Inner Cities (Policing)

§ Mr. Churchill (Davyhulme)

I beg to move, That this House congratulates Her Majesty's Government on increasing by almost 50 per cent. in real terms the resources available to the Police and on strengthening Police manpower by more than 11,000 since 1979, but notes with concern the far greater burden of reported crime, including crimes of violence and armed robbery, carried by individual Police officers in metropolitan areas as compared to the shire counties; and calls upon the Home Secretary to review further the needs of inner city Police forces for additional manpower and resources. In the Gracious Speech, the Government made it clear that in the life of this Parliament their plans to bring new life and new hope to inner cities would be central to their strategy and that inner cities would be given a new priority. As one who for 17 years has had the honour to represent a Greater Manchester constituency, I welcome that new priority. The regeneration of housing, business and jobs in the decaying and festering parts of our cities is urgent and overdue, but all efforts will be in vain unless those who live and work in the cities can walk the streets in safety and can feel secure in their homes. It is for that reason that, on learning that I had drawn first place in the ballot, I chose this subject for debate.

I am delighted to see the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) taking up his duties as shadow Home Secretary for the first time. I congratulate him on his new position. I venture to hope that, as someone who represents an inner-city area, I shall even enjoy some support from him today.

In metropolitan areas generally and in inner-city areas in particular, we face an alarmingly relentless upward surge in crime, combined with a critical shortage of police manpower and resources to deal with it. Our policy is to request the Government to undertake an urgent reexamination of resources. The police need help. I trust that my plea will reach the Home Secretary and that he will address the problem as a matter of urgency. Only if we get a firm grip on crime and violence in the inner cities can the Government hope their strategy to succeed.

Whatever the grants and other inducements to people to move into the inner cities to set up businesses and to open shops, they will not remain in an environment if they are frightened and feel threatened. That is why policing the inner cities is an essential prerequisite to the urban regeneration to which the Government are committed. It is absurd to imagine that people will invest in shops and businesses if they are regularly vandalised and if as a result insurance premiums are way beyond the rates thai they can afford.

There are some recent instances of shopkeepers in inner Manchester having to sleep in their shops permanently because they are so alarmed by the number of times that their shops have been broken into during a single year. The people who work in those shops are entitled to feel that they can go about without risk of being mugged, raped or subjected to other violent assault.

The Home Office and successive Home Secretaries have repeatedly laid heavy emphasis on the importance of the efficient use of police resources and manpower within individual police force areas. That is important, and I do not dissent from it in any way, but is it not even more vital to ensure that those resources are used to maximum effect on a national scale? There is clear evidence of 1393 maldeployment of resources in the fight against crime. Unless that is addressed decisively, the situation will get out of hand in the inner cities where crime rates are soaring and detection rates declining.

When I decided to propose this motion, I had a very strong suspicion that the metropolitan areas in general had significantly higher crime rates and commensurately fewer resources than the shire counties. I am appalled at the extent to which the surmise is borne out by the statistics and other research provided by our admirable Commons Library. I should like to thank in particular Robert Clements and Mary Baber in the home affairs department.

According to a working paper prepared by the Home Secretary entitled "Criminal Justice 1986", The number of offences recorded by the police in England and Wales has risen from half a million in the 1950s, a million by the mid-60s, 2 million in the mid-70s and over 3½ million in 1985. In other words, crime increased by 100 per cent. between 1955 and 1965, by a further 100 per cent. between 1965 and 1975 and by a further 75 per cent. in the last decade. This is a truly phenomenal rate of increase and is most alarming to our constituents throughout the land. It can only be a matter of great concern to us as legislators.

Generally, crime is not spread evenly throughout the nation—far from it. There is a stark distinction between the rural shire counties, where the incidence of crime is well below the national average, and the metropolitan areas, especially the inner cities, where the crime rate is well above the national average.

If one takes notifiable offences recorded by the police in England and Wales in 1985 and makes a comparison between the metropolitan areas and shire counties, a disturbing picuture emerges. The crime rate in the metropolitan areas was 61 per cent. higher for theft and handling stolen goods, 67 per cent. higher for homicide and attempted murder and 96 per cent. higher for rape. At the same time, there were more than twice as many burglaries, two and a half times as many offences involving firearms and no fewer than seven and a half times as many robberies in the metropolitan areas than in the shire counties.

The "British Crime Survey" second report states: Across the country some 4 per cent. of homes were burgled or were targets of attempted burglary in 1983. But the risks varied markedly. … Almost two-thirds of households fall in low risk' areas with rates for burglaries and attempts ranging from 1 per cent. in agricultural areas—one quarter the average—to 3 per cent. in areas of modern family housing … Multi racial areas and the poorest council estates show risks which are roughly three times above the average. Multiple victimisation was especially frequent in these high risk areas, with homes being burgled twice or more over the year; the burglary rate is thus higher than the percentage of victims: including attempts, the figures was as high as 19 incidents per hundred homes in the poorest council estates. " That is terrifying.

§ Mr. Tony Favell (Stockport)

My hon. Friend might be interested to know that I recently took up the issue with the chief superintendent for Stockport. My hon. Friend might know Adswood, the worst council estate in the area. I asked about the incidence of crime at Adswood and whether much of the crime was perpetrated by people living on the estate. He informed me that 90 per cent. of all crimes in the worst area of Stockport were perpetrated by neighbours. Is that not an appalling statistic?

§ Mr. Churchill

I agree with my hon. Friend. I am sure that that situation is reflected in Trafford.

The report continues: Risks of burglary (and indeed other crime) were higher in the metropolitan areas, suggesting that there are particular features of large cities—deprivation being one—which heightens the risks of crime. One does not need a degree in sociology to appreciate that.

I seek to illustrate the general proposition which I have advanced by reference to the police force in the Greater Manchester area. Excluding London, Greater Manchester recorded 10.5 per cent. of notifiable offences in 1986, but it has only 7.5 per cent. of the police manpower. If police force establishments were related to crime—there is a strong case for believing that they should be—9,805 officers would be needed in the Greater Manchester force. That is an increase of 41 per cent. over the present establishment of 6,943.

Greater Manchester police force is the largest provincial force in the country. In 1986 it recorded 321,458 notifiable offences. I am sad to relate that Greater Manchester has the highest crime rate in the country. It is double that of areas such as Lancashire, Cumbria and Dorset, and almost three times the rate in Suffolk, Surrey and Dyfed Powys in Wales.

The force is divided into three crime areas, each of which is equivalent to a large county force. The western crime area covers Trafford, Salford, Bolton, Wigan and Bury and it incurred more notifiable crime than in 37 of the 43 police authorities in England and Wales.

The central crime area which covers the city of Manchester and the eastern crime area covering Ashton, Stockport, Rochdale and Oldham each incurs more crime than 35 provincial forces. The Salford division alone records more notifiable offences than 11 whole police forces, including the whole of Surrey. A notable comparison is that Surrey's establishment is 1,639 officers compared with the Salford division which has only 666 officers, although they have to deal with more crime.

In the 12 years between 1975 and 1986, crime within the Greater Manchester area increased by more than 111 per cent. with violence increasing by 76.4 per cent., house burglary by 234 per cent., robbery by 272 per cent. and criminal damage by 500 per cent. That means that each and every officer in the Greater Manchester force had on average to investigate 22 crimes in 1975 and 47 crimes in 1986. While crime has increased by 111 per cent. during that 12-year period, the establishment of police has increased by only 4.75 per cent. In other words, crime in Greater Manchester over the past 12 years has been outstripping the growth in resources by a factor of 20.

§ Mr. Clive Soley (Hammersmith)

How does the hon. Gentleman respond to the view expressed by a number of senior police officers—Sir Kenneth Newman certainly being one that I agree with—that increasing the number of police officers has little effect on the crime rate because policing is responsive? Should he not he looking at something other than the number of police officers if he is serious about reducing the crime rate?

§ Mr. Churchill

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I am not suggesting that increasing the police force is the sole requirement, but we have got to such a critical state that we are even having to stack 999 calls because there is not the manpower to respond immediately. This is a horrifying state of affairs. I trust that my hon. Friend the 1395 Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department will sit up and pay attention to this serious state of affairs. The Home Secretary has a responsibility for assessing the manpower of the Metropolitan police force in London. Compared to the Metropolitan police in London, the Greater Manchester force has to cope with 65 per cent. more crimes per officer. Our force has to deal with 47 crimes per officer whereas the Metropolitan force has to deal with only 28.5 crimes per officer. How does the Home Secretary justify this disparity of 65 per cent. in the workload between the Metropolitan force in London and the Manchester force?

It is clear that protecting the Royal Family, Ministers, and the diplomatic community places a heavy burden on the Metropolitan police, as do their own international and national obligations. However, if there were to be the same ratio of police to crime in Manchester, we would need an increase of more than 4,000 officers in the GMP, bringing it up to 11,286.

§ Mr. Paul Boateng (Brent, South)

It is interesting to hear the hon. Gentleman compare the situation in Greater Manchester with that in Greater London. Would he welcome the abolition of the police authority in Greater Manchester and the transfer of its powers to the Home Secretary, which is the situation that we have to endure in London? In making the comparison between Greater Manchester and London in terms of the incidence of street attacks on members of racial minorities, I advise him that in London, even with the police manpower as he has so correctly described, Asians are 50 times more likely to suffer from racial harassment or street attacks than whites, and Afro-Caribbeans are 35 times more likely to suffer from racial harassment or street attacks than whites. Those are Home Office figures. Does the hon. Gentleman have any comment?

§ Mr. Churchill

Every Member of the House would deplore that state of affairs and the racial harassment that undoubtedly occurs in the inner-city areas. The overwhelming majority of the community are wholly opposed to that sort of behaviour. My constituents and I would warmly welcome the same sort of resources in Manchester that the Home Secretary provides for the Metropolitan police force in London, but, that said, we are content to regulate our own affairs in Manchester. However, we cannot do it without the resources.

To give an indication of the level of overstretch that confronts us at present, I would merely cite the case of the town of Oldham within the Greater Manchester police area. At any one time, there is a maximum of five beat officers available in Oldham to patrol 1,000 miles of pavement in 54 square miles of town with a population of 221,000, 87,100 houses, 157 schools, 11,500 businesses, 2,200 shops, 392 public houses, 12 parks, 12 youth centres and two football clubs. Is this a realistic level of policing? If he agrees with me that it is not, I hope that he will press within the Home Office for an urgent review.

Mr. James Anderton, our chief constable, does a superb job in the city of Manchester. In his most recent report for the year 1986, he referred to the chronic shortage of police manpower. He said that there is a chronic shortage of manpower. It is severely aggravated by unprecedented levels of crime"; and it is 1396 galling for police to have to operate a highly selective policy of law enforcement and public protection…they struggle to respond to well over a million specific calls for police assistance, including nearly 300,000 reports of crime. The situation is now so critical that 999 calls have to be stacked.

§ Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South)

Are not those figures a typical Anderton-style pronouncement? The allocation of five officers to patrol 1,000 miles of pavement. surely is the responsibility of the chief constable of that very large force. When the Minister replies, perhaps he can outline what investigations there have been into the optimum number of beat police per five pavement miles over a week? Surely that is the criterion that the lion. Member should go for.

§ Mr. Churchill

I have every sympathy for the predicament in which our chief constable and I believe other chief constables find themselves with overstretched resources. My constituents all say that they want to see more bobbies on the beat. That is understandable. I fully accept that view. Policemen on the beat are least able to make an urgent response to a 999 call. There has to be a balance. It is more important that there should be a ready force available to move in swiftly whenever there is a reported incident or crime. An officer on foot or on a bicycle in most cases is not able to respond to reports of crime in the same way, given the vast areas that we are talking about, although I fully accept that they have a certain deterrent value and that we would all like to see more of them. However, that is not the be-all and end-all of policing in the inner cities. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree.

The responsibility for this rests on three bodies: first, on Parliament for imposing new legislation without regard to the manpower implications that it has for police forces; secondly, on local government, which frequently in the inner-city areas is obstructive and even hostile to the police rather than supportive: and, thirdly, on the Home Office, on whose deaf ears our pleas for additional resources have fallen. The Government have given a high priority to policing. They have increased police resources by nearly 50 per cent. and police manpower by over 11,000. All credit to them for that. However, they should now devote more attention to the policing of the inner cities.

The chief constable referred in his report to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. He said: The requirements of the legislation have necessitated a programme of extensive structural alterations to most designated police stations…The average length of time taken to process prisoners has increased significantly, and the corollary is that officers engaged with prisoners are spending less time on operational duties. The chief superintendent in the Trafford division reports that the Police and Criminal Evidence Act has resulted in a noticeable decrease in the overall number of persons arrested in the division. These figures were not wholly unexpected in view of the extra demand made upon police time and resources by this legislation. Indeed, that was backed up by the excellent report of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary for 1986 which was published only two days ago.

There has been a significant erosion of police officer hours in the Greater Manchester area by the restriction of overtime. Between 1974–75 and 1986–87 the working week of detectives in the Greater Manchester police has dropped from 56 hours to 44 hours. That is a reduction of 21 per 1397 cent., or equivalent to losing 340 detectives. That is happening at a time when crime has more than doubled. In 1975, the Greater Manchester police had a detection rate of 50.5 per cent. Between 1975 and 1986 reported crime increased to over 300,000 and the overall detection rate fell by over 23 per cent.

§ Mr. Favell

My hon. Friend was talking about the time wasted by the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Would he care to comment on or consider the time wasted taking prisoners to and from court when they are being remanded in custody? Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said that there had been an increase of 1,000 in the number of prisoners remanded in custody over the past 12 months. That puts additional strain not only on the prison establishment, but upon the police establishment, because prisoners have to be produced in court and they have to be taken backwards and forwards. That results in a loss of time for our constables. Is it not time that we introduced the Scottish system throughout the country and not just in the three pilot areas?

§ Mr. Churchill

I agree 100 per cent. with my hon. Friend. I feel that those duties would be handled more appropriately by civilians rather than police.

The effect of increasing the allocation of annual leave by three days some three or four years ago was to reduce the manpower available within Greater Manchester by the equivalent of 400 or 500 officers. Chief constables were not consulted about that decision. Because of the escalating crime rate, there have been more injuries to members of the police force. The chief constable said: The number of days lost through injury on duty has doubled since 1981, and in 1986 no fewer than 670 officers were physically assaulted…The total loss of effective duty time through sickness and injury suffered by police officers in 1986 was equivalent to a reduction of 548 officers in the strength of the force. Manchester city council has been especially unhelpful to the police in their task. The far Left fanatics have been relentless in their hostility to the police, who they see as a class enemy and antagonistic to society. The agenda of the council's police monitoring committee for Monday of this week is illustrative. It deals with police weapons, which it opposes, the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1984, which it opposes, Chief Constable Anderton's report of which it is critical, and the incident at Manchester university involving the Home Secretary. The committee's attitude to all those matters has been insidious, objectionable, offensive, negative and downright anti-police.

§ Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North)

rose——

§ Mr. Churchill

The hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to make his own speech. I must get on

. The publication produced by Manchester city council police monitoring committee called "Police watch" is especially objectionable. It regularly attacks the police in their jobs and clearly there are certain people in high places in the city of Manchester—I venture there is the same in other inner city areas—who find it more fun to watch the police than the criminals. In the area that covers my constituency, the Trafford division, we watch criminals. We have blazed the trail for the country in terms of neighbourhood watch. We now have 2,000 schemes in the Trafford division alone. Of course, those on Manchester 1398 city council who involve themselves in these matters have resisted the spread of the neighbourhood watch schemes. They see them as spying on people. It is far from that. They said that they would never work in the inner-city areas with ethnic minorities, and so on. The ethnic minorities and people in the inner city areas welcome the schemes with open arms. They are the ones who have been terrorised by the wave of criminal violence and vandalism. The response has been enormous. In those areas of the Trafford division where the neighbourhood watch scheme has been working for one year or more there has been a 42 per cent. reduction in the number of house burglaries.

I should like to refer to the importance of building good relations between the police and the local community in inner-city areas. Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary deplores the action of those who seek to drive a wedge between the police and the community they are there to protect. I have little doubt that he had the city of Manchester in mind when he said: in some of the very inner city areas where the spirit of cooperation between responsible agencies is most needed, the police have met with attempts, some of them politically motivated, to undermine these efforts and drive a wedge between police and community. It is vital that this should not be allowed to happen. I should like to make a brief reference to the wonderful work being done by the Greater Manchester police. I am indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Sir E. Griffiths), who told me of the wonderful enthusiasm with which members of the Greater Manchester police supported fund-raising efforts to send British competitors to the world special Olympics for the disabled. Of all the police forces in the country, none did more than Manchester police. They carried torches, literally, throughout their force area and raised £6,000—more than one fifth of the total. It was a triumph for their dedication and caring attitude. Therefore, we in Manchester all the more resent the anti-police attitude and the hyper-critical attitude adopted by Manchester city council.

Faced with the relentless rise in crime and critical shortages of police and CID manpower to cover this inner-city and metropolitan area, the chief constable of Greater Manchester has only this month renewed his appeal to the Home Office for more resources. This is now a matter of the greatest urgency. We need about 40 per cent. more police officers. We do not care how it is achieved, but there has to be a drastic rethink of the way in which the balance is apportioned between the shire counties, which have a relatively low level of crime, and the inner-city areas, which are fighting a losing battle. Urban deprivation and the special problems identified in policing such areas must be recognised at national level and accurate targeting of resources made a primary objective.

§ Mr. Ted Garrett (Wallsend)

I congratulate the hon. Member for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill) on raising this issue. I am pleased that, for a Friday, there is a fair attendance in the House. It shows that it is right and proper that we should have time for a debate on the police. At the outset I should state that I have an interest, in that I have relatives who have served, or are serving, in various constabularies throughout the country. In my opinion, the police have been subject to unfair criticism, not only in London and Manchester, but in other areas of the United Kingdom, which has an insidious effect on morale.

1399 I give two lectures per year for the Police Federation, and lecture for the Durham police, as part of a senior officers' training course. I am always impressed by the dedication of the men who participate in those courses and by the fact that they avoid cynicism. Because of the pressures that are put on the police it would be easy for them to develop a cynical and indifferent attitude or an "us and them" complex.

We still have a citizen police force in this country. It is not a paramilitary force, although sometimes I think that it is getting close to that. We are all responsible for that civilian police force, although the degree of responsibility may vary. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng) about the control of the police in the city of London, the former Greater London council area, where the position is deplorable. If the present Home Secretary does not grasp that nettle, a future Home Secretary will.

I should like to spend some time discussing the crimes that are being committed. Yes, there is violence and sexual assault, but nobody has yet told me the number of police man hours that are spent investigating the scale of fraud that takes place. We have no idea about that. We arc sometimes told the number of man hours that are used to investigate a major murder, but the number of man hours that are used on large-scale fraud investigations has never been revealed to the public. I hope that the Minister will consider that and conduct an investigation into, and issue a publication on. that aspect of crime, because it is one of the most insidious of crimes.

When I was a young lad, I remember that if someone was convicted of fraud, whether a local fraud that would be modest by today's standards, or a major fraud, that person's career would be over. Such a person would be separated from the rest of society. However, our society now looks with admiration on some of the fraudsters for their skill and daring. In the past few days a newspaper has praised the skill and initiative of the persons who broke into some safes and who, with their skill, gathered a large income of between £20 million and £30 million. Today, we look with admiration on such frauds and robberies. We must change our attitudes.

It is no accident that the United Kingdom is regarded as the dirtiest country in Europe. It is because we accept petty crime as inevitable. In the 1950s, the then hon. Member for Hexham, Sir Rupert Speir, introduced a private Member's Bill on the subject of litter. That happened 30 years ago, and we never hear of or see prosecutions for litter offences now. We must ask ourselves why so much litter is dropped and why there is so much graffiti and vandalism. It happens because of the attitudes that we ourselves adopt.

The class of society from which one comes is irrelevant. Attitudes in the home and parental attitudes are always a major factor in the increase in petty crime. We all turn our eyes from it. Every one of us has seen some petty crime in our time, but we never say to the young offender, "That is a damned silly thing to do," because we are afraid to do so. It takes courage to tell a person on the Underground, who has his feet on the seat opposite, to get his bloody feet off that seat. It takes courage, because one might be knifed or beaten up. Many youngsters these days feel that it is macho to knife somebody or to beat him up.

When such young offenders are arrested, to whom do the parents come about that "wrongful" arrest? They come to their Member of Parliament and say that he or she 1400 should take up the issue of their children being wrongfully arrested or wrongfully having to appear before the courts. That suggests that the parents themselves do not hake the courage to tackle their children about the offences that they commit. Therefore, we must begin a period of reeducation.

In the various ways that are open to us, we must adopt the approach of assisting, not antagonising, the police. Sometimes the police misbehave. I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) will seek to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to make a statement about the Holloway case. The mother of one of the police who was innocent and who was framed has approached me about that case because she is a Newcastle woman whose son serves in the Metropolitan police. All that I shall say about those crimes and that conviction is that the police officers involved did something terrible in indicting fellow officers who were completely innocent. When we think of the misery that was inflicted on those fellow officers, the anxieties of their wives and mothers and the suspensions that they have had to face, in my judgment that aspect of the crime has not been punished severely enough. However, my hon. Friend will deal with that at greater length.

I shall conclude by being parochial, and I apologise for that. The area of Tyne and Wear in Northumberland is served by the Northumberland police. Like the police force in Manchester, that force is first-class and is stretched beyond the limits. In our modern society, we created what was thought of as one of the first-class metropolitan transport systems in Europe. We put every crime detection device of which we could think into the Tyne and Wear rapid transport system. However, facts are facts—passengers are being threatened and assaulted and, in spite of the protective measures, damage is occurring. So, in our modern society, we must seek resources to employ police to look after a transport system of which the citizens should be proud. We, the taxpayers, not only in the House, but outside, are having to pay because young people are not accepting their responsibilities as young citizens or as future older citizens.

I ask the Minister to consider the Northumberland police's request for more resources to provide more police. If that wish is granted, I assure the Minister that those police officers will be doing a first-class and useful job. I am aware that when the request is granted police will not appear on the streets overnight. It takes almost three years to produce what one might call a competent policeman. Nevertheless, if there is the will to find the resources and to start a massive programme to re-educate the public about the costs of policing and the ways in which such costs could be saved, this debate will have served a useful purpose.

§ Several Hon. Members

rose——

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)

Order. A large number of hon. Members are seeking to participate in the debate. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett) for setting an example in brevity.

§ Mr. Irvine Patnick (Sheffield, Hallam)

As this is my maiden speech, I am pleased to pay tribute to my predecessor, Sir John Osborn. I am sure that that tribute will be echoed throughout the House. The stewardship of 1401 the constituency was in his hands for over 25 years and during that period he was one of the most respected and valued Members of the House. His work on behalf of his constituents was renowned, and as one of them I can vouch for his efforts. As a Sheffield city councillor, which I remain, I was aware of how Sir John was closely involved in the affairs of the city and of the county of South Yorkshire. Many tributes to his work and efforts have been expressed to me during my period here by Members of all parties.

I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill), and the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett), in that I contend that they are trying to treat the spots of measles to cure our problems. During my period as leader of the opposition on South Yorkshire county council from the county's creation to its abolition—I hasten to assure the House that that is a record of which I am not proud—I worked closely with the South Yorkshire police. During that period of 12 years many changes took place in the support of the council and the public for the police.

Policing inner-city areas is not an easy task. As we have already heard, no two cities are the same. The problems in policing have been created by some of the great ideas that we had years ago, such as pedestrianisation, high-rise flats and estate design. Indeed, some decks and even bus stations are not dedicated highways, so are out of bounds to police patrolling.

A further retrograde step took place during the miners' strike, when authorities supported the miners by deed and action. The South Yorkshire county council was partially responsible for police funding and had its members as members of the South Yorkshire police authority. Some of the county council's actions, while not exactly denying funding or support to the chief constable, made the cash harder to obtain. The council furthermore decided that the chief constable should be answerable to it. In the language now fashionable, the council "decided" that the police and the chief constable should be "answerable" to it, and in the language of councilspeak, the police were to be "accountable" or "under democratic control". Other councils now echo those words, and from the seeds that were sown police monitoring panels have sprung up. The sole aim of the council is to obtain democratic control of the police.

Sheffield city council, as one would expect, has a police panel, a monitoring group and a magazine. In issue No. 1 the then chair of the police panel replied to the question, "Will the new police panel affect policing in Sheffield" with: Certainly the aim is to improve police accountability in the city. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Opposition Members say, "Hear, hear" and that is the difference between us. They see the chief constable as answerable to them. I thought that it was courteous during a maiden speech to be left slightly alone. Hon. Gentlemen will have a chance to take me on any time any day.

That same chair of the police panel was one of the leading councillors who invited those commemorating Bloody Sunday to hold their march in Sheffield. The day the march was held violent skirmishes took place between the marchers and a rival outfit, and some of my constituents could not go about the centre of Sheffield 1402 because of the eruption. Naturally, the jam in the sandwich was the police, who stepped in to protect innocent bystanders. Thanks to the Public Order Act 1986, such violence on the streets and the protection of vulnerable people is now possible.

Policing inner-city areas is not solely the responsibility of the police; it is everyone's responsibility. I am old enough to remember when policing local areas, such as Hillsborough—the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) the Opposition spokesman on police authorities comes from the same area and Hillsborough is his favourite shrine—which were not described as inner-city areas then, was done by a local bobby, a minister of religion, the head teacher, parents or guardians and local residents. They all kept an eye on their area and woebetide the law breakers.

With the loosening of family ties, the decline of the spirit of the community, the relaxation of discipline, the distinction between right and wrong becoming blurred and with respect for oneself and others not being taught or applied, lawlessness has increased in today's British society. Discipline is no longer a priority and efforts to rekindle values are often ridiculed. It is against that background that the rebirth of pride in our community has started.

Much has been done to police inner-city areas. More police manpower is available, more civilian staff have released trained officers from administrative work, more money has been used to fund the police centrally, more police from ethnic minorities have been recruited, and more police now patrol on foot. Despite what my hon. Friend the Member for Davyhulme said, in South Yorkshire we have what is known as response cars, and response cars respond. More emphasis is being placed on prevention and the handling of disorders and there is more effort to involve the communities. All those Government measures form part of a policy firmly based on the concept of community policing to ensure that the police are more effective. Even more effort is proposed to ensure that what we require is what we get.

The Government are worried about the widespread use of offensive weapons and action will be taken on the sale and possession of items which have no legitimate use and can be used to injure and maim. Action will be taken on lenient sentences, as proposed in the Criminal Justice Bill, and more action is proposed on crime prevention.

Earlier, I referred to the design of housing estates. The design of estates in the 1960s and 1970s has much to answer for. One right hon. Gentleman was in charge of the housing of one major inner city at that time. Those estates have created some of the problems of inner-city areas, including policing problems. In a debate it is easy to blame each and every ill of inner-city areas on unemployment, but in the 1930s, when unemployment was proportionately higher and was virtually unrelieved by benefits, crime figures were lower.

Earlier, I also referred to political interference in policing. In yesterday's Yorkshire Post Stanley Barrett, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary and a former chief constable in South Yorkshire, gave a warning in his annual report for 1986. One of the things that I was taught in South Yorkshire was always to get in first, otherwise someone else would. My hon. Friend the Member for Davyhulme mentioned some parts, but not all, of the report. Mr. Barrett stated: 1403 The comparatively low levels of disturbance were due to officers of all ranks seeking to build greater co-operation and good relations with the community…It is all the more sad to relate that, in some of the very inner city areas where the spirit of co-operation between responsible agencies is most needed, the police have met with attempts, some of them politically motivated, to undermine these efforts and drive a wedge between police and community. It is vital that this should not he allowed to happen. That reinforces my point.

I do not accept my hon. Friend's argument that to throw money at the police, however well intentioned, or to increase manpower, is the way forward. We must ensure that the proper equipment is provided. The hon. Member for Wallsend spoke about graffiti and litter. They add to the dereliction of an area and must be tidied up. We must instil a sense of pride in those who use and visit our cities and in the people who live in them.

The regeneration of our inner-city areas, including those in Sheffield, is required for them again to thrive and to become the commercial centres that they once were. Co-operation by all in the community and from every possible avenue and agency is essential to bring back respect, pride and industry to our inner-city areas and so to assist with the policing of those areas.

§ Mrs. Rosie Barnes (Greenwich)

First, I compliment the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick) on his competent maiden speech. I agree with him that we must tackle not only the symptoms of crime but the causes.

This annual debate takes place against the background of a report from the Metropolitan police commissioner, which follows the pattern of many previous annual reports. It talks about rising levels of crime and falling levels of detection. We are constantly being told that rising crime is not the fault of the Government, who rightly say that crime levels have risen consistently for many years. However, that is a far cry from what they said in 1979 when they promised the country law and order and claimed that their policies would stop rising crime as other policies could not. They should now have some humility, because they have failed in that task.

It is worrying that not only is the crime rate rising persistently but the fear of crime is increasing almost disproportionately. Many old people and younger women are beginning to feel that they cannot lead normal lives. They are afraid to go out after dark, and in some of the worst areas they are even afraid to go out during the day. Mothers are afraid to let their children go out to the local park to play for a few hours even on fine sunny days. We must consider not just crime and detection but the effect that fear of crime has on people's lives.

In recent weeks there has been much debate about whether officers on the beat are effective in detecting and reducing crime. I am open to persuasion on that. However, the officer on the beat is invaluable in alleviating the fear of crime. Old people feel safe to walk down the street when they see that familiar presence and women feel confident in allowing their children to go to the park, knowing that the policeman on the beat will be in the vicinity and will look in periodically. We must tackle not just crime and detection but the fear of crime, which is almost paralysing people's lives in some parts of the inner cities.

I take issue with the comments made earlier about the causes of crime. Opposition Members relate increased crime to unemployment, poverty and social deprivation. 1404 Our young people are without jobs, sometimes for a year or more, and it cannot be said to often that the devil makes work for idle hands. Conservative Members say that in the depression in the 1930s crime was not rampant although poverty was rife.

That is not a direct comparison.

In the 1930s everyone was hard hit by the depression. Even those in jobs fell on hard times. There was not the huge divide that there is now between the haves and the have-nots. Television screens were not advertising glossy cars or aftershave by showing young people at discotheques buying fancy drinks and having a whale of a time. That is rubbing it in for those young unemployed people who cannot afford to go out and live that sort of life. Times have changed since the 1930s and the distinction between the haves and the have-nots is very marked—nowhere more so than in our inner cities. In my constituency of Greenwich I have poor areas right next to affluent areas and the youngsters in one part of the constituency see the lives of those in the others. A father who has been out of work and cannot afford basic necessities for his children easily resorts to petty crime he pinches from areas where he thinks that very little will be missed. We should be clear that we are talking about a great increase in petty theft from homes and cars. I do not condone it. I would simply say that the parallel that the Government draw with the 1930s does not hold good and that we must consider the underlying causes of crime as well as crime itself.

I view with no sympathy local authorities which have undermined the authority of the police or the respect in which the police are held. I have worked closely with the police in Greenwich and I have found them to be dedicated, professional and caring. But I have felt that their position has been undermined by constant onslaughts on their integrity and their motives. Some local authorities have police support groups and police monitoring groups and Labour councillors in Greenwich did all that they could to inhibit the development of neighbourhood watch schemes. Such activities have created a barrier between the local authorities and the police and their effects have reverberated throughout the community. Some people do not know whether they should trust the police or not.

The majority of people in Greenwich and throughout the country want a responsible, competent and professional police force. They want to see more policemen on the beat and to know that law and order is being upheld. However, this is not a one-sided issue. The alliance has always stood firmly by the need for an independent police complaints procedure. It is very important that complaints are investigated fairly and are seen to be investigated fairly. I agree with Sir Kenneth Newman that an independent police complaints procedure has clear attractions in terms of obvious even-handedness and saving of the police force's We own valuable resources." We should urgently and seriously consider such a procedure.

§ Mr. John Wheeler (Westminster, North)

Is not the hon. Lady aware that we have an independent police complaints authority? Has not she read its report? Does she not appreciate people's increasing confidence in its activities? Is she suggesting that that authority is not succeeding in its task?

§ Mrs. Barnes

I made no such allegation. I merely said that the investigation of complaints against the police should be completely independent of the police. It is unacceptable for one police force to investigate the activities of a neighbouring police force. The investigations need to be independent of the police.

Opposition Members attach great importance to community policing. I have already talked about the need for more policemen on the beat. Increased community policing will restore confidence in the police and improve relationships between the police and the local community. In that respect, housing for the police is critical—especially in London, but in other inner city areas, too. Increasingly, the police who serve Greenwich live miles away in the suburbs and in a different environment and come in each day to police the area. We need provision for adequate housing for the police in the community that they serve. It would break down the barriers between the police and the local community. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have talked about how policing used to be—when local dignitaries were involved in and kept an eye on the police. There was very much a community attitude on how the police should function, and those policemen were of the community and of the people. They did not come in from elsewhere.

This is linked to the inner-city regeneration programme which we hope that the Government will introduce. If the inner cities are made the desirable places to live that they should and could be, policemen will not feel the need to live elsewhere and to education their children outside the local education authority concerned. If we tackle the inner-city problem, policemen will be happy to live in the communities in which they work.

§ Mr. David Tredinnick (Bosworth)

The hon. Lady seems to ignore the fact that the Metropolitan police have always been unable to recruit all their men from the neighbourhoods. That is why some have had to come in from outside. If they could have recruited them locally, perhaps they would have done so.

§ Mrs. Barnes

There is some merit in the hon. Gentleman's point. I have spoken at length to the local police authority on the matter, and I understand that one problem is not just attracting the police in the first place but keeping them in the inner cities as their careers progress. As they get older and their families grow up, there is a great temptation to move to police authorities where the problems are not so severe, life is at a more comfortable pace and housing is cheaper.

§ Mr. Terry Dicks (Hayes and Harlington)

rose——

§ Mrs. Barnes

I will have to carry on, or I will never get to the end of my speech.

The alliance has suggested some specific provisions to alleviate some of the problems, and I draw them to the attention of the Home Secretary. Our manifesto discussed what we called crime crisis areas, which should be defined by the police community liaison committees and the police authorities working with chief constables. Any chief constable could pinpoint the crisis areas with which he must deal. Several measures could be enacted to improve matters in those areas. Local police stations which have been closed should be reopened, or police posts could be made available where one or two policemen would always be stationed. As with many other aspects of life, police 1406 stations have become more centralised and the smaller local stations have closed. That is a mistake. People do not know where their police stations are. Stations are sometimes a long way from people's homes and people think that they can go there only to report a serious matter. They cannot pop in to discuss problems which could be nipped in the bud.

Many practical and fairly simple measures, including the provision of entryphones and security locks and better street lighting, could make life much easier for those who live in crime areas. Every local authority should be obliged to set up a crime prevention unit to advise people on the security of their homes and their general safety. Many Labour authorities could fund these by diverting money from their anti-police monitoring units. Money is available to fund police monitoring. Authorities should put that money into prevention, where it will have a positive purpose.

Another suggestion was to place a legal responsibility on British Telecom to maintain telephones in better working order than they are now. I hope that work is being done in this area. In areas of severe crime, where people are poor and do not have their own telephones, it is extremely important that they can get to a telephone when they need it and not, as happens now, go to the nearest four telephones and find them all out of order.

Hon. Members have also mentioned violent crime. In south-east London there has been a growing use of weapons, many of which are sold in martial arts shops. I have a list of them here, and I have never heard of some of these weapons. They include battle knives, knuckledusters, spike shoe straps and catapults. They are widely available. They have macho connotations and youngsters can pick up these weapons very easily. The temptation to use them then presents itself. Recently in south-east London there were two incidents of armed robbers being killed. They were examples of the serious intent to go out as armed robbers, but at the lower level those weapons are widely available. We must try to curb the use and sale of such weapons.

In one area, there is a direct correlation between unemployment and crime. It has been shown clearly that dependence on drugs or alcohol is far more prevalent among the unemployed, and the link between drug dependencey or alcoholism and crime is undisputed. We must consider the underlying causes and then the subsequent events. We are in a catch 22 situation: unless we tackle the underlying causes, our attempts to tackle the symptoms will be irrelevant.

I welcome the Government's commitment to inner-city regeneration and I hope that there will be serious changes. But their promises will be hollw without resources behind them. Anyone who spends any time examining the inner cities will know that good will, good intentions and the right words will not do. Housing is appalling and there has been a great deterioration in the fabric of the streets, lighting and pavements. Money must be spent on them. There is no sign as yet that the Government will back their claims on inner-city regeneration with the appropriate funds. Inner-city talk without inner-city money will mean nothing.

Conservative Members would be extremely disappointed if an alliance Member did not mention proportional representation. We are here only because the Home Secretary fulfils the role of police authority for the metropolis. There would be no need for anxiety about 1407 handing control of the policing of the metropolis to a properly elected police authority if it was elected by proportional representation, because any fear of extremism would be elminated.

§ Mr. William Shelton (Streatham)

It is with great pleasure that I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick). He is a worthy successor to our old friend Sir John Osborn. I was deeply impressed by the way in which he rebuked Opposition Members for their mumbling and grumbling while he made a speech which was slightly less than maiden in some aspects. He defended himself well by putting the knife into Opposition Members—although in the most delicate way—which bodes well for his future in the House.

I wish to raise two serious constituency problems. I am sure that the Minister will pay attention and that the Home Office will reach a solution for me. For once, these problems have nothing to do with additional resources. They relate to two flaws in the law that are stopping the police carrying out their duty. I should like the law to be changed to remove those flaws.

The first problem is that one of my wards in Streatham is infested with prostitutes. During the election my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary visited Streatham. I was fortunate enough to be able to introduce him to one of the policemen on the beat, who expounded strongly about the problem, and my right hon. Friend said that he would consider it. Indeed, I have written to him about it. I hope that my right hon. Friend will read the today's Hansard. So far this has been an interesting debate and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill) on introducing it.

One of the wards of my constituency is infested with prostitutes, and this is extremely disagreeable to the residents. There are many ladies on the streets and some 400 cars were clocked through in a two-hour period—400 cars cruising round and round.

The second problem in my constituency—it has already been mentioned—is the carrying of knives. This practice is becoming a spreading cancer in south London and the Government must act to do something about it. Today, about 35 per cent. of all robberies—the House is aware that a robbery is defined by the police as an attack in the street, a mugging—are carried out by youngsters carrying knives. Some 25 per cent. of such attacks in Streatham are carried out by youngsters. Knives also play a part in rape.

§ Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North)

Is my hon. Friend aware of the growing number of flick-knives that are being imported into the country? Day-trippers or those who are on holiday in France smuggle back such knives and give them to their friends. That poses a serious problem.

§ Mr. Shelton

My hon. Friend is quite right, and I shall return to that in a moment.

The hon. Member for Greenwich (Mrs. Barnes) mentioned knives that are bought in martial arts shops. Perhaps the sale of such knives from those shops should be outlawed, but it is a marginal problem. The other day I was talking to one of the police chief superintendents in my area. He asked me whether I would like to see the knives that the police had taken from people, mainly 1408 youngsters, in the past three months. He brought over a huge plastic sack, turned it out on the floor and 30 knives fell out. Only three of those knives were of the type that can be bought in martial arts shops. All the rest, most horrible looking, were kitchen knives. Admittedly some of those knives had been sharpened. Anyone can buy a steak knife, and it would put the fear of God in me and make me run like a madman if I saw it coming at me. If we ban the sale of martial arts knives—probably we should—the youngster will go to the kitchen, open the drawer, take out the steak knife and go off.

Fines imposed on women who ply their trade are in no way a deterrent. The average fine in Streatham is about £30–£35 per arrest and conviction. When a lady makes some £200–£300 a night, she is quite prepared to be arrested every so often and pay £30. That fine is absolutely no use.

Let us consider the measures introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Drake (Miss Fookes), what is now the Sexual Offences Act 1985, which is known as the kerb crawlers' Act. I hate to say this—I discussed the measure with my hon. Friend the Member for Drake last night—but the Act is ineffective. It does not work, because to get the Bill into law my hon. Friend had to allow the word "persistently" to be included. That word "persistently" means, according to the police officers of my constituency, that they cannot secure a conviction because they cannot show that the punter was persistently soliciting. If a kerb-crawler drives round and round, stops to pick up a girl and is then stopped by the police he can say, "I was not persistently soliciting. I just asked this girl to go for a ride with me." We must remove the word "persistently" from the Act. The Minister and the Home Office should consider whether what is occurring in Streatham is happening in other places. If that proves to be the case, when the next Criminal Justice Bill comes along—they seem to come along regularly every year—will the Minister please insert a one or two-line clause to remove the word "persistently" from the Sexual Offences Act and thus make it effective?

Section 1(1)(b) of the 1985 Act states that a man commits an offence if he causes nuisance to other persons in the neighbourhood. In Streatham we managed to obtain three convictions by getting about 30 residents to note down car registration numbers. The residents gave affidavits to the police, the motorists were stopped and they were convicted. It was a massive piece of work undertaken by the community. Convictions would be easier to secure if the word "persistently" was removed from the Act. For the sake of my constituents, who are living in the most unpleasant circumstances, I urge that something be done about this problem.

Incidentally, the local police in Streatham are taking legal advice as to whether they can write to people whose car registration numbers have been taken and ask why they were circulating round and round. Perhaps the Minister could look into that. I shall write to the Home Secretary to ask whether it is legal for the police to do that. I am sure that there must be some form of words that the police could use, and, with a bit of luck, the letter would be opened by the man's wife.

The second problem faced by my constituency is a cancer that is spreading across south London. It affects not only Brixton, but Streatham, Clapham and other parts 1409 of south London. The problem results from another failure in the law, and unless something is done this cancer will spread.

When the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984—PACE as it is known—was introduced, section 25, quite rightly—I am not arguing about this—put an end to the stop and search law, what is called the sus law. The police were no longer able to stop and search on suspicion. They had to have reasonable grounds for that suspicion. However, the result of PACE has meant far fewer people being stopped and searched. The police officer can no longer stop a person because he is suspicious of that person's actions. He must have factual evidence to show to the magistrate.

If youngsters carry knives, the police now have to show that a person carried a knife with unlawful intent. It is very difficult for the police to do that. These youngsters are street wise. If they are stopped and found to be in possession of a large knife and are asked why they have it, the usual answer is, "I have to fix a light plug and I need the knife to cut off the end of the flex." Youngsters have been told that they can get away with that answer. It is too much to expect the police to take a person to court and show the unlawful intention of a suspect. How can a policeman do that?

The other day the Streatham police got a man for burglary. That man had on him 52 lock knives. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) mentioned flick-knives. With a flick-knife, the blade comes out when one presses a button; with a lock knife the knife is locked open. That man had 52 such knives in his possession. The police were unable to prosecute him for having those 52 knives. However, they did get him for the burglary.

The police took the 52 knives away, although they believed that they were probably acting improperly in doing so. I asked why that man had 52 knives in his possession. I was told that such knives are sold or lent to youngsters. Youngsters do a job, throw the knife away and go back to that guy, with his sack of 52, for another one. Something must be done about this. What can we do?

We cannot bring back the sus law. We must return to the position that we had under the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952, which obtains today in cases in which people have been convicted on drugs charges. Their money is taken away from them, unless they can show that they possess it lawfully. In the case of carrying knives, the person who is arrested and taken before a magistrate must be able to show that he was carrying the knife with lawful intent. It should not be for the police to prove that the person is carrying the knife with unlawful intent; the police cannot do that. If a guy has 52 lock knives on him, or an 8in steak knife on him, at 2 o'clock in the morning, he will have to show the magistrate why he had those knives. If he cannot do so, he should be convicted. It should not be for the police to show that he was earring the knife with unlawful intent. There is no way in which the police can do that. They are not mindreaders or hypnotists. We should reverse the burden of proof in cases involving knives.

§ Mr. Ivan Lawrence (Burton)

Why does my hon. Friend think that there will be more convictions, either before magistrates or juries, merely because the burden of proof is shifted?

§ Mr. Shelton

I recognise that my hon. and learned Friend knows far more about the law than I do. My answer is that a guy may have 52 lock knives on him, but the police cannot prove unlawful intent, because he says that he bought them the other day to take to his shop to sell, and the police cannot even prosecute him. On the other hand, if he had to show why it was perfectly right and proper for him to be doing that at 2 o'clock in the morning—in other words, that he had lawful possession and no evil intent—he would find that rather difficult to do before a magistrate. For example, an 18-year-old is stopped with a steak knife sticking out of his trouser pocket at 2 o'clock in the morning. He says that he is going to repair a flex, and at the time the police must accept that. However, if the burden were the other way round and he told the magistrate that he was going to repair a flex, the magistrate would say that he did not believe him and would find him guilty. Something must be done, and if my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Burton (Mr. Lawrence) has a better suggestion I should like to hear it. What I am suggesting would at least be a big step forward.

I see that my hon. Friend the Minister is taking advice from his Department on the points that I have been making. I ask him to examine the problem of prostitution and the use of the word "persistently" in the Sexual Offences Act 1985. I also ask him to look at the whole problem of knives, with a view to changing the law to lay the burden on the knife carrier. If the law is changed for knives—and here I am stretching things a bit—it might also apply to kerb crawlers. I see no reason why, if a man drives 30 times around a certain street at ten o'clock at night, he should not have to show why he was doing that, rather than police having to show that he was intending to solicit and causing a nuisance to neighbours. That might work in that case, too. The balance is wrong, and I want the Home Office to put it right.

§ Mr. Paul Boateng (Brent, South)

As a newcomer, may I add a word of congratulation to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick), who threatens to take on allcomers. He is at all times very bullish, very Ollie North. We look forward to his future speeches in the House with great anticipation.

As a newcomer to the House like me, the hon. Gentleman will have been shown on the day that he arrived the pieces of red tape that hang beneath our coat hangers. When I asked what they were for, I was told that they were for our swords—for the weapons of men who, in generations gone by, found it necessary to hang up their weapons before they came in for fear that they might be tempted to use them in this place. We have now reached such a state in many of our inner cities that we will soon have to provide similar pieces of equipment in all places of public resort for young people, so much has this whole knife culture infiltrated our society. So many young people now carry knives as a matter of course. We must consider that seriously in the course of the debate. We must consider knives, the issue of drugs and the prevalence of a drug culture. We must also consider the prevalence of racial harassment. Those three things are a blot on the enforcement and maintenance of safety and security in our inner cities. We in this House and those in the wider community need to come up with some answers.

I cannot see any answer to those problems that does not involve a co-ordinated and—so far as is possible— 1411 unified approach by central Government—the legislative process—local government and the communities that they represent, and the police. Only in that way will we begin to be able to tackle the three significant problems that face us in inner city policing. If we tackle one of them but not the others, we are doomed to failure. Merely to call for more law will not in itself be enough. We need more than that.

The Government must take a lead. In recent years there has been welcome legislation enabling us to trace and recoup the ill-gotten gains of the drug barons. It was welcome and important legislation. However, there is and must be a role for central Government in attacking and seeking to come to grips with the culture and the set of social and economic circumstances that underpin the use of drugs and perpetuate the drug problem in all too many of our inner cities.

We need to examine the work that has been done in the United States and in mainland Europe—in Holland in particular—with addicts and with those who are likely to fall prey to drug abuse. We must begin that process in the schools. We must begin to educate people about the dangers and evils of drug abuse. That cannot be done merely by making speeches. It needs careful attention, and, above all, it needs resources, just as we need resources for the communities in sink housing estates and dead end roads, where all too often drug abuse takes place.

We need the resources to tackle such issues and the Government have a role to play in them. They also have a role to play in the problem of racial harassment. We in this House must make it crystal clear—I welcome the response of hon. Members in an earlier intervention on that issue—that racial harassment will not be tolerated. We must recognise that when we use language such as "swamping" and "alien wedge" we give a licence to those who try to perpetuate racial harassment in our communities. We have a special responsibility to guard what we say in these areas and to promote positive images of our multi-cultural society.

§ Mr. Dicks

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that some of the ethnic minorities in our inner cities are white people who suffer racial harassment from coloured and black people?

§ Mr. Boeteng

Sadly, that is a typical intervention by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Dicks). He should examine the Home Office statistics about street attacks. They clearly show that Asians in his constituency stand 50 times more chance than whites of being the subject of a street attack, and that black people stand 36 times more chance of being attacked on the street than whites. I condemn racial attacks from wherever they come and the hon. Gentleman ought not to seek to make such a point.

We should look at the responsibility of Government for coping with the problem of knives. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Shelton) touched on that. I have a certain amount of scepticism about his proposals for legislative change, but I recognise the spirit in which they were made. Clearly something has to be done, but what? I recognise the drafting problems in this area, but I hope that the Government will give urgent attention to dealing with the problem of the supply of knives at source. We must extend the definition of weapons that are regarded as offensive per se.

1412 The hon. Member for Greenwich (Mrs. Barnes) said that there was a problem about martial arts supply shops. She is right about that and that problem must be addressed. It is capable of being dealt with by legislation and it must be dealt with urgently.

Those are three areas in which the Government need to act. The other two sides of the triangle are the local authorities and the communities they represesnt, and the police. No one who cares about crime prevention believes that it is healthy or useful for the police, the local authorities and the people that they represent to be apart. We want to see them working effectively in a co-ordinated way. However, we must recognise the blocks and the obstructions that exist.

One of the great difficulties under which we labour in London is not shared by the hon. Member for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill), who rightly wants to keep hold of his directly elected police authority. We in London want to have a police authority to hold on to. We recognise that such a directly elected police authority will provide a forum through which it will be possible to create effective crime prevention measures.

I watched the face of the hon. Member for Davyhulme and noted his body language during the course of the speech by his hon. Friend the Member for Hallam. The hon. Member for Hallam spoke at great length about the evils of Left-wing councils whose aim is to take over the police. He spoke about the sinister conspiracy that is supposed to exist to undermine policing and the terrible dangers of political policing. The hon. Member for Davyhulme was remarkably quiet during that speech. Was that because he recollected the example set by his right hon. and gallant grandfather? I wonder if he remembered his grandfather's role as Home Secretary. The people in the Welsh valleys have not forgotten it. What he said and did there could hardly by regarded as apolitical.

To pretend that the Home Secretary, in his role as the police authority, is not political, is nonsense. Perhaps the hon. Member for Davyhulme was remembering his right hon. and gallant grandfather's role in the siege of Sidney street. The hon. Gentleman should think about that. When one reflects on that incident in 1911 and looks at Hansard for that period, one sees that the Home Secretary was in the thick of it. He was not at the siege only for the purposes of a photo call. He was there to be part of the action arid was involved in the operation. As Mr. Lyttelton said at the time, he was there giving

some advice with regard to the firing".—[Official Report, 26 June 1911; Vol. 27, c. 248.] That is the sort of advice that we should like to give in Greater London. We are anxious to see the police doing a little less firing and would like to see fewer incidents involving the likes of Mrs. Cherry Groce. We do not want day-to-day operational control or to tell the police who to shoot or when to shoot, but we would like to have an overview of policy. That is right, and therein lies the difficulty. That is not political interference.

§ Mr. Tredinnick

If the hon. Gentleman is so anxious to have some influence on the police in London, why has he taken a stance absolutely against the police consultative groups set up under the Scarman arrangements and the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984?

§ Mr. Boateng

The reverse is true. We want to see effective community participation in policing strategy, but we do not see those consultative groups offering any real 1413 hope, of achieving that. Were they to do so, we would embrace them with open arms. They are mere talking shops that do not enable the police and the community to come together in terms of equality. That is another way, and we intend to pursue it because we are anxious to see more effective police operations.

§ Mr. Stuart Holland (Vauxhall)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Members for Bosworth (Mr. Tredinnick) and for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill) overlook the fact that at local borough level there is effective cooperation with the police? In the London borough of Lambeth there has been such co-operation about drug raids, an anti-knives campaign and child abuse. There has also been co-operation in the case about which the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Shelton) spoke of kerb-crawling in Becmead avenue. The leader of Lambeth council has been down to see what is happening there and to support the action taken by the police.

§ Mr. Boateng

Similar examples could be given about Brent and about boroughs all over London where good positive work is being dome. It is important that we recognise that. We must not get away from the responsibilities of communities in terms of policing. We can and must improve the law in relation to knives and the Government must take initiatives about drug abuse and racial harassment. Communities must identify these things as problems and isolate those who seek to peddle drugs and those who seek to make large sums of money out of the misery that drugs cause. They must deter those who seek to carry knives as a matter of course and who encourage other young people to carry them.

We must do to those who seek to perpetrate racial harassment what must be done. We must say to all such groups, "This is not on in our community." We must tell them that we do not intend to stand by and make excuses for them or to allow them to get away with it. Such people must be told that there is no place for them in our community. If there is not a willingness to isolate these forms of virulent anti-social behaviour, whatever laws are passed and whatever powers are given to the police we will not solve the problems.

One lesson that we have learnt over the past eight or nine years is that simply throwing power at the police does not work. That can be seen from the figures. We have to do more than that, but if we are to get the community behind us and to recognise the importance of supporting operations designed to deal with these problems, the operations themselves must be devised with community support. They must recognise the need for a degree of sensitivity. I am afraid that that is not always shown in the course of devising and implementing such operations. One has only to look at operation Trident in west London. That involves surrounding All Saints road, and it has been going on for several weeks. It has had the effect of alienating portions of the community across the board that cannot be defined by colour or age because of the way that it has been carried out, the numbers who are involved and the strategy that has been adopted. It has led to a situation in which the overwhelming weight and oppressiveness of the police presence has cause resentment and ill feeling at a time when it should be possible to 1414 mobilise support and feeling against those drug pushers who have come from outside the community to peddle their wares in All Saints road.

We should be encouraging the responsible elements in the community that exist in the Mango community association so that they feel that they are equal partners in the fight against that insidious form of crime and the development of that street. The street should not be flooded every night with droves of police officers. They have got it wrong, but it need not have been so if they had involved themselves in genuine consultation and had there been a structure in London whereby it would be possible actively to support and garner public support for police operations. That is what an elected police authority should provide.

Even at this late stage we look to the Government to do something about that. If they are not prepared to do it, they should at least follow the advice and recommendations of their Home Office working parties. In 1983 I had the privilege and pleasure of sitting in the Home Office with a wide cross-section of people who were concerned about training. We were a working party of the Home secretary's council on police training. It included the man who is to become Lord Knight, who made a particularly distinguished contribution. He has recently been elevated to the other place, and I am sure that, with his experience of the west midlands, he will make a contribution there.

The working committee made a number of recommendations about police training. What has happened to those recommendations? I fear that they are gathering dust on the shelves of the Home Office. At every stage in a police officer's career, up to the level of superintendant, there should be training in community and race relations. The success or otherwise of an officer in responding to that training should be regarded as an example of his effectiveness. That would involve resources, but it was a good idea. We had a united committee; we did not disagree on any of our conclusions. We want action because, if the Government are not prepared to give way on constitutional issues, they can give way on practical policies on which there is unanimity. By working together within the constitutional framework and with a recognition of our respective roles, there is hope of tackling some of the policing problems in our inner cities. We need to do that, and we need to do it now.

§ Mr. Chris Butler (Warrington, South)

I was selected for my constituency on the Ides of March, a fateful day, this year. My relationship with my constituency has been a whirlwind romance. I find myself in this place with an increased Conservative vote, which is in no small measure a tribute to my predecessor, Mark Carlisle, who served his area for some 23 years. I am sure that he will be remembered with respect and affection by hon. Members.

My constituency runs in a broad sweep around from the tiny independent parish of Cuerdley through the new town of Runcorn, which is afflicted with all the inner-city problems that we see around our country, including those of crime, to the semi-rural charms of Appleton and Lymm.

The history of Warrington, South and Warrington has been carved largely by water. It was originally founded by the Romans, because it was the first place that they found to ford the River Mersey. The Manchester ship canal, 1415 which is a tremendous tribute to the early entrepreneural spirit of our country, bisects my constituency and Warrington itself.

I did not emphasise water to demonstrate that the present Member suffers from rising damp, nor to demonstrate that my constituents are watery; indeed, they are fired with dynamism at the moment. GM Health Care is constructing a hospital in my constituency. Recently, it wrote to me saying: We are developing in Warrington-Runcorn because it is experiencing the most dynamic and commercial growth in the north of England. That is not puff, but commercial hard-headedness, backed by the welcome figures for unemployment that we announced yesterday.

On 11 June this country had an opportunity to vote on the economic benefits that have been brought by Thatcherism and on the economic policies of the Government. The verdict was plain, but, as the economic benefits become more visiable and apparent, the deeper social problems that are inherent in our country become more evident. These deeper social problems essentially concern the responsibility that we owe to one another as citizens. It falls to this Conservative Government to resolve some of those deeper social problems with the kind of energy, commitment and resolution that the country has come to expect of them.

One of the most prominent examples of those problems is the growth in crime. It was referred to last Friday in a speech at Oxford by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Mr. Patten) as: One of the greatest shortcomings of public policy. As I canvassed at the general election, the verdict on the Government of many of my constituents was that they could do better. As I was canvassing and wearing out shoe leather, two things struck me forcefully. There were an enormous number of dogs in the constituency, with all the attendant risks that that has for one's fingers and footwear. I noticed that in all the areas of my constituency from the inner city to the leafy suburbs, there were those little home watch scheme triangles in the windows. As I was trying to preach a message to my constituents, I realised that in fact they were giving me a message. The message was that they felt besieged in their homes by crime. To a certain extent they felt let down by their Government, and they had begun to deal with the problem by using their own resources.

I have not just crawled out from underneath a gooseberry bush, and I am not so naive as to think that the answer to the problem lies solely in more effective policing or in increasing the power of our criminal justice system, but that is part of the answer. More can and must be done to relieve the police of petty bureaucracy. I am in favour of more emphasis being placed on the civilianisation of our police forces and on the tape recording of evidence. More must and can be done for the police to enable them to concentrate on serious crime, rather than on petty offenders such as the motorist. I sympathise with the ordinary, law-abiding motorist who is tootling along on a clear road at 35 mph, but who finds himself pounced on, fined and frightened by the police. Yet the very next week, when he is mugged in an inner-city street, he cannot find a policeman for love nor money.

More can and must be done to restore the awful majesty of our criminal justice system, which depends essentially upon its deterrent power. That is why I personally support 1416 the reintroduction of the ultimate deterrent. It is also why I support the call so common among my constituents for sentences to mean what they say more than they do at present.

Having had the honour of serving on the local review committee of both Holloway and Pentonville prisons for some years, I have reached the mature view that both remission and parole are too freely given. Remission, which takes up to one third off the sentence, is too automatic. A prisoner has to do something pretty dreadful in prison to lose more than a few days of that remission. Parole can and often does provide up to a further one third off the sentence. It is supposed to be a privilege earned by good behaviour in prison, but sadly that is not the case, due to one very powerful argument that is used on local review committees. It is argued that it is far better for the criminal, having served part of his sentence, to go out into the community under supervision for a few months than to go out at the end of the sentence, less remission, without any supervision at all. That is a powerful argument., but it seems crazy that the Parole Board or the judges have no power, because I do believe in the principle of parole, to insist on some period of supervision during the period of remission or even afterwards.

In my view, it is sad that parole is not given on merit, but is given too automatically. The situation finds its greatest absurdity in what are known as the schedule 33 cases, in which members of the local review committee are given skimpy, inadequate notes and cannot possibly form a rounded view about the inmate concerned. As there is always a presumption in favour of parole in these cases, the committee ends up operating virtually as a rubber stamp.

Schedule 33 was devised as a means of emptying our prisons, and it certainly does so, But I strongly object to the application of that kind of attitude to the vast bulk of parole applications. Sadly, we are allowing the size of our prison population to dictate our criminal justice and penal policies. It is a case of the tail wagging the dog, and it should not be so. I had hoped and prayed that we would escape from that problem when we embarked on the greatest prison building programme this century., involving 20 new prisons, and it was with dismay that I heard my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announce yesterday his intention to free a further 3,500 or more prisoners by relaxing the remission provisions still further. I believe that that will dilute the deterrence of our criminal justice system. I ask my right hon. Friend to think again and to use his ingenuity to commission secure accommodation. I welcome the involvement of the private sector in the design and building of prisons, but more could be done. If the private sector were involved in the running of prisons, many of the staffing problems could be overcome.

I warmly welcome the Government's commitment to review the parole system. By a happy coincidence, the chairman of the review body will be my predecessor. the Right Hon. Mark Carlisle. I hope that that review will re-emphasise the proper purposes of parole and recommend against misuse of the parole provisions to make life easy for the prison service. We must return to the original intention that parole should be earned by good behaviour in prison and a good response to the penal regime.

I urge the Government to listen to the man in the street—not the hoary old prejudices of Tonypandy or Sidney street that we heard from the hon. Member for Brent, 1417 South (Mr. Boateng)—because the ordinary man in the street is imbued with hearty good sense. If our criminal justice system is weakened by failure to present an effective deterrent, the criminal will expand his activities and the respect that we have in this place and respect for our pillars of justice will be undermined, as will the good will of the ordinary citizen on which the power and authority of this place ultimately depend.

§ Mr. Roy Hattersley (Birmingham, Sparkbrook)

I have already apologised to the Minister for having to leave before the end of the debate. I hope that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and the House will accept my apology with similar understanding.

My next, rather more pleasant, task is to congratulate, on behalf of the Opposition, the hon. Members for Warrington, South (Mr. Butler) and for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Patnick). Both spoke with a clarity, certainty and confidence which more established Members will envy. It is not a cliché, perhaps too often repeated, when I say that I have no doubt that the House will look forward to hearing from them many times in the future, not least because both avoided the a