Home Affairs

§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Douglas Hurd)

I must confess to some mixed feelings about the load of legislation which we in the Home Office have put upon ourselves in the coming Session. However, I have no mixed feelings about the subject for debate on the first day of the debate on the Gracious Speech. I welcome the chance to say something about how we see our work in the Home Office.

I shall comment briefly, if it seems sensible to the House, on the four Bills which appear in the Gracious Speech as the responsibility of the Home Office and then give the House a topical account of how I see one of the main jobs, or perhaps the main job, of my Department, which is its overview of policing in England and Wales.

Two of the Home Office Bills to which reference is made in the Gracious Speech relate to animal experiments and shops, and both have some points in common. They will both contain proposals for well-founded and well-researched reform. In both instances the present law is creaking badly and is becoming steadily more difficult to apply. In fact, the two statutes are worn out. In both instances there is genuine controversy and high feelings which have been, and certainly will be again, reflected in debates in Parliament.

If the Government were feeble and exhausted, we would have decided to leave these matters untouched. They would have come under the heading "Too difficult". In that event, the deterioration and the impracticability of the present law would have continued. Instead, we have decided that the time has come to grasp both subjects.

There have been some exchanges already this afternoon about Sunday trading, but I think that everyone, whatever his or her own view, accepts that the existing law is riddled with anomalies. It is widely disregarded and enforced patchily and without enthusiasm by local authorities. The Government sought advice from an independent committee, which concluded that the present law, the 1950 Act, was past patching. There will be plenty of opportunity to debate the issue fully. As the House knows, the Bill will be straight forward. It will be based on the recommendations of the Auld report, which the House has already debated.

I recognise that many are concerned sincerely that the measure could affect the Sunday, which provides a break 122 in the rhythm of weekday life. I see the Bill much more as being in harmony with our general views on freedom of choice. It seems rather important that we should not end up replacing an old muddle with a new one. The Government's scheme, as the House will see, is relatively simple. I hope that Parliament will find that to be one of its attractions.

We shall introduce a Bill on animal experiments, which will replace entirely the Cruelty to Animals Act 1876. That Act has deserved a long life. The controls within it have turned out to be adaptable to the great changes and advances in science since its enactment, but the time has come to change it. The complexity and scale of experiments has increased enormously and a new system of control is necessary. There is much public interest and concern. We have published two White Papers on the matter, one in 1983 and one in 1985. We have consulted widely, and our proposals have been welcomed widely.

We want to enact new arrangements that will strike the right balance between, on the one hand, the need to minimise animal suffering and, on the other, the need to maintain the advance of science and medicine. I hope that our proposals will provide a firm structure for future control and the encouragement of alternatives to animal experiments. I hope that the Bill which, although it is complicated and will arouse feelings, will be supported by the House.

There are also two Home Office Bills that fall within the general rubric of law and order. I am glad that there has already been, from the Leader of the Opposition, from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) and others, a general welcome for the principle of the Bill that provides for the confiscation of the proceeds of drug trafficking. There are important points here, which the right hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Powell) illustrated in a speech in Oxford the other day—a speech that I read with care. These important points are embedded in the Bill, but it fits, and necessarily fits, into our general strategy on drugs.

As the House knows, much has already been done to reduce both the supply and demand for drugs. As a result of the measures that have been taken, the number of heroin seizures tripled between 1982–84 and in 1984 the quantity of heroin seized was 50 per cent. higher than in the preceding year—nearly as much as in the whole of the United States during the same period. The number of people convicted of drug trafficking last year was more than 4,000, which is an increase of 800 on 1983, and the number of adult drug offenders in prison in England and Wales rose by 600 from September 1984 until last June.

§ Mr. Allan Roberts (Bootle)

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that one of the reasons for the increased statistics in respect of the amount of heroin seized is the dramatic increase in the amount of heroin that is coming into the country anyway but is not being seized? Is it not the same percentage volume seized of a much bigger inflow, and is that not true of the statistics about people arrested and imprisoned? Should not the Government make major resources available and do something on the international scene to prevent drugs coming into the country?

§ Mr. Hurd

We are doing that. We have to operate on three main points. They are the point of production—countries, mainly in the Third world, where the drugs are 123 produced—the point of entry and the point of sale and consumption. We have already appointed a minimum of 150 extra preventive customs staff for next year. A further £2.4 million is being provided to help to eradicate the opium poppy in Pakistan. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary was in that country the other day to help that plan forward. We are doing something similar with cocaine production in central America.

The confiscation Bill is the next and crucial step. It will create a new offence of handling the proceeds of drug trafficking. It will give new powers to obtain information about their movement or disposal. The courts will be empowered to freeze the assets of those accused of drug trafficking, and required to impose on those convicted a confiscatory fine equal to the full amount of their proceeds from trafficking. For this purpose there will be available a presumption that anybody convicted of drug trafficking had derived all his assets from trafficking save in so far as he showed the contrary. These provisions are necessary and will, I hope, be widely supported as a proper and vigorous response to a menace which has destroyed many young lives and families in all parts of the country.

§ Mr. Robert Adley (Christchurch)

Has my right hon. Friend seen the action taken by the Malaysian Government in trying to deal with this problem—action that can be described as draconian but which has had a dramatic effect?

§ Mr. Hurd

From what I have heard and read of such measures, I am not sure that they would commend themselves entirely to the House. I shall look into the matter further.

The public order Bill, the fourth Home Office Bill, is the result of long thought and wide consultation. I see that it has absurdly been suggested that the Bill has been thrust forward at the last minute for some obscure political purpose. Whatever criticisms the Bill may attract, undue haste in its preparation is not one of them.

The review of the public order law was announced by my noble Friend Lord Whitelaw in June 1979. We published a Green Paper in June 1980. Also in 1980 the Select Committee on Home Affairs published a report on the law. In 1981 there was Lord Scarman's report on the Brixton riots. We have taken account of the lessons of later disorders, such as those during the miners' dispute. Finally—this is very important—we have had the benefit of the 1983 report of the Law Commission on the common law offences of riot, unlawful assembly and affray which we shall be largely following.

Our proposals were published in a White Paper last May. As we said then, we are in no doubt about the importance of the principles at issue. The rights of peaceful protest and assembly are among our most fundamental freedoms. When the House sees the Bill, I hope that it will agree that we have sought to provide a balanced, legal framework in which the police have the necessary powers to prevent and deal with disorder while these fundamental freedoms continue to be safeguarded.

There will be a new traditional requirement—already found in many local Acts—for the organisers of marches to give advance notice to the police, but with an exception for marches organised at short notice in response to an emergency event. The existing powers of the police 124 to impose conditions on marches to prevent serious public disorder will be widened to enable them to prevent marches which are likely to cause serious disruption to the life of the community or the coercion of individuals. Similar preventive powers will apply to static demonstrations and assemblies in the open air, but there will be no extension of the existing power to ban marches, nor any power to ban static demonstrations.

§ Mr. Ron Lewis (Carlisle)

Can the right hon. Gentleman undertake that marches organised by the Salvation Army will be exempted?

§ Mr. Hurd

There cannot be exemptions for classes of marches because of the nature of the organisation that organises them. If the hon. Gentleman knows of any inconvenience or difficulty that the Salvation Army has experienced in organising its marches, I am sure that he will let me know.

§ Mr. Eric S. Heffer (Liverpool, Walton)

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain what kinds of events he has in mind? Do they include a group of workers who are suddenly dismissed by their employer and who are so annoyed that they decide to have a march in the vicinity?

§ Mr. Hurd

I have tried to explain that the kind of march which is already included is one which could bring about serious public disorder. We are talking about the power to impose conditions, not about the power to ban marches. We propose to widen those conditions to include marches which could cause serious disruption to the life of the community—for example, by blocking a crowded street or by the coercion of individuals through bullying or harassment.

In addition, there will be a new offence of disorderly conduct, punishable by a fine, to provide protection against acts of hooliganism which cause alarm, harassment or distress and with which the police cannot deal adequately at present. The House will want to look at the details of this new offence. However, as the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said in the House when the matter was first aired, we all know that there are vulnerable families, such as the elderly and ethnic minority families, whose lives can be made a misery by persistent harassment. The postbags of many hon. Members, as I know from the letters that they send me, clearly reflect this reality.

§ Sir Peter Emery (Honiton)

When dealing with static demonstrations, or happenings, will my right hon. Friend consider looking at the powers of local authorities over very large gatherings of people in the countryside, such as large pop festivals on agricultural land where they have never been held before, which might bring in 50,000 or 80,000 people?

§ Mr. Hurd

I know that that has traditionally been a problem at Stonehenge, I know from a letter that I received recently that it is a problem in Staffordshire and I know that it is a problem in my hon. Friend's county. It is a difficult issue, because it involves the law of trespass, which we are not proposing to tackle in the new Bill. However, I am trying to see whether we can do something about the problem, though at the moment I have no great expectation of success.

§ Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West)

The Home Secretary talks about provocation, but will he find time in his legislation to prevent chief constables from making 125 provocative, party-political statements, as the chief constable of Greater Manchester and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis do frequently? I am sure that the Home Secretary agrees that we do not allow senior civil servants or senior military figures to make the sort of political statements that unelected and unaccountable chief constables are prone to make these days.

§ Mr. Hurd

I am delighted that chief constables find their voices from time to time. They are perfectly capable of looking after themselves in any controversy that may result.

§ Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey)

The Home Secretary will know that disorderly conduct is probably the most controversial of the offences that he proposes to include in the new Bill. Can he give the House a general assurance that we shall not have another offence like those that have caused enormous trouble to the courts and individuals because they are unspecific and ill-defined? Laws that give the police a discretion to choose who is in breach of them and who is not—because the offence is so badly defined—have given us terrible trouble and caused great feelings of injustice. We have just abolished the sus law and we need an assurance that we will not have another of the same sort, which courts will not be able to deal with.

§ Mr. Hurd

It is because I knew of that argument that I said that the House would want to look carefully at the way in which the clause was drawn. The hon. Gentleman, with his experience, will know that there are examples of causing harassment, alarm and distress to people that fall outside the 1936 Act and are not necessarily liable to cause a breach of the peace. There is a gap and the hon. Gentleman will want to look carefully at the clause to see whether we have filled the gap adequately.

§ Mr. Merlyn Rees (Morley and Leeds, South)

I have been listening to the questioning about the public order legislation. The right hon. Gentleman has explained that it started with a Green Paper and has come through a Law Commission report and a White Paper and there were the happenings of last year. The discussion could go on for ever. Will the Home Secretary have a word with the Leader of the House? Two or three proposals in the Bill lend themselves to a Select Committee-type procedure. We could take evidence from chief constables, lawyers and others. Before the Bill came to the Floor of the House we could have covered the five-year period during which people may have changed their mind. Would not that be a better way of proceeding?

§ Mr. Hurd

My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will have heard the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion and, as it comes from someone with authority in these matters, no doubt my right hon. Friend will ponder it.

The Leader of the Opposition dealt yesterday, as some of his colleagues have before, with the figures of recorded crime and it is only right that I should deal with the matter. I shall try to do so—I may not succeed—in a way which the House will find to be fair. When we discuss this subject, we are talking about figures of recorded crime and there is some evidence from the British crime survey that the public may be more inclined now, possibly largely for insurance reasons, to report crimes such as burglary, than they used to be. [Interruption.] I mention that point 126 because statisticians think that it is important. I do not make too much of it, or rest my argument on it. 1 mention it for the sake of completeness.

The essential point, which I hope that the whole House will accept, is that the statistics for recorded crime show a steady rise since the 1950s. There have been ups and downs in particular years, but the annual average increase in that decade was 5 per cent., whereas from 1960 until now it has been between 6 per cent. and 7 per cent.

§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)

What about the figures since 1979?

§ Mr. Hurd

I am not trying to diminish the facts. I am simply stating the figures. We are dealing with a trend that has gone on for 35 years through successive changes of Government, a trend which is deeply worrying precisely because it is so continuous. The figures that I gave earlier relating to drugs show that a new and quite big element of drug-related crime is beginning to affect totals both for the prison population and for recorded crime statistics.

The statistics for different countries are not comparable, but the trend that I have described is not confined to this country. It exists throughout Europe and the United States.

§ Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed)

None of us underestimates the difficulty of the job that the Home Secretary has taken on, but his party gave the public impression that it could reverse or at least substantially reduce that trend by measures such as the short sharp shock, its attitude to imprisonment, and so on. That has not happened.

§ Mr. Hurd

I intend to deal next with the measures that we have taken since 1979 and what we propose to do about them, because that is the next logical step in the argument. First, however, I should point out that the roots and causes of crime have always been and probably always will he a matter of argument. That point surfaced yesterday and will no doubt come up again today. I think that all the Opposition parties tend to put more emphasis than we Conservatives do on the link that they see between crime and unemployment, bad housing and other forms of social deprivation, whereas we put perhaps more emphasis than they on the decline and sometimes the collapse of family life, the relaxation of discipline and the disappearance of a spirit of community whether in the towns or in the countryside.

That argument emerged in the debate on the city riots and it will no doubt continue, but I hope that we can all agree, as the Leader of the Opposition did yesterday, that once crimes have been committed they must be dealt with firmly under the law and that the police and the courts, whose duty it is to do that, should have the full support of every law-abiding citizen and every democratic party. It would be a poor day if that statement became a matter of debate in the House or in council chambers.

§ Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a question not just of dealing with crime but of dealing with it relatively swiftly? At present it seems to take for ever for a case to come to court, by which time the evidence may be so rusty and fusty that convictions which perhaps should have been secured cannot be secured.

§ Mr. Hurd

Many of us are worried about the delays in bringing cases to court. My noble Friend the Lord 127 Chancellor has put new resources into accelerating the course of justice, and this month we have started field trials in several parts of the country to see whether we can move somewhat nearer to the Scottish system in which there is an absolute limit to delays in bringing offenders to trial.

§ Mr. David Ashby (Leicestershire, North-West)

I have said time and again in the House that if there were more provision for summary trial, cases would be tried more swiftly, but there is virtually no provision for a summary trial covering more than half a day. Does my right hon. Friend agree that if there were provision for such trials to go on for two or three days, much of the problem might be solved?

§ Mr. Hurd

It is no secret that we are thinking in terms of introducing a Criminal Justice Bill in the next Session. If my hon. Friend would like to develop that argument between now and then, we will consider it.

We are not asking the Labour party—it would be silly to ask it—to relax its views on the Government's social and economic policies, but I ask Labour Members to see whether they can join us and the vast majority of our fellow citizens in supporting the police in debate in the House, in towns, schools and all the places where the police are trying their best to uphold the law and to protect our constituents.

We have put together a strategy of which the three main elements are strengthening police resources, crime prevention and the relationship between the police and the public. Since May 1979, police manpower—police officers and civilian staff—has increased by some 13,000. At the end of September, there were 120,500 police officers in England and Wales, supported by some 39,000 civilian staff. More than 800 police officers were recruited in September—the highest intake in one month for four years. In the past six years, approval has been given to increases of some 3,400 additional police posts in forces in England and Wales.

I have had discussions with Sir Kenneth Newman, the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis, and I have authorised him to recruit up to his full establishment of 27,145. I have also authorised an increase of nearly 50 in the civilian staff ceiling next year for further civilianisation. I have told him that I am prepared in principle to agree to an increase of 50 officers in the police establishment next year to strengthen his efforts against drug trafficking. He has told me that he expects that 200 officers will be brought back into operational use as a result of the force reorganisation that he has in hand.

§ Mr. Tony Blair (Sedgefield)

What positive steps will the right hon. Gentleman take to recruit more police from the ethnic minorities? Does he agree that current figures are appallingly low?

§ Mr. Hurd

The hon. Gentleman is quite right; the number is far too low. Numbers have improved substantially, but from a very low base. Every police force is aware of our wish that it should open its doors—obviously without lowering standards, as the right hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Kinnock) said yesterday—and recruit as widely as possible in the black and Asian communities.

§ Mr. Blair

But what steps will be taken?

§ Mr. Hurd

We have to consider value for money in the police service as elsewhere. The police service understands that, and much is being done in forces throughout the country to improve management and the use of resources. I have set in hand work to assess whether further increases beyond the current Metropolitan police establishment are needed. I must not think only of London, however. I shall also be ready to consider applications from provincial police authorities for increases in police establishments on the basis of demonstrated need. I said recently that I was ready to approve increases of 200-plus nationally to help in the fight against drugs.

§ Mr. Ken Weetch (Ipswich)

One of the worrying increases in crime concerns the variety to be found in the City of London—I refer to big City fraud, which is sophisticated and extremely difficult to detect. The undermanning of fraud squads in terms of numbers and expertise is an important factor in the increase of such crime. What steps is the Home Secretary taking to strengthen that arm of investigation?

§ Mr. Hurd

I agree about the importance of this matter. When the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the City of London police or police forces in other areas recognise the need to strengthen fraud squads, they will no doubt come to me and make their case. I will then consider it.

Under our law, the police must use no more than the minimum necessary force. The violence during the riot at the Broadwater Farm estate in Tottenham reached new levels of ferocity and I believe that the police must be properly equipped to deal with such violence. The commissioner is reviewing urgently the tactics and equipment necessary in such circumstances. I shall see that those requirements are met.

Therefore, the needs of the police change as the situation changes, and we have to respond to that. However, I emphasise, in view of some things that have been said and shown on television, that we do not want to alter, and the police do not want to alter, our strong, steady and well-established tradition of policing. I mentioned the law of minimum force. There will be no change in that. There should be no change in the reluctance to carry firearms except when they are absolutely necessary. There will be no change in the basic tradition of the policeman as a citizen in uniform drawing support and strength from the community that he serves.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

§ Mr. Hurd

I apologise, but I shall not give way, as I must get on with my speech.

Certain policies flow from that. When things go wrong—every chief constable and any Home Secretary knows that they do sometimes—the mistakes must be properly investigated and the lessons learnt. The significance of the major change introduced from April this year, when the new independent Police Complaints Authority started work, is just beginning to sink in. The authority, led by Sir Cecil Clothier, the former ombudsman, supervises the processes of each investigation. That is what is new. The close involvement of a member of the Police Complaints Authority from the very start of the investigations into recent incidents of public concern, such as the tragic deaths of John Shorthouse and Mrs. Jarrett, and the 129 shooting of Mrs. Groce, provides a guarantee that the investigations will be full and rigorous. I understand that the papers on the Shorthouse case are now with the Director of Public Prosecutions. I hope that it will not be long before he can announce his decision.

It is to the credit of the police service that it recognises that it has everything to gain from the exposure of its procedures to scrutiny in that way. Police officers, the police service and society at large all benefit if there is public confidence in the way in which complaints are investigated.

It follows also that the police have to command respect and confidence in all parts of our communities and amomg every ethnic group. I welcome the strides that have been taken by the police in improving their training in community and race relations. I draw the attention of the House to the fact that tackling racial attacks is one of the priorities in the goal set for his force this year by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. Several hon. Members on both sides of the House have drawn my attention in the short time that I have held this post to the importance of that subject, and I have found that both Sir Kenneth Newman and chief constables in the Association of Chief Police Officers are responding to it. A racial attack is an attack not only on an individual but on a community. The police are rightly doing more themselves and more to enlist the help of the community to prevent and detect those crimes.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours

Has the Home Secretary read the report by Sir Kenneth Newman on policing principles in the Metropolis, which was produced earlier this year? Has he noted the section—and Sir Kenneth's reservations—on the membership of freemasonry by British policemen? Is he concerned in the same way as Sir Kenneth is, and, if he is, does he not think that it might be advisable to issue guidance not instructing police officers to leave freemasonry but asking them at least to consider their position?

§ Mr. Hurd

I remember that report. Its birth was when I was at the Home Office before. However, I have not acquainted myself with the follow-up action. If the hon. Gentleman would like to hear from me on that subject, I shall gladly write to him.

Before I conclude, I should like to mention something which is regarded as humdrum, which has not had a great deal of energy and enthusiasm put into it until recently, but which is crucial—crime prevention. The scale of crime and the rate of increase, particularly of domestic burglaries, showed to my predecessor that a fresh approach was called for. He set up inside the Home Office the Crime Prevention Unit, producing new research and evaluating new techniques. We now need a major campaign to help the public help themselves, through better police liaison schemes, earlier warning and reporting of crime, better design and standards of protective equipment as well as of possessions that most of us have, such as motor cars, which are not always designed to resist crime, and sharper focus on sites and areas at risk. If, as we are beginning to do, we can mount such a campaign, it will give the police a better chance of detecting and catching the criminal, and, in many cases, preventing the crime before it happens. In two weeks we shall have a national crime prevention conference which will provide an opportunity to carry this forward.

§ Mr. Toby Jessel (Twickenham)

Do not the police believe that they are handicapped in their efforts to prevent and deter crime because the abuse of the right to challenge the membership of juries means that they are distorted in favour of too many acquittals? Is this a matter of concern? What can be done?

§ Mr. Hurd

That is a matter of concern. I carefully read the speech yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel). Since then I have been in touch with the Law Officers, who have found that they do not have sufficient information for action. They believe that it would be right to gain fuller information, as my hon. Friend has said. My right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General will be arranging for the new Crown prosecution service, when it is in place, to conduct such a survey so that we have a basis of fact upon which we can consider whether action is needed.

The more I learn of the work of my Department in these matters and the more I come to grips with my responsibilities, the more I realise the connection between areas of policy which, at first, seem distinct. At first, it seems to be a terrible tangle, but a pattern emerges, as older practitioners than I realised long ago. This will be the first of many debates on law and order in this Session, and I think that that is a safe prediction. Many debates will range more widely than the specific Bills to which I have referred, and I greatly welcome that.

Today I have been able to touch on only some of the important questions. We shall need the advice of the House, perhaps especially on its less partisan occasions. I think that the heart of the matter from which no one will dissent is that law and order is not just an abstract principle; it is vital to the quality of life of every person. Responsibility goes beyond Parliament, Government or the police. It is shared by all. It is a daunting task, but there is no point in just sitting back and being daunted by it. It is also a national task. I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will help us to bring it to success.

§ Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton)

Yesterday the Prime Minister addressed the House for 31 minutes with a speech whose peroration concentrated on law and order. During the 31 minutes when the Prime Minister was standing at the Dispatch Box 207 serious criminal offences were being committed in England and Wales and another 28 were being committed in the "far north", as the right hon. Lady appears to have renamed Scotland. All that strident rhetoric and all those lavish promises might just have been acceptable in May 1979 at the time of the Government's first Queen's Speech, but this is the seventh Queen's Speech that the Prime Minister has ghost-written, and, after seven Queen's Speeches, a Government must be judged not on their promises but on their record.

This Government certainly have a record on law and order—a criminal record. This country, under this Prime Minister, is suffering from an all-time record crime wave, a mounting crime wave which even the best efforts of the police are increasingly powerless to stem. What we got yesterday from the right hon. Lady was a re-run of the final paragraphs of her speech to the Conservative party conference last month—words so hollow and artificial that they must inevitably have been written for her by Mr. Jeffrey Archer who, as the new deputy chairman of the Conservative party, has become second among unequals. 131 The Prime Minister offered an inspirational invitation to the electorate— Come with us, then, towards the next decade, she proclaimed. Let us together set our sights on a Britain where law-abiding men and women go their way in tranquility with their children knowing that their neighbourhood is safe. The problem is that this promised Britain of the next decade bears no resemblance whatever to the real Britain of the past six and a half years—Thatcher's Britain.

Thatcher's Britain is a Britain in which law-abiding men and women are able less and less to go on their way with tranquility. In Thatcher's Britain every family has one chance in four of being victims of a serious crime. As for their children, Tory propagandists are no doubt already designing an election poster prominently featuring them, but graphic artists, if they are honest, should depict them as battered and bruised, as in the metropolitan police area last year 20 per cent. of mugging victims were schoolchildren.

Thatcher's Britain is not a Britain in which, as the Prime Minister puts it, People know that their neighbourhood is safe. It is a Britain in which elderly men and especially elderly women are afraid to open their doors at night. It is a Britain in which a recent Home Office survey showed that 12 per cent. of inner city residents said that they never go out at night because of crime.

Thatcher's Britain is a Britain in which one crime of violence is committed every four and a half minutes; in which one act of criminal damage is committed every 61 seconds; in which one burglary is committed every 35 seconds; in which one case of theft or of handling stolen goods is committed every 17 seconds; in which one serious crime is committed every nine seconds. That is not the Prime Minister's promised land of the next decade; that is Thatcher's Britain now—today—in 1985.

§ Mr. Churchill (Davyhulme)

rose—

§ Mr. Kaufman

I shall give way presently, but not at the moment.

Thatcher's Britain today is one in which under this Government serious offences have risen by 40 per cent.; theft by 25 per cent.; violence against the person by 31 per cent.; arson by 40 per cent.—

§ Mr. Churchill

rose—

§ Mr. Kaufman

I undertake to give way to the hon. Gentleman presently.

Offences involving firearms are up 48 per cent.; burglaries are up 59 per cent.; criminal damage is up 63 per cent.

The Home Secretary said this afternoon that the crime wave is not confined to this country, but Thatcher's Britain is the most crime-riddencountry in Europe. What is more, far too many of the perpetrators of these crimes are getting away scot free. Not only are 1 million more serious crimes a year being committed, but also, because of the intolerable burden on the police, under this Government a decreasing proportion of those crimes is being solved. In Thatcher's Britain the number of crimes committed per police officer has risen from 24 to 29 a year.

In Thatcher's Britain the proportion of crimes cleared up has fallen from 42 per cent. to 35 per cent.; the number 132 of thefts from 40 per cent. to 35 per cent.; the number of burglaries from 32 per cent. to 28 per cent.; the number of cases of criminal damage from 30 per cent. to 23 per cent. In Thatcher's Britain nearly three burglars in every four get clean away with their loot. In Thatcher's Britain nearly four vandals in every five evade detection and punishment.

§ Mr. Marlow

rose—

§ Mr. Kaufman

I give way to the hon. Member for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill).

§ Mr. Churchill

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. If the Labour party is so concerned about lawlessness, why is it that up and down the country representatives of his party at every turn are seeking to undermine the police in their work, and nowhere more so than in the city of Manchester, which we both have the honour to represent?

§ Mr. Kaufman

The hon. Gentleman is not a Manchester Member of Parliament and should not give himself airs.

§ Mr. Mark Carlisle (Warrington, South)

rose—

§ Mr. Kaufman

As for the undermining of the police, I shall be coming to that very matter in considerable detail before I have finished.

The Thatcher's Britain that I have described is the real, harsh, increasingly violent, increasingly lawless Britain over which the Prime Minister presides. However, no one could have guessed it from her complacent speech yesterday or from the Home Secretary's incompetent carbon copy speech this afternoon.

We are witnessing a monumental attempt at a massive confidence trick. It began at the last general election when after four years of rising crime the Tory manifesto claimed: Already street crime is being reduced and public confidence improved in some of the worst inner city areas. However, under this Government notifiable offences have increased by 62 per cent. in the police force areas which contain most of the inner cities.

The Prime Minister is trying to deceive the country, but one group that she is not deceiving—here I come to what the hon. Member for Davyhulme said—is the police. The Prime Minister makes lavish promises to them as well. At the Conservative party conference she proclaimed: The Government will continue steadfastly to back the police. If they need more men, more equipment, different equipment, they shall have them. The Prime Minister said in her speech yesterday: The Government have made it clear that the police will have the resources that they need in the fight against crime." [Official Report, 6 November 1985; Vol. 86, c. 25.] But this year's public expenditure White Paper plans for a reduction in real terms in expenditure on the police. The Home Secretary rubbed those facts in at the police superintendents' conference at Torquay only six weeks ago when he admitted that increases to date in expenditure on the police

to a large extent … have been swallowed up by increased demands on the police. He confessed:

The amount of reported crime has risen sharply, and new legislation has created new duties … This is not the occasion for a lecture on economic policy, but I would simply say that I see no prospect of a general loosening of the purse strings which 133 would enable us to transform the difficulties which you mention by fresh spending … there will not be further substantial increases in resources. For months now there has been a torrent of complaints by police officers at all levels against the burdens on the police of Government policy and broken Government promises. The chief constable of Staffordshire warns: our manpower availability will be further depleted because of the extensive programme of training for all officers of the Force in preparation for the implementation of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. The chief constable of Warwickshire joins in and says: My biggest fear is that we will not be able to complete this very necessary training before we are obliged to commence training of the whole Force on the changes in law and procedure resulting from the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. The chief constable of Greater Manchester adds his voice and says:

The day of reckoning will surely come. The Government cannot possibly say they have not been warned. In his speech this afternoon the Home Secretary said that he was delighted that chief constables found their voices from time to time. I hope that he is listening to what they say as I quote them.

§ Mr. Hurd

I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would have been prepared to modify his speech after hearing what I said. I specifically dealt with the concept of need. I said that in relation to both London and the provinces the test of a successful application by the police for extra resources was simply need.

§ Mr. Kaufman

That is what the right hon. Gentleman said this afternoon and what he said at Torquay, but that is not what the Prime Minister said at Blackpool last month.

§ Mr. Hurd

That is what she said yesterday.

§ Mr. Kaufman

There was nothing about need in what the Prime Minister said yesterday.

§ Mr. Hurd

Yes there was.

§ Mr. Kaufman

Yesterday the Prime Minister said: The Government have made it clear that the police will have the resources that they need".—[Official Report, 6 November 1985; Vol. 86 c. 25.]

§ Mr. Hurd

I told the right hon. Gentleman so.

§ Mr. Kaufman

Good. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that, then? Right. We shall come to the question of need now. I hope that the Home Secretary, who now says that the police will get what they need, is changing his policy this afternoon.

The Commissioner of the Police of the Metropolis, Sir Kenneth Newman, said:

In seeking to operate responsibly within these limits we shall inevitably find ourselves less able to meet all of our commitments towards the general public in the way that we would wish. If we rise, for example, to a centrally counselled drive against drugs, which brings heavy demands on manpower through round-the-clock surveillance, then the existence of finite ceilings to manpower will dictate the removal of officers from other duties. The delicacy and sensitivity of the work requires the deployment of experienced officers, who are also in demand for other key areas of operational work-such as anti-robbery or anti-fraud duties. When spelling out his requirements, the commissioner said: There is, I am quite certain, only one way in which these demands and the problems can be tackled and that is to have more manpower. He said, "only one way", yet what did the Home Secretary do? The right hon. Gentleman is not giving the 134 commissioner what he has asked for, what he needs and what makes it possible to carry out the one way of dealing with crime in London. He has given him onlym a handout to avoid cuts and an aloof lecture about giving value for money.

§ Mr. Hurd

I apologise for interrupting the right hon. Gentleman again. He knows that the Metropolitan police force is 300 under strength. It will take a little time to recruit up to strength, but that is taking place. At the same time, we are studying the precise application made by Sir Kenneth on the basis of need.

§ Mr. Kaufman

But at the Conservative party conference the Prime Minister said that if the police needed more men or more equipment, they would have them. Sir Kenneth has asked for more men. A report in The Times headed Police and Hurd in rift on recruiting states: Sir Kenneth told Mr. Hurd that he wanted an extra 3,000 officers for the 27,000 strong force because riots, with terrorism, drug offences and other crime, were taking police off the beat. Sir Kenneth asked for an additional 3,000 men, but the right hon. Gentleman has not given him what he needs. He has given him only a few million pounds to avoid cuts. That is why the newspapers reported the matter and why the right hon. Gentleman had to make a demeaning statement denying a rift between him and Sir Kenneth.

Other people also asked for additional manpower. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will provide that. Sir Kenneth Newman's warning was repeated by chief superintendent John Keyt, the secretary of the Chief Superintendents Association, who said at his association's conference: There is a limit as to how far the police service can carry out the duties imposed upon them by new legislation and the changes brought about by the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. The setting up of special departments to cope means that officers are being taken from the streets and they need to be replaced if contact with the public is to be maintained. The conference was told that the police required 13,000 new men—not to cope with crime, but simply to cope with the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and other legislation put forward by the Government.

I note that the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Sir E. Griffiths) is in his place. The Police Federation has warned that the extra bureaucratic work created by the Police and Criminal Evidence Act is "a recipe for chaos."

Police constable Paul Middup, at that time the chairman of the constables section of the Police Federation, said that with other local government services, the police were forced to bear their share of spending cuts. He continued: Central government cannot duck the issue any longer. It is fast turning into a public scandal which is entirely of their making. They cannot blame the local authorities any longer.

§ Sir Eldon Griffiths (Bury St. Edmunds)

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman into my parlour. If he wants more information to assist his case that the police need more resources, I shall be delighted to provide it.

However, can the right hon. Gentleman explain why, when I put forward the figures that he is now quoting last week, he and his colleagues jeered? Why is it that when they were in office 8,000 police officers left the service because they were underpaid and under-regarded? Why is it that at the Labour party conference a number of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues cheered when a Labour delegate described the police as the enemy?

§ Mr. Kaufman

The hon. Gentleman knows well that the proportion of police to crimes committed under the Labour Government was much better than the proportion now.

§ Sir Eldon Griffiths

Answer my question.

§ Mr. Kaufman

The hon. Gentleman had better make up his mind whether he wishes to represent the Police Federation in this House or whether his loyalty is more to the Government in their attacks on the police—[Interruption.] Yes, Government attacks on the police. Central Government cannot duck the issue any longer. It is fast turning into a public scandal. That was said by the Police Federation spokesman at that organisation's conference earlier this year. Today, the Home Secretary unctuously asked Her Majesty's Opposition to support the police. We support the police. The problem is that the police do not support the Home Secretary. While the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary parrot their support for the police, at its conference this year the Police Federation passed a unanimous vote of no confidence in the Government, and no doubt the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds was there to witness that.

Is there anything in the Queen's Speech that would cause the police to rescind their vote of no confidence in the Government? The proposals to penalise drug pushers and dealers will have our support, and we hope that the new Bill will have an impact on the terrible curse of drug addiction that is rotting away an ever-increasing number of victims. But before the new penalties can be imposed, the villains must be caught, and the Metropolitan Police Commissioner has pointed out strongly that if he is to do even an adequate job on drugs, the burdens caused by Government policy and financial cuts will compel him to weaken his other anti-crime teams, teams such a that contending with robbery, a crime that is often the consequence of addicts seeking to obtain money for their drugs.

If those drugs get into the country at all, one reason will be the massive weakening of the Customs service under the present Government, with 1,000 fewer Customs officials than six years ago and with some ports hardly manned. Indeed, some ports have "honour" boxes for people to declare whether they have drugs. From Cardiff to Dover, Felixstowe to Ullapool, Customs officers complain about their inability to deal with routine traffic, let alone make night boardings of ships coming from countries where drugs are grown or sold.

Yet this weakening of protection against drug smugglers comes at a time when drugs have become a greater bane than this country has ever known. Only in the past two years has drug trafficking had to be made a separate new statistic in the crime returns.

The number of registered addicts is only a fraction of the true problem, yet the total even of registered addicts has soared year by year, and those addicts are tragically young. The Home Office admits that since 1980 there has especially been an upward trend in addicts aged under 21. Three quarters of new addicts are under 30. About 70 per cent. of new addicts are males, but more and more women are becoming addicts, including women with children and pregnant women. An even greater tragedy is that not one Minister, from the Prime Minister downwards, has ever asked the crucial question: why?

136 Instead of helping the police to shoulder this latest urgent priority, added to all the other priorities jostling for their attention, the Government are now planning to make the task of the police even more difficult by adding a new collection of public order burdens to their already crippling workload.

The nation has, rightly, been horrified by the terrible manifestations of arson, looting, rape and murder, to which our people have been helpless and horrified witnesses in recent weeks, during the urban disturbances. Even though public order offences are no more than a tiny proportion of total crime, there is an understandable demand that stringent action should be taken to prevent riots and, where they break out, to deal with them firmly.

The Government's public order Bill will contain nothing to prevent riots and nothing that will assist the police who are allotted the dangerous task of coping with riots. On those matters the Bill will contain only two new offences which will entitle the police to make arrests during and after riots. The police are scarcely short, however, of offences under which they can make arrests in such circumstances. That is not their problem.

What is more, the new proposals restricting the right of peaceful marches and open air meetings will handicap the police. The monitoring of such events will eat even further into the limited time available to the police to cope with real crime.

The unprecedented new powers in the forthcoming Bill will force the police into making political decisions about the merits of particular marches and demonstrations, and it now turns out that they will even be required to make assessments about the peaceable intentions of the Salvation Army. Those are decisions that the police do not want to have to make, and that is why already they have compelled the Government to exclude single marches from the provisions of the Bill.

As the police are, unwillingly, being trapped in this political role—which they do not want because they know that it is completely alien to traditional and nonpartisan policing in Britain—so they will be forced into unnecessary and damaging confrontations with the organisers of open air meetings who find that the Englishman's, Welshman's or Scotsman's traditional right to speak freely is being restricted by the Government's fear of free speech. Thus, the doctrinaire obsessions of the Government will distract the police from their true job of fighting crime and will further damage relations between the police and public. The clearance of most routine crime depends on the help supplied to the police by the public, rather than from the efforts of the police. Those words were included in the results of a survey published by the Home Office. That finding was not surprising. The police now have so many other bureaucratic burdens that, for example, on Merseyside, they are able to spend only 6 per cent. of their time investigating crime.

By far the largest number of arrests, especially for burglary and theft, are made as the result of calls from or information supplied by the public. The Government seem determined to undermine the essential relationship between the police and the public—to erode confidence and provoke confrontation—and that will certainly be the effect of the public order Bill. Without information and co-operation from the public, the police have to fall back on methods that are less satisfactory and less successful.

137 We need to foster closer relationships between the police and the communities they serve. The police should be given the opportunity to become more responsive to the wishes and fears of the public. For example, on Merseyside there is a strong feeling that preventing sexual assaults on women should be one of the top priorities. The police there do not share that view. Where priorities differ, there should be more effective arrangements for the police to discuss with the public and elected representatives how best to combat crime in localities and neighbourhoods. Nothing in the Queen's Speech will help to nurture such sensible and constructive relationships, just as there is not a word about the crime wave itself or the dark places in society where crime is born and bred.

Yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) asked the Prime Minister the simple question: why, during the past six years under the Conservative Government, there has been a 40 per cent. increase in reported crime?"—[Official Report, 6 November 1985; Vol. 86, c. 20.] The Prime Minister shiftily dodged the question, claiming that she would come to it later in her speech. She never did come to it. She never has come to it. She never will come to it because the Prime Minister is not interested in the question, still less the answer. All the Prime Minister is interested in is cheap slogans, and yet that question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Workington is the key question, and the question to which, in their hearts, the people know the answer.

§ Mr. Marlow

rose—

§ Mr. Kaufman

The answer was contained in a survey on law and order published only last week by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research. It is a survey which demonstrates that there is a clear link between the high level of recorded crime and social deprivation. It also shows that the highest recorded crime rates are found in areas suffering from the worst overcrowding and high unemployment rates. The Home Secretary pooh-poohed those facts this afternoon, but if he and the Prime Minister—

§ Sir Edward Gardner (Fylde)

rose—

§ Mr. Kaufman

—do not like what the national institute says, let the Prime Minister listen to her deputy, Lord Whitelaw, who said: If we can nip in the bud criminal tendencies in people then we would be going a long way towards easing the pressures on our police … Undoubtedly, economic mismanagement … where that leads to high levels of unemployment, especially amongst young people, also contributes considerably to increasing the number of those tempted into a criminal life. Lord Whitelaw went on to prove that he had a sense of humour by adding: The only real remedy for this situation is a vigorous pursuit of Conservative economic and social policies.

§ Mr. Marlow

rose—

§ Mr. Kaufman

However, there is not a word in the Queen's Speech about combating unemployment.

Every authoritative survey demonstrates that bringing policemen back on to the beat not only has a significant effect in reducing crime but increases public confidence, and yet the public order proposals in the Queen's Speech will take police off the beat, not put them on to it.

Evidence from the Department of the Environment shows that crime can be reduced by employing more 138 caretaking staff and security patrols, but cuts in the rate support grant and arbitrary spending limits are forcing local councils to sack such staff and reduce such patrols

Evidence from the Department of the Environment also shows that crime can be reduced by improving estate lighting, by the installation of anti-vandal glass, by stronger front doors and frames and by closing walkways on deck flat complexes. However, after a half-hearted effort to obtain more money for housing and housing repairs, the Secretary of State for the Environment was forced in Cabinet today to settle for a derisory increase—[Interruption.] Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can tell us now.

§ Mr. Hurd

I do not know.

§ Mr. Kaufman

I think we know. We must take it that the Secretary of State for the Environment was forced to settle for what the BBC called this morning a significant compromise. He was forced to settle for a derisory increase in the pitiful sums that the Government allow to be spent on housing. They have reduced the housing programme to a record low and almost wiped out housing improvement grants.

§ Sir Edward Gardner

rose—

§ Mr. Kaufman

The Government's claims on law and order are a cynical sham. Even more cynical is the Prime Minister's crude determination to try to ride to an election victory on the backs of the police—men and women whose dedication to combating crime is simultaneously being exploited and undermined by the policies contained in the Queen's Speech.

When he was Shadow Home Secretary Lord Whitelaw said: A Government that cannot protect its own citizens from attack in the streets of its towns and cities, that cannot protect property from damage, or homes from intrusion, has failed to live up to the basic duties of Government. Under this Prime Minister, more citizens are being attacked than ever before. Under this Prime Minister, more property is being damaged than ever before. Under this Prime Minister, more homes are suffering intrusion than ever before. The basic duties of Government, as listed by Lord Whitelaw, are being subordinated to the strident politics of confrontation. There is a growing divergence between what the police want to do and what the Government want them to do. The police want to keep order for the people. The Government want to keep the people in order.

The Government cannot conceal the facts, which is why the people of Britain will come to disdain and reject a Government who have failed to keep their promise and failed to keep the Queen's peace.

§ Mr. Churchill (Davyhulme)

The speech of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) was characterised, as one might expect, by a cocktail of arrogance, impudence and personal attack. He has done himself a disservice by adopting such a personal attitude towards my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. He significantly did not answer the question that I put to him about the extent to which Labour politicians up and down the country, day in and day out, have been undermining police forces and doing their best to deprive them of equipment and resources.

139 The right hon. Gentleman did not mention Mr. Bernie Grant and his grotesque statement that the policeman who was murdered was no doubt murdered by one of his colleagues. I believe that that man is putting up for candidature of the Labour party. If the right hon. Gentleman's party is so keen on upholding a policy of law and order, how does it tolerate people such as Mr. Bernie Grant within its ranks?

How does the right hon. Gentleman have the gall to attack the Government for the resources that they have provided to police forces when he is well aware that in the city we both have the honour to represent—the right hon. Gentleman may shake his head, but I have represented a constituency in greater Manchester for 15 years—we have a police committee which is ruled by the Labour party and which is constantly seeking to attack and harry our excellent chief constable, Mr. Anderton. Only this week, it is seeking to deprive him of the 500 rounds of baton charges or plastic bullets and the weapons required to launch them which he recently acquired.

I know that it would be my constituents' view that the chief constable of greater Manchester should be able to lay his hands on all the equipment that may be required to protect them, their shops, their houses and, in the last resort, their lives from any spillover of violence in our great city. Labour politicians say that he has no right to take such prudent precautions, and I therefore venture to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he has been addressing his remarks in the wrong direction. It is the Labour party that should be providing, through the police committees that it controls in so many of our inner cities, the proper equipment. It is not that the resources are not there. Mr. Anderton has the resources and has purchased the equipment. Labour politicians are seeking to take it from him.

I can well see that if there were a future Labour Administration—the way in which the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are going on makes that most unlikely—they would nationally deprive the police of the weapons and means required to maintain public order.

The Government are right in the Gracious Speech to lay such heavy stress on the twin problems of law and order and the tackling of unemployment. There could be no higher priorities on the public agenda. The Government will rightly be judged by their performance in those two subjects.

The events of recent months in Brixton, Handsworth and Tottenham have brought terror to the local community, injury to the police, and have been a stark revelation to the nation at large of the critical situation in our inner cities, which have been allowed, over the past two or three decades, to become cesspits of deprivation, lawlessness and crime.

Representing an inner city area, I have been conscious that we have enormous problems which many of our citizens living in other parts of the country do not, and possibly cannot, appreciate. I fear that what we have seen in recent weeks may be only a foretaste of flames and bloodshed which could be much greater unless very positive steps are urgently taken to deal with the problem, which potentially poses a mortal threat to our liberal democracy, for where law ends, there tyranny begins.

140 It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the troubles of recent weeks in some of our inner city areas were, at least in part, the work of extremist activists. Who taught 14 and 15-year-old school children how to make petrol bombs? Who organised the mass production of some of those petrol bombs which have burnt shops and maimed policemen?

A new and horrifying dimension was seen in Tottenham, for the first time in modern times, with the use of firearms in such disorders. Not just one but an assortment of firearms were used against the police and the fire brigade. The courage of the police and the fire brigade in continuing in those circumstances commands the admiration of the entire country.

It comes ill from the Leader of the Opposition, let alone the right hon. Member for Gorton, to lecture the Prime Minister and this Government on not doing enough to uphold the law. We see Left-wing activists up and down the country at work, day in and day out, undermining the work of the police. In London, the instinctive reaction of the Labour leader of Haringey council was to blame the police for the rioting and not those who were responsible for it.

In many cases, Labour councils in inner city areas have discouraged or even forbidden the very co-operation that the right hon. Member was suggesting should be made more widespread—the involvement of the police in the schools and with youth clubs. Labour councils have forbidden it, yet neither the Leader of the Labour party nor his sidekick from Gorton has the courage to stand up to the petty tyrants in the town halls who seek to dictate to the police while the right hon. Gentlemen seek to accuse the Prime Minister of not doing enough to support the police.

The Government propose to introduce a new public order Bill. That is necessary and even overdue, but in itself it is not enough. How right was my right hon. Friend, in opening the debate yesterday on the Loyal Address, when she said:

The solution must ultimately lie in a strengthening of our traditional sources of discipline and authority—the family, the church, the school, responsible community and civic leadership and support for the police."—[Official Report, 6 November 1985; Vol. 86, c. 25.] It is urgent that parents should be made more responsible for the actions of their children. Is it not time that they were made more financially accountable for the criminal acts of their children who are minors? Could there be any more effective way of requiring parents to supervise their children properly, and to ask where little Johnny is tonight, than the knowledge that they could see their colour television being taken out of the front door to pay compensation to the victims of their children's actions?

In considering the problems of the inner cities in a broader spectrum, it is difficult to deny that one of the most disturbing facts is the extent to which those coming on to the job market today are all too often without any skills to offer in a modern technological society such as we have today.

The problem goes far wider than the responsibility of the Home Department. The Secretary of State for Education and Science is seeking urgently to raise the standards of teaching, but there must be a special emphasis on the inner city areas. Hundreds of millions of pounds have already been channeled into the inner city areas, but 141 if we fail to build a cohesive society in the years ahead, and fail to improve the standards of education of those living in the most deprived areas, we shall rue it.

In the course of many visits, nothing has struck me more forcibly than the extent to which the standards of the blacks in American society have been raised over the past five to 10 years. They have been raised economically and educationally to a high degree. Blacks are forming their own businesses and playing prominent parts in local and national politics. They are playing prominent roles in industry and commerce. We must also try to achieve that goal. It should be the task of Government to make available the opportunities necessary to provide such a future for the young people in the most deprived areas.

§ Mr. James Callaghan (Cardiff, South and Penarth)

I shall make a short speech because I know that many hon. Members wish to participate in it.

The hon. Member for Davyhulme (Mr. Churchill) told us that what we have witnessed is a foretaste of what is to come. He called for a substantial increase in the resources devoted to our inner cities and a raising of the standards of those who live in them, many of whom are coloured, being black or brown. He was right to do so. That was one of the passages in his speech with which I agreed.

I have represented for a few years one of the oldest coloured communities in Britain. It is a long-settled community of people who were called Lascars. They came 70 years ago to settle in Cardiff to help us with our merchant navy in the first world war. There were riots in Cardiff in the early 1920s and since then the community has grown. We have seen the children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of those who came to Cardiff 70 years ago. Originally, they were concentrated in Bute town—the nucleus of the community remains there—but they are now spread out much more widely throughout Cardiff.

Those who live in my constituency, especially in Bute town and similar areas, expect the same standard of quietness and tranquillity and the ability to lead their own lives as any wealthy white community or surburb. My constituents demand the same services from the police and the same behaviour from those who live in their midst as any other community. Relatively new areas have grown up in Cardiff in recent years and some of those who live in them are black, but we must never try to tar the majority of the black or coloured people who live in those areas with the activities of the minority who are to be seen on our television screens as rioters. The majority want to live quietly among us in our multiracial society. We shall misunderstand the problem if we do not accept that proposition. We must understand that the blacks or the coloureds expect the same standards as anyone else. They demand to be free from hooliganism like anyone else.

There is no doubt about the seriousness of the increase in crime, especially the crimes of violence, robbery and hooliganism which we have witnessed recently. My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) wanted to know why the Prime Minister did not reply when he was asked why this has happened. She did not reply because she does not know the answer, and I am bound to say that I am not sure whether I do. One of the problems that the House must face is that there are no clear answers to the problem.

I could make a good case for saying how much better things were when I was Home Secretary than they are now 142 with the right hon. Member for Whitney (Mr. Hurd) as Home Secretary. The Prime Minister said yesterday that the traditions of the church, the family and the schools have all weakened and that they must be strengthened. It is true that there has been a general decline in morality in the community—and we should not exempt what happens in the City of London when we make that general accusation. There is a general standard of morality that we must all observe. That is one of the things which we must bear in mind when we introduce legislation and in the way in which we conduct our affairs and talk to one another.

There is no doubt that the police are over-strained. It is over 20 years since I had close contact with them, but I know from my experience that they want more help than they are getting. Of course the Home Secretary cannot give them all that they want. If the Prime Minister said that they could have everything they wanted, she was making a great mistake. The police will not get everything and the Home Secretary was right if he tried to put the correct gloss on that issue. However, the police need more assistance than they are getting now and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will find it possible to give them that.

The handful of authorities that are denying the police access to schools are behaving in a short-sighted and foolish way. These authorities should permit the police to enter schools so that children may see them, understand the job that they are trying to do and understand their problems. The Labour authorities that are denying entry to the police—I do not know whether any Conservative authorities are doing so—should reverse their decision forthwith.

It is clear that Mr. Grant still has much to learn. Over the past few weeks he has received a roasting from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and from every leader writer, and I am sure that that has taught him a great deal. There is nothing like a good roasting for teaching us when we have gone wrong. If Mr. Grant is a man of intelligence, he will have learnt a great deal from his recent experience.

My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was correct when he painted the scene, in a speech which held the House. I do not expect to be a member of my right hon. Friend's Administration, but I am pleased to say that he is growing in stature with every speech he makes, and he made a splendid speech yesterday.

We must recognise that the police need help from us all, including everyone in this place. That brings me to the Home Secretary and the attitude of my party and that of the Government. I welcomed the Home Secretary' s tone this afternoon. He gave way continually to interventions and it could be said that he did so a little too often and allowed the interventions to interfere with the thread of his speech. One of my more cynical colleagues suggested that he did not have much of a speech to make, but I prefer to give the right hon. Gentleman the benefit of the doubt.

The right hon. Gentleman adopted a good approach, but what will be the approach of Conservative Back Benchers? It appears from what I have read in the newspapers that they think that they have a trump card. They seem to think that if they can pretend that the Labour party is against law and order and the police, they will win the next general election for the Conservative party. That is what some Conservative Members are saying. They had better make up their minds on how seriously they regard the problem.

143 If the hon. Member for Davyhulme is correct to say that what we have seen is only a foretaste of what is to come unless tremendous changes are made, Conservative Back Benchers must ask themselves how re