue.

In taking such measures we have broken new ground and other nations may be able to benefit from our experience. Therefore, we intend to bring the code to the attention of the International Maritime Organisation. Time forbids me from going into any more detail about the code, but, as I have said, it will be published and it is available to hon. Members from today.

Subfacts will continue under the current arrangements for the time being. We intend to extend the subfacts scheme to the Minch and other areas off the west coast of Scotland. Later this year we will also be introducing a subfacts scheme in the Plymouth exercise areas, which have not hitherto been covered, using a British Telecom system. There are ongoing discussions with the Department of Transport, the coastguard and the fishermen's representatives on how best subfacts information should be broadcast in the future.

§ Mr. Nick Ainger (Pembroke)

I have just seen the annex to the code of practice. I am surprised that none of the Welsh coastal areas or St. George's channel are covered by it, because both Welsh and Irish Republic fishing vessels have come into contact with submarines in those areas. Why are not the Welsh coastal areas and St. George's channel included?

§ Mr. Hanley

The hon. Gentleman has seen the map on the back of the document which shows the areas covered by this code of practice and by the subfacts system. Those are areas where we have seen a proven need for the system, but we are always ready to consider an extension to it. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will give me chapter and verse about the incidents to which he refers.

I know that a number of hon. Members take a keen interest in the Merchant Navy. As demonstrated during the Gulf crisis and more recently in the deployment of forces to the former Yugoslavia, merchant shipping continues to play an important role in military operations.

In July 1992 my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement announced the conclusion of a review by Government Departments of the defence requirement for merchant ships in times of crisis. This established that there were still sufficient vessels on the British registers for defence purposes. It did, however, identify the need for further study into the availability of British seafarers to man those vessels.

§ Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby)

This morning the Select Committee on Employment has been investigating the employment consequences of the decline of the merchant fleet. Whatever my hon. Friend may be about to say, there is very little optimism among the merchant shipping contingents—the unions, the Chamber of Shipping or anybody who has submitted evidence to the inquiry—that the merchant fleet will be able to sustain operations in support of the Royal Navy in the future.

§ Mr. Hanley

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments.

The further work that the Ministry of Defence agreed to carry out, together with the Department of Transport, took into account the figures provided by the Chamber of Shipping from its latest fleet and manpower inquiry of federated vessels and a survey conducted by the Department of Transport of the number of British seamen employed in the non-federated sector.

From all the evidence it is clear that there would be no difficulty in manning strategic chartered or requisitioned ships with British crews if that were necessary. Some 12,000 British officers and 14,500 British ratings are employed in the British shipping industry on federated and non-federated ships. The Select Committee will know that from the evidence given to it. That is hugely in excess of the numbers that we would require, even on the most cautious assumptions.

That takes no account of the Merchant Navy Reserve, which itself would be able to provide a substantial part of our manning requirement in an emergency. Of course, where we would be operating in conjunction with NATO or other allies there is no reason why friendly tonnage and crews should not be considered for logistic movements, as we have done in the past.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman) expressed his regret and sadness that the Royal Naval Reserve unit HMS Wildfire is to close. I share those sentiments—as I do about a number of other RNR units which will also be closing—but it is simply not in the interests of the nation or the reserves for the roles and structures to be frozen in the shape required by the cold war. I note, however, that my hon. Friend recognises that 167 the links between the Army and the Medway towns will be strengthened, with Royal Engineer training being largely concentrated in Chatham, at Brompton barracks.

§ Mr. Spencer Batiste (Elmet)

Many of us were prepared to support "Defending Our Future" on the basis that the match which it made between commitments and resources and the procurement programme that was financed under it would be implemented. We are now concerned that important features of that programme might be under threat. For example, I am worried about the future of our tank forces and the procurement programme for them, and many colleagues on the Conservative Benches are worried about other elements of the programme, which we believe to be integral to the White Paper. What comfort can my hon. Friend offer us? When will he be able to make announcements about the procurement programmes, which are long overdue?

§ Mr. Hanley

The House has heard what my hon. Friend said and Government spokesmen have heard what he has said. The issues are complex. It is a sensitive time for decisions about finance. The time for decisions will arrive, but I am grateful for his comments.

§ Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South)

Does the Minister accept that there are many Conservative Members for whom a further cut of £1 billion would not be acceptable?

§ Mr. Hanley

I can confirm that there are Conservative Members for whom a cut of £1 billion would not be acceptable. [Interruption.] I do not intend to identify individual Members or individual Benches.

Let me mention our internal initiatives to increase efficiency and obtain the best value for money from the taxpayer, to which several hon. Members referred during last night's debate. I can today confirm additional proposals aimed at enhancing the effectiveness of the support area and ensuring that the size of the support organisation is appropriate to the size of the front line.

§ Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster)

Will my hon. Friend give way?

§ Mr. Hanley

Would my hon. Friend allow me to make some progress?

We have no intention of bolstering the size of the support area at the expense of the front line. We are determined to make all necessary efficiency savings that are commensurate with operational requirements and effectiveness.

§ Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman

I wish to make a somewhat oblique argument on the subject of cost-effectiveness. There is no more cost-effective force in the country than the reservists. Although we all appreciate the enhanced role that some of those have been given, it would be a great pity if, in parallel to that, their numbers were to be reduced. I know that the document says that a reduction is not necessary, but a reduction in that cost-effective force —which occupies our young people so effectively in their spare time—would be regrettable and I hope that it will not be contemplated.

§ Mr. Hanley

The hon. Lady is taking advantage of the consultation period to state her views about the structure of 168 the reserves. The reserves play a valuable part, not only in the history and tradition, but in the present formation of the armed forces. They are very valuable, but we must assess, in the light of changing circumstances, the proper military role for our reserves and then we must assess the numbers that are necessary to meet that commitment. That is part of the debate that is going on.

§ Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough)

I shall refer to one aspect of the support service—the Army Records Office in my constituency, which, sadly, has had to be closed so that all the offices can be relocated in Glasgow. Can my hon. Friend confirm that those who are to be made redundant in South Wigston in my constituency will receive the best possible redundancy package, outplacing, counselling and so forth, so that those who have worked so hard for the Ministry of Defence will be properly compensated when the time comes for them to give up service with the military forces?

§ Mr. Hanley

I can give the assurance that my hon. Friend requires. I will return to the subject of the Army personnel centre later if I am given the opportunity to do so.

§ Mr. Keith Mans (Wyre)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the efficiency savings that the Ministry of Defence has made during the past few years have been within a very small percentage of the targets that it set itself and much better than those achieved by virtually any other Department of state? Does he agree that if other Departments of State had done what the Ministry of Defence has done, we would not have quite such a large public sector borrowing requirement?

§ Mr. Hanley

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his tribute to the Ministry of Defence, which is wholly justified, but no single Government Department could not do more, could not do better and could not continue that process. We must always root out inefficiency, especially in the armed forces. The vital aim of our armed forces is not to provide a job protection scheme for the support services, but to ensure that we have an efficient and effective sharp end. We must have effective armed forces and for that we must not waste a penny that should be spent on making sure that our people are better trained and equipped.

§ Several hon. Members

rose—

§ Mr. Hanley

I have not made as much progress as I would like. I shall give way later.

The House will recall that, on 25 May this year, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Mr. Hamilton) announced a proposal to discontinue in-service first degree engineer officer education for naval officers at the royal naval engineering college at Manadon in Plymouth in preference to a pre-entry engineering degree sponsorship scheme based in the civilian university sector. That proposal stems from a reduction, from about 90 to only 60 students per annum, in the Navy's requirement for engineer officers entering service. About 30 of those already are, and will continue to be, recruited from private sector universities, but that reduction in numbers clearly affects the cost-effectiveness and efficiency of maintaining an expensive "university" facility.

I received many powerful representations about our proposals, in particular from my hon. Friends the Members 169 for Plymouth, Sutton (Mr. Streeter) and for Plymouth, Drake (Dame. J. Fookes), who made a forceful case for the retention of RN officer training at Manadon. I considered those representations carefully, but concluded that the proposals should be confirmed—as those hon. Members, and hon. Members with a constituency interest, will know from the letters that I wrote to them last month informing them of my decision. The sponsorship scheme will save money frm the defence budget and will take advantage of high-quality education available through the university sector.

§ Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow)

What attempt has been made to sell the wonderful facilities that this country has for training naval and other personnel to our NATO allies? Might not other countries be interested to send officers to Manadon and more trainees to Portland, for example, thus reducing the need to cut those facilities so drastically?

§ Mr. Hanley

I assure my hon. Friend that every effort is made to provide those facilities. There is great demand for courses of all lengths and at all ranks from nations throughout the world. Our education is second to none. However, there is a requirement for 30 engineers only to be trained in the Royal Navy by those means, plus the other 30, whom we shall manage to recruit from the university sector.

§ Mr. Gary Streeter (Plymouth, Sutton)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for clarifying the situation with regard to those engineering courses at Manadon college. I congratulate him on his full consultation exercise. Will he tell us something about the premises? They command a central position in Plymouth and are a magnificent asset. We want them to be transferred to the university of Plymouth so that they will be retained as an asset to the city and used for education. Is his Department prepared to go down that route?

§ Mr. Hanley

I repeat my tribute to my hon. Friend for the efforts that he made. He is right about the quality of the building at Manadon; it is superb and has been rightly defended by all those who have had anything to do with it or who know it. The Ministry of Defence has a responsibility to make the best use of its resources and assets, but the city council has made it clear to us that it regards the building as being of great importance. Having first investigated any possible further use of the building for military training purposes, we shall consider further and hold discussions with the council about a continuing educational use. That would seem to be sensible. 'We cannot rule out anything, nor should we rule out anything at this stage, but we are well aware of what my hon. Friend has said.

I am now able to tell the House that we have decided to select the university of Southampton for the sponsorship scheme. All the universities under consideration were of a very high standard. Indeed, there was a shortlist of about eight universities, but the university of Southampton emerged as offering the best course content and quality relevant to the Navy's requirements in the marine, weapon and air engineering disciplines. The university was also judged to offer the best academic reputation, marketability and geographic location to meet the Navy's specific needs. In no way do I want to run down any of the other seven, but we decided that Southampton was the best location for 170 those 30 students. The Navy is engaged on work with the university to ensure that the campus is absolutely fit for the autumn 1994 intake.

As part of our continuing rationalisation of the Royal Navy, we have also looked at the requirment for berths, known as Z-berths, that are approved for occasional visits by nuclear-powered submarines for rest and recreation or operational reasons. The current number of Z-berths and their locations were derived from assessments carried out in the 1980s, when a larger fleet of nuclear-powered attack submarines was envisaged than is required today. Given the reduction of our nuclear-powered attack submarine fleet to 12 boats and the changing operating patterns of our submarines as they measure up to the new challenges of an unsettled world, it is now clear that not all the berths currently designated as Z-berths will be required. We have therefore decided that Z-berth status will be withdrawn from the following locations in Scotland: at Loch Fyne, Lamlash, Loch Torridon, Loch Na Beiste and Thurso bay; and at Barry and Swansea in Wales.

Approved locations for visits by nuclear-powered warships will remain at about 25 to 30 general locations around the United Kingdom. While we are confident that the remaining berths around the coast of England, Scotland and Wales will be sufficient for the needs of the Royal Navy, the situation will be kept under review.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the local authorities and communities around our coasts that have hosted visits by our nuclear submarines during past years.

Turning to the Army and the question asked earlier, as many hon. Members with a constituency interest will recall, we have been considering improving the cost-effectiveness of the Army's personnel management organisation. A study was carried out last year which concluded that a single integrated Army personnel centre should be created and housed in an existing commercial building in Glasgow—Tay house. It was said that that would allow staff savings of 38 per cent., by comparison with the current organisation—a very useful reduction in support costs.

Subsequent events, in particular the identification of an alternative existing building in Stockport, are well documented and I will not dwell on them now. I shall, however, take this opportunity to thank all those hon. Members who contributed so usefully to the debate, especially my hon. Friends the Members for Harborough (Mr. Garnier), for City of Chester (Mr. Brandreth) and for Exeter (Sir J. Hannam), who advocated alternative solutions so forcefully, and the hon. Members for Stockport (Ms Coffey) and for York (Mr. Bayley) and the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner).

I assure them that a number of those options, particularly those for new build, were most attractive indeed and I examined them very carefully. However, over a 25-year period, the option of going to the eventual destination of Kentigern house in Glasgow will produce savings of about £150 million when compared to the costs of the organisation as it stands today. That seems to me to be absolutely certain as far as acceptance is concerned.

§ Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North)

First, I welcome the fact that the original choice of hierarchy for the personnel department has been confirmed, despite some delays. Secondly, I would like some clarification on the number of new jobs. Various figures for the exact number have been given to different organisations in Glasgow. In 171 May this year 700 new jobs were spoken of, but it seems that they might not all be new. They might be taken by people who previously worked in other areas or departments of the Ministry of Defence and the number of new jobs could be as low as 200. Can the Minister say how many new jobs will be created in Glasgow by the move?

§ Mr. Hanley

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have said that if anyone wishes to remain within the Army personnel office they will be given a job. The number of places available in Glasgow will therefore very much depend on how many people want to move there. Our estimate is unchanged from the figure of 700 that he mentioned, but that is merely an estimate and if Glasgow sells itself to the people who work throughout the rest of the United Kingdom there may not be as many new jobs as he mentioned.

§ Dr. Reid

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that reply. He has narrowed the possible take-up of slack to the people who work in the personnel office and it is only fair that they should have the opportunity to go to Glasgow. However, will he confirm that people who work in other departments of the MoD and who may be superfluous to needs, either because of agency status or efficiencies in their departments, will also have the right of first call on the jobs in Glasgow—or is that rumour unsubstantiated and untrue?

§ Mr. Hanley

I am not aware of any guarantees, but I can certainly clarify the position for the hon. Gentleman. I was not aware that he was going to raise the matter and I am not sure of the terms of service of people throughout the Ministry of Defence. It is my understanding that those people in the personnel centre have been given guarantees on relocation and costs for going to Glasgow. The matter is very much in the lap of the gods, but I shall clarify it subsequently with the hon. Gentleman if he wishes.

There are now about 16 defence agencies employing about 40,000 service and civilian staff. Our plans envisage the Ministry of Defence police—which comprises some 5,000 staff—being the next support organisation to become a defence agency. Plans are also well advanced for launching the RAF training group as a defence agency.

I should like to mention civil servants and to pay a tribute to all those who work in the Ministry of Defence, both those who support me and my Front Bench colleagues so ably in London, and those at our units and establishments around the country. We must not lose sight of the fact that this is a difficult time not only for the service men and women affected by the changes in the armed forces, but for all the civilians affected by the disruptions and uncertainties of management and efficiency initiatives.

The House will be aware that there have been several media articles recently about the number of so-called bureaucrats in the Ministry of Defence, comparing numbers and functions unfavourably with those in the armed forces.

As many officials as soldiers", is one such quote. Let us hear another.

§ Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside)

The Minister is very patient. May I remind him that the Secretary of State and the Minister of State both visited RAF Sealand in my 172 constituency. I have heard them mention the word efficiency in connection with the Royal Air Force. There is a great concern at RAF Sealand about the impact of market testing on jobs. Will there be a level playing field and a guarantee of a fair and proper chance to compete? Will tenders be evaluated independently and objectively?

When those Ministers visited RAF Sealand they were very impressed by what they saw. I want a commitment from the Minister that there will be a level playing field. Will he accept that my constituents are very willing and that, ideally, he should not go forward with market testing?

§ Mr. Hanley

The RAF benefits considerably from market testing, but there will be independent evaluators on the assessment panel. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the level playing field that he wants is there. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister of State were both murmuring their appreciation of RAF Sealand as he spoke. It is an impressive facility, but the RAF must look for improvements and efficiency in all its operations.

I used the quote about there being as many officials as soldiers, which is terribly misleading. Indeed, my hon. Friends the Members for Wimbledon (Dr. Goodson-Wickes) and for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin) last night referred to the cost of civil servants and their apparently large numbers. I am afraid that the figures that have been published in some of the articles are totally misleading.

Last April, the totals were 156,500 civilians and 274,000 serving members of the armed forces. It is somewhat unfair to pick just soldiers in the regular Army. Since 1979, there has been a 48 per cent. reduction in the number of United Kingdom-based MOD civil servants. Headquarters' numbers, which include civilians and military, are being reduced by about 20 per cent. and top civilian posts have already been cut by 13 per cent.—top service posts by 12 per cent. Nor, despite the civilianisation of posts, has the proportion of civilians to military staff increased. On the contrary, the civilian-service ratio has reduced since 1980, from 86 per cent. to 57 per cent.

§ Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury)

Does my hon. Friend accept that large numbers of jobs have been privatised—for instance, people working in the royal ordnance factories and the royal dockyards used to appear as civil servants? The more important factor is surely not the aggregate total of civil servants—including scientists, technologists and so on—but the proportion of people involved in bean counting. That proportion has increased in many areas as a result of the introduction of executive responsibility budgets. In just one area, the training establishment, 70 extra posts of this kind have been created.

§ Mr. Hanley

I am afraid that in a previous life I, too, was a professional bean counter, so I understand what my hon. Friend is saying. The total number of what we might classify as pure bureaucrats or pen-pushers, like Sir Humphrey or his acolytes, is 30,000 in the MOD—quite a slimmed-down total, given the service that they provide. When I talk about reductions in support areas I am also talking about reductions in the MOD. We are continually looking at that matter.

It is equally wrong to talk of civilians in the MOD as a separate arm unrelated to the services. The fact is that a high proportion are recruited and managed by the services 173 themselves and provide them with essential support. Many of them are scientific, technical and engineering staff. I have found the civilian staff in the MOD utterly professional and highly competent. Perhaps it is the competition with their armed forces colleagues that helps to bring out the best in them—I am sure that the armed forces would say so. I happen to think that it is the high quality of the civil servants that brings out the best in their armed forces' colleagues in the MOD.

It is no coincidence that the services are enthusiastic about the civilianisation of posts that do not require to be filled by service manpower, because that frees service men to do the job that they are meant to be doing.

I am delighted to announce a number of positive developments in the employment of women in the armed forces, a matter to which my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway) referred in colourful language last night, not to mention my hon. Friend the Member for Western-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin)—

§ Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset)

I echo my hon. Friend's words about the high quality of the people whom we employ, many of whom realise that there must be large numbers of redundancies. But perhaps what I have been saying has been misinterpreted: they are telling me—the Minister paid tribute to their professionalism just now—that they do not think that the savings made from their salaries should be spent over 15 years on putting up new office blocks. I have been told today that the Treasury is providing £1–143 billion over and above the £1 billion for defence refurbishment. Staff want that figure to be cut, not the number of our forces.

§ Mr. Hanley

Every new project needs an investment appraisal and MOD Ministers will look carefully at such appraisals. The accounting officer at the MOD, the permanent under-secretary, will ensure that the most cost-effective option is the one selected.

To return to women in the armed forces: as from 1 November, the Women's Royal Naval Service will be fully integrated with the Royal Navy. This move is aimed at enhancing the career opportunities for women and the way is now open for women to reach the highest ranks in the Royal Navy. Indeed, the move can be said to pave the way for the first woman member of the Navy Board.

Some people may perceive integration as the disappearance of a broad and historic tradition, that of the Wrens, but I do not believe that it will be. With some few exceptions, men and women in the services will be recruited, trained, developed, promoted and paid in exactly the same way and they will have the same rank titles. Integration is the inevitable and logical culmination of a series of changes made since the 1970s, when women first came under the Naval Discipline Act 1957, and then in 1990, when women went to sea. It should be viewed positively, as a means of ensuring that women can compete on fully equal terms with men, without any artificial barriers to promotion on merit.

Contrary to what some media stories might lead the uninitiated to beleve, mixed manning at sea has proved a real success story. Increasing numbers of women are serving at sea and all new surface ships are built with facilities for women. There are now nearly 800 women serving on 27 surface warships. It would be foolish to pretend that incidents do not occur on board ships between men and women—indeed, it would be surprising if the 174 Navy were the only workplace where they did not occur. But the great majority of men and women in the Navy are going about their jobs in a responsible, disciplined and professional manner.

§ Mr. Mark Wolfson (Sevenoaks)

I congratulate Ministers, naval officers and other service officers on their real progress in this area. It has shown how equal opportunities can pay off in terms of efficiency and opportunity.

§ Mr. Hanley

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. The policy of the Royal Navy is that all areas of work should be open to women, and that has been achieved in all but a few areas, such as the submarine flotilla and the Royal Marines commando forces, where there are real practical obstacles. The decision not to employ women in the current classes of submarine will be revisited in about five years' time and the potential for further employment with the Royal Marines—as RM bandsmen—is already under review.

§ Dr. Godman

Can the Minister estimate the number of Wrens or women sailors or female members of the Royal Navy who have been dismissed in each of the past 20 years on the grounds of pregnancy? In the light of the findings of recent industrial tribunals in the cases of women dismissed from other services, have naval commanding officers in bases and on ships been given a new code of practice?

§ Mr. Hanley

I have to admit to a deficiency: I do not carry in my head the exact numbers of women dismissed for pregnancy from ships in each of the past 20 years. With cries of "shame!" ringing in my ears, I assure the hon. Gentleman that I will reply to him in detail with the information he requires.

§ Mr. Winston Churchill (Davyhulme)

At the risk of trespassing once again into the field of political incorrectitude, I must tell my hon. Friend that I suspect that he and his defence colleagues, and senior serving officers, would take a different view of the idea of putting women in the front line if they thought there was any serious prospect of an imminent major war.

§ Mr. Hanley

I cannot accept that. Some people may live in a different age or may have been born in a different age, but I would think it wrong if the armed forces refused to recruit a woman who had shown ability and a desire to serve in the Royal Navy and who was competent so to serve. After all, as my hon. Friend knows, we have had a woman Prime Minister and there is no reason why we cannot have women doing everything.

§ Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman (Lancaster)

Does my hon. Friend accept that it was every bit as dangerous for the women who served on RAF stations during the last war as it is to serve in the Royal Navy now?

§ Mr. Hanley

I agree absolutely. I seem to recall that some of the stories of the greatest bravery to come out of the second world war involved women who served in the Special Operations Executive and in various undercover roles. They suffered far more than did many of our serving men operating in more conventional roles. I believe that women can grasp the opportunities offered by the modern armed forces. I pay a great tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Mr. Hamilton) for his 175 leadership in introducing women into the armed forces. The armed forces will be grateful to my right hon. Friend for years to come.

It was decided earlier this year that women should in future be able to serve as officers and ratings in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. There was no immediate reason to recruit any personnel into that service, male or female, but now there have been recruits. The RFA has been brought into line with the Royal Navy and the merchant service and that will be implemented progressively.

The most recent recruitment campaign has resulted in three women being selected as officer cadets and I have every expectation that that number will be increased as future recruitment opportunities arise. The three women cadets commenced training last month and they have now embarked on a RFA vessel for a five-month seagoing course.

It has also been decided that female staff of the Royal Navy Supply and Transport Service should be eligible for temporary postings on board RFA vessels as part of their career development, in the same way as their male colleagues. I am pleased to say that the first two female staff have already been appointed to RFA Fort Austin.

Since the disbandment of the Women's Royal Army Corps in April 1992, women have been fully integrated into their employing corps. The integration continues to go well, as I saw myself in Germany earlier this year. All soldier recruits are now trained in mixed-sex platoons in the Army training regiments. Apart from some aspects of physical training, the recruitment programme is identical for men and women. More than 100 career employment groups are now open to women and they are proving successful in areas previously open only to men. The first two female helicopter pilots have now qualified and are serving with their units.

At present women in the regular Army are excluded from the Royal Armoured Corps and the infantry on the grounds of operational effectiveness, but as part of its initiative to employ women more widely, the Army is continuing to devise and validate gender-free testing. The testing, which it is hoped will be introduced in 1995, will help by determining suitability for a particular specialisation according to physical capacity rather than by gender.

Women in the Royal Air Force compete on equal terms with men for appointments, training places and promotion and are now eligible for nearly all branches and trades. There are now eight female pilots and 17 trained female navigators. A further 21 pilots and six navigators are undergoing training. Of the eight trained pilots, two have qualified as fast-jet pilots and will be undertaking Tornado training. The remaining six are serving either as flying instructors, as search and rescue helicopter pilots or as co-pilots in Hercules transport aircraft.

I must say to my hon. Friends who are mumbling in the background that that is not because of political correctness, but through self-interest and trying to get the best people into the armed forces.

§ Mr. Thomas Graham (Renfrew, West and Inverclyde)

Will the Minister reassure the House that the ladies who are to be trained as helicopter pilots will not be used in the way helicopters were used in Scotland—to 176 service a Conservative party theft? Will the Minister assure the House that the women will be put to better things than raising money for the Conservative party?

§ Mr. Hanley

I would rather take a woman on a helicopter than the hon. Gentleman; unless, of course, one were to 'use a Sikorsky heavy lift.

Hon. Members will recall that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Defence announced the award of battle honours to those ships, regiments and squadrons that took part in the campaign in the Gulf. At that time, the Army regiments and corps and the RAF squadrons had not been selected for battle honours.

I am pleased to be able to tell the House that Her Majesty the Queen has approved the award of battle honours to the Army regiments and corps and RAF squadrons which took part in the campaign to liberate Kuwait. The list of the units to receive honours has been set out in my answer today to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland). The House will wish to join me in welcoming the award of battle honours as a permanent record of the contribution made by the Army and RAF to the liberation of Kuwait and in passing on our congratulations to the men and women involved.

Finally, yesterday the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) raised the matter of our long-term ammunition orders. As my hon. Friend the Minister for Defence Procurement pointed out, as the tender period had not yet expired, the hon. Gentleman was rather—as it were—jumping the gun.

Happily, I can now say more on that important subject. My hon. Friend announced to the House on 20 January that our intention was to offer longer-term contracts for ammunition. The aim was to both secure the sources of supply for key types of ammunition and to give industry greater confidence with which to plan ahead and invest. Tenders for the long-term contracts have now been evaluated and I am pleased to be able to tell the House that it is our intention to offer Royal Ordnance plc a contract worth almost £200 million for a package of ammunition requirements covering the period until 1998. The package covers all ammunition requirements in the long-term buy. It includes small arms ammunition, tank training ammunition and charges and some other minor requirements. We expect that the contract will maintain almost 1,000 jobs.

The House will agree that that is excellent news both for our armed forces and for the company. Royal Ordnance's impressive win against an array of top-class international opposition demonstrates clearly the remarkable efficiency improvements that have been made since privatisation. Our policy of long-term ammunition buying makes clear our commitment to achieving value for money to make the best of the sharp end of our armed forces. I also believe that it shows our understanding of the needs and concerns 6f the developing defence industry.

§ Dr. David Clarke (South Shields)

rose—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. Has the Minister given way, or has he finished his speech?

§ Mr. Hanley

I had finished, but, out of courtesy, may I pretend that I had not?

§ Dr. Clark

May I thank the Minister and, with similar courtesy, say that I am grateful for his announcement? I am 177 sorry that I was 24 hours premature, but the announcement will be welcomed in all parts of the House. It means that the men and women who work in Royal Ordnance factories have a secure future and it is a recognition of their skill, which is second to none in the world.

§ Mr. Hanley

The hon. Gentleman's comments will be echoed throughout the House.

§ Mrs. Ann Winterton (Congleton)

rose—

§ Mr. Hanley

I shall now pretend for a second time that I have not finished my speech.

§ Mrs. Winterton

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way so late in the day. May I also welcome the statement that he has made today? It will be very much welcomed in my constituency. The people who work at Radway Green making small arms ammunition for the Army will be delighted by the news. It is good for employment in the future and for investment. As the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) said, Royal Ordnance has a splendid record of achievement since privatisation.

§ Mr. Hanley

My hon. Friend's comments are justified. Hon. Members like good news from time to time, and it is even nicer when people on both sides of the House support the Government in their policies.

§ Dr. John Reid (Motherwell, North)

May I thank the Minister for his courtesy, and for his dual pretence as he ended? It surprises me that a Defence Minister can pretend with such ability and that is probably the first time that he has had to do so.

The Minister made a long speech with a considerable number of announcements. I do not want to reply to all of those, but I shall comment on one or two. My hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) has already expressed his pleasure regarding the Royal Ordnance contract, and we also welcome the announcement of the code of practice regarding fishermen and submarines.

May I also take the opportunity to thank in retrospect —although it is not a party issue—my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Mr. Mackinlay) for his private Members' Bill this afternoon? My hon. Friend spoke for many hon. Members on both sides of the House. I find the argument that, if an injustice occurred a few years ago, we should just bury it and forget about it quite astonishing. Many innocent people would be languishing in British goals if the same attitude were taken as was espoused by the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Evans).

§ Mr. Graham

My hon. Friends will be aware that Royal Ordnance factory workers from Bishopton, who won a famous victory to keep the factory open, are here today listening to the debate. They must be delighted to hear the news that the Government's long-awaited decision has now been reached. After sweating blood, the work force will once again sweat blood to ensure that Britain is safe in a crisis. That is more than the Tory Government will do.

§ Dr. Reid

I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful comment. We all congratulate the workers at Bishopton, especially those who are here tonight. Indeed, we congratulate workers at all Royal Ordnance factories As the Minister said, they have achieved considerable 178 increases in efficiency and productivity. I congratulate them on what my hon. Friend calls a famous victory. I am sure that all hon. Members and the workers at Bishopton unite in congratulating the Member of Parliament who represents Bishopton on the sweat, blood and tears that he put in to ensure that the contract went to the Royal Ordnance factories.

§ Mr. Phil Gallie (Ayr)

The hon. Member for Renfrew, West and Inverclyde (Mr. Graham) cast a slur on those who operate our helicopters. We have a major station at HMS Gannet in my constituency. The people there do a great job for those in Scotland and beyond in air-sea rescue. Would the. hon. Member for Motherwell, North (Dr. Reid) like to make the point that our helicopter service is a good one in safe hands?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. Before we progress, I remind hon. Members that no fewer than 32 right hon. and hon. Members want to take part in the debate. There have been many interventions. That is right and proper, but they were probably from people who do not intend to speak in the debate. Some hon. Members who are present and who sat here through yesterday's debate will be denied the opportunity to speak if there are too many interventions.

§ Dr. Reid

I appreciate that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I sat here all day yesterday waiting to speak. I am not getting far in the first five minutes of my speech. I have no hesitation in agreeing with the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallic) or in congratulating not only the pilots who fly our helicopters but those who build helicopters—just in case any hon. Member present represents a constituency that produces helicopters. If anyone else has a particular constituency interest that he wishes to raise, will he or she write to me? I wil raise it in my next speech in opposition to the Minister.

I should like the Minister who is to reply to answer a question in connection with HMS Active, which is normally in the Caribbean and is being sent to Haiti. Will he confirm that when HMS Active goes from the Caribbean to take part in that embargo it will be under the command and control of the United Nations, not the United States? I should be grateful if we could have that important clarification.

Traditionally on these occasions we express gratitude to our soldiers, seamen, airmen and service women. Although we do so by convention and tradition, our gratitude is no less sincere. Along with others, I thank them, wherever they serve and whatever their role in the armed forces. We also thank their families, who bear the burden of their absence, share in the sacrifice of the risks that they take. In their own way, those families commit themselves to public service. In an age in which public service is denigrated, we forget that those who fulfil the greatest public service because they take the greatest risk are those in our armed forces. They do not ask what their country can do for them or even what they can do for their country—they simply go out and do it. We take that for granted on occasions.

It is only natural when we give those thanks that we should think particularly of those who are under active fire at present. We mention, not unnaturally, those in Ireland and Bosnia. But today of all days, it is also appropriate to remind ourselves of those who carry out a vital, delicate and risky task manning the green line that separates two potentially hostile parties in Cyprus.

179 Today, it is appropriate to send our thanks to Brigadier Dick Lamb and all the men and women who serve with him with the United Nations forces in Cyprus. That task should not be taken for granted by anyone, least of all the beneficiaries of the presence of those soldiers serving in Cyprus. We assure our service men and women that no one in the House from any party takes them for granted. We express deep admiration and appreciation of their efforts.

There has been great interest in the debate and, as the Secretary of State will know, a considerable amount of advice has been given. For instance, I notice that in this evening's newspaper—I do not know whether the Secretary of State has read it—advice is offered by no less an authority on defence reviews than Sir John Nott. Receiving advice from Sir John Nott on defence reviews is a little like reading a marching manual by the grand old Duke of York. Nevertheless, it gives some idea of the widespread unease about the position in which we find ourselves.

I shall put four simple propositions to the House. First, the world is not only changing rapidly but changing in a more dangerous direction which requires us to give more attention to problems that are more numerous and complex. Secondly, in that context, the British defence budget has been cut, is being cut and will continue to be cut.

Thirdly, precisely the mismatch between the first two propositions—the expanding nature of the problems that we face and the pressure to commit ourselves more and more as against the reduction in defence spending—has led to the present near-chaos in both thinking and practice at the Ministry of Defence. The fourth simple proposition —I shall elaborate on all of them—is that the chaos and indecision can and ultimately will be solved only by a full defence review and by making hard choices. I shall explore all those propositions.

Let us take the proposition that the world is becoming more unstable and dangerous. All the Front-Bench speakers so far have told us about various visits that they have made. I want to tell the House about three visits that I have made in company with hon. Members from both sides of the House. Those visits confirmed what I suspected before I went—how dangerous and awful many parts of the world are becoming. On three occasions, I visited Bosnia. It is easy to imagine when we see television pictures that one could never have a worse experience. I hope that I never have an experience like it again.

I stood in a mass grave of 85 eighty-year-old women whose heads had been crushed and whose bodies had been ripped open. They had been put in sacks and thrown into a mass grave. The stench of the slaughterhouse was everywhere. It is not an experience which I want to repeat. I have also talked to the orphans in Bosnia. I have mixed with Muslims in the besieged town of Goradze, which is now composed almost entirely of old women and young children.

I moved from Bosnia to Georgia. I was there before the cameras got there. Like Bosnia, it is a beautiful, pleasant and fruitful land full of tremendous potential. Along with the hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson), I was awakened by the sound of artillery in the beautiful coastal village of Sukhumi. It was unknown nine months 180 ago, but now appears on our television screens as it is bombarded by the Abkhazians. It has become supposedly the last redoubt of Shevardnadze and the Georgians. We have seen that land torn apart by a revolt not only by the Abkhazians but by the South Assettians and various ethnic groups.

From Georgia, I went to the front line in Azerbaijan, where the tragic war between Azerbaijan and Armenia has caused several hundred thousand refugees to flee. The war has wrecked a potentially economically powerful country with amazing resources of oil. It has destabilised the region in its strategic relations between Russia, Turkey and Iran.

As the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Mr. Hamilton) said, all those places were virtually ignored before CNN and Sky Television turned up. There are 20 to 30 other such places, but the cameras are not there. They all have symptoms of a world from which threats have not disappeared but have merely changed form.

Instability is perhaps greater than ever and the risks are more numerous. There are two reasons for that. First, communism and the centralised control of Leninism suppressed many causes of instability, such as ethnic tension, national rivalries, border disputes and sovereignty claims. Those regimes did not eradicate that instability, but for 70 or 80 years the causes were suppressed. Now that the lid of the pressure pot has been lifted by the removal of Leninism, those causes of instability are seen not to have disappeared.

Secondly, for all its horror, the cold war gave a sort of glacial stability to relations between nations. During the cold war, everyone could freely say, "Of course we believe in the self-determination of nations." That was because we knew that in practice no one would recognise a new nation as that would upset the stability of the two great icebergs facing each other. That stability has been taken away.

Another reason will be recognised by Conservative Members. It is that market economics do not immediately deliver prosperity or democracy. This country had market economics for 200 years before it had any form of democracy. Initially, market economics produces unemployment, poverty, insecurity and degradation. That can be seen in Moscow and, indeed, throughout the former Soviet Union. Poverty, insecurity and degradation are the harbingers not of democracy, but of a demand for totalitarianism, whether from the extreme right of nationalist fascism, from communism or, in other parts of the world, from fundamentalism. All those reasons found my first proposition that the world is more unstable than it was before the end of the cold war.

No doubt Conservatives would dispute my second proposition. It is that in the context of growing risks, our defence budget has been cut every year, is still being cut, and is likely to continue to be cut. Before the taunts, may I say that that will happen whatever party is in power, not just because of a conference resolution, but because of the public's natural expectation that, as the cold war is over, there should be some reduction in defence expenditure. Without being too jaundiced, I should say that it will also happen because of the Government's economic failure and the tragic £50 billion deficit in the public sector borrowing requirement.

It does not take a mathematical genius to work out that there have been cuts. Under current plans, by 1995 the defence budget will have fallen by 20 per cent. in real terms since 1985–86. If the Treasury succeeds in forcing a further £1 billion cut in the annual defence budget, the drop in 181 defence expenditure between 1985 and 1995 will be about 25 per cent. If, as is likely, expenditure under a Conservative Government continues to fall at that rate until the end of the decade—it is likely to do so and we have not been assured that it will not—the defence budget will have fallen by more than 33 per cent. in real terms between 1985 and the year 2000.

It is sheer hypocrisy for Tories to condemn conference resolutions to cut defence expenditure to the European average when the Government have been cutting it in practice by an even greater amount than the theoretical cuts of those resolutions.

§ Mr. Churchill

By how much more would a Labour Government cut defence now and in the years ahead?

§ Dr. Reid

I thought that the hon. Gentleman was not only listening intently but was capable of understanding simple English. At no stage did I say that we would not have cut it. I explicitly said that under any Government it would have been cut. The hon. Gentleman asks by how much more we would have cut it. We would not necessarily have cut it by any more than the Government. If it is cut by £1 billion over the next three years, as the Treasury wants, by the year 2000 there will be a 40 per cent. cut in real terms. If that happens, not only will the Government have surpassed Labour party conference resolutions, but they will be well on the way to meeting the demands of the Liberal party.

We made it plain in our last manifesto that we will provide whatever is required for the defence of the United Kingdom. That is still our position. We also made it plain that we want a full defence review, and I am trying to explain more fully than usual why we want that. My first point was that we have increasing commitments and, secondly, I said that we have a reduced budget. If those two propositions are true—and no hon. Member has yet disputed them—the only way to resolve the mismatch is by a full, open, detailed and rational review of commitments and resources, to bring them into conjunction.

The Government will say that we are wrong, that a defence review is not needed. They told us that when we said two and a half years ago that their figures on the infantry were wrong, but then they admitted that we were right. They told us that we were wrong about the tactical air-to-surface missile. For two and a half years, I have told the Government that they could not afford TASM and that there was no military need for it. They told us that we were wrong, but yesterday they publicly accepted that we were right.

For two and a half years, I said that we could determine the reliability and safety of nuclear weapons without testing, but they said that it could not be done. The President of the United States thinks that it can be done. We have constantly told Ministers with all their civil servants—whether it is 150,000 or 250,000—things that they apparently did not know. I shall take a gamble by predicting that Tomahawk missiles will replace TASM. Those missiles will be put on Trident, as I think the Ministry of Defence already knows but is not telling us.

Perhaps I and The Herald of Glasgow, which is one of my sources, are wrong about that, but the defence correspondent of that newspaper was more correct about the infantry and about TASM than the Secretary of State for Defence. We shall see from an announcement about 182 Tomahawk cruise missiles and Trident submarines whether, once again, that correspondent has been more right than the Secretary of State.

Let us examine the muddled thinking involved in the mismatch between resources and commitments in the absence of a course of action to relate them. It is difficult to get Ministers, even Ministers such as the Minister of State for Defence Procurement, who has committed his life to open government, to speak openly. That is because they are constrained by civil servants and by convention, and by the guard dogs that accompany them everywhere. But occasionally the guard slips, and nowhere is it likely to slip more quickly than from a Minister who has just resigned. That gives rise to 'a free flow of thought a