EEC MEMBERSHIP (REFERENDUM)

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas)

Before we embark on the Adjournment debate, I have a statement to read from Mr. Speaker stating that it may help the House if I remind hon. Members of the ruling on 3rd February when devolution was similarly discussed on an Adjournment motion.

Standing Order No. 16 gives Mr. Speaker discretion in an Adjournment debate to disregard to some extent the practice which prohibits reference to matters requiring legislative remedy if he feels that the enforcement of the rule would unduly restrict discussion.

As Mr. Speaker reminded the House, his predecessors and he himself have considered the prohibition to apply principally to half-hour Adojurnment debates. It would scarcely be possible to exclude from discussion the fact that legislation on the subject of our debate today will ultimately be necessary to implement the proposals. Mr. Speaker therefore states that the occupant of the Chair will intervene only if an hon. Member makes direct reference to the detailed provisions of any future Bill, but it will be in order to discuss alternative methods of conducting the referendum and the manner in which any question is to be put. Mr. Speaker thinks that this arrangement worked to the general satisfaction of the House on the previous occasion and hopes that the House will agree that it is the only sensible course to obtain today.

§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short)

Whatever view we may take on Britain's membership of the European Community, I hope that we would all agree that this is much the most important issue that has faced this country for many years. Whether we decide to stay in or to come out, the effects on our economy, on our political and parliamentary systems, on our influence in the world and, indeed, perhaps eventually on our whole way of 292 life will be profound not just for ourselves, but for future generations.

How should a decision of this importance have been taken? The right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) had it right when he said that such a decision should be taken only with the full-hearted consent of Parliament and the British people. In our system we accept decisions with which we do not agree, but only if we are satisfied that they have been arived at fairly and democratically.

§ Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South-West)

In Parliament.

§ Mr. Short

Unfortunately, the last Government's handling of the European issue did not match their previous promises. They had no mandate to take us in, merely to negotiate— "nothing more, nothing less ". The result is that the consent of the British people has not, in fact, been secured. The issue continues to divide the country. The decision to go in has not yet been accepted.

That is the essence of the case for having a referendum. Only by means of a referendum can we find out whether the British people do or do not consent to our continued membership. A General Election could not give us this answer, because this is an issue within the parties, not between them.

How, for example, would a Conservative supporter opposed to our membership have recorded his view in the last two elections? [An HON. MEMBER: "Vote Labour."] That is quite right. One former Conservative recorded his view most appropriately, but a number of hon. Gentlemen opposite who took his view did not, I believe, follow his example.

The country has not yet had an opportunity to say whether we wish to be in or out. For an issue of this unique magnitude, that is simply not good enough.

I understand and respect the view of those devoted to this House and to the sovereignty of Parliament who argue that a referendum is alien to the principles and practices of parliamentary democracy. I respect their view, but I do not agree with it. I will tell the House why.

This referendum is wholly consistent with parliamentary sovereignty. The 293 Government will be bound by its result, but Parliament, of course, cannot be bound by it. Although one would not expect hon. Members to go against the wishes of the people, they will remain free to do so.

One of the characteristics of this Parliament is that it can never divest itself of its sovereignty. The referendum itself cannot be held without parliamentary approval of the necessary legislation. Nor, if the decision is to come out of the Community, could that decision be made effective without further legislation. I do not, therefore, accept that the sovereignty of Parliament is affected in any way by the referendum. Some argue that decisions on national issues should be taken wholly and exclusively by Members of the two Houses of Parliament. In general, we would all agree with that. But Governments are elected on their whole programme and it would be neither appropriate nor practicable to have referenda on individual parts of the package. Moreover, if Parliament's decisions are found to be wrong, a subsequent Parliament can reverse them, as we have been doing since February last year. But that surely does not apply to this matter.

Our membership of the European Community is a unique issue because it profoundly affects our relationships with other countries as well as our whole standing and status in the world. It is unique because in time it could become almost irreversible, not for legal reasons but because, as we are already finding, the longer we stay in the harder it will be to come out, and the harder it will be to find any adequate design for living outside.

In preparing the White Paper we have taken note of the views of those who have been consulted informally. I have had discussions with representatives of all the parties represented in the House, with Members representing a variety of different points of view, with the three major parties outside Parliament and with representatives of what are likely to be the two main campaigning groups. Having discussed the referendum with so many people of differing points of view, it is not surprising to me that the White Paper is not likely to satisfy everyone. But some of the proposals are still tentative. 294 As the Prime Minister has said, it is a White Paper with very green edges.

This debate is not about renegotiation, but, of course, the progress of renegotiation, as well as the passage of the Bill, will determine the timing of the referendum. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are today in Dublin on what I hope will be the final stage of renegotiation. Our aim is to introduce the Referendum Bill before the Easter Recess with a view to obtaining the Royal Assent by the third week in May. This would enable the referendum to be held in the second half of June.

The basic approach of the Government in making their proposals has been to stick as closely as possible to existing electoral machinery, evolved and tested over many years. To do so offers the best guarantee of efficiency, fairness and public acceptability. Familiarity and confidence in efficiency and fairness are more likely to ensure a good turnout and, what is tremendously important, to secure the widest acceptance of the result by the British people. We have, therefore, been prepared to depart from normal electoral practice only where there is good reason for doing so.

I turn now to the proposals in detail.

§ Mr. Alexander Fletcher (Edinburgh, North)

In view of the last remark made by the Lord President and as we, as a Parliament, will have to decide this issue, will he tell us why, in using the normal electoral machinery, we should not know precisely, each and every one of us, what are our constituents' views on this matter?

§ Mr. Short

The hon. Gentleman interrupted me after I had said, "I turn now to the proposals in detail." I shall deal with that point when I come to it, if the hon. Gentleman will allow me.

It has been suggested that the verdict of the electorate can hardly be regarded as decisive if there is a very low turnout or if those who do vote in favour of one course or the other do so by only a very narrow margin. There have been suggestions that we should stipulate a minimum poll or a minimum majority for the result to be decisive. Some of the groups I have consulted have been worried by the fact that the result of the poll could, I suppose, in the extreme case, be decided by one vote in many millions. But this 295 would be the case if there were a requirement for a minimum majority.

If there were a minimum majority, there would also be the problem that a clear majority which was less than the minimum would not decide the issue. I am quite sure that the British electorate would find that extremely hard to accept. Also, the idea of stipulating a minimum poll is just as difficult, and could lead to widespread abstention. If we are to have a referendum, I hope that all would agree that we want a high poll, particularly as it is in the national interest to secure the greatest possible degree of acceptance of the result.

§ Mr. Keith Speed (Ashford)

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's last statement, and accepting the referendum as important, may I ask why, therefore, cannot British citizens working in Europe and people on holiday have the vote?

§ Mr. Short

I have said that I shall be discussing all the details. If hon. Members will contain themselves, perhaps at the end of my speech, if I have not covered specific points, they will then ask me about them.

The question on the ballot paper has attracted a good deal of attention. The Government are not firmly committed to the proposal in the White Paper, but we believe that the question should be as clear and simple as possible and should require a "Yes" or "No" answer. There have been suggestions that even with the simplest possible question the precise wording on the ballot paper may have an effect on the way people vote. But there is no reliable evidence to support that view. In responding to any opinion poll, people may reply differently to the same question raised in a different way, but there is a world of difference between how people respond to an unexpected question from a pollster stopping them in the street or knocking at the door and how they respond to a question the text of which they have known about and been able to think about for several weeks, on a subject which has been a matter of controversy for some years.

§ Mr. Gwilym Roberts (Cannock)

I accept that there is some truth in what my right hon. Friend is saying— [HON. 296 MEMBERS: "Oh."]—some truth. However, is there not considerable statistical evidence in terms of the recent poll on divorce in Italy, where there was a very long and nationwide campaign, that the result was eventually confused by the fact that people did not understand what the "Yes" or "No" stood for in the question and answer? In this case, it seems to me that the simple answer— without wishing to make a point that is too statistical— is that the two simple, understandable words here about which there are no doubts at all are the words "in" and out ".

§ Mr. Short

I am glad that my hon. Friend has seen one gleam of truth in what I am saying. However, I am coming to the question of the terminology. There is a world of difference between the pollster putting that kind of question and the question put in a referendum at the end of a long campaign with a great deal of national publicity.

However, the wording will not be decided lightly. The British are a mature electorate and would respond very unfavourably to any suspicion that they were being pushed by the wording of the question into giving the answer that the Government wanted. There are problems of terminology in drafting the question. The word "we" is open to misinterpretation—

§ Mr. Cormack

Like the French.

§ Mr. Short

—but it does personalise the issue. The words "Great Britain" leave out Northern Ireland. "United Kingdom" is, of course, the correct term, but it may be an unfamiliar term to some voters. Or again, "Common Market" is a familiar term; "EEC" is less so. But neither is correct. There seems little likelihood of "European Community" being misunderstood. Again, should the word be "think" or "shall ", or should the word be "want" or "agree "? The latter word, "agree ", would certainly appear to be loaded. Finally, and perhaps most difficult of all, should the words be "stay in" "be in "? "Stay in" is consistent with the wording of the Labour Party's October Manifesto and it represents the present state of affairs.—[Interruption.] We try to carry out our promises. "Be in" is superficially more neutral but gives the misleading impression that we have a choice whether to join 297 the Community or not. The issue is whether we stay in or come out.

There is also the problem whether or not the question should be preceded by a preamble, as we have suggested. The Government have promised to consult people in the light of the renegotiated terms of membership. Renegotiation has led or will lead to the referendum. It seems right to us that people should be reminded of this by the preamble, but there is no attempt to influence by reference to a Government recommendation. It would be possible to make the preamble longer by adding, for example, "The United Kingdom has been a member of the European Community since January 1973 ". But clearly we want to avoid overburdening the ballot paper, which must be as simple as possible. However, some reference to the renegotiated terms seems to us to be appropriate.

I turn now to—

§ Mr. David Steel (Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles)

Before the Leader of the House leaves the question of renegotiation — he passed over that very quickly earlier — as he says, the word is used on the proposed ballot paper. However, how will it be explained to the public that renegotiation does not stop at any magic point after Dublin and that the Government themselves have indicated that they wish further to discuss the question of the steel terms?

§ Mr. Short

The Government embarked on a programme of points to be renegotiated. The Prime Minister will be reporting to Parliament on the result of the renegotiation.

I turn now to the register. There have been proposals that the normal parliamentary election register should be extended in a number of ways beyond the inclusion of peers as proposed in the White Paper. For example, it has been proposed that Service voters who are not on the current register should be included. Of course, they have a chance to register. It has also been proposed that those working in other countries should have a postal vote if they apply for it. I recognise the arguments—

§ Mr. Short

I shall give way in a moment.

I recognise the arguments. No firm decisions have yet been taken on such proposals. There are issues of principle, which apply equally to General Elections, and there are many practical difficulties in trying to establish at short notice some form of supplementary register. Sticking to the current parliamentary register and to our normal electoral practice would make it possible to hold the referendum before the summer holidays. There is a case for proceeding quickly and getting the matter settled one way or the other.

There is a case for sticking as closely as possible to existing electoral procedures. That would mean no postal votes for holidaymakers. As it is our intention to hold the referendum in June, very few people will be on holiday.

§ Mr. Short

To allow postal voting would certainly have implications in General Elections. Our normal practice when we make such changes is to refer them to Mr. Speaker's Conference for study in depth.

§ Mr. Mark Carlisle (Runcorn)

Am I not right in saying that when the issue of votes for those on holiday has been considered in the past, the only argument which has been put against it is that the period between the calling of a General Election and the date by which a postal vote has to be submitted is too short to allow them to have a vote? Presumably that argument cannot apply when we shall know many weeks in advance the date on which the referendum will take place? What is the argument against allowing those on holiday to vote?

§ Mr. Short

I hope that the House will look at this matter dispassionately. I have said that we have not taken a decision. We are willing to listen to the views of hon. Members. It does not help to shout about it. Let us discuss the matter objectively and sensibly. In reply to the hon. and learned Gentleman, we shall have to proceed on an informal basis until the Bill receives Royal Assent. That is one of the problems. The period would be relatively short—namely, about three weeks. We are prepared to consider the matter.

§ Sir Geoffrey Howe (Surrey, East)

Since the capital transfer tax has been proceeding on an informal basis since 26th March last year and has not yet received Royal Assent, does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the arrangements for the referendum could proceed in the same manner?

§ Mr. Short

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is getting obsessive about the capital transfer tax.

§ Mr. John Lee (Birmingham, Handsworth)

As speed is of the essence, and bearing in mind that the Government put forward the peculiar proposal that peers may be included in the electoral roll for the purposes of the referendum, will my right hon. Friend say what the Government propose to do if the referendum legislation is obstructed in another place?

§ Mr. Short

I never bid the Devil, "Good morning ". Let us deal with such difficulties when we reach them.

We hope to help electors by arranging for poll cards to be produced in time. That will help the electors. There are many electors who imagine that they cannot vote unless they have a poll card. The advice of hon. Members will he welcome on possible solutions to the problems of independent scrutiny particularly at the count. There are a number of possibilities and I should like to know the views of hon. Members.

I turn now to the question of how the votes should be counted and how the results should be declared. The choice broadly is between different methods of counting locally by constituencies, counties or regions, with local or central announcement of the results, and, on the other hand, a central count. As I have already said, we want the referendum to unite the country behind a decision one way or the other. We want that decision to be reached democratically. We do not want it to be used for their own purposes by those who wish to divide the United Kingdom. There are some who wish to do that and who look forward to using the referendum for that purpose.

§ Mr. Douglas Henderson (Aberdeenshire, East)

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way and for coming 300 clean on the real reason for the extraordinary decision being made to insist upon a central count. I take it as a great compliment to my hon. Friends and myself that the right hon. Gentleman has found it necessary to proceed in that way. Bearing in mind his desire that familiar and tested electoral procedures should be followed, it will seem strange to people in Scotland, Wales and elsewhere that the votes will have to be trundled down to London. They will find it strange that there will not be adequate facilities for scrutineers to come from the areas that I have mentioned to ensure that the votes are correctly counted and to ask for a recount should there be a necessity for that course to be taken. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that it would reassure people, and avoid the feeling that there might be a fiddling of the votes, if instead of being brought to London to be counted the votes were counted in the areas where the voting takes place?

§ Mr. Short

I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, he will be able to put forward his point of view.

Confidentiality of results at local counts could never be guaranteed. It is a national poll and a national issue. The purpose of the referendum is to find out what the people of the United Kingdom think and not what any area or region thinks. The constituency is the whole of the United Kingdom. The Government propose that the ballot boxes shall be brought to London and the votes counted centrally. That would be a major task, but by no means impossible. It would take five days, including polling day, to count the votes. Details of the organisation are now being urgently investigated by a senior official who has been appointed to take responsibility for the arrangements until a national returning officer can be appointed.

I cannot yet say where it is proposed to hold the count, but the range of centres available in London for an operation of this size and duration is limited. Of course, Earls Court would be the natural choice because London is at the centre of our national communications. The date of the referendum—

§ Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Down, South)

The right hon. Gentleman observed a 301 short while ago that the confidentiality of local results could not be guaranteed. Undoubtedly that is the case. Undoubtedly there will be a great deal of information, more or less accurate, of how the vote has gone in different localities. Is that not an argument which carries strongly in the opposite direction to the right hon. Gentleman's present tendency, since, if that is to be so, it would be far better if the truth were properly known and ascertained in the right way?

§ Mr. Short

That is a point of view. We want to know what the United Kingdom thinks as a whole. We are not concerned solely with Northern Ireland or Scotland or solely with anywhere else. The issue is whether the United Kingdom wishes to stay in or to come out.

§ Mr. Edward Gardner (South Fylde)

I have a short point to put to the right hon. Gentleman which I hope the House will consider important. How on earth— or for that matter anywhere else— are the Government to make the administrative arrangements that will be able to cope with an enlarged register bringing in possibly 25 million to 30 million votes and to count those votes within five days?

§ Mr. Short

We have carried out a feasibility study into this question and we believe that it can be done in five days. The date of the referendum must depend upon the progress of renegotiation. Polling day is traditionally on a Thursday in General Elections, and all but a handful of results are available in less than 24 hours. If the count is to take five days, Thursday would present difficulties, but there would be an advantage in using the traditional polling day, and the earliest practicable day would probably be 19th June. If, on the other hand, a five-day operation is inevitable, the need to secure the speediest possible result indicates a poll earlier in the week than Thursday. A Sunday poll would be unacceptable to a great many people and a Monday would therefore obviously be the best. However, I would welcome views on this matter. The earliest practicable Monday woul probably be 23rd June. Wakes weeks begin in the second half of June, and on 23rd June I believe only two towns will be on holiday. On 30th June, 302 however, they would be joined by a dozen other Lancashire towns.

I turn now to the question of information. There is a good deal of evidence that voters need a great deal more information about the Market. The media and the campaigning organisations can be expected to provide plenty of general information. The Government's job is to supply objective information on the EEC generally and on the renegotiated terms and on the Government's recommendations. We feel that the special nature of the referendum justifies the delivery to every household of a popular version of the White Paper on the renegotiated terms and on the Government's recommendation. I am glad to tell the House that the Post Office and the Post Office workers are prepared to take on this substantial task—[Interruption.] I would have thought that the Opposition would have been pleased about that.

§ Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South)

My right hon. Friend said that the Government would provide objective information and a White Paper, but would it not be more confusing if, in the words of the White Paper, they answered requests for…interpretation of the renegotiated terms and the like "? If they did that, who could tell what was interpretation and what was objective fact?

§ Mr. Short

Government Departments will be asked for information. Government Departments are telephoned every day for all kinds of information, and I am sure that there would be a flood of information about this.

Although procedures for the conduct of the referendum will resemble as closely as possible those for a General Election, the Government will have to ensure that the voters understand the mechanics of the operation and have a proper advance notice of the question on the ballot paper.

We have also considered the campaigns likely to be mounted by the two umbrella organisations, and we have come to the view that, in the interests of a fair contest, there is something to be said for a modest degree of support for the two organisations— particularly as there is likely to be disparity in the funds available to them. A lot will depend on how 303 far the bodies on each side coalesce into a reasonably united umbrella grouping. The Government could not offer to fund every separate body that proposes to campaign. Any money made available would, of course, have to be accounted for by the organisations after polling day.

However, whatever is decided on a direct cash subvention, the Government's major contribution is likely to be paying for the production and distribution, at the same time as the Government's own documents—which I have described—of the brief statement of both sides of the case which the White Paper describes as similiar to an election address.

There are precedents in other countries for the production of a document of this kind. I hope that hon. Members will agree that it is a reasonable proposal. It will allow each side to have a statement of its case sent to every household in the country.

§ Mr. Cormack

If the renegotiated terms are achieved in Dublin today, and if the Prime Minister, as he has indicated, commends these to the country, will he sign the election address?

§ Mr. Short

This will be a statement of the case written by the umbrella organisation concerned. It will prepare its own part of the case. Discussions are proceeding with the two campaigning bodies on this matter.

It will be very difficult, and probably impossible to legislate to control expenditure as happens in the case of a General Election, especially as such control could only relate to the very short period between the Royal Assent and the referendum. We take the view that it is probably better to ensure that there are all the normal electoral safeguards against undue pressure on individuals than to try to construct a restrictive framework of control on total expenditure.

The voters' main source of information will be television— even more so than at an election because there are no candidates. Provided television presentation is balanced it would take a very great deal to upset the balance of the campaign as a whole. I am confident that the BBC and IBA will ensure the correct balance both in their current 304 affairs programmes and in the referendum broadcasts.

§ Mr. Churchill (Stretford)

On the question of television time and on the funding of the campaigns on each side of the case, will the Leader of the House and his colleagues bear in mind what appears likely at the moment, that the three major national democratic parties in this country — the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party— will be on one side on this issue and the National Front and the Communist Party will be on the other side? Will he beware giving undue publicity to extremists of these parties?

§ Mr. Short

I do not accept that proposition at all.

I turn now to the Bill itself. It will be a relatively simple measure, which will authorise the holding of the referendum and will specify the wording of the ballot paper. It will provide for the appointment of someone to be responsible for the count and the certification of the result. It will make appropriate financial provisions and include power to adapt existing electoral machinery by order, and if the proposal is generally acceptable it will provide for assistance to the two campaigning bodies. A draft of the order setting out the electoral provisions will be available when the Bill is debated. The order will be made as soon as possible after Royal Assent. It will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and we believe it will be for the advantage of the House for a draft of the order to be available at the same time as the debate on Second Reading.

This Government came to power on a pledge that within 12 months of the election the people of Britain would be given the final say on whether to accept the terms that were in process of renegotiation or to reject them and come out. That promise we shall now fulfil. In doing so we shall be fulfilling also, two years late, the promise made by the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath). For at last the British people will have their chance to say whether or not they give their full-hearted consent to our membership of the EEC.

§ Mrs. Margaret Thatcher (Finchley)

From the way in which the Leader of the 305 House began his speech, one would have thought that a referendum had been an inherent part of the Labour Party's doctrine for a very long time. The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that that is not true. In July 1971 the present Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition, said from this Dispatch Box, when the question was being discussed at Question Time: I oppose a referendum, and I agree— I have always done so, as he has. The idea of an advisory referendum was not then put forward, but I still agree with the right hon. Gentleman on this question. But since he said, rightly, that the decision must be taken by Members of Parliament, each of them taking responsibility for his decision in the matter, will he look again at the White Paper which he published yesterday."— [Official Report, 8th July 1971; Vol. 820, c. 1515.] It is clear from that that the present Prime Minister was wholly against referenda and thought that the decision should be made by Members of Parliament. I was a little concerned that in the closing parts of his speech the Lord President said that the British people must have the final say. I cannot quote his exact words, but I think that that was the expression he used. That is inconsistent with his earlier remark that the referendum did not derogate from parliamentary sovereignty. If it does not derogate from parliamentary sovereignty, it is Parliament which has the final say. He said that his pledge was that the British people should have the final say. That shows our constitutional difficulty in discussing this subject and in taking decisions before we have thought about them properly and considered all the consequences

The Lord President made great play on the question of the full-hearted consent of the people. Yesterday, when I was having the compulsory cold collation which we have to have these days, I was interested to see this letter in the Evening Standard: How tired one gets of the well-worn clichç ' the full-hearted consent of the people '. What exactly is meant by this? Referenda for every important piece of legislation? If this was the case, we would have no Race Relations Act, immigration would have been stopped, abortions would still be illegal and hanging still be in force. All these laws were passed not only without this full-hearted consent nonsense, but, if the polls are to be believed, in the face of a determined 70 to 80 per cent. of the electors' wishes to the contrary. 306 I expect that that is what we shall move to if we have the first referendum without considering the consequences that every piece of legislation will require full-hearted consent, which normally means consent exercised through the House, consent which my right hon. Friends and I have been concerned to exercise through the House but which the Lord President is now saying is consent exercised through the new device of a referendum. That used not to be part of the Labour Party's doctrine.

This referendum, if it is held, will be the first in United Kingdom history to affect the whole of the United Kingdom, but the White Paper makes no attempt to consider this constitutional decision.

§ Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, Central)

Does the right hon. Lady think that the referendum on whether the Six Counties should remain part of the United Kingdom did or did not affect the rest of the United Kingdom?

§ Mrs. Thatcher

The referendum was not taken over the whole of the United Kingdom, as the hon. Gentleman knows.

The White Paper makes no attempt to consider the constitutional decision of a referendum. It does not discuss its long-term effect and it does not indicate the status of the referendum result at law. Indeed, the White Paper avoids all the fundamental arguments and treats the whole question as merely one of tactics and organisation— and to that I would add semantics.

The speech made by the Lord President shows how difficult it will be to frame a question which suits everyone and is regarded as fair by everyone, let alone how difficult will be the framing of the 1,000-word statements by umbrella groupings. That will be even worse.

Used by the Labour Government in the form proposed, the referendum is a tactical device to get over a split in their own party, and any constitutional consequences are, therefore, of only secondary importance in the Government's eyes.

§ Mr. Michael English (Nottingham, West)

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the Labour Party picked up the idea of a referendum during the passage of the European Communities Bill from an amendment tabled by the hon. Member 307 who represents the faction in the Conservative Party that is anti-market?

§ Mrs. Thatcher

On that occasion the referendum was rejected. Speeches were made on the subject from both sides of the House, to which I shall refer. The hon. Gentleman's interruption does not alter the fact that the White Paper makes no attempt to discuss the constitutional position once we have had the first referendum, although members of the Government accept that once we have a first referendum things will be different and will never be the same again.

I quote from a letter which appeared in The Times of 11th April 1972 from the Home Secretary: It may be argued…that the EEC referendum would be a once-for-all operation. The device would never be used again. Who can possibly say that? Once the principle of the referendum has been introduced into British politics, it will not rest with any one party to put a convenient limit to its use. And most history shows, as Clem Attlee pointed out with terse force in 1945, that it is a splendid weapon for demagogues and dictators. Those who resigned with the Home Secretary on the occasion when the Labour Party later adopted the referendum— I understand after two meetings of the Shadow Cabinet within the space of a fortnight— took a similar view.

§ Mr. Roderick MacFarquhar (Belper)

I remind the right hon. Lady that the gentleman who proposed a referendum in 1945 was the then Leader of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister— Sir Winston Churchill.

§ Mrs. Thatcher

Indeed, yes. If I may go on with my own speech I shall come to that.

Referenda have been discussed before, in the House and elsewhere. There are some names that can be quoted in support of both sides of the argument. There will be even more names that can be quoted on both sides of the argument before we have finished the debate, if certain members of the Government vote in a way contrary to the way in which they resigned some time ago.

First, Dicey will be quoted on both sides of the argument, first by looking at the main edition of his book, which states that parliamentary sovereignty is supreme and, secondly, by looking at his views as a political activist who hated the party 308 system and thought that what he called the absolutism of a party possessed of parliamentary majority needed to be curbed. I confess that when I look at the Government benches I am inclined to agree with him that there are times when the absolutism of a majority party needs to be curbed, particularly in the period when curbs have been stopped after the reduction in powers of the House of Lords.

§ Mr. Gordon Wilson (Dundee, East)

Is the right hon. Lady aware that Dicey is a work on English constitutional law which is not acceptable in Scotland? Is she also aware that the Prime Minister promised the Lord Advocate consultation on the question of the constitution of Scotland?

§ Mrs. Thatcher

Do read him. Both the eighth and tenth editions are full of good stuff. The last one which he wrote was the eighth edition.

§ Mr. Michael Stewart (Fulham)

rose—

§ Mrs. Thatcher

I would prefer to get on, otherwise I shall take such a long time. I have only just started.

§ Mr. Michael Stewart

I only wished to say that I hope that the right hon. Lady will not pray Dicey in aid too much. If she reads another of the appendices to his great work, she will find that he argued that it was against the order of nature that women should elect Members of Parliament.

§ Mrs. Thatcher

It is interesting that in these days it is much easier for women to get on in the Conservative Party than in the Labour Party. Women who are politically interested therefore know which party to join to pursue their political activities. The reference to Dicey which I have made came in the introduction to the eighth edition, and it was used as an argument against a referendum. Dicey was on both sides, and will be prayed in aid by both sides.

Churchill proposed a referendum at a time when there had not been a General Election for a long period, when the normal constitutional procedures were in suspense. Previously, as Home Secretary — Home Secretaries seem to get into trouble on the referenda issue— Churchill resisted an amendment to have a referendum in 1911.

309 Churchill also can be prayed in aid on both sides— against the referendum when in Government, and for a referendum at the end of the wartime period. Therefore, one can pray in aid well-known parliamentarians or constitutional lawyers on both sides.

It is frequently the case that those who are against a change in the law put up the proposition of a referendum when they think that, by having one, they can defeat the change in the substantive law. That is the usual reason for such a suggestion. The answer given by the Government of the day is to consider all constitutional consequences. There have been a number of cases of that kind. There was a conference on the reform of the second Chamber which looked at the question of referenda and came to the following conclusion: The majority of the conference did not approve this plan on the ground, among others, that the use of the referendum, once introduced, could not be confined to cases for which it was in this instance proposed and that it might tend to lower the authority and dignity of Parliament. Whoever tends to be against a Bill proposes a referendum. Normally the answer is, Let us consider its constitutional effects before agreeing to it "

The White Paper takes the view "Other democratic countries have had a referendum—why should not we? "That is to take far too simplistic a view of the referendum and to attempt to divorce one constitutional feature of a country from its whole context and refuse to look at the matter against a proper background.

If one is considering a referendum— I would he prepared to consider it, but not against this background— it would have to be considered against whether one should have a written constitution, under what circumstances one should have referenda, and how one would require to limit the power and curb the use of it by the Government of the day.

§ Mr. Lee

Rightly or wrongly— I would say wrongly— have we not already got a written constitution by virtue of our affiliation to the Common Market? It is full of written provisions which purport to apply to this country.

§ Mrs. Thatcher

The answer is "No." On occasion, those who have proposed a referendum naturally have subordinated whatever they might have thought of the 310 constitutional circumstances of a referendum to what they thought of the provision which it was meant to be against. We recognise that this may happen again. But before embarking on a referendum we, as a House, should consider its far-reaching consequences. We should attempt to do so under four heads. First, parliamentary sovereignty; secondly, collective responsibility; thirdly, representative Parliament; and, fourthly, the consequences for treaty obligations which have already been assumed.

Let me deal first with parliamentary sovereignty. There is no power under which the British constitution can come into rivalry with the legislative sovereignty of Parliament. That is the tenth edition of Dicey. To subject laws retrospectively to a popular vote suggests a serious breach of this principle. To subject laws prospectively before the final assent of the popular vote suggests we are using a different rule to validate laws. To have several referenda would create a new rule. We should be saying that some proposals require popular ratification and others do not. Without a written constitution one might ask: which proposals and what kind of measures?

The Government seek to avoid that question by claiming that the case is unique. That is unconvincing, and masks the fact that they see the matter purely in terms of political expediency and party need. To use the referendum device at all is to ask the question: to what category of measure should referenda apply? Presumably the answer would be: in cases of constitutional change. But it is hard to define such a change in the British tradition because so much depends on convention and precedent. A referendum may, however, become acceptable if given a proper constitutional foundation— that is to say, if the conditions under which it could be used were defined. But that would mean, like many other democratic countries, going as far as a written constitution or at least part of the way. The implications for parliamentary sovereignty are profound. But if our sense of constitutional rules and conventions is weakening, there may come a time when some such course should be considered.

Secondly, I turn to the principle of collective responsibility. The statement in 311 the annex to the White Paper makes it clear that the doctrine of collective responsibility will be suspended prior to the poll. I believe that it is suspended not on the terms of entry but on the whole principle of entry. That is the only consistent interpretation of what would happen. But the whole relationship of government with Parliament depends on that principle. No Government can be properly accountable to Parliament unless they acknowledge a collective responsibility with regard to main matters of policy. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House described this as the most important issue that has faced the country for many years. What he is saying is that the people must make a decision, Parliament must make a decision, but the Government are incapable of making a decision. On all major matters the essential task of government is decision. That does not mean absence of argument or absence of some differences. It means the capacity to reach a decision after argument and consideration, and sticking to it or resigning.

We now face the new system. If the Government cannot agree, gone is the discipline of resignation, gone is the principle of accountability to Parliament. The new doctrine is to pass the buck to the people. Let the people arbitrate is the view. Normally if people are to arbitrate, one would usually ask whether they consent to arbitrate in that way. That was the view taken by the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and who wrote a letter to The Times on 27th March 1972 in the following terms: If we are to have a referendum, surely its first use must be to see whether the British people wish to introduce so important a departure from constitutional practice. The Leader of the House said that the present referendum proposal was in his manifesto, but the Labour Government were returned to power on the basis of about 38 per cent. of votes cast or on the basis of about 28 per cent. of those eligible to vote. In fact there is no mandate for a referendum.

§ Mr. Edward Short

Will the right hon. Lady tell the House what her percentage was in the election?

§ Mrs. Thatcher

The right hon. Gentleman is not really attempting to understand the argument. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster would do very much better. It was that right hon. Gentleman I was quoting. There is no evidence that the vast majority of our people wish to have a referendum on this issue.

If we wish to make certain, the logical and reasonable thing to do is to ask, in the first question—it could be done within the framework of the local elections— "Do you wish to leave this question to Parliament to decide in the normal way? ", in the way in which every single one of the original six Common Market countries decided. Although many of those countries have provision for referenda in their constitutions, they did not use it.

§ The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. Gerald Fowler)

I have been trying to follow with great care the right hon. Lady's argument about mandates. Will she accept that, if the present Government have no mandate for a referendum, the Conservative Government had no mandate to take us into the Common Market in the first place?

§ Mrs. Thatcher

The hon. Gentleman cannot be much of a believer in parliamentary sovereignty to have made that intervention.

If Parliament is still sovereign—

§ Mr. Spearing

No taxation without representation.

§ Mrs. Thatcher

We could not be considering taking the country out of the Community unless Parliament were still sovereign, as the hon. Gentleman knows. If he believes in parliamentary sovereignty, yes, we had a mandate for going into Europe, and he knows it.

What I am saying is that if one wishes to ask whether the people want to leave the decision to Parliament— and I believe that many of them would like to do so— the proper procedure would be to put that question to them and find out. Why does not the right hon. Gentleman provide for that question to be put first? It might avoid all the other problems of having a referendum, of getting the umbrella organisations to draft statements, and so on.

§ Mr. Philip Whitehead (Derby, North)

I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Lady for giving way. Does she not accept that parliamentary sovereignty for the referendum is explicit in the vote taken by the House tonight? Once the House has decided upon a referendum we can have sovereignty precisely as she said for entry into the Common Market. That is parliamentary sovereignty.

§ Mrs. Thatcher

Not by the vote taken tonight—

§ Mr. Whitehead

Yes.

§ Mrs. Thatcher

Only after the passage of the Bill through all its stages. Parliamentary sovereignty is not changed by declaration of the House, but only after the passage of a Bill through the House of Commons and the House of Lords, and after the giving of the Royal Assent, exactly the same passage as the European Communities Bill followed fully, after which we became a signatory to the treaty.

If we had a Government with enough courage to make a decision and give a clear lead, they would resign if they were defeated by the decision of the people. But, if I understand him correctly, the right hon. Gentleman has said elsewhere that the Government would not resign if the referendum went against their recommendation. Contrast Norway, which is used as an example for a referendum, where the Government resigned. But we understand that some members of the Government would resign. [An HON. MEMBER: "Stupid."] It is not very stupid, if one believes in collective responsibility. What the right hon. Gentleman is doing is to demolish collective responsibility for Labour Party convenience. He has a device so that the Government may stay, even if they are held in no confidence by the people. The people may say "We object to your main point of policy ", but nevertheless they have a device to stay in power, divided though they may be.

The third point I wish to make is the effect of a referendum on representative Government. The point was put forcibly in a debate on a Reference to the People Bill introduced in another place on 2nd March 1911. The Lord Chancellor then pointed out that our system, which has been copied all over the world, is one 314 of representative Government under which those who have not time to look into every detail of this or that Bill choose people who are honourable and with whose opinions they are in harmony to discuss these matters. That has been our system of Government for many years, representative Government in which the representatives consider and discusss all the points in detail. In a popular vote, the voter expresses an individual opinion. In a representative institution, the representative would be expected to consider the interests of minorities and see how the separate measure fitted into the whole. I believe that if we have a referendum system, minorities would not receive anything like such a fair deal as they have under the existing system. I think that that is what the correspondent to the Evening Standard was also trying to say.

The fourth point concerns respect for treaty obligations. The obligations which we assumed by signing and ratifying the treaty were validly, correctly and constitutionally assumed under the full sovereignty and competence of Parliament. The treaty has been in operation for over two years.

§ The Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. David Ennals)

Without the support of the people.

§ Mrs. Thatcher

Would the right hon. Gentleman wish to put capital punishment to the test of a referendum? Of course he would not, because he is prepared to choose the cases on which he consults the people, according to the convenience of the Government. Perhaps the late Lord Attlee was right when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues.

The treaty has been in operation for over two years. I know of no country in the Western World in which a referendum has been used to override a treaty obligation which had been through all its parliamentary stages and had been in operation for two years. Such a step would have a damaging effect on Britain's standing in the world.

We do not even know what the status of the referendum decision is. The right hon. Gentleman's speech did not exactly clarify the position. It is said 315 that the referendum is advisory or consultative. I believe that if there is a high poll and a clear majority, the result will in fact be binding on Parliament, whatever one may say in law about parliamentary sovereignty. I cannot envisage that a Parliament, whatever individual Members might have thought, if there were a clear vote against— [Interruption.] It is not advisory or consultative in the event of a clear result. It would be binding on everyone. [HON. MEMBERS: "No. "] It would bind and fetter parliamentary sovereignty in practice.

But if there were a low poll, and an indecisive result, the question would arise whether the British people had genuinely given their verdict by their vote. The Government might regard themselves as bound, but the result could not fetter the decision of Parliament. The uncertainty would be likely to be increased and not ended. If the decision were taken to come out on a low poll, it would be possible to argue that a further referendum should be taken when the revised terms of a free trade area were considered and had been through the House. I am sure that one side or the other would find a method to argue for a second referendum in the event of a low poll, and for not accepting the result. We could get into a difficult position by having embarked upon this first referendum without fully considering the consequences.

I turn to the sequence of events which led to this proposal.

§ Mr. Jeremy Thorpe (Devon, North)

The right hon. Lady has enunciated a constitutional principle which some of us found a little difficult to understand. She said that in practice, if there were a large turn-out and a majority one way or the other, Parliament as a whole would be bound. Is she saying that that would over-ride the obligations that Members of Parliament entered into with their constituents at the previous election, which might be entirely different?

§ Mrs. Thatcher

I thought that I had made the position clear. I am sorry if I have not done so. In law, the result could not fetter Parliament, but I believe that in practice it would. That is all that I said. If there were an overwhelming decision one way or the other, I believe that in practice the, decision 316 in Parliament would follow the referendum result. That could in no way fetter the way in which Members not fetter them. I was talking only about what I believed would happen in practice what I believed would happen in practice.

We know the sequence of events which led up to this proposal. In 1971, the present Prime Minister was firmly against a referendum. But problems and divisions were arising in his own party, and one group of dissenters campaigned for a referendum. We accept that any hon. Member who holds strong views on the legislation itself is entitled to propose any method which he chooses to defeat it. But when Cabinets and Shadow Cabinets come to deliberate, they should bear in mind all the constitutional consequences of the course of action proposed to be slow to undermine cherished principles which have served liberty well for a long time.

It is quite possible to put a democratic case for having referendum provisions. If a referendum is put forward seriously as a constitutional instrument, we should need to consider the different kinds of referenda involved and what they implied for the present rules and conventions of our political order.

Assuming that we wanted the referendum provisions to apply only to constitutional questions, we should try to define what that means in a British context— an extraordinarily difficult exercise. If we wanted to avoid leaving the decision on whether to have a referendum to the whim of future Governments, we should have to think of some means of limiting its powers.

The White Paper does none of this. It is a practical expedient. It will have far-reaching consequences. The immediate point may be to register a popular view towards staying in the EEC. The longer-term result will be to create a new method of validating laws. What one Minister has used as a tactical advantage on one issue today, others will use for different issues tomorrow. This will lead to a major constitutional change, a change which should only be made if, after full deliberation, it was seriously thought to be a lasting improvement on present practice.

No such deliberation occurs in the White Paper which has been described 317 in the Sunday Times of 2nd March as reeking fittingly of shame There is nothing here of the sovereign people, the higher democracy, the deeper search for a fuller-hearted consent…The Paper is written, unmistakably, by people who have lost all conviction in what they are saying. The referendum's true genesis, as a piece of thoughtless short-term brokerage in the Labour Party, is aptly reflected in the White Paper's dominant tone, which is one of helpless bewilderment at what is about to happen. We saw that in the speech of the Leader of the House today.

This White Paper has come about because of the Government's concern for internal party interests. It is a licence for Ministers to disagree on central issues but still stay in power. I believe that the right course would be to reject it and to consider the wider constitutional issues properly and at length.

§ Mr. Jeremy Thorpe (Devon, North)

I am delighted to be called immediately after the Leader of the Opposition in what I believe was her maiden speech in that rôle. I agree with much of what she said, save for the constitutional matter which I raised with her in my intervention and with which I should like to deal in a moment.

The only matter which is unique in this whole discussion is that the Government wish to hold a referendum. I should say straight away that many right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House, including some of my own colleagues on the Liberal bench, have on different occasions for different reasons put forward the idea in principle of holding referenda for different purposes. I myself have not. I have always been opposed to them.

§ Mr. Thorpe

I should like at least to start my speech. I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman later. What is unique — Mr. Buchan rose—

§ Mr. Thorpe

If the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) wishes to refer to the Feu Duties Bill or to the 318 Ten-Minute Bill about devolution which include a referendum, certainly I voted for them if that makes him happy.

§ Mr. Thorpe

I am sorry. I am entitled at least to start my speech. If the hon. Gentleman still feels that he wishes to raise a point with me later, I will give way to him, but not now. I wish to start my speech.

What is unique is that the Government of the day are recommending that we should have a referendum. Since this has not always been the view of the Labour Party, we are entitled to examine the Government's motives for this change just as much as we are the machinery which they are recommending.

On 25th November 1969, at column 199, of the Official Report, when the present Prime Minister was then Prime Minister, he was asked by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) whether legislation might be introduced for a national referendum on entry into the Common Market once the terms were known. The Prime Minister's reply, which was unusually short and incredibly decisive, was "No, Sir." I know the modesty of the hon. Member for Banbury, and I am sure that he will forgive me if I do not quote his supplementary question because it was not highly relevant or germane to my present argument. But he has at least been consistent in these matters. The Prime Minister went on to say: It is contrary to our traditions in this country…Hon. Members on either side of the House do not usually feel that referenda are a way in which to conduct our public affairs. I am sure that a referendum would give 100 per cent. support for increasing expenditure on every item. It would give 100 per cent. support for abolishing income tax. At that point, Sir Gerald Nabarro intervened to say: What a splendid idea! The Prime Minister went on: That was what I hoped to imply. It is not a way in which we can do business. These are matters on which hon. Members are elected to the House and they have been free to express their opinions, as they were in the debates in the House, and as they will he again when we are offered terms for joining the Common Market."— [Official Report, 25th November 1969; Vol. 792, c. 199–200.] 319 Then again, when the Labour Party was in power and the Government published their White Paper (Cmnd. Paper 4289) in February 1970 they said: Once the outcome of negotiations is clear, it will then be for Parliament to decide. If we look at the Labour Party Manifesto of 1970, under the heading, Now Britain is strong. Let's make it great to live in.", there are two references to Europe. The first underlines the desire of the Labour Party …to play a full part in the future political and economic development of our continent. The second says: …we have applied for membership of the EEC and negotiations are due to start in a few weeks' time. These will be pressed with determination with the purpose of joining an enlarged Community provided that British and essential Commonwealth interests can be safeguarded. Shortly after, in the debates in this House, when there was a majority of 112 on the terms negotiated, I remember asking the present Secretary of State for Employment, who at the time was in an unaccustomed position on the Opposition Front Bench, when at any stage in the 1970 General Election the Labour Party, either in its manifesto or in any speech or broadcast, ever said that before Britain went into the Common Market there would either be a General Election or a referendum and that either one or the other would be a condition precedent. The right hon. Gentleman could not give me that answer, because there was no answer which he could give me. It had never been a condition precedent.

The Leader of the Opposition referred to the speed with which the present Prime Minister sprang to the Dispatch Box on 8th July 1971 to assure the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), the then Prime Minister, that it was true that he had always been totally consistent in opposing the concept of a referendum. The conversion came in April 1972 as a result of which the Home Secretary, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Mr. George Thomson all resigned from the Shadow Cabinet and the Home Secretary wrote that he could not accept this constant shifting of ground. If I may give the right hon. Gentleman a piece of friendly advice, he should accept the dictum of the old Clydesider, "If you 320 can't ride two horses at once, you shouldn't be in the ruddy circus at all."

Therefore, we are entitled to ask why the Labour Government have changed their mind. There has not been a sudden democratic rush of blood to the head. If there was any lingering doubt about that, certainly the Leader of the House did not give that impression.

I believe that it would be profoundly unfair to put forward any explanation other than from the lips of the Labour Party itself.

The right hon. Lady the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection, speaking on the Thames Television programme "People and Politics "on 20th February 1975. reported in The Times on the following day, said: The Government would have broken up if it had not been decided to hold a referendum ". She said that although the referendum was bound to cause wounds within the party, she thought it would survive. I think Harold is very good at healing wounds she added. No one has greater experience, and needs to have greater experience, of doing that, than the right hon. Gentleman.

I think we have to accept, when we are looking at the merits of the matter, that when the electors ask, as many of them do, "Why cannot you make up your own minds? We elected you to do the job ", the short answer is, "Because the Labour Government cannot agree, and therefore the nation at public expense is asked to resolve their difficulties ". That is the reason, and it is no good beating around the bush.

We know that the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary will say "Yes ", and that the Secretary of State for Industry, the Secretary of State for Employment, the Minister of Overseas Development and the Secretary of State for Trade will say "No ". They will say respectively "Yes" or "No ", whatever the arguments are, and it will be surprising if the Prime Minister does not announce next week that he has scored a mass