DEFENCE

§ Mr. Speaker

Before I propose the Question, I must tell the House that yesterday Front-Bench speeches took two hours 19 minutes, and six Back-Bench Members each took 20 minutes or over. The result was that only six hon. Members from the Back Benches could be called from either side of the House. This puts me in an impossible position when hon. Members are seeking to take part in the debate. The House will realise that with another 40 hon. Members wishing to speak today, it is impossible for all of them to be called, but it is possible for right hon. and hon. Members to exercise greater self-discipline in the length of their speeches.

As the House well knows, all I can do is to appeal—and remember; and I promise to remember, in the interests of the House.

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force (Mr. James Wellbeloved)

My predecessor in this House urged upon me before I came here never to put Mr. Speaker into an impossible position. I shall therefore seek to be as brief as I can—and as brief as the House will allow me.

In coming to power, the Government inherited a defence programme that was ludicrously ambitious in its projections 233 of forward expenditure. Therefore, the Government undertook the 1974 defence review in order that the nation should not be called upon to devote resources to defence expenditure disproportionate to those which our commitment and our economic position could possibly justify and sustain. After the defence review decisions, there were minor reductions made in some other areas of projected expenditure. But these later adjustments need to be seen against the whole background of the vital battle for the nation's economic survival.

The outlook is improving, and we have therefore felt able to allow a real increase to be made in our defence budget for the next two years at least—in response to NATO's call in the face of the increased Warsaw Pact threat.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State explained to the House yesterday that our plans will allow us to make real improvements in our defence capability while at the same time fulfilling our manifesto commitment to reduce the percentage of gross domestic product that we spend on defence so that it is more in line with that of our major European allies. This is a major achievement.

We must not let the improvement which we are now able to make cause us to lose sight of the outstanding contribution which the United Kingdom already makes to each element of NATO's triad of forces and, indeed, to the forces of each NATO major commander. I believe that it is a tragedy that the major political Opposition party in this House has become so besotted with the pursuit of political power that it cannot generate even a flicker of patriotic pride to illuminate the vital and substantial contribution which Britain makes to the Atlantic Alliance and to the peace and security of the free world.

The debate so far has taken the usual course of Opposition contributions consisting of negative or destructive views of the nation's defence effort—without a single constructive attempt to deploy their own policy for examination by the House or, perhaps equally as important, by those outside this House who take an intelligent interest in defence affairs.

234 Let me place on record for the benefit of serious observers of the defence scene the facts on Britain's contribution to collective defence within the NATO alliance. The United Kingdom itself provides a vital base for British forces assigned to NATO, including those forces which would reinforce Allied Command Europe, and the aircraft of RAF Strike Command which in war would operate in support of all the three NATO major commanders. The United Kingdom also provides a base for the vital United States forces which are stationed here in peace time, as well as those which would reinforce NATO's posture in time of tension.

We contribute by far the largest of the readily available maritime forces in the Eastern Atlantic and Channel. Virtually the whole of the Royal Navy, the third largest in the world, is assigned to NATO, and we also contribute RAF aircraft to act in support of maritime operations.

The need to deter Soviet aggression applies no less to the seas than to the land. The defence of Europe demands the passage of transatlantic reinforcements and the use of the seas around Europe for the deployment of forces. The startling growth in Soviet maritime power has been one of the striking features of the last decade. In the Eastern Atlantic, the Soviet Union's maritime capability, in particular her submarine forces, continues to improve in both quantity and quality. At sea, as on land, NATO needs a range of capabilities so that it can respond flexibly to threatened or actual aggression. The United Kingdom has a vital role to play since in the Eastern Atlantic and Channel areas we continue to provide the main weight of maritime forces readily available to the Alliance.

In order to maintain and improve the effectiveness of our contribution to the Alliance's maritime capability, we are continuing with the major re-equipment programme for the Royal Navy. Five new classes of warship are under construction. These include the new class of anti-submarine warfare cruisers, the first of which, HMS "Invincible", was launched last May, nuclear-powered fleet submarines, which we are the only European NATO navy to operate, and the Type 22 frigates and Type 42 destroyers. To complement 235 these new ship classes there are new weapons and equipments including the Sea Dart and Sea Wolf guided missile systems, and the Sea Harrier aircraft.

Turning to the Army, our peace-time commitment of the British Army of the Rhine is 55,000 men. This number would be more than doubled in an emergency. The tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles stationed in BAOR are a significant part of the ground forces immediately available to meet any surprise attack, should that eventuality ever occur. In support of the land forces, RAF aircraft are based in Germany in the strike-attack, reconnaissance, air defence and support roles. The air support contributed by these 12 squadrons would play a crucial role in ensuring that an enemy did not gain aerial superiority over the battlefield. We also contribute theatre nuclear forces and, by means of the Polaris force, add to NATO's strategic nuclear capability.

Our forces also make significant contributions to SACEUR's strategic reserve, including the United Kingdom Mobile Force, contributions to the ACE Mobile Force and three squadrons of the Special Air Service. On the northern flank, Royal Marine commandos contribute reinforcement forces.

This year anti-tank guided weapon systems in BAOR will be increased by 60 per cent.—yes, 60 per cent.—compared with 1974 and in RAF Germany and BAOR the total number of SAM systems will be up by 160 per cent.

The air defence of the United Kingdom, which was dismantled and discarded by a previous Tory Government, is being restored. The right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour) talked of the Soviet threat. Let me tell him that under this Labour Government major steps have been taken to counter the threat to this island from the Soviet Backfire and Fencer bombers, something that his Government failed to do in the four years that they were in office.

The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that the time lag in the development of aircraft would have led any prudent British Government to make at least a reasonable forecast of an improved Soviet air capability and would have laid the 236 foundation for the things that this Government have had the initiative, courage and ability to put into action.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I have hardly begun my speech. The trouble with the Opposition—and I exclude the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher)—is that they are great fellows at dishing it out but they do not always have the intestinal fortitude to take it when it is given back—to use someone else's phrase.

These improvements include our plans for improved radar coverage, airfield survival measures, Tornado ADV, air-to-air missiles—including Skyflash medium range and AIM 9L short range—Nimrod Airborne Early Warning and air-to-air refuelling resources, which my right hon. Friend announced to the House yesterday.

These are some of the positive steps that have been taken. They are not pie in the sky, nor the Tory election moonshine that was trotted out by the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham. They are firm, practical steps which have been taken to ensure that this country has its air defence restored from that which we inherited from the previous Tory Administrations.

§ Mr. Anthony Nelson (Chichester)

The Minister has spoken about the importance of air defence. The principal element will be the re-equipment of Strike Command with Tornados. The Secretary of State spoke about the delays in the delivery and introduction of this aircraft, which is essential and the backbone of our air defence. Can the Minister say when the replacement of Tornados will be completed? Has this been put back?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

There are no financial restraints. We hope that the Tornado will be in operation in the mid-1980s.

No doubt the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham failed to notice an excellent report in The Guardian on 1st July 1977 by that paper's distinguished defence correspondent, David Fairhall. I shall content myself with two short quotations—one from the first paragraph of that article and one from the last. In the first paragraph, commenting 237 on the RAF's progress, Mr. Fairhall said that it would commence to rebuild the air defences of the UK almost from scratch". In the last paragraph he declared perhaps we should all feel flattered that the RAF once more thinks we are worth defending". Perhaps it would have been more accurate if he had said that we should all be flattered and rest in our beds more securely because the Labour Government have taken steps to restore the strength of the RAF in order to defend this island against the potential enemy.

So much for the Opposition humbug in the amendment in which they accuse the Government of damaging the security of the United Kingdom".

§ Mr. Tom Litterick (Birmingham, Selly Oak)

Can my hon. Friend assure the House that in the interests of the Tornado programme the Russians will continue to supply the raw titanium sponge with which it is built?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I can assure my hon. Friend that obtaining that material does not present a problem for the United Kingdom.

This is our Government's achievement and, as the Secretary of State said yesterday, our decisions on the defence budget up to 1980–81 will enable us to make major improvements to this already outstanding contribution.

I do not seek to claim that everything in the garden is perfect. But I do claim that our country makes a major contribution to the collective defence capability of the Alliance. This is recognised by our allies abroad and should be recognised by our political opponents in the House.

§ Mr. Geoffrey Pattie (Chertsey and Walton)

Is the Minister satisfied with another of the Government's achievements—drying up the supply of trained pilots?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I shall come to the question of recruitment later, if the hon. Member can contain his impatience for a few minutes.

Let me now turn to other matters, I should like to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the determination with 238 which the members of the Services, from all ranks, have worked to secure the speedy and efficient implementation of national policies in the difficult circumstances of the past few years. It would be foolish to claim that carrying out the defence policy's decisions has been an easy task for them. We must therefore not lose sight of the real anxieties that these difficult times have brought to the officers and men who serve in the Armed Forces, and the effects upon them.

As my right hon. Friend said, the nation owes a debt of gratitude to the Services for the selfless and good-humoured way in which they have responded to the need to give aid to the civil powers, whether it was the provision of fire cover or assistance to those who were stranded or made homeless by the blizzards and flooding in Scotland and the West country.

There are several points about the Services' contribution to the latter that I should like to make today. First, the early warning from the Meteorological Office helped considerably. Secondly, all the operations were carried out under existing standard procedures and no special MOD authority was needed for them to start. Thirdly, resources were available as required by the local authorities, and local Service commanders were able to anticipate increased demands by calling for reinforcements as necessary.

Both operations were carefully monitored by the MOD, but at no time was it necessary for them to be conducted from London as commanders had adequate authority to deal with all calls for help. I hope that the civil authorities of England, Scotland and Wales will be comforted by this experience, knowing that we now have well-established rules for providing military aid promptly to the civil community in times of urgent need. Having reviewed our experience during these crises we would not now propose any change in the arrangements.

Altogether, during the operation in the South West, a force of 35 helicopters rescued or evacuated over 250 people, delivered essential medical food supplies in about 150 cases and made some 160 air drops of animal fodder. Over 50 sorties were undertaken for essential civilian services. Most of the flying effort was undertaken by the Services involving the RAF, the Royal Navy and the Royal 239 Marines and aircraft from the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment at Boscombe Down. It was also encouraging for our rescue forces to be joined by aircraft from the United States Air Force, Trinity House and Bristows Limited. I am sure that hon. Members will also wish to add their thanks to these units. On both these occasions the Services performed to their customary expected standards of professionalism.

I should like to dwell on that for a little longer. As the Minister with day-to-day responsibility for the Royal Air Force I come into close contact with large numbers of officers and airmen during the course of visits to RAF stations. I am sure that my colleagues the Under-Secretaries of State for the Royal Navy and the Army would not dissent when I say that one of the most frequent questions asked of a single-Service Minister is about their assessment of morale in the Services.

In reply, I must say that morale is not all that I should like it to be. There are genuine anxieties and frustrations. As my right hon. Friend said yesterday, the Armed Forces have suffered, as has every other section of the community, from the fall in the standard of living. The battle against inflation has been fought by Service men and civilians alike—and I exclude the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit). But every fair-minded person knows that the steadfast adherence to the tough and difficult decisions of the past few years is beginning to reap its reward. Even those whose judgment is marred by partisan political prejudice are hard pressed in their attempts to cloud over the realities and distort the fact that the Government's policies have been successful and open up the prospect of a stable and prosperous future.

§ Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith (East Grinstead)

Why is it that for such a long period of time the personnel in the Armed Forces have come off so much worse than other sections of the community, to the extent that it is reported that 40 per cent. more officers and men are likely to opt for early retirement this year than last year? Is the Minister not ashamed of that record?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I shall be coming to some of these problems in a moment. I can tell the hon. Gentleman now, on this question of comparability of pay, 240 that I am in the happy position, along with my right hon. and hon. Friends, of being able to remind the hon. Gentleman that it was this Government which restored comparability to the Armed Forces in 1975 after several years of loss of comparability under the Conservative Government. I have no doubt that, when the economy of this country resumes its former strength, it will be the proud duty of this Government to repeat that performance.

I have said that morale is not all that I should like it to be. But, despite their anxieties, the Armed Forces can take pride in the professionalism which has enabled them to carry out all the tasks required of them to the highest standards of skill and professional competence. As my right hon. Friend told the House yesterday, in a recent NATO tactical evaluation an RAF station in Germany scored the highest results ever awarded to any operational unit of any NATO country. This is an outstanding achievement, and I believe that the House will wish to hear of it in a little more detail. Perhaps even Tory Members will not be able to forbear from cheering on this point.

The Supreme Allied Commander Europe's tactical evaluation programme is intended to ensure, by means of an objective assessment, that Air Force units maintain the prescribed high standards. In laymen's terms, it measures the capacity of a unit to go from routine day-to-day work to a full war footing. Units are evaluated annually by a multinational NATO team which assesses the unit's speed of transition to a war footing, subsequent effectiveness, and capacity of the unit to support operations, and survivability under attack.

I should like to emphasise that these evaluations are conducted with no advance notice whatsoever. The NATO team simply arrives at the station, and the personnel there have to drop all other work and domestic plans, staying on the job for days on end until the evaluation is over. In the case of RAF Bruggen, the home of the RAF Germany Jaguar strike wing, the NATO team arrived on a Sunday declaring the requirement for an advanced state of readiness. RAF Bruggen was given the highest assessments possible under all headings on which examination of the station's capability is assessed, and I understand that this is 241 the first time that any permanent air base in the central region has achieved this remarkable feat. This is great tribute to the professionalism of the Royal Air Force.

It is dedication like this—for which nobody gets paid overtime—which involves significant dislocation of family life, that enable our forces to make such an outstanding contribution to the Alliance and to the maintenance of peace and freedom. I have spoken today about the RAF, but I am sure one could go to the other Services who would have their own proud stories to tell.

This performance underlines my contention that the standards of dedication and professionalism in the Armed Forces are of the highest order.

§ Mr. Philip Goodhart (Beckenham)

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Critchley) and I, together with other hon. Members, visited Bruggen and that we can pay tribute to the high efficiency of the men there? Is he also aware that we met a substantial number of senior NCOs and warrant officers who are responsible for the efficiency of the Jaguar strike squadrons and who made it perfectly plain that they would leave the RAF unless a major improvement in their pay and conditions was forthcoming soon?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

The hon. Gentleman can take some comfort from the fact that this Government, backed by all the authority and information that can be provided by our professional advisers, have ensured that every conceivable scrap of information has been made available to those who have the responsibility of determining the future pay and conditions of those in the Royal Air Force.

The fact that we have entered a period of stability and, indeed, modest growth in the defence budget will itself help improve the morale of those serving in the forces. In the past year, recruitment to the Services has been satisfactory, with the exception of some RAF officer branches. Recruitment of Army officers has continued to improve, and it is particularly pleasing that the applicants are generally of a very high quality.

As the House will be aware, the RAP has recently introduced a short service 242 commission for aircrew officers. This commission is for an engagement of 12 years, but with an option break-point at eight years. We have long been conscious that the thought of signing up for a permanent commission may deter many young men from choosing a career in the RAF. The introduction of the short service commission means that those who are reluctant to make the longer-term commitment early in their adult life will now have the opportunity of undertaking an exciting and stimulating career.

Of course, we hope that many of those who join on short service commissions will, after the initial experience of life in the Royal Air Force, decide to stay on and convert to full career engagements. I am delighted to be able to say that the initial reaction to the short service commission has been highly encouraging. A significant number of applications has been made, and the standard of the applicants has been high.

§ Mr. Churchill (Stretford)

The Undersecretary says that the standard of applicants has been high. Will he confirm that the RAF has been forced to reduce standards for its intakes?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I can categorically deny that the Royal Air Force has reduced, or is contemplating reducing, its standards for intakes. If the hon. Gentleman says that this is not correct, perhaps he will do the House a favour and. instead of making innuendoes, give us his source for this information. We shall be delighted to know who is giving this misinformation to the hon. Gentleman.

Within the Services' organisations for recruitment both in the field and in headquarters, we are pursuing vigorously the possibilities of greater cost effectiveness in ensuring that we have an organisation that is well equipped to carry out its task. The possibilities for colocation of careers information offices are examined whenever the time comes for the lease of a careers information office to be renewed. The achievement of colocation is necessarily a lengthy process because of the commitments we have to our existing premises. Nevertheless, real efforts are being made to accelerate the process of colocation.

§ Mr. Ron Thomas (Bristol, North-West)

My hon. Friend has rightly 243 pointed out some of the problems facing members of the defence forces. Will he reconsider the suggestion of setting up a procedure whereby representatives of the TUC can meet representatives of the Armed Forces with a view to establishing trade unions for the Forces? This is the only way to deal with these matters, as opposed to the rather patronising attitude that has been adopted.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

The best way of dealing with the pay and conditions for the Armed Forces is to repose our confidence in the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. On the subject of trade unions, my right hon. Friend has said that members of the Armed Forces are free to join trade unions. I have maintained a reasonably close contact with the Royal Air Force over the past two years. I have not found any great demand for membership of trade unions in the Armed Forces. That may be regrettable. I am an ardent trade unionist, but I have to report the facts as I find them on the ground on my visits to the Armed Forces.

As Minister with day-to-day responsibility for recruiting on a tri-Service basis, I have already told the House that we have reduced expenditure on recruitment by £4 million in 1978–79 compared with expenditure in the previous year. We have thought it right to make these economies in order that the present very high costs per recruit obtained should be made more reasonable.

Turning to re-engagement, I can tell the House that the number of those who have the option to re-engage after completing an engagement and who opt to do so is very encouraging. Hon. Members may have noticed from the table in the White Paper that in the period 1st April to 30th September 1977, the percentages of those opting to re-engage compare very favourably with those of previous years.

So far as outflow is concerned, the number of personnel wishing to leave the Services prematurely has historically fluctuated from year to year in response to a variety of factors, but I accept that there has recently been a disturbing increase. Anxiety about pay and conditions of service and turbulence caused by various emergency duties, both at home and overseas, are no doubt significant considerations in many individual 244 decisions to seek early release. We are not complacent about the present situation and are keeping a close watch on trends in this area. As the House knows, the next Armed Forces pay award is due on 1st April, but it is not possible to say at this stage what it will be.

On several occasions, hon. Members opposite have criticised the Government for applying stage 2 of the incomes policy to the Armed Forces in just the same way as it was applied to other members of society. In order to inject some degree of perspective into their criticisms, I think that a quotation from one of my predecessors might assist them.

Speaking in a similar debate in 1973, the then Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force said: Now that the second stage of the Government's incomes policy is in prospect, the Services, like everyone else in the community, are involved in that policy, which means that any improvements in pay or conditions of service during phase 2 will need to take account of the guidelines. I shall continue the quotation in a few moments. But, first, I should like to remind the House that some hon. Members opposite have accused the Government of interfering with the independence of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body. The quotation continues: We hope that the Review Body will continue its work during phase 2. During this stage, we shall want to consult the Review Body and the Pay Board about the arrangements which should apply to the future. In the meantime, if the Review Body makes recommendations for a pay review in the light of the pay code, the Government will be prepared to agree to increases which comply with that code."—[Official Report, 19th March 1973; Vol. 853, c. 54–5.] I put it to hon. Members opposite that they cannot have it both ways. If the independence of the AFPRB has been taken away by this Government, it was also taken away by the Tory Administration in 1973. It is totally dishonest for them to try to make political capital out of the application of the Government's pay policy to the Services. They were the first to do it. The AFPRB made its first report during a Tory Administration.

I should like now to say that the Government have the utmost confidence in the integrity and independence of the 245 Armed Forces Pay Review Body, and we are very grateful for all its hard work.

§ Sir Ian Gilmour (Chesham and Amersham)

I am grateful that at last the Government have changed their ground. They now admit that the Armed Forces Pay Review Body is not independent. They merely say that it was not independent under the Conservative Government either. The difference is that we never claimed that it was. This Government have claimed that it is, but now the hon. Gentleman has admitted that it is not.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

We have not changed our ground at all. We have merely sought to expose the hypocrisy of some of the attacks made by the Opposition on this matter.

So far, I have spoken of the success of the Government's defence policy over the past few years and of the prospect of bringing our defence expenditure into line with that of our allies and our economic ability. I have also spoken of the prospect of a period of stability ahead and our response to NATO's call for 3 per cent. growth throughout the Alliance to meet the Warsaw Pact build-up.

In the remainder of my time I should like to examine the Opposition's attitude to these achievements and to say a few words about what they are pleased to describe as their defence policy.

When the White Paper was published, right hon. and hon. Members opposite made a great deal of fuss about the inclusion of the French Forces in the tables showing the comparative strengths in Europe of NATO and the Warsaw Pact. The rationale for the inclusion of the French forces in these tables has already been explained by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and I do not propose to dwell on these matters further. But it is a pity that, in their haste to make party political points, the Opposition could not bring themselves to pay tribute when it was deserved.

Right hon. and hon. Members opposite were only too ready to quote the views expressed by Doctor Luns, the Secretary-General of NATO, over the decision to reduce the planned defence expenditure for 1978–79 by £267 million. Great play was made of his concern, 246 although the fact that Dr. Luns is on record as saying that NATO recognised the Government's success in keeping to a minimum the effect of this cut on our front-line forces did not receive such emphasis.

§ Sir Ian Gilmour

Too long.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

The right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham is muttering about the time that I am consuming. He took an exceedingly long time yesterday to make a speech that was not only politically partisan but factually inept in not displaying the Conservative Party's policy. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman must not complain if, after having given way on numerous occasions to his hon. Friends, I seek now to expose the hollowness of his own lack of policy in dealing with these essential matters.

In their haste to decry any one of the Government's policies which is proving successful, the Opposition seem only recently to have turned a deaf ear to Dr. Luns.

On the day of the publication of the White Paper, Dr. Luns was reported in The Times as telling a meeting of the European-Atlantic Group that he was heartened by the recent decisions of Her Majesty's Government". He specifically welcomed improvements in ground forces, the increase in naval strength and the introduction of new weapons. He said that the improvements were in line with last year's NATO Summit decisions to increase defence spending in real terms by 3 per cent. a year and that, compared with other NATO members' relative decline in spending, Britain was a member of the Alliance which spent more than most". The Opposition did not quote those words of Dr. Luns in his praise of this Government's magnificent record of defending the freedom of this country.

That statement by Dr. Luns is a true reflection of the high regard in which this nation's defence effort is held by NATO, despite the difficulties of recent years. But the Opposition pay no heed. Instead, we hear constantly from Opposition defence spokesmen carping criticism denigrating our country's contribution.

I expect that any moment now the right hon. Lady will unilaterally announce the 247 latest shift in Conservative policy. But, until that inevitable outburst, the House is left with the policy—that gives it a dignity to which it is not entitled—outlined by the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham. In order to be as kind as I can to hon. Members opposite, I shall not seek to saddle them with the wild excesses of the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill).

I think that it is a matter for regret that the Opposition constantly make an implied criticism of the judgment of our European allies on defence expenditure by their attacks on the Government for seeking to bring Britain's defence expenditure into line with our European partners. Or is it the Conservative Party's policy that Britain should carry a heavier burden of collective defence than our European allies who are faced with the same threat arising from the build-up of the forces of the Warsaw Pact?

The Opposition claim that the increase in the defence budget of 3 per cent. over the next two years is not enough. They would increase the defence budget by 4 per cent As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said yesterday, there seems to be no rationale behind this figure of 4 per cent. beyond a desire to outbid the Government, apart from the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Critchley) who, in a flash of candour, agreed last night that economic ability was a major factor in the consideration of defence expenditure. Opposition Members have said on many occasions that our defence effort should be governed not by a combination of the economic circumstances of the country and our perception of the best contribution we can make to NATO, but solely by the threat as it is perceived by them.

In this case, the magic figure of 4 per cent. seems even harder to explain. Are the Opposition now saying that in order for NATO fully to match the Warsaw Pact all that is needed is a 1 per cent. increase in defence expenditure by the United Kingdom? I should be surprised if they were. What, then, are they saying?

To be fair to the right hon. Gentleman, he did have the good grace to admit yesterday that his figure of 4 per cent. did not mean anything. He could not give us any baseline on which this 4 per cent. would be added. He told the House that a Tory Government would spend 248 more on defence than we now do, but of course he could not say how much.

The right hon. Gentleman did, however, tell us that a Tory defence policy would be based on the security needs of the country. Similarly, in last year's debate he said that under the Conservatives defence policy would be decided on defence grounds, not party grounds. It is worthy of note that economic grounds are not even mentioned as one of the considerations to be borne in mind when arriving at a defence policy. This is a substantial change in policy, since as the House knows, the last Tory Administration, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member, made a series of short-term cuts in the defence budget because their grave misjudgment of the economy made such cuts necessary. We must assume that no such short-term cuts would be made by a Tory Administration, whatever the consequences for the rest of the public spending programme.

The right hon. Gentleman scoffed yesterday at the 3 per cent. increase we plan in our current defence budget. He compared this with a householder making a great fuss about repairing his garden fence when at the same time his home was in serious disrepair. But, if I may continue the comparison, the right hon. Gentleman's policy seems to be like that of a householder who decides how much he can afford to spend on home improvements before he has seen his home, before he knows how much it will cost him to run it, and before he has any idea what other commitments he will have against his earnings.

Until such time as we can hear a coherent and sensible explanation of what the Tories would do and how much they would spend in doing it, the House, the Services and the nation must recognise the Opposition's supposed defence policy for what it is. Like recent developments in Tory policy, it is nothing more than a crude electoral gimmick. Despite the right hon. Gentleman's words, it is decided solely on party grounds.

Even if the Tory Party were to be sincere in its talk of an increase, the House, the Services and the nation are entitled to be told where the extra money would be spent. Would a Tory Administration return United Kingdom Forces to some of those overseas bases from which we have withdrawn? We are told that they 249 would not. Would they spend more money on equipment? We were told yesterday that they would. But the right hon. Gentleman must know that it is not as simple as that.

But even if such an increase were possible, where would the money come from? The hon. Member for Stretford told us the answer in last year's debate. A Conservative Administration would stop public money being used by the National Enterprise Board and British Leyland. The NEB is a major instrument in preserving jobs such as those at British Leyland during the current recession and in providing investment to ensure that when world trade picks up our manufacturing base will be of sufficient strength to take the fullest advantage of the opportunities presented. [HON. MEMBERS: "Forty-five minutes."] Quite a lot of that time has been taken up by interruptions by Opposition Members.

I realise that the hon. Member for Stretford has never held ministerial office and gained the experience that that brings with it, but one does not need to hold such office to cultivate the capacity of memory. Are the events of 1971 completely gone from the hon. Gentleman's mind? Does he realise that the Tornado aircraft is powered by engines made by Rolls-Royce Limited? Are we to assume that if the hon. Gentleman had been in charge in 1971 our new aircraft would be powered by engines of foreign manufacture?

In one way it is a matter for regret that the hon. Member for Stretford has never held a ministerial office. It might have instilled in him a sense of responsibility which is so conspicuously lacking in his contributions during defence Question Time and on his visits to Service establishments. I say to him now that it does the morale of the Services, about which he professes such concern, no good at all to have their equipment and efficiency constantly criticised by him. He should learn from some of his more responsible colleagues to take a more constructive attitude.

Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman could find the time to take a break from his destructive campaign to undermine the morale of our fighting men for squalid party reasons, he might like to visit the 250 constituency of his hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson) and take a constructive view there—

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I shall give way in a minute.

The hon. Gentleman might like to visit his hon. Friend's constituency and explain to the Conservative voters there the importance of providing facilities for the United States Air Force in the defence posture of NATO. But no doubt it is asking too much of him to raise his robust voice on such a vital defence issue that might lose rather than gain an electoral advantage.

§ Mr. Churchill

Will the hon. Gentleman now withdraw his lie? [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Will the hon. Gentleman please say on which occasion I have ever criticised the efficiency of any of Her Majesty's Armed Forces?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

The hon. Gentleman will recall visiting a Royal Air Force station, the details of which I should be pleased to give him, and later communicating with the Press from that station, with the use of public funds on a public telephone, to give a story to the Press that members of the Armed Forces had a choice between eating or heating. If that is not an attack upon the morale and efficiency of our Armed Forces—

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will contain himself.

When I heard of that disgraceful episode, I took steps to ascertain the facts from that RAF station. There was no substance whatsoever in the hon. Gentleman's allegations.

§ Hon. Members

Give way.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I am not giving way to the hon. Gentleman again.

§ Mr. Ian Wrigglesworth (Thornaby)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that the whole House heard the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) use the word "lie". I did not think that that was a parliamentary term, a term that was permissible. I wonder whether you would ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw it.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine)

I am happy to ask the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) to withdraw the word "lie", which is not a parliamentary expression.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I can perhaps save the hon. Gentleman any embarrass ment—

§ Mr. Churchill

I shall be very happy to withdraw the word—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."]—if the Minister withdraws his wholly unfounded slur and allegation.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

The word that is not parliamentary is "lie", and it is of that word that complaint has been made.

§ Mr. Churchill

I should be happy to substitute for it "terminological inexactitude".

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

The hon. Gentleman's exaggerations do not worry me. I am content to rely on the simple fact that this Government, of whom I have the honour to be a member and particularly the honour to serve in the Defence Ministry, have done more to restore the military capacity of this nation, compatible with our economic ability to sustain it, than ever the Conservative Government did. In contrast, this Government have fulfilled their promises.

§ Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson (New-bury)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

If I give way, I shall be accused of having taken—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. Unless the Minister gives way, the hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.

§ Mr. McNair-Wilson

The Minister has referred to my constituency and to the threatened air base there. He suggested that my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) ought to go down and see my constituents to tell them the reasons behind such Government thinking as there is to open the base. Will he now promise that he will go down, perhaps next week, and tell my constituents why the base may have to be in Newbury, and not in Lincolnshire, as the Lincolnshire County Council would like it to be?

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

I have already told the hon. Gentleman that the application 252 by the United States Government to reactivate that airfield is receiving consideration. I have also offered, in company with our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, to meet the hon. Gentleman and a delegation from his constituency. All that I ask of the hon. Member for Stretford is that he takes time from his campaign to undermine the morale of the Armed Forces to go and tell the truth and the facts to the Conservative voters of the hon. Gentleman's area.

I was saying that the Government had fulfilled their promises. We have tailored our defence commitments to match our true role as a full partner in NATO. We have concentrated our efforts in NATO, and are making real improvements to our contribution to NATO. We are making progress in filling some of the appalling gaps in our defence, such as the air defence of the United Kingdom, which it inherited from the Tories.

I can therefore say that any young man or woman who is contemplating joining the Armed Forces of the Crown may be assured that he or she will be embarking upon a career which is in the highest tradition of public service and is reckoned to be so by the nation. This Government's record in defence is a record to be proud of, and I commend to the House the motion in the name of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.

§ Mr. Victor Goodhew (St. Albans)

I shall not emulate the Under-Secretary in the time he has taken partially because of his provocative statements and abuse of my right hon. and hon. Friends. Neither shall I pursue many of the matters that he pursued because I have, in anticipation of Mr. Deputy Speaker's request, cut down my speech. I have some serious things to say which I hope to put in a serious manner and not in the frivolous and cavalier manner in which we have just heard the Minister speak.

It is appropriate, when judging defence policy—if this Government can be said to have such a thing—to take a good look at the world scene and the way in which it is developing. It is only against this background that the defence White Paper can be weighed.

253 Those of us who have been in the House for some time have moved through the cold war period and then what was supposed to be a better period known as peaceful coexistence, and then, more recently, to a period known as detente. This progression was supposed to be a gradual movement from confrontation to a more relaxed state in which the Soviet Government and the Governments of the free world would discuss matters such as security, arms limitation, non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, force reductions and even human rights.

What has happened over those years? There has been a steady build-up of arms strength of Warsaw Pact countries, culminating in the massive increases in the quantity and quality of all their weapons of war during the most recent years.

In addition, we have seen infiltration and subversion on a world-wide scale, not excluding this country, followed by a new policy of war by proxy. If I were Secretary of State, I would present every member of the Cabinet with a copy of Brian Crozier's new book called "Strategy of Survival". The Secretary of State did not write it, I am sure. Mr. Crozier mentions that in his view world war three is now being fought and has been fought ever since the end of World War Two. It has been fought by the means that I have just described—infiltration, subversion and now war by proxy. He describes the free world as the target area.

If members of the Cabinet have not time to read the book, all they need to do is look up the maps, which show a steadily diminishing target area and the ever-increasing number of Communist-governed countries, Marxist and Moscow-aligned countries, countries in the progress of satellisation or threatened with it, and client States.

The picture is very clear. The changes depicted in successive maps have been brought about during periods which have been called the cold war, peaceful coexistence and détente.

§ Mr. Litterick

Has the hon. Gentleman, in his turn, read the very well-known book "Inside the Company", by Philip Agee, which in great detail tells us how, with the process of subversion, 254 through murder, bribery and other forms of corruption, the overturning of Governments is actually done?

§ Mr. Goodhew

I was talking about the threat to this country.

§ Mr. Litterick

So was Mr. Philip Agee.

§ Mr. Goodhew

I was talking about the threat to this country and the free world, and I shall content myself with that. I say to Government Members that no one should be the least bit surprised by recent events. We know perfectly well that the Russian doctrine is that the ideological struggle should be continued and pursued by all means.

We have seen Angola with a Marxist Government imposed by force by Russian-armed Cubans and immediately recognised by Her Majesty's Government, despite the fact that civil war still rages there even today. We have the Marxist regime in Mozambique, harbouring Russian-armed terrorists intent on creating chaos in Rhodesia prior to the creation of a Marxist regime there. Our Foreign Secretary seems to be giving these people aid and comfort, so blinded is he by is irritation at Mr. Ian Smith's success in bringing about an internal settlement where he himself has failed.

If Rhodesia were to become a Marxist State, we know that the next target is South Africa. In the meantime the Cubans are busy doing the Russians' dirty work in the Horn of Africa, whilst on the other side of the Red Sea their allies are already in control in Aden and South Yemen. This is all part of the Soviet grand design for Africa and the Middle East, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) outlined in such detail yesterday.

Russia does not have to go as far as taking the oil-producing countries of the Middle East. Control of the Cape route alone would enable it to deny Western Europe its oil supplies, and control of Southern Africa would enable it to deny us vital minerals. By a strategy of denial, it could cripple Western Europe and bring us to our knees without firing one shot.

It seems impossible to imagine that even this Government could be blind to such a threat. Yet it is against this background of ever-increasing Soviet control 255 and influence throughout the world, accompanied by an alarming increase in Russia's offensive capability, that this Government continue with their planned defence cuts of some £10,000 million over the period 1975–76 to 1983–84, followed by five additional lots of cuts.

This year's White Paper, thin as it is, tells us very little that we did not already know. The Secretary of State's speech yesterday was complacent beyond all understanding. I think his speech yesterday and that of the Minister today were two of the worst performances I have had the misfortune to hear in some 18½ years in the House.

Yesterday's speech by the Secretary of State also told us very little. The White Paper at least attempts to keep reminding us of the threat. We see on pages 4 and 5 what it says. In paragraph 120, the White Paper says: The capability of these forces is formidable and growing. It further says: On any view, however, Soviet forces have in many areas been strengthened in size and quality on a scale which goes well beyond the need of any purely defensive posture. It goes on: But quantitative assessments … do not reflect two particular factors of concern to NATO, the state of readiness of Warsaw Pact forces in Europe, which has always exceeded that of NATO forces and has recently been improved, and the continued introduction of advanced new equipment. It continues by referring to the increased weapon load of Soviet aircraft, the East German, Polish and Czech armies, and Poland, Bulgaria and Hungary.

So, every time we get a White Paper we are told all these things. But what are we told is to be done in answer to it? We merely read that we are to continue with the cuts planned in the defence review and those imposed since. It is little wonder that so much has been said about morale in the Services so far in the debate. It is bad enough for Service men to see the threat that they have to meet continually growing apace, but when, in addition, they see the Government repeatedly whittling down their power to resist, and intent upon doing so regardless of the consequences, they can be forgiven for feeling that they are being let down by those who should be supporting them.

256 Much has been said in the debate about pay. It should be clear by now, even to the most complacent, that this could be the breaking point in the morale of the Armed Forces. I wonder whether the Secretary of State noticed what I noticed. In December, in winding up the defence debate in the other place, Lord Peart said: The Government are aware that at present Service pay rates do not reflect full comparability. We and the Armed Forces must await the recommendations of the Review Body. The implementation of the pay award on 1st April next year is bound to take full account of the Government's pay policy, which is itself in the overall national interest. But the Armed Forces should be in no doubt that the Government intend as soon as the situation allows to restore and return them to the fully comparable pay position implicit in the military salary concept."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 7th December 1977; Vol. 387, c. 1725.] In entire contrast to that, the next day in this House the Home Secretary, announcing the terms for the settlement of the firemen's strike, said that the Government would be prepared to agree to the full implementation of the formula agreed by two approximately equal stages in November 1978 and November 1979. The Government would be prepared to contribute through the rate support grant its share of the cost of a settlement on this basis and would, exceptionally, guarantee that the phasing-in would not be thwarted by some unforeseen adverse change in economic circumstances."—[Official Report, 8th December 1977; Vol. 940, c. 1652.] What a contrast between the treatment of the Armed Forces and the treatment of the firemen. Even if the Secretary of State did not notice that, the matter did not elude the Services. Certainly the soldiers who had been doing the firemen's job for less pay than the firemen were already receiving before they went on strike noticed this disgraceful contrast.

I should like to tell the Secretary of State what they thought about that, but I cannot because I do not know how to put it into parliamentary language. I can, however, read to him a letter which was published in The Daily Telegraph today from the wife of a serving man.

§ Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Stockport, North)

Just tell us the page.

§ Mr. Goodhew

I will read it to the hon. Member. He might learn something from it. It reads: Sir—Over a period of several years now I have watched my husband's pay fall behind that of non-Servicemen. I have witnessed the 257 gradual whittling away of his enthusiasm as more and more work receives less and less recognition. I have felt the burden of the extra money we have to find every year as our bills increase and the demands on my husband become greater and greater. I have resented the large mess bills we have to pay to entertain and "show the flag", the rent we have to pay for ill-kept and badly-serviced married quarters, the time we spend apart without adequate recompense either in travel allowance or separation pay "—

§ Mr. Litterick

It sounds as though the hon. Member is talking about council house tenants.

§ Mr. Goodhew

If hon. Members listened, they might learn what is going on in the Armed Forces. I do not imagine that many of them ever bother to visit the Armed Forces to find out.

§ Mr. Churchill

They just do not give a damn.

§ Mr. Goodhew

I shall continue with the letter. The lady who wrote it was saying that she resented various matters, including the extra hours my husband works without the benefits of overtime, and above all the indifference of the Government to our fundamental right to a fair deal. The letter is signed by Mrs. Serena Allen of Portsmouth.

§ Mr. Ron Thomas (Bristol, North-West)

I wish that her husband would join a trade union.

§ Mr. Goodhew

That would only help to keep salaries down, as it does for members of trade unions elsewhere in the country.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The constant succession of sedentary interventions is not contributing anything to the debate.

§ Mr. Goodhew

Perhaps I may tell the Secretary of State about the plight of an RAF pilot whose wife has written a letter. At 45, he was told that he could no longer continue as a pilot and that he would have to leave the Service or retrain for something else. Now, a few years later, he finds that the Minister is asking pilots to stay on after 55. So a man of 45 is retrained and is doing a job that he does not want to do when other pilots are being asked to stay on after the age of 55. What a way to run an air force.

258 I have a suggestion to make about pay. The Top Salaries Review Body is an independent body, and when it last recommended a salary of £8,500 a year for Members of Parliament the Government had to make up their minds whether to allow Members to have that money or whether to bring the award into line with their pay policy of the time. The Government had to accept responsibility for denying hon. Members that increase. That was commendable and the right way round. I say that even though I would have liked the money.

That being so, I say that the Pay Review Body for the Services should prove its independence in the same way. It should recommend what the Armed Forces should get in order to restore comparability, and then the Secretary of State and the Government should accept responsibility for denying that increase. In that way they would have to defend their position publicly instead of hiding behind the Review Body's skirts.

Let the Government show that they have the courage of their convictions instead of trying to pass the responsibility on to someone else. The Secretary of State has pursued a two-faced policy by asserting the independence of the Review Body and in the next breath insisting that it must take account of Government policy. Let us be done with this charade and ensure instead that our Service men shall see that the admiration we express for them in this House, in which we all constantly join, is not just empty words but an earnest of our determination to see that they get their just deserts.

I fear that there was something symbolic in that unfortunate photograph of the Secretary of State momentarily asleep during the Queen's Jubilee Review of the Royal Air Force. It was symbolic of a Government asleep and unaware of the dangerous developments that exist throughout the world, symbolic of a Government asleep and unaware of the mounting military threat which faces the free world, symbolic of a Government asleep and unaware of the dreadful damage they are doing to the morale of our Service men and symbolic of a Government asleep and unaware of the dangers and risks to which they are exposing our country. That is why we condemn them this afternoon with all the vigour we can command.

§ Mr. Michael Stewart (Fulham)

The speech to which we have just listened from the hon. Member for St. Albans (Mr. Goodhew) had the merit of lasting for only about 10 minutes. I am bound to confess that it reminded me a little of the comment in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" on the play given by the rude mechanicals: A play there is, my lord, some ten words long.… But by ten words, my lord, it is too long, which makes it tedious The hon. Gentleman has really added nothing at all to any serious consideration of the problem. That has been the weakness of the whole of the Conservative approach to the problem of defence, not only in this debate but earlier, as I shall show.

As is usual in defence debates, the Government are attacked partly by those who say that they are spending too much and partly by those who say that they are spending too little. It is to the latter section that I wish to address most of my remarks.

To those who suggest that the Government are spending too much, I say that we must look at the relentless increase of Soviet military expenditure year by year. It cannot be said that the increase that is now planned by the NATO Powers, Britain among them, is adding to an arms race, because all the evidence is that the increase of Soviet armed power will go on, whatever the West is doing. Now at any rate—and Conservative Members ought to have given the Government credit for this—we are taking part wholeheartedly, as Dr. Luns has pointed out, in the planned increase of NATO armament. I believe that that is as it should be.

I now turn to the suggestions from Conservative Members that the Government are not spending enough and that they ought to spend more. I think that we might at least ask them to give us some rough idea of how much more. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State pointed out, the proposals made by the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Sir I. Gilmour) might mean, on one possible calculation of his formula, another £69 million. On another possible interpretation of his formula, it might mean another £1,600 million. I 260 genuinely hoped that, in the speech to which we have just listened, we should be told at what point between those two figures it lay, but we are none the wiser.

To revert to the subject that we were discussing earlier today, at Question Time, one cannot help feeling that there must have been something defective in the mathematics teaching at the schools attended by Conservative Members, because we have this extraordinary discrepancy. It is not being serious to say that the Government ought to be spending more if the Conservative Opposition cannot get a little nearer to suggesting how much more it should be.

If more is to be spent, where is it to come from? Some time ago a Conservative spokesman in a defence debate made the bare assertion that it would not be done by extra taxation. Indeed, we were given to understand by the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) on an earlier occasion that it was to come in effect, from allowing our motor car and steel industries to be run down. That is a very odd way of preparing for more efficient national defence. Conservatives sometimes forget that defence is not only a matter of the Armed Forces but of the whole economic power of the country, especially in certain industries, and these industries would be particularly hurt by what was suggested by the hon. Member for Stretford concerning the National Enterprise Board.

In the end, Conservatives come back to their favourite source. The extra money for defence is to be provided by cuts in the social services in some form or other. I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles) is not present, because he once suggested that if we could really explain the importance of defence to the parents of schoolchildren, they would gladly accept a reduction in the school meals service in order to pay for defence.

Those Conservative Members who believe that more should be spent on defence seem to have no idea of how much it should be, but they seem to agree that it should be done mainly at the expense of our poorer fellow citizens. That is the kind of vicarious patriotism which cannot carry very much respect.

§ Mr. Nigel Forman (Carshalton)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

§ Mr. Stewart

I do not think I will. I am not attacking hon. Members who have not spoken, and there are many hon. Members who want to speak in the debate. I do not think that Back-Benchers are under any obligation to give way in those circumstances.

The one thing on which the Conservative Opposition are certain is that a good deal of the extra expense should be on increased pay for the Armed Forces. We all believe that it is right that there should be an increase, but we know quite well that we must wait for the report of the review body. It is absurd to ask for pronouncements by the Government in advance of the report. Conservative Members know that perfectly well.

What is disquieting, however, is the general approach of the Conservative Opposition to pay policy. During the firemen's strike, the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition made a speech urging that the pay guidelines should be breached in their favour. A little later on, the Conservatives urged special treatment for the police. Now it is the Armed Forces. Quite seriously, I say that if on every occasion when the Opposition think that they are on to a popular line they are to insist that the general pay policy be broken, they will build up deep resentment throughout civilian industry and create a situation—

§ Mr. Cranley Onslow (Woking)

Especially at Fords.

§ Mr. Stewart

They will create deep resentment throughout civilian industry, and create a situation which cannot be contained. The hon. Gentleman's interjection was typical of the general resentment and hatred—that would not be too strong a word—which so many Conservative Members have towards the ordinary civilian industrial worker, particularly if he has the impudence to be organised in a successful trade union.

We cannot run either pay policy or defence on the basis that, whenever the Opposition think they are on to something popular, they demand increases of pay but sneer at, discourage and resent any improvement in the standard of life of ordinary industrial workers. Efficient 262 defence does not only depend on the morale of men in the Services, important as that is. It depends also on the morale of coal miners, engineers, and a host of other workers. This question has to be tackled far more seriously and responsibly.

I am not in favour of trade unions for the Armed Forces, but I believe that if we are ever to get this matter right—and free from the poisonous atmosphere that the Conservative Opposition have injected into it—there ought to be serious consultation between leaders of the trade union movement and representatives of those groups of workers who do not have trade unions and who are not allowed to strike. I believe that there could be a great widening of the understanding among civilian workers of the problems and difficulties of men in the Armed Forces, and vice versa, if there were to be discussions of that kind. I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to consider that.

I am afraid that all too often those in the Armed Forces get their idea of how people in civilian industry live from the sort of crack that we had from the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow). It is this building up of ill will between the civilian worker and the man in the Forces, which the Conservative Party has done so much to promote, which stands in the may of a proper approach to defence problems.

The right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) made a speech which I enjoyed, although some of his hon. Friends on the Conservative Back Benches kept looking at the clock while it went on. He drew attention to the Horn of Africa. It is very significant that the undoubted success of NATO in containing any Soviet threat in Europe has resulted, one may fairly say, in attempts to outflank NATO in the Horn of Africa. What are we to do in that situation?

The right hon. Gentleman said, in effect, that we must rearm, but I repeat that if we are thinking in these terms we must have a policy that will appeal to the whole nation and that will recognise that the burden of that rearmament cannot be paid for exclusively, as the Conservatives have so often suggested, at the expense of the poorer people in the country. It will need a much better 263 understanding between civilian industry and men in the Armed Forces.

If we rearm, one inevitable result will be that we must be prepared to live in a more equalitarian society. Rearmament cannot be carried out efficiently unless the whole nation feels that everyone is bearing his share. I hope that it will not come to rearming on that scale but, if it does, that is the kind of thing that the Conservatives will have to think about, as we all had to think about it in years past.

The right hon. Gentleman put forward his views on how we should deal with the defence threat in Africa. Here again, I am afraid that there is one very serious disqualification that the Conservative Party has for dealing with that problem.

Surely one fact is quite certain. It is that if we want the good will of the black peoples of Africa—and if we do not get that, we shall get nowhere in policy— the West must free itself of all taint of racialism. Unhappily, over the years in debate after debate on Rhodesian matters there had been Conservative Members openly expressing their sympathy with the rebel regime in Rhodesia long before, under the threat of necessity, it had shown any sign of being interested in racial justice. Those speeches were not delivered to thronged Benches here, but I think that they were noticed in Africa. They got this country a bad name. They got the West a bad name.

Then there was the stupid decision in 1970 to resume the sale of arms to South Africa. I say "stupid", because we did not sell any worth talking about We merely forfeited again black African opinion.

The Conservative Party will need, if it is really worried about the menace in Africa, a great change and an enlargement of its mind. That is why it is not sensible for this House to reject the Government's proposal in favour of an amendment from that quarter.

I shall not go back on the history of the Conservative Party on defence. I remind the House only of one incident. After we had had Conservative Governments with huge majorities in power for nine years, we found ourselves in the most dreadful peril ever experienced in our history. We were rescued from that by our own exertions and the valued 264 leadership of Winston Churchill. It is interesting to notice the kind of people to whom Mr. Churchill entrusted defence. During most of the time that he was Prime Minister, the Army was in the charge of a former civil servant, the Royal Air Force was entrusted to a Liberal, the Royal Navy and home security were entrusted to members of the Labour Party, and the massive job, requiring knowledge both of war effort and of civilian matters, of allocating the nation's manpower and woman power, was entrusted also to a member of the Labour Party and one of the most famous trade union leaders that this country has ever known.

I think, therefore, that perhaps the House could not do better tonight than follow that example and place no confidence in the Conservative Party on defence.

§ Mr. Maurice Macmillan (Farnham)

I hope that the right hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Stewart) will forgive me if, in the interests of brevity, I do not take up his argument, other than to say that, looking back, I wish that he and some of his colleagues had shown the same enthusiasm for pay policy when they were in Opposition and had practised then what they now preach to us.

I want first very briefly to ask the Minister to fill some gaps in the information contained in the White Paper and in the speeches that we have heard so far.

My first question concerns equipment. Are we making any progress towards narrowing the gap between the rate at which the Warsaw Pact countries and the NATO countries respectively are improving their equipment? I understand that the Warsaw Pact countries are about three years ahead. Is that gap getting wider or narrower?

Secondly, are we making any progress in the standardisation of equipment, especially of a rifle? Even if we cannot achieve the degree of standardisation of our opponents, it would be helpful if we at least had some guns which could shoot each other's bullets.

Thirdly, are we using NATO training methods to try to get a greater degree of standardisation of operational procedures, including communications and recognition?

265 Fourthly, there is nothing in the White Paper, nor have I heard a word in this debate, about the replacement of the Polaris missile and what is to come next. The hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Roper) mentioned it, but, that apart, we have heard nothing.

There are two other matters to which I want to refer. Paragraph 330, about the Microbiological Research Establishment, ignores the presence both in the Third Shock Army which faces First British Corps and, as far as I know, in the other four or five armies of the group of Soviet forces in Germany, of chemical defence units—a company with every regiment and a battalion with every division. It seems to me that the presence of such units with what are assault troops indicates an offensive intention that requires some defensive response from us. We have not heard of it.

We have heard nothing about the need to replace and maintain war stocks of materials. Have we 30 days' stock throughout the whole of NATO? If we have, is it enough? Has recent experience of warfare in other parts of the world indicated that stocks may be used up faster than calculated on that basis?

The real complaint that I have about this defence White Paper—which is not even called that now—and about the speeches that we have heard from Ministers is that there is no defence policy. It is true that Chapter 1 is headed "Defence Policy". It has two rather complacent opening paragraphs, 14 paragraphs on detente and disarmament, three on deterrence and defence, and eight, with some extremely good charts, on how strong the enemy is. The remaining 21 paragraphs seem to be a situation report of what is going on. There is no statement of a strategic or tactical policy. Any possibility of a wider role for the NATO Alliance is ignored. The entire concentration is on disarmament.

We all want disarmament, of course, provided we can get it without weakening ourselves in the West. This proviso should be quite obvious. But I am not sure that it is quite obvious when one reads bits of the White Paper and listens to some of the speeches of Govern- 266 ment supporters. In any event, we have to deal with deeds as well as words.

We have seen Soviet imperialism spread unchecked over the past few years—and not only unchecked but actively helped by the West with credits, with money, with food supplies which the Soviet Union ought to be able to grow for itself, with technology and with raw materials.

There is nothing new in this. If I may, I will give a short quotation: The capitalists of the whole world and their Governments … will supply us with the materials and technology which we lack and will support our military industry, which we need for our future victorious attacks upon our suppliers. That is what Lenin wrote to his Foreign Commissar in 1920. It might have been written today, because that is exactly what we are doing. We are supplying the enemy which represents the greatest threat to us—borrowing dear to lend cheap, not for aid but for arms.

As the late Nye Bevan said Why look into a crystal ball when you can read the book? I look at the facts of detente. We had Helsinki in 1975, which recognised the Soviet conquests in Europe in return for some undertakings on human rights. Our negotiators spent a long time at Belgrade saying that they would not tolerate any cover-up, that there would be no face-saving form of words, and that the Soviet Union must accept that human rights had to be respected. At the end, there was no mention of human rights in the communiqué from Belgrade in 1978. All that we had was a short negative statement and, when he had won his victory, the Soviet representative did not even receive it gracefully, but said rather angrily "Peace depends upon the level of detente."

To the Soviet Union peace depends on a form of detente which enables it to build up its military strength in Europe, to develop a first-strike capacity against the United States and, to use the Foreign Secretary's phrase, to look after Soviet political interests in the Third World, which means the subjugation of Africa by Cuban mercenaries in Angola, Somalia and Ethiopia. Unless we take action there is a threat to Rhodesia as well, but I shall not develop that argument now.

267 In addition, we have the possibility that was not open a few years ago of the Soviet Union threatening Western Europe and Japan by blockade. Soviet submarines are deployed to have a stranglehold on essential trade routes carrying food, raw materials and energy. This makes the opening paragraphs of the White Paper look really rather silly.

The second paragraph of the White Paper reads: Defence policy needs to be seen in the wider context of our international security aims, in the service of which defence is a partner with other aspects of policy. That reads like the assurances given to Hitler. My right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) developed that argument yesterday when he referred to Mr. Baldwin and the Fulham by-election.

If now we always fail to stand up to the smallest threat of aggression and the smallest movement against our interest, no stand we may ever take in the future will be credible. This merely encourages our opponents to take risks. Time and time again we have made this mistake and we have led our enemies to believe that we were so spineless that we would never resist. This craven policy has led to untold suffering in successive wars. God knows what it could lead to next time.

So far we have failed. Even our allowing the Berlin wall to be built was a Soviet victory. Even the late President Kennedy's resistance to Soviet missiles going into Cuba was not a real victory because the price he paid was to leave Cuba as an authorised and accepted Soviet satellite, so closely controlled that it is now used as a springboard for further aggression throughout the world.

The first paragraph of the White Paper talks about how satisfactory NATO has been for the first quarter-century. That shows bland complacency in the face of these facts. My right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser) recognised the fact that the White Paper shows no signs that after 30 years there might be some need to look at defence problems in a different way.

The hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Roper) took up this point in an interesting speech and suggested that there might be a need for technical doctrine changes. He said that he hoped there would not 268 be too much bureaucratic resistance or inter-Service rivalry to stand in their way. He had a point there.

The balance of spending between the Services has not altered at all in the last 25 years. Has the threat not altered? There has been Soviet naval expansion with submarines and great ships and threats of blockade. In view of this why has inter-Service balance remained the same? Perhaps the balance is right, but we have not been told that it is either in the White Paper or in Government speeches.

§ Mr. Emlyn Hooson (Montgomery)

If it were r