HOUSING FINANCE (SPECIAL PROVISIONS) BILL

§ The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Anthony Crosland)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

This Bill is the last chapter in the long-drawn-out story of the Housing Finance Act 1972. I shall hope to convince the House that its provisions are both necessary and just. I shall also show that, contrary to much public comment, this is not a unique solution to a unique problem. Conservative Governments have more than once made comparable decisions. Indeed we face here a problem which has troubled governments throughout history from ancient Athens down to President Ford and the Vietnam deserters today: when is clemency justified and when it is not? I believe in this case that it is, and I shall quote a number of precedents.

Since the Bill stems directly from the Tory Housing Finance Act 1972, I must take the House back briefly to the circumstances under which that Act was passed, for the Bill is designed to clear up the mess, which was then created. It may be hard to recall now just how controversial that Act was. I said on Second Reading, it is the most reactionary and socially divisive Measure that is likely to he introduced in the lifetime of this Parliament—and that is saying a good deal."—[Official Report, 15 the November 1971; Vol. 826, c. 48] It was not only the statutory increases in rents. More basically, it was the blow to democratic local government. For the Bill removed the responsibility for fixing rents for their dwellings from elected local authorities a responsibility which they had exercised for 50 years or more under many different Governments—and gave it to non-elected, non-accountable rent scrutiny boards. And this was done at the same time as the Local Government Bill was being introduced, which purported to implement the Conservative Government's White Paper pledge 36 to return power to those people who should exercise decisions locally". As the House knows, we strongly contested the Bill in all its stages. It was clear that there was a real danger of local authorities refusing to implement some of its provisions. I warned the Government during the Committee stage that, local authority opinion is outraged by the growing threat to local freedom and local independence". I went on to add, There will certainly be some, and there will possibly be many, local authorities which will refuse to implement the Bill…I am talking about law-abiding, peaceable people who are devoted to the service of local government, and to whom it would never ocur to break the law in any normal circumstances."— [Official Report, Standing Committee E 22nd March 1972; c. 4177–8] The Government were unfortunately not persuaded. They wholly failed to grasp the intensity of the anger felt by locally elected authorities at their loss of freedom and independence under this Act.

The situation was greatly exacerbated by the way the Act was brought into force. The council rent provisions came into force during August 1972, a fortnight after Royal Assent, at the height of the holiday season, when many councils —indeed like this House—were in recess. They required councils to pass the necessary resolutions at once in order to serve the statutory notice for rent increases to come into effect at the beginning of October. Hon. Members opposite must know that this was hardly the way to implement a new, complex and highly controversial Act.

There was also the uncertainty caused by the so-called "Newcastle" amendment. This allowed authorities to seek from the Secretary of State a lower rate of mandatory rent increase if they could convince him that the mandatory rate would cause rents to rise above the probable fair rent level. After hours of argument in Standing Committee, the Government had this eleventh hour change of heart, and Section 62(4) was added to the Bill.

Authorities were thrown into further confusion. In the interests of their tenants, many of them sought this dispensation. Week after week went by before they got their concessions, and they then 37 had to decide how to average out the rent increases over all their dwellings.

So, confusion and muddle. Anyone with knowledge of local government must understand the deeply felt resentment, both at the contents of the 1972 Act and at the haste with which it had to be implemented.

The outcome was that some authorities decided that they would not make the mandatory rent increases required of them under the Act. I ask the House to accept that this was not an explosion of some extreme Marxist militancy but the strongly felt reaction of mainly moderate but sorely tried men and women.

During this period, as many Conservative Members will recall, I made my position quite clear. I said that the behaviour of the Tory Government was dangerously provocative, and I recognised the dilemma in which Labour councillors were placed. But at the end of the day, and without making myself universally beloved by Left-wing audiences, I had no doubts: the law of the land must be obeyed.

In Standing Committee I said that it is no part of my duty as a democrat, a Socialist and still less as an elected Member of my party's parliamentary committee, to condone, let alone encourage, defiance of the law." —[Official Report, Standing Committee E. 22nd March 1972, c. 4178.] And to Labour's Special Conference on the Bill, in July, I said I cannot advocate non-implementation. I am in favour of constructive opposition".

§ Mr. Crosland

I have only just started. I shall give way later.

How should the Conservative Government have dealt with this situation? Their own Act gave them ample powers. They had the power to send housing commissioners into any local authority which refused to implement the Act. The commissioners would have taken over all the housing powers of the authority and been responsible for collecting the rent increases laid down by the Act. As some Tory Members know, many late-implementing authorities were in fact expecting the Government to send in housing commissioners. Some of them actually, indeed repeatedly, asked the Government to send them in. Many of them thought—I know 38 this from what they said at the time—that they were acting within the law in refusing to implement themselves, so long as they asked the Government to appoint commissioners. They were wrong; but I can understand their confusion.

In the event, about 35 authorities in England and Wales failed to raise their rents as required by the Act. A number have convinced the district auditor that there were reasonable grounds for their delay: a fact which underlines what I said earlier—that authorities were in genuine difficulties over implementing the Act. But in the remaining cases—a score or so—the district auditor may well find that the rent losses were due to misconduct, and that it is therefore his duty to surcharge the councillors involved. These losses could total about £1½ million; and the councillors concerned number about 400. I can only be tentative on these points, since district auditors, as the House knows, do not make up their minds finally until they have fully heard all the parties involved.

What are the options facing us in this situation? One possibility, which I assume is what most of our critics want, would be to do nothing; and to let the law take its course. What would be the result?

The point of a surcharge is to recover money. It is not—let there be no misunderstanding here—a penalty for a crime, because these are not criminal matters; neither is it a fine. But the amount of the lost rent income is absurdly out of scale with the generally modest means of the councillors who would be surcharged. I understand that in some cases the surcharge divided evenly between councillors could amount to well over £10,000 each. Any surcharges, of course, are made "jointly and severally". That means that if some of the councillors cannot pay their share, the rest have to make up the difference.

Here I might say two things in parenthesis. First, it is interesting that in 1973 the then Conservative Secretary of State for Scotland—Mr. Gordon Campbell, now no longer with us—considered, as under Scottish law he must, whether or not certain Glasgow councillors should be surcharged for expenditure on publicity material opposing the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill. That was the equivalent of the Housing Finance Act in Scotland. He decided, after considering 39 the merits of the case, that although he considered the expenditure to be unlawful there should, nevertheless, be no surcharges. A Conservative Minister then took a sensible decision, so I am hardly setting a completely new precedent this afternoon.

Secondly, the previous Tory Government, as Conservative Members will recall, introduced changes in the law relating to audit under which, in fixing the amount of a surcharge, account may be taken of the means of the person concerned. Indeed, under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, the Secretary of State may himself make such a judgment in precisely the kind of situation in which we now find ourselves. This is not the moment to discuss the many differences between the law in Scotland and the law in England and Wales. But it is clear that the Conservative Party fully accepted in 1973 the futility of heaping enormous surcharge, liabilities on individuals of modest means.

§ Mr. Richard Crawshaw (Liverpool, Toxteth)

Can my right hon. Friend say whether, if these were not Labour councillors, this legislation would be going through today? If the answer is "No", does not that bear out the criticism that is being levelled at us that this measure has been brought in to protect certain individuals within our party? If the answer is "Yes", does not this give carte blanche to any Member on the Conservative benches, or councillors, to refuse to implement any legislation which we shall put through in this Session?

§ Mr. Crosland

If my hon. Friend will bear with me for a little while he will see that my entire speech is directed to attempting to answer that argument, which I shall deal with fully and precisely later, namely, the question of precedent and possible incitement in the future.

To return to the situation in England and Wales, what would follow these surcharges if they were to be made? No doubt many of the councillors would appeal to the courts—first to the High Court, then to the Appeal Court, then perhaps to the House of Lords. The process would drag on and on, possibly for years. Week after week the sores opened by the Housing Finance Act would be publicly exposed, the old dissensions 40 remembered and the damaging wrangling repeated. All these councils would be operating with their minds on the sterile disputes of the past when they ought to be concentrating on the challenge of the future, and, above all, on the overriding task of providing a decent home for everyone.

We cannot say for certain what conclusions the courts would reach. But it is likely that many of the surcharges would be upheld. So what then?

§ Mr. Rost

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the people of Derbyshire why he thinks it is just that those who were not a party to the illegality of Clay Cross should pay a surcharge on their rates? Will he further explain whether he will follow this by introducing legislation which will let off the next group of lawbreakers, those who decide that they will not pay the debts of Clay Cross?

§ Mr. Crosland

The hon. Gentleman may just possibly conceive it likely that I shall be coming to Clay Cross in some detail later in my speech.

To go back to what I was saying, first, the councillors would become disqualified from civic office. Whole councils would be decimated; and some hundreds of by-elections would be fought in an atmosphere of unremitting bitterness—a bitterness which would endure for years ahead. Secondly, we should see the humiliating spectacle of the district auditor trying to collect the money. It is not simply a question of sending out a bill and waiting for the cheque to come in.

Many of these councillors stand to be made bankrupt, to have their life savings taken away and their earnings attached, and to lose their possessions, even their homes. As I have said, most of them are not militant extremists. They are respectable men and women who acted on principled—though mistaken—notions of right and justice. Many of them have given a lifetime of service to local government, often at considerable personal cost and I cannot believe that Conservative Members would really want to collect the full pound of flesh from these people.

In any case, what would be the result? As I have said, the whole aim of the surcharge procedure is to collect the lost money. Even if we went through the 41 process I have described, with bailiffs, bankruptcies, and so on, we should still not make up the lost rent income, or even a tenth of it. A deficit would remain to be met and, as the law stands, it would fall on the rates and hence largely, via the rate support grant, on the taxpayers. That is precisely what I wish to avoid.

§ Mr. Julian Amery (Brighton, Pavilion)

The right hon. Gentleman said that the whole aim of the procedure was to recover the money. However, he has just said that one of the results of proceeding with the letter of the law would be the disqualification of the councillors concerned. Disqualification is not concerned with the recovery of the money. The disqualification is a judgment on the conduct of the councillors as such. Surely there is a difference here with which he should deal. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was intending to come to it.

§ Mr. Crosland

I discussed the effects of the disqualification a minute or two ago when I referred to the effect on the councils concerned with the endless series of by-elections ahead. I said that I thought that that would create an atmosphere of unremitting bitterness which the House would not wish to see occur. The case against letting the law take its course seems to me to be overwhelming.

Another possibility would be to allow the putative surcharges—the amount of rent income lost by late implementation —to become a charge on the central revenue and be met by the national taxpayers. We are wholly opposed to this. It would be quite wrong for the taxpayers to foot this bill, and we are determined that they should not. I shall explain this point in some detail later. It is for these reasons that we have chosen the solution set out in the Bill. I shall be interested to hear the Opposition's alternative.

I have dealt so far with the generality of councils involved in the present situation. I turn now, the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Rost) will be glad to hear, to one particular and difficult case—that of Clay Cross.

This case is different in one essential respect. Unlike all the other councils involved, the Clay Cross councillors have already been surcharged to the tune of £7,000—a surcharge arising from the 42 extraordinary audit of their accounts carried out in November 1972—and they have already been disqualified from office.

On Clay Cross we have taken two decisions. First, we do not intend, despite the resolutions at the Labour Party Conference, retrospectively to annul the £7,000 surcharge, nor to use public funds to discharge the financial liabilities incurred by those councillors. The surcharge was a decision upheld by the courts, and we have no intention of retrospectively upsetting such a decision of the courts. So, contrary to some public comment, but fully in line with the advice given by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, there is no indemnification for this surcharge and no recompense from public funds. The money to meet the surcharge will not be found by the Government, nor by the ratepayers of North-East Derbyshire. It must be found from private sources or the surcharge will stand.

Secondly, the disqualification. My right hon. Friends the Lord President of the Council in October 1973, the Foreign Secretary in January 1974 and the Prime Minister in this House in April 1974 had already committed a Labour Government to shortening the period of disqualification which the councillors have suffered as a result of the surcharge. This Bill carries out that commitment. [Hon. Members: "Why?" That is what I am about to attempt to explain to the House.

This decision has been widely criticised both as retrospective and as an undue interference with the judiciary. But it is not retrospective. By the time that the Bill is passed, the councillors will already have been disqualified for a considerable period, and no one can retrospectively alter that.

As to the rule of law, if we had tried to reverse the High Court judgment and rescind the surcharge, criticism would surely have been valid, though I shall remind the House in a moment that a past Conservative Government did exactly that in 1927 in very similar circumstances.

The surcharge of £7,000 still stands. But we propose to terminate the disqualification when this Bill becomes law, partly because we consider it wrong for the Clay Cross councillors to remain disqualified for failure to implement the Act when other councillors are released by this Bill from the threat of disqualification, and in 43 order finally to get the bitterness and rancour out of this whole situation.

§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

§ Mr. Crosland

No. I propose to finish this passage on Clay Cross and then I shall give way to my hon. Friend.

I would remind the critics of this decision that when the Housing Commissioner was finally sent into Clay Cross, The Times, which has thundered so heavily against our proposals, editorialised as follows: Once the case —that is, Clay Cross— had become an isolated one, it would have been better to stop the arrears mounting up, for they could only add to the drama of the affair…The surcharge is a necessary weapon of last resort, but it is unwise for a Government unnecessarily to give anyone the opportunity of making a martyr of himself. Unfortunately, that is precisely what the Conservative Government did. I would also remind the critics that, if Clay Cross had been in Scotland, these councillors would not have been disqualified, for in Scotland no disqualification attaches to a surcharge, whatever its size.

§ Mr. Skinner

Does my right hon. Friend, as a relatively fervent admirer of the EEC and European rights, understand that the striking out of the Clay Cross appeal in the High Court by Mr. Justice Megarry, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the auditor surcharging these people £6,985 is a violation of Article 21 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? My right hon. Friend said that this could not have applied in Scotland. Does it not strike him that in this European context it could not apply either?

§ Mr. Crosland

I am happy to say that my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has just returned from Strasbourg and he will be better informed on these matters than I can possibly claim to be.

I look on this decision as an act of partial amnesty. I believe that it is now time to close this miserable chapter in the history of our local government and to wipe the slate clean so far as the defaulting authorities are concerned. This, as I have made clear, does not mean wiping out the lost rent income at 44 the taxpayers' expense. Rather it means giving the local authorities a second chance to recover the rent income lost by their default. I believe that any responsible Government, of whatever persuasion, would have come to the same broad conclusion.

There are worries—I profoundly respect them, and here I answer my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Toxteth (Mr. Crawshaw)—about whether we are setting a dangerous precedent which might encourage others to break the law in future. The question is this: is this one of those exceptional cases where to apply the full rigour of the law would be neither just, compassionate nor sensible?

I am not making a party political point here, but I note that historically, contrary to what the Leader of the Opposition said in her outburst last Friday, the Conservative Party has more than once followed this principle. I quote three examples. First, the events—not dissimilar—leading up to the Audit (Local Authorities) Act 1927. Surcharges far beyond the means of the councillors involved had been made by the district auditor at the London boroughs of Poplar, Bethnal Green and Woolwich. This was part of the continuing story of what came to be known as "Poplarism". Faced with the probable imprisonment of 97 councillors and the wholesale annihilation of these three councils because of the bankruptcy of their members, Mr. Neville Chamberlain, then Minister of Health, could as little stand idly by as I can today. The 1927 Act therefore contained what he himself referred to as an "indemnity clause" which he introduced in these words: I might have left them"— these 97 councillors— to their fate. I have not taken that view…one might fairly take the opportunity of wiping the slate clean as far as the past is concerned. and giving the benefit of the doubt to those particular cases."—[Official Report, 15th June, 1927; Vol. 207, c. 1033.] So Mr. Neville Chamberlain removed the surcharge—incidentally, first imposed during a previous Parliament—and the threat of imprisonment, referring specifically to the need to exercise clemency in such a situation.

Secondly, the wartime Government of Sir Winston Churchill, no enemy of the rule of law—

§ Mr. G. R. Strauss (Vauxhall)

Before my right hon. Friend leaves that important matter, I should like to point out that Mr. Chamberlain said that he removed the surcharge on the Poplar councillors because there was a reasonable element of doubt which could have been in the minds of the councillors because the Court of Appeal had overthrown the district auditor's view and sided with the councillors. As there could be a reasonable doubt among the councillors, he said that he was prepared to remove the surcharge on them.

§ Mr. Crosland

With great respect, my right hon. Friend is not factually correct. After the case had gone to the Court of Appeal, it went to the House of Lords, a higher court, which sided with the district auditor and decided that the surcharge was correct. Therefore, Mr. Chamberlain changed the law in such a way as to overthrow a decision of the House of Lords.

§ Mr. Crosland

I shall not give way any more. Secondly—

§ Mr. Crosland

I propose to complete the precedents and then if the hon. Gentleman wishes me to do so I shall give way.

Secondly, there is the example of the wartime Government of Sir Winston Churchill—by no means an enemy of the rule of law—and the Betteshanger miners in 1941. Again, adherence to the letter of the law would have led to an impossible situation. Four thousand miners were on strike in Kent, and under the National Arbitration Order the strike was illegal. Prosecution of 4,000 men was in practice impossible. The local gaol could accommodate only a few at a time, and it would have taken years to work through the list. So a compromise was reached, the production of coal resumed, and the case was quietly forgotten.

I say nothing of the case, of which no doubt we shall hear from the lawyers on the benches opposite, of the five dockers and their mysterious rescue by the Official Solicitor. When the Leader of the Opposition last Friday described the Clay Cross affair as being 46 like something by Conan Doyle or Agatha Christie", I thought how much more aptly that description would apply to the bizarre actions of the Official Solicitor.

I take as my third example the action in 1971 of the Conservative Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. and learned Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Thomas), who, using his powers under Section 228 of the Local Government Act 1933, retrospectively sanctioned the illegal expenditure on school milk of Merthyr Tydfil County Borough.

In each of these cases a sense of proportion and fair treatment prevailed. In each of them a way forward had to be found which least damaged the national interest and the rule of law. In each case a way was found.

§ Mr. Crosland

I said that I would give way. I propose to finish this sentence about the precedents and I will then do so.

In each case a way was found, and in each case I find it impossible to believe that the rule of law was in any way undermined as a consequence.

§ Mr. Peter Thomas

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that there was provision by statute for the Minister to take a certain course, and for the course which I took, in respect of school milk. However, there is no such provision by statute in respect of a deficiency found under the Housing Finance Act. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with regard to the examples which he has given that in 1927, in particular, if one incurred a civil debt one was liable to imprisonment if it was not paid? That is very different from what we are considering today. When the penalty for a councillor for failing to obey the law can be disqualification, why is that penalty to be removed by this Bill?

§ Mr. Crosland

In 1927 Mr. Neville Chamberlain introduced a Bill to alter the law with the purpose of removing a surcharge which had been correctly imposed on a large number of councillors. That fact cannot be evaded.

§ Mr. Peter Thomas

Is it not a fact that a court of law at that time was in 47 doubt about whether there was validity in the surcharge, whereas the Court of Appeal has made it perfectly clear that the Clay Cross councillors were deliberately acting contrary to the law with the full knowledge of the effect of what they were doing, and also the Court of Appeal made it clear that they were unfitted to be councillors?

§ Mr. Crosland

I am sorry to have to correct the right hon. and learned Gentleman again. The case in 1927 went to the House of Lords, which upheld the view that the surcharge was fully in accordance with the law, and, in consequence, Mr. Chamberlain proposed a change in the law. That fact cannot be escaped.

§ Mr. Brittan

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that it is not possible to say that there was no doubt merely because the House of Lords overruled the Court of Appeal. The fact that two authoritative tribunals came to differing conclusions shows conclusively how much doubt there was in the case.

§ Mr. Crosland

It is not for me to make a judgment on the standing and legal status of the House of Lords. However, if it is a question of doubt, there was a great deal of doubt about whether the previous Government could not have avoided the situation by sending in housing commissioners at once.

§ Mr. Michael Stewart (Fulham)

May I offer my right hon. Friend an addition to his anthology of precedents? Does he recollect that in 1923 the Conservative Home Secretary was guilty of a gross illegality, causing serious injury to many people, rendering him liable to pay very heavy damages and liable to the penalties of the Statute of Praemunire, which, though nobody knows what they are, are generally believed to be very serious, and that he was saved by an indemnity measure introduced by the Conservative Government, who did not turn a hair, as though it were the most natural thing in the world?

§ Mr. Crosland

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend, who has underlined the serious point that I am making, that questions of clemency, partial amnesty and indemnity are not unique to this Bill but have troubled many successive Governments in many different circumstances.

48 I turn to the Bill itself. It is based on two principles. First, the lost rent income must be made good. But the burden of making it good must not fall on the national taxpayer. The loss was incurred locally; it must be made good locally.

Secondly, the responsibility for finding the money must be placed fairly and squarely on the local councils in the areas concerned. They are the responsible bodies, and, as I have said, they will be given a second chance. Where local government reorganisation has altered the area covered by a council, the successor council must take on the job of collecting the lost money.

I remind the House that, although the councillors concerned will not have to bear a personal penalty for their misdemeanours, they will—many of them—bear a considerable political penalty. They will still have to raise the money which they have lost, either by charging higher rents or by increasing rates. In doing so, they will no doubt incur considerable local odium. That is inescapable. They must meet the electoral consequences of their original decisions.

Under Clause 1 the district auditors will continue their investigations right up to the point where they reach the decision as to whether the 1933 Act requires them to make a disallowance or surcharge for a matter relating to the Housing Finance Act 1972. This incidentally is very close to what The Tunes called for in a leading article today. At this point, instead of surcharging, the district auditor will issue a certificate in respect of lost rent, stating the amount and the persons he would otherwise have surcharged. This certificate will be subject to the same appeals procedure as a normal surcharge, and will not become effective until such a procedure is complete. As the House will see, we have sought to disturb as little as possible the normal audit and appeals procedures under the 1933 Act. Subsections 3 and 5 of Clause 1 provide transitional provisions for those cases where the district auditor might feel compelled to make a surcharge before the passing of the Bill.

Our aim is to recoup the loss, and Clause 2 outlines the method by which councils are to do this. The defaulting authority or successor authority, as the case may be, will recover the amount certified by the district auditor as lost rent 49 by rent increases, either over the area of the defaulting authority or over the whole area. This recovery is normally to be completed within five financial years. These rent increases in almost all cases need be no more than a few pence a week. But we insist that the whole amount must be recovered, and so only where the Secretary of State is satisfied that only a negligible amount remains is he authorised to write it off.

We wish to give as much choice as possible to the councils concerned. Accordingly, in Clause 3 we widen their choice by giving them the option of charging the certified loss to their general rate fund, again over a period of five years, and again with the choice of making the charge over their whole area or only over the area of the defaulting authority. But, while providing this option, we want to ensure that any decision to charge the loss on the rates is exercised only after proper opportunity for public discussion of its implications.

Clause 4 terminates the disqualification incurred by those councillors who have already been surcharged and disqualified as a result of opposing the Housing Finance Act. I have already dealt with our reasons for including this provision.

§ Mr. Emlyn Hooson (Montgomery)

The right hon. Gentleman has devoted almost all his speech so far to justifying the non-charging of the potential surcharge. He has devoted very little to justifying the removal of the disqualification. This is what disturbs most people. He has just said that he has already dealt with this matter, but all he said was that other councillors who might be subject to disqualification will not be subject to it if the Bill is passed. It is treating the House inadequately to try to gloss over this point, which is the main one for most people.

§ Mr. Crosland

; I am sorry, if I have not satisfied the hon. and learned Gentleman on this point, but it is a point which I met head on and made no attempt to gloss over. It was during that section of my speech when I was most consistently —and reasonably; I make no complaint —interrupted.

The remaining clauses are supplementary. They deal mainly with the accounting arrangements. They ensure that no expenses or losses arising from failure to 50 implement the Housing Finance Act will fall on the Exchequer by way of housing subsidy or rate support grant; and similarly that where a council decides to charge rent losses on the rates the relevant amount is excluded from rate support grant. So under no circumstances will the taxpayer contribute anything.

I think that I have not in my political life faced a problem as difficult as this one. I shall be extremely interested to hear what course the Opposition would have pursued in these circumstances. My colleagues and I cannot fall back on the glib certainties of the leader writers; we have had to face the dilemma in practice as to what should be done. I do not present our conclusions to the House in any spirit of dogmatic certainty that we have got them exactly right, still less in a spirit of triumph. Others in the House will advocate different approaches. Some believe we have gone too far; others that we have not gone far enough. They are both entitled to their views, which they hold in good faith. But the House will also accept that we advance our solution in good faith.

We must of course have justice, but justice should always be tempered with mercy. This Bill has to be seen not as an encouragement to law-breaking, but as an act of clemency on the part of Parliament. The rule of law is a vital value of our society; yet, at the same time, we recognise, as Conservative Governments have in the past, that laws ate sometimes imperfect servants of government, and unwise laws can get us into a horrible and unintended mess. In this case we are expressing the view, rightly or wrongly, that one set of social values —clemency, and a willingness to forgive and forget—should have temporary predominance over another social value—the rule of law. We are recognising that in certain situations it is healthier for society to forgive than to risk a Continuance of resentment and conflict.

The Bill is not a concession to pressure.[HON. MEMBERS "Oh] It reflects, as did the decisions which I have quoted of Chamberlain and Churchill and of two recent Conservative Secretaries of State, our belief that in this situation an act of magnanimity will best serve society's interest. These problems have always confronted democratic governments and I 51 do not pretend that the answers are always simple, about when to exercise clemency and when not. In this case, justice and the rule of law permit the solution which I have put before the House. I commend the Bill to the House.

§ Mr. Timothy Raison (Aylesbury)

I find it difficult to say whether the Bill represents the most shameful or shameless action of the present Government. I would have been tempted, if I had taken the words of the Secretary of State at their face value, to say that they represent shamelessness, but I think that the House recognises that beneath his attempt to brazen this out there was some shame in the right hon. Gentleman—and so there should be.

The arguments that the Secretary of State has put before the House are to a great extent an insult to this body. He himself must have been embarrassed by the pathetic nature of some of his points. His arguments about Neville Chamberlain and Poplar were fully defeated by his own right hon. Friend, the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss). His arguments about Betteshanger were utterly irrelevant, as were his arguments about the five dockers. They had absolutely no bearing on this case. His arguments about the affair of school milk in Wales were completely demolished by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Thomas).

If the Secretary of State has cause to be ashamed today, the Attorney-General has far greater cause. I do not propose to pursue the question of the Attorney-General, as my right hon. and learned Griend the Member for Wimbledon (Sir M. Havers) will do so later today.

The Bill is an affront to the notions that we have always upheld about the rule of law and parliamentary government. The Secretary of State started his arguments by claiming that the Housing Finance Act and the procedures attached to it deserve in effect to be defied. What he said about that Act is utterly unacceptable. Having sat on the Standing Committee which considered it, I recognice that it was contentious, but the picture of it which has been painted bears no resemblance to the truth. That Act provides no justification for this Bill.

52 I acknowledge, of course, that, as the right hon. Gentleman has always said, the relationship between Government and governed is of great importance in democracy—we all know that—but to say that the Housing Finance Act breached that relationship is partisan claptrap. The fair rents system that it embodied was a Labour invention. Much of the Act remains on the statute book.

We used to hear thunderous objections to local authorities acting as tax collectors, yet the Government have now brought in the Community Land Bill which provides for exactly the same thing. Both the Secretary of State and the Minister for Housing and Construction have said that they will use the centre Government in the same sort of way as the Housing Finance Act did. In his book "Socialism Now" the Secretary of State said: We must formulate comparable default powers to deal with councils which refuse to build. The Minister for Housing and Construction said in Committee on the Housing Finance Bill: We shall not demur next time when we are in power from taking such power as the Conservative Government have taken on rent issues for house building programmes if necessary."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E; 23rd March 1972, c. 4316.] So the present administration have taken exactly the same kind of powers as were taken in the Housing Finance Act. To say that that Act was a travesty of the relationship between Government and governed is absolute nonsense. Let us hear no more of the argument that the Housing Finance Act remotely justified the sort of resistance to it which took place.

I want to consider the three purposes of the Bill as they are set out in the first paragraph of the Explanatory Memorandum, and explain our view on each of these. The first of these was to prevent surcharges under the Local Government Act 1933 arising out of a failure to implement the Housing Finance Act 1972. I say straight away that we on this side of the House have absolutely no desire to be vindictive about this matter. I want to add firmly that my right hon. Friends who were then in office showed absolutely clearly that they had no desire to harry tenants and local authorities. 53 They showed that they were prepared to be reasonable to a degree. There is absolutely no question about that.

The truth is that this Bill represents a shameless condoning of defiance of the law. One of the difficulties that we have to face in considering the Bill is that to some extent the degree of failure to implement the law is not really clear. The Secretary of State said today, what he did in answer to a Question on 17th March. There may be about 20 authorities in England and Wales where these issues arise. The number of members concerned may he around 400 and the shortfall of income a bout £1½ million."—[Official Report 17th March 1975; Vol. 888, c. 297.] A large part of our case today is that it would have been far better to have waited until we knew the facts before coming to the kind of decision which the Government have taken.

I repeat that we have no desire to be vindictive, but the Secretary of State should have been in a position to come to the House with the full facts and to place them before us before any kind of decision was taken. I fully agree with what the The Timessaid this morning on this matter. In its leader today it said: In the first place Parliament should not be asked to decide whether to intercept the financial penalties before it has seen exactly what those penalties come to. It follows that the procedure of audit and surcharge should be allowed to run its full course. And the Bill should provide that at that point the Minister may submit for the approval of Parliament an amendable Order for the remission of all or parts of the surcharges imposed. I could argue about the last sentence, but I entirely accept the first sentence. It is completely wrong that we should be asked to vote on something before we know what the truth is. If the argument is put forward that the procedure of surcharge involves a lot of apparatus, my reply is that the procedure of rent loss certification also includes a certain amount of apparatus. The Bill says that the auditor has to find out the amount of lost rent and say who has been surcharged.

§ Mr. Skinner

The hon. Gentleman seems to he laying great stress on the suggestion that we should delay the introduction of this Bill until such time as all the facts are known. Will he agree that on that basis it was very ill-advised of the district auditor, Charles Lacey, to move in 54 to Clay Cross and decide that a surcharge of £6,985 should be imposed on the basis of an arithmetical calculation or an approximate estimate of £1,000 in respect of rent rebate purposes? Surely if the hon. Gentleman thinks that it is a sound argument to wait until all the facts are known, the district auditor should never have gone to Clay Cross until he had a properly calculated amount of money in his mind in respect of rent rebates, which he never had at any time?

§ Mr. Raison

The hon. Gentleman's arguments are absurd. The district auditor had no alternative but to examine these accounts. His position is entirely different from that of the Secretary of State.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas)

Mr. Swain. [Interruption.]

§ Mr. Thomas Swain (Derbyshire, North-East)

I am glad that the hon. Lady the Member for Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett-Bowman) has wakened up. She has made a groan at last.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the district auditor was sent in on the instructions of the Minister, under Section 237 of the Local Government Act, and was ordered to conduct an extraordinary audit? It was conducted not on a voluntary basis by the district auditor but under specific instructions, as a political exercise, from the Minister.

§ Mr. Raison

I am fully aware that the Minister asked the district auditor to go in. We have already heard from the Secretary of State the argument that there was undue delay in some respects. It seemed to me that it was entirely proper for the Minister to send in the district auditor, because there was very good reason for getting the matter cleared up quickly. The only regret is that the foolish councillors of Clay Cross did not behave as they should have done. As the Bill stands, it represents a blanket absolution for the offending councillors, regardless of the extent of their actions.

One thing is absolutely clear, in spite of what the Secretary of State said. There was absolutely no reason for uncertainty as to what the law required. My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon), whose performance as Under-Secretary when the Bill was considered in Committee was brilliant, made 55 that point absolutely clear. In the course of those proceedings he said: …the existence of default powers does not give a local authority the right to default on its statutory duties…default on a statutory duty is a breach of the law."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 23rd March 1972; c. 4256–7.] That point was made with absolute clarity by Ministers. It was known full well to every councillor in the land, and there was no reason to argue that this was not known to everybody. To introduce the notion, as the Secretary of State did, that there was a kind of muddle about all this was a travesty. These statements by my hon. Friend were made months before the Act came into effect, and they were well and truly understood.

It is not enough to say that a local authority should hand over to a housing commissioner and be absolved of its responsibility. The Act was clear on that, and so were Ministers. There was a deliberate campaign by some hon. Members opposite to provoke defiance of the law. We know that some local authorities did not operate the law for a brief period, and then accepted the position. But, equally, we know that other local authorities, notably Clay Cross of course, persisted in defiance of the law. It is absolutely outrageous that the Bill should in this way remove any surcharge imposed upon those who deliberately and persistently flouted the law.

§ Mr. David Weitzman (Hackney, North and Stoke Newington)

Will the hon. Gentleman agree that under Section 62(4) of the Housing Finance Act it is open to a local authority to apply to the Secretary of State for the amount of rent increase to be reduced? Although an application was made to that effect, the Secretary of State either refused to meet the applicants or refused to reply to the application, and the result was that at the time when notice had to go out no reply had been received from the Secretary of State. The result was—hon. Members will find all this set out in a recent edition of the Economist—that when the local authority did not implement the Act, this was because it was in a position of doubt, not having received any reply whatever from the Secretary of State.

§ Mr. Raison

The hon. and learned Gentleman is entirely wrong. The law 56 is completely clear on this subject. The effect of removal of the surcharge has two effects—a financial one and disqualification. It has been argued that the financial penalties should be lifted on councillors, first, because they may not be able to pay and the charge will fall on the ratepayers, and, secondly, because the penalties are too harsh. My answer is that we should have the facts before this kind of question is decided. That is the answer to the Secretary of State's question "When is clemency justified?" Are the facts known? Even if the financial burdens were to be rescinded, there is no reason why blanket relief from the possibility of disqualification should be permitted in the way proposed by the Bill.

I come to the second purpose of the Bill: to substitute other means of recovering losses due to such failure to implement the Act without charge upon Exchequer funds•• So far as the Clay Cross example is concerned, there are four possible ways in which this can be done. First, it is possible to increase council rents in Clay Cross. Second, it is possible to increase council rents in the whole new district. Third, the charge can fall on the ratepayers in the old Clay Cross area. Fourth, the charge can fall on the ratepayers in the whole new district.

It seems to me that in equity the only proper thing is that the burden should fall on the old Clay Cross district. We understand that the figure is about £120,000. It is, perhaps, arguable that all the long-suffering ratepayers should bear the burden on the ground that they elected the offending councillors. But what is clearly and overwhelmingly wrong is that the ratepayers or council tenants of North-East Derbyshire as a whole should have to bear this burden.

The Government must know by now that there is extreme anger in North-East Derbyshire at the provisions of the Bill. I have no doubt that my hon. Friends, and, indeed, hon. Members opposite if they are honest, will tell the Secretary of State very forcibly how utterly unacceptable and unfair this provision is. The truth is that to see law-breakers exonerated in this way has aroused disgust and anger, which the Secretary of State must understand.

57 The Secretary of State himself said in the House on 6th November that the deficit will be found from the communities that benefited by late implementation."— [Official Report, 6th November 1974; Vol. 880, c. 1085.] That, presumably, applies to non-implementation. In no sense did the rest of North-East Derbyshire benefit from the actions of the Clay Cross councillors. I cannot see how that particular possibility under the Bill can square with the Secretary of State's comment on that date.

Clearly, Clauses 2 and 3 are very wrong, but it is Clause 4 which is the great disgrace, the clause which ends the disqualification of those who have been surcharged to an amount exceeding £500. It is on this clause that we who believe in the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law must vote to deny a Second Reading to the Bill tonight.

The point was well made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Toxteth (Mr. Crawshaw) when he intervened this afternoon, and he has made the point previously. In the Liverpool Daily Postof 5th November last, the hon. Gentleman is quoted as saying: Those who seek to exempt them from liability by retrospective legislation ought to ask themselves if they have fully understood the implications of such action. The slipping slope towards Communism or Fascism has been reached when the Government starts to interfere with the courts or seeks to bend the law because they wish, to assist some of their friends. The point has also been made equally effectively it seems, by the Attorney-General, but, as I have said, I shall not comment on that at present.

Quite simply, the Government we proposing the end of the five-year period of disqualification for the Clay Cross councillors after only one and a half years and to lift the possibility of disqualification for other councillors; including, it seems, again those of Clay Cross, whose offences we do not know exactly but might he substantial. This sets a hideous precedent. Like everything else in the Bill, it is wholly unfair to those people who did obey the law. One of the ingredients in the Bill which has made it most offensive to the country as a whole is the fact that the law-abiding should have been kicked in the face in the way that they have by the Secretary of State.

58 The Secretary of State has from time to time uttered high-minded noises about being a Social Democrat and believing in the rule of law, but when it came to the point he quite simply crumbled. As the Local Government Chroniclesaid, the day the Bill was introduced was a black day for all who believe in the rule of law. It continued: Whether that Act was good or had"— the Housing Finance Act— is irrelevant. It is no good Anthony Crosland arguing otherwise. What matters is that it was the law of the land and should have been observed. Any who chose not to do so should expect to face the full consequences. But what has happened? The Clay Cross rebels have not paid a penny of the surcharge imposed upon them. Now they never will. They were disqualified from office. But now that is to be lifted. The men whom the Master of the Rolls described as unfit to hold public office', and whom the District Auditor accused of overspending and mismanagement, are to be welcomed hack into public life.

§ Mr. Swain

is the hon. Gentleman aware that it was the law of the land also that the Minister should appoint a housing commissioner after making an order of default against a local authority?

§ Mr. Raison

It was only the law of the land that the Minister could appoint a housing commissioner if the local authority went into default. As I have pointed out earlier, that is what happened, and, as I have said, by going into default the councillors broke the law of the land. The commissioner has nothing to do with it.

§ Mr. Crosland

I do not object to any of the hon. Gentleman's personal remarks, but he has made two errors of fact which should be pointed out. The first was in repeating an error of fact in the Local Government Chronicaleditorial which implies that the Government have removed the £7,000 surcharge, which is not so. The second error was by saying that the Government have overturned a decision of the courts, which is completely incorrect.

§ Mr. Raison

The Government are proposing to remove the surcharge which has fallen after the initial £7,000 surcharge was imposed, and this is a very substantial sum of money indeed. All 59 the actions of the Government are in defiance of the court.

§ Mr. Crosland

The hon. Gentleman cannot get away with this. No decision of the courts has been overturned. There is no—[Interruption.]—decision of the courts about this further money that might or might not be surcharged. The hon. Gentleman has no right to tell lies like that.

§ Mr. Raison

I shall come to the comments of the Master of the Rolls.

§ Mr. F. A. Burden (Gillingham)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it right for the Secretary of State to declare that my hon. Friend told a lie[HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."]—told lies? The Secretary of State's words were that my hon. Friend lied.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I did not hear the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State—

§ Mr. Burden

Oh, yes.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. However, no doubt if the right hon. Gentleman said it he will say so and then withdraw it.

§ Mr. Crosland

I did say it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, out of a strong resentment of being accused of overturning a decision of the courts, which we have not done. However, if objection is taken to the word, I withdraw it and substitute any synonym which hon. Members may care for.

§ Mr. Raison

Let me quote what the Law Society Gazette had to say There is no doubt that this Bill is a dangerous precedent. The rule of law is everywhere under attack, and Parliament, when it condones breaking the law, brings itself into disrepute: And measures such as this can only increase defiance of the law and even make that defiance respectable. That is the essence of the charge. Not the least sorry feature of all this has been the way in which the Secretary of State has tried to fog the issue. In his statement on 6th November he made great play of the fact that the £7,000 surcharge on the Clay Cross councillors was to stand, but tried to duck the remaining £120,000 until my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) brought it up. The Secretary of State also adopted the 60 line that the Attorney-General, in his famous advice, was advising not on the subject of disqualification but on financial penalties and a surcharge. But except for the £7,000 the financial penalties are to be lifted from the councillors. The Opposition will return to that matter.

The question is: why did the Secretary of State crumble so pathetically? The answer, presumably, is that he had not got the guts to stand up to the Labour Party conference, except half-heartedly, over the initial surcharge. In 1973 a resolution was passed overwhelmingly at the Labour Party conference. It said: Conference further agrees that upon the election of a Labour Government all penalties, financial or otherwise, should be removed retrospectively from councillors who have courageously refused to implement the Housing Finance Act 1972. That resolution was commended by the present Leader of the House, in words which condemn him for ever. The Leader of the House said: Clay Cross is something rather special. It really is. I think everybody in Britain, in the Labour movement and outside, were full of admiration and sympathy for the stand Mr. David Skinner and his colleagues had taken. That is a wholly incredible remark. I expect that there are two hon. Members on the Government side of the House who can subscribe to it, but I cannot believe that any other person in the House can accept the notion that Clay Cross is something really rather special. The truth is that the Leader of the House is something really rather special.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. If the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) is not giving way the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) must resume his seat.

§ Mr. Raison

I should be very surprised if the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) does not seek to catch the eye of the Chair later this afternoon, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I fear that it is on the cards that he will be successful. He will have every chance to put his point of view then.

An article in the Political Quarterlyissue for April to June 1974 shows that there is after all quite a lot that is rather special about Clay Cross and its late councillors. It is an astonishing story 61 which is well worth reading in full. It emerges that the story began well before the Housing Finance Bill and the advent of the Conservative Government of 1970. In December 1968 the district auditor warned the council of its duty to maintain a …proper balance between the interests of the ratepayers and those of the tenants …council delegations to London produced little sympathy from Labour Ministers at the Department of Housing and Local Government, and still less from the officials. Casting round for expedients to keep going, the council proposed to use £30,000 from the sale of land to keep rents low by covering the deficit in the housing revenue account. The clerk warned them that this was illegal. In London the Ministry refused to countenance the idea. Instead Ministers"— this was Labour Ministers— warned that action was 'vital and overdue'. The council needed a 'comparatively modest' rent increase. Officials also ventured the suggestion that the building and clearance programmes were moving at too fast a pace'. It has become quite clear that the way in which these councilors—

§ Mr. Skinner

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. We can have only one hon. Gentleman addressing the House at a time.

§ Mr. Raison

The way in which these councillors, who were virtually all council tenants themselves, treated their officers was also appalling.

§ Mr. Skinner

They were not.

§ Mr. Raison

They were. So, too, was the way in which they treated their ratepayers. At present the district auditor is inquiring into other activities of these councillors as well as in relation to the Housing Finance Act.

There are two other matters which I should like the Secretary of State or the Attorney-General to clear up before the debate finishes this evening. First, an article published in the Daily Telegraph on 28th March 1974 stated: Some members of the Cabinet appear to have anticipated their ministerial decision yesterday when the party's national executive adopted without dissent a recommendation asking the Government to hold up, if possible, the machinery of the district auditor, and to rescind all surcharges made because of non-collection of increased rents. I ask the Secretary of State whether this resolution of the National Executive 62 Committee has had any impact. Has it anything to do with what appears to be the remarkably slow progress of the district auditor in examining the 1972–73 accounts? We should like information about those authorities whose 1972–73 audits have not been completed. In other words, we demand assurances that the recommendation of the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party has been disregarded by Ministers.

§ Mr. Crosland

The answer is perfectly simple. Of course that recommendation has had no effect. I have no power to interfere with the work of the district auditor. In no circumstances would I dream of doing so. The hon. Member must understand that.

§ Mr. Raison

I am delighted to hear that the Secretary of State is willing to disregard the National Executive Committee. However, the fact remains that there is a remarkable coincidence between those authorities where the audit has not been completed and those which come under this Act.

§ Mr. Crosland

The hon. Gentleman is hardly being at his most generous when he makes these allegations, and then, when they are contradicted, will not withdraw them. I have spent the whole of my life ignoring resolutions of the National Executive Committee.

§ Mr. Raison

That is the first cause for congratulation that we have had for the Secretary of State this afternoon. There are some details which need to be answered.

§ Mr. Skinner

Withdraw.

§ Mr. Raison

I will not withdraw.

Secondly, I should like to know what is happening about the £7,000 surcharge on the Clay Cross councillors. The Secretary of State in a Written Answer last week told the House that it had not been paid. What is happening? When will it be paid? How long will it take? What has happened to the fund that the Labour Party set up to raise the £7,000 so that it should be paid? This surcharge was imposed a considerable time ago and the House is entitled to know when the £7,000 will be paid and how long it will be before the district auditor institutes proceedings to ensure that it is paid. We must he told.

§ Mr. Burden

If money has been specifically raised to pay that £7,000, that money can be used for no other purpose whatsoever. The House is entitled to know how much has been raised and what will be done with it.

§ Mr. Raison

I hope that we shall receive an answer to that.

The Bill proposes to remove disqualification and the possibility of further surcharge from the Clay Cross councillors whose conduct was condemned by Lord Denning in his judgment, By any standards Lord Denning is one of our most liberal judges.

§ Mr. Skinner

He is not liberal.

§ Mr. Raison

Lord Denning said: Each of them deliberately broke the solemn promise which he gave when he accepted office. Each of them has flagrantly defied the law. Each of them is determined to continue to defy it.…These men were flagrantly defying the law. They were not fit to be councillors. The sooner they were disqualified the better. These councillors are seeking, by one shift or another, to escape the consequences of their own wrongdoing. The time had come when they must be told quite firmly that the law must be obeyed. Their disobedience cannot be tolerated. They are disqualified. They must stand down. Others must be elected in their place—others who will fulfil the duties which these eleven have failed to do.

§ Mr. Skinner

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. These constant interruptions from a sedentary position make debate almost impossible. I must ask all hon. Members to bear that in mind.

§ Mr. Skinner

But the hon. Gentleman will not give way.

§ Mr. Raison

Those words of the Master of the Rolls sum up our case to full effect. The truth is that the Government are proposing in this disgraceful Bill to remit the disqualification and surcharge imposed or likely to be imposed on men of whom the judge spoke in those terms. That is why we find it totally unacceptable. I ask not only my hon. and right hon. Friends but all Members of the House to whom the word "honour" means anything to join with us in rejecting decisively this evil, contemptible measure.

§ Mr. Thomas Swain (Derbyshire, North-East)

Should I begin by saying, in the 64 words of the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raisosn), "comrade Speaker"?

I speak today as the Member for Derbyshire, North-East and as the proud representative of the Clay Cross First and Second Eleven, and, if the Second Eleven are disqualified, the Third Eleven.

I was sorry to hear the Minister, during what otherwise was a magnificent speech, say that he was in the main, but not completely, ignoring Resolution No. 191. It was accepted, in the best speech the present Leader of the House has ever made, at the Labour Party annual conference last year. Resolution 191 was passed by the constituency parties and by the trade unions and was accepted by the Cabinet. The resolution was to the effect that all penalties, financial and otherwise, should be removed retrospectively from councillors who defied the Housing Finance Act.

The hon. Member for Aylesbury alleged that my right hon. Friend had advocated defiance of the law. The hon. Gentleman said that that was giving a licence to defy the law. The hon. Gentleman also referred to the statement by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Toxteth (Mr. Crawshaw) that the Bill would give people the right to defy the law. The Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Science said that local authorities should defy the Labour Government as to implementing comprehensive education.

§ Mr. Hooson

Those who are concerned with the rule of law realise that there is intense feeling about comprehensive education, for example. If the House were to pass a law requiring local authorities to abolish grammar schools and if Conservative-controlled local authorities wished to defy such a law, would not the passing of this Bill provide them with an extraordinarily good precedent?

§ Mr. Swain

Not long ago the hon. and learned Gentleman was saying that there was a great upsurge in Liberal thinking in the country. As the Liberals lost a seat at the last election, I do not take the hon. and learned Gentleman's opinion as being valid.

The Housing Finance Act 1972 was a wicked and vicious Act. One of the main points I want to make is that the Standing Committee sat for five and a half months, under a guillotine in the later stages, 65 under the leadership of the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery). The Committee sat all night and every night every week for five and a half months.

I had a duty to my constituents to go and listen to many of the discussions. Very sensible questions were put by my right hon. and hon. Friends under the leadership of the present Secretary of State. The answers given by the then Government were foolish and showed the House of Commons that the Tory Government intended to have that Bill come hell or high water.

§ Mr. Rost

The hon. Gentleman referred to a duty to his constituents. Will he explain why so many of his constituents are writing to me and even coming to see me in my surgeries complaining about the threat of their rates being surcharged in North-East Derbyshire as a result of this legislation which the hon. Gentleman is supporting? How will he represent his constituents when they refuse to pay this surcharge in North-East Derbyshire because they regard it as unjust?

§ Mr. Swain

When the hon. Gentleman first got here many of his constituents came to my surgery and asked me why the hon. Gentleman could become a Member of Parliament after being drummed out of the Stock Exchange.

§ Mr. Rost

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance. Unless the hon. Gentleman withdraws that remark immediately, I shall raise it as a matter for the Committee of Privileges.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. Hon. Members are required not to make personal attacks upon individual Members. I am sure that the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East (Mr. Swain) does not wish to make a personal attack and would wish to withdraw that expression.

§ Mr. Swain

I do not see why I should withdraw it. It is the truth. It was printed in a newspaper only a fortnight ago. We can provide you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, with a copy within half an hour, if it is wished. Why should I not repeat something in this place—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. If we repeat everything that we see in the papers about each other we shall be 66 in great danger. I know that the hon. Member for Derbyshire, North-East will withdraw that remark at my request.

§ Mr. Swain

I will withdraw the remark at your request, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I will tell you something else. I will publish an apology to all the dogs in this country for their being brought to the low extent the hon. Gentleman brings them to in his constituency by dealing with my constituents.

§ Mr. Rost

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do not know whether the House can regard that as an apology for a completely personal attack in the House, when because of the privileges of the House I am not allowed to take action against the hon. Gentleman. I seek your protection.