PROTECTION OF CHILDREN BILL

§ Mr. Speaker

Before I call the hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) to move his Private Member's Bill, may I say to the House that I understand that almost everybody present in the Chamber intends to catch my eye to speak? It is therefore impossible for everybody who wishes to speak to do so. I intend to give preference in regard to those who wish to catch my eye to hon. Members who have not caught my eye this Session. I think that is fair, except to say that I will try to see that parties are represented.

§ Mr. Cyril D. Townsend (Bexleyheath)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

I am grateful to the House for giving me another opportunity to introduce a Private Member's Bill. My Youth and Community Bill was talked out by a Minister in February 1975. Believing, as I do, in the forgiveness of sins and the redemption of ignorance, I hope that the Minister will harbour no such evil intentions towards this Bill. Perhaps it would be helpful if I were to remind him that his hon. Friend who talked out my last Bill fell by the wayside not long afterwards.

Child pornography is a distasteful subject to debate. Not unnaturally, the vast 1827 majority of our fellow countrymen are not fully aware of its prevalence in these islands, for much of the trade is kept under the counter. But right hon. and hon. Members appreciate from their postbags that there is much growing public anxiety and strong pressure for legislation action. Half a million people have already signed a petition calling for a change in the law. We have a duty to look into the sewers of our society. We have a duty to provide penalties for those who abuse our tolerence and our freedoms. Above all, we have a duty to protect innocent children.

No hon. Member can be unmindful of the Biblical reference to those who offend against "one of these little ones" and of the suggested penalty. I put it to the House, with all the vigour I command, that those who sexually exploit our children are evil men whose activities must be curbed.

I would remind the House of some remarks by Cardinal Heenan: The moral decline of any generation begins with the corruption of the young". Throughout history there has always been a tiny minority who have sought sexual pleasure with children. Throughout history that minority has always been condemned and prosecuted, for obvious reasons. In the Western world, since the last World War, there has been a gradual easing of the laws controlling pornography. In the last few years so-called soft porn has given ground, perhaps inevitably, to so-called hard porn. That, in turn, has led to various deviations such as a vile combination of sex and extreme violence, even murder, and what Americans call "kiddie porn".

The majority of Western countries and States have either set up investigations into child porn or have passed new laws. I shall not discuss what happens in Communist countries, but hon. Members will be aware that such countries have always taken a very strong line against internal pornography. Even in the countries in which porn is freely available to adults, there are usually restrictions on the sale or distribution of obscene material to minors.

In Australia the Police Offences Act 1977 introduced penalties of fines or imprisonment for any person concerned in the production or publication of obscene articles involving a person under 16. In Sweden a committee was ap 1828 pointed by the Government last year, and the embassy tells me that legislation is expected shortly. On Monday President Carter put his name to an amendment to the American Child Protection Act to prevent the sexual exploitation and abuse of children. A total of 35 American States have passed laws prohibiting child porn.

Accustomed as we are in Britain to being influenced by what goes on in the United States, we must take careful note of what has been going on there. An horrific article appeared in The Sunday Times on 4th December under the heading "The Chicken Hawks of Los Angeles" which reported a police sergeant as saying Thirty thousand boys and girls are sexually exploited by adults in Los Angeles every year.…At least 25,000 have had their pictures taken for sexploitation movies or magazines. According to the Chicago Tribune, child pornography and child prostitution, once confined to the darker shadows of American life, have blazed into the open in cities across the country in the last 18 months. They have become highly organised multi-million-dollar industries operating on a scale that few Americans have begun to comprehend. An American doctor who is fighting this trade is reported as saying They are destroyed by these experiences. They are emotionally and spiritually murdered. In London this week is the leading international authority on the world trade in child pornography, Dr. Densen-Gerber. I am most grateful to her for her expert legal and medical advice and wholehearted support. Last night at a meeting in Westminster Hall she told us that the United States was producing 269 child porn magazines a month. She estimated that 1 million children had been caught up in child prostitution in her country.

As a psychiatrist, Dr. Densen-Gerber has put forward a most powerful case against the assertion that child porn does not cause crime and results only in what is called masturbatory release. She is convinced that it damages more children, by stimulating and encouraging the deviance of those whose own sexual drive is dangerous to them.

In recent months I have carried out a nationwide investigation into child porn in Britain. I have consulted the police, 1829 child welfare organisations, the Churches and other religious bodies as well as the parents of children who have become entangled in it. I have been greatly assisted by the National Abuse Compaign—Action to Ban Sexual Exploitation of Children—and the Festival of Light. I have benefited from the knowledge and experience of those who have carried out detailed research in this field over the past year or so.

It is clear that the vast majority of child porn, perhaps over 80 per cent., comes from abroad—from Sweden, Holland and Germany in particular. The authorities would appear to have legal powers to deal with the imported pictures, under the Customs and Excise legislation, but they are hampered by a shortage of manpower. It is clearly difficult to search one container lorry for a packet of porn, let along 100. This smuggled-in material has titles such as "Lolita", "Children Love" and "Lust for Children". The magazines sell in our streets and cities for between £2 and £8 a copy.

It is impossible to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the photographing of children for pornographic purposes is on the increase in Britain, although the majority of those whom I have consulted believe that that is so. After all, we are considering an activity that has one foot in the criminal underworld. But there must be no doubt that the photographing of children for such purposes is widespread in this country, and is not confined to Greater London or the big cities.

There have been too many articles and reports in the newspapers in the past few months to leave any doubt. I wish to praise The Times, the London Evening News and Evening Standard, The Sun and the Daily Mirror for their recent investigatory journalism. The Sun had a very good article. Marjorie Proops of the Daily Mirror wrote: In the past I have defended certain types of pornographic publications—have even suggested that soft porn can help couples with sexual problems. I didn't think I would ever be shocked by anything published under the general label of pornography. But the child-porn books I have seen during the Mirror's investigations have disgusted me beyond description. BBC Television had a most convincing programme on the subject which was shown again to hon Members on Mon- 1830 day. Incidentally, the producer told me that he had at first pooh-poohed the seriousness of the matter, but he had been shocked by what the BBC researchers had unearthed. The programme proved conclusively that photographs of this sort are being taken in Britain.

I am indebted to the Director of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children for the following significant statement: We do from time to time have to deal with cases where our officers discover that children are being photographed for pornographic purposes and under our standing arrangements with the Home Office we report these to the police for prosecution of any offence and ourselves take any necessary steps for the protection of the children. Both the police and we are often inhibited by the present state of the criminal law. Yet the Home Office mind remains unmoved. As recently as 18th November—I hear the Home Secretary muttering—the Minister of State wrote to my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) stating blandly: The Home Secretary has no evidence of the existence of any significant problem which the law is at present inadequate to cope with. One wonders what the Home Office has done to consult those best able to advise it.

The last chilling pronouncement from the Minister was delivered to me 10 days ago. He wrote: Your draft Bill, which raises a number of issues of principle, tends to reinforce our feelings that these matters would be better left to the kind of review presently being undertaken by the Williams Committee and that legislation in advance of the resolution of these issues in the wider context is bound to have unsatisfactory features. Then comes a line that I thought perhaps heralded the end of the Ice Age: This does not mean that the Government wish to oppose your Bill. However, one's heart plunges again when one reads the last sentence: I attach a separate note setting out some comments, which in some cases raise questions of a fairly fundamental nature. How could this great Department of State get out of touch not only with the man in the street but with the policeman on the spot?

§ Mr. Neil Macfarlane (Sutton and Cheam)

I am following closely what my hon. Friend says, and my fears are very 1831 much compounded by it. On 1st February I asked a Question to try to ascertain whether the Home Office could identify the number of prosecutions of those involved in purveying or promoting pornographic material involving children. I asked for figures for each year since 1965. The reply from the Minister of State, which I hesitate to tell the House, was: From the information collected centrally, statistics of proceedings relating to pornographic material involving children cannot be separately identified. —[Official Report, 1st February 1978: Vol. 943, c. 158.]

§ Mr. Townsend

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. A number of us have had trouble trying to discover the present position. I hope that the Minister will reply in detail to the point my hon. Friend has just raised.

This week I received a most important letter from one of Britain's most able and effective chief constables, the Chief Constable of the Greater Manchester Police. He said that there had been a number of cases in his area of indecent photographs of children being taken, and added: many of the cases now giving cause for public concern do not come within the ambit of current legislation…There is clear evidence from several of my police divisions that more and more pornographic material seized by my officers depicts young children…It is estimated by my Vice Squad officers that of all the material seized from hard porn' book shops in Greater Manchester approximately 5 per cent. of it relates to child pornography…In this connection, books seized have included scenes of buggery, sexual intercourse, masturbation, sex between children and other nude photographs all involving children…Another of my divisional Vice-Squads has reported that films of children engaged in sexual acts with adults have also featured regularly in raids on book shops… He goes on: In my personal and considered opinion, the law relating to the involvement of children and young persons in sexual activities could be improved to deal particularly with cases in which children are photographed or filmed for pornographic purposes". That is the professional view of an outstanding police officer. It is fully supported by the evidence that I have received from other police officers up and down the country.

§ Mr. William Molloy (Ealing, North)

Could the same senior police officer give instances of where he had been successful in bringing people before the courts for this abominable behaviour?

§ Mr. Townsend

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no problem in certain areas. If the photographer goes on to assault the child, he can be prosecuted. I would make the point that it is not that Greater Manchester is unlike other cities, only that Greater Manchester is a step ahead in dealing with what goes on.

We would be wise to recognise that a lucrative market has been established in Britain. The evidence from the police is that sophisticated operators are well versed in the law's current confusions and I would add that the most professional operators are not so stupid as to lay a finger on the child, yet that is the very group that I am after.

If as a result of new legislation passed in the United States, which has been supplying much of the material, foreign supplies diminish—as presumably they will—our own pornographic photographers will fill the gap and build their fortunes on the ruin of our children.

Before turning to the individual clauses in the Bill, there are other important points of a general nature that I should like to make. First, it should be understood that children from low-income families, one-parent families and broken homes are more likely to be at risk because they are easier for the photographers to get hold of.

Second, Indian and West Indian children are being used increasingly, possibly because they are more readily available and possibly because their photographs are preferred by the purchasers.

Third, child models are not infrequently sexually assaulted. I trust that no hon. Member would be so foolish as to suggest that because there are adequate laws to deal with cases of sexual assault there is, therefore, no requirement for a new law to prevent the sexual exploitation of those who are not also sexually assaulted.

Fourth, the police tell me that porn, and particularly child porn, is often used to encourage child models to adopt obscene poses and, indeed, to have sexual 1833 relationships with other children, adults and even animals.

Fifth, we now have in Britain an abominable child sex group called the Paedophile Information Exchange. Hon. Members will know that it has been publicly pressing for legislation to allow sexual relationships with children down to the age of four, believe it or not. It claims 250 members in Great Britain. It has its own nationwide news sheet and contact lists.

§ Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South-West)

In passing, will my hon. Friend say how gratifying is the news that the abominable creature who helped to run that organisation has been expelled from the Open University?

§ Mr. Townsend

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Dr. Densen-Gerber told me this week that in addition it sends information throughout the world and is becoming the centre of the network. It feeds on child porn and is most certainly interested in British children who feature in child porn pictures.

Sixth, on the reliable information that I have been given—I have met many funny people in recent weeks—even the porn merchants themselves have become concerned about this insidious and revolting trend in porn.

Seventh, sexual offences against children in Great Britain are on the increase. In the years 1964, 1965 and 1966 there were 770 offences known to the police of unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl under 13. The figure for the years 1974, 1975 and 1976 was 926. Taking those same years, the number of offences known to the police of unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl under 16 rose from 11,877 to 13,592.

The Home Secretary looks puzzled. He should presumably know these figures.

§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Merlyn Rees)

I was not puzzled. I was looking horrified because I have to look at this stuff. It is the muckiest, most horrible stuff that I have to look at. I was not looking puzzled at all. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will deal with this subject in such a way that we can all be helpful rather than in the way in which he is presently dealing with it.

§ Mr. Townsend

Again taking the same years, the number of people found guilty of gross indecency with a child rose from 31 to 145. In the words of the leader in The Times of 9th September: All advertising is based on the principle that whatever arouses intense interest also tends to encourage people to act. Common sense suggests that this applies to pornography". I should perhaps mention that New Scotland Yard has had to deal with 36 cases of child prostitution in the last two year.

I am indebted to the many eminent QCs and legal experts who have advised me on the present state of the law. The Obscene Publications Acts of 1959 and 1964, the Children and Young Persons (Harmful Publications) Act 1955 and the Sexual Offences Act 1956 all border this grey area. However, the most relevant Act is the Indecency with Children Act 1960. A yawning chasm will immediately be seen with regard to this Act because it is concerned only with children under 14. It does not protect young people between the ages of 14 and 16—two very vulnerable years when they are not only approaching sexual maturity but also when they are of special interest to the photographer and more likely to be away from their parents and thus available.

Worse, the extent of the operation of this Act is by no means clear, for it contains the unhappy and unhelpful phrase with or towards a child". What does that mean? Careful research shows that to all intents and purposes those who take obscene photographs of children, without assaulting them or touching them, are not being prosecuted, because of the great uncertainty of the law. Even if it were possible to prosecute successfully, the penalties would be inadequate.

§ Sir Bernard Braine (Essex South-East)

We are all following very closely the massive case which my hon. Friend is making for a change in the law. I am puzzled, as I am sure are other hon. Members, by one thing. There is no reference in my hon. Friend's Bill to the text of child pornography, which experts tell me can often be more explicit, degrading and corrupting than actual 1835 photographs. I find it difficult to understand why—given that my hon. Friend has the opportunity of carrying what I hope will be the whole of the House of Commons with him—he has not attempted to cover that area as well.

§ Mr. Townsend

As usual, my hon. Friend has raised a most important point. I shall be explaining in a moment why I have restricted my Bill in that way that I have.

The Home Secretary will not like my subsequent remarks, but he had better learn the truth. I believe that his Department has gained a most unwholesome reputation for complacency and indifference. It is a national scandal that the Home Office is not supporting this Bill—only not officially opposing it.

First, we were told that there were no problems. Then we were told that the problems had been exaggerated by the media and Mrs. Mary Whitehouse. Next, we were told that it would be difficult to legislate. Each defence line in turn has had to be abandoned under the sheer weight of evidence. Today, no doubt the Minister will tell us that legislation should follow the findings of the committee of inquiry under Professor Williams. That argument does not stand up for a moment and—I give the Minister credit—he knows that it does not.

The Williams Committee has a major job of work to do breathing sanity and force into our muddled and outdated laws on obscenity, indecency and violence. It had its first meeting in the autumn. I am told, from a reliable source, that it is unlikely to report for two or three years. By that time, it is highly likely that a new Government will be ramming their legislative programme through the House of Commons. We all know that there can be no guarantee of legislation. It could be four or five years before the first criminal is convicted under legislation which flows from the work of the Williams Committee.

At Question Time on 17th November the Home Secretary was agreeably robust. He gave the impression that if action were needed it would be taken in advance of the Williams Committee. Under pressure from both sides of the House, he went so far as to say of child pornography: 1836 …I have no liberality in this matter It is wrong and ought to be dealt with."—[Official Report, 17th November 1977, Vol. 939, c. 738.] The question that I ask is: why this February frost? I remind the House that the Government did not hesitate to amend the control of films by laws in matters of obscenity by Section 53 of the Criminal Law Act 1977, which came into force on 1st December last year, though the Williams Committee is charged to consider obscenity in publication and film censorship. Let it never be said that the well-paid voices of the British film industry are heard more clearly in this House than the voices of our children.

§ Mr. Eldon Griffiths (Bury St. Edmunds)

Does my hon. Friend agree that we cannot wait for the report of the Williams Committee because, in the meantime, the problem is getting worse? The police service has received, through the aegis of the Home Office, proposals that the age of consent should be reduced to 14 for both girls and boys—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—for heterosexual and homosexual behaviour, that the offence of rape should be abolished, that incest should no longer be a specifically defined criminal offence when committed between mutually consenting persons over 14 and that sections of the 1956 and 1967 Acts relating to buggery should be repealed. [HON. MEMBERS "Shame"] Those matters have been conveyed to the police by the Home Office and the police have been asked to consider and give their advice upon them. I do not allege that the Home Office is a party to those suggestions. I say only that it has asked the police to consider them. While we are waiting for Williams, the whole trend of legislation is going in the opposite direction.

§ Mr. Townsend

My hon. Friend has raised a most interesting hare and I am tempted to follow it, but I presume that the Minister will wish to reply to that matter.

§ Mr. John Loveridge (Upminster)

Is my hon. Friend aware that it may be legally possible for salacious material to be put in our public libraries for children? I recall that 20 years ago, when I was chairman of a group of public libraries, we had put before us cartoons filled with double meanings which could only be described as specific training for children 1837 in looking for double sexual meanings. We were advised that legally that material could be put in our libraries. I am happy to say that that public library committee refused to carry such stock. However, I think that it is legally possible. Indeed, I have had a complaint from a constituent that such material has been given to one of his children.

§ Mr. Speaker

Order. Interventions should be limited to seeking a little explanation of what is being said by the hon. Member who is addressing the House. If there are too many interventions, still fewer Members will be called.

§ Mr. Townsend

My hon. Friend has raised that matter with me before, and it should be considered.

I should like to turn to some aspects of this modest Bill. I regard it as a finger-in-the-dyke sort of Bill. I have resisted the temptation to put forward a measure that would deal with all aspects of the sexual exploitation of children. It must be for the Government to reconstruct the dyke and to contain the rising flood.

I have tried to produce a Bill that will not only be acceptable to the House and become law without delay, but will also protect children where they are most vulnerable.

Clause 1 is the heart of the Bill. I believe it is right that the courts should decide what is indecent rather than that Parliament should attempt to define that word too precisely.

Section 11 of the Post Office Act 1953 uses the same word. If I were pressed to say what I consider to be indecent, I would fall back on a famous legal definition of the noble Lord Reid: It includes anything which an ordinary decent man or woman would find to be shocking, disgusting and revolting". I do not think for a moment that a jury would apply those words to the sort of shot that a grandmother might take of a grandchild on a rug before the fire. Of course, I have nothing against nudity as such.

In Clause 1(1) (c) possesses with a view to production was thought more satisfactory than the one word "possesses", which is, of 1838 course, stronger. In the early drafts of this clause the words "any such" were used, tying in this subsection to Clause 1(1)(a). But on reflection I cannot find any good arguments for imposing such a restriction and one which would hamper the police.

In Clause 1(2) it will be seen that an offence is still committed if the act is in private. That is surely right when the aim is to protect children.

Clear and effective powers of seizure and destruction will be found in Clause 3.

During my studies of this subject I have been appalled by the high risks of blackmail which accompany child pornography. Both the child models and their parents are, in the opinion of many policemen, in real danger from the blackmailers.

I know many police officers feel that these powers would be of great help to them in what is a particularly difficult task. It is difficult enough catching a photographer specialising in this evil trade. When he is caught, the photographs and negatives must be seized and destroyed.

Clause 4 gives a defence that I believe will be regarded as both adequate and, above all, fair.

I do not have strong personal feelings on Clause 5, and I look forward to being guided by the wisdom of the House on this restriction. Many of my supporters feel that it is a mistake and point to the DPP's record. Legal advice has been two to one in favour on the grounds that it is traditional in Bills of this nature and that it will give some measure of uniformity. This Bill has long and sharp teeth, which are not immediately apparent, and on the whole perhaps this clause supplies balance and a filter against frivolous prosecutions.

The House will note the heavy penalties given in Clause 6. I suggest they will be effective for they will deter. They take into account the vast sums of money that I have already mentioned.

In Clause 7 it will be seen that the Bill gives protection to those under 16. It was put to me that 18 would be a more suitable age. However, I note that Britain's leading advertising agencies employ girls of 16 and over, and children are maturing much earlier. Sixteen is the 1839 age of consent and, in my view, the correct age to select.

§ Mr. Michael Mates (Petersfield)

Will my hon. Friend ask the Minister to explain why such a Bill, disregarding the merits of its contents, should not apply throughout the United Kingdom?

§ Mr. Townsend

I should have liked to include both Scotland and Northern Ireland but I was persuaded that to take on the legal experts of the Scottish Office and the Northern Ireland Office, as well as those too numerous to mention in the Minister's Department, might bring me a medal, but would probably bring me my defeat.

One reason for the length of the Bill is that we have attempted to build on the framework of existing English laws. May I make it crystal clear that if the House is of a mind to pass the Bill, my supporters and I will immediately press the Government to extend its provisions to Scotland and Northern Ireland?

I am only too well aware that many hon. Members are waiting to take part in the debate. Before I sit down I should like to make a brief reference to the general attitude in the Western World towards pornography, for it is foolish to consider the Bill in isolation.

For many years, perhaps a majority in Britain and in this House have given their general support to a relaxing of the laws on pornography. They felt that in the modern world people should, on the whole, be allowed to see and read what they want. They watched the experiments that Denmark was making and hoped that evidence would be forthcoming to prove that liberalisation would result in fewer sex crimes, fewer cases of rape, and fewer assaults on children.

The House should be aware of a most important recent report written by Dr. Court of Flinders University, South Australia, for its findings are highly relevant to my Bill. Using evidence from diverse contexts, the report shows an increase both in serious and more minor sex offences in those places where a liberal approach to pornography has been adopted. Court also shows that where a more restrictive policy towards pornography has been adopted there has not been the same increase in sex crimes—evidence that confounds the earlier work of Kutchinsky.

1840 I do not feel that I need go into the effects suffered by the children who are exploited. I have spoken to a number of parents of such children and as one would suspect, the damage is considerable not only to the child but to the family. In one case that I remember the photographer had alienated the child from his parents and also blackmailed him by threatening to show photographs already taken to his headmaster.

I should like to read to the House an extract from a letter that I have received from General Brown of the Salvation Army: The Salvation Army has been greatly concerned to discover that children under the age of 16 and in some cases of very tender years have been used as models for sex orientated photography. Information reaching us both from our own sources and elsewhere supports the view that incalculable harm can be done to the child victims of this trade, to their families, and to others associated with it. He should be in a wood position to know.

The Bill is required urgently to fill a gap in the law.

§ Mr. Wyn Roberts (Conway)

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He has been very generous in giving way to those who wish to intervene.

Will my hon. Friend press the Government on this issue? He has the support of hon. Members in many parts of the House for the Bill, and the Government have said that they will not oppose it. Why do not the Government let the Bill go through, and in Committee try to improve any defects that there might be in it?

§ Mr. Townsend

I am sure that the Minister will have noted my hon. Friend's remarks.

I believe that the Bill is wanted now. I believe, too, that we have a new situation that requires new legislation. The situation will get infinitely worse if we do not act. In a historic speech to the Church of England Synod on 1st February Cardinal Hume said: …contemporary society is witnessing an unprecedented spread of pornography which divorces sexuality from human love…The most recent and distressing development has been the increasing use of children for pornographic purposes. There are apparently loopholes in our legislation. Parliament will soon be discussing proposals to prevent exploitation of children in this way. Our united Christian 1841 concern should express itself vigorously on this commercial practice which all decent people must surely regard with horror and contempt. It is no exaggeration to say that many millions of people up and down these islands are waiting anxiously to learn of our decision today. Shall we lose our way in legal labyrinths? Shall we procrastinate? Or will Parliament protect those whom we have a historic duty to protect—those who cannot protect themselves? We acted to prevent abuse of little children as chimney sweeps and in the factories. We acted to prevent their abuse in dark satanic mills and deep down in the mines. Shall we act today to prevent their abuse in child pornography?

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Brynmor John)

I intervene early in the debate, and I am afraid that, however good my intention, it will be necessary, in order to do justice to the subject, that I speak at reasonable length I hope that I shall not shut out hon. Members by so doing.

In intervening at this early stage I make it clear that the Government will do nothing to deny the Bill a Second Reading. I hope that the lion. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts) who had some textural difficulty in saying that "not op-opposing" means "opposing", will now be clear about the Government's attitude to the Bill.

Let me deal also with another side wind that was introduced in a typically unscrupulous fashion by the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Griffiths), when he suggested that the Home Office had instituted a suggestion to the police that the age of consent should be lowered. I have to deal with that because it is instructive of what the hon. Gentleman does.

The Criminal Law Revision Committee, which is an independent body set up by this House and chaired by Lord Justice Lawton—an eminent judge, as those who know him will confirm—is conducting a review of the whole law of sexual offences with a view to codifying it. Uncertainties have been spoken about and codification of the law is what we are aiming at to get greater certainty. The committee has circulated to the police 1842 and other organisations a consultation document mentioning the various possibilities that have been canvassed by some outside bodies. The Committee is as-sited by a policy advisory committee on sexual offences, but as hon. Members will know—many of them have written to me on this subject on behalf of their constituents—I have made it clear time and again that the Government themselves have proposed no change in the age of consent. Let me dispose of that canard at the beginning.

§ Mr. Eldon Griffiths

If the Minister will examine Hansard tomorrow he will see that I started explicitly that I do not suggest that the Home Office suggested it. The Minister has raised an important matter and the House will want to know the truth. I did not suggest that the Home Office itself was a party to this suggestion, and Hansard will prove that.

What I said to my hon. Friend was that the precise suggestions conveyed by the Home Office to the Police Federation, seeking its views, could lead to the whole trend of legislation going in the opposite direction from that which my hon. Friend wishes, while we are waiting for the Williams Committee to report.

§ Mr. John

I treat that intervention with the contempt that it deserves. I want to elevant the debate to a much higher level than the hon. Gentleman is ever capable of doing.

There should always be three stages by which the House of Commons considers private legislation relating to the criminal law. The first involves consideration of the question whether there is an abuse, and, if so what is its nature. The second concerns the question whether there is a need for fresh legislation—which inevitably leads us to a consideration of the extent of the present law. The third involves examination of the legislation to see how it tackles that task.

Let me deal first with the question of the abuse. Because of the way in which some people conceive it as part of their duty to guard the nation's morals by directly or indirectly denigrating Home Office Ministers—I was sorry that even the hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) did it—it is necessary for me to say at the outset that my right hon. 1843 Friend and I yield to no one in our detestation of the use of children in pornography.

§ Mr. Dan Jones (Burnley)

rose—

§ Mr. John

My hon. Friend always has something worth while to say. I shall give way to him, but I shall be grateful if he will allow me to complete my statement on the attitude of the Home Office towards this subject. It is important, in view of the statements that have been made, that I make it crystal clear.

The Home Office believes that no society should tolerate the corruption of children either for perverted sexual pleasure or, worse, the cynical desire to profit from the perversions of others. We are therefore determined to enable the law to give every reasonable assistance to the police in bringing to justice those who are guilty of these vile practices. I hope, therefore, that this statement will put on the record clearly and unambiguously our view of the subject. I am sorry that those who are calling for a higher moral tone in our nation's affairs, such as Mr. Ronald Butt, in The Times, should devote so much of their time ascribing unworthy motives to others. We are all at one in this. We differ as to means, perhaps, but not as to ends. I hope that all hon. Members will deal with the subject in that spirit.

As a Home Office Minister, I have also the duty to check the necessity for and the correctness of new legislation in this field, which, by its nature, in criminal law may affect the freedom of individuals. Too often the courts are, by well-meaning Private Members' legislation, placed in an almost impossible task by the House. It is my duty wherever possible to try to avoid that situation. It is a duty from which I will not shrink even though by so doing I may be misrepresented in some quarters.

I shall now examine the nature of the problem and the question of its coverage by the existing law.

§ Mr. Dan Jones

I beg my hon. Friend not to be tempted to make this a partisan issue.

§ Mr. John Mendelson (Penistone)

The Minister is not doing that.

§ Mr. Jones

I do not ascribe any ill motive to either the Minister of State or 1844 his superior at the Home Office, but will he tell us precisely why we have been waiting for almost four years for action on this? In order to get the record straight, let the Minister understand that before that time the Conservative Home Secretary was in a similar position, but I beg him not to make any kind of partisan issue of this.

§ Mr. John

My hon. Friend's intervention is one of the worst that I have ever heard from him. He and I are old friends, but I must confess that if he had listened to the speech made by the hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend)—

§ Mr. Jones

I did.

§ Mr. John

It is proper that I should try to defend myself and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I am trying to unite the House by saying that all hon. Members are united in detesting this matter. I hope that my hon. Friend will not feel it necessary to ascribe an un-worth motive to me in this debate.

§ Mr. Jones

Indeed, I do not.

§ Mr. John

Let me examine the nature of the problem and consider the question of its coverage by the existing law. The hon. Member for Bexleyheath asked what consultations we have had on the subject. I can tell him that over the past months we have been consulting many of the police forces in this country about the nature and the incidence of the problem, and what difficulties they find in the present law.

One of the forces that we have consulted is the Greater Manchester Police. At no time until Mr. Anderton's name appeared in the Press yesterday had we received the sort of advice from him which was attributed to the police yesterday. It is a great pity, that being so, that that advice was not tendered to us at an earlier stage. We also consulted a number of other bodies, including the West Midland force. We did that as late as yesterday.

§ Mr. Edward Gardner (South Fylde)

rose—

§ Mr. John

I understand that hon. Members are anxious to get on the record by intervening, but if I give way to every intervention I shall still be here at 4 o'clock, and that will be taken as a 1845 devious Home Office plot to talk the Bill out.

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has a special responsibility for the Metropolitan Police. Because of that, and because I believe that London probably has more experience of pornography than anywhere else, I held a meeting yesterday with the officers responsible for combating this trade. What I say now represents the consensus that we have received from the forces on this subject.

§ Mr. Gardner

I was trying to make a helpful intervention by asking the Minister whether he agrees that although the difficulties of creating a law to deal with this problem are formidable, they are not insuperable. Does the Minister have any reason to dispute that the Chief Constable of the Greater Manchester Police has said that 5 per cent. of hard pornography in his area in the North-West is child pornography and that it appears to be increasing?

§ Mr. John

When we checked with the chief constable personally, yesterday, he said that he had no hard figures to back that up. We are trying to get from him hard facts to check the position.

As for my giving way only to helpful interventions, hon. Members will have to have some sort of lighting system so that I can know which are helpful and which are unhelpful.

Let me go on to say what advice we have received as a result of our consultations. Although it is true that what is indecent to some people differs widely from what is indecent to others, there is pornography which shows children, sometimes very young children, being used sexually by adults or in sexual activity with one another. Such pornography is almost exclusively manufactured abroad. The Chief Constable of Great Manchester Police disagrees with the unknown attribution in The Times yesterday that three-quarters of the hard porn in this category is home-produced. It is not so. Our researches lead us to believe that it is almost exclusively manufactured abroad.

As it is imported, there is ample legislation to deal with it, whether it is obscene or indecent. Customs officials can and do act without hesitation to seize all such 1846 material discovered by them. Obviously, it is impossible completely to prevent it getting into the country in this way. Some of it gets through, mainly by smuggling. But where obscene material gets through we have the Obscene Publications Act as a means of dealing with it. This includes powers of seizure and forfeiture, and there is a maximum sentence of three years' imprisonment under that Act.

§ Mr. John

May I finish this point before giving way? It is a point which I believe ought to be dealt with. According to the Customs authorities and the largest police forces, the amount of such foreign-produced hard pornography in circulation is not great and does not show a rapid increase in recent times. Any Press reports to the contrary do not represent the views of the police forces in their talks with us.

This view is reinforced by the experience of the London Evening News reporter who, having believed that such hard pornography of a Scandinavian origin was freely available, was challenged by the police to find it in Soho and failed to do so. But we are not complacent about the situation.

If any hon. Member believes that this pornography is being offered for sale, he or she should report it to the police. I shall ensure that the debate is drawn to the attention of every chief constable in the country. We have adequate powers to catch this type of foreign, hard pornography now. We do not need to wait for the Bill to be put on the statute book. I shall ensure that the police energetically follow up any information given by hon. Members.

§ Mr. Sandelson

There is a point that is of some importance, though not directly bearing on this measure. It arises out of something that the Minister has just said about the penalty. The maximum penalty that can be imposed on indictment for smuggling quantities of hard pornographic material from abroad, whatever may be its evil content and in what-ever quantity, is a period of three years' imprisonment. Will the Minister tell the House why the penalty in that case should be a three-year term, whereas the equivalent penalty for evasion of similar 1847 prohibitions on the importation of controlled drugs is very much more—

§ Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has indicated that he is hoping to catch my eye. Surely he could make this point during the debate rather than take time up now.

§ Mr. John

Let me say briefly to my hon. Friend that obviously that is a matter that we shall discuss in Committee. I do not think that I should weary the House by dealing with it now.

I was about to move on from the question of foreign manufacture of hard pornography in this country. It happens all the time that there are cases which do not come to the attention of the responsible authority. They are isolated, and certainly not, according to the information I have, on a large scale. Indeed, I would point out to the House that the motivation for such pictures stems not from the motive of financial gain but is part of a process of sexual corruption, usually by homosexuals, during which more serious offences are committed against children. These are dealt with by prosecuting under more serious charges such as happened in a case last year when a number of men were convicted of a large number of serious sexual offences. The ringleader received five years' imprisonment.

The Obscene Publications Act also applies in this instance. Under the Act the possession of an obscene photographic negative for publication for gain is an offence, so that the photographer is covered by the Act just as much as the publisher or seller. I accept what the hon. Gentleman says, that obscenity has a much higher threshold than indecency. It is right to reassure people about the existing ambit of the law.

I have spoken so far about the worst filth and I hope that I have shown that both the law and its enforcement are strong. There is a range of other material, which we call soft pornography, which varies greatly in its offensiveness. This does not portray sexual activity but, in the area of child pornography, usually portrays solitary children, either nude or semi-clad, sometimes posing provocatively. I accept that this material is more widely obtainable by those who know where to look for it. But it is by no means 1848 as freely obtainable as the soft pornography involving women—the so-called "girlie" magazines which seem to be on sale at most newsagents these days. Clearly, in so far as the material is from abroad, it can be seized by Customs men as indecent. The problem is not one of law but of enforcement in respect of material of foreign manufacture. For the home-produced variety, we equally clearly have the question whether the less offensive material would be regarded as obscene. It would depend on the views of the courts.

A quantity of material of this kind has been seized by the Metropolitan Police and we are at present awaiting the decision of the courts upon it. However, seizure of the material, whether soft or hard pornography, is in my view, secondary to the aim of protecting the children. I hope that everyone will agree with that. It is as a consequence of that that I consulted the Director of Public Prosecutions with his wide, indeed unmatched, experience in dealing with and reviewing cases of this kind.

The Director emphasises that the cases where no criminal charges at all are possible are emphatically rare. Almost always circumstances permit charges to be brought, either involving serious sexual offences towards the person concerned or else involving offences under the Obscene Publications Act. I am not saying that there are no theoretical gaps in the law and this Bill may well help in plugging them up. What I do say is that in practice those gaps are very few and, practically, non-existent. Even on the case put forward by the hon. Member for Bexley-heath, and I hope that we shall reach a measure of agreement on this, the Bill will aim at dealing with the rare rather than the commonplace circumstance of pornography.

§ Mr. Hugh Dykes (Harrow, East)

There seems to be an unnecessary conflict entering into this debate. I am sure that the House would agree that the Government are at one with all hon. Members in wishing to deal with this problem. The Minister spoke of making comparisons with the conventional "girlie" magazines and soft child pornography. Is he aware that the promoter of the Bill and the other sponsors, including myself, have, unfortunately, inevitably had to 1849 look at some of this soft porn material? Is he aware that it is no way to be regarded, on any subjective judgment or any reasonable, objective value judgment, as being as innocuous, in the modern sense of the word, as a conventional "girlie" magazine?

§ Mr. John

I was trying to make a quantitative comparison dealing with how freely available soft children's pornography is. I am not saying that soft pornography involving mature women is anything like as repulsive as child pornography. I, too, have had the dubious distinction of having to look at some of these books in the course of preparing for this debate. I agree with the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) about the qualitative judgment. I was trying to make a quantitative comparison concerning how freely available this material was.

The reason why I hope we shall reach agreement on this point about the law covering the major elements and the fact that all but the rare circumstance is covered, is that, like everyone else in the House, I have received a great volume of correspondence from within my constituency and without dealing with this question. The overwhelming impression I have received is not only of the revulsion which people feel about the use of children in pornography. I have also sensed the unwritten assumption in almost all of those letters that there is no law protecting children from exploitation in this way. This is not so.

As I have said, the Government will do absolutely nothing to impede this Bill and prevent it from receiving a Second Reading and going into Committee, but we know that it will inevitably take some time to enact. What I am worried about is that if we pitch the gaps in the law too high, certainly higher than is warranted, we shall cause, in the meantime, a great number of good, decent and concerned people to have needless apprehension and anxiety on this matter.

It is the duty of the House to be quite clear and firm about the scope of the existing law as well as to project the need for changes. It is, therefore, in the spirit of encouraging a public debate on the present position and the search for something better that we welcome the detailed 1850 scrutiny which a Committee stage on this Bill would provide.

The hon. Member for Bexleyheath mentioned the role that the Home Office has taken in connection with the Bill. He implied that the Home Office had been inactive. I want to put on record publicly that we have met the hon. Member on two occasions and on one occasion with his legal adviser. Part of the letter from which we quoted was a letter which we sent making detailed and constructive suggestions about the drafting of the Bill.

§ Mr. Townsend

indicated assent.

§ Mr. John

The hon. Member is acknowledging that and, to be fair, I think he will acknowledge that the Bill's present form owes something to the constructive work of the Home Office. I am anxious to avoid irritating my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Jones) again. I am just making it clear that we have given the hon. Member for Bexleyheath reasonable help with the drafting of the Bill and we have at no stage evaded his points.

There is a duty on all Ministers of the Crown to satisfy themselves about problems that exist and not to shirk any difficulties. It may well be that the proper place to deal with the points raised by this Bill is in Committee. Let me mention three matters, one of which has already been touched on. First, the test of indecency is certainly a formula known to the law. The hon. Member for Bexleyheath has told us of his intention. That is not an objective test which will apply throughout the country. It is a subjective test which will be interpreted in different ways by different courts in different parts of the country. Clearly, we can say that indecency has a lower threshold of offence than obscenity, but just how much lower is not quite certain and will not be certain even if the Bill becomes law. Therefore, we should not in giving a Second Reading to the Bill pretend that there will be great certainty at the end of it so that everybody will know exactly what is meant.

§ Mr. Richard Luce (Shoreham)

The Minister of State has said—I am sure that the whole House will welcome it—that the Government will not stand in the way of the Bill. Can we also take it that when we reach the Committee stage the 1851 Minister and the Home Office will throw their weight behind advising the Committee as to how the gaps in the law can be stopped—in other words, that they will adopt a more positive approach than the hon. Gentleman has indicated so far?

§ Mr. John

I concede—particularly after long deputations of which the hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) was one member—that gaps in the law need a definition which has so far eluded us. That was one reason why we set up the Williams Committee on Obscenity and Indecency during the proceedings on the Criminal Law Bill. We did not do that as a cover to avoid introducing legislation. It is that our concern spreads over the whole range of pornography. We do not need to give the impression from the House that it is only pornography involving children under 16 about which the House is concerned. Where there is obscenity and indecency outside that age range we desperately need a better definition than the present one. I hope that the Committee will set about its task with that in mind. This is why I say that in Committee we shall give our reasonable and constructive help. However, we shall not shirk from saying where we think that the formula in the Bill is weak. We may well be moving Government amendments to help to try to strengthen it. If the Bill is accorded a Second Reading the Government will abide by and honour the duty of all Members in Committee—that is, to seek to improve the legislation and not in a covert way strangle the principle of the Bill.

Secondly, I will deal with the power of search and seizure contained in Clause 3. This power of search and seizure is much wider than we have granted to the police in other legislation, certainly in the search for and seizure of obscene material for gain. I know that hon. Members are always concerned with the infringement of personal liberties and are certainly concerned about such powers from the civil liberties point of view. I hope that we shall discuss this question thoroughly in Committee, because it is a very important point.

Thirdly, let me highlight a problem which Clause 4 conveys, namely, that the offence created is a wide one whereas the defences allowed for in Clause 4(b) are comparatively narrow. I pose one 1852 problem which is somewhat bizarre but which nevertheless is a very real one if the Bill becomes an Act. The hon. Member for Bexleyheath has been photographed by the newspapers—quite properly—spreading these pieces of filth over his dining room table as part of the process of preparing his presentation of the Bill. However, the available defences in Clause 4(b) might not avail him in a charge brought against him under the Bill when enacted. So the ironic fact is that the hon. Gentleman might in that way technically at any rate, have infringed the provisions of his own measures. I think that it might be improved. All I am saying is that it is one of the major points we shall have to consider.

Let me sum up the Government's attitude. The Government hope that the Bill will receive a Second Reading.

§ Mr. David Weitzman (Hackney, North and Stoke Newington)

I am a little troubled about the proviso in Clause 5. The House will note that under Clause 5 No proceedings shall be instituted except by or with the consent of the Director of public Prosecutions. Yet in the proviso power is given to arrest, issue a warrant for, or remand in custody any person without such a protection.

§ Mr. John

This is one of the points. I have mentioned three and I shall reserve the others for Committee discussion rather than discuss them on the Floor of the House.

I was about to sum up the Government's attitude. The Government hope that the Bill will get a Second Reading, but they will welcome the detailed discussion that it will receive in Committee. We are united, I hope, in the House in our detestation of child pornography. Let no one indulge in the nonsense of claiming a monopoly of moral virtue. We are all concerned about this matter. We must consider the present law as well as the Bill. Let us do our job as serious and responsible parliamentarians so that any resulting legislation will be a credit to us and a blow at the evil rather than a source of endless and continuing confusion which we consign to others to sort out.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant God-man Irvine)

It will come as no surprise 1853 to hon. Members to learn that there is a long list of speakers. I have been asked by Mr. Speaker to appeal to the House for brevity in these circumstances and to say that he would regard it as both selfish and unhelpful if hon. Members were to make lengthy speeches. He suggests that the object should be for hon. Members to indicate, in speeches lasting about five minutes, where they stand. The details can be dealt with in Committee.

§ Mr. Michael Alison (Barkston Ash)

I wish to express my appreciation to the Minister of State for the positive note he has sounded. I wish also to exonerate both the Minister of State and the Home Secretary of any personal disinclination to act. I am sure that they are whole-heartedly behind us. My only fear for the Ministers—this is the occupational hazard of all Ministers—is that they will come more under the influence of their civil servants than under the influence of the House. However, they are wearing their House of Commons hats today and I think we can take it that they are fully behind the object of the Bill.

The most important point to note is the Title—Protection of Children Bill—which my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) has given to the Bill. The Bill is aimed at the protection of children in the context of pornography. We are in danger of following a false trail unless we bear the Title very closely in mind.

The false trail is that the Bill is concerned to lead us into the whole range of problems ordinarily associated with the idea and topic of pornography as such—that is, problems of definition, problems of evaluation, problems of censorship, problems of artistic freedom, literary merit, and so on.

However, that is a false trail, because there is a fundamental difference between the problems of pornography as generally conceived and the problems we are trying to face in the Bill. The difference is this. The whole range of problems with which the ordinary debate about pornography is concerned and with which the Williams Committee on Obscenity and Indecency is concerned is pornography conceived from the point of view of the consumer—the person who reads the 1854 article, the person who sees the film, the person who, unhappily, may see the poster or come across a publication. The whole emphasis in the current debate about pornography is its effect upon the consumer of the material.

The whole object and purpose of the Bill and of the House today is totally different. We are concerned not with the consumer of pornography but solely with the children used in the production of pornography. That is a fundamental and totally different point. The Obscene Publications Act is almost entirely irrelevant to what we are concerned with in the Bill.

That Act is irrelevant to this extent. If one had found a soft porn magazine—let us say the issue of "Lolita" which was on sale at Findlay's the public book stall at St. James's Park Station, the other day—and one had seen the picture of a child which it featured and regarded it as porn, and if a prosecution had been brought under the Obscene Publications Act, it is very unlikely that that magazine would have been found to be depraving or corrupting in the terms of that Act, because that Act is oriented towards the consumer. However, the soft porn effect of that magazine on the consumer which might have been entirely superficial, could at the same time have meant the absolute loss of the child—and its innocence and integrity—used in the photograph.

That is the evil at which the Bill is aimed. The Bill seeks to protect the child used in the soft porn photograph. He or she has already got on to a terrible moving escalator. From his being persuaded—perhaps almost unknowingly and unwittingly—to pose in the nude, a process is started which may lead progressively to more and more explicit poses for the child to adopt, to actual physical assault, corruption and depravity as he gets drawn increasingly into the industry. All that started with an innocent photograph—from the point of view of the Obscene Publications Act—which was not even found to be obscene within the terms of the Act, or so one might be led to believe when listening to the defence by someone such as John Mortimer. The whole publication is then allowed. Meanwhile a child has been lost, through its involvement, and it is the child supremely whom we are here seeking to protect.

1855 I hope that we shall disabuse our minds that this matter is anything to do with the scope or adequacy of the Obscene Publications Act as such. The issue must be—and here we were deeply relieved that the Minister of State accepted that there are gaps in the law—whether the law as such is adequate so far as the child is concerned.

I can refer to only one case which caused me deep concern. That was the Court of Appeal finding of April 1977 that it was not an indecent assault under the Sexual Offences Act 1956 for a man to photograph nude boys. That Act therefore is not a fit instrument with which to bring a prosecution against a man for photographing boys or children in the nude. The quashed conviction on that case demonstrated that fact.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath has shown that the Indecency with Children Act 1960 has a serious gap in terms of the age range. It covers children only up to the age of 14. The Minister of State will appreciate that we already rule, under the sex law affecting children, that a child cannot give consent until the age of 16, so that consent by a child is not a defence for the one accused of assault. If that is the view we take of children—that they cannot be held responsible for their actions in this matter up to the age of 16—we must close the gap. It must be possible to bring a prosecution under the 1960 Act at least up to the age of 16. Moreover it is not clear that the crime of gross indecency with or against a child under that Act would cover photography.

§ Mr. Emlyn Hooson (Montgomery)

The hon. Member is on to a very important point. Would not the simplest way of dealing with this matter be to amend the law so that it becomes an assault to take a photograph in these circumstances?

§ Mr. Alison

I believe that that is precisely what my hon. Friend's Bill will succeed in doing, given Government support. It is, in fact, by focusing simply and solely on the child and on the danger to which the child is exposed in this trade that we are creating a simple and straight-forward new form of sexual offence against a child—that is, the taking of an indecent photograph of the child.

All the existing legal problems about proving a sexual assault, which are com- 1856 plicated enough where a child is concerned, are completely solved simply by the appearance of a child in what a jury might find to be an indecent pose in a photograph. That would then be held to be a case of sexual assault. From that point on all those who had taken the photograph, reproduced it, distributed it and retailed it would, under the Bill, become liable.

That is an immensely powerful instrument and we should seize it in the Bill as drafted and, with Home Office assistance, race it through the House to produce this straightforward new form of sexual assault on the child—the photographing of a child under the age of 16 indecently.

§ Sir Bernard Braine

We are all following my hon. Friend's speech with the closest of interest. Will he answer a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) did not deal with? Why is there a separation between the text and the photograph? Why is the text connected with a photograph, both of which are obscene, excluded from the Bill? Why cannot we deal with these matters together?

§ Mr. Alison

If my hon. Friend reflects on this he will notice this essential and fundamental difference, that a photograph is necessarily personalised in respect of the subject in it. The text is necessarily and invariably depersonalised, fictional, romantic and probably a figment of the imagination. It is susceptible to the Obscene Publications Act 1959 which deals with the written and published word. But the Obscene Publications Act might find a particular text to be innocuous or not liable to deprave or corrupt. It might even find the photograph of the child not, from the point of view of the consumer, depraving or corrupting. It is not, however, getting at the appalling damage which has been done to the individual child by having to appear in a soft porn photograph.

We face here a unique problem concerning the subjects or models of pornographic productions and not the objects or consumers of them. There is a real gap in the law, and I do not think that the Williams Committee is relevant to it. The Minister of State has shown a positive and helpful approach and I hope that he will enable us to get this new form 1857 of prohibition against sexual assault on to the statute book.

§ Mr. Arthur Bottomley (Middlesbrough)

Mr. Speaker's wish that our contributions should be brief, concise and to the point will not be lost on me. I cannot promise to be as brief as 15 of the hon. Members who have already taken part in the debate, although I shall not be considerably longer.

Let me first stress that I would be disappointed if every time there was an emotional outburst on a point of public opinion the Home Office rushed ahead with legislation. But the content of the Bill presented by the hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend)—I congratulate him on doing so—will, I think, as a result of debate and discussion, influence the Home Office to go further and to give it positive support.

I have always been a campaigner for tolerance and understanding for those whose sexual behaviour deviates from what the majority of people consider normal, but there is no possible way of condoning the use of young children to pander to warped tastes. Many people are deeply concerned about the increased exploitation of children for use in pornographic films and literature, which has been described as an insidious and revolting trend. There is no doubt that the majority feel strongly on this subject. I have received hundreds of letters from my constituents—more, in fact, than on any other subject for some time past.

In the opinion of some medical practitioners a small amount of sexual attention can make a child a psychiatric cripple for the rest of its life. A doctor in my constituency drew my attention to what an American doctor said, as reported in The Times, which was: They are destroyed by these experiences. They are emotionally and spiritually murdered. I am sure that no caring parents can hear of children being put in danger of growing up with a distorted personality and a twisted view of life. Such parents must be revolted by this.

I feel this Bill will help to protect the innocence of children from greedy porn merchants and protect their parents from the temptation of making money out of 1858 them. It will also avert a direct and immediate danger to all children, because these films and photographs are intended to stimulate adult activities with children and are published specifically for that purpose.

The provisions in the Bill for penalties for the possession or circulation of pornographic films or photographs of children are important. They will ensure that there are no advantages to be gained by those who would rob some unhappy children of their natural modesty and dignity. In this connection it is sometimes the case that the pictures which are shown are not in themselves offensive, but it is the text by which they are surrounded which gives them a depraved and obscene significance.

I hope that when the Bill goes into Committee most serious thought and discussion will result, and that in the end the Home Office will say that it will give full support to the Bill.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

I call Mr. Emlyn Williams—Mr. Hooson.

§ Mr. Emlyn Hooson (Montgomery)

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for that flattering description. I shall try to emulate the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bottomley) and make a very short contribution to the debate.

I want to put on record that my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself in the Liberal Party hope that the Bill gets a Second Reading and goes to Committee. Having said that, let me say that I always have doubts about what I have described as reactive legislation. This history of reactive legislation passing through the House with the subsequent problems of interpretation does not lead many people to have confidence in the kind of legislation that is passed as a result of immense public pressure at a given time. The real test for the House on this Bill is whether it will be effective in achieving the objectives that its sponsors have in mind.

I take a very hard view with regard to pornography, and particularly child pornography. I was involved in a very brutal case some years ago, when I became convinced in the weeks that elapsed during the course of the case 1859 that people who have been involved in pornography as children are more likely to resort eventually to crime, because the gradual threshold of depravity, as it were, comes down steadily. Therefore, I believe that we ought to take a tough view about the involvement of children in pornography. I entirely support the objectives of the Bill.

However, the speech of the hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) was less than fair to the Home Secretary and the Minister of State at the Home Office, because this is a very difficult subject indeed with which to deal. Perhaps I may give the hon. Member an example of that.

When drafting a Bill of this kind it is very difficult to avoid a definition of indecency. Even Lord Reid, when he made a semi-definition, simply said that it included various things. If one includes a definition, one is liable to get into all kinds of difficulties. If one does not have a definition, what is indecency in London may be different from what is indecency in North Wales, and what is indecency in Northern Ireland may differ from what is indecency in Glasgow.

§ Mr. Edward Gardner

Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the word "indecency" has a good tradition behind it in statutory language, that there has been no difficulty in the Victorian statutes in prosecuting indecency, nor in the Customs legislation, and that people all over the country understand very well what is meant by indecency?

§ Mr. Hooson

Broadly, I think that people do understand. But there are difficulties, and I know that the hon. and learned Gentleman is well aware of them. Where there is a difficult sphere of the law, one has to legislate as best one can and leave it to the common sense of judges and juries to interpret thereafter.

Nevertheless, there are difficulties here. I am not at all satisfied that the result of Clause 1, if it is not looked at very carefully, would be to lower protection for children. My view, for what it is worth, is that the best amendment to the law that we could have had would have been an amendment that would have allowed a prosecution under the 1956 Act—that is, by declaring that the taking of a photograph in circumstances of indecency 1860 of a child under the age of 16 amounted to an assault on the child. This would have met the problem. I have not looked into this matter in sufficient depth, but I believe that this is something that should be very carefully considered by the Committee that will inquire into the matter.

I very much appreciate the speech made by the hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison), who put his finger on the problem. What we are concerned to do in this case is simply to protect children. Every other consideration should go out of the window. We shall get into all kinds of difficulties if we regard the Bill as some way of extending the law on obscene publications, and so on. We are here solely concerned to make the Bill effective for the protection of children. If there is a gap in the law, it does not matter how we fi