Foreign Affairs

§ The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Geoffrey Howe)

It is five months since the House last had a full debate on foreign affairs, and obviously much has happened since then on which I could report to the House. However, I propose to begin with the most recent event.

Last Monday, the Foreign Ministers of the Twelve European countries meeting in London under my chairmanship, agreed, following Syria's plain involvement in the Hindawi affair, on four measures to be taken against that country: no new arms sales, no high-level visits to or from Syria, close controls on Syrian diplomatic and consular missions, and tighter security surrounding Syrian Arab Airlines' operations.

Even a few years ago, such effective agreement among so many countries would have been unthinkable. Today it is a reality, and a striking demonstration of the value of political co-operation with our Community partners. There is probably no other area where joint international action is more valuable than in the fight against terrorism. Decisions reached at the London and Tokyo summits and by the European Community earlier this year have begun to forge an effective weapon against international terrorism. Her Majesty's Government have played a central role in securing those decisions.

We have more than once found ourselves in the front line. This happened when Woman Police Constable Fletcher was shot down so outrageously outside the Libyan People's bureau and when Hindawi was arrested while trying to blow up an airliner that was carrying 400 passengers. In these two instances, the responsibility of the Libyan and Syrian authorities was clear beyond doubt, and in each case our response was plainly justified. In both instances, our decision to sever diplomatic relations received widespread domestic and international support. The Government are determined to deal decisively with states that sponsor terrorism.

This does not preclude contacts with those who may be able to help secure the release of hostages. We remain deeply concerned about the two British hostages in Lebanon, Alec Collett and John McCarthy, as well as Brian Keenan, the dual Irish-British citizen. Our hearts go 222 out to them and their relatives, who do not know, any more than we do, whether they are alive or dead. We are doing what we can to secure their freedom, if they are still alive, while maintaining the principle of no substantive concessions.

At a meeting of the 12 Interior Ministers on 25 September, the so-called Trevi group, our Community partners reaffirmed their determination not to make concessions to terrorists. That is a commitment to which we attach much importance. In our view concessions lead to more hostage taking, not less. This Government will not do deals with terrorists for the release of hostages. This is not an easy policy to follow—sometimes it is agonizing—but it is right.

This is all the more reason to sustain our efforts to promote a settlement in the middle east. We are keeping up the search for a way in which the parties may be brought together in the peace talks. We are also giving practical help to people suffering from the failure to reach a settlement. We are among the largest contributors to the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees. We are giving more aid to the occupied territories. We proposed the recent European Community initiative for an improved aid programme for the occupied territories and for preferential access for their agricultural and industrial products in the European Community market. We all want a negotiated settlement to bring peace to the middle east. Terrorist violence does not bring it closer. Instead, it sets it back.

That maxim applies to the middle east and to another area where I have been closely engaged on a matter of European political co-operation. This has been in my important mission, on behalf of the Twelve in July, to southern Africa. My task was to visit countries in the region and, in particular, to urge the South African Government to summon up the courage to bring apartheid to an end, to urge them to make the great leap forward that is necessary and to begin a genuine dialogue with black leaders, freely chosen and free to take part.

As the House knows, the South African Government remained obdurate. That being so, the seven Commonwealth Heads of Government who met in London in early August, including my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, concluded that further action was required. In September, together with our partners in the Community, we decided on certain new measures, both positive and restrictive, designed to bring home to the South African Government the need to move from repression towards dialogue.

Since then, alas, President Machel's tragic death has inevitably heightened tensions in the region. What is needed now is time for his successor, President Chissano, to promote the stability of Mozambique. It is certainly not in anyone's interest that relations between South Africa and its neighbours should slide into out-and-out confrontation and economic warfare, least of all if that offers fresh openings for the Soviet Union and its friends.

Political co-operation on issues of this sort has been an important aspect of our presidency. On the international trade front too, the Community has been able under our leadership to take some crucial steps. These include launching the new Uruguay GATT round, starting action in the GATT to bring down Japanese non-tariff barriers to trade, beginning with whisky and other alcoholic drinks, and reaching agreements with the United States on steel, pasta and citrus products.

223 This week we have achieved a radical reform of the Community's food aid programme to developing countries, to cut out waste and help the programme meet their needs, and above all to respond to emergencies more quickly. Within the Community we are pressing ahead with practical measures to set up the largest market place in the world. We are seeking to knock away, one by one, the rules and regulations which limit competition in Europe, so that goods, services and people can circulate freely. We are getting good results with real benefits to our citizens.

§ Mr. Denis Healey (Leeds, East)

What about air fares?

§ Sir Geoffrey Howe

The right hon. Gentleman asks, quite rightly, about air fares. I am delighted to hear him pressing that question. It reflects an acceptance of the principle of liberal, competitive conditions and a recognition—

§ Mr. Healey

The Government have not secured an agreement in practice on air fares in Europe.

§ Sir Geoffrey Howe

Come along and help us. We shall be delighted to have the support of the Opposition. No one will cheer more loudly than 1 on hearing the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues proclaiming the virtues of free market competition. These are the principles that we have applied to the liberalisation of coach transport in Britain, in the teeth of opposition from Opposition Members. These are the principles that we are applying to bus transport, again in the teeth of opposition from Opposition Members. If they have now repented their foolish opposition, we shall be glad to cheer. Let them acknowledge the importance of what we have achieved in Europe.

There is a substantial majority already in favour of the liberalisation of seat and route allocations. There is not complete liberalisation, but we are on the way. This is within the Community that the Labour party so long opposed. It is within the Community that we have been able to achieve this headway. We are getting good results with real benefits to our citizens. We are helping business and stimulating jobs. Our latest initiative is a Communitywide strategy for helping small businesses and encouraging training.

We are ensuring that the removal of obstacles to trade and tourism is matched by common action against terrorists, drug traffickers, passport forgers and others who seek to abuse the openness of our societies. Again, thanks to United Kingdom initiatives, there will be more pooling of intelligence, a police hot line, a seven-point action plan on drugs, and more co-operation on visas. That is the sort of protectionism that we want.

The British people increasingly understand and value these facts. They see that the United Kingdom's future lies with a prosperous and united Europe, and that is the Government's objective. That is in contrast to the policies of the Labour party. I use the word "policies" loosely in that context, because identifying the Labour approach to the Community is a task which would defeat the most skilful political sleuth. I find myself driven to cite no less an authority than Mr. Alf Lomas, the leader of that body of distinguished men and women who are Labour's Members of the European Parliament.

§ Mr. Healey

The Thatcher of the Labour Party.

§ Sir Geoffrey Howe

The right hon. Gentleman may call Mr. Lomas what he likes. There are many interesting observations to be made about Labour's Members of the European Parliament. So many of them are symbols of the underlying unity of the Labour Party. For example, Mr. Les Huckfield arrived triumphantly from Strasbourg to represent his party in Knowsley, North. He was dismissed by Labour's national executive committee. I choose these witnesses with some care, and even the Labour Party has to handle these people with long tongs.

I have referred to Mr. Alf Lomas, who recently argued that Labour's policies for state control and direction of industry and finance, and for protectionism, would be incompatible with Community obligations. He ended with a call which I am happy to support, as I am sure is the entire House. He said: We call upon the Labour Party to determine, with a clarity which does not at present exist, its policy towards our continued membership of the European Communities. I have been speaking, of course, of co-operation in Europe, but let us remember that this kind of co-operation is taking place in only one half of the continent. In the West, the process of economic integration is proceeding within what is undoubtedly the most effective international legal framework for upholding human rights in world history. By contrast, eastern Europe remains gripped by a Soviet-imposed system. Some countries have tried to assert their individuality, and we all know the results. This year is the 30th anniversary of the Hungarian uprising, which was brutally crushed by a Russian military invasion. It is the 25th anniversary of the building of the Berlin wall. The Prague spring was another authentic popular move towards freedom and democracy. It was crushed in 1968. In Poland, the Solidarity mass movement was beaten down by martial law in 1981.

Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union are falling behind the rest of Europe. Their economies can barely pay their way, they cannot feed their people, and they are ill placed to adapt to new technologies which depend on free flows of people, ideas and information. This is the setting in which Mr. Gorbachev is proclaiming his ambitions for greater openness and more critical debate. These are, perhaps, hopeful signs. But they have yet to lead to any measurable improvement in the lives of his people.

It is that yawning gap between words and deeds that I underlined in my speech on behalf of the European Community at last week's opening of the Vienna conference on security and co-operation in Europe. A copy of the speech has been placed in the Library. That is why, during the Vienna conference, we shall he pressing the Soviet Union and her allies to live up to the international standards on human rights to which they have subscribed. It is their failure to live up the Helsinki commitments that inevitably impairs our confidence in their readiness to stand by their obligations in other areas. So too must the Soviet Union's appetite for military expansion. This can be—and in Europe since World War 2 has been—deterred. But, again by contrast, let us look at what has happened since 1979 in Afghanistan.

Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Afghans have been killed. Four million Afghans have been driven from their country — almost half the world's total refugee population. Some people try to explain away this terrible story. Let me recall what George Orwell said:— the awful thing about actrocities is that they happen, even though the Daily Telegraph says they do. 225 As Afghanistan and the fate of eastern Europe since World 2 demonstrate, the Soviet Union will use its vast military might against countries which cannot defend themselves. For all the "new thinking" in Gorbachev's Soviet Union, for all the skilful presentation and dramatic initiatives, the facts of the East-West division remain basically the same. The Soviet Union talks far more about peace and disarmament, but, in practice, it has not stopped steadily building up its already massive forces. Any party which refuses to face up to that fact cannot be trusted with the defence of the United Kingdom. Yet if, unlike so many right hon. and hon. Members opposite, one starts from a clear recognition of those facts, it is possible to make progress.

In September we saw the welcome conclusion of the Stockholm conference — the first major East-West agreement on security issues for years. The House is aware of the details of the agreements reached, especially those measures which provide for notification, inspection and verification of troop manoeuvres. Once again, the United Kingdom played a leading part in bringing about those agreements.

I suggest that two lessons can be drawn from that successful conference: First, that the safe and sure way to progress is by careful, patient negotiation; and, secondly, to the extent that they are not irrelevant, unilateral gestures are likely to be destabilising and damaging. Indeed, these truths are now well established in all categories of arms control negotiations. The fact that the Reykjavik meeting between Mr. Reagan and Mr. Gorbachev improved the prospects for significant cuts in the super-powers' nuclear arsenals gives these basic principles extra significance.

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister leaves today for important talks with President Reagan, which will concentrate on East-West issues. As she explained to the House on Wednesday, we see the following arms control areas as particularly promising. Efforts should continue towards an early INF agreement on the basis of the outline suggested at Reykjavik. The Russians should not back away from their earlier commitment to a separate INF deal by insisting now on linking INF with SDI. On strategic systems, work should proceed towards 50 per cent. cuts. We have always supported that idea. It would be a dramatic step forward. On chemical weapons, the need is to achieve an effective global ban as soon as possible. This, too, is a field in which the United Kingdom has taken important initiatives on verification.

However, it seems that Mr. Gorbachev is now trying to make progress of any sort depend on progress on SDI. He wants a super-restrictive interpretation—more probably a revision—of the ABM treaty, and a veto over any future deployments before questions about their feasibility are answered. This approach carefully overlooks the Russians' own activities in these areas. The United Kingdom continues to support research within the restrictive interpretation of the ABM treaty.

Among all the technicalities and complexities of these issues we must not lose sight of the really basic point, which is that nuclear weapons have prevented any war in Europe for the past 40 years. As successive Governments have acknowledged — I emphasise "successive Governments" — the United Kingdom's own nuclear capability has been essential both to give our country 226 security and to deter nuclear blackmail. While the Soviet Union and its Warsaw pact allies retain a massive superiority in conventional forces and chemical weapons, we must keep our nuclear deterrent. It would be folly indeed to abandon nuclear weapons and so make Europe safe for conventional or chemical warfare.

This Government take a consistent and sensible approach to these questions. We insist that our defences should be maintained, but we are also ready for dialogue with the Soviet Union and eastern Europe. We believe that such contacts allow us to influence the Soviet leadership and, gradually, to build up co-operation. The Soviet leadership for its part acknowledges that the United Kingdom can make an important contribution to greater confidence between East and West and a more stable and secure world.

§ Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood)

On the important point of arms control, will my right hon. and learned Friend revert to the INF question and address himself to the issue of whether it is wise to go for a zero-zero option at this time in view of the fact that the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, West Germany and ourselves have gone through a painstaking political process to gain acceptance for the deployment of ground-launched cruise missiles and Pershing 2s? Since we began to deploy in 1983, the Soviets have built up substantial short-range ballistic missiles—SS21s, SS22s and SS23s—in eastern Europe.

§ Sir Geoffrey Howe

There is no doubt about the legitimacy of going for a zero-zero INF deal, but my hon. Friend is quite right to draw attention to the parallel importance of short-range intermediate nuclear weapons. It is important that any INF deal should contain a constraint that deals with those. Subject to that, which has been made clear many times, the basic INF zero-zero option remains a legitimate one. It is in pursuit of such objectives that I followed through my earlier meetings with Mr. Gorbachev and President Gromyko by meeting Mr. Shevardnadze three times this year to discuss arms control, human rights and regional issues.

That is why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be visiting the Soviet Union on Mr. Gorbachev's personal invitation in the first half of next year. The General Secretary respects the Prime Minister precisely because she is not weak, or ready to surrender Britain's interests, but because she combines firmness in our national defence with patience and creativity in negotiation. [Interruption.] That is indeed the case.

At the very moment when years of patient diplomacy to bring the Russians to the negotiating table are starting to pay off, with substantial new agreements in sight in different areas, the Opposition propose that we should throw in our cards. It is not as if one-sided disarmament is a new idea, or has not already been tested. If we look at the record we see that, between 1972 and 1979, the United States exercised one-sided restraint on new strategic nuclear systems, deploying none. The Russian response was to introduce no fewer than six new ballistic missiles or missile systems. Over the same period, NATO deployed no new nuclear forces in Europe which could reach the Soviet Union. The Russian response was to introduce the Backfire bomber and the mobile SS20 missile.

Perhaps most striking of all, in the late 1950s, Britain gave up all its chemical weapons. The United States has 227 had a 17-year moratorium on the production of chemical weapons. What has been the Soviet response? It has been a massive build-up of no less than 300,000 tonnes of nerve agents alone — of chemical weapons capacity — which seriously threatens Western security. It must be said again and again that one-sided disarmament has been repeatedly tried, and it has repeatedly failed.

That must be contrasted with the experience of recent years. In 1978, the NATO Alliance decided to respond to the Soviet build-up by deploying Pershing 2 and cruise in Europe— the very point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip—Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson). In spite of a massive propaganda compaign, the European allies illustrated their determination to implement that decision. What has been the result? The Russians have committed themselves to significant arms reductions and have engaged in serious negotiations. It is difficult to believe that, at precisely this point in history, any major Western party committed to the survivial of our pluralist democratic society, not to mention peace and disarmament, would try to pull the rug out from under the NATO position. Yet that is precisely what the Labour party would do.

The British people will not fall for that, any more than they will fall for Soviet propaganda. They will not accept the hollow and naive policy of the Labour party. They will not he willing for Britain to renounce our nuclear weapons for nothing in return — nothing, that is, apart from smashing the Western Alliance which has underpinned our freedom for 40 years.

Her Majesy's Government will continue to pursue a measured but determined approach to foreign policy issues. We shall not give away something for nothing and so put the United Kingdom's defence at risk. We shall continue to work for confidence between the Soviet Union and the United Kingdom. But we shall not take that confidence for granted. Leadership and consistency will remain the hallmarks of our policy. We shall continue to promote Britain's interests. We shall continue to do what is necessary. We shall continue to do what is right.

§ Mr. Denis Healey (Leeds, East)

The Foreign Secretary reminded us that it is five months since the House debated international affairs. In his rather flaccid speech, I do not think he did justice to the fact that, during those five months, the shape of international affairs has been transformed. The summit meeting at Reykjavik produced what his American colleague, Mr. Shultz, called "breathtaking" progress on disarmament, even though final agreement was not reached. In that period—the Foreign Secretary did not refer to this, either — the United States Congress overrode the presidential veto and imposed on South Africa economic sanctions which go far beyond what the Prime Minister would allow the Commonwealth or the European Community to impose. Despite her opposition in principle to what she calls punitive sanctions, the Prime Minister has imposed punitive economic sanctions against Syria. In fact, the Foreign Secretary has just taken credit for that decision. I only hope that the precedent which has been set for Syria will be applied in other areas, such as South Africa, which are equally important to world peace.

I find it difficult to share the rosy picture painted by the Foreign Secretary of international progress in dealing with terrorism. In the past few weeks, we heard Prime Minister 228 Chirac of France and President Reagan of the United States refuse to follow the example set by Her Majesty's Government on Syria. We now find that President Reagan has been sending arms to Iran in the hope of securing the release of American hostages. The Foreign Secretary rightly denounced that practice, but he did not have the courage to refer to the issue to which this is most relevant at present.

The Khomeini Government in Iran are not only a sell-confessed sponsor of international terrorism but are the main enemy of all western interests in the middle east. Yesterday, President Reagan told the world that he engaged in bargaining with this regime in Iran at the very moment he asked the British Prime Minister to make British bases available for the bombing of Tripoli, and he made speeches on American television in which he put Iran first among the countries that are sponsoring international terrorism.

The French Prime Minister told the Washington Star News last week that he and the German Government believe that the Hindawi affair was not the responsibility of the Syrian Government but was a provocation organised by Israeli intelligence. In his interview with the Washington Star News, he even suggested that that provocation might have had some support from British intelligence, too.

I ask the Foreign Secretary to clear up one matter. From what he said, we understand that the British Government had their own evidence, which did not come out in the court case against Hindawi, about the involvement of the Syrian Government. We have all read a report in The Times which quotes a security source in Whitehall as saying that telephone tapping and bugging of the Syrian embassy has been going on for two years. That is an extraordinary statement to be made to a British newspaper by an agent of the British security services. What are the Government doing about it? They have despatched to Australia the famous camera-toting Secretary to the Cabinet to bully the Australian Government into refusing to allow an MI5 agent to publish a book about what M15 did 20 or 30 years ago. I hope that, in his reply, the Minister will tell us what steps Her Majesty's Government have taken to identify and punish the security source who gave that information to The Times. If he is unable to give us assurances on this matter, I suggest that he immediately drops his attempt to gag Mr. Wright in Australia.

None of the dramatic events to which I have referred was reflected in the Queen's Speech. It was a concatenation of limp phrases straight of the Foreign Office word processor. The Foreign Secretary's speech was fully worthy of those phrases. He attacked the Soviet Government for the yawning gap between their words and deeds. Most of the words on foreign affairs in the Gracious Speech are flatly contradicted by the Government's actions. Let us examine a few. I am glad that the Foreign Secretary is listening to the Minister of State, who is probably better-informed on some of these matters than he is himself, but I realise he is not saying very much.

The Gracious Speech states that the Government will work for fundamental change in South Africa, in consultation with their partners in the European Community and with the Commonwealth. But, at the Commonwealth conference, there was very little co-operation by Her Majesty's Government with other members of the Commonwealth, On the contrary, 229 the British Government, on the matter of sanctions against South Africa, were totally isolated from every other member of the Commonwealth. The Government were in a minority of one. They practically handed over the leadership of the Commonwealth to the Prime Minister of India, who fulfilled that responsibility with his usual grace and diplomatic skill. A few weeks later, there was a meeting of the European Community to discuss sanctions. This time, the Foreign Secretary did a little better—he was in a minority of two, along with Chancellor Kohl of Western Germany. At present, the British and German Governments are the only protectors of the apartheid regime.

I suggest that the Foreign Secretary takes a lesson from the United States. Let him now persuade the Government and the Community to accept the same series of sanctions against South Africa as the American Congress has proposed and make those sanctions mandatory under the United Nations, as the overwhelming majority of members of the United Nations Assembly demanded this week. The Government have sought to defend their policy on South Africa by talking about Britain's economic interests there, but I hope that the Foreign Secretary has had drawn to his attention a report from Johannesburg by the United States Department of Commerce which describes South Africa as a chronic debtor, import-starved, ridden with ethnic diversities, a repressive regime unable to manage its own domestic constituency in any positive way, whose only leverage is its ability to manipulate foreign governments"—such as the British Government— and attract international attention—for better or worse. This is not an ambience which can attract US trade and investment. Nor can it possibly attract British trade and investment. In fact, there is a haemorrhage of Western interests leaving South Africa because of the truth of the description I have just quoted.

§ Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke)

The right hon. Gentleman may like to comment on the fact that American capital has been flowing into South Africa since the management takeovers and other superficial withdrawals were announced in September. There has been an increase in United States investment in South Africa, not a decrease.

§ Mr. Healey

The hon. Gentleman may believe that, but it is not the view of President Botha. He said exactly the opposite only last week at his meeting with South African business men. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman verify his references before he again makes such a fatuous remark.

I shall pass to another flaccid phrase in the Queen's speech, which is that the Government will continue to seek more normal relations with Argentina. The Government sought to achieve that by the declaration of a unilateral fishing zone without consulting the United States Government—a decision that led Secretary Shultz this week to throw his weight behind Argentina against the United Kingdom at a meeting of the Organisation of American States, and not only to support but to draft a resolution that condemned the actions of the United Kingdom Government and asked us to negotiate with Argentina on all issues, including sovereignty. As I predicted when the Foreign Secretary announced the decision a fortnight ago, the decision to impose a unilateral fishing zone has further reduced the minimal 230 support for the British position on the Falklands Islands and made it much more difficult to make progress with Argentina. I hear that the progress that has been made in recent months on relaxing Argentine trade controls against the United Kingdom has now come to a complete halt.

Let us look at another contradiction. The Gracious Speech states that the Government will support attempts to achieve settlements … in Central America. But, in spite of the Government's apparent dedication to a fight against state-directed terrorism, we have not heard one word of protest from the Government against the state terrorism financed and organised by the United States against the Republic of Nicaragua in defiance even of its own United States Congress. On the contrary, we learnt from The Times that our representative at the United Nations was instructed the other day to attack Nicaragua for what he described as the "political use of the world court". But Nicaragua took its dispute with the United States to the International Court of Justice. The Court decided that it had jurisdiction, supported the Nicaraguan complaint and found the United States guilty of breaking international law. Not only did we not hear a word of protest against American behaviour from the British Government but we had criticism of the Nicaraguan Government for taking steps to uphold international law as laid down in the United Nations charter. I suggest that, if one compared what the Government say in the Queen's Speech with their behaviour on Nicaragua, two-faced hypocrisy could go no further.

Let us look at the problems of the middle east. Here I find myself, I hope, in closer agreement with Her Majesty's Government. Their undertaking in the Queen's Speech to look for solutions to the problems of the Middle East implies, according to a Foreign Office briefing of the press the following day, support for an international conference on middle eastern problems. I hope that the Minister of State will tell us whether that is the Government's policy and especially whether the Government will now support President Mitterrand and ask the Security Council of the United Nations to set up a working party to prepare such an international conference on the middle east.

I hope that the Minister of State will also tell us the latest position regarding the Israeli Government's response to the British Government's inquiry of five days ago as to the circumstances in which Mr. Vanunu left the United Kingdom. If the hon. Gentleman is not able to give an answer, he had better put his skates on and get one by Tuesday. It is intolerable that Mr. Vanunu may well have been kidnapped from the United Kingdom by members of the same organisation that helped to organise Mr. Dikko's kidnapping to Nigeria not long ago. I hope that the Minister can give the House some information and will not lie supine and inert, as so often is done, when this country's laws are broken by another country which is supposed to have good relations with the United Kingdom.

I return to my point about an international conference on the middle east. I believe that that is now the only hope for progress, especially now that President Reagan has broken ranks with all other Western countries by supplying arms to Iran at a time when Iran is known to be planning what it hopes will be a final offensive against Iraq which, if successful, would set the whole Muslim 231 world ablaze with anti-Western fanaticism — stretching from Morocco in the west to Indonesia in the east—deal a shattering blow to all the West's remaining friends in the Arab world and risk imposing a massive increase in the price of oil which could well, by its effect on the debt problem, bring down the western financial system.

I found President Reagan's attempt to explain his behaviour on television last night stupefyingly incredible. I hope that the Minister of State will be able to tell us what the Prime Minister will say tomorrow to President Reagan about this extraordinary behaviour which is so damaging to western policy in the middle east and to western unity in trying to devise a common approach to the problem of international terrorism.

As the Foreign Secretary said, the main issue in the Prime Minister's talks with President Reagan must be disarmament. The Gracious Speech promises that Her Majesty's Government will work for new agreements on arms control and will seek greater co-operation and trust between East and West". There is a need for trust, because President Reagan is still trying to reconcile what he and Mr. Shultz told the world and the American Congress immediately after Reykjavik with what he is now saying he agreed with Mr. Gorbachev on the same occasion.

According to the Financial Times, which is well briefed by the Foreign Office on these questions, Her Majesty's Government still do not know what happened. They do not even know what the American Government are claiming happened. Having first said that America agreed with Russia on the abolition of all strategic nuclear forces by 1996, not just ballistic missiles, but also nuclear bombers and cruise missiles, the American Government are now saying that they agreed only on the abolition of ballistic nuclear missiles. However, sometimes in the same speech American spokesmen said that they agree only with the abolition of strategic ballistic nuclear missiles. The distinction between those various definitions is important to all of us and very important to arms control. Has the Foreign Secretary got the slightest idea what President Reagan agreed to or what he is now saying he agreed to? I am blessed if I know and I have read all the handouts from the American embassy in London very carefully.

What does seem to have been agreed, because it is not disputed by either side, is the zero option on intermediate nuclear-forces in Europe, a 50 per cent. cut in all strategic nuclear weapons, bombers and cruise missiles as well as ballistic missiles over the next five years and the total abolition of all strategic ballistic missiles or, perhaps all ballistic missiles, in the following five years. It is important to know the British Government's view on that set of agreements. I read in The Guardian the other day that a well-placed diplomatic source in Washington—I suppose it must have been a British diplomatic source—had told The Guardian correspondent It's as if the summit leaders had adopted the Labour Party policy. That is very good news for the Opposition. It is, perhaps, not quite such good news for Her Majesty's Government.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tim Renton)

Which Labour party?

§ Mr. Healey

We are coming along now. The Government Front Bench is listening now. It pretended 232 that it was not listening for a while, but it is now clear that I have it on tenterhooks. I am sure, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you will be as glad as I am to know how alert it has suddenly become, despite the early hour.

Those are impressive sketch agreements. However, agreement in practice was blocked by two factors. The first was President Reagan's determination to continue with the strategic defence initiative in violation of the narrow interpretation of the ABM treaty, which the Prime Minister and Chancellor Kohl both accept and which I was glad to hear the Foreign Secretary endorse in his opening speech. The Foreign Secretary will know that that is not the position of the American Government. They have a series of experiments in mind which would violate the narrow interpretation of the ABM treaty. They have told the world that they believe in a broad interpretation of the treaty, which was invented by two lawyers whose previous expertise in that area was when they were involved in operations against the Mafia in New York.

There was another set of obstacles put in the way of practical agreement. They were put in the way by the Soviet Government. I agree with the Foreign Secretary that it was wrong for the Soviet Government to tie an agreement on intermediate nuclear forces to an agreement on SDI, since the Soviet Government had said in public to President Mitterrand earlier in the year that they were prepared to reach an agreement on INF separate from an agreement on SDI and strategic weapons. The Soviet Government were also wrong not to include in an INF agreement the shorter range intermediate weapons which they put into East Germany and Czechoslovakia after the deployment of cruise and Pershing by the west, Mr. Shevardnadze said in a public speech earlier this year that if there was an agreement on cruise, Pershing and SS20s, it would naturally cover the shorter range missiles as well. Both Governments have to take some of the blame for a failure to turn their outline agreements into practical agreements at Reykjavik.

I hope that when the Prime Minister sees President Reagan she will suggest that through his team in Geneva and other contacts he should explore Soviet hints, which have been multiplying since the Reykjavik meeting, that the Soviet Union might be prepared to redefine the ABM treaty provisions so as to permit some testing outside laboratories. Indeed, one leading Soviet space scientist, Mr. Sagdeev, suggested they might even include some experiments in space. It seems that there is an element of apparent flexibility in the Soviet position which, if it can be properly exploited, could remove one of the major road blocks to agreement. I also hope that when the Prime Minister is at Camp David she will insist that the United States should not break the limits imposed by the SALT treaty. I understand that that was her position earlier in the year. In fact, perhaps the best-informed account of relations between the super-powers between the two summits, which appeared under the name of Mr. John Newhouse, says that her interview with Mr. Nitze arid the American ambassador on the SALT II issue was perhaps the most aggressive and rebarbative of all she has ever had. By golly, that is saying something. I know, Mr. Deputy Speaker that you will agree with that.

The most important matter is that the British Government, and more importantly the American and Soviet Governments, should not allow the progress already achieved at Reykjavik to be wrecked by bringing 233 in new linkages, as the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) suggested should be done. I agree with what the Foreign Secretary said in an interview on television last weekend, that in this extremely complex area of arms control we must move step by step, building confidence as we go along. I must confess that, even if the super-powers reached agreement on the lines achieved at Reykjavik, both sides would still have a ludicrous overkill in strategic nuclear forces and would have achieved very little reduction in the burden of defence spending; a burden which their political systems are compelling them to reduce with or without agreement with one another.

The only way to cut defence spending—as an ex-Secretary of State for Defence I know this very well—is to cut the number of people in the conventional forces and the equipment that goes with them. The balance in conventional forces is far more favourable than the Foreign Secretary admitted or described in his speech. The International Institute of Strategic Studies—it is now an international body and one of the most respected nongovernmental bodies in the world—states in its military balance document for the current year, published only a week ago, that in conventional manpower worldwide, the gap between the west and the east is only a gap between 1 and 1.02. In fact, it is statistically quite insignificant. In Europe, where the Soviet Union keeps a larger proportion of its forces than the United States, the gap in manpower between the two alliances is only between 1 and 1.45.

Both sides could achieve equal security with far smaller forces than that, but the International Institute of Strategic Studies says again, as it has said year after year, that the superiority on the Soviet side is nothing like sufficient to tempt the Soviet Union into an attack on western Europe and, indeed, General Rogers, the American Supreme Allied Commander, Europe, told the press only three weeks ago that there is absolutely no danger of an attack by the Soviet Union out of the blue on western Europe.

What risk there was has been enormously reduced—I agree with the Foreign Secretary, and I praise the Government for the contribution that they made—by the agreement on confidence-building measures at Stockholm, which would make it far more difficult to mobilise a surprise concentration for an attack on the West. It could be made much less likely, too, by the adoption of the nuclear-free corridor in central Europe, recommended by the Palme commission, with the agreement of the leader of the Social Democratic party, the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen). It was also endorsed in an agreement in the past few weeks between the Social Democratic party in Germany and its opposite number in the German Democratic Republic. Such an agreement would be highly advantageous — [Interruption.] I wish that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Enfield, North (Mr. Eggar), who may have had some distant acquaintance with military matters at some time in his youth, would listen to this point. If nuclear weapons are taken out of a corridor 150 km either side of the dividing line in central Europe, that would rob the Soviet Government of the great majority of their nuclear missiles and of their airfields in East Germany while having little 234 effect on the number of missiles and airfields on the NATO side in West Germany. It is a sensible idea from the straight security point of view.

Even agreements, which I would strongly support, on strategic nuclear forces and conventional forces would not in themselves stop the arms race because cuts in existing forces have no effect on the arms race if both sides are busily producing new weapons and new types of forces, as is now the case, as the Foreign Secretary said, not only in the Soviet Union but in the United States. What we need if we want to stop the arms race is a freeze. We need to stop the development of new military technologies. That is perfectly feasible now by a combination of a ban on all nuclear tests, which could be verified, and a ban on the testing of new delivery systems, which also could be verified now by what are called national technical means — photographic satellites, electronic intelligence-gathering satellites and so on.

The big question that many people have asked themselves since Reykjavik is: was it all a propaganda battle, or was it a genuine attempt by political leaders in the Soviet Union and the United States to reach real agreements? I have had the opportunity, as no doubt the Foreign Secretary has in the past week, to speak to both Americans and Russians who were at Reykjavik and took part in the talks. They both agreed — this was very impressive to me—that it was a real breakthrough. Each has more confidence in the sincerity of the other side than before the talks—at least the sincerity of the leaders of the delegations in Reykjavik, if not all their advisers. On both sides there are some questions at the back of people's minds as to whether all the advisers in Washington or, indeed, Moscow are as sincere as President Reagan and Mr. Shultz on the one hand and Mr. Gorbachev and Mr. Shevardnadze on the other hand. But I believe that, that being the case, the most important single task facing the British Government is to try to build on that development of trust and confidence between the two sides, and to try to change the shape of the world as it has been developing since 1945.

To me, the most impressive single statement by Mr. Gorbachev since he took over was in his address to his party conference when he used the jargon of Marxist dialectical materialism to justify renouncing the whole doctrine that has guided Soviet foreign policy since 1917, the doctrine of the permanent struggle between the two camps. He said that he thought that science was slowly creating an interdependent or even integral world. He used a phrase such as one has never heard from any Soviet leader, that we must move towards that world groping in the dark, as it were. Again, that shows a degree of wisdom and understanding of the nature of the international problem that has been lacking in most Soviet leaders.

I hope very much that Her Majesty's Government will support that attempt to move towards a new international security system, because we all know that if the present system should break down and a nuclear war is fought between the super-powers, civilisation and even life as we know it may disappear, at least in the northern hemisphere.

I hope that the Minister of State can tell us that it is not the case that, according to the newspapers, the tragedy is that the Prime Minister may try to sabotage the agreements reached in Reykjavik because they threaten her major electoral weapon in the election, which many people believe may come in the next 12 months; it must 235 come with the next 18 months. She believes—and she is right—that if progress is made along the lines laid down in Reykjavik, she will not get Trident because the abolition of all strategic ballistic missiles will take place between 1991 and 1996.

That is precisely the period in which the right hon. Lady was hoping to receive Trident ballistic missiles from the United States. The real question is: will she make Trident an obstacle to an arms agreement that could be reached and has already been sketched out between the United States and the Soviet Union? It would be a tragedy if she took that line because the progress sketched out at Reykjavik offers us a far safer road to security for mankind than the continuation of the arms race by the multiplication of nuclear weapons and the development of further, more expensive nuclear weapons every 10 years.

The cancellation of Trident would leave Britain free to maintain its conventional contribution to NATO, which is what the Americans most want — both Mr. Weinberger in the present Administration and Senator Sam Nunn, who may be in the next Administration. He could be Secretary of Defence in two years' time. They have both said that they would both prefer Britain to maintain and improve its conventional capability than buy Trident if that were the choice. The Prime Minister has made it clear that she believes that it is the choice.

The Foreign Secretary had the usual bit of party fun with the Labour party for believing that there were some unilateral measures of disarmament that would contribute to overall security. The Prime Minister clearly takes the same view because she has decided unilaterally to cut her defence budget by 7 per cent. in real terms over the next three years irrespective of what our allies want and of what the Soviet Union does. We are beginning to discover the impact of that on the armed forces if Trident goes ahead. The towpath papers, the set of Royal Navy documents conveniently discovered on a towpath near Richmond by a passing journalist — what an extraordinary set of coincidences— revealed that slashing cuts in the Royal Navy were under way.

We are also hearing of the damaging effects on the Rhine Army and the Royal Air Force. If Trident goes ahead, on top of the 7 per cent. overall cut there will be a 20 per cent. cut in new equipment over the three critical years of Trident spending. If that is not one-sided disarmament, what is?

The Foreign Secretary is studiously avoiding listening to me, although I can see signs of anxiety on his face that suggest that he is still alive and well, and even living in London and sitting on the Government Front Bench.

§ Sir Geoffrey Howe

Come on.

§ Mr. Healey

I am trying to say something in my speech, but the Foreign Secretary spoke for 20 minutes and told us virtually nothing—and what he did tell us was tripe, such as when he referred to his great success in achieving European and international co-operation in the struggle against terrorism.

The tragedy of the present position is that the only way the Prime Minister can hope to persuade the British people that it is worth while wrecking disarmament in order to pay for 'Trident, is to misrepresent the nature of the Soviet threat and return to the paranoic stereotypes of the cold war. We had an example of that in the House on Wednesday and also in the right hon. Lady's speech at the 236 Mansion House. However, the British people, the people of the West and of the Soviet Union have had this type of cold war propaganda right up to the gills. The Prime Minister says that if Britain did not have nuclear weapons, the Russians would drop nuclear weapons on us. What about Germany, Japan and Canada?

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Tim Eggar)

What about Afghanistan?

§ Mr. Healey

The Russians have not dropped nuclear weapons on Afghanistan, or have I missed something in the news? The hon. Gentleman's intervention from the Government Front Bench baffles comprehension. All those countries I have mentioned inside the Alliance and all those outside have been free from nuclear attack by the Soviet Union, although none of them have nuclear weapons. I think that that would be equally true of the United Kingdom. I appeal to Government Ministers to use their influence with the Prime Minister to cease making what she wrongly regards as an election weapon, an obstacle to an agreement on disarmament that is now within our grasp.

§ Mr. Julian Amery (Brighton, Pavilion)

It is always entertaining to follow the intellectual aerobatics of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), and he certainly did not let us down as he danced from one crisis area to another, giving an interpretation of defence—which is still obscure. I suppose that he is baffled by the difficulty of trying to reconcile his own past opinions with the present defence strategy of the Labour party. He seems to have found a straw to grasp in his own probably ill-informed interpretation of what might emerge as a consequence of the Reykjavik conference, but which seems extremely unlikely to happen.

The right hon. Gentleman said that he was opposed to linkage in these matters. But, of course, there was a considerable element of linkage at the Reykjavik conference. There were two sub-committees — one on arms control and the other giving attention to regional problems and human rights, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State stressed in his remarks. The two topics cannot and should not be regarded separately, because after all the objective of summit conferences and of relations between the East and the West is not arms control itself but to arrive at some kind of detente. The arms race has really arisen not simply because the Soviets rearmed when the United States did not; it has been largely caused by the advance of Soviet imperialism during the Carter era in Southern Africa, Afghanistan, Cambodia and Central America.

Surely all these matters must be considered side by side if there is to be any progress towards arms control. It is no good reducing our arms strength if the Soviets remain ensconced in the areas that they took over during the Carter years.

As this will be a short debate, I will confine myself to one regional area that is of considerable importance — although not the most important factor—in the whole context of East-West relations, and I refer to South Africa. As on previous occasions, I declare an interest in that country. In the five months since we last discussed foreign affairs, we have had the opportunity to get a rather clearer 237 picture of the situation in South Africa. My right hon. and learned Friend spoke about the importance of dismantling apartheid. There is, in principle, general agreement about that, including the State President of South Africa, although what different people mean by dismantling apartheid is not at all clear.

However, the reforms to which the South African Government say they are committed have been dribbling out bit by bit. If the newspapers are right the Group Areas and Registrations Act is likely to be amended fairly dramatically in the next few months. That is not surprising, since the Act has already been breached in practice in major cities such as Johannesburg and Durban. The emergency continues in South Africa, but it appears to a considerable extent to have been contained.

The picture that has been emerging from South Africa is already very different from the dramatic picture that stirred so many emotions last summer. Desmond Tutu has been enthroned in public as Archbishop of Cape Town. Mr. Motlana continues to give press conferences about the position in Soweto and Mr. Ramaphosa, the trade union leader, is busy negotiating with the mining houses. Indian and coloured Members of Parliament and Ministers are now part of the political process; and although the United Democratic Front is worried about a possible threat to its funds from abroad, it appears to be pretty active too. Some 50 per cent. of the black population are governed or misgoverned by black African Ministers, officials and policemen. I refer to the homelands of the so-called independent or so-called autonomus states.

I regret that President Botha did not bring some of the business community into the Government in his last reshuffle, although admittedly he had no great incentive to do that. His reforms have alienated a number of Afrikaners who would normally have been part of his constituency. His reforms have brought him scant thanks from abroad and conciliated very few of the more prominent black African leaders. President Botha is not in a strong position to endear himself to this House or even to the Foreign Office. After all, he is white, he is not pro-Soviet and not even anti-British. That is rather a weak position to be in at the moment.

I want to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for having kept a cool head when there was so much emotion about this issue. She realised only too well the dangers of getting on to the slippery slope of sanctions and where that might lead. Nevertheless, there is uncertainty about what my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary means when he talks about dismantling apartheid. Does he mean progress towards power sharing between the different ethnic groups in South Africa or a transfer of power — and if so, to whom?

On his mission to South Africa, my right hon. and learned Friend certainly created the impression that what he wanted above all was the unbanning of the African National Congress and the release of Mr. Nelson Mandela. He will not be surprised to learn that that has been perceived as designating the ANC as the natural partner in any dialogue between Pretoria and the black communities. I am not sure whether that was my right hon. and learned Friend's intention. It would certainly be a curious one, as the ANC is a self-proclaimed coalition of Communists and nationalists based largely on the Khoza 238 tribe with support from the intelligentsia in all communities and its policies, so far as we know them, are certainly non-aligned if not pro-Soviet. When Mr. Gavin Relly took some business men to see them in Lusaka, the ANC leaders made no secret of the fact that nationalisation of the commanding heights of power, including the mines, would be one of their main policies, which scarcely makes the ANC an organisation calculated to promote the interests of Britain or of British trade and investment.

§ Mr. Eric S. Heffer (Liverpool, Walton)

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that, because the ANC believes in the nationalisation of the means of production and distribution it is not in the interests of British trade—in other words, that anyone who believes in the socialisation of anything is a natural enemy? I have listened to the right hon. Gentleman's speeches for years but I still do not understand him. Indeed, he seems to get worse as he gets older.

§ Mr. Amery

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's sympathy, but he cannot be surprised if I think that nationalisation in South Africa would be bad for British trade. It would clearly be bad for British investment because it would mean the takeover of important British interests, but it would also be bad for trade. If, as I firmly believe, nationalisation led to the rundown of the South African economy, their ability to absorb our trade would be correspondingly diminished.

We must consider the effect upon other black African leaders of my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary's emphasis on the African National Congress. They have been left with the impression that the Western world wishes the ANC to emerge as the principal partner and no doubt the successor to the Pretoria Government, and in those circumstances they are reluctant even to begin serious negotiations with the South African president.

§ Sir Geoffrey Howe

To put the matter beyond doubt, the position not just of the Commonwealth but of the European Community has been that it is not for us to determine the ultimate shape of South African governmental arrangements but that whatever emerges must be built on the participation of leaders able to carry the consent of all the communities in South Africa. That is why both the Commonwealth and the European Community have said that it is necessary to free Nelson Mandela and other political leaders and to allow the ANC and other political parties to take part in the dialogue which is the way forward. The interesting and important thing is that, only if that process of liberation takes place will chief Buthelezi, for example, be prepared to take part in the necessary dialogue. I cannot determine the outcome of that dialogue and we certainly do not say that the ANC should be the only participant. We say that the many black African political parties and their leaders should be free to take part in the dialogue. From that process the future will emerge. I am not pronouncing a unique benediction on the ANC; I am simply saying that it is one of the organisations whose leaders should be free to take part in the process of discussion that is the necessary precursor to change.

§ Mr. Amery

I am most grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for that important intervention, which goes some way to correct the impression given that the ANC was his favourite son. It is true that Chief Buthelezi and 239 others have made it a condition of negotiations that Mandela should be released, but it is important to consider the extent to which Chief Buthelezi and other African leaders have been under the impression that the Western world is backing the ANC. My right hon. and learned Friend's comments today should help to clear up that point. Many black leaders in South Africa thought that the likely outcome in Zimbabwe would be British recognition of the Muzorewa regime and were surprised to see the British Government create a situation in which the far more extreme Mugabe party came to the top; so they naturally wonder whether the same is likely to happen again.

It is important to bear in mind the ideological position of the ANC. During the summer I had the opportunity to visit some of the ASEAN countries of south east Asia. Twenty years ago those countries had strong Communist parties or parties allied to Communism at least as strong as the position of the ANC in South Africa now. Those parties were suppressed, many of their leaders were murdered and many others are still in detention, but I have never heard any British Government of either complexion protest about what happened there or seek to promote a dialogue between the Communist parties and the ruling parties in those countries. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East was instrumental in producing the counterrevolution in Indonesia in which so many Communists perished.

I do not ask my right hon. and learned Friend to intervene now, but when his colleague winds up for the Government perhaps he will say something about my right hon. and learned Friend's meeting with Oliver Tambo. Did he obtain anything like the matching commitment to non-violence that at one time he was seeking?

In considering the South African situation, we must appreciate that it is as much a social and economic confrontation as a racial confrontation. As we see in the townships, it is very much a matter of blacks killing blacks. African radicalism is a strong force, but so is African conservatism. We have seen the same in the Middle East. At one time it was thought that Arab radicalism of the Nasser type or the Iraqi type would sweep the board, but at the end of the day there are conservative Governments in all the Arab states except Aden, Syria and Libya. Looking at the situation in southern Africa rather than confining our consideration to the Republic of South Africa, we find that in Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland there are what might be described as conservative Governments not merely prepared but anxious to cooperate and work with South Africa. The same is true further north in Malawi.

In the two most radical countries — Angola and Mozambique there is civil war. I do not know what the outcome will be, but I should have thought that we would do well to cultivate relations with Jonas Savimbi in Angola. The fact that we recognise the Government in Luanda should not stop us maintaining relations with Savimbi, just as my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary wishes to cultivate relations with Oliver Tambo although we have proper diplomatic relations with the Republic of South Africa. Whether we could work in Angola and Mozambique for a reconciliation between Government and opposition parties in Angola and Mozambique, I do not know, but I think that with Portuguese and South African support we might achieve it.

240 I come hack to where I started. Regional issues are the key to arms control. Only if we solve regional issues will there be a return to detente. If Mr. Gorbachev is serious about seeking a return to detente, he should facilitate solutions which are acceptable to the West in Angola and in Mozambique. We must, however, be under no illusions about the dangers inherent there.

Moscow may have won the propaganda battle in Reykjavik, but I am not sure that it was not the loser on the substance. It may try to recoup its losses by new regional challenges. If such are presented, we must face up to them and deal with them. We must also conduct our relations with the Republic of South Africa in the knowledge that we may well need its help when facing up to such challenges.

§ Mr. Ted Garrett (Wallsend)

I am sorry that the Foreign Secretary is leaving, because, although the role of the Commonwealth is mentioned twice in the Queen's Speech, he made only a passing reference to it this morning. In September, a successful Commonwealth conference was held in the United Kingdom. The Government's commitment to the conference's success was strong. Indeed, one of the reasons for its success was Mr. Speaker, who assumed the presidency. He made a first-class contribution, attended assiduously and helped to keep the profile of the conference at a high level. It would be churlish of me to omit to say that the Foreign Secretary and his Minister of State, Baroness Young, kept a high profile during the conference's discussions.

The Prime Minister also played a role at the conference. She met Members of Parliament from other Commonwealth countries and presided at the farewell ceremony. All of that helped to contribute to the conference's success. Once it was over, however, the Government's relations with other Commonwealth countries seemed to cool.

The conference discussed some important issues, such as international terrorism and South Africa, calmly and rationally. There was some emotion, but there was much logic behind the high quality of the debates. The Government should pay more attention to matters that affect the Commonwealth, for the simple reason that the European Community is in deep trouble. It has deep structural problems and has lost its impetus for the reasons that I stated many years ago in Doncaster town hall, when I opposed Lord Barber in a debate on membership of the EEC. I said that it was structurally weak and would follow the Leninist theory, which has been a little fashionable today, in that it would destroy itself from within.

Our aspirations for the EEC have not been achieved and are not likely to be. I regret that. It is unfashionable to say so, but we should reconsider our role to bring about more Commonwealth co-operation in hard economic matters, as well as cultural ones. There would be advantages for Britain in that. We might extend our manufacturing base. That is sadly needed. We should then produce more goods requiring transportation, so we would require more ships, some of which would be built in British yards. That would be of some interest to my constituents in the north-east.

We can judge the importance of today's debate by the fact that three hon. Members present also represent the United Kingdom on the Council of Europe, which the Foreign Secretary did not even mention. We have the 241 leader of the United Kingdom delegation, the right hon. Member for Torbay (Sir F. Bennett). He is not a member of my party, but he does his best to keep the United Kingdom's profile high in that 21-nation democratic assembly.

As the EEC continues to disintegrate, we should consider what additional role the Council of Europe can play. It is regrettable that successive Governments have failed to fund it adequately. The Government should look upon it more favourably because it debates many issues democratically, reaches decisions and makes recommendations to Ministers which are often ratified, having gone through our legislative process. The organisation was formed in 1949. Surely we will not let it wither away as well. We must look to the Council of Europe as a means of co-ordinating activity in Europe and beyond.

The EEC's political structure prevents it from succeeding. Can anybody imagine French, German, Belgian or Dutch politicians with important agricultural interests giving away power? Of course not—they would be committing political suicide if they gave away any more. It is we who are regarded as the odd ones out in that respect.

This is only the third time in 23 years that I have spoken in a debate on foreign affairs. I normally leave it to the experts, some of whom are present today. I hope that what I have said will stimulate Ministers and the intelligent people who form the Foreign and Commonwealth Office administration to open their eyes a bit wider and to stop being besotted with the EEC. If a piece in the famous "Sixth Column" in the Daily Telegraph last week, is any indication of the thinking of Conservative Members and Europeans on this side of the House, it should be read. That somehow encapsulates the feeling in the United Kingdom that there must be a change. We cannot keep doggedly on the same route as in the past. I do not expect miracles overnight, but before I die I should like to see some change in our attitude to Europe. What I have been saying should provide the seed corn for some rethinking.

§ Sir Frederic Bennett (Torbay)

I had not intended to include any remarks about the Council of Europe and the Western European Union in my speech today but to concentrate on some other issues raised by my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary. However, in response to the speech of the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett), I must agree with every word he said about the lack of inadequate official support and endorsement for both those bodies which have proved instrumental in furthering British policies on some occasions in the past.

It is strange that it is only when expressions of support are needed because we are going through a difficult period that Governments make use of those bodies. I am particularly grateful for the hon. Gentleman's personal remarks. Although we sit on opposite sides of the House, in the Council of Europe we can often work together. I received some of the best co-operation during the Falklands from the late Tom Urwin when both parties working closely together achieved a near miracle. Before even the United Nations or any other international body, the 21 countries of the Council of Europe passed a near unanimous vote in Britain's favour. I think that there were only two Communist votes against the motion and three 242 Spanish abstentions. We were extremely pleased with ourselves and I well remember that the then Foreign Secretary was pleased, that first difficult afternoon there, to be able to say that we had received international endorsement on a large scale for our actions. That is a typical example of how those bodies can be useful and play an important role.

Later I shall touch on WEU in relation to post-Reykjavik matters. If the hon. Member for Wallsend is to make more speeches such as he made today, I hope that it will not be long before he makes another entrance into our foreign affairs debates. He showed more common sense in 10 minutes than the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) showed throughout his speech. I hope that that remark does not do him any harm in his relationships.

I wish to deal with two matters arising directly from the Front Bench speeches. I was absolutely delighted to hear my right hon. and learned Friend speak strongly about how we could possibly have faith in Soviet peaceful intentions when the Soviet Union continues its aggression, genocide, slaughter and driving into exile in Afghanistan. Equally, I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman did not make one reference to Afghanistan, except in answer to one of my colleagues when, with his far-famed discourtesy when he is speaking on a weak brief, he said that the remark was fatuous. The point of the observation was that if Afghanistan had had nuclear weapons, did any hon. Member think that Russia would have invaded it? That was a perfectly legitimate point to make, and one beyond challenge.

Recently there has been much talk about bias and I soon shall produce a record of bias in the BBC on something that will not be able to be denied. The challenge will not be made by the Conservative party chairman, but by me and other colleagues and it will rest on facts. It concerns the amount of time which the BBC devotes to Afghanistan compared with South Africa. It is an interesting comparison and the ratio is about 20:1.

To come nearer home, during the Labour party conference, unless one did one's timing with a stopwatch, the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock) devoted 12 minutes to an attack on American policy in Nicaragua and Central America [Interruption.] In under one minute — I hope that Labour Members laugh at that — he referred to the tragedy in Afghanistan, but he did not even have the courage to mention the occupying nation. He studiously left out the Soviet Union.

§ Mr. Robert N. Wareing (Liverpool, West Derby)

The Foreign Secretary did not mention Nicaragua.

§ Sir Frederic Bennett

The Foreign Secretary is responsible for his own speeches. He was prepared to speak and in any case my hon. Friend the Minister of State will doubtless deal with any questions raised on Nicaragua. I should love to do so, but I have not time, if I am to keep my undertaking to remain reasonably brief.

It is becoming increasingly distasteful to all who believe that sanctions are not the right way forward constantly to be accused of being pro-apartheid. It is perfectly legitimate and honourable — I have no interests to declare — to believe that mandatory sanctions will not produce a desirable result. They may give us moral satisfaction. I loathe apartheid, but I still do not believe that mandatory sanctions are the right answer. My hon. Friend the 243 Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter) is right in saying that already the threat of sanctions is acting as a spur in South Africa. People under threat always react to a spur.

In my speech when sanctions were first being talked of, 1 forecast that the chief sufferers would be the blacks and that the chief sufferers among the blacks would be the populations and economies of the front-line states. That has already turned out to be right and is happening today. We have made our moral gesture, but who is suffering? It is not those whom we were told would be brought to heel.

My main theme relates to the WEU, of which I am a member. Indeed, I also have the honour to lead the British delegation there. I wish to recall the moments and days after the Reykjavik result was announced. For some hours and perhaps for even a couple of days, there was some criticism of the Americans. People said, "We were within an ace of reaching an agreement. If only the Americans had not produced SDI as an argument, we might have been home and dry on the removal of Pershing and cruise missiles back to the United States and of the SS20s behind the Urals into Asia." Then the sickening realisation dawned on all parties in the WEU that, if that package had been fulfilled, Europe would have been in a more dangerous position than it has ever been since the last war. The net result would have been the removal of the SS20s and Pershings and cruise. If the threat had developed again, it would not have been easy to bring Pershings and cruise back into Europe, but with a good lorry the SS20s could have been brought back to the west within seven days. That was the acute realisation of the dangers that we would have incurred.

Then there was the result for the military and strategic balance. My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) attends these meetings with me, has great expertise and knows what the results would have been. I am sure that he will correct me if what I say is wrong. We would have lost any nuclear back-up for our forces, except the strategic missile threat from the United States of America and our deterrent. The rest of Europe would have been in an even worse position and gravely at risk because, with the exception of France, which has no intention of giving up its deterrent — Socialist or Communist though it may be—since the SS20s and their rivals, the Pershings and cruise, were installed, the Russians have been installing SS21s, SS22s, and SS23s into Czechoslovakia and East Germany. They call them short-range weapons, but they could reach and destroy centres of population even in the United Kingdom.

The west does not have similar weapons that could reach the Soviet Union and we could destroy only satellite countries with our tactical nuclear weapons. The ratio at the moment is 9:1 in favour of the Russians. The Shadow Foreign Secretary did not mention that when he was working out the strategic balance. Even if the SS21s, SS22s and SS23s were included in the deal, the Russians would still have a majority in smaller range tactical weapons of 7:1.

The House has been told that the balance against us in conventional weapons is not nearly as serious as it appears to he. That again is nonsense. We all know the tactics of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East. He picks a single statistic, which in this case is manpower, and he uses that to make his case. He talked about ratios of one to 1.04 or 1.2 or 1.4, but he did not mention tanks, in which the Russians have a ratio in their favour of nearly 3:1. He did not talk about artillery, in which the Russians have a 244 favourable ratio of between 2:1 or 3:1, or about mobile guns in which the ratio is nearly 3:1. Those statistics did not favour his arguments and were omitted from his speech.

§ Mr. Heffer

The right hon. Gentleman makes the case that the whole world and especially the EEC and the nations of western Europe are threatened by the Soviet Union. He says that the Soviet Union has overwhelming superiority in weapons. In that case, why did it not take us over a long time ago? I have never heard such nonsense.

§ Sir Frederic Bennett

I shall resist the temptation to be as offensive as Opposition Members always seem to think they have to be in order to be effective. That is a mistake, but it seems to be Opposition policy and they like to follow it. I am not surprised that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) is no longer playing a substantial role in his party. The answer to his question is simple: because we have a nuclear deterrent.

§ Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton)

The Prime Minister is in favour of the zero-zero option in relation to INF. The Foreign Secretary re-emphasised in this debate that he is also in favour of the zero-zero option, and so is the President of the United States. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is also in favour. Does the right hon. Gentleman not feel lonely? He is one of the few people attacking the zero-zero option.

§ Sir Frederic Bennett

So far, I have not mentioned the zero-zero option. The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) mentions a lot of people who are in favour of it, but they are also in favour of the ending of sin. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is in favour of ending that. too, as I am. Obviously, he has not carefully read the Prime Minister's speeches. Of course, the zero-zero option is the ultimate aim, but it would have to apply to nuclear tactical weapons and medium-range weapons and there would have to be some kind of ban on chemical warfare. That would be a real zero-zero option. Of course, we are all in favour of no arms at all and I am also in favour of zero-zero for conventional arms.

The INF deal that was nearly reached in Reykjavik did not mention nuclear tactical weapons or the SS2Is, SS22s and SS23s. It did not make the removal of those two forms of missile conditional on some kind of agreement on chemical warfare. There is no point, in this context, of raising the issue of the zero-zero option and I do not feel lonely at all, because we are all in agreement in wishing that one day such a thing can be achieved. I am talking about the practicalities of 1986.

As I have said, the Soviets have a massive superiority of 9:1 in tactical nuclear weapons. The SS2ls, SS22s and SS23s all have a range which would enable them to reach England. The Soviets would have been left not just with a majority but with an overwhelming superiority in chemical warfare weapons and they have substantially larger conventional forces.

I shall now come to the Labour party policy on defence, and I do not wish to indulge in party politics as such The Opposition proposals go even further than Reykjavik because they want to get rid of our nuclear deterrent as well as the American bases, and they seek no reciprocal gestures from the Soviet Union about arms reductions. They have gone even further than Mr. Gorbachev has asked any of us to go. It is impossible for the Labour party 245 to go into the next election reconciling its policy of closing US bases and getting rid of our nuclear deterrent with our membership of NATO.

§ Mr. Robert Wareing (Liverpool, West Derby)

How does Canada reconcile it?

§ Sir Frederic Bennett

Canada does not forbid American bases. It has them all around. These interruptions are not worth listening to. If the Labour party policy of getting rid of American bases and our nuclear deterrent is carried out by saying that we do not want to shelter any more under the nuclear umbrella, that will be the end of NATO. If Opposition Members think that that is not true, they should meet some of their social democratic colleagues in other countries, such as West Germany, who echo every word that I have said. In no case have any of the French parties a desire to follow the Opposition policy because they regard it as sheer madness. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that that is correct.

§ Dr. M. S. Miller (East Kilbride)

The right hon. Gentleman spoke about the Soviet Union and its massive arms superiority. Does he not think that the Russian leaders would be happy to use their wealth to make their people more affluent and get rid of weapons? What does he think the Soviet Union should do to further that desire?

§ Sir Frederic Bennett

I shall give a perfect example. The Russians should stop killing people in Afghanistan. That would be a good way to start showing to the rest of the world a peaceful image. The considerable amount of money that Russia devotes to that battle could be used to improve the lot of its own people. That would be a convincing way to persuade me that I might be wrong, but they have not done that and I prefer deeds to words.

Polls taken among young people who favour Labour party policy show that they believe that the policy means the end of our effective membership of NATO. There is one body for which, to put it mildly, I have no love and that is the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. Many Opposition Members and Labour party candidates belong to that organisation. CND is at least honest because it has passed a resolution calling for an end to American bases, an end of our nuclear deterrent and a withdrawal from NATO. I can understand that sort of argument, but Labour Members who support their party and support CND are being less than honest with themselves, because on the one hand they belong to a body that recognises the truth of what I am saying and on the other they try to fudge the issue under the expert guidance of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East.

§ Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness and Sutherland)

The Foreign Secretary rightly opened the debate by speaking of European co-operation and the steps that have been taken within the past five months since our previous debate on foreign affairs. He was right to do so, because it recognised implicitly that the scope for independent action by the United Kingdom in tackling many of the major international problems which face our world is extremely limited.

However, the Foreign Secretary, as is customary with him, exuded a sort of optimism which the events of the past five months cannot support. It is true that he has a 246 somewhat plodding approach to the conduct of foreign affairs, but the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) was wrong to describe him as flaccid, either in his speech or in his actions. There is a certain kind of stolid belief in the inevitability of gradualness which hangs around the Foreign Secretary. I fear that that laid-back approach to the problems with which Britain and other democracies are faced does not display the urgency that is needed in tackling the problems.

The Foreign Secretary's report on the discussions and modest agreement in London earlier this week on terrorism was not entirely frank. At least two parts of that agreement — the supervision of embassies and the supervision of Syrian Arab Airlines—leaves much to be spelled out if we are to believe that it is to be in any sense effective. But even more serious was his admission of all mention of the extraordinary French negotiations with Syria. It is a form of cynicism, which does not speak well of European co-operation, that Mr. Chirac could have given the interview that he did with the Washington Star News describing his attitude.

It was also remarkable that the Foreign Secretary, although speaking of the agonies of resisting the blackmail of those terrorists who have taken hostages, did not speak more frankly about the American actions in Iran over recent months. That is a revelation of a course of behaviour which seems far removed from the protestations of the American Administration about the need for strength in the face of such terrorist activities. It is not the role of a candid friend simply to remain silent about such matters, as the Foreign Secretary did today.

On South Africa, the Foreign Secretary spoke of the positive and restrictive September measures which have been taken to bolster the European Community's attack on apartheid. His speech on the subject was remarkably weak and failed to recognise how rapidly events are moving, and not all in a comforting direction, in southern Africa. But his intervention in the speech of the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) was helpful in setting out the need for dialogue within South Africa and the need to seek to persuade the South African Government of the urgency of that dialogue between members of all communities.

The Foreign Secretary was right to mention the tragic death of President Machel, but I thought that he might have taken the opportunity to speak of the support which we in Britain and our partners in the European Community must give directly and financially to the front line states to strengthen their economies and communications against attack from the South Africans as the restrictive measures and measures being pursued more robustly by the United States begin to take effect.

In his remarks about the liberalisation of trade, the Foreign Secretary rather over-egged the pudding in trumpeting the success of the Punta del Este conference in moving towards some limitation of non-tariff barriers against the importation of whisky in Japan. Valuable though no doubt that is, it falls far sort of the steps which are needed if the competitive and conflicting economic policies being pursued at present by the leading industrial countries of the world are not to threaten the prosperity of the industrialised nations as well as of the developing countries.

The Plaza accords were trumpeted at the time as being designed to manage the devaluation of the dollar, but I regret that that has been replaced by competition and 247 conflict in the world money markets. Britain is being rendered incapable of influencing that important debate by the Prime Minister's stubborn refusal to associate Britain with the exchange rate mechanism of the European monetary ststem. We stand back and watch while the rest of the EC, not surprisingly, doubts our credentials in the presidency to speak of such matters.

The Foreign Secretary passed over the failure during the presidency to tackle even those matters to which the Government attach such importance as air fares and the intolerable lack of competition within the EC on that front. I welcome what he had to say about drug trafficking. I have no doubt that agreements to pool intelligence are an important part of the international fight against that appalling crime.

However, the Foreign Secretary is embarrassed in his presidency by the long record of Britain's Administration being out of step with the EC on central issues. In six months he cannot seek to repair the damage inflicted by the Prime Minister's hectoring diplomacy and obstinate pursuance of the narrowest objectives, even when they are plainly subordinate to the wider objective of Europe speaking with one voice.

Perhaps the most surprising omission from the Foreign Secretary's speech was any reference to the dispute in the south Atlantic over the Falklands and its future. Attention was drawn to that by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East, but he offered no suggestion as to how to take the case further forward. I hope that, when the Minister of State replies, he will say something about the Falklands, but I put it to him—it is important that it should be said when the Prime Minister is meeting President Reagan, whose Administration is finding it increasingly difficult to keep in line with Britain's position in the south Atlantic—that the stasis which the Government have induced is not acceptable.

It is impossible to put that issue on ice. By their actions in declaring a 150-mile fisheries zone, the Government have shown that it is necessary to make a move and to protect fisheries for international as well as national reasons. But the Foreign Secretary cannot expect to take such action without it having any impact on the longstanding dispute between Argentina and us. It would be a foolish hon. Member who called for an immediate transfer of sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. It is right that the views of the Falkland Islanders should be given the fullest consideration. However, I do not accept that they can be the paramount consideration.

It is essential to open discussions now with the Argentines so that we can achieve a stable settlement in the south Atlantic that allows us to abandon the heavy cost of maintaining the fortress Falklands policy. The Government should look at chapter 13 of the United Nations charter and at the provisions in article 83 in respect of the strategic trust territories. Those provisions may provide one way of helpfully internationalising the issue. If the sovereignty of the islands was pooled under the supervision of the Security Council, with Britain exercising a right of veto, it might prove a helpful move. Given the interests of the OAS, it might also be helpful to consider whether Britain and Argentina could not nominate other friendly countries that we would be prepared to involve in the administration of those islands. There are ways in which we can relieve ourselves of this crippling and continuing burden, and so break the 248 diplomatic log jam that has gone on for too long, to the grave embarrassment not only of our Exchequer but of the struggling democracy in Argentina.

§ Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke)

I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman. Is he saying that it is his party's policy that the clear wish of the Falkland islanders might be disregarded for other considerations?

§ Mr. Maclennan

I did not say anything of the sort. I said that the wishes of the Falkland islanders should be given the fullest consideration. I rejected the Prime Minister's suggestion that they should be given paramount consideration. I was quite clear about that.

So far, the debate has rightly been dominated by the defence issues that have arisen following the meeting at Reykjavik. The Foreign Secretary chided the Labour party for being obscure about its view on the future of Britain's relationship with the EC in the unfortunate and unlikely event of the Labour party coming to office, but no one could say that there was anything obscure about the Labour party's view on defence. If anyone did have any doubts, they would have been cleared up in the past 24 hours by none other than the right hon. Member for Leeds, East, who helpfully attempted to clarify the leader of the Labour party's view on the issue of deterrence.

According to today's edition of The Independent, the right hon. Gentleman attended a press conference yesterday and said that his