HC Deb 18 October 1976 vol 917 cc946-1025

Order for Second Reading read.

3.40 p.m.

The Minister of State, Department of Prices and Consumer Protection (Mr. John Fraser)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second Time.

Mr. Speaker

I have selected the amendment in the names of the Leader of the Opposition and her right hon. and hon. Friends to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof: this House, while recognising the necessity of an orderly change over to metrication where this is essential for commercial reasons, declines at a time of continuing high inflation and economic crisis to give a second reading to a Bill for which there has been inadequate preparation on the part of the Government and which takes powers to phase out certain imperial measures beyond the requirements of the European Community Directive No. R/3070/75.

Mr. Fraser

It will probably be for the convenience of the House to try to conclude this debate by 7 o'clock. I shall keep my speech as brief as possible and, with the leave of the House, seek to catch Mr. Speaker's eye at the end of the debate. I start with the non-metric part of the Bill.

Public comment and indeed the Opposition amendment have dwelt almost exclusively on those parts of the Bill which deal with metrication. I propose to restore the balance by saying first about those parts of the Bill which deal with other matters.

I start with Clause 3. This clause empowers the Government to make regulations authorising the use for trade of prescribed weighing or measuring equipment where the stamp indicating that it has been passed for use for trade has been obliterated or defaced. This power is needed primarily to deal with price changes on petrol pumps. At the moment, on some pumps, adjustments of the mechanism as a result of a price change require the defacement of the stamp. At the moment it is technically illegal, although practically necessary, to operate under these circumstances.

The Government propose to make such operations legal in certain conditions and for limited periods of time. This is be- cause with the number of pumps involved it is impossible for inspectors to re-examine and reseal equipment such as petrol pumps instantly after a change in price.

Clauses 4 and 5 have already been the subject of two Private Members' Bills and will, I hope, have the wholehearted support of the House. They confer powers to standardise containers. At present, many important household goods can be sold only in prescribed quantities. For certain products, however, particularly those with varying densities, standardisation by weight is not necessarily the best aid to the consumer. Washing powders are an example. Standardisation by weight would result in a confusing multitude of different pack sizes which would be of little or no help to the consumer, whereas standardisation on the basis of the size of the container would be of real assistance.

In the example I have quoted, the industry has recognised this. On a voluntary basis it has adopted standard pack sizes, and I am sure that consumers have found the standard "E" sizes a real help in making effective value-for-money comparisons. The Government believe, therefore, that the power to standardise containers will be an important addition to consumer protection. In addition, Clauses 4 and 5 contain power to prohibit the false indication of the quantity in containers. For example, an opaque pack only half full could be banned.

Clause 6 fills an important gap in existing legislation. At the moment, local authorities may charge fees for work undertaken by their weights and measures inspectorate in carrying out their national responsibilities, but there are no powers to charge fees for work undertaken in connection with EEC obligations. This work will mainly concern the testing and stamping of measuring equipment constructed in accordance with requirements of EEC directives. Under Clause 6, the Government will therefore be empowered to prescribe fees to be charged by local authorities for all services, facilities and documentation provided by them in pursuance of Community obligations.

Clause 7 merely makes corresponding amendments to the legislation of Northern Ireland.

In Clause 8, the Government propose to take powers to relax or suspend certain statutory provisions during times of shortage. The need for such a power became apparent during the sugar shortage of 1974. During this time, packs of sugar were specially imported to cope with the emergency situation. In many cases the sale of this sugar was technically illegal either because weights and measures law relating to quantities or weight marking was being contravened or because certain labelling requirements of the Food and Drugs Acts were not being complied with. Very large numbers of retailers were therefore technically at risk of prosecution in selling this sugar. Under the clause, the Government would be able to suspend or relax these requirements if a shortage were to arise in the future.

I return to Clauses 1 and 2 and metrication. I do not propose to burden the House with a detailed history of metrication in this country. If I did, I should start with the comments of Sir Christopher Wren and James Watt, and I think that the House should be spared that.

Both Labour and Conservative Governments have accepted time and again that we should adopt the metric system. Progress towards it is well advanced in industry, commerce and agriculture and it is frequently used in retail sales of packed goods. Teaching is overwhelmingly metric, and we have a generation of children and young adults who have learned no other system. Parliament itself has approved many Orders facilitating a change to metric. Even the Opposition recognise the need for change—although, to do them justice, they recognise it a little less in their reasoned amendment than they did when they were last in government.

The issue is no longer whether the change should be made but the pace of that change and how best we can protect and assist the consumer. The question is not what should be done, but how best we do it. The hon. Lady the Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) summed up the matter well in our metrication debate of 1973 when she said that, in the interests of consumers, it was more profitable for the House to discuss how and when.

Metrication began in earnest in this country with the announcement of the then President of the Board of Trade, my right hon. Friend the Member for Batter- sea North (Mr. Jay), in May 1965, when he stated: The Government are impressed with the case which has been put to them by the representatives of industry for the wider use in British industry of the metric system of weights and measures. Countries using that system now take more than one-half of our exports; and the total proportion of world trade conducted in terms of metric units will no doubt continue to increase. Against that background the Government consider it desirable that British industries on a broadening front should adopt metric units, sector by sector, until that system can become in time the primary system of weights and measures for the country as a whole."—[Official Report, 24th May 1976, Vol. 713, c. 32.] A Standing Joint Committee on Metrication was set up in March 1966. Its main recommendations, which were accepted by the Government, were first, that the end of 1975 should be the guideline date for the adoption of the metric system by the country as a whole. No one can accuse us of pushing this too quickly.

Secondly, it recommended that a metrication board should be established as a central planning agency for co-ordinating the programmes of change and thirdly, that there should be the necessary legislation to remove obstacles to the adoption of metric units.

The Metrication Board was set up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) in 1969. The Conservative Government White Paper of February 1972 demonstrates that the views of that Government differed little from their predecessors. At this stage I should like to quote simply one sentence from that White Paper: The move to metrication has been taking place over many years, but the Government believe that the time has now come when they must act to ensure the orderly completion of the process. The tenor of that statement is repeated in the Conservative White Paper time and again.

Successive Governments have quite clearly concluded that the adoption of metric units is in the national interest and have pursued through the Metrication Board and through individual metrication orders a bipartisan and consistent approach to this subject. The principle is not in dispute. Hon. Members may disagree. This is a matter for the judgment of the House, but I am entitled to my view. I have quoted from the Conservative Government's White Paper and Labour Government announcements. It is not so much the principle which is in dispute. There is a justifiable concern about how we achieve it and the pace of the change.

Sir John Langford-Holt (Shrewsbury)

The Minister must not assume that, because he has quoted official statements from one side of the House or the other, this commits members of the party concerned to full support of the principle. Many hon. Members on both sides are very strongly opposed to the principle of metrication.

Mr. Fraser

I recognise that. It is not true that the principle has unanimous approval.

I turn now to the Common Market aspect of this matter. I hope that the short account I have given of the history of metrication will have dispelled one misconception. If not, then I again assert it, Metrication is not being foisted on us because of our membership of the EEC. It is our decision not theirs. Successive Governments had concluded long before our entry that it was in our own national interest to change over. Indeed, decisions of my right hon. Friends the Members for Battersea, North and Bristol, South-East would hardly be alleged to have been in anticipation of entry to EEC. It is true that under the Treaty of Accession the United Kingdom under the Conservatives accepted that the international system of metric units would in due course be the sole system of units throughout the EEC. But, as I pointed out during the debate on the Units of Measurement Directive on 7th July, this undertaking was a consequence of our own agreed national policy and not the cause of our policy.

The amending directive then being discussed has since been adopted and the various changes which I indicated to the House that I considered to be necessary, are all incorporated in the final version. This means briefly that our EEC obligations are, first, to adopt eventually the SI metric system; secondly, to authorise the use of this system; and thirdly, to phase out, or cease to authorise in legal terms, imperial units. The whole aim of our negotiations on this latest directive was to ensure that our EEC commitment reflected our national position and did not dictate it. In this we have succeeded.

While, therefore, I am in no way seeking to disguise the fact that the Bill which we are now considering would give the Government the necessary powers to meet these EEC obligations, I hope I have shown that these obligations are geared to our own national needs and that the EEC dimension is of secondary importance in considering this Bill, which is first and foremost a measure brought forward in the national interest. It is our decision, not theirs.

What galls me about part of the Opposition amendment is the attack on the power to phase out certain imperial measures beyond the requirements of the latest EEC Directive. As the Opposition know full well, the Treaty of Accession obligations which they undertook is to phase out all imperial units. Under their terms they were prepared to see a 1979 deadline imposed. What this Government have succeeded in doing is to ensure that the major say as to the timeing of the phasing out of the most importan imperial units will be under the control of the British Government and our own Parliament, not under the control of the EEC. The Opposition surely cannot advocate seriously that this House should not have the power to control its own destiny in this way and that the timetable should be set by Brussels.

Mr. Nigel Lawson (Blaby)

Will the Minister not accept that he is taking power to phase out the pint and other important imperial units sooner than under the Common Market directive? He does not have the power to phase it out later.

Mr. Fraser

That is a matter for this House. It is not a matter for Brussels.

Mr. Denis Skinner (Bolsover)

Has my hon. Friend considered the mere possibility—and I put it no higher than that—that the Common Market did not impose its directives in the way he has suggested because it knew that as a result of certain diplomatic pressures it could induce a British Government to carry out the measures in the knowledge that they were doing so by themselves. All the time, of course, the people who run the Common Market were happy with the situation because they knew that they would get their own way. Has he ever considered that this is a Common Market tactic which has been deployed ever since we got into this mess?

Mr. Fraser

I have considered it, and the answer is "No".

There are certain agreed requirements about some smaller and less important measures which the latest directive requires us to phase out by the end of 1979. The Opposition amendment clearly recognises these requirements. Perhaps they would explain to the House how this obligation can be met without the powers being sought in the Bill. I must say that I find the proposition that we should be limited by a Brussels timetable incredible.

I return to the situation in our own country. First, virtually all our trade is with countries which already use or are converting to the metric system. Only five small countries in the world are not yet committed to adopting this system.

Mr. Lawson

What about America?

Mr. Fraser

America is committed to adopting it. The President of the United States has signed a Bill which authorises the change to the metric system. Virtually every country in the world is committed to making this change, as is every single Commonwealth country. Therefore, there could be a domestic argument, an EEC argument, a world argument or a Commonwealth argument for metrication, as almost all our trade is conducted in the metric system.

British industry, in order to survive, has been forced widely to adopt metric units and to work to metric standards. Much of this metrication has not directly affected the ordinary consumer—for example the agricultural steel, engineering, construction and shipbuilding industries—unless the consumer in question happens to work in one of those industries. But now increasingly metrication is directly affecting the consumer. His children are taught the metric system and little or nothing about the other system [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish!"] Hon. Members opposite must try to catch Mr. Speaker's eye.

The consumer durables the consumer buys—refrigerators, freezers, washing machines, kitchen equipment—are manufactured and described in metric; the capacity of his car is described in litres without causing great difficulties; the everyday items he buys—paint, cornflakes, sugar, clothing—are probably in metric sizes; the oil for his car or for his home heating is measured in litres; his trunk telephone charge is based on kilometres; the weight of the parcel or letter he posts is measured in grammes. There are many other examples. I repeat that the question is not whether we go metric but how best and how quickly we complete the change and for how long we retain for legal purposes two different systems of measurement.

I must tell the House that the Government have no intention of imposing a short, sharp change to metric. The Bill by itself does nothing to change the system. All that it does is to confer powers to be used later and after consultation.

At the same time I must point out the disadvantages of a dual system. If British industry is required to run separate imperial and metric production lines there must be penalties of duplication of design packaging stockholding and selling.

There are other disadvantages such as the education of our children in one system and their leaving school to cope with another. Another is the confusion to the shopper of a dual range of measures in the shops, sometimes in the same product.

Some purchases can he made only in metric quantities. I gave the example of sugar. On the other hand there are other products which are sold at the moment only in imperial quantities, for example, tea. In between these two extremes there are being sold today on the shelves of the supermarkets and shops throughout the country a vast range of products which may be in either imperial or metric quantities. To take just one familiar example, some shops sell fabrics and carpet in metric units; others in imperial units. The consumer is finding it increasingly difficult to make value-for-money comparisons and this position will get even worse unless the Government do something about it.

This country has a long history of consumer protection in the weights and measures field, and its reputation both for the quality of its weights and measures legislation and for its enforcement is second to none. It is no exaggeration to say that this fabric, so carefully constructed over many many years, could disintegrate if this situation is not brought to an end.

If anyone doubts the confusion I would urge him to visit his local supermarket and to look at the quantities in which goods are being sold today. Let him try to make value-for-money comparisons between, say, two washing up liquids, or even the same washing up liquid in different packs, one of which is sold in a 20 fluid oz—568 ml—container, and the other in a 1 litre container. Another example is that of bottles of fruit squash. Some of them will be of 25 fluid oz and others of 1 litre.

In many cases manufacturers already dual mark and give other useful information, but even where that is done it is impossible to avoid confusion in the mind of the consumer. Consumer protection disappears when the shopper needs either a degree in mathematics or a pocket calculator in order to make value for money comparisons.

It is a small wonder that the consumer organisations have been long pressing for the introduction of the Bill. It is small wonder, too, that the retail organisations, which do not stand to gain a great deal from metrication, have made it clear that the only way to avoid chaos is for the Government to step in and to ensure that the process is properly completed. The Government are persuaded, much against their inclination, that the most sensitive area of all—that directly involving the consumer—is the one area where the voluntary approach to metrication will not work and is not working. In that situation the Government have a clear responsibility to end consumer confusion. The Government can take only one logical direction, and that is toward the phasing out of the use by trade of imperial units.

Mr. Norman Lamont (Kingston upon Thames)

The Minister said earlier that the Government had no intention of imposing a short, sharp change in phasing out these imperial alternatives. If that is the case, is it not so that these dual specified quantities will exist side by side for quite a number of years to come?

Mr. Fraser

Yes.

I turn now to the aims of the Bill. Put at its simplest it proposes to repeal Section 10 (10) of the Weights and Measures Act 1963 which in effect obliges the Government to maintain the use of imperial units. Let me expand on that point. I gave the example of liquid soap being sold in 20 fluid oz. packs and 1 litre packs. If the Government decided to bring forward a prescribed quantities Order for the sale of washing up liquid—

Mr. Skinner

God Almighty!

Mr. Fraser

It is all very well for my hon. Friend to say "God Almighty", but the wives of some working people have to go and buy washing up liquid, and making value-for-money comparisons can be an almost impossible task for them.

Mr. Skinner

I was simply commenting upon the jargon.

Mr. Fraser

I can assure my hon. Friend that I am using the normal terminology.

If one wanted to make a prescribed quantity Order, Section 10 (10) of the 1963 Act requires one imperial and one metric range. In this case, the very confusion which the Order is seeking to avoid gets built into the Order because it is necessary to lay down the dual range.

The Bill proposes that the Government should have more flexible powers than exist at the moment to bring forward proposals to remove or restrict the use of weights and measures for the purposes of trade. These flexible powers are necessary in order to make the sector-by-sector approach to metrication possible, and also to allow the possibility of, say, phasing out the use of imperial units at the manufacturing level in advance of, or instead of, action at the retail level, or deal with one product but not another. While the Bill removes an obstacle to the completion of the metrication process, it does not in itself either advance metrication or make illegal the use of imperial units. The Bill by itself changes nothing. It provides a legal framework within which the Government, in consultation with consumers and other affected interests, can plan a transition. On each and every occasion that that happens the affirmative consent of Parliament to an Order will he required.

I know that hon. Members in every part of the House and interests outside were concerned when the Bill was first introduced that the consumer should be adequately protected, and I am grateful for the helpful, constructive and cooperative spirit in which I have been able to discuss these matters with hon. Members and consumer interests outside the House.

Perhaps I may remind the House of the consequences of discussions. Some people were concerned about the need to consult consumers. They wanted consultation to be the precondition of any Order. This has been done, and Clause 2 has that assurance written in.

I was asked whether the power to require dual marking—that is, to display the equivalent of a metric or imperial quantity on the pack or elsewhere—could be universal. As a result of the consultations, whe have taken the power in Clause 2 to do that. I was asked also to make display mandatory, and I have built that into Clause 2 as well. I was asked to give an assurance that the exercise of the Bill's powers would be linked wherever possible to consumer protection measures. An example of that would be for them to be linked to prescribed quantity Orders. It will be.

In the last Bill, but not in this one, the Opposition asked for a timetable for metrication. If I am genuinely to consult consumers, and if the House is genuinely to have its voice in the matter it would be inconsistent to lay down a rigid timetable. However, I regard pre-packed goods to be early candidates for change with changes in the sale of weighed-out foods to come at the end of the change to the metric process.

Many people were concerned that metrication might lead to unjustifiable price rises. There is a good deal of evidence, for example on conflakes and dried vegetables, to suggest that the contrary is so. But what people believe to be true is sometimes as important as what is true. I therefore give again the assurance that the Government will not hesitate to use their powers under the Prices Act to freeze the price of essential goods during a period of transition if they judge it necessary to do so.

Mr. Stanley Newens (Harlow)

In the process of the decimalisation of the currency there was a considerable amount of rounding up which undoubtedly imposed considerable burdens on consumers by way of price increases. Does my hon. Friend accept that there is still a danger that a similar process will operate when we go over to metric measurement if the Bill is carried through?

Mr. Fraser

My hon. Friend and I have discussed this. I do not believe that there is much evidence to support what he suggests or to indicate that there is quite the danger that he propounds. Nevertheless, I agree that what people believe to be true is also important. Any change in a price involves rounding up or down. I am determined to ensure, however, that before and after the change to metric the powers of price fixing should be used to ensure that the consumer is protected and is seen to be protected. I am determined also to use powers which exist under the Prices Act.

A reference to the Price Commission to monitor prices during a change over has already been made. I further accept the suggestion of the National Consumer Council that there should be a metrication monitoring unit to deal with queries and complaints from customers. I am grateful for the suggestion and advice that I have received from all parts of the House, and I hope that the Bill and the changes made by it, along with the assurances I have given, are acceptable to the House.

Let me turn finally to the Opposition's so-called reasoned amendment, if that be the correct description of it. It begins by recognising the need for an orderly change over. where this is essential for commercial reasons". This is one of the main arguments for the Bill, for without it no such orderly change over is possible. Perhaps the hon. Member for Gloucester will be able to explain to the House how the Opposition can recognise the need and deny the means at the same time.

The second argument is that the House should oppose the Bill because of the economic situation. I have already pointed out that the underlying reason why we are going metric is because of the economic benefits to the country. These economic benefits are quite clearly spelled out in the Conservative Government's White Paper of 1972. That White Paper says: If the UK were to retain the imperial system, while at the same time having to use metric to an increasing extent for international trade, British industry would be less efficient and less competitive and the higher costs would be cumulative. This would have repercussions on the standard of living and we would have burdened ourselves with an economic handicap". The amendment then alleges inadequate preparation on the part of the Government". I will not burden the House with a recital of the list of all those organisations whose views have been taken into account by the Government, nor with details of the extensive discussions which have taken place with the consumer organisations. This Bill is the outcome of 10 years experience and discussion. I just remain baffled by the allegation, unless it is based on a total misunderstanding, of what the Bill does.

I repeat again that the Bill does nothing in itself. It simply provides the powers to plan for an orderly change from one system to another. In other words, the Bill is a precondition for planning—not the other way about.

I have said that we shall consult widely, and that obligation is built into the Bill.

Perhaps I can give the House a further undertaking. The Department of Prices and Consumer Protection will report to Parliament each year on the progress so far made on metrication and give a provisional forecast how progress is seen for the future and how it will be linked with consumer protection, information and education. The forecast would inevitably be a tentative one, but it would set the stage for consultations, not least with consumer organisations, and would provide a background to individual orders for prescribed metric quantities and cut off dates and would help to put each step towards metrication in perspective.

I hope, by proceeding in that way, to demonstrate the link between the powers in the Bill and planning for change. The Bill is not some idiosyncratic whim of the Government. It has the support of every major consumer organisation: the Consumer Association, the National Consumer Council, the National Federation of Consumer Groups and countless other consumer organisations. It has the support of the CBI and, as Patrick Hutber failed to point out in his article yesterday, it also has the support of the TUC. It has the support of practically every organisation which has been concerned with the problem of metrication. I now ask for the support of this House.

4.13 p.m.

Mrs. Sally Oppenheim (Gloucester)

I beg to move to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof: this House, while recognising the necessity of an orderly change over to metrication where this is essential for commercial reasons, declines at a time of continuing high inflation and economic crisis to give a second reading to a Bill for which there has been inadequate preparation on the part of the Government and which takes powers to phase out certain imperial measures beyond the requirements of the European Community Directive No. R/3070/75. With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should point out to the House that the directive number in the amendment has been changed subsequently. The directive referred to is Directive No. 76/770.

Because this is an issue of the greatest importance to the whole country and one on which many people feel very strongly, it is imperative that the House should understand fully the implications of the measure before us, the likely effects, the background and the reasoning behind the Opposition's amendment.

Not least of all, I deal first with the Short Title of the Bill—the Weights and Measures & c. (No. 2) Bill [Lords]—which is probably the understatement of all time. This is the metrication Bill. Despite what the Minister of State said, it is the means whereby metric weights and measures will be made lawful and imperial weights and measures will be made unlawful, and this will apply not only to those goods which are currently sold in prescribed quantities but to additional goods which will be added to the list and go right outside the sphere of consumer goods and other areas.

Rightly or wrongly, successive Governments first initiated and then accepted the general principle of metrication for this country, not because metrication was an improvement, not because it was a sign of progress, but purely in the interests of standardisation. Because there has been a good deal of misrepresentation on the part of the Government and others, let me remind the House of the facts as they are clearly on record.

This country was committed to metrication by a Labour Government in 1965 outside the context of the Common Market and without consultation with Parliament. It was unbelievably announced in a Written Answer by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) on 24th May in his capacity as President of the Board of Trade. In 1968, the commitment was reconfirmed by the present Secretary of State for Energy, who then set up the Metrication Board. Subsequently, a Conservative Government accepted the general principle of the previous Labour Government's commitment to metrication and started to examine ways in which there could be an orderly transition to voluntary metrication and gave the House for the first time an opportunity to debate it in 1970 and 1973.

In the first two instances, the decision was a purely arbitrary one. There was no debate and no vote on the principle. By 1970, when a Conservative Government came to power, matters had moved too far for a vote on the principle to be taken, though my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) renegotiated the commitment of the previous Labour Government and got the period by when we had to be completely metricated extended to the end of 1979 or beyond in certain cases.

To this very day, therefore, the elected representatives of the people in this House have never voted on the principle of metrication. That opportunity should have been provided in 1965 when the commitment was first made or at the very least in 1968 when the Metrication Board was set up.

Mr. Skinner

Will the hon. Lady tell the House whether on this occasion, after all these many years, the Conserva- tive Opposition intend to vote on the general question of principle, because it seems from the Order Paper that the reasoned amendment will allow them once again as an Opposition to opt out of the making of that decision of principle?

Mrs. Oppenheim

As usual, the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is prescient. I was about to come to that very point. The vote tonight cannot be on the principle of metrication, and that must be made clear to those of my hon. Friends who feel the same. That decision has been taken already. Tragically for the House and for the country, we are no longer in a position to vote on the principle of metrication.

Mr. Eric S. Heffer (Liverpool, Walton)

That is a very queer argument. If the hon. Lady and her right hon. and hon. Friends wish to vote against the principle, they can vote against the Second Reading of the Bill. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that they have a reasoned amendment which accepts the principle, though they suggest that possibly it goes to far, when they can vote against the Second Reading of the Bill. Is she saying that the Conservative Party will not vote against the Second Reading but that they intend to vote only on the reasoned amendment?

Mrs. Oppenheim

In the first place, I tried to make it clear that, by 1970, matters had advanced to far to enable a vote on the principle to be taken. Tonight's vote will be against compulsory metrication, and Government supporters will be very welcome to join us in the Division Lobby.

Once again, under a Labour Government, we were presented earlier this year with another fait accompli. They said "Here is our Weights and Measures & c. Bill. Time is running out. We must get on with things. Give us the powers and allow us in our infinite wisdom to impose mandatory metrication as and when we please." This piece of arrogance was followed by their last-minute shamefaced withdrawal of the Bill and its reappearance in another place, this time amended.

The fact that the Government were forced to amend the Bill by the action of the Conservative Opposition has, if anything, improved it, but in the light of the Government's intentions, the economic situation, and the events that preceded it, the Bill is still not acceptable to us.

Given that we can no longer take a decision in the House on the principle of metrication, there are two overriding objectives that need to be met and reconciled as the essential prerequisite in any transition to metrication, whether voluntary or statutory. The first is the need to end uncertainty for business and industrial concerns. The second, and equally important, is the need, as the Minister appreciates, to protect consumers as far as possible from confusion and adverse economic effects. Both are essential and not, I believe, irreconcilable. Neither objective is fully met in the Bill.

The third consideration, to which the Minister referred only briefly, is the cost of conversion at present. In business and industry there has been a background of unresolved chaos for which the present Government and the former Minister of State, Department of Prices and Consumer Protection have been largely responsible.

During the 1973 debate the former Minister of State, no doubt consumed with metrication mania which has characterised him, had an apopletic fit about what he described then as drift and delay, yet when he came to power as Minister of State at the Department for over 28 months he did very little to prepare a comprehensive programme, to put consultations in train, to invite consumer groups to confer with him to see what ways the consumer could be safeguarded. In fact, he became a kind of metrication fugitive. The only time he spoke on the subject was when asked to do so at Question Time; and then replies were mostly on the defensive. He did not deign to initiate consultation with business and industry but merely deigned to receive representations.

By the time he left the Department the situation had degenerated into chaos and havoc. Even his replies to parliamentary Questions were contradictory, conflicting and sometimes incorrect. No wonder business and industry were distraught by the time the first Weights and Measures Bill was introduced. Everybody accepts that business and industry need to know about cut-off dates, and also need to know with certainty what extensions, exemptions and exceptions the Government intend to make. Some industries, particularly the weighing-scale industry, need an even longer period of pre-notification because they have special problems of their own.

I wish to clarify the position of business and industry as I see it. It is not so much the fact that overwhelmingly they all want change to metrication as that, above all, they want to see an end to uncertainty. It is true, as the Minister said, that some Orders have been laid under the existing Weights and Measures Act providing for metric alternatives, but those are purely permissive. Although they carry cut-off dates agreed after statutory consultation, they are not mandatory as long as the imperial alternative remains. I do not think the Minister when moving the Second Reading made that point very clear.

The Government's intentions as to a comprehensive and definitive programme for the transition to metrication had never been enlarged on or debated in the House by the time the first of the Weights and Measures Bill was introduced, nor are they now by any means clearly defined.

I must make it clear that it was not necessary to wait for the statutory consultations under the Act in relation to each order one at a time. The Minister's predecessor could have held less formal but constructive consultations to use as a basis for a phased timetable with details of exceptions, exemptions and consumer safeguards. We could and should have debated these matters before any Bill was introduced into the House. This would have ended the uncertainty for business and industry and would have led to a far more satisfactory outcome for the consumer.

Mr. Ioan Evans (Aberdare)

Has the hon. Lady received a document from the CBI calling for early implementation of the Bill? I draw her attention to one point in that document, in which the CBI says: Little or no further progress can be made without legislation to remove the single most important obstacle to metrication, namely, Section 10(10) of the 1963 Weights and Measures Act. Industry has been urging government for several years to repeal the section in the Weights and Measures (No. 2) Bill. The point is that the CBI is asking the Government to take urgent action.

Mrs. Oppenheim

I am well aware of the contents of that memorandum, although I do not agree with the point made by the CBI and I shall come to that a little later.

As I was saying on the subject of pre-consultation and debate before the Bill was introduced into the House, the inevitable result of past neglect has had to be a last-minute dash to metrication, and its consequences remain unsatisfactory. It is only fair to say that I do not attach any blame to the present Minister, who has done all possible to make up for lost time in negotiations and has conducted a more open and conciliatory consultation than did his predecessor.

For that sector of industry with which the CBI is largely concerned—and here I deal with the point made by the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. Evans)—which does not produce consumer goods for sale in this country, the implications of metrication are few. Many such industries have already gone metric, particularly if they are already exporting to metric countries. The main concern relates to industries producing and selling goods in prescribed quantities in this country and to measurements affecting everything beyond this category. One of the problems often advanced is that as machinery wears out, in particular packaging machinery, such industries do not know whether to replace it with metric or imperial machinery. This is a valid point that can be met by a firm commitment to dates agreed after consultation on a voluntary basis, however far ahead they may be.

However, one of the points that is frequently made by business and industry that I find most interesting and revealing is that they say that as long as metrication remains permissive there will be a reluctance to go metric where there is a competitive advantage in ignoring metrication. That says a great deal and shows how popular metrication is likely to be to the consumer.

This leads me to the second of the objectives to which I referred earlier—namely, the need to protect consumers from confusion and economic disadvan- tage. First and foremost, it must be clearly understood that consumers are having metrication imposed upon them against their will. This was confirmed in a poll conducted for the National Consumers Council and reported in the Daily Telegraph on 18th July this year. It showed that the number of people who thought that metrication was a bad thing for the country had more than doubled since 1973.

One of the main difficulties in consumer reaction after the experience of decimalisation is that, whether rounding up in prices takes place, there will always be a suspicion that this has happened, thus creating an atmosphere of distrust and dissatisfaction which does no service to shopkeepers and consumers.

Most of the consumer groups which favour metrication do so on the grounds that a prolonged transition overall will lead to the existence of goods marked in both imperial and metric quantities together on the shelves. This will create consumer confusion and prevent people from "thinking metric", as they are admonished to do by the Metrication Board. Despite these admonitions, I cannot think metric voluntarily or by dictation. It is not that I cannot do the arithmetical calculations but that it is very difficult for people to envisage in their own minds actual metric quantities, even when they have carried out the arithmetical conversions. Nor do I accept that this Bill, the cut-off dates in existing Orders, or Government intentions in other areas of metrication will or can achieve a quick transition and thus avoid this confusion.

The experience of statutory metrication in Australia proves this view. I have with me a number of clippings of advertisements from an Australian newspaper dated 9th April 1976. Although Australia started to go metric in 1970, in one newspaper on one day in 1976, 20 advertisements refer to imperial quantities and measurements, only two to imperial and metric and only four purely metric. I think that that proves the point that statutory metrication will not lead to dual measurements disappearing from the shelves.

It has been pointed out by the Minister and others that where metrication has already occurred in this country, such as in the case of breakfast cereals, there has been no great trauma. That is perfectly true. However, such items as have gone metric have been items of no great importance in family expenditure or items not usually bought or recognised by weight.

Mr. John Fraser indicated dissent.

Mrs. Oppenheim

With due respect, most people do not normally, and did not previously, buy cereals by weight. Perhaps they should have done, but they did not do so. They have bought them by the size of packet.

There is the exception of sugar. What has been the experience with sugar? When sugar went metric this summer at a price about 22p for a 21b. bag, we were assured that as a 1 kilo bag was approximately 10 per cent. more, the price would rise by no more than 10 per cent. However, in a letter to the Daily Mail of 15 September 1976, a correspondent says, For months, if not years, the Metrification Board have been telling me in adverts that metrification —as the correspondent calls it— would not mean that prices would go up. For the past fortnight my wife, my brothers' wives, my sister and my neighbours' wives have all told me that the price of two pounds of sugar, with three ounces added to make the metric weight, has increased to the price of two and a half pounds of sugar. So will any of the well-paid brains of the Metrication Board now tell them, not me, who nicked the other five ounces of sugar? My own office has telephoned the Metrication Board about this matter but got no further explanation.

There may be a perfectly good explanation for sugar being sold at 27p, but what good will a Government metrication prices monitoring unit be in reassuring consumers when, as the Government freely admit, prices will vary from shop to shop and from one part of the country to another, so that uncertainty and distrust will remain, and no monitoring board in the world will be able to show whether the real cause is rounding up on metric quantities?

The three-month price freeze will have precisely the same effect, for exactly the same reason. The freeze will only delay the confusion and delay price rises. It will not prevent either from happening.

The Government have—very helpfully, I think—put forward proposals for unit pricing and dual marking. There again, confusion cannot be avoided, because whereas the Order in question attempts to establish accepted rounding up or down as to quantity comparisons and to eliminate the objections of Housewife's Trust and others, it covers only a few of the examples given and the all-important 1-oz and 2-oz measures are missing. In two cases of dual transitional quantities there has been rounding down and not up. Also, perhaps above all, because we have a decimal system which includes the halfpenny, exact cost comparisons cannot be made. This is absolutely impossible, even with unit pricing, and, therefore, it undermines the principle of unit pricing in this respect.

The Government's timetable, as it exists so far in permissive Orders—and from what we have heard from the Minister of State—does not take sufficient note of the fact that one of the most important factors affecting poorer families and pensioners is that in almost every case the transition will be to a larger and more costly size. There should be a given period during which an important number of items in the family budget are not subject to metrication.

I turn to exceptions, exemptions and extensions, and how they can be reconciled with careful planning and organisation in the transition. First and foremost, because we are on the brink of another explosion in food prices, and people in this country have already been subjected to an unprecedented period of inflation, we believe that there should be a firm undertaking that metrication of pre-packed basic foodstuffs important in the family budget should be delayed until the latest possible date, that is, until after 1979, when they must be reviewed, but that firm dates must be agreed in each case following consultation and announced on a voluntary basis within six months.

We believe that weighed-out foods—fruit, vegetables, confectionery and meat—should be exempted until after 1980, but that once again a firm date should be negotiated and, following voluntary agreement, announced within six months, and that certain items should not go metric at all in the foreseeable future, such as road signs, land measurement and petrol.

The price of petrol is already very high. Quite apart from the cost to the industry of conversion and the difficulty that the industry is having at present, uncertainty would be ended if the Minister were to announce that petrol would be exempted. There is an added consumer confusion which would be reduced, particularly as cars are often purchased on the basis of "how many miles per gallon" they are advertised to do, and the metric equivalent will be meaningless to many people for years.

The other red herring that is often advanced—not by the Minister of State today, but advanced by his predecessor—was that we have an undertaking not to refuse to allow pre-packed foods in metric quantities to enter this country after 1977, unless there is a derogation. Again, I submit that no such derogation would be necessary. Most of the pre-packed foods imported are luxury goods and if they enter in metric packs it does not matter at all. The two exceptions are tea and butter. Most imported tea is packed in this country, as is the majority of imported butter. As the British butter market is very lucrative for those who export to this country, I cannot imagine that the small minority who export to us in pre-packed quantities would want to do something that would put them at a monetary and competitive disadvantage.

As for road signs, quite apart from the cost, those who find it a little difficult sometimes to keep within existing speed limits could be joined by thousands more who would be even more confused by limits based on kilometres per hour.

Mr. John Page (Harrow, West)

I have been reading the Bill again. Will my hon. Friend say whether the Bill, if passed, will say that the change from miles to kilometres is to be mandatory?

Mrs. Oppenheim

It gives the Government the powers, potentially, to lay Orders that are subject to the affirmative procedure, which would provide a statutory basis for this.

Mr. John Fraser

No. Perhaps I may make this clear. The mile is not used normally in terms of trade, and any changes in speed limits or road signs would, broadly, be outside the ambit of the Bill. Speed limits would have to be subject to separate regulations laid before the House and would not flow from the Bill at all.

Mrs. Oppenheim

When the Minister is winding up the debate, perhaps he will say under which Act the new regulations would be made.

The other and main red herring is the EEC directive. I am very sorry that the hon. Member for Bolsover is not in the Chamber at present. In the draft directive which preceded the directive, and which appears much more sensitive to consumer needs than the Government, it is specifically provided that while certain items, which are not important, to which the Minister has referred, have to go metric by 1979, other items, including all those I have mentioned, which the United Kingdom and Ireland are unable to abolish in the immediate future because of administrative complications (for example, alteration of road signs giving distances in miles or for psychological reasons (use of the pint, etc.) need not be reviewed again at the end of 1979. The draft directive said, In this field efficiency, which dictates that a uniform system should be adopted within the Community as soon as possible, should be coupled with the need not to cause too drastic an upheaval of deep-rooted habits and not to upset the economy of the customs of certain member States. I cannot see why the Government could not take advantage of the provisions in the draft directive, which has now become a directive, in relation to the items I have specified and, at the same time, end uncertainty in the industries concerned, which would then know that metrication of these items could not start before 1980, after which a firm date would have been fixed. I again emphasise that this date should be fixed and announced not later than early next year, following consultation and voluntary agreement.

Of course, there are scores of anecdotes about metric muddles, some amusing and some irritating, but time will not allow me to deal with them at present. I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House will fill that void. However, the metric foot available in "do it yourself" shops, and the continuance of aircraft engine spares in imperial units are but two examples. I also object very much to having my height put in my passport as one and a half metres. I shall remain firmly in my own mind, and on my passport for as long as I am able, as 5 ft. 2 ins.

I turn now to one of the most important aspects of our objections. I refer to the overall cost of conversion, particularly in present economic circumstances. No estimate of the full cost of conversion has ever been given, although a rough estimate could have been collected industry by industry. However much preparatory conversion may have been completed in some industries, the cost will be immense and will nearly all be passed on in price.

There is never a right time for this to happen, but there never could be a worse time than now or over the next couple of years. I will give just one example in one area where we can make an estimate. My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Page) will be interested in this. In an article in the Daily Telegraph on 9th October of this year an estimate was given that the cost of changing one letter—the number "3" —on road signs and relating to one speed only—the 30 miles per hour sign—in one county, was £20 a sign, or about £40,000 per county. On that basis, the cost of altering the signs throughout the country will be astronomical.

Yet we have received no reassurances from the Government that this will be delayed or that it need never take place. On 8th July—this is from Hansard, col. 666—the former Minister of Transport indicated that it was likely that the road signs for speed limits would change with the yard and the foot, so clearly the Government do not intend to exempt them.

Then what, for example, will it cost smaller shopkeepers to convert existing scales or to buy new ones? For many of them the expense will be the last straw. Although the Government have agreed to leave this sector to the last, presumably after 1980, no firm date has been given and the weighing scale industry is in great difficulty until the Government complete their consultations with it and announce the date.

Then there is the question of packaging costs due to conversion. Where new machinery is not already in existence, this will have to be purchased over a period when there is bound to be a substantial increase in packaging costs, anyway.

It is against the background of all these difficulties and others that the Government have moved the Second Reading of a Bill which gives them virtually carte blanche to move to mandatory metrication as and when they want to. It is true that the Orders that will be laid imposing mandatory metrication and which the Government are empowered to lay under the Bill will be subject to the affirmative procedure.

Mr. Graham Page (Crosby)

Both my hon. Friend and the Minister have said that these Orders will be subject to the affirmative procedure. I can find that nowhere in the Bill.

Mrs. Oppenheim

The Minister referred to some of the Orders being subject to the affirmative resolution, as are the prescribed quantity Orders at present. Our experience so far, even with those which are subject to the affirmative resolution, is that we have been given one and a half hours after 10 o'clock at night in which to debate them and no opportunity whatsoever to oppose them. In most cases under the Bill there will be no opportunity, because we are told that the statutory consultations under the existing Weights and Measures Act have been so protracted that any further delay or rejection would result in severe damage to the industry. So there is no doubt that there will be very little or no parliamentary control over the imposition of mandatory metrication.

I would not give this Government a blank cheque on an overdrawn account, let alone on such an important issue. Even hon. Members opposite, who may have more faith in their Government than I have, must be alarmed at the lack of parliamentary accountability and control that will ensue. Of course the Government would like to get the legislation through so that they can proceed with stealth and at night to lay their mandatory metrication Orders at a speed which suits them politically.

It is true that provision has been made, which is welcome, to consult consumer groups before the relevant Orders. There are other minor provisions for consumer protection in the Bill which are in themselves unexceptionable and potentially useful, but the overwhelming impression is that these measures for consumer protection have been thrown in as ballast to divert attention from the main purpose of the Bill.

No one, not even the most fervent advocate of metrication, can say that the change-over can occur without being traumatic. Yet the Government expect us to allow them to proceed with mandatory metrication in this way without either putting it to the country or having proper parliamentary control, and then they expect us not to oppose the Bill in some way.

Of course there are problems for the industries concerned which must be resolved without delay. Of course there are the problems of a whole generation of schoolchildren emerging from schools not unaware of imperial weights and measures but perhaps more familiar with metric weights and measures. Then there are the problems of harmonisation of prescribed quantities as required by the European Community.

I do not underestimate or belittle these problems. It would be unrealistic to do so. However, the problems and the repercussions for consumers will be greater. The cost for business and industry will be very significant. We are living through a period of grave economic crisis that will no doubt be prolonged. Falling living standards, hardship, further inflation, particularly in food prices, are now inescapable. Surely it cannot be right at such a time to proceed to impose widespread metrication upon the country with the burdens and the costs that will be involved, except where this is absolutely necessary and where it has been agreed on a voluntary basis.

Above all, it cannot be right to impose on those who have suffered, and who will continue over the next year to suffer, a great fall in living standards and who do not know how they are to keep their heads above water, the extra burden of coping with the metrication of basic foodstuffs.

Metrication is far more complicated than decimalisation. There are many more variables involved. Even in good times and with the most careful preparation and the best will in the world, confusion and higher prices cannot be avoided. In present circumstances they may well prove to be insupportable. People worry about these things far more than perhaps Ministers or administrators realise. They loom large in the lives of many people and cause them a great deal of anguish, particularly people living alone and the elderly. Already, tragically, we read in the Daily Mail of 8th October of the first suicide over metrication.

This should not be a political issue because, as we have said all along and have made clear, the vote tonight cannot be a vote on the principle of metrication. However, we should be failing in our duty, most of all to the poor, the elderly and the disadvantaged, if we did not say to the Government that the speed and the scale of their metrication programme, as they have so far proposed it, is unacceptable. We should be failing in our duty, further, if we did not point out that the Government have done nothing to meet the justifiable complaints of industry and to seek to remove the uncertainty.

We should also be failing in our duty if we did not say that we do not and never have supported the concept of statutory metrication and that we cannot, even at this late stage, in the present economic circumstances allow the Government, under the unacceptably sweeping powers of the Bill, to proceed on what is still a largely uncharted course, at an unknown cost, at too fast a rate, to impose mandatory metrication on a largely unwilling country.

4.49 p.m.

Mr. Ioan Evans (Aberdare)

When the first Bill came before the House I had strong reservations, which I expressed at the time. A number of my hon. Friends and myself were concerned about some of the implications of the measure.

I greatly deplore the opportunist line which has been taken by the official Opposition. The setting-up of the Metrication Board and a move towards metrication appeared at one time to have all-party support. One realises that there can be certain difficulties with numbers in the Lobbies in the evening. We have heard what the Opposition Front Bench says, but we shall have to wait to see whether Opposition Back Benchers will follow their Front Bench on this issue or will take what seems to be a different line from that taken in the past. It has been said of the Tories that they promise, pause, prepare and postpone— And end up leaving things alone All we have heard from the hon. Lady the Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) is that she believes in metrication.

Mrs. Sally Oppenheim

I do not.

Mr. Evans

The hon. Lady does not? But the Tory Party believes in it, does it not? Does the hon. Lady say that her party is opposed to metrication?

Mrs. Sally Oppenheim

I am sure that the hon. Member does not wish to misrepresent what I said. I said that we no longer had an opportunity to take a decision on the principle of metrication. If we had that opportunity, I should be one of those against it.

Mr. Evans

The hon. Lady did not answer the question I put to her. Is she saying that her party is opposed to metrication? Presumably, the fact that she does not reply means that she herself disapproves of metrication, which is not the position taken by her party.

Sir John Hall (Wycombe)

The hon. Member will recall that many of us on this side, as well as Members on his own side, have from time to time protested that we have never had an opportunity to debate this issue and come to a conclusion on whether we support the principle. I am sure that many hon. Members on both sides would have been opposed to the principle at the time and would certainly have voted against it.

Mr. Evans

All I say about that is that the Tories were in power from 1970 to 1974. If they were for four years denied the opportunity to discuss a major matter of this kind, that is a matter for their own party. The fact is that they took this country into the Common Market, and there are implications in the Treaty of Accession which lead us to move forward to the metric system.

I return now to my own position, since I had strong reservations about the earlier Bill and, with some of my hon. Friends, played a part in postponing it. I consider that the version of the Bill now before the House is an improvement on the earlier version and goes some way to meet the assurances which those of us concerned about this matter wanted. Our concern rested primarily on the question of consumer protection, and we felt that those assurances had to be given.

I asked my right hon. Friend to give us and the House the assurances that were asked for by the National Consumer Council. My hon. Friend the Minister of State, in a Written Answer on 4th August, replied in these terms: First, the Government accept that there is a danger that metrication might be thought to be responsible for higher prices and that it is important that consumer confidence be established in this respect. He said, further, that the Government would be prepared to use their powers under the Prices Acts to freeze prices during changeover periods. The need to use these powers can be examined during the consultation procedure which is specifically required under the…Bill before individual Orders can be brought forward. Thus, on the question of consumer protection, that safeguard has been provided by the Government.

My hon. Friend dealt also with the suggestion that there should be a Metrication Monitoring Unit, saying that the Government accept that it is important that queries and complaints by consumers are properly dealt with and monitored, and, against the background of the need for restraints on public expenditure and manpower, are examining ways and means of doing this. The possible rôle of voluntary consumer groups is also being considered. The hon. Lady said that expense was involved. I thought she was arguing that the Opposition were not opposed to metrication in principle, although they were opposed to it now. But the longer we delay these things the more expensive they will become. Both sides of the House agreed to set up the Metrication Board to introduce metrication. If we do not proceed with introducing metrication, it will cost the country £1 million or thereabouts to maintain the board while it remains in existence. Therefore, that argument put by the hon. Lady falls.

Sir John Hall

The hon. Gentleman will know that time and again we on this side have tried to get from the Government at least an estimate of the cost to the country of introducing metrication. Has he any idea of that cost?

Mr. Evans

I can give no reliable figure. There will certainly be a cost, but inflation has to be taken into account, as well as the way the new system is introduced. I can give the hon. Gentleman the view of the CBI. The CBI argues that the longer we delay the introduction of metrication the more expensive it will be for the country, because if we are to export, the question of imperial or metric weights and measures must be settled, and the sooner the world can reach an international standard of measurement the better it will be. I shall come back to that later.

Another matter which concerned us was the question of the availability of small packs for pensioners. The Government gave an assurance—this also comes from the Written Answer of 4th August—in these terms: Thirdly, whilst metrication in itself cannot solve the problem of increasing the availability of small packs for pensioners, I can give the assurance that all metrication orders have included and will continue to include provisions which make the sale of small packs legal". That was a matter on which we had reservations, and those reservations have been met.

Finally, the Government accepted that metrication will provide an ideal opportunity to extend prescribed quantity legislation to goods and products not at present subject to such legislation."—[Official Report, 4th August 1976; Vol. 916, c. 832.] Those were the main points regarding consumer protection which gave concern to many of us on this side, and they are now met. I remind the House that there was the National Consumer Council, set up by a previous Government but unfortunately abolished by a Conservative Government. That council, under the chairmanship of Dame Elizabeth Ackroyd, said at an earlier stage: The Consumer Council believes that conversion to the metric system will be of advantage to consumers. Further, the Consumers Association wrote to the Government recently to say: We are pleased that you are taking enabling powers in the Weights and Measures Bill, and we hope these will make rapid progress through Parliament. Each month that now goes by without these powers, the greater the possibility of utter confusion as some members of the trade change to metric measure and others do not. Many other organisations have expressed a similar view, and my hon. Friend mentioned some of them. They include the National Federation of Consumer Groups, the Housewives Trust, Age Concern—which looks at these matters primarily from the point of view of elderly people—the National Council of Women of Great Britain and the Consumer Standards Advisory Committee of the British Standards Institution, as well as many local consumer groups. All have said that they support this measure. I am sure that Opposition Members as well as I have received representations recently.

The hon. Lady said that she would refer to the CBI. She did not come round to that, and I am still waiting. I referred to the CBI during her speech and to the fact that the CBI supported this measure. I shall read her speech tomorrow, but. I did not hear her reference, although I was carefully listening for it.

Mr. Norman Lamont

I shall deal with that.

Mr. Evans

I now understand that the hon. Gentleman will refer to it. I have here a letter from the CBI. Perhaps the CBI no longer corresponds with the Opposition, so I had better tell them what the CBI says. [Interruption.] I hear an hon. Member opposite ask whom the CBI represents. My understanding is that the CBI represents a large part of British industry. We know that the TUC has said that, provided there is consumer protection, it will accent the Bill.

Here is what the CBI says: The decision in 1965 to go metric was made in response to the trend in the world at large towards adoption of the metric system. The trend accelerated sharply in the years following our decision; most recently the United States has legislated for the change and is planning to complete it within about seven years from the date of the Act, December 1975. The United Kingdom's decision was not dictated by our membership of the European Community". This might meet some of our reservations. We are anxious not to be pulled along by the Common Market. The CBI says that it would have been necessary to do this even if we had remained outside. That is the argument of the CBI. Whether in or out of the Common Market, we should have had to do something about metrication.

The letter continues: Our trade with the rest of the world demands that we proceed with the change; our competitiveness in all markets, including the home markets, demands that we derive all the potential benefits from the simpler, more efficient metric system. That is from the CBI. It is coming to something when we on the Labour Benches have to quote not only the TUC but the CBI. The hon. Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) smiles—she is even laughing. We have reached a sorry state when the Tory Party appears to be out of step with most of the organisations in Britain.

The Retail Consortium expresses reservations about this proposal. If we are to implement machinery affecting the retail trade, we have to be careful. The Retail Consortium represents the Co-operative Union, the Multiple Shops Federation, the National Chamber of Trade, the Mail Order Traders Association, the Multiple Food and Drink Retailers Association, the Retail Alliance, the Retail Distributors Association and the Scottish Retail Federation.

The consortium states: The Retail Consortium welcomes the Government's commitment to introduce enabling powers for metrication, particularly on behalf of those sectors which have proceeded with metrication on a voluntary basis and which are at this time meeting continuing, not abating, consumer resistance and in some cases suffering a commercial disadvantage. The Consortium also welcomes the Government's intention not to introduce a timetable of statutory cut-off dates but rather to provide for full consultation with the sectors of the trade in order to take account of their particular problems. Special problems face the retail food trade dealing in catch-weight measurements. Thousands of weighing machines and scales would have to be converted at enormous cost to retailers and it is clear that certain sectors of the retail food trade would not metricate without statutory compulsion to do so, and indeed are asking the Government to obtain from the EEC a derogation until 1985 in respect of catch-weight sales.

Mrs. Sally Oppenheim

Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House whether he has similar testimonials from the housewives of this country or, if not from the housewives of the country, from those in his constituency?

Mr. Evans

I do not know whether the hon. Lady is presuming to speak for the housewives of the country. Earlier, I gave a long list of consumer organisations, from the National Consumer Council to the National Council of Women. I do not know whether Conservative women are represented anywhere. How are we to get to know what the housewives are thinking?

Mrs. Sally Oppenheim

The hon. Member should ask his constituents.

Mr. Evans

With the introduction of metrication, we have to be sure that we do not experience difficulties similar to those which arose when decimalisation was introduced. I am sure that the Government will take that into account. I know that Tory Members are elected to accept change. I do not believe in change for its own sake. I believe in changes being made to improve things. The whole world is moving in one direction—towards an international metric system.

We know from our school days that it was difficult to learn the imperial system of weights and measures.

Mr. John Page

Oh!

Mr. Evans

The hon. Member may not have had any difficulty, but would he not admit that the metric system is easier? If he did mathematics at school, he must realise that that is so. Although I shared the reservations of those who were against decimalisation, I now find it easier to think in terms of 100p to the pound than in terms of pounds, shillings and pence.

Mr. John Page

indicated dissent.

Mr. Evans

The hon. Member shakes his head. There shakes the head of a diehard Tory.

Mr. John Page

It is a fact that many people who have to deal with change find it much more difficult to deal with lots of 50p pieces and with figures like 37p and 62p than they did when there were 12 pence to the shilling and 20 shillings to the pound. There is no shadow of doubt that the introduction of decimalisation explains the high sales of pocket calculators. It is also why the Prime Minister this afternoon is calling for better teaching of the three Rs.

Mr. Evans

I do not know whether a pocket calculator has been invented to work in imperial units. If the hon. Member considers inches, feet, yards, furlongs, miles and the other units that we have, I feel sure he will agree that metrication is better.

I want to quote a little from a letter I have received from the National Farmers Union. We tend to take the position of the housewife—the consumers' position—on food matters. Sometimes we are accused of not paying due regard to the farmers. In this letter the National Farmers Union says: The programme for the change to the use of metric units in agriculture and horticulture was to be based on the farming year 1975–76. This decision was taken in 1972 "— mark the year— after extensive consultation between the then Minister of Agriculture, Mr. James Prior— the same right hon. Member who sits in the Shadow Cabinet today— and the three United Kingdom Farmers Unions and the Country Landowners Association. We do not have all that many Socialists in the Country Landowners Association.

The NFU continues: The changeover is now well advanced and arrangements for conversion have already been made by the suppliers of fertilisers, agrochemicals, feedingstuffs, seeds, etc.…It is expected, therefore, that the transition will be largely completed by the end of 1976. There are those of us who had reservations about the first Bill that was introduced. We believe that the Minister and the Department have gone a long way to meet our reservations. At this time of high inflation and economic difficulty, we do not want unduly to burden retail organisations and others. The rest of the world is now going metric. We must think in terms of a tremendous export drive and we must therefore gear our machinery to produce in metric units. I hope that Tory Members will join in supporting the idea of metrication and assist the Bill on its way.

5.9 p.m.

Mr. Graham Page (Crosby)

I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. Evans) wants to hasten the change or whether he takes the view that we must not rush it through. He said both one thing and the other during the course of his speech. Nevertheless, I am sure he would agree, as must be agreed on all sides, that the change from weights and measures in imperial measurements to those in metric will cause a great change in our daily lives, both in our homes and at work. Therefore, on behalf of the public, Parliament should take a very close interest in, and make a very close examination of, any legislation on this subject. We must examine not only the Bill, which is merely an enabling Bill to allow the Executive to put it into practical effect, but also any Executive implementation of the Bill.

I want to call attention to the powers that the Bill seeks to put in the hands of the Secretary of State to bring the metric system into operation without effective reference to Parliament and without any genuine assurance that the exercise of those powers will be debated in Parliament. That is one further step in the process of the erosion of the function of Parliament by the Executive. Many of us were greatly impressed by the Dimbleby Lecture by Lord Hailsham a few days ago, in which the noble Lord pointed out the way in which the powers of Parliament were being overridden by the Executive. Although the Bill is perhaps one small piece of legislation I think it is another example of that.

When one looks back at the 1963 Act one sees that any order to alter lawful measurements under that Act had to be made by means of bringing a draft before this House, and by the Government seeking an affirmative resolution on that draft.

The 1963 Act made that provision about orders concerning transactions in particular goods; about orders relating to statements of quantities of goods, making the quantity known by weighing the goods, and so on. That Act even made an affirmative resolution necessary in the case of fees for testing standards, and equipment.

In the course of his opening speech the Minister said that orders which were to be made by the Secretary of State under the Bill would be subject to affirmative resolution. There are certain matters which will remain subject to affirmative resolution under the 1963 Act, but there are some substantial alterations in that Act which make orders subject only to the negative procedure, that is, subject to annulment by Prayer in this House.

I refer to Clause 1(1) of the Bill, which empowers the Secretary of State to amend, by order, Schedule 1 of the 1963 Act. That is to say, he can remove all the imperial measurements if he chooses. He can state what is lawful and what is not lawful and thereby create an offence for using unlawful measurements. But that order will in future be subject only to the annulment procedure in this House. Schedule 1 of the 1963 Act could not he altered by order, but it can now be altered by an order which would be subject only to annulment.

We all know the great difficulty in getting a Prayer against an order debated in this House. Time and time again when a Prayer goes down on the Order Paper it remains there, and further and further names are added to it, but never is it given time for debate. I say "never"; if one is lucky one may get a debate upstairs instead of on the Floor of this House. We have now reached the stage at which the Executive can persuade a Minister to provide in a Bill that orders can be made by the negative procedure, knowing perfectly well that that is an absolute power to legislate.

Mr. John Fraser

The right hon. Gentleman is making a rather sweeping speech. I ought to explain that Schedule 1 of the 1963 Act will in future only be a matter of record. The two schedules that are added to the Bill preserve a list of weights and measures for use, and these will be subject to all the present protections under the 1963 Act.

Mr. Page

I am not sure whether the Minister is not misleading himself. If he turns to page 2 of the Bill, he will see that a new Part VA is added to Schedule 1. The heading of that Part VA refers to Definitions of units which may not be used for trade". That will be in Schedule 1, which may be altered by order, so that the Minister can add any number by an order subject only to annulment. He can alter by addition as well as by subtraction. I do not think he will ever be advised to use any other form of order. The Minister talked about the prescribed quantities order, but I do not think he will ever need to use that in future. He will merely need to use an order under Clause 1. At any rate, he has got complete power to do that.

Clause 2 adds a Section 9A to the 1963 Act, and that section will not be subject to the affirmative resolution under that Act. It will be subject only to a