§ Madam SpeakerIt will help the House to know that I have not selected the amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley).
§ Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield)I beg to move,
That this House regrets that the Chairman of Ways and Means, having selected Amendment 27 to the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, which has support from honourable Members on both sides of the House, having called a Right honourable Member to speak on that amendment, and having allowed a debate upon it to take place, should then have decided, contrary to normal practice, not to permit a division to take place upon that amendment, thus denying the House an opportunity to reach a decision on an issue relating to the applicability of the Protocol on Social Policy contained in the Maastricht Treaty, a protocol which Her Majesty's Government held to be so important that it sought and obtained a special opt-out from it for the United Kingdom; and, in the light of these considerations, and the long term significance of this ruling for parliamentary debates on all future legislation, calls upon the Chairman of Ways and Means to reconsider his ruling forthwith, and to permit the Committee to reach a decision on that amendment.First, I wish to make it clear that the motion is supported by 80 hon. Members who represent opinion in all parts of the House. It represents the only way in which the House can register its opinion of a decision of the Chairman of Ways and Means. It is not possible to appeal to Madam Speaker in respect of decisions taken by the Chairman.Those of us who have signed the motion believe that it is a profoundly mistaken ruling and that the statement made by the Chairman has the most serious implications for the rights of hon. Members and their constituents in the future. It relates solely and simply to that one ruling, and invites the House to ask the Chairman of Ways and Means to reconsider it. It is nothing more than that. It is not a motion of censure on the Chairman of Ways and Means, who is widely respected by hon. Members on both sides of the House, especially for the way in which he has chaired the debates on the Bill.
I shall never forget that, at the outset of the Committee stage, the Chairman invited me and other interested Members to go to his room so that he could hear our points of view and explain his approach. I have never in my life known that to happen in connection with any Bill going into Committee. The motion is therefore nothing whatever to do with his impartiality; it is a question of his judgment in this one ruling.
§ Sir David Steel (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale)Would the right hon. Gentleman be kind enough to correct his opening statement that the motion that he has moved has support in all parts of the House? That is not true.
§ Mr. BennIt depends whether one is speaking geographically or in terms of political parties. Geographically, it has support from all sides.
This is a motion for the House as a whole to consider. It is not, and should not be seen as, a matter of party controversy, and I hope that the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel) has not applied a whip to members of his party to prevent them from supporting the motion.
326 This motion is exactly the same as an appeal to an appeal court in order to consider a judgment from a lower court. It follows closely a similar motion moved by Sir Elwyn Jones in 1972, when the House was debating the European Communities Bill. The issue then related to rulings by the then Chairman about his selection of amendments to the Bill. In moving the motion, Sir Elwyn—later the Lord Chancellor—said this—
§ Mr. Michael Spicer (Worcestershire, South)Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
§ Mr. SpicerI am most grateful. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that many of my right hon. and hon. Friends, who share many of the anxieties that he has in this matter, will not be voting with him on the motion—not only out of respect for the Chair but also because we believe that the fault for this issue very largely lies with hon. Members on the Opposition Front Bench? They have been consistently tabling new clauses which are seen to be substitutes for amendment No. 27. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not push the motion to a vote at the end of the day.
§ Mr. BennThe hon. Gentleman has not heard the case yet. If he has already reached a view on the basis of a few introductory words, it gives an indication, as civil servants would say, of the way his mind is moving. He should hear the argument before reaching a final view.
When Sir Elwyn Jones moved his motion of censure against Sir Robert Grant-Ferris—who was as popular as the present Chairman of Ways and Means—this is what he said:
The Chairman's interpretation of the rules of order therefore is quite crucial to the whole role and function of Parliament and this House in its consideration of this historic and unprecedented Bill.That was the European Communities Bill."The Chairman himself rightly described it yesterday as one of the most fundamental and important Bills which have ever been before the House of Commons. If the Ruling stands unamended and unqualified by subsequent action, it will as a matter of order muzzle proper consideration and decision by this House on a Bill which, if it becomes law, will restrict the power of Parliament to debate and resolve: first, questions vital to the finances and economy of our country; secondly, important changes in our law; thirdly, the control by the House over public expenditure; fourthly, restrictions which will be placed on the rights and powers of our courts of law —matters which affect every subject in the land.If as a matter of order Parliament can be so circumscribed that important Amendments which the Opposition have tabled cannot be made debatable, the consequence will be to reduce the role of this House in the consideration of the issues raised by this momentous Bill to discussion merely of the comparatively trivial and superficial."—[Official Report, 1 March 1972; Vol. 832, c. 434–35.]
§ Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater)Is there not an essential difference between this Bill and the right hon. Gentleman's analogy? He knows that no amendments were made to the European Communities Bill, and that there was no Report stage. The right hon. Gentleman says that there should be an opportunity for appeal to another court. One reason why a number of us find the motion deeply offensive is that the right hon. Gentleman knows that he has another opportunity to make his arguments without seeking to impugn the impartiality and judgment of the Chairman of Ways and Means.
§ Mr. BennOn the latter point, I have made it absolutely clear that I am not impugning the impartiality of the Chairman of Ways and Means. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am not. I gave the Chairman a copy of the speech that I am making so that he could read it in advance of the debate. I am making the point that the only way in which the House can query the judgment of a Chairman or Of the Speaker is to table a motion. It is absurd to say that that is impugning the impartiality of the Chair. As the right hon. Gentleman will learn, if he allows me to finish my speech, the issue is very similar to the one in 1972.
§ Sir Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber)The right hon. Gentleman listed the apocalyptic consequences which Sir Elwyn saw if the Chairman's ruling was upheld. The Chairman's ruling was upheld. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that those consequences followed?
§ Mr. BennIf the hon. Gentleman, who is a passionate supporter of the European Community, does not realise that everything that was said by Elwyn Jones was correct in terms of the superior power of Community law over European law, which is what that Bill was all about, I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman has followed the debates on issues to which he is so committed. Perhaps that is why he was able to support earlier legislation on this matter.
This debate is not about the merits of amendment No. 27 but about the right of the House to reach a decision upon it. It is not about the merits of the social chapter, or the protocol on social policy, but about the right of the House to give its judgment upon it. It is not about the merits of the Bill itself, or of the Maastricht treaty, but about whether the House should be able to amend it in one important respect.
I do not intend to dwell in great detail on the issue, apart from saying that the social chapter is a very important part of the agreement that was reached by the other 11 member states. It is an issue to which the Government, as my motion makes clear, are opposed. They wish to be at the heart of everything in Europe, except social policy.
According to article 1 of the social protocol agreement of the treaty on European union,
The Community and the Member States shall have as their objectives the promotion of employment, improved living and working conditions, proper social protection, dialogue between management and labour, the development of human resources with a view to lasting high unemployment and the combatting of exclusion. To this end the Community and the Member States shall implement measures which take account of diverse forms of national practices, in particular in the field of contractual relations, and the need to maintain the competitiveness of the Community economies.The social chapter—I list the headings only—deals with the improvement of the working environment to protect workers' health and safety; working conditions; the information and consultation of workers; equality between men and women with regard to labour market opportunities so as to ensure that each member state shall maintain the principle of equal pay for male and female workers; social security and social protection of workers; protection of workers where their employment contract is terminated; representation and collective defence of the interests of workers and employers; conditions of employment, and so on.328 It is a very important protocol. The Government are determined to prevent it from applying to this country. I do not comment upon its merits, but it is an issue so important to the Government that they persuaded the other 11 member states to let them off having to apply it. That is the Government's position. The Opposition's position, by contrast, is that my right hon. Friends attach great importance to the social chapter. I do not even comment at this point on whether they are right or wrong, but there can be no dispute that that is what the party of which I am a member wants.
When the Chairman of Ways and Means called a group of amendments which was headed by amendment No. 7 and which contained amendment No. 27, he knew perfectly well that that was the occasion on which these great issues would be debated. On 20 January, my right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) said:
Amendment No. 7 is a probing amendment which we intend ultimately to withdraw … I shall address my remarks to amendment No. 27 on which, in due course, we shall press the Committee to a vote.He then read out amendment No. 27, which would, of course, change the relationship.We now come to the nub of the matter, because we are talking about an important parliamentary difference of opinion which is not able to be resolved by voting on amendment No. 27. My right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland also said:
The Bill excludes Britain from provisions which our 11 partners have agreed to facilitate greater protection for employed people in their working conditions, better rights of consultation and information, equality of treatment and opportunity for men and women, and the integration into the labour force of long-term unemployed people, including disabled workers.The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the right hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Garel-Jones), then made an important statement. He said:The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, under the terms of the amendment, United Kingdom law would not conform to the treaty's provisions, so it would be impossible for the United Kingdom to ratify that treaty".My right hon. Friend responded at once, as I would have expected. He said:I … willingly explain … As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, I would not move the amendment on behalf of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) and my other hon. Friends if we did not fully understand its implications. Those implications would be to remove the protocol on social policy, which refers to the exclusion of the social chapter from the treaty. That would require Her Majesty's Government to negotiate with the other 11 Community members … Of course, I recognise that that would present Her Majesty's Government with a dilemma, but we have taken the precaution to check that the other 11 member states would be happy for that outcome to obtain." —[Official Report, 20 January 1993; Vol. 217, c. 402–03.]One cannot imagine a more fundamental question.We now come to the Chairman's latest ruling. On Thursday last week, he said:
to be selectable for a separate Division the purport of an amendment needs to have been substantially covered during the course of the debate on the group in which it has been included."—[Official Report, 15 April 1993; Vol. 222, c. 961.]Amendment No. 27 was the main debate, and no one can honestly believe that amendment No. 27 passed almost unnoticed in a clutch of amendments about the social chapter.329 My right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland, ever quick to point to the importance of what had been announced by the Chairman, replied using stronger language than I would use. He said:
Many people far beyond the confines of the Chamber will feel that the House of Commons has been cheated of a legitimate reason to have a vote. I do not use that word lightly, but because I am singularly unconvinced—I believe that the majority of the House is unconvinced—about the reasons for your decision."—[Official Report, 15 April 1993; Vol. 222, c. 963.]This is a major issue, a major ruling which prevents a vote, and a clear statement by my right hon. Friend that it is his view and that of others that the House has been cheated.On Monday, again offering to be helpful—he has genuinely aimed to be helpful throughout—the Chairman made a further statement. I shall not say "reasons" because Chairmen do not give reasons. He said—this is the nub of the motion:
the Chair must have regard to a number of factors, including the Committee's debates, the clarity of effect of an amendment, and its impact on the Bill which, if brought into effect, must be both workable and understandable."— [Official Report, 19 April 1993; Vol. 223, c. 39.]If we do not challenge that ruling, the terms "workable" and "understandable"—as I hope to show—will remain in the rules of the House for all time and all Bills. How can I tell the electorate in Chesterfield and people who want the Bill but with the social chapter that they cannot vote on it because the Chairman of Ways and Means says that an amendment that would bring Britain into line with every other country is not workable or understandable? It is the most workable and most understandable amendment that one could find; it is the one that 11 other countries in the Community have accepted. That is the difficulty.
§ Mr. Ray Whitney (Wycombe)Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
§ Mr. WhitneyI am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. He is making great play of the importance of adhesion to the social chapter. Why does the fact that the House will have a chance to vote on the social chapter on new clause 74 not satisfy his keen interest in the subject?
§ Mr. BennI am trying to avoid dwelling on the merits of the argument in order to concentrate on the parliamentary aspects of the matter. What should happen when the leader of a major Opposition party puts his name at the head of an amendment which is accepted by the Chair, and the party spokesman begins by saying that he will concentrate solely on that amendment? There are masses of ways of dealing with every issue, but that was the one chosen by the Opposition party.
Before I deal with the long-term implications, I shall consider briefly the arguments against voting. One, which has been repeated by the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King), is that the motion would somehow require the Chairman to resign, because it would impugn his impartiality. The argument has nothing to do with that. It is about three words that the Chairman used—"workable and understandable".
330 It is also said that a vote would not work because part of the Bill has already been passed. That is the point raised by my right hon. Friend the deputy leader of the Labour party last night. But if the motion is read carefully, it will be seen that it asks "the Chairman … to reconsider … forthwith".
It would be perfectly easy to find a procedural motion to put the matter back in its proper place in the Bill. I am afraid that, if the House votes against our motion, that will make it harder for Madam Speaker to select the same issue on Report. The argument would be put to her that the House had had a chance to reconsider and had rejected it.
Now I come to the wider questions which ought to concern people, and which go well beyond their interest in the Maastricht Bill. The real issue is that, if we leave the ruling in the record, the Chairman will have to consider every amendment to every Bill to decide whether it was "workable and understandable".
With the best will in the world, how does a Chairman know what is workable and understandable, unless he asks the Minister? He will say, "I have an amendment here, Secretary of State. Is it workable?" The Secretary of State will say, "I shall ask my civil servants," or he may say, "I shall ask the Law Officers—and I shall tell you whichever of the two judgments they give me suits me best." The Chairman of Ways and Means cannot decide whether an amendment is workable and understandable, so the ruling puts him at the mercy of the Executive—but the Chairman is our man, not the servant of the Government. That is the issue.
I might add that, if the Speaker of the House of Commons would not accept Bills that were not workable and understandable, a lot of legislation would not have gone through the House at all, including the poll tax legislation and some legislation on pay and other matters introduced by my right hon. Friends—but I shall not go into that now.
The Clerks are like elephants; they never forget. They have already noted the Chairman's ruling. I dug out my "Erskine May"—I have had a copy ever since I was first elected—and page 187 of the current edition says:
The Chairman of Ways and Means or a Deputy Chairman has final authority over all points of order arising when he is in the chair and there is no appeal from his ruling to the Speaker.The Clerk of the House will add a bit to that, in the next edition, which will say, "The Chairman will not allow a vote on any amendment that is not 'workable and understandable'." I do not want to see that written into the rules of the House, because it will affect the Liberal party. After all, most of the Liberals' proposals are neither understandable nor workable, so I confidently expect to have them with me in the Lobby.It is the minority Members who are affected. After all, it is an official Opposition amendment that has been rejected. What about little parties, tiny parties and minuscule parties? What about Back Benchers? What chance have they of persuading the Chairman, under the influence of the Secretary of State and the Attorney-General, that their little amendment is workable and understandable?
§ Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire)Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
§ Mr. BennYes, of course I shall, especially in the light of the hon. Gentleman's intervention yesterday.
§ Mr. KirkwoodIf the right hon. Gentleman is successful in browbeating the Chairman of Ways and Means into doing what he thinks is not right, does he believe that using majority power in the House to affect the decision of the Chair is in the interest of minority parties?
§ Mr. BennIf I ever had the power to browbeat the Chairman or anyone else, I might have been tempted to do that. I am inviting the House to do what it does every day —to reach a judgment on whether it agrees with a proposal that is before it. I do not know what ideas the hon. Member for Roxburgh and Berwickshire (Mr. Kirkwood) has about how Parliament should be resolved. However, if he does not want majorities to decide, the place should be packed up and given over—[Interruption.] Elections determine the majority and minority parties.
§ Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan)This is a serious point, and I know that the right hon. Gentleman will treat it as such. If it is the right hon. Gentleman's case that majorities should always decide what amendments are selected, in normal circumstances that means that the Government will decide every amendment that comes before the House.
§ Mr. BennThe hon. Gentleman is assuming that the Chairman is not independent. The purpose in my proposal is to keep him independent. The House cannot close a debate without a vote, but it is prepared to give the Chairman the right to deny a vote without support. That is the point and the issue.
I know that the atmosphere is highly charged, that the media claim that we are Euro-sceptics and that my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) has suddenly become a Euro-sceptic because he believes that this is an important parliamentary point. It is an important parliamentary point. In my opinion, it will damage the understanding of our proceedings among the people we represent. With the best will in the world—I have touched on it already—I cannot explain to people outside who want the social chapter to apply in Britain why one Member of the House, the Chairman, can say that it was not workable or understandable.
I am an old parliamentarian. I once moved a motion of this character because the Speaker refused me an emergency debate when military action was contemplated in Oman. I know that, for many hon. Members, procedure is dull and irrelevant. However, I believe that democracy is about procedure. It is not about what we decide, but about how we decide it. That is what the whole democratic argument is about.
Perhaps I am a sentimentalist, but I deeply believe that we have one responsibility above all others, and that is to pass on to those who come after us a decent democratic machinery which can be used by them as we have used it. That democratic machinery allows us to table amendments and have them considered, voted upon and so on.
I finish as I did 35 years ago, when I moved a similar motion against Mr. Speaker Morrison. When all the speeches are forgotten, when the election manifestos are in the British Library, when the Queen's Speeches have disappeared and the Bills have been repealed, "Erskine May" is what this place is about, because it gives us the machinery to decide what we were elected to do. If that is denied by an error of judgment—no more than that—by a Chairman, I think that we shall pay a heavy price for it in future.
§ 4.7 pm
§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton)I hope it will be thought right, Madam Speaker, that I should rise at once to follow the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) and to set out some of the considerations which I believe the House should have in mind in judging what he has said and the motion he has brought before the House.
I do not think that I need to make a long speech, because it seems to me that the central issue is simple and clear: it is the issue of the authority of the Chair, and therefore its capacity to discharge effectively, on behalf of the House as a whole—not least the minority parties—the difficult task which the House as a whole has laid on it.
I note, of course, that the right hon. Gentleman has sought to resist that suggestion, but I must say frankly that I do not think he has done so successfully. Nor do I think he can, because in signalling the appearance of this motion, he could not have made his intention clearer, when he asked the Chairman:
If a motion of this kind is tabled, may I take it that you would not feel able to take the Chair of the Committee until the matter was resolved?"—[Official Report, 19 April 1993; Vol. 223, c. 41.]Against that background, no amount of disclaimer, in whatever measured language, can alter the basic fact that the effect, and the intended effect, of this motion is to render it impossible for the Chairman to perform the duties that the House has laid on him unless and until it is defeated or withdrawn. As I said, that is the central issue which the House must resolve—whether it is to sustain the authority of the Chair to do its job.
§ Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South)I am surprised by the line that the right hon. Gentleman is taking. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) used words which are his. Is the Leader of the House saying that, on that Monday when we pursued points of order and had a debate, there was no difference whatever in the accession of the Chair to what we were putting to him or his attitude to us? I put it to the right hon. Gentleman—he was not here, as many hon. Members were not here—that that was no different, because we respect the authority of the Chair in general. It is a matter of judgment on a single issue.
§ Mr. NewtonI do not accept that for a moment. Although I was not present throughout, I have carefully studied the lengthy points of order that were raised not only on Monday but on other occasions. If I may say so, the Chairman has listened and responded to those points of order with great care and courtesy.
There is the world of difference between legitimately putting points of order to the Chairman, albeit over a long period, and tabling a motion of this sort, which is, as the right hon. Member for Chesterfield made absolutely clear in his remarks on Monday, intended to make it impossible for the Chairman to function as the Chairman unless it has been disposed of.
Before I return to that matter, I should say something about the motion. I realise that, in many ways, it is not the central issue. Apart from anything else, it seems to reflect some misapprehension about the procedures of the House with respect to the selection of amendments. I think that this will be common ground.
Standing Order No. 31 is clear: in the Committee of the whole House, the Chairman is given the power—the right 333 hon. Gentleman fairly said that it is an entirely unfettered power—to select the amendments, new clauses or new schedules to be proposed. That is understood. However, it seemed to render fairly meaningless the right hon. Gentleman's efforts to present his motion as some form of appeal or exercise of appeal rights. If he wishes to institute a right of appeal he should seek to change the Standing Order rather than table motions that criticise the Chair.
§ Mr. William Cash (Stafford)Can my right hon. Friend tell me where Standing Order No. 31 gives the right certainly with respect to the selection of amendments and with it the right to choose whether a Division will take place? On page 405 of "Erskine May" and the sub-notes, can he tell me where the practice which has grown up is set out as to the question whether a specific matter should be subjected to a Division? If he would be good enough to do that, I would be interested to hear his comments.
§ Mr. NewtonMy hon. Friend is accepting what I said about Standing Order No. 31, which I shall read to him if he wishes. Sub-section (2) of that Standing Order is absolutely clear:
In committee of the whole House, the Chairman of Ways and Means and either Deputy Chairman shall have the like power"—to the Speaker in other circumstances—to select the amendments, new clauses or new schedules to be proposed".The right hon. Member for Chesterfield also quoted from page 405 of "Erskine May":It is a common practice to allow several amendments to be discussed together, although they have not all been selected to be moved. The Speaker or chairman may at his discretion call for division one or more of those amendments selected for debate with another or other amendments, if requested to do so.The key words are "at his discretion".
§ Mr. Roger Knapman (Stroud)Will my right hon. Friend give way?
§ Mr. NewtonNo, I will not give way for the moment.
What seems less clear to some, to judge both from the terms of the motion and some of the points of order made recently, is that the power of selection is separate from what the Chairman does when he groups amendments for debate. When he groups amendments, he calls the lead amendment—that is, he selects it under the provisions of Standing Order No. 31—and tells the Committee that, for the convenience of debate, he will allow the discussion of other amendments appearing later on the Order Paper.
Thus, when the right hon. Gentleman said that the Chairman of Ways and Means had selected amendment No. 27, that was not strictly the case. As I have just said, the occupant of the Chair selects an amendment when he calls an hon. Member to move it so that the House or Committee can take a decision on it. Amendment No. 27 has not been moved: it was grouped for debate with another amendment on which the Committee has voted.
Nor is it correct to say, as the motion does, that it was contrary to the normal practice not to allow a Division to take place on an amendment which has been debated. Many amendments are grouped for debate with selected amendments; whether they are subsequently selected for a 334 separate Division is a matter for the discretion of the Chair, as is clear from the extract that I have just quoted from "Erskine May". There is nothing automatic about it.
So when the right hon. Member for Chesterfield claims that the Chair's ruling has some great long-term significance for parliamentary debates on all future legislation, his argument simply does not stand up. The exercise of the Chairman's discretion in respect of amendment No. 27 has been entirely in accordance with the practice of the House, and his ruling has no long-term significance of the nature that the right hon. Gentleman suggests.
§ Mr. BennIf what the Leader of the House says is to be accepted, the Chairman could have given a simple answer. He could have said, "I will not allow a vote on the amendment. I did not select it." But he did not say that. He said that the amendment was not understandable or workable. That is the difficulty, because "Erskine May" makes it clear that the Speaker or Chairman does not give reasons. I can understand the reason why they do not give reasons. The reasons given in this case were wholly different from the ones which the Leader of the House has cooked up to resist the motion.
§ Mr. NewtonThese are not arguments that I have cooked up, but ones on which I have taken careful advice. They represent a straightforward description, as I understand it and as I am advised, of the procedural position in respect of the amendment.
I should make just one other point about the motion. It is the one brought out by the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett), the deputy Leader of the Opposition, in her intervention during my business statement yesterday, and acknowledged by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield today. It is the simple fact that, because the Committee has finished with the clauses of the Bill and is dealing with the new clauses, it is not possible for the Chairman to do as the motion asks. Indeed, amendment No. 27 has disappeared from the amendment paper.
The whole House knows that it is not the technicalities that are at issue here: it is the fundamental purpose and effect of the motion to which I referred earlier. The House has placed on the Chairman difficult and demanding responsibilities, within terms of reference which the House itself has determined. It has asked him to undertake those responsibilities during proceedings as difficult as any a Chairman has had to face for a long time.
For my part, I will say simply that, on all I have heard, seen and read in Hansard of those proceedings, he has exercised his responsibilities, whether in selecting and grouping amendments, listening and responding to many representations and innumerable points of order, or simply presiding over debate, with great care, great diligence and courtesy.
It is not a question whether any or all of us have liked each and every decision. The Chairman's is in some ways a role which produces a variant of one of the oldest political adages: it is a job in which you cannot please anyone all the time. There have been decisions unpalatable to those who want the social chapter and decisions unpalatable to those who do not. There have been decisions unpalatable to those who strongly support the Bill—
§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)Will the Leader of the House give way?
§ Mr. NewtonNo, I will not give way for the moment —and decisions unpalatable to those who vigorously oppose it. That is the nature of the job. As the Chairman himself put it in responding to a point of order on Monday:
I must and do take every factor into consideration, but at the end of the day the buck stops here: I have to choose the amendments."—[Official Report, 19 April 1993; Vol. 223, c. 44.]The point could not have been put better than it was by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) yesterday. He said that the motion sought to establish a dangerous precedent for the House, would have serious implications for the Chair, and is highly unfair to the Chairman of Ways and Means, who has conducted himself with good humour and tolerance.The question for the House is whether it will reject the challenge which the right hon. Member for Chesterfield has mounted to the support which the Chairman is entitled to expect, both when we like his decisions and when we do not. If the motion is not withdrawn, as it should be, I urge the House to reject it, and reject it decisively.
§ Mrs. Margaret Beckett (Derby, South)All of us in the House are conscious of the importance of the relationship, balanced as it is between conflict and confidence, that exists between the House and the Chair. As the Leader of the House has just acknowledged, there cannot be an hon. Member here who has not, from time to time, disagreed with a decision of the Chair, even if it is only that the hon. Member believes that the occupant of the Chair has failed to recognise that the debate in hand would be immeasurably enriched by his or her contribution. Equally, every Member recognises the good faith and integrity that the occupants of the Chair bring to their onerous and difficult duties, and the extent to which those duties place them at the centre of the storm when difficult and contentious decisions arise. One such decision and one such ruling is cited in the motion that we are debating.
The whole House and many in the country are well aware that the announcement that there would not be an opportunity for the Committee to vote on amendment No. 27 on the social chapter has caused widespread concern on both sides. Thai concern was fully expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham), the shadow Foreign Secretary, when the ruling was first given on 30 March. You, Madam Speaker, and the House will recall that further concern was expressed at length in our debates on 15 April and that my right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland moved on that day to report progress on the Bill so that a sustained debate could be held in which our grave concern could be—and was—fully expressed.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland made it clear then, and we have repeatedly sought to make it clear since, that we are still seeking and will continue to seek an opportunity to vote on amendment No. 27 before the Bill completes all the stages of its passage through the House. We look for the opportunity for that vote on the Report stage of the Bill, on which decisions have yet to be made.
336 With all respect to the care and devotion shown by the Chairman of Ways and Means in his conduct of the Committee stage, which we do not criticize—I was pleased by the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) when he moved the motion—we do not accept that amendment No. 27 and new clauses 74 or 75 are alternatives. My right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland explicitly made that case, as can be seen in Hansard. He said:
I do not regard new clause 74"—or 75—as an alternative to amendment No. 27, nor do I believe that it can be reasonably or realistically posed in those terms." —[Official Report, 19 April 1993; Vol. 223, c. 39.]
§ Sir David SteelWill the right hon. Lady clear up one point? When he moved the motion, the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) did not refer to the narrative of how new clauses 74 and 75 appeared on the amendment paper. If the Opposition were so confident of amendment No. 27, why did they table the two new clauses?
§ Mrs. BeckettIf the right hon. Gentleman had been attending the debates, I am sure that he would know the answer to that question, which is that we regard the subjects covered in the amendment and the new clauses as entirely separate issues. I shall return to that issue later. We believe that the new clauses and the amendment are complementary.
Concern has been expressed that a precedent might be set by the handling of amendment No. 27. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield referred a number of times to the use of the words "workable and acceptable". We can all understand that there might be concern about the juxtaposition of a vote on amendment No. 27 and new clause 75. I am not suggesting that that was the reason for the ruling given by the Chairman of Ways and Means, because, as we all know, for reasons that we all understand, the Chair does not give reasons for his or her decisions.
However, the argument might have been considered whereby it was thought that if amendment No. 27 were carried—removing the social protocol—it might remove the occasion for a vote on new clause 75. I can well understand that concern. However, we remain of the view that it would have been quite practical and possible for amendment No. 27 and new clause 75 to be debated separately, and that the one did not require a different decision from the other.
§ Mr. DalyellMy right hon. Friend rightly said that the Chair does not normally give reasons, but part of the trouble is that the Chairman of Ways and Means, wisely or not, appeared on the Scottish television programme, "Scottish Lobby" on 18 April and gave his reasons. I quote from his script:
And just on balance, because it was slightly more workable, I chose to have the debate on new clause 75.This may be part of the hazard of the Chairman going on television, but a reason was given.
§ Mrs. BeckettI would not criticise the Chairman of Ways and Means for his remarks which were no doubt intended to elucidate for the viewer what on earth it is we are going on about in here. I well understand his difficulty in doing so without straying into the territory that my hon. Friend has quoted. However, it would not be right for us to suggest, and I am sure that my hon. Friend did not 337 mean to do so, that the Chairman had strayed into giving reasons, as that would be a precedent and we all recognise that such a precedent should be avoided.
The Leader of the House said that the motion was not about the technicalities of the issue. I take his point, but he went on to defend at length the judgment that has been made on the vote on amendment No. 27. I must therefore say to him and to the House that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Copeland made crystal clear from the Front Bench on behalf of the official Opposition on 19 April, we have not accepted that an amendment that is in order, has been debated and has the official backing of the Opposition—it is tabled in the name of the Leader of the Opposition—should not be available for decision in the Committee. We do not accept that such a precedent has been set.
We had every reason to expect that there would be a Division. The Chairman of Ways and Means said in Committee:
We are some way off a vote on amendment No. 27."— [Official Report, 22 February 1993; Vol. 219, c. 685]That carries the connotation that there would be a Division and at that stage no one expected that there would not be a Division on amendment No. 27. He then suggested on television on 18 April that a Division on the amendment might have been expected at one stage. That is the real significance that we attach to the Chairman's remark. It immeasurably strengthens the case for a vote on amendment No. 27 on Report, which is perhaps a way of tidying up this extremely difficult matter.As was identified yesterday and reiterated by the Leader of the House today, we cannot now proceed, whether or not it is desirable, in the manner proposed by the motion tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield. "Erskine May" makes it absolutely plain on page 496 that once the Chairman has put the Question that the clause stand part of the Bill—and the Question was put on Monday—
No other amendment can be proposed to a clause after this question has been proposed from the Chair.My right hon. Friend suggested that some procedural method might be found, but he also suggested that we should take "Erskine May" as our bible and "Erskine May" leaves us in no doubt on the matter. That means that the question of an understanding approach to the desire of a majority in the House to decide on amendment No. 27 on Report—we know that there is a majority in the House, because otherwise we would not be having all this difficulty today—must inform our debate and decision.That brings me to my final point which I hope will be borne in mind, especially by Conservative Members. The hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Mr. Spicer) and the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel) sought to place the blame for these difficulties at the door of Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. I thought that the hon. Gentleman had incredible nerve. The scale of the difficulties faced by the Chairman of Ways and Means is the Government's creation.
It was the Government who claimed that amendment No.27 would wreck the Bill and the treaty. It was they who then claimed that, on the contrary, it would make no difference. It was they who brought in the Attorney-General, who failed to answer fully half the questions put 338 to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson), to tell us that this was all of no significance. It was the Government, in the shape of the right hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Garel-Jones), who went about their usual business of placing ideas in the minds of the Lobby and everyone else to the effect that the Opposition must find another way of raising these issues. And then the Government have the nerve to come to the House and ask why we sought to find other ways to raise them.
§ Sir David SteelWill the right hon. Lady give way?
§ Mrs. BeckettI have already given way to the right hon. Gentleman once and I have answered his point. I am almost at the end of my remarks and I do not want to take up too much time. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will catch your eye, Madam Speaker, and be able to make his own speech.
It is the Government, too, who, since the other new clauses have been tabled, have not only continued to cast doubt on the validity of a vote on amendment No. 27 but have claimed that every other amendment or new clause tabled by the Opposition is in some way ineffective. I am certain that it is not the desire of the Chair, but it is most certainly the desire of the Government, to prevent the House from reaching a decision on the social chapter or, if they cannot prevent it, to find a way of discounting or ignoring it. Their manoeuvrings are the direct cause of the difficulties that have understandably been experienced by the Chairman of Ways and Means.
For that reason, because we cannot do what the motion suggests, because the opportunity to vote on amendment No. 27 is not yet completely lost to us, and because of the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield about the respect in which the Chairman of Ways and Means is held in every part of the House, I very much hope that my right hon. Friend will follow the usual precedent once concerns of this nature have been aired in debate in the Chamber. I must tell the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) that these concerns have been aired on a number of occasions before—by the official Opposition when the Conservative party was the Opposition, by ourselves, and by Back Bench Members on both sides of the House. The phenomenon is not unknown, but usually when such concerns have been aired and such a debate has been held, the motion is either withdrawn or negated by voice only and not pressed to a Division.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield told the House that the only way to bring the matter before the House and to express concern was to table the motion. That is his view; it may or may not be the view of all Members. Unquestionably, however, he is not required to press the motion to a Division because he has brought it before the House, and I hope that he will not do so. If he chooses to do so, I must tell him that I will advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to vote against it.
§ Mr. Jeff Rooker (Birmingham, Perry Barr)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. May I ask you to rule on a matter? I regret having to do so, but you are the only person in a position to make such a ruling.
All three speakers so far have referred to a Report stage for the Bill. I want you to rule on whether the Report stage of a Bill that has been considered in a Committee of the whole House is different from the Report stage of a Bill considered in a normal Standing Committee. In past years, 339 I have moved more amendments in Committee that have been found to be defective than I have had hot dinners, but subsequently I have been able to find opportunities on Report to raise exactly the same issues.
For the avoidance of doubt, can you tell us whether the procedures are any different? Does the content of amendment No. 27—whether the wording is the same does not matter—mean that we are precluded from considering such an amendment on Report? It could only be selected by you, Madam Speaker, so it is only you who can give the ruling. Does the fact that the Bill has been considered on the Floor of the House prevent the House from coming to a conclusion on the precise contents of amendment No. 27?
§ Madam SpeakerThe whole situation and the matter raised by the hon. Gentleman are very hypothetical. In order not to leave the House in any doubt, I will make no ruling whatever. I will determine it when these matters are put before me at the appropriate time.
§ Mr. Roger Knapman (Stroud)I listened with care to the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett). If I heard her correctly, she said that she was actively looking for other ways of dealing with the matter than amendment No. 27. I suspect some of us can understand why.
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House quoted extensively from pages 404 and 405 of the procedural book, "Erskine May". Unfortunately, he finished at the end of the second paragraph on page 405, whereas to me the most important point is at the beginning of the third paragraph:
Selection is made by the Chair in such a way as to bring out the salient points of criticism".Therein for me lies the difficulty.May I draw the attention of the House to the European Communities (Amendment) Bill, hardly as long as the 63,500 words of the treaty, and to something which does not normally get much attention, the explanatory memorandum which says:
The Bill will have no direct financial effect in the United Kingdom.I invite the House to reflect on whether that is so. I suspect that it is not true and never has been. Only amendment No. 27 bears on the matter.My constituents in Stroud will be obliged, through VAT, to pay moneys to the advantage of countries which are presumed to have the benefit of the social chapter. In short, my constituents in Stroud will, through VAT, push money across to Sicily, Sardinia or other areas which are regarded as suffering poverty.
Many people say that there is an opt-out from the social chapter. What we mean is that we are giving the other 11 nations the opportunity to have a social chapter because they believe that it is in their interests. Perhaps the two great lies in the debate are, first, that opt-outs mean very much and, secondly, that if we do not have Maastricht we will not get inward investment. Perhaps the opt-out will be effective but by the time we have seen article 100A, on majority voting, and by the time that we have looked at health and safety legislation, and, most of all, the European Court of Justice, our opt-out may not be as effective as many think. Only amendment No. 27 addresses those points. If it is not called, we will get no opportunity to make our view known on behalf of our constituents.
§ Mr. Rupert Allason (Torbay)I am sympathetic to many of the views which my hon. Friend has expressed in the House in recent weeks. Can he explain why the issue cannot be raised on Report?
§ Mr. KnapmanMay I draw the attention of my hon. Friend to the fact that there is a movement towards new clauses 74 and 75? No doubt we shall be asked to look at new clauses which have not yet even been framed. The debate will be at a later stage. Therefore, there is little chance of amendment No. 27 being called by Madam Speaker at the appropriate time; of course, Madam Speaker, that will be a matter for you.
New clause 74 says:
This Act shall come into force only when the House of Commons has come to a Resolution on a motion tabled by a Minister of the Crown".At this stage we have no idea what that motion might say.The motion is not to me a form of challenge to authority. I speak as one who has been here for the 21 days of Committee proceedings. It is encouraging that the longer we carry on debating the Maastricht treaty, the more hon. Members are here.
§ Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)New clause 74 says that the powers of the legislation shall not take effect until there has been a debate on the social chapter. If the new clause is accepted in Committee, does not that make it difficult for the Chair to accept amendment No. 27 on Report? Is not that the problem?
§ Mr. KnapmanMy hon. Friend is exactly right. That must be so, and it was among the points that I was trying to make.
I promised in my note to you this morning, Madam Speaker, that I would not detain the House for more than one or two minutes. You will know that the whole House holds you in the greatest respect because we know that you are the guardian of Back Benchers' interests. My constituents are being asked, probably for the first time, to have their taxes sent abroad—I still feel that Sicily and Sardinia are abroad—at the very time when our county council is short of money for education. The matter is important and I want an opportunity to vote on it. Unless my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House can contradict me, I say that amendment No. 27 is the only one that deals with that matter.
§ Sir Russell Johnston (Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber)I shall begin with five short general observations which will enable my subsequent specific comments to be even briefer. The way in which the House deals with treaties may certainly be defective. The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) often draws attention to that in his not infrequent comments and criticisms of the Crown prerogative. However, that is not one of the responsibilities of the Chairman of Ways and Means, Who must handle debates according to the rules as they are. Neither do I understand it to be an objective of the Labour party to change those rules, although since that party is in an evolutionary phase my information on that may be dated.
Yesterday and today the right hon. Member for Chesterfield compared his motion with that moved by the late Sir Elwyn Jones in 1972 and said that it was,
supported by all Opposition Members."—[Official Report, 20 April 1993; Vol. 223, c. 184.]341 The right hon. Gentleman's memory is faulty. If he consults the Division lists for 1 and 6 March 1972 he will find my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Liberal party. We voted against such motions and my right hon. Friend the Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel), who was then the Whip of the Liberal party, spoke against it at that time. At that time his constituency was Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles.Thirdly, the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) said that the Chairman of Ways and Means gave an interview on 18 April on the "Scottish Lobby" programme. However, I think that the interview was on 3 April. I have a transcript, which seems bland and inoffensive. He gave that interview with the best of intentions. However, I think that, while it is accepted on all sides that a Chairman or, indeed, you, Madam Speaker, should not have to give reasons for decisions because of the inevitable disputation that will follow, television, radio and press in-depth probing interviews should not be taken up but left to other hon. Members who are not subject to such inhibitions.
A long time ago the late Horace King "ignited" the Blackpool illuminations. I did not greatly approve of that and interviews have potentially a much greater detonatory effect. Fourthly, the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Knapman) gave an interview this morning. It is difficult for me to comment on it because I was in the land of nod when the interview took place and have had to depend on my more wide-awake colleagues to tell me about it.[Interruption.] Perhaps we could ignore the rumbustiousness of some Opposition Front-Bench Members. I am told that the hon. Gentleman said that the Chairman of Ways and Means was in cahoots with the Government on closure motions and that, in the tailoring phrase of the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), the whole thing was stitched up. My version of the interview may be slightly wrong and if so I will gladly withdraw.
One could say that I am in a uniquely appropriate position to comment since I have been in cahoots with the Government throughout debate on the Bill on timing and procedure and I know what it is all about. It is not true that the Chairman of Ways and Means is in cahoots with the Government. Throughout the progress of the Bill the timing of closures has been decided solely by the Chairman of Ways and Means according to his judgment of an appropriate time for debate. The Government have known no more about it than anyone else in the House. It is quite wrong for an hon. Member to make such allegations.
To my sure and certain knowledge, throughout our proceedings in Committee the Chairman has behaved with impeccable impartiality and has given no advance indication of his intentions to any Member that he was unwilling to give to another. I shall give that point the added stress that membership of a minority party allows me to give. We are extremely sensitive to any possibility of collusion between the Chairman and the Government and to the possibility of the Chairman being cavalier in the treatment of minority opinion. The Plant committee, which was established by the Labour party, has again drawn attention to the fact that if our support in the country was reflected in the House we would have more 342 than 100 Members. In the light of that, I repeat that the Chairman of Ways and Means has behaved with impeccable impartiality.
§ Mr. KnapmanI draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the comments by my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) which are contained in Monday's record of our proceedings. I can confirm those, as can my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley (Mr. Cran).
§ Sir Russell JohnstonThat is a somewhat opaque comment. I regret that at my age instant recall is now denied to me.—[Laughter.]
§ Sir Nicholas Fairbairn (Perth and Kinross)As one who suffers from a similar difficulty, may I tell the hon. Gentleman that all the allegations, which he has correctly denied, are entirely hearsay, would not be allowed in the High Court or the lower courts of Scotland, and should not be allowed in the High Court of Parliament. They are a great slight on the Chair.
§ Sir Russell JohnstonI note the hon. and learned Gentleman's remarks. I do not think that he and I have similar problems; we may have parallel problems.
It is certainly true that the whole Committee could have been handled in a different way. That would have made not only the job of the Chairman less stressful but would have enabled the Committee to have a more engaged, more real, debate.
I have been taking part in debates on the European Community for two decades. They have reached the stage of a sort of religious disputation in which nobody ever wins. Nevertheless, I have come to respect the consistent opposition of people such as the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) and the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore). His constituency is no longer called Stepney and Poplar. They are minorities, like me. They deserve to be heard and their arguments must be addressed.
§ Mr. Michael Lord (Suffolk, Central)Although his memory may not be what it was, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is a fair man. Amendment No. 27 has been the most talked about amendment in the debate, and the amendment most discussed in the press and on television. It has been the amendment that Ministers have talked about, and debated on television. Being a fair man, does he not think that it is unreasonable that the House of Commons will not be allowed to vote on an amendment of such importance?
§ Sir Russell JohnstonI shall come to that point shortly.
I was talking about the handling of the Committee. Given its official support for Maastricht, the Labour party should have sat down with the Government and the minority parties and agreed a sensible timetable, and a limitation on speech length. I know that, in Committee, speech length is not normally limited, but it makes no sense for the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Cash) to speak for hours. Apart from anything else, it does not progress the debate in any rational fashion. It was wrong that the Labour party felt unable to do so, mainly because of its Euro-sceptics. While both major parties frequently extol the virtues of the House as a unique example of democracy, they have been guilty of being unwilling to 343 reform its procedures to make debate more of a meaningful discussion and less of a pyrotechnic confrontation.
§ Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton)This is not perhaps a terribly substantial point, but the hon. Gentleman spoke about the conduct of the Committee, through which I, like him, have sat virtually in its entirety. He made one of the first speeches, on one of the first amendments, and took an hour to do so. Is that the sort of limitation on speech length that he wants?
§ Sir Russell JohnstonI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his not terribly substantial intervention on my not terribly substantial point. I remind him that on that occasion I gave way to 24 interventions—no wonder the speech took so long.
The motion is about the refusal of the Chairman of Ways and Means to allow a vote on amendment No. 27. My party argued for a vote on amendment No. 27 because we want the House to vote on whether the United Kingdom should accede to the social chapter of Maastricht. In practice, it has turned out to be difficult to find an appropriate form of words to ensure that. The Attorney-General told us that amendment No. 27 would not have such an effect. Indeed, he said that it would have no effect at all. Presumably, unless we have a vote of no confidence in the Attorney-General—as far as I know no one has suggested that—his decision has to be accepted.
§ Mr. CashDoes the hon. Gentleman accept that those constitutional experts who are well acquainted with the constitutional usage and practice of the Law Officers of the Crown are deeply disturbed at the way in which the Attorney-General was brought into the argument? If anybody wishes to follow that up, he will find that there are substantial criticisms of the manner in which the Attorney-General was involved. No doubt, in due course, those will emerge.
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I remind the House that this is a limited motion. It deals only with the exercise of the Chair's discretion on amendment No. 27. I hope that the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston), who has the Floor of the House, and any others who are called to speak in the debate will limit their comments to the expressions in the motion before us.
§ Sir Russell JohnstonI am grateful for your guidance, Madam Speaker. I will leave what the hon. Member for Stafford has said, apart from saying that I have met few constitutional experts who do not spend most of the time being disturbed.
We are left with the judgment of the Attorney-General, so what does the Chairman of Ways and Means do then, poor thing? He is faced with that as a fact that he has to take into account. He knows that the House wants a vote on the social chapter, but his job is not to arrange that but to examine the amendments that are put before the Committee with that intention. What does he do when faced with an amendment that, according to the highest legal authority in the land, has no effect? His job is not to judge whether amendments will be carried but whether, if they are carried, they produce a clear result that can be implemented in law.
The right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn)) proclaimed at length the undesirability of being confined to what is workable and understandable. That is not an 344 unreasonable confination, if there is such a word, and it would have been a happy thing if it had been applied to him over many years.
§ Mr. BennWithout implying partiality by the Chairman—a point that neither the hon. Gentleman nor have put forward—the hon. Gentleman said that the Chairman was guided by the law in deciding whether to allow a vote on amendment No. 27 because of the question of workability. Is that the road along which the House wishes to go, with the Chairman depending on the Law Officers—I made that point in my speech—to know whether he should call an amendment? That would be a dangerous course to follow.
§ Sir Russell JohnstonThe right hon. Gentleman knows, probably better than me, that the Attorney-General is supposed to advise the House, not the Government. He is supposed to tell the House what, in his judgment, the law means. Therefore, I suppose that I would have to answer yes to the right hon. Gentleman.
None of us comes out of this covered with glory. Those of us who wanted a clear vote on the social chapter have failed to find a form of words to achieve that. The Liberal Democrats are also culpable in that, but the Labour party has far greater resources than we have, although both of us have equal access to the Clerks. Perhaps on Report we shall be successful. I hope so because I want such a vote.
We also have to recognise that, even if we achieve that elusive form of words on Report, such a vote would be carried only with the support of two groups. The first consists of Conservatives who are against Maastricht and the social chapter but who would vote against their views on the social chapter to achieve their objective of defeating Maastricht. The second consists of Labour Members who do not want Maastricht at all, even with the social chapter, and who will vote on the social chapter with the aim of defeating the whole book.
The justification for continuing through these byzantine tunnels and accepting some strange allies is the attempt to find some way to make the Government choose between having Maastricht with the social chapter or no Maastricht. I accept that that has been the object of my party and those on the Opposition Front Bench. None of that is either the fault or the responsibility of the Chair.
The right hon. Member for Chesterfield said that the House had been—"cheated" was the word that he used.
§ Sir Russell JohnstonPerhaps the right hon. Gentleman quoted with approbation. I do not see how he or anyone can say that and simultaneously claim that what he proposes casts no doubt on the Chairman's judgment.
§ Mr. BennI must correct the hon. Gentleman, because he misheard. I quoted my right hon. Friend the, Member for Copeland but I said that that was stronger language than I would have used. I would not have used the word "cheat" in respect of a decision by the Chair. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw that allegation because it would be unfair to give a false impression.
§ Sir Russell JohnstonI am not going to argue that something is when it was not. However—
§ Mr. DalyellMy right hon. Friend was very careful.
§ Sir Russell JohnstonIt does not matter. At the end of the day, whatever the right hon. Member for Chesterfield says, the essence of the debate comes down to this: do we trust the judgment of the Chairman of Ways and Means or not? I trust it, and, if necessary, I shall vote that way in the Lobby tonight.
§ Sir Peter Emery (Honiton)The debate is obviously not about Europe or about amendment No. 27, which is otiose because there is no way that it can be included in the Bill as it stands. Rather surprisingly, the debate is, in itself, one of the more important debates that have been held this Session, and the reason should be clear. We have no written constitution. The method and operation of Parliament are not because of a written constitution; in the place of a written constitution, we have precedents and procedure. It is the procedure of the House that governs the working of this place and ultimately safeguards the liberties of us all, both within the House and outside. That is why our procedures must be followed and must, in my judgment, be supported on all occasions.
I wish to make it absolutely clear that, in my view, the debate must end with an overwhelming vote of confidence in the Chairman of Ways and Means. There must be no escape, such as the withdrawal of the motion or a failure to appoint Tellers, which would prevent a vote taking place. We must not allow the matter to be left hanging around, suggesting an entirely unsatisfactory outcome to the debate. The reason for that is absolute. Indeed, it goes to the heart of our parliamentary system.
Parliament works not because it exists but because it is allowed to operate by the mutual consent of its Members, who over many years have established a procedure that allows individual Members, often of highly conflicting views, to be able to conduct debates and consider legislation in a way that enables Governments to govern and Opposition Members to debate fairly in expressing their points of view.
To that end, Madam Speaker, we elect you and senior Chairmen—they are similarly elected by the House—to rule over us and to ensure that debates and the general proceedings of the House are conducted in a proper and orderly manner, as established by the procedure that has been put in place.
§ Mr. SpearingI am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who is the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, for allowing me to intervene. Will he concede, particularly as the motion before us is a rarity—I think that the previous debate on such a motion took place about 20 years ago—that the procedure of the House allows for the safety valve of a debate of this sort? Such debates provide guidance for Chairmen in future and are integral to the practice of the House. They are therefore permissible, whatever the merits or demerits of any such motion.
§ Sir Peter EmeryThe hon. Gentleman is correct. The motion is in order. Indeed, we would not be debating it if it were not. However, when the authority of the Chair is questioned, as it is in the motion, we undermine the structure that I am determined to defend.
Those who claim that the motion is no criticism of my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, South (Mr. Morris), the Chairman of Ways and Means, do not live in 346 the real world. It must be seen as an attack on the Chairman's impartiality and the integrity of the Chair. It is—[Interruption.] Those who say no should listen for a moment. If the motion were passed, the Chairman, being a man of honour, would have no alternative but to resign. That needs to be clearly understood.
§ Sir Peter EmeryNo. Let the right hon. Gentleman sit for a moment.
As I have said, it must be clearly understood that the Chairman would have to resign. Whether the right hon. Gentleman likes it or not, that is the action that an honourable man would take.