HC Deb 25 February 1993 vol 219 cc1023-119

Amendment proposed [22 February]:No. 13, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert '(except Title XIV on pages 36 and 37 of Cm 1934)'.—[Dr. John Cunningham.]

Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.

The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Michael Morris)

I remind the Committee that we are also considering the following: Amendment No. 28, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `(provided that in the implementation of Articles 198(a), (b) and (c) on pages 54 and 55 of Cm 1934 concerning the Committee of the Regions, the 24 members and 24 alternate members of that Committee shall be drawn from elected local government representatives.)'. Amendment (b) to amendment No. 28, in line 4, after `representatives', insert `who in the case of Scotland will include a minimum of one member and one alternative member nominated by each of the four major Scottish political parties'. Amendment No. 102, in page 1, line line 9, after 'II', insert `(except Article 198(a) on page 54 of Cm 1934 which relates to the Committee of the Regions)'. Amendment No. 103, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert '(except Article 130(a) on page 36 of Cm 1934 which relates to regional policy)'. Amendment No. 106, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert '(provided that implementation of Articles 198(a)(b) and (c) on pages 54 and 55 of Cm 1934 establishing the Committee of the Regions, shall make provision for the direct election of the members and alternate members of that Committee to represent Wales; that those voting in such direct elections shall be local authority elected members, Members representing Welsh constituencies and Members of the European Parliament representing Welsh constituencies; and that there shall he two separate elections the first of which shall provide for representation of the counties of South and Mid Glamorgan and Gwent, and the second for the counties of Gwynedd, Clwyd, Dyfed, Powys and West Glamorgan)'. Amendment No. 107, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `(provided that in the implementation of Articles 198(a), (b) and (c) on pages 54 and 55 of Cm 1934 establishing the Committee of the Regions, the members of that Committee representing Wales and their alternates shall be directly elected by a vote of local authority elected members from Wales, Members elected from Welsh constituencies and Members of the European Parliament representing Welsh constituencies and by none other).' Amendment No. 111, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `(provided that on the implementation of Articles 198(a), (b) and (c) on pages 54 and 55 of Cm 1934 establishing the Committee of the Regions, the members of that Committee shall include the eight members of the European Parliament representing Scottish constituencies).'. Amendment No. 156, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `except Article 130a'.

Amendment No. 157, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `except Article 130b'.

Amendment No. 158, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert 'except Article 130c'.

Amendment No. 187, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `except Article 3(j)'.

Amendment No. 198, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `except Article 4b on page 11 of Cm 1934'.

Amendment No. 229, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `except Article 198e'.

Amendment No. 248, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `except Article 130d'.

Amendment No. 249, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `except Article 130e'.

Amendment No. 273, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `(provided that in the implementation of Articles 198(a), (b) and (c) on pages 54 and 55 of Cm 1934 concerning the Committee of the Regions, the 24 members and 24 alternate members of that Committee shall be drawn from elected local government representatives, and shall include representatives from each English Standard Planning Region as well as representation from Scotland and Wales.)'. Amendment No. 332, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert '(except Article 198a on page 56 of Cm 1934)'. Amendment No. 425, in page I, line 9, after 'II', insert `provided that United Kingdom members of the Committee of the Regions established under article 198 (a) on page 54 of Cm 1934, of whom at least nine shall be representatives of Wales, shall not be nominated until Parliament has had the opportunity of considering a Bill introduced by Her Majesty's Government to provide for an elected all-Wales forum to elect the representatives of Wales who shall reflect the political balance on the forum, and providing for a monthly report to be made by the representatives to the forum.'. Amendment No. 431, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `(provided that implementation of Articles 198 (a) (b) and (c) on pages 54 and 55 of Cm 1934, establishing the Committee of the Regions, shall make provision for the direct election of the members and alternate members of that Committee to represent Wales and that those voting in such direct elections shall be local authority elected members).'. Amendment No. 432, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert `(provided that in the implementation of Articles 198(a), (b) and (c) on pages 54 and 55 of Cm 1934, establishing the Committee of the Regions, the members of that Committee representing Wales and their alternates shall be directly elected by a vote of local authority elected members from Wales.).' Amendment No. 438, in page 1, line 9, after 'II', insert ',except that articles 198(a), (b) and (c) on pages 54 and 55 of Cm 1934 may only have effect if the nominated members and alternate members of the committee of regions are numerically and politically representative in proportion to the populations of the countries of the United Kingdom, and the Standard Economic Planning Regions of England,'. Amendment No. 418, in page 1, line 9, after 'IV', insert '(except Articles 166, 168 and 170 on pages 76 and 77 of Cm 1934).'. Amendment No. 56, in page 1, line 10, after '1992', insert `but not Article 198 in Title II thereof'. Amendment No. 62, in page 1, line 10, after '1992', insert `but not the Protocol on the Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions.'. Amendment No. 150, in page 1, line 10, after '1992', insert `but not Article 170 in Title IV thereof'. Amendment No. 223, in page 1, line 10, after '1992', insert, 'excluding Article 194 thereof'.

Amendment No. 226, in page 1, line 10, after '1992', insert 'but not the Protocol on Economic and Social Cohesion'. New clause 26—Committee of the regions— `In meeting its obligations under Article 198(a) on page 54 of Cm. 1943 Her Majesty's Government shall ensure that at least eight representatives of the Committee of the regions are from Scotland and that the Secretary of State for Scotland shall select such representatives from a list of candidates submitted to him by any organisation representative of Scottish local authorities.'. New clause 41—Regional representation— 'In discharging its responsibilities under Article 198(a) on page 54 of Cm. 1934 the Government shall ensure that those serving on the proposed Committee of the Regions shall reflect, on a proportional basis, votes cast for political parties in Scotland and Wales at the most recently held election for the European Parliament.'. New clause 61—Economic and Social Cohesion (No. 1)— 'Her Majesty's Government shall report to Parliament annually on the implementation of their obligation under Article 130b to conduct their economic policy in such a way as in addition, to attain the objectives set out in Article 130a.'. New clause 62—Economic and Social Cohesion (No. 2)— 'Her Majesty's Government shall report to Parliament on the European Commission report, provided for in Article 130b, on the progress made towards achieving economic and social cohesion; and no action may be taken by the Government in respect of any accompanying proposals, as provided for in Article 130b, without the Commission report first having been considered by the House of Commons.'. New clause 63—Committee of the regions— 'In meeting its obligations under Article 198(a) on page 54 of Cm. 1934 Her Majesty's Government shall ensure that at least eight representatives of the Committee of the regions are from Scotland and that they shall be elected Community, District or Regional councillors, elected by an electoral college or colleges of councillors under a system of proportional representation.'. New clause 64—Representation on Committee of—Regions— 'Before Her Majesty's Government discharges its responsibilities under Article 198(a) on page 54 of Cm. 1934, Parliament shall have had the opportunity of considering a Bill to provide that at least four of the United Kingdom members nominated to the Committee of the Regions shall be from Wales and shall be directly elected by the people of Wales.'. New Clause 65—Regional representation (Scotland)— 'Before Her Majesty's Government discharges its responsibilities under Article 198(a) on page 54 of Cm. 1934, Parliament shall have had the opportunity of considering a Bill to provide that at least nine members nominated to the Committee of the Regions shall be from Scotland and shall be directly elected by the people of Scotland.'.

4.37 pm
Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton)

On a point of order, Mr. Morris. In my original point of order that I raised on Monday this week, when the Committee and, I am sure, the country were very appreciative of your decision concerning an opportunity to debate the effect on ratification of the treaty of amendment 27 being carried, I asked you about a further debate on the substance of amendment 27 and the social protocol. You were good enough to say on Monday: We are some way off a vote on amendment No. 27, and other developments may occur at any time, but at this juncture I am minded to take seriously the need for a further debate before the Committee votes on that amendment"— [Official Report, 22 February 1993; Vol. 219, c. 685.] Since then, my hon. Friend the Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald) has submitted amendment No. 443, in support of which I shall be appending this afternoon the names of Opposition Front-Bench Members. That is clearly related to the subject of the social protocol, the debate on which has come and gone. I seek your guidance, Mr. Morris, since amendment No. 443 does not appear in today's provisional selection of amendments, on what your intention might be on that amendment, the subject in general, and therefore the position of the Committee in relation to fresh amendments on the subject the legal implications of which we discussed on Monday.

The Chairman

As the hon. Gentleman has just demonstrated, developments are always occurring. Right hon. and hon. Members will recall that on Monday I left open the possibility of a further debate on amendment No. 27. As I said then, other developments may occur at any time and I am not therefore prepared to announce my decision now—although, of course, I shall make the Committee aware of my decision in good time. Equally, amendment No. 443, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, is under my consideration. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the issues raised are very complex and there is no immediate need for a decision. My concern now is not to be over-hasty; a little delay will, I think, be wise.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

The Chairman

There can be nothing further to that point of order.

Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)

On a point of order, Mr. Morris. As you are the senior occupant of the Chair during the Committee's proceedings, may I put a point of order to you? Several comments have been made —you may have heard them—regarding our progress, or lack of progress, in the Committee stage. Some of those comments come from abroad. Will you take the opportunity to confirm that it is entirely up to the Committee debating the Bill to decide on progress and that we shall certainly not be influenced in any way by people abroad, however high or senior their positions may be? That applies to Chancellor Kohl—and to anyone else, for that matter.

The Chairman

My job is to ensure that there is a full and fair debate and I am satisfied that we are making adequate progress against that yardstick.

Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)

On a point of order, Mr. Morris. I much appreciate your comments about considering matters in a measured way and examining things carefully over a period, especially since a new and important amendment has been tabled. May I therefore suggest it would be a good idea to adjourn the Committee until next week, to give you the necessary time?

The Chairman

I am always grateful for the hon. Gentleman's kind concern for my well-being, but at the moment I am pretty fit and able to make decisions—when they are appropriate.

Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood)

On a point of order, Mr. Morris. I am sure that you heartened the Committee by saying that you wanted to ensure that there was always full and fair debate, but you will be aware that closures have often been moved in the Committee which have prevented Ministers from replying to important points raised by Back Benchers. I should not wish to impinge on your jurisdiction in any way, but will you do your best to ensure that such abuse of the Committee does not happen?

The Chairman

The Minister will have heard the hon. Gentleman's plea—although I must say that I do not accept his premise.

Mr. Calum Macdonald (Western Isles)

On a point of order, Mr. Morris. I appreciate what you said about the need to consider amendment No. 443 further, but would it be possible to give the Committee any idea when a decision on that important matter may be conveyed to us?

The Chairman

In good time.

Mr. Geoffrey Hoon (Ashfield)

Not many people take three weeks to deliver a speech and I shall endeavour to keep my remarks as short as I can. At the end of the debate on Thursday 4 February, which is recorded in column 576 of the Official Report for that day, we were discussing whether those representing local authorities should be appointed to take all the United Kingdom's places on the Committee of the Regions.

The Minister of State argued that, because certain other countries had nominated individuals not directly elected from local or regional authorities, the United Kingdom was free to follow suit. He suggested that Greece and the Netherlands were good examples of countries whose nominated representatives on the Committee of the Regions were not chosen exclusively from directly elected local government representatives. The Minister had emphasised the Government's view earlier: I do not think that it is necessary that there be an obligation on any Government to ensure that all the nominees are from local government."—[Official Report, 4 February 1993; Vol. 218, c. 515.] It is necessary to look in more detail at the people actually appointed in Greece and the Netherlands. I am a little concerned that the Minister's advisers in the Foreign Office may have let him down—although I cannot imagine how that could have happened. It appears that a slightly more detailed examination of those who have been nominated from Greece and the Netherlands might present a picture rather different from that suggested by the Minister.

4.45 pm

Every Netherlands representative is from a local authority. Within the Dutch system of local government, councils and their executive bodies are chaired by Government-appointed Queen's commissioners, known as Burgemeesters. Seven of those Queen's commissioners have been chosen, with five members of Dutch local and provincial authorities. As the Queen's commissioners are effectively the mayors of councils in the Netherlands, they are entirely accountable to elected bodies. They are clearly therefore part of the local government system and would be recognised as such if their equivalents had been nominated in the United Kingdom.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones)

I do not want to sound nit-picking, but the point that I was trying to establish —the hon. Gentleman may agree with me—is that the seven Queen's commissioners are not elected.

Mr. Hoon

I accept that they are not elected, but clearly they are representatives of local authorities. That is the pont that I sought to establish.

Similarly, the Greek representatives are eight elected members of Greek local authorities and four regional administrators known as nomarchs. To be fair to the Minister of State, I must admit that those four people are Government appointees, but they are in effect responsible for regional administration in Greece, so they have responsibilities that we would identify with local government.

Mr. Garel-Jones

I accept what the hon. Gentleman says, but I hope that he will recognise that in a sense he is speaking against the amendment tabled by his hon. Friend, which clearly refers to "elected local government representatives".

Mr. Hoon

I am speaking to the Minister of State's assertion that he can justify the appointment of the Government's friends from the health authorities, the regional arts boards and the Welsh Office and Scottish Office, instead of local government representatives. The argument that I seek to advance is that the representatives appointed by the Netherlands and Greece are in fact people who represent local government as we understand it. That could not be said of representatives from the Welsh Office or the Scottish Office.

Perhaps the argument could be readily resolved. The Minister has made it clear that he sees no obligation for the Government to appoint directly elected people from local authorities to take all the relevant places for the United Kingdom. Will he make it equally clear that he does not intend to appoint people with no connection with local government? That would satisfy many Opposition Members that he was concerned to reflect the interests of local authorities in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Rhodri Morgan (Cardiff, West)

Does not the critical difference, which the Minister has failed to recognise, depend on who chose those people in Holland and Greece? Is not the critical question whether they were chosen by central Government or chosen to reflect the choice of local authorities?

Mr. Hoon

Certainly I believe that the Minister's choice of countries to justify his assertion has been somewhat selective. Decisions already taken in Belgium, Germany, Denmark, France, Spain and Luxembourg make it clear that only elected members of local or regional authorities will be included in those countries' delegations to the Committee of the Regions.

Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East)

Does my hon. Friend recall that one of the Minister's arguments against choosing directly elected representatives of local authorities was that he estimated that it would take them one or two days a week fully to discharge their responsibilities and that that would be inconsistent with their responsibilities to local authorities? It would be interesting to know how the Minister reconciles that argument with the expressed desire of the Secretary of State for Wales to represent Wales and therefore to spend two days a week away from Whitehall.

Mr. Hoon

I am grateful for the hon. Member's observation, because that is a point that was canvassed in the earlier part of this debate some three weeks ago. It certainly strikes me as inconsistent that the Government could make a point in relation to the time that it would involve when members of the Government are indicating their interest in these positions.

Much of the confusion might be resolved by looking carefully at the role and functions of the Committee of the Regions. In this debate, it is being considered along with structural funding. Some hon. Members have tended to suggest that the sole responsibility of the Committee of the Regions would be the distribution of European funds, but its real purpose is to involve new and different levels of government in the framing of European legislation and policy. So in addition to the European Parliament and national governments and parliaments, the idea of the Committee of the Regions is to permit local and regional government across the Community to have its say in the framing of new European legislation. It may appear to right hon. and hon. Members particularly appropriate, given the responsibility of local and regional authorities for the implementation and enforcement of large parts of the European Community's legislation.

Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher)

The hon. Member has just made a very important point on local and regional interests, which do not tally entirely with elected representatives. Indeed, a wide spectrum of interests could well be represented in the Committee of the Regions. In addition, the problem with just taking elected representatives is how they are selected. The Western Isles might be represented by a Strathclyde-elected member, which might not go down too well. One can see the complications. A balance must be achieved and the proposals in the amendment do not strike that balance.

Mr. Hoon

I said "authorities", not "interests". I specifically used the word "authorities" to try to prevent the question asked by the hon. Gentleman. It appears to me that we are looking at a different approach to European legislation. The idea is to allow those who are ultimately responsible for the enforcement of the legislation some say in its final shape, so that when they come to enforcement they can, in the light of their practical experience, say that a particular idea is good or bad.

Unfortunately, article 198 does not spell out the specific areas of competence of the Committee of the Regions—it is necessary to look elsewhere—but as well as matters affecting regional policy, legislation in public health, education, culture, consumer protection and trans-European networks will be referred to the Committee of the Regions for a formal opinion. It is an opinion that must be given before the Council of Ministers can consider any draft legislation.

In other areas, although there is no obligation to consult, the Council may consult the Committee of the Regions, and in addition the Committee of the Regions can, if it considers it appropriate, decide to deliver a formal opinion on its own initiative—under article 198c—in cases where it considers such action appropriate. It seems likely that the Committee of the Regions will use that power extensively as its own competence develops.

Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay)

Is it not also possible that this Committee of the Regions might turn out to be one more way in which the European Community will be able to bypass the House? Article 130 says that, when the European Community wants specifically to extend its activities outside the funds, without reference back to the main framework, it will be able to do so by the unanimous decision of various bodies, including this committee. It is a way in which the Community can end up saying that it has authority to act in a particular way while leaving the House entirely out of it.

Mr. Hoon

With great respect, I believe that the hon. Member sees dangers where none exists. The Committee of the Regions is invited to give an opinion on legislation. What it has, therefore, is a delaying power similar to the delaying power presently enjoyed by the European Parliament. It can refuse to give an opinion and thus delay the process of legislation, but it cannot force the Council of Ministers to take a positive decision. That seems appropriate. The point that I am trying to make is that the Committee of the Regions will allow the European Community a greater spectrum of opinion by permitting people—who are, I hope, elected from local or regional government—to indicate the sorts of difficulty that they have in considering new proposals for European legislation, in order that those new proposals fully take account of their needs and concerns. It seems a wholly welcome and sensible development.

Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East)

Before the hon. Member gets carried away too far with the great power of this new body, will he accept that the power of delay, which he has stressed as a great democratic development, is subject to the Commission, under article 198c, having the power to say that the maximum delay is four weeks? Will he agree that it is a load of codswallop and that what we are doing is creating something of which the Soviet Union and eastern Europe were full—useless workers' organisations with nothing to do but spend money on themselves and express opinions which can be wholly disregarded?

Mr. Hoon

I was not exaggerating the committee's powers. Indeed, I went out of my way to say how limited those powers were, but I wonder whether the local authorities in the hon. Gentleman's constituency would share his opinion. They very often have to enforce European legislation and they might welcome the opportunity of having a direct say in how the legislation develops. That is really all that the Committee of the Regions is designed to achieve and it seems to me an entirely sensible and not at all dangerous development. I am astonished at the difficulties that certain hon. Members see in relation to this proposal.

The reason why I have stressed the functions of the Committee of the Regions is that, in the Maastricht treaty, article 198a states that its members shall be completely independent in the performance of their duties". That makes it clear to me that membership of the committee would not be compatible with membership of a national Government. It should be possible for the Minister of State to be as categorical as he was in relation to local authorities in saying that the Government have no plans to nominate Ministers or, perhaps more significantly, their substitutes.

Mr. William Cash (Stafford)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, under protocol 16, there is a requirement for the new Committee of the Regions to share a common organisational structure with the Economic and Social Committee? The Economic and Social Committee has nine areas or functions with which it is concerned and which do not coincide with the functions, as we understand it, of the Committee of the Regions. Furthermore, the arguments that he has just adduced, and in line with point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) that the nation state itself and its own status are at risk, are those directed to a Committee of the Regions which would, on his own argument, be independent and so form the nucleus of a new unitary state in Europe. In other words, does he accept that he is moving in the direction of acquiescing in the unitary vision of the European Community as it is being constructed?

Mr. Hoon

With great respect, I honestly feel that the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is found in the terms of his question. By referring to the Economic and Social Committee, he is pointing out the way in which the European Community has a variety of sources of information about legislation, of which the Economic and Social Committee is one. It is possible for the Economic and Social Committee, representing business and the trade unions, for example, to put forward its point of view, and it does so within the areas of responsibility that it has to reflect those particular concerns. Similarly, the European Parliament has directly elected Members of the European Parliament to reflect the views of their constituents.

In exactly the same way, the Committee of the Regions will be able to reflect that degree of administration in each member state which we would think of as local authorities. As I see it, it is a way of decentralising decision making, not creating a unitary state. There will be a series of different institutions, each capable of giving an opinion on new European legislation, which will surely add to the quality of the legislation—something with which we should all be concerned.

Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian)

Does my hon. Friend accept that it is a bit much for Conservative Members, who have consistently supported a Government who have been suppressing the national rights of nations within the United Kingdom, to whinge about the national rights of this Parliament being eroded? Does my hon. Friend agree that the Committee of the Regions is a way of enhancing the rights of regions and small nations within member states, such as the United Kingdom?

Mr. Hoon

I agree entirely with that. That is why I found it surprising that the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) saw the committee as a means of centralising the decision-making process of the European Community rather than the reverse.

5 pm

Mr. Bernard Jenkin (Colchester, North)

May I point out to the hon. Gentleman that the requirement under article 198a that members shall be competely independent in the performance of their duties creates an ambiguity about their status within the member states? The European Court of Justice might ultimately interfere with that and lay down guidelines on how appointments should be made, for example, preventing direct Government appointees as we automatically assume.

Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough)

Why?

Mr. Jenkin

If my hon. Friend is suggesting that he can give me an assurance about the future behaviour of the European Court, he is a wiser man than anyone else.

Mr. Hoon

The answer is that the European Court of Justice will interpret the treaty. It will start with the terms of the treaty and then give effect to it, which is why I quoted from that section. In the event of a member state being tempted to appoint to the Committee of the Regions someone who was not independent, it might lead to a challenge such as the hon. Member for Colchester, North (Mr. Jenkin) mentioned, but only on the basis that the individual was not independent, say, of Government. If the Secretary of State for Wales continues in his ambition to be a member of the committee, that might be challenged on the basis of his lack of independence.

Similarly, it might interest the hon. Gentleman to know that there is talk in Greece of challenging the four appointees to whom I referred earlier, simply on the basis that they are Government-nominated administrators of the regions and therefore perhaps not as independent as they might be. Once again, that demonstrates the difficult y which the Minister of State has had with the advice and the information that he is given.

On funding, it appears that we have not concentrated sufficiently in the debate on the cohesion and the structural funds, specifically as they apply to the United Kingdom. By tending to concentrate on the Committee of the Regions, we have perhaps overlooked the important role played by the European Community in the redistribution of funds from the richer to the poorer areas of the Community.

I was disappointed that in earlier contributions some hon. Members appeared to challenge the very basis of the structural funds, arguing against any redistribution of wealth within the Community from richer to poorer nations and from richer to poorer regions. The justification for the redistribution is altruistic and ethical, but it is also economic and political. If the European Community is to develop and grow, and continue as a community, it must offer a consistent and coherent set or standards across the whole of its geographical area. It must aim as a priority to reduce regional disparities.

Moreover, if the more developed northern countries are to continue to have markets for their manufactured goods, they need to encourage and foster growth in the less-developed south of Europe.

Mr. Wilkinson

Why should it not be the priority of Her Majesty's Government to maximise the wealth of this country and this nation, through the structural funds and everything else? Is not it irresponsible to our electorate to export jobs to southern Europe and create industries to compete with our own in Portugal, Spain, Greece and so on?

Mr. Hoon

I sought to develop that argument. It is not simply a question of redistributing wealth within the United Kingdom, which I hope the hon. Member for Ruislip-North (Mr. Wilkinson) supports, as his question suggests, but equally of redistributing wealth across the Community. Redistribution is not just an ethical priority; it benefits industry in countries like the United Kingdom. Unless countries such as Portugal, Spain and Greece develop the wealth that we take for granted, their people will not be in a position to consume the manufactured goods that our industries want to produce. So there is a benefit to the United Kingdom, to its people and to its industry in allowing the European Community to develop consistently across its territory.

The point that I want to make about the structural funds arises in article 123. There will be a change in the way in which the funds will operate as a result of the Maastricht treaty. Article 123 will facilitate workers' adaptation to industrial changes and to changes in production systems, in particular through vocational training and retraining. That is a welcome development since it will allow local authorities to provide proper education and training for those hardest hit by the recession.

There will be few changes in objective 2 status, although it appears that the Commission is likely to permit greater flexibility in determining eligibility criteria. Objective 3 will be redefined to permit assistance to the long-term unemployed for the occupational integration of young people in particular. There will be a new objective 4, responding directly to the new and changed role of the European social fund regarding workers affected by industrial change throughout the Community. So there is a significant development for the European Commission in making funds available directly to assist those hardest hit by the recession.

Mr. Stuart Randall (Kingston upon Hull, West)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the effectiveness so far of funding in the regions has been largely impeded by Her Majesty's Government because there is no regional policy and because of the failure to provide matching funds?

Mr. Hoon

My hon. Friend anticipates my next point. Notwithstanding the availability of funds from the European Community, and a revision of the schemes available, the United Kingdom Government have demonstrated their marked reluctance to match the efforts of the Community.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)

I hope that I have got the hon. Gentleman right. The hon. Gentleman talks about objectives 1, 2, 3 and 4, and says that the Commission will do this, that and the other. How can that be the case? We have not even ratified the treaty yet.

Mr. Hoon

If the hon. Gentleman will listen, I will explain.

A revision of the structural funds is to commence on 1 January 1994. Since the European Commission correctly anticipates that the new rules under Maastricht will not be in place by the relevant time, it is producing a new system for 1 January 1994, to last for six years, without the treaty having been ratified. That is why the comments about the Committee of the Regions earlier in the debate were misplaced, because the committee will not have the opportunity to make specific comments about the review of the new arrangements for structural funding until the next but one review of the system. Therefore, the changes are being made under the existing rules rather than under what is likely. Obviously the Commission is taking into account the terms of the treaty as it frames the new programmes.

What is in considerable doubt is the extent to which the United Kingdom Government are willing to match the funds available from the European Community. Bruce Milian, the Regional Policy Commissioner, has indicated that Britain is at risk of losing up to £1 billion in European Community financial assistance to our most depressed regions because the Government are not prepared to authorise the relevant matching funds. Not a penny of the £1 billion available for 1992 and 1993 had been spent by the end of last year. That means that in total a package of about £2.5 billion of public expenditure has to be committed in the next 10 months. If the money is not committed in the next 10 months, there is a clear risk that it will be lost to the United Kingdom and will go to other European countries.

Mr. Denzil Davies (Llanelli)

My hon. Friend is making an important point. Obviously, we all want more public expenditure. How does he equate the need for extra public expenditure with the other parts of the treaty which say that we must reduce our public expenditure to 3 per cent. in terms of financing?

Mr. Hoon

I always understood that my right hon. Friend was sympathetic to the responsibility of the Government to use their economic ability to generate employment. I am concentrating on those parts of the treaty and, indeed, the review of the structural funds which allow Governments in the European Community, in partnership with the Community itself, to redistribute the wealth of the Community in a way which I hope my right hon. Friend would support.

Mr. Davies

Perhaps my hon. Friend misunderstood my question. I certainly was not against more British Government public expenditure to match any European expenditure; I was merely pointing out that in another part of the treaty we are supposed to cut our public expenditure to reduce the deficit to 3 per cent. of gross national product. That seems to be a basic contradiction.

Mr. Hoon

The best way of dealing with my right hon. Friend's point is probably to wait until we get to the part of the debate which deals with that specific subject. Obviously, we are considering the whole package. We are not simply concentrating on bits here and there and pointing out apparent inconsistencies: we are seeking the whole package. The whole package presupposes a commitment by the United Kingdom Government and other Governments in the European Community to play their part in relieving the regions of the chronic poverty and unemployment from which they suffer at present.

Mr. Ian Taylor

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for being generous enough to give way to me a second time.

The answer to the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) is that the Community's budget is set for the next seven years. Therefore, what the Community does in terms of internal adjustment to the budget obviously represents a series of political judgments. It does not change the national commitment to reduce overall Government expenditure to the 3 per cent. ceiling over a period.

The hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon) is interested in trying to create jobs through structural expenditure. Does he recognise the constructive role which the European investment bank can have in juxtaposition with private capital? That is precisely what was agreed at the Edinburgh summit. The role of the European investment bank, in attracting private capital rather than putting a burden on taxpayers, is one to which the hon. Gentleman should pay tribute and which he should recognise.

Mr. Hoon

I agree with that entirely. I have no disagreement with the hon. Gentleman in making that point. However, what I disagree and have difficulty with is the attitude of the United Kingdom Government towards local authorities. The United Kingdom Government have consistently blocked the ability of local authorities to match the funds available from the European Community. In the past, that has led to the European Commission freezing the sums available under the RECHAR scheme for mining areas. That row should have been resolved last year, but it appears that the Government are still not allowing local authorities to play their full part in the process.

The Association of Metropolitan Authorities wrote to the European Commission complaining about the attitude of the United Kingdom Government towards additionality. The Regional Policy Commissioner replied: I am indeed concerned by the accumulating evidence that there are difficulties in funding resource cover, which put at risk the take-up of E.R.D.F. grants and thus the implementation of the agreed programme. There is a concern in the European Commission that the United Kingdom will not receive the funding for which it is eligible.

Local authorities have experienced considerable problems in securing European funding—not problems with the European Commission but with their own Government as a result of bureaucratic delays in Whitehall. Local authorities complain about complicated systems of administration of those funds in Whitehall, about central Government interfering in the regional programmes and insisting on prior vetting of certain payments and about not being allowed to make matching cover available in order to secure funds. They have made a series of comments on the sort of difficulties from which they suffer.

Beyond anything else, local authorities are saying that the Government's system of allocating public expenditure makes it extraordinarily difficult for them to plan in advance to secure appropriate funding. The reality of that, for which the Government are responsible, is that the United Kingdom is missing out on money which it would otherwise receive from the European Community.

That is ironic, considering that this debate has featured a number of Conservative Members complaining bitterly about the amount of European funding going to the poorest nations and regions of the European Community. If Conservative Members directed some of their complaints to those on the Government Front Bench, it might be a somewhat more accurate complaint to make. If the United Kingdom is missing out on money which would otherwise be available from the European Community, it might be more sensible for Conservative Members to complain to Ministers, instead of complaining about the money going to the poorest countries in the Community.

5.15 pm
Mrs. Gorman

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the structural funds, which will handle £23 billion, will have a terrible job keeping track of that money? For example, is he aware of the latest scandal in Greece, where they have fiddled £45 million of taxpayers' money by exaggerating their harvest, another fiddle in Rome where they have fiddled £22.7 million for cooking the statistics on durum wheat, another scandal about oil in Calabria and so on? Given those vast sums of money, how will we keep track of the fact that people—never mind our regions—will be fiddling like mad?

Mr. Hoon

I might be somewhat more persuaded by the hon. Lady's intervention and her examples if she had paid regard to what I said about the difficulties of local authorities in the United Kingdom securing European funding. That is the point that I am making. It is no good complaining about what is going on elsewhere in Greece or Portugal when the Government—whom from time to time the hon. Lady supports—are not making their best contribution in terms of getting funding from the European Community.

Mr. Macdonald

Might not the difficulties be somewhat eased after the ratification of the treaty? I do not know whether my hon. Friend has noticed that article 130b permits each national Government to pursue policies of economic and social cohesion through their national policies as well as in their contributions to the Community. After the treaty is ratified, there will be a constraint on the British Government to pursue regional policies and ones which improve the prospects of local authorities and make it possible for local authorities to challenge them in the European Court if they fail to live up to the treaty's obligations.

Mr. Hoon

That is right, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his assistance in that respect. Essentially, I am demonstrating that we could have a much simpler system if the United Kingdom Government allowed local authorities to carry through the decisions which they have already made with the European Commission in terms of funding specific projects. Local authorities have already agreed with Brussels the projects that I am describing where the money has not been spent. Unfortunately, because of the complexities of the system in Whitehall, authorisation has not always been received, so many local authorities are simply waiting for authorisation from Whitehall to go ahead with schemes that they have already agreed with Brussels.

Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East)

I am listening with great care to the hon. Gentleman's interesting speech, which undoubtedly reflects his experience in the European Parliament. Would not he be correct in answering my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) by saying that the reports of the Court of Auditors say repeatedly and with great emphasis that fraud occurs in all member states?

Mr. Hoon

I am grateful for that observation.

Mr. Wilkinson

The hon. Gentleman takes Whitehall to task for not authorising, if I have his figures right, some £2.5 billion of British public expenditure in order to have the benefit of £1 billion from Brussels. Is it not the case that, of that £1 billion from Brussels, only about £200 or £300 million constitutes British money which went to Brussels in the first place? Therefore, it would be bad arithmetic and logic that, to get back £200 or £300 million of our own money, we would have to expend £2.5 billion which it is not necessary to expend at a time of economic stringency.

Mr. Hoon

The hon. Gentleman and I have a different perspective on whose money belongs to whom. The money which the European Community distributes is money which it is responsible for collecting directly. It is part of the system of the European Community. Clearly, it is possible to break that down and say which countries give which amount of money, but that is simply the difficulty that the hon. Gentleman has in coming to terms with the obligations that we have had as a member of the European Community since the beginning of 1973. The world has moved on.

Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Hoon

I give way for one last time. I am trying to finish.

Mr. Shepherd

Will the hon. Gentleman return to the point made by the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies)? The treaty contends that we should depress public expenditure to meet certain criteria, while he advocates an increase in public expenditure. How does he reconcile those two arguments?

Mr. Hoon

I thought that I had said how I proposed to deal with that question. It is much more sensible to do it on that basis.

I began this speech some three weeks ago by complaining about the attitude of the United Kingdom Government to local authorities and their elected members in the context of appointments to the Committee of the Regions. The Minister of State poured scorn on those criticisms. I have concluded my speech tonight by demonstrating the practical attitude of the Government to local authorities, which have sought strenuously to secure funds from the European Community but have been consistently blocked in those efforts by our Government. That is a matter of great regret, but it is a practical demonstration of the Government's attitude to local authorities.

Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray)

This is an interesting opportunity to speak on the Committee of the Regions as we consider the Maastricht treaty. I am speaking to amendments which have been tabled in my name and those of my hon. Friends in Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats. We make strong arguments in support of the Committee of the Regions and seek to expound our view on how the committee should develop.

It is important, first, that I put on record my principled stance that for a Scottish Nationalist or Welsh Nationalist or, indeed, Liberal Democrat, the Committee of the Regions will never be a substitute for the right of our nations to be represented independently within the European Community, with full access to the Council of Ministers and the Commission, where so many of the key decisions are taken.

As a member of the Scottish National party, I believe that we should have full independent representation within the Community. Having said that, we must talk clearly about a Committee of the Regions which will not regard Scotland or Wales as regions but deal with the regions of Wales and Scotland. That is what we seek in examining how the membership of the committee should be founded.

Some people say that the proposed Committee of the Regions should have merely a consultative role, and therefore dismiss some aspects of it. I have always believed that consultation is important in the political process. Others have said that the Committee of the Regions will take on a lobbying role. The hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon) said that the structural funds had already been altered. Therefore, the lobbying aspect of structural funds and various objectives have perhaps already been decided.

However, I have no doubt that ultimately the Committee of the Regions will play a substantial role in the allocation of the structural funds. I agree with the Minister of State that the committee will ultimately accrue to itself additional powers. I share his optimism that the committee has a great deal of potential. If Europe is not over-centralised or over-bureaucratic but has real meaning for people in every corner of the European Community —in the most far-flung island in the north of Scotland or a Greek island in the Aegean sea—people will have a sense of involvement. The Committee of the Regions has the potential to be meaningful to all of us.

The institutions of Europe will change in the next 10 years. I find it depressing to listen to some of the loyal imperialists and backwoodsmen and women on the Conservative Benches who seem afraid of change. Europe offers us a facility for change which is challenging and exciting. We should not take it too easily but we should be prepared to rise to the opportunity and ensure that our people play their full role.

We shall definitely see Europe expand in the next few years. In expanding Europe, we must ensure that the voices of all people are heard. It is possible that Norway, Austria and other countries will join our Community. As the insitutions evolve and develop, we must all be there to argue that the Council of Ministers, the Commission, the Parliament and the Committee of the Regions accrue to themselves additional powers but at the same time decentralise those powers.

When we consider the Committee of the Regions as it is contained in the treaty, one argument worries hon. Members on these Benches and, I know, the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mrs. Michie). We are worried about the distribution of the 24 seats which have been allocated to the United Kingdom. If we considered Scotland as a nation equal to Denmark, we could argue that it should have nine seats. If we considered Wales as equivalent to the Republic of Ireland, it, too, should have nine seats on the Committee of the Regions. If we considered Northern Ireland as the equivalent of Luxembourg, it should have six seats. That neatly adds up to 24 seats. The Minister might like to start an "independence for England" movement so that it can also have adequate representatives for the regions of England.

I make a serious point. The south-west and north-west of England are different and have regional variations; people who live there also have the right to be represented. But the 24 seats will have to be allocated for the length and breadth of the United Kingdom. There will be severe difficulty in allocating the seats. I make no secret of the fact that I believe that Scotland should have a minimum of eight seats. That would reflect the Scottish seats in the European Parliament and would make it possible to take account of the geographical variations.

Earlier today, in an exchange on the Floor of the House, I referred to the importance of objective 1 for the highlands and islands of Scotland, and asked where the boundaries will be drawn. Will Highlands and Islands Enterprise, Highland regional council or other boundaries be used? The highlands and islands have different economic and social needs from, for example, the central belt of Scotland, where what is left of our industry certainly creates specific needs. The borders of Scotland have different needs again. They are all different regions. The north-east of Scotland has a particular interest in the offshore oil and gas industry. In deciding how to allocate the seats, it will be important to take account of the geographic and economic needs of different regions.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland should not be sacrificed to the needs of Greater London. Greater London seems to have its full share of people who are prepared to argue their case elsewhere. I remind the Minister that the Secretary of State for Scotland said on 23 November 1992 that he would bid extremely high for seats for Scotland on the Committee of the Regions. I hope that that will ultimately be reflected in the allocation.

Another issue is the mechanism for appointing, nominating or electing the representatives on the Committee of the Regions. We have made it clear in our amendments that we would prefer direct elections. We believe that that is the fairest way. Direct elections would give a credibility and authority to our representatives on the Committee. I suspect that the Government will not accept the idea of direct elections. Perhaps that reflects the view of the Member of the European Parliament for Lothians, David Martin. He said that direct elections to the Committee of the Regions could give people ideas beyond their responsibilities, but that is not a proper attitude. I would prefer representatives from throughout the United Kingdom to be directly elected and accountable for their areas.

One of the difficulties is that the Government have not been able to come up with a principled outline of where they stand on the mechanism. The research paper from the House of Commons Library makes it clear that other countries have taken a principled outline, although they may not yet have settled the details of how they will make appointments.

In considering the mechanism for appointment and nomination of representatives to the Committee of the Regions, we should take account of geography, and there must be a geographical balance. Scottish representatives from the islands will identify with people from other islands elsewhere in the Community. Representatives from the central belt of Scotland will identify with other Community countries that have industrial interests. They will not solely argue the corner for Scotland, but will argue the case in specific spheres of policy which clearly relate to the geography of our communities.

5.30 pm

Secondly, there must be an element of proportionality. Four parties operate in the political spheres of Wales and Scotland, and members of those parties all stand for election to this Parliament, the European Parliament and to district and regional authorities. Much to my regret, we do not have proportional representation within the United Kingdom—or to be technically correct, within Great Britain—which would be extremely desirable.

When the Government produce any mechanism for deciding representation on the Committee of the Regions, they must take account of the proportion of votes cast for each political party at an election. In one of our amendments, we have attempted to link that proportionality to the European election which is due to take place next year. If we are not going to have direct elections to the Committee of the Regions, the votes cast at that election will be the most recent test of public opinion. I suggest that there must be an element of proportionality to reflect that. We must take a separate account of votes cast in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland—where they already have proportional representation for European elections—and in England.

Scottish nationalists are not prepared to accept the idea that there should be any quango-type appointments by the Secretary of State, whereby he can select the people whom he thinks would represent his interests as opposed to those of the people of Scotland.

On the amendment which stands in the name of the Official Opposition, I can understand why they look to local government as an appropriate body to represent us on the Committee of the Regions. My understanding, however, is that anyone who serves on that committee will have to commit themselves to a minimum of 140 days per year, and perhaps more. A substantial number of days is involved—even under the alternative suggestions—and I therefore believe that the people chosen to be on the committee—

Mr. Wilkinson

Quangos.

Mrs. Ewing

If Conservative backwoodsmen would be quiet, they might hear some information. It is difficult to speak against the background of rowdyism from the anti-Europeans across the Floor.

The importance that we attach to the Committee of the Regions will be demonstrated by the first people chosen to serve on it. They must not be part-timers, or people who are expected to represent their constituents in the local ward or local government while also having to take themselves off to Brussels and Strasbourg. They must be given full authority by being genuine representatives on the committee.

I think that the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) will agree that no one fought the last district or general elections in Scotland with any commitment in their manifestos that they would seek nomination to the Committee of the Regions if they were elected. European issues did not come into the last local government elections.

While there is an important role for local authorities on the committee, I do not necessarily think it correct that we should consider local authority representatives alone.

Mr. George Robertson

The hon. Lady has an argument, although she used so-called information from the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, which as we now know is not always reliable, when she mentioned the work load that might be involved. Will she watch what she says as she develops her case? The amendment tabled in her name and that of her hon. Friends from the Scottish National party, which has been selected in the provisional selection for today, seeks to amend the Opposition amendment, but will leave in place the principle that members will be elected local government representatives. If she is arguing against that, she may have to reformulate the amendment that she and her colleagues have tabled and intend to press to a Division.

Mrs. Ewing

I would be interested to know whether the hon. Member for Hamilton accepts our amendment. We have tried to build an element of proportionality into it, recognising that we have four political parties in Scotland and that the political views of people in Scotland should be taken into account. If George Bolton can say that 630,000 people voting for the Scottish National party at the last election cannot be ignored, I do not think the hon. Member for Hamilton can challenge them too seriously on that matter.

I understand the Government's difficulties in trying to reach a democratic mechanism for the nomination, appointment or election of people to the Committee of the Regions. Through our amendment, we seek to link representation to proportionality and to public opinion in Scotland and the future of the committee, tying it in with the changes in institutions that will occur. I hope that, in his response, the Minister of State will fully recognise that those are key principles which cannot be ignored.

I have strong reservations about the Opposition amendment, because it links solely to local government. The Committee of the Regions goes well beyond that, and I hope that the Government will take that into account.

Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones (Ynys Mon)

If a week is a long time in politics, the last three weeks appear to have been an absolute eternity. I can tell the Minister of State that we have used the time wisely because we have studied carefully his remarks on 4 February when formulating our response on the Committee of the Regions, cohesion funds and the way in which structural funds should operate, especially from our prospective in Wales.

I wish to speak to the amendment standing in my name and that of my hon. Friends in Plaid Cymru. We have also tabled joint amendments with the Scottish National party.

As the Committee appreciates, the Committee of the Regions will be established by article 198a of the Maastricht treaty, where it is described as an "advisory" body to be set up in recognition of the fact that the regions of Europe have an important role to play in the way in which the European Community evolves.

It is important to stress that, in recent years, the role of the regions has been enhanced greatly outwith the formal Community institutions. The German lander, for example, already have a strong, but informal presence in Brussels. They have established offices there and are lobbying hard for Community funds for their regions, but there is no formal way in which they can participate in decision making. They are also lobbying hard for the Community institutions to be changed to reflect the growing importance of regional thinking in Europe.

Mr. Garel-Jones

I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman and I should like to ask a question for information, not for partisan purposes. Does he agree that Wales—it may also be true of Scotland—already co-operates with other European regions, in particular Catalonia and a region in France? That co-operation is proving productive. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that shows that it is difficult for any of us to anticipate what will come of the Committee of the Regions? It may turn out to be a body of some influence.

Mr. Jones

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that information, because it demonstrates that there is a growing recognition that Wales, as a nation, as well as other European regions and nations, has a joint role to play in evolving the Community. I should like to remind the Minister, however, that the regions that currently have a relationship with Wales all have an elected form of government at regional level. The current democratic deficit prevalent in Wales needs to be addressed, even though we have to approach the question of the Committee of the Regions from a different perspective.

The word "regionalism", in common with "federalism", is much misunderstood and much maligned in Europe. I have no problem with the word "regionalism", because, in relation to Wales, it means the historic nations and regions of Europe. It is important to put on record the fact that use of the word "regionalism" does not in any way compromise the right of Wales to be regarded as a nation in its own right. When considering the Committee of the Regions, we must also recognise that the only way in which the democratic deficit in Wales can be overcome is by establishing a Welsh parliament.

We need to look at the words of the Maastricht treaty, which say that it is designed to create an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"; but it also states that it is designed to bring decision making in certain areas and competences to below the level of the nation state. It is designed to bring decision making closer to the people but that presupposes that a mechanism exists to make that happen. Such a mechanism is not available to the people of Wales.

In time, the two-way process of looking at government from a European level and a local level will erode the centralising force that is prevalent in the British system of government, where competences that were dealt with by local government until recently, for example, health, education and housing, have been transferred to the centre. We must get away from the idea that sovereignty is rigid. It is something to be shared where different decisions are taken at different levels, for different purposes at different times. That philosophy distinguishes my colleagues from some of the Conservative Benches.

Sir Teddy Taylor

In case Wales gets carried away by the prospect that the hon. Gentleman is offering, does he at least accept that the Committee of the Regions will have no power to do anything but talk, and that it will have no budget? Is there not a danger that the hon. Gentleman might get carried away with the potential of that committee when it is simply a kind of talking shop, exactly the same as that which existed in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Jones

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, because the Committee of the Regions is an advisory body and, if it remains so, it will be nothing but a talking shop. I have sought to stress, however, that there is a growing recognition among those who are members of that committee that there is a valuable and growing role for the historic nations and regions of Europe in the decision-making process of the Community. It is the potential of that committee in which I am interested. It may be an advisory body now, but it has enormous potential.

5.45 pm

Let us remember that, five years ago, none of the European historic nations and regions had any influence or any role. Today, the German lander, the Catalans, the Basques and many other nations have offices in Brussels, and they are lobbying hard for their people. The establishment of the Committee of the Regions recognises their growing role. We want Wales to play its part in that process.

My party and I may be optimistic, but we have a view about how Europe should develop. We want, eventually, a second chamber in Europe to represent the regions and historic nations—a bicameral system—which will introduce the checks and balances that are necessary in any democratic system. Many believe—including many Conservative Members—that the Maastricht treaty is a centralising document. They believe that it will transfer power to an unelected and unaccountable Commission.

Mr. Denzil Davies

It will severely limit our powers.

Mr. Jones

I accept that the right hon. Gentleman and others believe that it will severely limit the ability of member states to decide their economic policy. I know that they fear the creation of an independent European central bank. However, the opponents of the treaty had to recognise on 4 February that the powers in that treaty are subject to a number of qualifications. The Community is well aware of the danger of it concentrating wealth and power in the core cities of Paris, Brussels, Frankfurt and the like.

It is important to recognise that the treaty is subject to checks and balances. I accept that a certain amount of power will be transferred to the centre, but it is also transferred back to the regions and that makes us confident that the Maastricht treaty is, on balance, absolutely correct.

Mr. Denzil Davies

I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman. He and I would agree that we need devolution of power within the United Kingdom. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can now explain why he is so keen to centralise that power even further away when the argument has always been that we should go for decentralisation of power and devolution.

Mr. Jones

The right hon. Gentleman should note that the difference is that his concept of sovereignty belongs to the 19th century. It is totally outdated and has been shown to be ineffective. Within the European Community, we now have democratic systems that recognise that decisions may be taken at different levels for different purposes.

Sovereignty is not embodied in one place for ever—if it shifts in one way, it can shift in another. I accept that, in certain circumstances, power has been transferred to the centre, but there must also he a corresponding transfer of power back to the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman should note that the Maastricht treaty is a good case for transferring that power back to those people, and that is why he should support it.

The treaty refers to a Committee consisting of representatives of regional and local bodies". it is absolutely clear that the choice of those words was deliberate. The original concept of membership should be that nominations or the committee's composition should not be in the hands of central Government but in the hands of regional and local bodies. The problem in the United Kingdom is that there are no regional bodies from which to choose members. The danger is that, although some may be elected local authority representatives—the Minister said that was a possibility—the remainder could be nominated and unelected.

I listened carefully to the Minister of State in the opening exchanges in this debate, and he kept his options open. That was good of him.

Mr. Donald Anderson

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government will face a personnel problem in Wales, because the pool of Conservatives from which they can draw has been so reduced by the number of quango appointments that there will be no one left to go to Brussels?