SECOND DAY'S DEBATE

§ Mr. Speaker

As the House well knows, we had a rather late start today, because of statements, other matters on the Order Paper and points of order. I propose to put a limit on speeches of 10 minutes between 7 and 9 o'clock, because there is a very long list of right hon. and hon. Members who wish to take part in the debate. I hope that those called before 7 o'clock will not abuse their position, having been called early. I intend today to give some precedence to those who were conscientious in their attendance during the debate yesterday.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. John Lee)

In any democracy it is right that there should be a debate on how much of the nation's wealth is spent on defence, and how that allocated amount should be split between the various defence roles, including nuclear and conventional defence, and between the three services—or perhaps only two if certain of their Lordships in the other place have their way.

I welcome the contributions to the debate yesterday and look forward to further speeches from right hon. and hon. Members today. I should also like to pay tribute to the contribution from the Defence Select Committee, whose weighty and constructive report was published last week.

The Government are proud to proclaim their record on defence. The facts speak for themselves. Spending on defence has benefited from seven years of real growth since 1979 and the total budget for 1986–87 is some £18.5 billion. Of this, some £8.3 billion—or 45 per cent.—is to be spent on equipment for the armed forces, or virtually £1 million every hour.

We are buying a vast quantity of new equipment for the services and sustaining substantial employment in this country through our procurement spend. Nevertheless, as 856 my right hon. Friend acknowledged to the Defence Select Committee, there are some difficult decisions ahead as the defence budget moves to a period of slight real decline. However, there is no question of having to withdraw from any major commitment or significant part thereof.

United Kingdom procurement spending now takes up 45 per cent. of the budget — the highest figure in the NATO Alliance. It has risen from a modest figure of 34 per cent. in 1975–76. Unlike the previous Labour Government, who increased the equipment percentage of the budget at the expense of service men's pay packets, the present Government have increased defence spending, paid our soldiers, sailors and airmen a realistic rate of pay and also, since 1979, increased spending on procurement in real terms by one third or £2 billion. As my right hon. and hon. Friends said yesterday, the quality of our service men is more important even than their equipment; they are our greatest asset. I join my right hon. and hon. Friends in paying tribute to their professionalism.

I should also like to pay tribute to Ministry of Defence civil servants in Whitehall, the research and development establishments—which have a world-wide reputation for expertise — and others. Indeed, one of the annual engagements that I fulfil, which gives me great pleasure, is to officiate at the award ceremony of British Empire Medals to long-serving and meritorious employees.

The Government are firmly committed to the maintenance of the strongest defences for the United Kingdom. We are committed to the maintenance of an independent strategic nuclear deterrent—earlier this year we ordered the first Trident submarine, HMS Vanguard — and to improving and increasing the quality and quantity of conventional equipment for the armed forces.

We often hear arguments about Trident being the cuckoo in the nest of conventional defence improvements. That is simply not the case. The reality is that our existing expenditure on the strategic nuclear force is only some 3.5 per cent. of the budget. While expenditure on Trident is substantial, it has to be seen in context. Over the 20-year period of Trident's introduction into service, the procurement cost of just under £9.9 billion compares with expenditure on British forces Germany over a comparable period at current levels of £46 billion, or nearly five times the total Trident spend. Put another way, Trident's total spend over its 20-year life is about half the total defence budget in any one year.

Too often employment implications of defence spending are overlooked. Some 1.2 million people in the United Kingdom derive their jobs directly or indirectly from defence. It is time Left wingers in the official Opposition party realised the extent of jobs sustained. Indeed, individually many hon. Members opposite do just that when they come to see me, almost on a daily basis, leading delegations to lobby me and other Ministers on orders. Too often it is a case of one voice for the corridors of Whitehall and another for the Labour party conference.

Any attempts by the Labour party to reduce defence spending, if it ever came to power, would unquestionably impact on employment. Moreover, 90 to 95 per cent. of the equipment budget is spent in the United Kingdom, either on national programmes or on the United Kingdom's work share of collaborative programmes.

Indeed, it is interesting to observe that United Kingdom defence industries with a combination of substantial home spend and a demanding customer in the form of our armed services, spurred on by Warsaw pact 857 technolgical progress, have produced products of a quality and sophistication to equal any in the world. Contrast that with our dismal performance in the consumer field, and perhaps there are lessons to be learned. It just shows what can be done.

I should now like to turn to the main theme of my speech — the increased value for money in defence procurement. I shall come later to the equipment orders that the Government have placed and the main programmes of the three services.

Major credit for increased value for money in defence procurement must go to my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), who initiated many lasting changes in the way MOD thinks. In addition, my right hon. Friend was responsible for appointing Mr. Peter Levene, the Chief of Defence Procurement, to whom I pay tribute for his excellent work in tightening MOD's procurement and for making the Procurement Executive a more discerning, commercially minded, hard-nosed customer. I am only glad that we pay Mr. Levene a fixed salary, rather than a percentage of the savings he has brought about.

§ Mr. Dick Douglas (Dunfermline, West)

While the Minister is lauding the activities of the Procurement Executive, will he explain why yesterday, a few weeks before the contemplated order for frigates, the Secretary of State could not tell us the number of frigates that he is likely to order, far less the yards in which the orders will be placed?

§ Mr. Lee

I shall deal with the question of frigates later.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence is fully committed to our continuing efforts to get greater efficiency into our procurement spend.

I summarise the broad thrust of our initiatives under the acronym CCCPR — not the Soviet threat, but competition, collaboration, con tractorisation, privatisation, and rationalisation. I will deal with each in turn.

First, I shall deal with competition and our drive to achieve the best value for money. The percentage by value of contracts placed following competition or in a competitive environment has increased considerably over the past three years. In 1983–84 it was 38 per cent.; in 1984–85, 46 per cent.; in 1985–86, 64 per cent. That is an increase of about two thirds over three years, which the Public Accounts Committee and the Defence Select Committee have specifically praised. Competition has achieved demonstrable and highly significant savings. We estimate that competition savings produced about £100 million on the Warrior APC, £60 million on the basic trainer for the Royal Air Force and £20 million, including batch order savings, on three SSK diesel electric submarines.

On a more prosaic level, we ran a competition for the supply of bread and bread rolls. The best customer discount following the competition—the yeast expensive — was 42 per cent. lower than the retail price which previously formed the basis of the price.

§ Mr. Robert Atkins (South Ribble)

I was going to say that I would rise to the occasion. My hon. Friend talks about competitive tendering and the success of his programme. Does he accept that there is concern in some circles that when competitive tendering involves foreign countries tendering for equipment in the United Kingdom in order to reduce the price and make the deal more 858 potentially competitive, it can nevertheless have a detrimental effect on home-based industries which must provide their specifications for the tenders? Regarding royal ordnance factories in particular, in which I declare an interest, my hon. Friend will know that there is considerable concern about Belgium, West Germany and France competing for tenders in the United Kingdom in a way which royal ordnance factories cannot compete abroad.

§ Mr. Lee

I shall come to royal ordnance factories later, but I take my hon. Friend's point. I repeat that 90 to 95 per cent. of our procurement spend is spent in the United Kingdom.

§ Mr. Martin J. O'Neill (Clackmannan)

Will the Minister explain why competition was not applied to the refitting contract for the royal yacht Britannia?

§ Mr. Lee

In taking decisions on refits for the royal yacht Britannia and others, we must strike some sort of balance between the core programme for the royal dockyards and the amount that we can give to the private sector and make available through competition. The trade unions in Devonport entered into a virtual no-strike agreement with us and made it particularly attractive to put Britannia into Devonport.

We are also maximising competition at the subcontract level, and taking steps to make firms more aware of contracting opportunities, including, shortly, a fortnightly publication listing major invitations to tender and MOD contracts.

Over the past 10 years a regime of generous interim payments has ensured that in many cases firms have continued to receive reimbursement of costs and profit from MOD, even if projects have fallen behind and deliveries have been delayed. In the past we have made interim payments of up to 100 per cent. of costs incurred by a contractor, even including interim payment of profit. We intend to reduce these payments, and interim payment of profit will normally be discontinued. The essence of our new approach is to ensure that our contractors have a strong incentive to supply and perform on time. We demand a more direct relationship between defence spending and contractors' achievement. There have been no major awards of such contracts for two years, and they now account for less than 10 per cent. by value of MOD contracts.

I now turn to collaboration, which many hon. Members discussed yesterday, including my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith) who would like to be present this afternoon but is chairing a Select Committee.

Collaboration helps to increase the standardisation and interoperability of equipment in service with NATO's forces; enables us and our allies to make better collective use of the same resources available to us for defence; enhances the technological capabilities of our industries; and demonstrates the political will of Alliance nations to work together for our common defence. That is the background to the initiative taken by the European Defence Ministers in the Independent European Programme Group.

Before leaving collaboration, it would be wrong to ignore the European fighter aircraft. Project definition is proceeding satisfactorily on the basis of the aircraft 859 characteristics agreed last summer in Turin to a planned conclusion later this year, when decisions on the way ahead will be taken.

§ Mr. John McWilliam (Blaydon)

I hope that the Minister will not leave collaboration without telling the House whether he is satisfied that our artillery forces do not have FH70 shells because the Germans, with whom he is trying to collaborate, cannot make them.

§ Mr. Lee

I shall deal with the SP70 later in my speech when I discuss the Army programme.

I am pleased that the Select Committee on Defence in its report on the SDE86 welcomed the progress achieved on the collaborative front, but rightly noted that it would take some years for the savings from recent initiatives to accrue to the defence budget.

Thirdly, I should like to deal with contractorisation. It is our policy not to retain in the public sector any defence support activity unless this is operationally essential or unless there are demonstrable savings in such a course. We start from a position of asking why the Government are doing this. Examples of contractorisation in the Ministry of Defence are cleaning, laundering and some aircraft servicing. As the House will be aware, we are also embarking on the introduction of commercial management for the royal dockyards.

§ Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport)

I should like to ask my hon. Friend a question about the privatisation of MOD services. Is he aware that a number of Ministry of Defence workers in my constituency and elsewhere feel that they are not being kept fully in the picture by the Ministry of Defence about the way in which contractorisation is being implemented? As they are not told until very late in the day about how their jobs will be affected, they feel that they cannot plan their future. Will my hon. Friend do his best to try to inform them more fully about the future of contractorisation?

§ Mr. Lee

We try our best, but if my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) will tell me the name of the establishment, I will look into the matter to see what I can do to speed the flow of information.

The Dockyard Services Bill is currently progressing through another place, and the level of commercial interest in managing the dockyards remains satisfactory. We await responses to our invitation to tender from potential bidders at the end of this month. We expect to be able to announce the outcome by November and to have the new system up and running by April next year.

§ Mr. Douglas

How many?

§ Mr. Lee

The hon. Member for Dunfermline, West (Mr. Douglas), from a sedentary position, shouts, "How many?" He has a specific interest in Rosyth. I can tell him that we expect to have interest and specific tenders from three groups — Babcock Weir, Balfour Beatty Thorn-EMI and Press Offshore.

Fourthly, I shall deal with privatisation. There has been much debate recently on the future of Royal Ordnance plc, and the situation is still somewhat fluid. There is little I can add to the answers given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence on 18 June. He said: It remains my intention to privatise Royal Ordnance, and I am giving further consideration to the means of achieving this."—[Official Report, 18 June 1986; Vol. 99, c. 1034.] 860 In the meantime a lot is being done to make Royal Ordnance plc more efficient. Its range of products on display last week at the British Army equipment exhibition was very impressive, and I pay tribute to the firm's vigorous pursuit of export opportunities. That has the full support of my Department.

§ Dr. Keith Hampson (Leeds, North-West)

As my hon. Friend knows, there is great anxiety in Leeds. There has been much distress in the company. In view of that, can my hon. Friend explain what took place? On what basis was the change decided, because clearly the privatisation approved by the House will not proceed in the way that it was agreed? Is it because of the Challenger tank order, or are we definitely going ahead with Challenger?

§ Mr. Lee

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made the position clear. A number of factors were taken into account, and it was decided that the time was not appropriate for the flotation that we originally hoped for.

Finally, I shall deal with rationalisation. As part of efficiency drives, we look to ensure that the individual services do not duplicate facilities that could sensibly be undertaken on a unified basis. Successes in this area include catering training, parts of defence medical services and even the defence staffs of the Ministry of Defence itself. I should like to take this opportunity to announce that, having reviewed the proposed move of textile and clothing contracts work from Leeds to Glasgow in the light of comments from several right hon. and hon. Members and the Public Accounts Committee, I have decided that the work will remain in Leeds.

§ Mr. Spencer Batiste (Elmet)

Will my hon. Friend accept the thanks of many people in Leeds for the sound judgment that he, as a textile MP, has shown? It is sensible to leave the textile and clothing branch in Leeds and not to pursue the senseless moving of jobs from one part of Britain to another. I hope that as an engineering MP my hon. Friend will show the same good judgment when he considers the future of the royal ordnance factory at Barnbow and the seventh regiment of Challenger tanks.

§ Mr. Lee

I am grateful for the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet (Mr. Batiste) on the retention of the clothing operations in Leeds. There is nothing useful that I can add about the royal ordnance plants in Leeds, but obviously we will take all factors into account.

§ Mr. Robert C. Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne, North)

The Minister is not normally a devious character, but he was a lot less than frank with his hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-West (Dr. Hampson). If privatisation proceeds, will not Barnbow have to compete in open tender against companies like Vickers at Scotswood on Tyne? That is causing more than a flutter in the dovecotes.

§ Mr. Lee

We are taking all factors into account in considering the future of tank orders. At this time I have no more to say about that subject. It is my intention that the planned economies and the improved efficiency offered by the move from Leeds to Glasgow shall become priority targets for the Leeds staff.

Hon. Members may be forgiven for overlooking the small box on page 51 of the "Statement on the Defence Estimates" on energy efficiency. However, the Select Committee on Defence published a memorandum on this subject in its recent report, and I am grateful for this.

861 The MOD is playing a full part in the Department of Energy's campaign this year. The MOD is a major user and its non-operational energy bill runs at over £240 million a year. It is clearly sensible for the MOD to make the most of potential savings. We have already reduced our consumption by 30 per cent. since the oil crisis of the early 1970s, and, to give further impetus to improvements on energy efficiency, I have recently set up a steering group of senior officers to oversee implementation of an energy efficiency programme with a target of a further 25 per cent. reduction in the MOD's energy bill over the next five years.

I should like to say a few words about MOD support for defence exports. This is understandably an area where commercial confidentiality and the secrecy requirements of customers limit what can be said, but, as I said earlier, defence exports sustain 120,000 jobs in the United Kingdom and this figure is set to rise following the increase of 17 per cent. in real terms in sales last year to £2.9 billion. This is around 9 per cent. of the world market. I pay tribute to the work of our defence export services organisation and to our defence attaches overseas for assisting British industry to this achievement. These figures do not include the outstanding Saudi aerospace deal concluded last year.

I am sure that the House will welcome today's announcement that the Australian army has selected Land Rover to fulfil a £50 million order for a 2,900-vehicle requirement. That order was won in the face of stiff international competition.

§ Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North)

The Minister will be aware of much speculation in the press about the soundness of the Saudi order because of the fall in the price of oil. Can he give a categorical assurance that there is no question of that contract not going ahead?

§ Mr. Lee

I am not in the business of giving categorical assurances. The Saudi contract is not being renegotiated, as was suggested by the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) at Question Time yesterday. The fall in the price of oil has affected the payments for the contract, and an element of discusson is taking place about that.

§ Mr. McNamara

The Minister says that discussion is taking place on the question of payments. Will he confirm that there is no question of the deal falling through?

§ Mr. Lee

I have nothing to add to what I have said. With respect to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), we are talking about an extremely serious and major contract.

§ Mr. McNamara

That is right.

§ Mr. Lee

Defence Ministers and other members of the Government travel extensively in support of United Kingdom defence exports. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is a vigorous and effective supporter of these efforts and played a key role in the Saudi order. In the nearly three years that I have been in post I have visited many contries in support of United Kingdom defence exporters. I have been to Brazil, Ecuador, Indonesia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Singapore, South Korea, Switzerland, Thailand, Yugoslavia and Zimbabwe, and, of course I have visited a number of NATO countries. [HON. 862 MEMBERS: "Ha, ha!"] My travel is exceeded only by that of my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Mr. Atkins).

Ministers also support extensively the defence equipment exhibitions. This year has seen the highly successful British Army equipment exhibition, opened last week by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. During my visit, I unveiled two new armoured vehicles for the export market, and saw many exciting new British products, as did a number of right hon. and hon. Members.

I am sure that we are all looking forward to the best Farnborough air show for many years this September, with, hopefully, three new British aircraft making their flying debuts — the British Aerospace ATP, the Hawk 200, and the EAP.

§ Mr. Robert Atkins

As my hon. Friend knows, the EAP is the first British fighter for 30 years. Will he do his best, and ask his right hon. Friend to do his best, to ensure that, as with the Hanover air show where the Gennan Chancellor is present and the French exhibition where the French President is present, the Prime Minister will go to Farnborough to witness the flying of the EAP in competition with the Rafale, which is the French version, in order to give the seal of approval to a superb aeroplane which will be the follow-on to the European fighter?

§ Mr. Lee

I shall endeavour to draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to my hon. Friend's sensible suggestion.

§ Mr. Alfred Dubs (Battersea)

The hon. Gentleman referred to the British Army equipment exhibition. Cart he say a little about the nature of those sales, because some equipment appears to be going to countries that are using the equipment not to equip their armies, navies, and so on, but for internal repression? Some of the world's most oppressive regimes send their buyers to such exhibitions. Does that bother the hon. Gentleman?

§ Mr. Lee

We are extremely careful. We endeavour to play cricket and to be fair. Sometimes, we are criticised for that. All items of defence equipment that come up for export need to be licensed. Obviously, we take into account the individual circumstances of the countries which endeavour to purchase. If it is our view that the regime is questionable and that the arms would be used for internal repressive purposes, we do not grant an export licence.

§ Mr. Robert C. Brown

Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that when he plays cricket regarding such exports, he will play better cricket than the English team is doing at the moment?

§ Mr. Lee

I turn to the re-equipment programmes of the three services.

Since 1979, this Government have ordered 52 warships for the Royal Navy to a total value at today's prices of some £4.5 billion. These include nine frigates— as we have said before, it is our intention to announce further orders for type 23 frigates before the House rises—five nuclear-powered fleet submarines, four diesel-electric submarines, 21 mine counter-measure vessels and, of course, HMS Vanguard, the first Trident submarine. Seven of these vessels have been ordered since last year's White Paper including two further first-of-class vessels —HMS Sandown—a single-role minehunter—and RFA 863 Fort Victoria — an auxiliary oiler replenishment vessel. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced yesterday that tenders will be sought for up to four more fleet minesweepers.

Aside from the type 23 frigate orders I mentioned, I am happy to confirm to the House that it is our intention to make an announcement on future amphibious capability later this year. I acknowledge the importance attached to this capability by the Defence Select Committee and can confirm that the concept of an aviation support ship is included in our studies. I look forward to spending 24 hours at sea aboard HMS Intrepid later this month to see at first hand the work of the amphibious forces. Fearless and Intrepid are, of course, planned to continue in service until the mid-1990s.

We have not neglected new equipment for the Navy. The Sting Ray lightweight torpedo is now in service, and earlier this year we announced an order with Marconi Underwater Systems Ltd. for more than 2,000 Sting Rays, and development of the Spearfish heavyweight torpedo is continuing. Our existing heavyweight torpedo — the Tigerfish—has demonstrated a notable improvement in performance.

§ Mr. Peter Griffiths (Portsmouth, North)

The sinking of the Lowestoft by Tigerfish was followed by an extremely successful series of sea trials off the coast of Florida. Does my hon. Friend agree that that makes Tigerfish an extremely valuable contender for the contract for the United States navy for a conventional heavyweight torpedo, and that it would be desirable if all efforts, not only of the Marconi company but of our defence sales staff abroad, were made to assist in our gaining what would be a valuable break into the American arms market?

§ Mr. Lee

I am happy to do what my hon. Friend asks. We wish it well. We expect it to be an effective weapon. It deserves serious consideration by the United States navy. It will have the full support of our Department and our defence export services organisation.

§ Mr. Keith Speed (Ashford)

Is it not a fact that to maintain a frigate force of 50–I hope that it is 50 and not "about 50" —it is essential to order at least three new frigates a year, unless we are to have a Navy composed of aging Leanders and type 12s which are expensive in terms of fuel and personnel? Therefore, if three type 23 frigates were not ordered this year, all hon. Members and the public would regard with grave suspicion the maintenance of those 50 frigates.

§ Mr. Lee

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I have nothing further to add in terms of orders, except to say that the figure is not 50—I know that my hon. Friend will be sad about that—but is about 50. It is a question of both new orders and the length of time that we decide to run on ships, as my hon. Friend knows.

Our underwater navy — which currently comprises four Polaris SSBNs, 14 nuclear-powered fleet submarines, to be augmented by HMS Torbay around the turn of the year, and 15 diesel-electric submarines—is unquestionably the most powerful outside the two super-powers.

The last year has also seen developments in air defence for the fleet. We have ordered a further seven Phalanx and nine Dutch Goalkeeper close-in weapons systems for 864 fitting to Her Majesty's ships — bringing the total of these systems ordered to 30 Phalanx and 15 Goalkeeper. We have also ordered a further quantity of Sea Dart area air defence missiles.

The Royal Air Force is now deriving the benefit in front-line service of a major re-equipment programme. Already, nearly 500 RAF aircraft have been ordered since 1979. The centrepiece of this modernisation is the collaborative Tornado aircraft, the strike-attack variant of which—the Tornado GR1 — now equips nine RAF squadrons, three in the United Kingdom and six in Germany.

The Tornado GR1 is capable of the highest levels of performance, as was reflected very satisfactorily for the second year running by Tornado crews from 27 Squadron carrying off the prizes at the USAF strategic air command bombing competition. I give all credit to those involved.

The Tornado GR1's all-weather low-level performance will enable it to penetrate Warsaw pact air defences, should the need arise, and deliver its weapons with great accuracy.

This year has seen the acceptance into service of the prime weapon for the Tornado GR1—the JP233 airfield denial weapon. Also accepted into service this year was the improved version of the BL755 anti-armour cluster bomb —primarily for the Harrier force, but also portable on the Tornado. Studies into a next generation of anti-armour missile are under way.

The first two prototype Harrier GR5 aircraft were delivered to the RAF during the course of last year to commence trials. Production aircraft from the first batch of 60 aircraft currently on order will start delivery next year and a quantity of long lead items for a second batch have recently been ordered. The size of the second batch aircraft order will be decided towards the end of the year. We are also working closely with our American collaborative partners on the GR5 on jointly developing a night attack system for the aircraft.

In the maritime role, the British Aerospace anti-surface ship missile Sea Eagle was accepted into service last year by the RAF's Buccaneer force. The aircraft themselves are being given an avionic update to exploit the full capabilities of this effective missile.

I should like to turn now to air defence. I have mentioned already the successful progress of the collaborative EFA programme. For United Kingdom air defence, deliveries of the Tornado ADV fighter have commenced to the operational conversion unit at RAF Coningsby. The first of seven Tornado fighter squadrons will form next year, and we will be increasing the number of fighters available to the United Kingdom air defence by running on two Phantom squadrons even after all Tornado squadrons are formed. Recently 74 Squadron, with its Phantom F4J aircraft— bought from the USA to compensate for aircraft deployed to the Falklands—became operational. The conversion of Hawk aircraft to carry Sidewinder missiles and a gun to augment air defence assets in war was completed last month by British Aerospace—four months ahead of schedule.

On the ground, the programme to replace completely United Kingdom air defence radars and communications links is well advanced. There is significant financial support from NATO for this. Last year a number of new radars were accepted into service.

Back in the air, the extensive enhancement of air-to-air refuelling capability continues with the completion of 865 deliveries to the first squadron of VC10 three-point tankers and the delivery of the first three of the first batch of six TriStar strategic tankers. A further three TriStars have been bought and competitions will be held in due course for the conversion of these aircraft and more VC10s to tankers.

However, our greatest concern in air defence is airborne early warning. The House is well aware of the difficulties with the Nimrod AEW programme. The present position is that we have received proposals for AEW systems from six contractors, including GEC Avionics, Boeing, Grumman and Lockheed. Contractors have been asked to submit firm price bids by the beginning of next week, 7 July. There is nothing that I can usefully add at this stage.

§ Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough and Horncastle)

I do not want to pre-empt the decision which my hon. Friend must begin to consider on 7 July. However, in view of the reported comments of the Commander-in-Chief, Strike Command, that AEW is "unequivocally", to use his words, -a crucial part of air defence", will my hon. Friend, in considering the choice between the E3, Hawkeye, Orion, Nimrod and Cirumman, assure the House at least that he will be guided solely by the RAF's own criteria of cost, time scale and, above all, performance?

§ Mr. Lee

I am happy to say that the operational considerations are paramount. We must get the system that is necessary for the defence of this country. Obviously, cost comes into it, but the operational aspects must come first.

§ Mr. James Couchman (Gillingham)

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind in making his decision, which we all recognise is crucial, that if the Nimrod system is cancelled per se 2,500 jobs will be at risk, Britain will be excluded from AEW technology for perhaps 30 years and from the potential for exports worth perhaps £2 billion or more and the British taxpayer wil be faced with the cost of a write-off of perhaps £900 million?

§ Mr. Lee

Of course I understand my hon. Friend's constituency interest, and I say that in the nicest way. I make it clear that we are running a real competition.

§ Mr. Bill Walker (Tayside, North)

Will my hon. Friend remember that, in every instance in which the RAF has had foisted on it a political choice of aircraft or equipment, in time the choice has been found never to have worked and always to have been costly to maintain and operate? We must not make the same mistake again.

§ Mr. Lee

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. I well remember his comments on our decision to purchase the RAF trainer, the Shorts Tucano.

Turning now to the Army equipment programme, I am pleased to be able to report steady progress in improving and updating the Army's equipment, particularly its armoured vehicles, artillery, air defence, small arms and communications.

Starting with the most important piece of equipment, the mark 1 infantryman, we are equipping him with a new rifle—the SA80 — of which 175.000 were ordered last year and for which further tenders have just been sought from United Kingdom prime contractors. After some problems with setting up large-scale production, the weapon will, we hope, enter service in quantity early next year. In the meantime, weapons are being delivered to our training organisation.

866 Without wishing to give the impression of favouritism, it nevertheless seems clear to me that the gunners did rather well last year from Army orders. I recently announced the order for three regiments of the multiple-launch rocket system — a very effective depth -fire weapon that will give BAOR a major capability improvement over existing M107 guns. I am very pleased that most of the European offtake, including the United Kingdom's main production order, from this multinational programme will be made in Europe, bringing a total of £250 million of work to the United Kingdom alone. The MLRS programme represents a considerable success for European collaboration and transatlantic co-operation. It is a model for other programmes.

The gunners will benefit also from the battlefield artillery target engagement system—BATES—a kind of clearing house for potential targets, made by Marconi Space and Defence Systems, which was ordered last year. To gather information for BATES and other systems, we also ordered the Phoenix remotely piloted vehicle.

While on the Royal Artillery, I must mention also the SP70 self-propelled gun, whose name, sadly, is increasingly inappropriate and revealing as we go into 1986. The House will wish to be aware that the national armaments directors of the trilateral participating nations are currently reviewing the whole troubled programme and will shortly be putting recommendations to Ministers on the way ahead. From the United Kingdom point of view, we are looking for an effective system to enter service as soon as possible.

We have ordered also, since the previous defence debate, bomblet shells for the artillery which will offer a marked improvement in lethality and coverage over the present high explosive shell, in certain circumstances.

In the anti-tank role, the Challenger main battle tank, with much improved mobility and protection over Chieftain, is now entering service with BAOR in quantity. Six regiments have so far been ordered, and we are considering a seventh. Collaborative studies into the next generation main battle tank are at an early stage. For Challengers that get bogged down, we have ordered — after successful competition last year — a quantity of ARRVs. We hope shortly to place orders for the LAW 80 and collaborative development of the Milan successor., known as TRIGAT, in which, it is hoped, will involve eight European nations. That is expected to be launched at the end of the year. We expect to mount a variant of TRIGAT on the light attack helicopter, on which we hope shortly to sign an agreement to proceed with project definition based on the Al29 helicopter, with the Italians, Dutch and Spanish. In the meantime, more Lynx helicopters fitted with TOW missiles will be entering service during the next 12 months to enhance firepower in the central region.

While on helicopters, I should like to say that our studies of battlefield mobility requirements are being pressed ahead with dispatch, but I am advised by our military experts that a clear way ahead will not emerge before the end of year. For the Royal Corps of Transport, we hope soon to place orders for the DROPS logistic system. The signallers will also be pleased with the entry into service this year of the Plessey Ptarmigan trunk communications system for BAOR. Command and control will be further improved with the Plessey Wavell ADP system, which also entered service last year. As my 867 right hon. Friend the Secretary of State confirmed yesterday the production order with Marconi for the full width attack mine fuse for Barmine is being placed.

§ Mr. Lewis Carter-Jones (Eccles)

The hon. Gentleman went so fast that I did not realise he had covered helicopters. Is he suggesting that the AST404 has now gone out of the window? Is he aware that he paid tribute to the previous secretary of State for Defence—the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine)—who took a certain view on Westland? That view does not seem to accord with the one that the hon. Gentleman has presented to us. Does he realise that more than 15 months ago hon. Members on both sides of the House came to see him about the difficulties faced by Westland? Those difficulties still exist. Will the hon. Gentleman please bear in mind that Rolls-Royce has an interest in this and that the RTM322 engine is involved? There has been a very long delay on helicopers.

§ Mr. Lee

We are fully cognisant of the position at Westland. I was there within the past few weeks to commission the simulator for the EH101 helicopter. I can say nothing further at this juncture about helicopters.

§ Mr. Paddy Ashdown (Yeovil)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

§ Mr. Lee

Well, I give way.

§ Mr. Ashdown

I am sure that the House appreciates fully the hon. Gentleman's generosity in giving way so much. Will he be able to announce in the near future at least the order for the 15 Sea Kings, which has been in the pipeline for so long? I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises that the order is eagerly awaited. I am sure that he must be able to say when the announcement will be made.

§ Mr. Lee

I gave way to the hon. Gentleman because I appreciate his deep and genuine constituency interest in this matter. No decision has been taken on the size and timing of a future Sea King order.

Rounding off my remarks about the Army, I return to the mark 1 infantryman. To lighten his load, we have ordered 23 battalions worth of a combination of the GKN Warrior tracked APC which, with its Rarden cannon in the turret makes a major enhancement to infantry firepower together with the Saxon wheeled APC. All regular infantry units in BAOR will he mechanised with Warrior 4 which accords with the new mobile concept of BAOR defensive operations described in the "Statement on the Defence Estimates".

Also lightening the infantryman's load—in another sense — is the new mark 6 composite-material helmet now in service with units in Northern Ireland and which will gradually replace the unpopular old steel helmet in all three services and the Territorial Army. I am told that our troops are very pleased with the lighter and more comfortable new helmet, which also affords greater protection.

Our forces and the taxpayer are entitled to expect the most efficient and sensible use of our substantial budget. In the past I think it is fair to say that, as a generalisation, our defence industries have had a pretty good innings. We certainly want a prosperous and profitable defence 868 contracting sector from which to penetrate overseas markets, but the days of cost-plus contracts and bloated progress payments are gone.

A massive advance has been made by this Government on all fronts to tighten our management, our controls and the numbers we employ. Our task is not finished, but our three services and our nation should be proud of what we have achieved.

§ Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North)

It would be inappropriate if we did not start today by noting that it is the 70th anniversary of the battle of the Somme. On the first day of that offensive, we suffered 60,000 casualties, 20,000 of them dead. The occasion is a fine one for us to remember that war is too important to be left to generals and it is also important for us to remember the degree of responsibility that we have to our service men when we are conducting this type of debate. Therefore, I believe that the approach taken by both sides of the House is that, when we are looking at this matter, we are looking at what is rationally the best way of defending our country and protecting the lives of our service men.

During that battle, which was to last four and a half months, there were numerous uses of chemical weapons. They were either sprayed across the battlefield or fired by shells, and the results were always horrifying. As Wilfred Owen said: If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud". It is for that reason that I refer to the last sentence of our amendment which states that we will not, under any circumstances, accept binary chemical weapons in this country, we will not be party to their manufacture and, we will not agree to their being used, in so far as we are able to control it, by members of NATO.

§ Mr. Churchill (Davyhulme)

rose——

§ Mr. McNamara

I will give way to those people who were here for the debate yesterday. Time is limited. I have specifically reduced the amount I was going to say on chemical warfare because other hon. Members will want to make their point. I am merely establishing the principle of where we stand. I will give way to people who were here yesterday but otherwise I will get on with the debate.

§ Mr. Viggers

rose——

§ Mr. McNamara

I will not give way to that hon. Gentleman until he publicly apologises to me, as he did in private.

Yesterday, the Under-Secretary referred to the conduct and quality of the armed forces and the help being given to them. Yesterday he paid proper attention to the help that has been given with regard to low wages and said that a review has been established to look into the pay and allowances. The Opposition welcome that review. Whatever the excuses, ideas or rationale behind it, for service men in Germany the cut in the overseas allowance was a cut in their wages. It was a cut in the basis on which they had budgeted for themselves and their families and it was a real cut, no matter how much we may rationalise it in the House. Therefore, ways of trying to meet that sort of problem for our service men in Germany have to be examined carefully.

The Under-Secretary did not mention a matter which has been to the forefront in the press over the past three 869 or four weeks—allegations of colour discrimination in the armed forces, in their promotion policies and in their recruitment policies. Reading the replies we got from the Under-Secretary, one almost felt that one was in a "Catch-22" situation. The House will remember the background of "Catch-22" and the American airmen who felt that they had flown too many missions: Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was to ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. That is the same Catch-22 we have had from the Ministry in reply to the questions on racial discrimination. According to the Race Relations Act 1976, all recruitment and promotion is based solely on merit. However, ethnic minorities are hardly ever promoted. There is no discrimination in the armed forces because the Ministry of Defence is an equal opportunities employer, even though no ethnic minorities were represented in the trooping of the colour and none will take part in ceremonial duties outside Buckingham palace, except the Regiment of Ghurkas. Very few are senior NCOs and career officers within the armed forces.

If any discrimination did occur, we are told, the individual could have his case investigated under the redress of grievances procedure. Since no cases have been brought under the redress of grievances procedure, obviously there is no discrimination. As there is no discrimination, there is no need for this type of ethnic monitoring system to ensure equality. That was the rationale and reasoning behind the replies of the Ministry of Defence. However, it was the Prime Minister who put the bomb below the Ministry's position because she said in reply to me: The possibility of introducing ethnic monitoring to the armed forces is being considered as part of their routine duties by those in the Ministry of Defence who are responsible for service personnel, policies and practices."—[Official Report. Friday 20 June 1986; Vol. 99, c. 659.] If there is no discrimination or complaint, why should the Prime Minister think it is necessary to have a routine inquiry into it? Evidently, there is discrimination in the armed forces, so a deadlock is introduced.

It seems to the Opposition that a system must be set up to look seriously into ethnic recruitment within the armed forces, not on the basis of positive discrimination to ensure that people who are not capable or able to do the job are promoted, but to ensure that those who are capable and able are promoted. The argument that the Ministry puts forward—that all promotion is on merit—is insulting to the ethnic minorities in this country, because it suggests that they have no merit and are not worthy of being considered as senior NCOs and commissioned ranks. The Observer said that it is no longer enough for organisations such as the Ministry of Defence to say blandly that they do not discriminate, without providing monitoring evidence to support the assertion.

It is interesting that nearly 100 flag and field officers in the United States armed forces are black and Major-General Blunt, a black officer in the United States armed forces, said: Until the leadership of the British Army make the decision to open up the higher ranks of the Army to Blacks, there will he racial problems in the British Army. I would go so far as to say that there will be racial problems within the United Kingdom. If we regard the 870 armed forces as the first strength and first organisation to protect our country and our people, if blacks and Asians can be in that force it shows that they have been accepted as responsible citizens within our society. That is more fundamental perhaps than any of the other positive policies that are being considered in the United Kingdom.

The Under-Secretary made an interesting statement about the aviation support: vessel. It is an interesting concept. I do not want to pursue it too much now, but perhaps his right hon. Friend the Minister will address it when he replies. Is it merely a helicopter support ship? Is it the Arapaho proposal taken and examined or is it a mini-carrier? What exactly does it refer to?

In listening to the Under-Secretary I was also interested to hear what he had to say about the future of the European fighter aircraft. That point was interesting because, in the wording of page 7 of the report of the Select Committee on Defence, there is a query over the European fighter aircraft's future. In reply to a question from the hon. Member for Arundel (Mr. Marshall) the Secretary of State said: None of us would regard ourselves as fully committed or firmly committed at all to the next stages. That will have to be taken when it arises. But it is the case that in the next three years ahead there is a small amount of expenditure on development, experimental work, etc.". In discussions on this matter the Under-Secretary of State said that, when the Ministry comes to the end of project definition at the beginning of the autumn, it will then consider which course should be taken.

As I understand it, there has already been slippage in this matter. I was originally under the impression that the decision was to be taken at the beginning of the year and that we would then talk about firm orders and manufacturing capability. Now, because of slippage, I understand that the contracted parties are not likely to take a decision until the middle of next year at the earliest. Is that correct? What does that mean in terms of programme slippage? Does it mean, as the Opposition suspect, that there will be no firm orders until after 1988? If that is the case, that will represent yet another Government cut.

I was also interested to read about Skynet in the Estimates and the White Paper. As a result of the accidents involving Challenger and Aria ne, there has been a setback in our hopes for our satellites. It is important that we should have an independent defence capability. I would therefore like to raise the issue of HOTOL as a possible replacement for the two systems to which I have already referred.

Why has the Ministry of Defence not taken a more positive interest in the HOTOL development? If HOTOL is to have a future, the project must be important to our defence, as it will be able to get our satellites—which are necessary for defence — quickly, efficiently and cheaply into the sky.

We have been told that the Americans at NASA have decided to take on board the same concept and are pouring vast funds into the air orient express. We would like to think that the Ministry of Defence is as active in seeking European support for HOTOL as the French are in seeking interest in their Hermes project. HOTOL appears to be far more interesting and to hold out greater hope for our defence and for satellite communications than Hermes. It would also be a great step forward for the Ministry of Defence.

871 The Secretary of State was remarkably coy yesterday about star wars. That is understandable, as the whole scene has changed since the former Secretary of State for Defence trumpeted that we would have $1.5 billion-worth of orders for SDI coming to British industry. The retiring British ambassador to the United States was quoted in the Daily Telegraph on Saturday as saying: He rates Anglo-American negotiations over President Reagan's 'Star Wars' project one of the major achievements of the past four years, with Britain taking part 'not just as a contractor but a partner'. Great! Star wars will involve some $26 billion, which is an astronomical sum of money, and we will be involved as a partner.

However, it turns out that we are to be a limited partner, a partner limited to such an extent that the contracts that we have received arising from the secret memorandum of understanding are less than I per cent. or 0.5 per cent. of the $1.5 billion that was recently announced. In fact, the programme has been so disastrous that the Ministry has been forced to bring into the Department from outside industry Mr. Jim Powell of British Aerospace to rescue the British component of SDI as envisaged by the Ministry. Understandably, the Secretary of State was coy on this matter, and understandably, there was little discussion of it from the Under-Secretary of State when he considered its progress.

Frankly, the Opposition believe that British industry is correct to take a caustic and suspicious view of SDI. It is seen by British industry as little more than a confidence trick to drain away our technology and, perhaps more importantly, our technologists. It has been sold by President Reagan as a non-nuclear defence system. That is its logic. Yet it can only work, according to the Americans, if there are nuclear explosions in space to generate the necessary X-rays and laser beams.

The whole world now knows that SDI is dangerous and expensive nonsense. It is dangerous for world peace because it accelerates the arms race, and is dangerous for British industry because it can seduce away our technicians and technology. I am pleased that British industry is regarding it very carefully.

§ Sir Humphrey Atkins (Spelthorne)

If highly skilled people in this country want to take part in this kind of research and development and our firms do not take part, will these people not go to America anyway?

§ Mr. McNamara

They may indeed do that. Unlike the Russians, we do not have any prohibition on the free transfer of our citizens. If they wish to go to America, that is a matter for them. If they want to be seduced by the almighty dollar, there is nothing we can do about it, any more than we can do anything about the departure of our surgeons or physicians. However, there are compensations other than the size of one's bank balance for living in this country; otherwise, why would the right hon. Member for Spelthorne (Sir H. Atkins) and other hon. Members be here? We look forward to the time when my right hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock) is Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) is Secretary of State for Defence.

The Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State were very coy about Nimrod and the future of the early warning system, yet it is of the utmost importance to this 872 country. The Under-Secretary said that the tenders would be received by 7 July. Will they be the final tenders? How and when will the decision be reached? As I understand it, the Ministry of Defence is sending a team to Long Island in the second and third week of this month to consider what Grumman is doing at Bethpage. If the Ministry is doing that, how quickly will we get a decision? Will a decision be made this month as was originally envisaged?

§ Mr. Lee

indicated dissent.

§ Mr. McNamara

The Under-Secretary of State shakes his head, so it appears that the decision will not be taken this month. The Under-Secretary gave an under taking—

§ Mr. Lee

I hope that we will be able to announce a decision by the autumn.

§ Mr. McNamara

That is the kind of slippage that I welcome. I am grateful for the Under-Secretary's remarks and for the undertaking which he gave during the previous defence Question Time that the decision will be announced in the House. He gave that undertaking to me and I am grateful for it.

§ Mr. Lee

With great respect, the hon. Gentleman is not correct. I gave an undertaking to draw the hon. Gentleman's request to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I said that would be normal practice to make such an announcement in the House. However, I did not give a categorical assurance.

§ Mr. McNamara

So something will be slipped out in the summer or in the early autumn when the House is in recess and there will be no announcement in the House.

§ Mr. Donald Thompson (Calder Valley)

The hon. Member should not be cantankerous.

§ Mr. McNamara

I like to see Government Whips sitting on the Front Bench telling people not to be cantankerous, when all they do is mutter away, either criticising their own party for letting them down or criticising the Opposition for putting them in their place. Really, the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Mr. Thompson) should not speak in that way.

Nimrod is a very important matter for this country. It is important because there is a continuing gap in our defences which must be filled. It is important because the amounts of money dependent on the decisions made could affect defence expenditure in other important areas. The situation has not been helped by the Government moving the goal posts, just as they did over the PC9, the RAF trainer. Thus, I hope that the goal posts will not be moved again.

The Under-Secretary of State spoke about the various options, but if the order does not go to GEC, it will be a major blow for British industry. Indeed, the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Couchman), who has part of GEC avionics in his constituency, spoke about that in his intervention to the Under-Secretary of State. If the order does not go to GEC, important investments made partly by the Government and partly by the company will be written off. It will mean that two companies effectively in the United States only will be recognised as being able to produce that type of radar. Europe will be out of the running for a long time. It will also mean that the heavy investment made in RAF Waddington will have been 873 wasted, even though the equipment has already been delivered and is in use. It has even been suggested that the future of RAF Waddington may be in question.

In order to meet the minimum RAF requirement, I understand that £250 million is required now for GEC, and a further £150 million is required to meet the original air staff requirement. That must be considered against a possible cost of £1.5 billion if we go for an American system. We are talking about 2,000 jobs and about leaving the field clear for the Americans. Europe would be contracting out of one of the most important areas of development in terms of defence and electronics generally.

§ Mr. Lee

Where does the £1.5 billion cost of purchasing an American system come from? What authority does the hon. Gentleman have for making that statement?

§ Mr. McNamara

That is a good question. The figure is based on the information that we could get. Indeed, I shall come to that point in a few moments. It is all a question of the amount of information available to the House, which in turn affects the level and quality of our debates. Indeed, I shall make the point now. The House lacks any proper informed discussion before decisions are made. We discuss issues after the Government have made decisions and have placed contracts. But the House and its Committees do not look at the on-line costs of major schemes. We have no outside way of monitoring the schemes. We have no way of looking at the way in which defence decisions are made. That point must be considered.

§ Mr. Lee

That may well be a subject for wider discussion another time, but I specifically asked the hon. Gentleman where he got the figure of £1.5 billion from. Is it just a figure that he has plucked from the air?

§ Mr. McNamara

That figure was authoritatively given to me by one of the groups interested in this matter.

§ Mr. Lee

The hon. Gentleman is saying— —

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker)

Order. With respect, the Under-Secretary of State made a long speech. Many hon. Members are waiting to take part in the debate. I wonder whether some of those points could be left until the Minister replies to the debate.

§ Mr. McNamara

I accept what you say, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I turn to the statement made yesterday by the Secretary of State about defence cuts. He told us that he would be realistic. Yet everything that he said, in effect, cut our ability in conventional defence in favour of Trident. In the statement on the Defence Estimates, we are told that the Warsaw pact has 16,600 main battle tanks to NATO's 7,800. That is a ratio of more than 2:1 in favour of the Warsaw pact. Yesterday, the cancellation of the LAW mine was announced, together with a reduction in provision for future mine systems which could help to defeat a conventional attack. But if we do not have such conventional defences, the possibility of nuclear retaliation as a result of a flexible response is increased.

The Government have cut our conventional forces and our conventional capability in order to maintain Trident. The Defence Estimates claim that the Warsaw pact has a 2:1 advantage in terms of tactical fixed-wing aircraft. Yet yesterday, we were told that the second Harrier batch is 874 likely to be postponed. We already know that the provision of the Tornado for the RAF is being considerably postponed in order to meet the Saudi order.

We are talking about cuts in our conventional forces and in our ability to meet a conventional attack, merely in order to fund Trident. The White Paper says that the Soviets have a 2.3: I advantage because of submarines. Yet yesterday, we were told that the type 22 frigates will not have the new advanced sonar ray system. The Minister cannot tell us when we shall get the frigates that we need. We are told that the Navy will have "about 50" frigates instead of the 50 that we were promised. What does "about 50" mean? Does it mean forty-seven, forty-eight or forty-nine? We know that the Government are reneging yet again.

Indeed, the Government are reneging on the commitment to conventional defences and are thus increasing the possibility of a nuclear war. They are lowering the nuclear threshold in order to pursue the ephemeral idea that Trident is somehow important to this country's defence. They somehow think that a weapon of suicide is necessary.

The pivot of Labour's collective defence policy is membership of NATO. That membership will be continued and strengthened under a Labour Government, while we pursue our policy of maintaining and strengthening our conventional forces, and of unilateral nuclear disarmament. We shall negotiate with our American allies the removal of their nuclear weapons systems from the United Kingdom. The Labour party recognises and accepts that facilities in the United Kingdom that are given to the United States are for the joint collective defence of western Europe. American bases in the United Kingdom are here for NATO purposes. Labour is quite happy to see them maintained for NATO purposes and for uses originally envisaged by the Alliance, provided that all nuclear weaponry is withdrawn.

However, the use of United Kingdom bases for United States out-of-area purposes— that is, out of the NATO treaty area—are ventures that were not envisaged in the original exchange of notes establishing United States bases in the United Kingdom. The Labour party therefore believes that, given our non-nuclear defence policy and the fact that the use of bases for non-NATO purposes is contrary to the original spirit of establishing them in the United Kingdom, there will have to be a more formal discussion with the United States and the establishment of an open treaty outlining the limits and the extent to which the United States bases in the United Kingdom can be used within the role originally assigned to them, particularly in the light of the Libyan adventure.

We say "particularly in the light of the Libyan adventure", because out-of-area activities by NATO were specifically drawn in by the United States when NATO was being considered. At the time, the United States did not want to be drawn into colonial wars as Britain, France, Holland and Belgium divested themselves of their empires. Equally, we do not want to be drawn into what many people regard as the United States' colonial and misjudged wars.

We are not in favour of the United States supporting terrorism in Nicaragua. We think that the votes for that were wrong and will only destroy those very ideals so nobly called for in the Declaration of Independence.

§ Mr. Couchman

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

§ Mr. McNamara

With the greatest respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have requested us to be brief. I have already given way once——

§ Mr. Couchman

rose——

§ Mr. McNamara

I understand that the hon. Gentleman spoke yesterday, so I shall not give way; I want people to understand the position of the Labour party.

Yesterday, many hon. Members said that the United States would, in a fit of pique, remove all its weapons and go home if we asked it to take away its nuclear weapons. but I have a higher regard for that country than to think it would act in that way.

Other things in the United Kingdom are more important to the United States than even its nuclear bases and the F111 s. One of them is Cheltenham. The United States ability to use our facilities in Cyprus is also more important to it than its nuclear bases. The Americans are hard-headed enough when negotiating to know that these matters are far more important. We can think and talk about them, because we are allies, but we are determined that eventually United States nuclear weapons will go, as ours will go.

The United States belongs to NATO for the same reason as the United Kingdom belongs to NATO. The United States regards it as being in its national interest to belong to NATO. When the United States decides that it is no longer in its national interest to remain a part of NATO, it will probably pick up its baseball bats and go home. It would be improper for the United States to be engaged in an alliance that it did not feel was in the strategic and economic interests of its people. We understand that. That is what alliances are made for. When the United States reaches that decision, whether it has nuclear bases in this country will matter not one jot. Should the population of the United States drift towards the Pacific coast and believe that its future is tied up with the Pacific basin, even the possession by the United States of a million nuclear bases in this country would not affect that decision.

§ Mr. Couchman

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

§ Mr. McNamara

No, I shall not give way.

§ Mr. Couchman

rose—

§ Mr. McNamara

With the greatest respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have requested us to be brief. I have already given way once— —

§ Mr. Couchman

rose——