Northern Ireland Assembly (Dissolution)

§ The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Tom King)

I beg to move, That the draft Northern Ireland Assembly (Dissolution) Order 1986, which was laid before this House on 12th June, be approved. That the draft Northern Ireland Act 1974 (Interim Period Extension) Order 1986, which was laid before this House on 4th June, be approved. I understand that it will be for the convenience of the House, Mr. Speaker, if we discuss these two orders together.

§ Mr. Speaker

Will it be for the convenience of the House to discuss these orders together?

§ Mr. J. Enoch Powell (South Down)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State appeared to be moving the approval of both orders. I take it that the position is that the two orders may be debated together but that a separate Question will have to be put in due course in regard to the second order.

§ Mr. Speaker

That is entirely correct, but is it the wish of the House that these two orders be debated together?

Hon. Members

Aye.

§ Mr. King

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. I confirm my understanding of the point that the right hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Powell) has made.

The draft Northern Ireland Assembly (Dissolution) Order 1986 relates to the dissolution of the existing Assembly. I emphasise "the existing Assembly". This Assembly would in any case reach the end of its normal life on 20 October. I made a statement to the House last week in which I set out our decision on this matter and our proposal to bring forward this order today. In that statement I sought to make clear the background to our decision.

The Assembly effectively has two central functions. The first is to consider and report on how a devolved Northern Ireland Administration could be formed. The second is a scrutiny role in relation to the Northern Ireland departments. For the reasons that we rehearsed last week, it has not been possible to achieve the first of those functions. In respect of the second — the scrutiny function, which started well and which was proving to he a valuable instrument in the administration of the Province—it is interesting to note that, in the case of the recommendations from the various Scrutiny Committees that we established to monitor the work of Northern Ireland departments, the latest information I have is that 75 per cent. of the Committee recommendations have been accepted in respect of draft orders and comments on them.

Unfortunately, that useful work was suspended by the decision of the Members themselves in December and was then formally abandoned in March. The Assembly was charged with two central functions but for some months it has been discharging neither. As long ago as last December I warned that if the Assembly did not discharge its proper functions it would put its continuance at risk. I have since reinforced that warning and did so twice in May. As there was no change in the situation. I subsequently invited the leaders of the main Unionist 1215 parties to come and discuss the position of the present Assembly. As the House knows, they refused to do even that

§ Sir John Biggs-Davison (Epping Forest)

Is it not the case that all those admirable functions that were performed by Committees of the Northern Ireland Assembly could well be performed by appropriate Committees of this House?

§ Mr. King

The advantage was that the functions were being performed by people with a more intimate and closer knowledge of circumstances in Northern Ireland. I respect the great knowledge of the Province and the history of the whole of Ireland that my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Sir J. Biggs-Davison) has, but I should be very surprised if he were to maintain, or if anyone were to pretend, that hon. Members of this House who do not represent Northern Ireland constituencies could claim to do the detailed scrutiny work as effectively as those whose homes are in the Province.

The leaders of the main Unionist parties were not even prepared to discuss the position with us. I hope that the House will accept that I gave the Unionist leaders in the Assembly every opportunity to resume their proper functions so that the Assembly would be able to continue. I regret to say that it is because of their failure to discharge their proper functions, and obviously because, not least, some quite serious questions could be asked about the application of public funds to a body set up to carry out certain functions under an Act of Parliament when those funds are not being used for that purpose, that the present action is being taken.

I should like to make it clear that the disgraceful and childish antics in which some Members of the Assembly, and especially the members of the DUP, indulged more recently of occupying a telephone exchange and requiring eviction by the Royal Ulster Constabulary did not enter into my considerations. I was concerned solely to see that the Assembly discharged the functions for which it was set up.

If this order were not made, automatically there would be fresh elections to the Assembly after the dissolution on 20 October. The order does not abolish the legal basis for the Assembly. It simply abolishes the present Assembly which, allowing for the normal recess that it might have taken, would have had only about another month or six weeks of normal sitting days.

The order dissolves the present Assembly and leaves open the date of elections to a new Assembly. It is important to make that point because of some of the exaggerated comments by some spokesmen in the Northern Ireland parties. I noted the comments of the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) who complained that all platforms were denied to him. I have described the hon. Member by his proper title. He is a Member of this House, and as such he has access to the most important forum in the United Kingdom. He makes little use of it, and so he cannot say that he is denied the opportunity of expressing in a democratic forum comments on behalf of the people that he represents.

§ Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson (Newbury)

In the event of the Assembly being reassembled for whatever reasons, and assuming that that came after round-table talks, 1216 would the Assembly have to operate as is presently conceived in the legislation, or could the legislation be amended according to what came out of those talks?

§ Mr. King

I shall say something shortly about how I see the future of the Assembly and the way forward.

I should like to deal with the allegation that somehow the Government are trying to suppress free speech or free comment or democratic expression. When I look at the situation that has developed in the local councils in Northern Ireland, at the situation in the Assembly and at the empty Benches in this House, I note that it is not decisions of the Government that have brought any of those circumstances about. They were brought about by the decisions of people in the Assembly or in the councils or by those who were elected to this Parliament. I regret their refusal to discuss the problems with Ministers. They loudly complain about people's refusal to listen, while at the same time they refuse to talk or to take any part in discussions. The inconsistency of that position will be apparent to all hon. Members.

§ Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness and Sutherland)

I recognise that there is a great difference between the situations in Scotland and Northern Ireland, but does the Minister recognise that they seem to have one thing in common? I refer to the Government's attitude to the governing of Scotland and Northern Ireland. The wishes of the representatives of the majority of people in Northern Ireland about the arrangements that are made are not given effect in this House. They wish to have more discussed here. Similarly, the representatives of the majority in Scotland wish to have devolved government and the Government are setting their face against that. Does the Minister not see anything curious about this? Why is he so unresponsive to the views of the majority of elected Members from Scotland and Northern Ireland about the way their countries should be governed?

§ Mr. King

I cannot deny that I see many things that are curious in both situations. I shall come to the point raised by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) because I want to talk about alternative approaches in different parts of the United Kingdom. The issue that the hon. Gentleman has raised is important.

§ Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh)

rose—

§ Mr. King

I should like to complete the point and then I shall give way.

We look forward to the creation of a new Assembly on an acceptable basis, but the charge that the Government sought to bring about the dissolution, or that we have been unreasonable or not willing to talk, simply cannot be sustained. I hope that it is now understood in Northern Ireland that I am more than ready to listen to people's points of view and to talk to anybody who wishes to have discussions about a constructive way forward. I shall say more about that later.

If the dissolution of the Assembly is approved by the House, and that decision is confirmed by the Privy Council, there will then be a period during which I shall be anxious to see that as far as possible we can maintain effective methods of consultation. One of the arrangements that operated in the Assembly was that draft instruments or draft orders were issued for consultation and the Assembly was invited to give its views. I propose to continue the practice of sending to the party leaders in 1217 Northern Ireland and to interested hon. Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies in the House any such documents that come forward so that they can continue to he informed about matters. We shall, of course, be willing to receive any of their comments.

§ Mr. J. Enoch Powell

Is the Secretary of State aware that before 1982, when the practice that he has just described prevailed. there were frequent consultations between Northern Ireland Members and Ministers? Those often resulted in substantial and desirable modifications of the orders that were eventually brought before the House. There is no reason why that procedure should not be fruitful.

§ Mr. King

I am grateful to the right hon. Member for South Down for his remarks and I hope that he speaks for others as well as for himself.

§ Mr. Mallon

I wanted to intervene earlier to ask the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) whether he was enunciating his party's policy when he spoke about majority rule.

§ Mr. King

It will be a fascinating argument when it starts. I am sure that both the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland will enjoy it.

§ Mr. Ian Gow (Eastbourne)

Could my right hon. Friend address himself to the question that was raised by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan), the spokesman for the SDI'? Does my right hon. Friend recall the year 1978, when he and I voted in favour of the proposition that, before Scotland and Wales were governed differently from the way in which they had been governed before, there should be a referendum in both countries to test whether that which was acceptable to the House was acceptable to a majority in Scotland and in Wales? Why, if he and I were correct to insist on a referendum then, are we not correct to ask for a referendum in Northern Ireland?

§ Mr. King

My hon. Friend knows the answer before I give it. It is that Northern Ireland is not being governed differently from the way in which it was governed before. I know that my hon. Friend is referring to the Anglo-Irish agreement, and the government of the Province is no different after that agreement. He will recall, as he knows it word for word and I would not presume to tell him anything about it, that the agreement brings no change in the sovereignty of the House and the Government's responsibility for Northern Ireland. That is the essential difference between this case and that about which he was talking.

It was suggested that we should simply not have the Northern Ireland Act 1974 (Interim Period Extension) Order at all, and merely allow the order to lapse, and that its non-renewal was a possible course to take. I put that on record, because I know that it is a matter in which many hon. Members have taken a close interest. I leave aside for the moment the political background and implications of such a decision. I hope that it is understood, now that discussions have taken place, that, quite apart from the political considerations, the technical problems would make it impossible simply not to renew the order. That would lead to major problems for the House and to major gaps in the executive authority and powers in the Province, which would severely hamper administration.

1218 Successive Secretaries of State have come to the House seeking the renewal of the order, and each has said that he hoped that this would not have to he repeated much more often. The basis on which we might forgo renewal does not exist, and, on both the technical and practical considerations, it is necessary to invite the House to renew the direct rule powers contained in the order.

The background both to the decision about the dissolution of the Assembly and that about the interim period extension order shows that this is an appropriate time to take stock of the situation in the Province, and for the Government to make clear their views on the best way forward. There has been more intensive debate in the Province in recent months. One of the consequences flowing from the Anglo-Irish agreement is that it has stimulated a more intensive debate in the Province about what the right way forward should be, and, particularly in Unionist circles, a reconsideration of the position and objectives. It is clear that there is no going back, and that this is the best way forward.

I move on to the approaches to the situation in Northern Ireland that are being debated, my impressions of them and the Government's view on them. The approaches are integration, devolution and even independence, all of which have had their advocates in this debate. I shall deal first with integration. The Government do not support, and would not be prepared to suggest. integration as a policy for Northern Ireland. To suggest that there is no difference between Northern Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom is to ignore completely the background of different histories, traditions, community attitudes and political parties. These differences have evolved over centuries, and cannot simply be discussed as minor variations that can be cast aside in a uniform Westminster package. There are fundamental objections, without even adding to them the massive problems of reconciliation of legislation and the whole issue of local councils and how they can operate in ways that protect their electors from discrimination.

The slogan used now to advocate integration is "equal citizenship". The implication is that different treatment of legislation implies less citizenship. Yet we know — and this is the point to which the hon. Member for Sutherland and Caithness referred—that there are differences in the way in which we handle Scottish and Welsh matters, while all remaining equal citizens under the Crown. Total integration is unacceptable, not only to the Government but to the House, and the vast majority of people in the Province, both Unionist and Nationalist. They wish to see more control over their own affairs exercised within the Province. I make it clear that integration is simply not on.

In saying that, I repeat what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said which was that the Government are certainly willing to look at ways in which Northern Ireland business is handled in the House and to see whether there are ways in which this could be improved. I recognise that there are points to be discussed over the ways in which legislation and other matters are treated. I confirm that we are ready to consider any constructive suggestion. However, I add that this willingness to look at reasonable changes in our present practices should not mislead anyone to believe that this could somehow lead to the stale of integration that some hon. Members expound.

§ Sir Eldon Griffiths (Bury St. Edmunds)

My hon. Friend is right to say that this matter has been discussed 1219 in great detail. Will he make clear the Government's position? Is he saying that the acknowledged differences between the various dependent parts of the United Kingdom—that is, the differences between the English and the Welsh, and the English and the Scottish—are differences of degree, but that the differences between the English and the Welsh and the Northern Irish are differences of kind? If he is drawing that distinction, I am afraid that I do not understand it.

§ Mr. King

My hon. Friend knows that there are differences, whether of degree or of kind — whatever word he chooses, we would need to debate at substantial length. I would not want to mislead my hon. Friend because I am not fully seized of his point. There are different practices, traditions and realities in Northern Ireland. We recognise the differences between the communities and their aspirations, and the different legislation in Norther Ireland. I leave aside one of the key differences—that the major political parties representing in the House every other part of the United Kingdom do not operate within Northern Ireland, as my hon. Friend knows.

Because of the debate that has taken place, I thought it was my responsibility to the House to make clear the Government's position. It would be wrong if encouragement were given to the view that the Government might be prepared to entertain certain alternatives. I hope hon. Members will accept that I have been willing to listen to any points that they wished to make and not to reject them from a doctrinaire point of view. I have been willing to consider ways in which we could help reconcile some of the problems and attitudes. In my statement I have sought to set out what I believe to be possible, but also what I believe is not possible and where I think there is scope to proceed.

§ Mr. Julian Amery (Brighton, Pavilion)

I am sorry that my right hon. Friend has come out so strongly against the possibility of integration. That is his business and he is free to do it. May I correct him on one point? He said that the political parties in this country have not operated in the Province. The Unionist party in the North of Ireland was closely and integrally affiliated with the Conservative party until he and some of his predecessors brought about the present stress.

§ Mr. King

There is something in what my right hon. Friend says, but he also knows that the background of the traditions and political loyalties in the Province is not the same as the basis of political loyalties in the rest of the United Kingdom. He will accept equally the validity of that point.

§ Sir John Farr (Harborough)

rose—

§ Mr. King

I do not want to take up too much time because we have other orders to debate. My hon. Friend will accept that I have given way on several occasions.

I want to set out the way in which the Government wish to proceed. The Government want to see devolved government in the Province on a basis that commands widespread acceptance. We want a basis on which elected people from the Province can again have a real say in its administration. [Interruption.] I heard the groan from my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery), but history is not encouraging. That is an easy 1220 and obvious point to make. If my right hon. Friend were plugged into the debate that is taking place in Northern Ireland he would know that recent events have concentrated people's minds in a different way on the best way forward.

In the debate on the Anglo-Irish agreement I recall the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. McCusker) saying that if he had known that he would have to face the Anglo-Irish agreement he would have considered seriously sitting down with the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) to see whether they could reach agreement, as residents representing constituencies in Northern Ireland. Many such remarks have encouraged me to believe that more and more people realise the importance of making a real effort this time to find agreement.

We now need to start talking, not necessarily in a great formal gathering or in an official meeting. We must start the process of understanding better each other's point of view. Sooner or later there must be talks, and the sooner the better. I may have the wrong impression, but I think that at last people in the Province appreciate that I am prepared to listen to constructive arguments, that my door is genuinely open and that, as somebody who believes both in the value of Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom and in the clear rights of the majority in that respect, as well as in the rights of the minority to equal and fair treatment in the Province as part of the United Kingdom, my concern is to see the present log jam broken and a new start made. Nobody who cares about Northern Ireland can want the present sterile and pointless campaign to continue because its main casualty is the good name of Northern Ireland and the interests of all its people.

§ Sir John Farr

I was anxious that my right hon. Friend should give way. He is on a very important point and he has stressed how anxious he is to hear differing views. Can he tell the House what opinion he tapped, or what sources of information in Northern Ireland he approached, to enable him to come to the conclusive view that he has put, as representing the Government's view? No doubt it is the result of the local soundings that he has taken. Can he elaborate on that point because it is important that we should know from which sources he has been getting this advice?

§ Mr. King

I have talked to a wide range of people, some of whom might not wish to be identified because of the intimidation that undoubtedly exists in many quarters in Northern Ireland. Many brave people who care about the future of the Province wish to ensure that their views are known and that their best hopes are understood by the Government. I have talked also to Church leaders and to many others. I have sought to talk to as wide a range as I can of Unionists and Nationalists across the Province as a whole. It is against that background that I have formed my views.

I do not wish to be discourteous in not always giving way. This is the beginning of the debate and no doubt hon. Members will seek to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall be interested to hear their views. I am sorry that I did not give way earlier to my hon. Friend.

In finding the way forward there must be a start to talks. My pledge is that I am ready now to enter into talks in whatever form is convenient, without pre-conditions 1221 and, if desired, outside any involvement with the Anglo-Irish agreement. I make that offer now. There must be talks. They must start sooner or later, but in whatever form I set no pre-conditions on them. That must be the way to start. I hope that at last others can respond to see whether we can find a basis on which a happier future for the Province can be laid.

§ Mr. Peter Archer (Warley, West)

I begin by agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman that the Assembly in its recent phase was simply a channel for the abuse of public funds that would have been better spent in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland. Perhaps I go further than he does. Last week when I said that was pronouncing the obsequies on the Assembly he took me to task. He said, as he reminded us today, that the proposal was merely to dissolve the Assembly, so that if at any future time it was required it could be brought out of store. So we are not pronouncing the obsequies; we are attending a farewell party.

If there comes a time when all the parties decide that they want to discuss the exercise of power in Northern Ireland by the people of Northern Ireland, I suspect that it may be better to provide a different instrument, if only to avoid casting a cloud over the proceedings by reminding them of former unhappy times—those through which we are now passing.

For the moment, another institution is laid to rest and, with it, the hopes which were once invested in it. It would be remiss of us to let this occasion pass without paying tribute to those who tried to make it work. Let us record a tribute to the Speaker of the Assembly, the hon. Member for North Down (Mr. Kilfedder), and his staff. It was not neglect on their part which led to the present circumstances. They tried, and they deserve better. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there remain as memorials to the Assembly some thoughtful, well-researched and locally based reports which, in better times, will serve as guides to policy. They demonstrate that politicians who disagree profoundly about many issues may find a basis for co-operation on the practical questions which affect the welfare of their constituents.

Where then is there left to go, bearing in mind that it would have been better if we were not starting from here? Let us begin with what we already have. The Government are inviting the House to renew the arrangements for the interim period. Whatever our respective preferred solutions, we are probably agreed that, for the moment, there is no alternative to continuing direct rule —certainly, some kind of direct rule and, as of now, the 1974 Act. Unhappily, we are also probably agreed that the only argument to be urged in its favour is that there is no agreement on an alternative.

No one who was asked to design a method of government for a free people would have come up with the first schedule to the Northern Ireland Act 1974. Decisions which are of vital concern to the people of Northern Ireland are taken by a Government—I do not mean just the present Government; any Government—in London who do not depend for their support on the electors of Northern Ireland, whose candidates have not sought election there, and who have little to gain from satisfying the electors and little to fear from their displeasure. It is the negation of representative government. I believe that we are all agreed on that.

1222 If those inevitable dire consequences are magnified by the Government's business managers seeking to legislate for whole areas of activity by bringing on unamendable orders at impossible hours of the night, it is small wonder that the anxieties and hopes of the people of Northern Ireland are not reflected in the instruments which issue from the Westminster Parliament.

I am pleased that the right hon. Gentleman stated his willingness to discuss the problems of legislation in the House. The official Opposition are willing to participate in those discussions. Indeed, we have suggested them for a long time. We believe that they could do something to improve the decisions which, in Northern Ireland, vitally affect the quality of everyday life.

I believe that the time has come to hold those discussions. I hope that they will be attended by all the parties represented in the House. Any party could attend without renouncing its position on any other issue. Attendance would not entail any concession or treachery to any cherished opinion. It would not even entail a commitment to future discussions. If we found that we enjoyed the experience of talking together, it might become a habit, and that would be another option.

If any party declined to commit itself, even to the adventure of talks about parliamentary procedure, and chose to absent itself from those discussions, I do not believe that that should constitute a veto over their being held, nor on implementing any agreement to which they might lead. Abstentionism is the right of those who choose to practise it. It is not a denial of the rights of other people. That is something which could be done. It could begin now. I recognise that that is a limited proposal. If we are agreed about the need, for the moment, to make the best of direct rule, I believe that we are also agreed that that is only the first step in a long journey.

The problem about the way forward is not a shortage of ideas for constitutional innovations. The debate is not about constitutional devices. The issue is not whether one constitutional arrangement is better than another. People from two traditions have been brought, by history, into a position where they inhabit one territory. There is no geographical boundary line which could separate them. There is no re-partition which would leave the two peoples on opposite sides of the line. Their home is a home which they are compelled to share. The only question is whether they can live together in peace or whether they are condemned for ever to regard each other as enemies. That is not a constitutional question.

There is no shortage of constitutional devices by which two groups, inhabiting a single territory, can jointly take decisions on how to administer their affairs. Those making virtually any proposal in that context can point to an instance in the history and geography of mankind where it has already been tried and has worked. Whatever is lacking, it is not constitutional ingenuity. The question is not whether some different constitutional plant could grow and flourish. The question is, what is it about the soil which causes every plant to wither?

Like the Secretary of State, my visits to Northern Ireland are not always confined to the corridors of power. I go to places which would surprise you, Mr. Deputy Speaker— [Interruption] I promise that I shall riot elaborate. Sometimes I meet not just politicians and community leaders but those who would describe themselves as ordinary people. All the people I meet tell me that their greatest yearning is to live in peace. They do 1223 not want to have to look over their shoulders every time they go to an unfamiliar part of town. They do not want to have to bite their nails every time their children come home a few minutes late. Yet, collectively, they seem to be condemned to perpetual confrontation. If there is to be peace, it cannot be imposed by people from London or Dublin. It is a search which can be conducted only by the people of Northern Ireland. It cannot be achieved by asking who will win and who will lose. It will not represent anyone's ideal solution. Peace has a price, and it is a price to which everyone must contribute. Nothing is more idle than wanting to live in a peaceful world while we continue, individually, to be quarrelsome.

I believe that there are some ways in which this House can help in the quest for peace. There are ways in which the Republic can help. We could begin by asking whether it is possible to create a climate more conducive to consensus. What is the reason why, in Northern Ireland, one issue seems to drive all the other questions off the agenda—questions which most of us would see as more pressing? It is not that the questions which are the subject of political debate elsewhere do not arise in Northern Ireland. It is not that the economy is so flourishing that it does not require attention. It is not that the public services and the community amenities are operating so successfully that people are free to look for other things to argue about. The reverse is the case.

People who have been denied jobs, or whose jobs are so badly paid that they cannot give their families a decent life, may be tempted to look for scapegoats on which to vent their frustration. If there are not enough jobs to go round, they see their neighbours as rivals. It is harder to be generous on a falling market. I believe that we can demonstrate the advantages of co-operation in economic matters. That is why I call continually on the Secretary of State to tell us whether the Intergovernmental Conference is discussing those questions, and when he will be able to point to some results.

When the Anglo-Irish agreement was concluded, the Opposition said that it should be given a chance, because we believed that it could be the framework for discussion between the British Government and the Government of the Republic, that it could lead to action which would benefit all the people of Northern Ireland and would manifestly be seen to benefit them.

We do not believe that it is possible to argue that the Republic has no interest in what happens in Northern Ireland, and that what people do on one side of the border is of no concern to the other side. That is not true. It is not possible to argue that people who share a tradition have no legitimate interests in common with people of that tradition a few miles down the road. If people inhabiting the same island have nothing to say to one another but recrimination, everyone will suffer. If they seek actively to promote enmity between two parts of the island, they are bequeathing to their children a chilling legacy.

Of course, it takes two to agree. Of course, something depends on the Republic demonstrating that the fears expressed in such dramatic terms in certain quarters are illusory. It is not for me to tell the Republic how to conduct its affairs, but I have my views as to where its best interests will lie over the next few weeks.

What better vehicle could there be than the Anglo-Irish agreement for demonstrating how much the two parts of 1224 the island have in common? I confess that there was a moment when I allowed myself to hope that the two Governments would together find a way of saving the Northern Ireland gas industry. A great opportunity was missed. I was pleased that we were told in the joint statement by the Intergovernmental Conference earlier this week that those involved had discussed the importance of the main road between Belfast and Dublin and had agreed to explore the best way of improving the road link between Newry and Dundalk.

There is a need for public investment in roads and in infrastructure. Perhaps the public funds that have been saved by the dissolution which is taking place today could be devoted, in some measure at least, to that purpose. There are people eating out their hearts on the dole who could be working to meet the needs about which, apparently, the conference talked. They are people who live on the same island, whose needs are common needs. The enemies are want, squalor and idleness. All those people are fighting in that battle on the same side, as allies.

If, whenever we ask the Secretary of State what has been achieved by the agreement, he speaks only of security, that would be a mistake. [Interruption.] I see that he and his colleagues agree. It is not that security is not important but that, as we were reminded this week, by its very nature, one cannot tell people what has been decided or what has emerged from the discussion. If, within the measurable future, the Government cannot demonstrate some benefit to the people of Northern Ireland from the Anglo-Irish agreement, they will reap the worst of both worlds. They will have encountered the aggravation, the misrepresentation and all the imagined conspiracies and will not have reassured those who set their hopes on the agreement.

This is a short debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I know that a number of hon. Members hope to catch your eye so I shall make just two final points. One contribution which we who live outside Northern Ireland can make is to practise a self-denying ordinance. We can decide that, if we cannot impose peace, we at least will not do anything to increase the bitterness. If we cannot build bridges, we will not destroy them. If we cannot heal the wounds, we will not deepen them.

Critics of the Government have complained of the insensitivity of giving the Government of the Republic even a consultative role in Northern Ireland, because that might upset the susceptibilities of the Unionist people. I agree that the absence of consultation when that was done was less than sensitive. I hope that those same hon. Members will appreciate that a proposal for complete integration, treating Northern Ireland as though it were geographically situated between the Humber and the Wash, might offend the susceptibilities of the Nationalist people and even, I suspect, at least half the Unionist people.

The Secretary of State has spoken of the historical and cultural difficulties that might defeat an attempt to devise ways of integrating Northern Ireland into the administration of the United Kingdom. It has never been treated simply as part of the United Kingdom. For virtually all its existence its people have not actually sought that.

Assuming that it were feasible, that the people of Great Britain were to agree to the proposal and the House were totally persuaded, is it to be done only with the consent of the Nationalist people and the Unionist people, or would it be a solution which the people who live in Great Britain 1225 were seeking to impose on the people of Northern Ireland? Our debates may not always appear to be achieving a great deal. It would be tragic if they contributed to the divisions, bitterness and recriminations.

There is a message which could go out from the House, one on which we could perhaps all agree. Northern Ireland has had a bad press in Great Britain, especially in the past few months. Many people on this side of the water have lost patience with what has appeared as the intransigence of people in Northern Ireland—

§ Mr. Mallon

All the people of Northern Ireland'?

§ Mr. Archer

The hon. Gentleman has asked a relevant question. I was deliberately trying not to be provocative. He knows what my answer would be to his question but, if he insists on an answer, it is that the Unionist people have had a bad press on this side of the water.

§ Mr. Mallon

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for clarifying the position. I was not encouraging him to make an anti-Unionist remark. I was trying to encourage him to ensure that he stated that all the people of the north of Ireland are not against agreement, peace or a constructive way forward. That must be clearly understood. especially in relation to the way in which other political parties in the north of Ireland are claiming the term "the people of Northern Ireland".

§ Mr. Archer

The hon. Gentleman is right. I accept all that he has said and, in another context, I might actually have put that argument. He will see in a moment why I put it in the way I did. The hon. Gentleman is right—the Unionist people of Northern Ireland have had a bad press.

§ Mr. John Hume (Foyle)

The leaders have had a bad press.

§ Mr. Archer

I have met Unionist people in Northern Ireland who thought that they were not well served by their spokesmen.

It is perhaps ironic that some of the very virtues in the character of the Unionist people have contributed to that image — their passionate commitment to what they believe, their refusal to take the easy way out and their loyalty to their traditions, but much is going on in Northern Ireland of which Northern Ireland can be proud. There are people whose passionate commitment is to building a peaceful community. There are people demonstrating the success of integrated education. There are people holding dialogues across the divide in situations which make greater demands on their courage than anything we say makes on ours.

It is easy for us to debate these issues. Those people are carrying on the debate where it might easily have been silenced. They receive little recognition or encouragement. I believe that they will find a larger place in the history books of the future than they find in the news media of today. They are dismissed as visionaries but, if we are short on anything in Northern Ireland, it is vision. I hope that the House will do all it can to encourage those who seek to keep that hope alive. One day it may be justified.

§ Mr. J. Enoch Powell (South Down)

The Secretary of State has announced to the House in the form of the first of two orders which we are considering that there is to be no continuation in the foreseeable future of a Northern Ireland Assembly which was set up by the Northern 1226 Ireland Act 1982. That is a decision which came as a shock and even a surprise to hardly anyone in the Province. The extent to which it is accepted that that was a foregone conclusion might surprise even the right hon. Gentleman.

In the Stormont Chamber yesterday afternoon, the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) sitting opposite my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan. Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) said across the Dispatch Boxes., "The right hon. Gentleman and I will never sit again in a. Northern Ireland Assembly." It is not surprising that this conclusion in 1986 should be foregone when we remember that all the Unionist parties in Northern Ireland opposed the 1982 legislaton. The present Speaker of the Assembly was among those who voted with the rest of us against it Those who were most intimately concerned with Northern Ireland warned and foresaw that the outcome of that endeavour would be frustration.

There were two reasons for that, which can usefully be kept distinct. The first was that that Act created an Assembly which was given neither power nor responsibility, but over which was dangled the bait that it might perhaps have instalments of both if it could discover the undiscoverable, achieve the unachievable and if it could devise a constitutional way in which those who were elected to serve opposite political objectives could maintain that they had achieved, were achieving, or were contributing to the achievement of that which they had represented to their respective electors.

There was an essential falsity and impracticability in the basis upon which the Northern Ireland Act 1982 was constructed. The Assembly was set an impossible task. It was not impossible because of ill will, but inherently impossible in the circumstances which existed then and which exist still.

§ Mr. Hume

indicated assent.

§ Mr. Powell

I am glad to have the assent of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume), who never concealed his view on this matter, however much he was mistakenly abused for stating it.

There was a deeper reason why the Act, over which a veil is now being drawn, was foredoomed to failure and, that is—and I shall use a word which I will instantly qualify—the devolutionary context in which it was seen. I qualify that expression all the more because this afternoon the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State, in two vivid and remarkable passages in his speech, has taken the old, rather boring, antithesis between integration and devolution and given to both of them an interpretation which I believe is enlightening and useful. He has contrasted with the concept of integration the fact that British rights are available to British citizens under different forms of government, if we examine them, and under different parliamentary regimes in the different parts of the United Kingdom. Therefore, in a way he has liberated us from many of the more grotesque implications of a term which has been used more as a term of aggression than enlightenment in Northern Ireland debates. In referring to devolution—I shall return to this later—he referred to devolved administration in the Province, thus making one of the vital distinctions in this subject, the distinction between legislative and administrative devolution.

It is important to understand the background to the attachment to the aim of devolution which all 1227 Governments have professed since 1969 — since 1972 when they destroyed one devolved administrative structure in order to attempt to replace it with another, right up to 1985 when they wrote that aspiration into the terms of the Anglo-Irish agreement.

We know the reasons why, at the beginning of the section of the story—that is, in 1919 when some of us would say that what was mistakenly called the Northern Ireland state was created — it was regarded by the Government of the day as impossible that those who had not voted themselves out of the United Kingdom at the 1918 election should remain an integral part of the United Kingdom. Since we are dealing with a period in which the records are open, there need be no dispute or debate about what the motivation was. There was one very clear and definite reason why the people of Northern Ireland were told that they would have to have home rule whether they liked it or not, the acceptance of which Sir James Craig described as the "ultimate sacrifice" which they were called upon to make.

I shall not trouble the House with many quotations, but I think that it is worth putting on record one or two from the Cabinet meetings of December 1919 when the form of the Government of Ireland Act 1920 was being decided by the Lloyd George coalition. The minutes of the Cabinet stated that a united Ireland with a single parliament was the ultimate aim of the Government's policy. The Cabinet said that the Bill had to be a measure which paved the way for a single Irish parliament". A week later the Cabinet said that the Bill should be framed bearing in mind that its "ultimate aim" should be the unity of Ireland.

From 1920, the insistence of the mother country upon home rule in that part of the United Kingdom was motivated by its determination that the interests and political purposes of the United Kingdom required that sooner or later, in some way or other, there should he an all-Ireland state. That is the framework and the background against which, quite inevitably and understandably, the profession of a determination to secure devolution in Northern Ireland was bound to be viewed in the Province.

Like its predecessors, this constitutional experiment has come to its predicted fate. As the House proceeds to approve the draft order, as I am sure it will, there is one practical point I should like to put to the Secretary of State. Very shortly we are going to put an end to the life of the Assembly. He did not announce the precise date and I appreciate that that may depend upon the convenience of the sovereign in relation to the holding of the necessary Privy Council. However, he can ensure that when the date is fixed it is such as to enable there to be courteous, reasonable and understanding treatment of those who, for a number of years, have given their services to this institution. There have been some unpleasant rumours of less than courteous and considerate treatment being intended.

§ Mr. Tom King

indicated assent.

§ Mr. Powell

I am glad to have the Secretary of State's assent, and I am sure that he will see that that does not happen. I know that it could not possibly be his intention.

1228 With that behind us, we ask, "What next?" Part of that debate is laid before the House in terms of the Northern Ireland Act 1974 (Interim Period Extension) Order, but the whole of the debate is not summed up within the confines of that order. Last week, in answering questions after his statement, the Secretary of State recognised candidly that there was a certain absurdity in a form of government in which, between the Secretary of State and his Department and district councils which were little more than parish councils, there was no administrative machinery with any democratic input from the people who were governed. The right hon. Gentleman is quite right and he is right in saying that there cannot be British rights for British citizens, in the connotation which he gave to that phrase unless there is in Northern Ireland, as there is in the rest of Great Britain, representative local government in the sense of representative administration. — [Interruption.] I am not such a pessimist as the hon. Member for Foyle.

§ Mr. Hume

I would advise the right hon. Gentleman that he has a very short memory. Those hon. Members who argued for integration and for giving power to local authorities in Northern Ireland on the same basis as on this island also have short memories. It is precisely because of serious abuse of those powers by local authorities in Northern Ireland that we find outselves in our present position. The parish councils to which the right hon. Gentleman referred have shown no sign that they have changed their attitudes in any way. I certainly would not want to be a member of the minority community in Northern Ireland in one of the council districts if they had substantial power over planning, housing, education or any other serious matter.

§ Mr. Powell

My experience and observation are not in line with that of the hon. Gentleman.

§ Mr. Hume

I only live there.

§ Mr. Powell

Well, I have three district councils wholly or partly in my constituency. In one there is a large majority and in another a small majority which is anti-Unionist and in the third there is a Unionist majority. Within the scope of their administration those councils behave as effectively and their officials administer as effectively as in the corresponding bodies in Britain. I see no impracticability if the anxieties persist which the hon. Member for Foyle has expressed, in a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland being given powers of intervention and regulation which exceed those — though they are considerable and have recently been increased—which are held by central Government in Britain.

I make two suggestions to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the context of the glaring gap which he rightly identified. First, he should move gradually and not in bold leaps. We have a structure, to which the hon. Member for Foyle has not been entirely fair, on which it is possible to build, having due regard to the circumstances and to the past, which has been mentioned, and to the anxieties. If we do that we shall be encouraged to go further. If rolling devolution was a failure we might well find that rolling local government was a practical success.

In that context I ask the Secretary of State not to be dismissive—I know he did not intend to be—of what was said last week by his hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson). A great deal can be said 1229 for an outside mind or minds being brought to bear upon the structure of local government in Northern Ireland. After all, there is widespread respect for the architect of what we now in retrospect see to have been the ill-fated reorganisation. or destruction, of local government which occurred in the last year or two of the Stormont Administration. The Secretary of State could well derive assistance, in presentation and in substance, by seeking outside advice, clearly respectable and valued advice, upon the directions in which local government could be developed in the Province. That is one of the directions in which we must work.

Another direction in which we must work is more directly connected with the second order which is before the House. When a previous attempt at what lay behind the purposes of the Northern Ireland Act 1982 collapsed in 1974 it was natural — I make no complaint of the Government of the day for having done so— that the 1973 legislation what I might call the Sunningdale power-sharing legislation—was put into cold storage for the time being. A system of administration, which, as the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West (Mr. Archer) said, no one would willingly invent or commend, was installed on a year's purchase while people reassembled their notions after the collapse at the beginning of 1974.

In 1986 neither the Secretary of State and the House nor the political parties in Northern Ireland seriously believe that in the foreseeable future there is the prospect of either the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 or the Northern Ireland Act 1982 producing the basis of a devolved administration in the Province. Yet nevertheless, year after year, for fear of admitting what everyone knows and what everyone privately, and often publicly, admits, we continue to re-enact a system of government which is intolerable in a part of the United Kingdom and which is deeply resented by a large part of the people of Northern Ireland. It is resented not only by the Unionists, but they live in the part of the United Kingdom where the laws are made — this is the most sensitive impact of a Government upon the citizen—by the Secretary of State in a form which is neither satisfactorily debatable nor amendable.

We must find a way in which the making of the laws in Northern Ireland can be brought into an acceptable accord with the ways in which the laws are made for the rest of the United Kingdom. It may well be that the models of Wales and Scotland will be an example of the way in which the different circumstances in Northern Ireland, which the Secretary of State mentioned, can be taken into account. His analysis of that provided the agenda for considerable reflection, discussion and work upon that theme.

For the time being I do not dispute that, lacking foundation, or at any rate the foundation being cluttered by the legislative wreckage of 1973 and 1982, it is unavoidable that the Secretary of State should bring the order forward. I hope that it will be the last full year that the regime runs. I hope that in the following 12 months a way will be found, which will be honourable and acceptable to all in Northern Ireland, whereby the legislation which is imposed upon the citizens of Northern Ireland is enacted in a manner which is felt to be as fair and as democratic as the manner in which legislation is enacted for Wales, Scotland or the rest of Great Britain.

1230 Both the contributions of the Secretary of State and of the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West have taken us further in this debate than we have yet been in the years since 1972—and, I am tempted to say, since 1969. To some extent, I have taken a leaf out of the book of the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West in putting considerable emphasis on getting things in the immediate future into a tolerable condition, so far as we can do so without incurring dangerous symbolic implications and impacts upon the more distant future.

In this debate we are essentially considering how we carry on and what work we shall do together in the next 12 months. There is material for that in the two speeches which we have heard from the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West and the Secretary of State this afternoon.

§ Mr. Seamus Mallon (Newry and Armagh)

For people who have experienced a debate such as this in the Chamber before, there must be a sense of deja vu. This must he the 12th or 13th year that this sort of debate has taken place.

§ Mr. Hume

The 14th.

§ Mr. Mallon

It is my first experience. For that reason I want to make three points.

First, I am sad that once again an initiative in Northern Irish terms has failed. I say that as one who opposed the setting up of the Assembly and its continuance and considered its ending with some satisfaction. I am sad because I witnessed the initiative and was part of it in 1974. I was also part of it in 1976, the period to which the right hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Powell) also referred. I see the same initiative again in 1986. I ask myself essentially the same question as the right hon. Member for South Down asked himself from an entirely different perspective: is the approach to this problem the right approach or is it hanging on to an approach that has failed and may even continue to fail? That is the key question that must be at the back of all our minds at present.

I disagree fundamentally with the right hon. Member for South Down. He made a very pertinent and erudite speech but he missed a point, which is the one certainty in the entire position in Northern Ireland, which we ought never to miss. It is that if we could persuade every Nationalist living in the north of Ireland to leave or to go to the shores of Lough Neagh one morning and jump in,, the problem would be over. The problem would then have redefined itself in terms which would allow for an accommodation, either within an integrated British sense or within an integrated Irish sense. On the other hand, if' we could encourage all Unionists to go to the shores of Belfast Lough on a designated morning and jump in at the same time, the problem would again he over.

Neither of those two things will happen. Nationalists will not leave Northern Ireland, nor will Unionists. We are left with the one certainty that whatever way we try to grapple with the problem, from whatever dimension we approach it, we arrive at one constant point, and that is that we have two sets of people living in a small part of a small island who must accommodate each other within the smallness of their political lives or, if they will not live together, die apart. That is the reality which is not catered for by the theses which the right hon. Member for South Down has so eloquently postulated.

1231 Irrespective of one's theory and the dimension from which one looks, and irrespective of the ideological standpoint one begins at, that is the crunch reality and the one with which we must all deal, whether we favour, as I do, unequivocally, the creation of Irish unity, whether we favour integration or see devolution as perhaps a halfway stage to either, or perhaps as a way of partially washing our hands of the problem.

If that is the reality, we must not shirk it. From whatever ideological point we start, we are being irresponsible if we do not look at that reality and see how we can cope with it. People must ask themselves this question: if there was integration of the type advocated by the right hon. Member for South Down, and the various pieces of machinery whereby legislation could be vetted and judged here, would that of itself be a contribution towards allowing the two sections of people to live together in the way that they must?

That would take one thing from them — their own constructive element in building that part of their lives. We would be catering for a situation which, I must confess, I find to some extent condescending and humbuggish — that if we hand down to the people of the north of Ireland that which is properly examined here it would be satisfying to the people of Northern Ireland. Anybody who knows anything about both sections of the community there would know clearly that that would not satisfy them because it would remove from them the one great dynamic —the means to create their own future in a way that is uniquely Northern Irish. The Secretary of State has been giving his views on the north of Ireland in relation to this island, but the one thing that we can say with some certainty is that it is uniquely different.

Let me make a further point on using the council structure as the basis for an administrative structure in the north of Ireland. I have belonged to a district council since the creation of the present local government structure in 1973. It is not in the constituency of the right hon. Member for South Down. In those 14 years, not only have I not had access to power within that council—power to do things or to prevent things being done — I have not been successful once in 14 years in being elected to a subcommittee of that council. The work of sub-committees ranges from placing children's playgrounds on housing estates, collecting bins to sometimes assuming responsibility for burying the dead. That gives a fairly accurate assessment of how local government is still working in a very partial way.

Let there be no doubt about it. We are are not talking of parish councils. That is a folksy type of idiom and is inaccurate. I speak as a parish councillor. That terminology would be resisted in political terms by the political representatives of the Nationalist community because not only have we seen what happened in the past but we are seeing what is happening to this very day. Look at Craigavon, Armagh and Ballymena. Look all round the councils of the north of Ireland. Anybody who would even toy with the notion of making those the basis of an administrative structure would be very foolish indeed.

There is a spurious argument, which has been expressed many times, that the Assembly, the wind-up of which we are now discussing, should not be wound up because it gives a platform to those people who are using it. My party and its leader regarded the Assembly from the word go as 1232 something which could not succeed because, as the right hon. Member for South Down pointed out, it had not the power of decision. It could not decide on anything whatever. Again, he missed the basic point that that type of political condescension does not attract people in Northern Ireland. We said then it was a white elephant and it was. Subsequently, I said that not only was it a white elephant but it had become a rogue elephant as it charged its way into the telephone exchange and blasted itself out of existence. I could even stretch that analogy further and say that it became "Buzby babes" overnight as it put itself out of business.

§ Mr. Henry Bellingham (Norfolk, North-West)

Might the hon. Gentleman and his party consider going back into the Assembly if a fresh order created new elections to that Assembly, if the conditons were right?

§ Mr. Mallon

My party, as its leader has said consistently, is prepared to enter into discussions to reach agreement about what will take place in the north of Ireland and, having reached that agreement, then to go from a position of strength to the electorate to seek a mandate, and then to go into any Administration with the strength of that mandate behind us. In that way we could tackle problems which are almost insurmountable and which would require the weight of that mandate to enable them to be tackled. That is our position and will be our position.

There has been much discussion of the Anglo-Irish accord. I do not want to go into the details or workings of it, or even the non-workings of it, but it has done one thing which is crucial to the resolution of our problems —it has posed two choices. It has posed the question to Unionism and to sections within the Unionist community: "Can you live with the concept of equality and justice for all people in the north of Ireland?" Until that key question is answered positively, there will not be a proper solution. Devolution will fail in those circumstances, integration will fail in those circumstances, and every other approach will fail until, within the machinery set up by both Governments, the Unionist community at large can say that it can live with the principle of equality for all and with the principle of justice for all.

§ Mr. J. Enoch Powell

The hon. Gentleman appears to have forgotten the warning that he gave at the beginning of his speech. The question is not simply whether we can live with equality and justice, but in what state we are to live in equality and justice with all the other members of that state.

§ Mr. Mallon

I can tell the right hon. Gentleman clearly the basis on which the community that I represent wishes to live within that state. There is only one basis and that is as equals under a proper system of justice—nothing else. If we have to continue to live within the north of Ireland, if the creation of Irish unity, which I want to see happen, will not happen, as I accept, next week, next year, or perhaps even the year after, I want to live as an equal with a proper system of justice. That is the challenge which has been thrown down to the Unionist community in Northern Ireland. It has not yet been answered and, until it is, none of the attempts being made will come to fruition.

If those twin aims of the Anglo-Irish accord are realised, if the British Government have the courage and the will to carry through the much needed changes that will 1233 realise those aims, and if the Irish Government also have the will to face the challenges of those twin aims of equality and justice, Northern Ireland as we know it will be changed. Unionism as we know it will become an anachronism. Nationalism, as it has always been defined, will become almost an anachronism as well. The political faces of both communities will be changed. The events of the next six months will prove whether that challenge can be met by the communities of Northern Ireland. the political parties in the United Kingdom, or the Government of the Republic.

§ Mr. Julian Amery (Brighton, Pavilion)

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that the Assembly is not dead. I suppose that it is in a coma. He reminded me of certain companies in California which advertise the facility for popping one's loved ones into a refrigerator and bringing them out again at a later date.

However, in this debate we are burying not the Assembly but the policy which has been pursued by successive Secretaries of State since the abolition of Stormont. As I understand it, that policy rested on devolution based on power sharing and an Irish dimension. It has been pursued energetically, consistently and in an undeterred way by five Secretaries of State. I do not know whether they were the right men for that job. The political climate of Northern Ireland is very different from the Machiavellian gentility of the usual channels here, or from the passive broad acres of East Anglia. I do not know whether it was a good idea for three ex-Chief Whips and two East Anglian country gentlemen to do the job, but I am not sure that anybody could have done it, because there is a basic inconsistency in the formula of devolved power sharing and a foreign dimension. There are few examples of successful power sharing. The Lebanon was often cited as one of the best. I played some part in designing a power-sharing constitution for Cyprus. However, the ruins of both are apparent to all.

The introduction of the Irish dimension was bound to be fatal simply because it meant that the Irish Minister would be supporting the minority community, while the Secretary of State, as was his duty, had to take note of the interests of all of the Province. He could not be the supporter of the majority, and so the concept was an unequal one from the beginning. That policy has been tried and has failed miserably. Sunningdale failed because the Irish dimension was too much for the majority to swallow. The Assembly failed because the SDLP found that the Irish dimension was not enough, and Hillsborough has been too much for the majority.

It is time to recognise that this concept cannot work because it is strange to the Unionists, it is not conciliatory to the Nationalists, and, meanwhile, the IRA continues to go about its deadly business.

The Secretary of State said that he still stood by the policy because it is logical. Maybe it is, but Ireland is not known as the home of logic. The policy has clearly failed and the speeches that we have heard from distinguished right hon. and hon. Members representing the Province show that they are completely unreconciled to that basic concept. Nothing is more dangerous in politics than to he tied to the practice of what is obviously a dead policy. After 15 years we need a new approach, but for the moment it must continue to be direct rule.

1234 My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State discussed the decision to suspend the Assembly, and talked about local government being at present no more than parish committees. Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State could follow the advice of the right hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Powell) and move gently towards something else. Improved arrangements for the transaction of Northern Ireland business could perhaps be pursued here, in the Palace of Westminster. The block presented by the Hillsborough arrangements still remains and I urge my right hon. Friend to put it on the back burner, and to try to limit it for the time being to trans-border security.

The issues at stake are complex and I am sure that the Minister will understand my view that they are by no means limited to Northern Ireland. It is almost 100 years to the day since Joseph Chamberlain and Hartington broke up the Liberal Government in order to stop Gladstone's onward career towards home rule. They realised that such a course would lead to the break up of the kingdom. As a result of that remarkable Cabinet crisis, an alliance of the Liberal Unionists and Conservatives was formed. It stood the country in good stead in the years that followed. Hon. Members on this side of the House, in believing that their policies were right, and that the policies of the Opposition would have been disastrous, were often able to continue with their work, thanks to the support of the Unionist party.

It is not necessary to do much crystal gazing if one looks at the public opinion polls, but my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and her colleagues might need to have the support of the Northern Ireland Unionists, not just to carry out policies relating to Northern Ireland, but to carry out those policies relating to national security, defence and the economy which we believe are vital to the future of the United Kingdom. British statesmanship requires that we give the highest priority to ending the estrangement between our party and the Ulster Unionists.

§ Sir John Biggs-Davison (Epping Forest)

Hon. Members are always glad to listen to the right hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Powell). I had hoped that he would bring with him today his colleagues in the Ulster Unionist party. This is a new situation, and as such perhaps it could have been the occasion on which the Ulster Unionist party as a whole recognised that the Union must be defended in the Parliament of the Union.

Perhaps it is less surprising that those hon. Members are not present because this debate follows hard upon yet another meeting of the hated Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. Dr. Garret FitzGerald is a humane statesman and must therefore share the concern of Her Majesty's Government at events in the Province since the Anglo-Irish agreement was concluded at Hillsborough. If Her Majesty's Government wish to resume contact with the Ulster Unionists, and if the Irish Government wish to contribute to a better relationship between the north and south, and between the Republic and the United Kingdom, dealings between the sovereign Governments of these islands should be conducted not within the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference but within the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Council. The latter was there previously and could equally well perform the functions intended by the two Governments, including 1235 discussion of the Belfast to Dublin road to which the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West (Mr. Archer) attaches importance.

The Secretary of State was looking forward to yet another Assembly. I do not, unless it is perhaps a regional council. The right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West said that the Assembly was a waste of money, yet he voted for it while I did not. I have looked up the relevant information and it took 98 hours and 14 minutes of parliamentary time for the Northern Ireland Assembly Bill to become an Act. My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) drew a telling comparison with the other Assemblies that were once proposed for other parts of the United Kingdom. He said that a referendum was required by the House before such Assemblies could become effective.

§ Viscount Cranborne (Dorset, South)

My hon. Friend will no doubt remember better than I that at the time of the Sunningdale agreement the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland made a clear statement that nothing would be undertaken without the clear approval of the majority of the inhabitants of Northern Ireland. What happened to that democratic commitment in the context of the Anglo-Irish agreement 13 years later?

§ Sir John Biggs-Davison

No doubt a reply to that question will come from the Treasury Bench before the debate is concluded.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State courteously gave way to me when I intervened about the work of scrutiny carried out by the Assembly. My right hon. Friend said that it was far better for that task to be carried out in Northern Ireland because more local people could then be involved. But if that is so, the same argument must apply to Scottish and Welsh legislation. However, I do not think that my right hon. Friend wants to set up Assemblies in Wales or Scotland.

When I was taught the principles of war, I was told never to reinforce failure. However, the Government seem to have reversed that maxim in relation to their Northern Ireland policy. The devolved government that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State still seeks cannot be achieved in a form that is acceptable across the community, or to the House. When will the Northern Ireland Office understand that no term can be put to terrorism, and that Northern Ireland can never settle down, when will it understand that Unionist Ulster cannot be brought to applaud and assist the development of the "unique relationship" with the Irish Republic without fear of betrayal, when Ministers and mandarins continue to deceive themselves and impose their short-lived experiments and—as the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West said—constitutional devices?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State apologised for the renewal of what we call direct rule. The right hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Powell) made stringent criticisms of the way that it operates. But public opinion polls show that direct rule is the second choice of most people in Northern Ireland. Perhaps a general agreement on second best is better than no agreement at all. Moreover, direct rule made democratic through local government equals integration.

We have always honoured Airey Neave in this House. But perhaps it would be better to honour him by 1236 considering the policy that he put forward than by merely paying tribute to him in words. I shall not be found guilty of the bad taste of citing any Conservative and Unionist party manifesto in this connection, but I should like to quote just a few of Airey Neave's words. They were prescient. because they anticipated the new Ireland forum and what followed it. He was addressing Conservatives in Maldon, Essex, in May 1978, and he said: Recent attempts to seduce the whole community of Ulster into a Federal Ireland, and similar unpractical dreams, are doomed … We believe nonetheless that both sections of the community would benefit from restoring to Ulster an upper tier of local government". We have heard all the arguments about the undesirability of enlarging local government in Northern Ireland. The Catholic dustbins of Lisburn have entered into the mythology of nationalist grievance. But we expect Ministers, especially powerful Ministers such as the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, to hash bigotry, just as we expect Ministers in other Departments to act against political discrimination and local government mismanagement—of which there is plenty in some of Great Britain's big cities. But we know why the Government will not enlarge local government: the SDLP does not want it. Incidentally, there is no SDLP Member in the Chamber.

We are told that we must get rid of the Unionist veto on progress in Northern Ireland. But there seems to be more of a Nationalist veto than a Unionist veto. Why does the SDLP object to enlarging local government? Plenty of SDLP councillors would welcome an enlargement of their functions. Many of them are doing a good job for their people and for the community as a whole, and would like to do more. Indeed, I pay tribute to many Nationalist-dominated authorities which have treated Unionists in a spirit of co-operation. But the SDLP objects, because integration— to use the short word—arrests any slide into the south. I accept that the SDLP wants devolved government, but on its terms.

Northern Nationalism is a legitimate opinion to hold, which we should respect. I certainly do. That Nationalist opinion could be allowed expression through further border polls or, preferably, by the question put in the plebiscite of 1972 being added to ballot papers in elections in Northern Ireland, so that there can be continuing consultation with the people of Northern Ireland. If the SDLP or any other Nationalist party could convert their countrymen in the Province to a united Ireland, we would not stand in the way of that.

There are many Irish Nationalists in cities on this side of the water, and they have learnt to live as a respected part of the British family. They are a minority in Great Britain, but a larger minority in Northern Ireland. What is so distressing about every futile political initiative is that its message is, "There you are. You are separate communities. Stay in the ghettoes." Every political initiative, including the Anglo-Irish agreement, has institutionalised the sectarian divide. Many Catholics want the Union. However, at elections they are almost compelled to choose between parties whose aspect is tribal.

We must establish equal rights, equal citizenship, and full administrative devolution under the sovereignty and protection of Parliament. It follows— I think that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are on common ground here — that the people of Northern Ireland should exert their proper influence at the centre of 1237 power, here at Westminster, through the party system of the United Kingdom. and through political parties or alliances that correspond with those in Great Britain. That is the way forward, and no one has shown me any other.

§ Mr. Stephen Ross (Isle of Wight)

The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Sir J. Biggs-Davison) has made an attractive case but, as he will anticipate, I shall not go down his road. As a supporter of the initiative taken by the Secretary of State's predecessor, the right hon. Member for Waveney (Mr. Prior), I am saddened by the demise of the Assembly. However, it was right that that decision was taken.

There is no doubt that after its inception the Assembly did some useful work. I have many of the documents still on my hook shelves which show that the Assembly carried out useful work on social security and agriculture in Northern Ireland. I also take the opportunity to pay my respect to the hon. Member for North Down (Mr. Kilfedder) who, as Speaker, fulfilled his role in the Assembly with some distinction.

In recent months the magnificent facilities at Stormont have been abused. The Alliance withdrew and Stormont became a venue for weekly attacks on the Government at a not inconsiderable cost to United Kingdom taxpayers. It will now go down in history as yet another lost opportunity. However, the only realistic way forward for the Province must be through a devolved administration with the respective parties acting in partnership and possessing sufficient powers to make and implement important decisions. The siren voices—we have heard them already today and there will be more — calling from the Government Back Benches for total integration may satisfy a few hard liners but will do nothing to reduce tension. Furthermore, they will do nothing in the long run to help revitalise the economy of Northern Ireland. I know that that view is shared by many Unionists.

Northern Ireland is not unique in that respect. In my view, the restructuring of the whole of the economy of the United Kingdom is almost entirely dependent on the return of meaningful power and decision making to the regions, cities and counties of our country. I attended a meeting at lunchtime today with the development commission, which carries out great work in rural areas. The commission is not responsible to any elected authority. I wish that that similarity could be more widely understood in the Province. I recognise the role played by the Local Enterprise Development Unit and the Northern Ireland Development Board among others, but I believe that they should both be responsible to an elected authority.

Once again, the British Government must go back to the drawing board. Unless some willingness to make concessions and to co-operate is forthcoming from the various party leaders, no new initiative is likely, and Ulster will be the poorer for that. It is surely not beyond the wit of the leaders of society, and especially politicians, to get together and agree on a structure that gives both communities a fair share of responsibility in the daily running of the Province. Failure to make such concession can only mean continuing violence and death and leaves the local population with no hope for the future. What is more, 53.5 million people living in the rest of Britain will eventually and inevitably seriously question why they should continue to fund such a high proportion of the 1238 Northern Ireland budget when local leaders refuse even to sit down and talk to each other or to Her Majesty's Ministers.

We want to know how much longer we must wait before the political leaders in Northern Ireland put the future well- being of their country first. That is the future not only of Northern Ireland but of Great Britain, too. When will they accept the challenge to establish a power-sharing Administration which will, coi