HC Deb 05 March 1975 vol 887 cc1669-729

12.11 a.m.

The Secretary of State for Industry (Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn)

I beg to move, That this House authorises the Secretary of State to pay or undertake to pay by way of financial assistance under Section 8 of the Industry Act 1972 in respect of the business carried on by Norton Villiers Triumph Ltd. sums exceeding £5 million but not exceeding £12.872 million. First I will deal, as a courtesy to the House, with some points raised on points of order over the last day or two by the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine), in order to put them entirely out of mind.

The motion was tabled on 4th November and it was done because, at that time, agreements between Norton Villiers Triumph and the co-operative were nearing completion, but there was anxiety among the workers at Small Heath which led to delay. That delay was cleared by discussions which I shall deal with in the main body of my speech, but as we moved into the New Year, NVT appeared to be nearing the limit which would be required to maintain its production for export.

The points of order raised by the hon. Member for Henley were, as usually is the case, wholly spurious in character, because NVT drew our attention to this matter over a period in a series of letters to me, and then, last week, when I saw them I drew the attention of my colleagues to the need for this motion to be debated urgently. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, as I made clear in the House two days ago, was anxious not to have the motion coming on at a time which was inconvenient to the House and I therefore spoke to him on Monday, as I have said to the House. The motion was put down for debate tonight. That is the basis on which it has been brought forward.

It is not uncommon, as the hon. Member for Henley will know, for a Minister with industrial responsibilities to have to urge that a debate should take place at a time not of general convenience to the House.

Mr. Heseltine (Henley)

Of course, we fully accept what the Secretary of State has to say, but as he phoned the Leader of the House on Monday morning why was it not possible for the House to hear about the business that afternoon?

Mr. Benn

I am describing to the House the events—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—I am describing the negotiations I had with NVT and my contact with my right hon. Friend about the need for the motion to be debated this week—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—That is the position. If hon. Members of the Opposition showed any interest in the industry we are discussing instead of trying to make political capital, the House might make further progress. There has not been a single intervention by the hon. Gentleman or any of his hon. Friends that has shown that they have any concern whatever either for the jobs of the people in the industry or, indeed, for the future of the industry.

Mr. Hugh Fraser (Stafford and Stone)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Benn

I shall give way once or twice.

Mr. Fraser

The only point my hon. Friend was raising is that the right hon. Gentleman showed no interest in the convenience of this House.

Mr. Benn

That is wholly untrue. The order was tabled in November. For the reasons I have given, which are part of the account that I shall be giving in support of the motion, it was necessary for the order to be debated this week. That is manifestly clear. The point I was making, to which I adhere, is that hon. Members of the Conservative Party, throughout the whole of this story, have been principally concerned with what they wrongly believe to be some political advantage accruing to themselves, and not with the industry that we are discussing.

Mr. Churchill (Stretford)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Benn

No, I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman, because he has proved by countless interventions that he is not concerned with the issues that the House is actually debating.

The motion before us tonight is to allow a guarantee for £8 million for NVT, needed to finance its export stock. NVT markets in the United States about two-thirds of its output. The United States market for motor bikes is seasonal and requires an adequate revolving fund. The borrowing level is dependent first upon the level of production and export, and runs at about half the annual rate for export. The banks need an ECGD guarantee or cover for this work, and owing to the uncertainties that there have been surrounding the industry the United States cover, or some of it, has been withdraw, and NVT needs now an extra export guarantee to the extent of the motion before us.

This is the first time that the Industry Act, which we inherited from the previous Conservative Government, has been used to provide a guarantee for exports. The motion is that under the 1972 Act we should provide the necessary guarantees. I might add that though there is a connection—to which I shall come shortly—between the NVT and Meriden position, this is a motion to permit export finance to be made available for NVT itself and not for Meriden as such.

Of course, I only have to remind the House that the support for NVT was made available not by the present Government but by the previous Conservative Government, when under the same section of the Industry Act they made available, and announced nearly two years ago, £4.872 million for the merger of Norton Villiers with part of BSA to produce NVT. One of the intentions behind that merger was to push up production and exportst, and it is these exports that I a mahking the House to support with this motion tonight. That should be made absolutely clear.

I do not know what hon. Members will do at the end of this debate, but I must make it absolutely clear that if the motion is defeated by the House, that defeat will have the following immediate consequences. Anyone inclined to vote against the motion must vote against it conscious of what he is doing.

First, it will mean a shrinkage, a major reduction of exports by NVT—set up by the Conservative Party when it was in power. That would be the first consequence of defeating the order.

Second, it would mean that there would be lay-offs in Birmingham and Wolverhampton in NVT, which would be capable of producing for export but would be denied the necessary export guarantee under the Industry Act. Thirdly, because this is connected with the Meriden arrangements, the availability of money under the Meriden arrangement, to which I shall refer, would not be available for NVT as part of the sale of the assets. In effect, a vote against this motion tonight would do grave damage to the British motor cycle industry

Mr. Tim Renton (Mid-Sussex)

The right hon. Gentleman has just used the words "United States cover has been withdrawn". Could he tell the House what that means and why this cover has been withdrawn?

Mr. Benn

I have dealt with that, but I will amplify it if the hon. Gentleman requires me to do so. Some of the cover that had been available for NVT in the United States—nothing like as much as is now being provided by this motion—was withdrawn owing to uncertainties not unconnected with the events of Meriden, to which I shall be referring. If the hon. Gentleman wants me to read the account by Mr. Poore of the handling of the Meriden matter by the previous Government, I shall be happy to do so. It is not my wish to go into that chapter because I am carrying forward logically support of NVT initiated by the party opposite when they made their initial arrangement.

Now I come to the linkage between NVT and Meriden. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade answered a Question this afternoon about the export provisions for Meriden. This is not covered by this motion. It is being covered under separate arrangements which he announced. But in order to sign agreements, which we hope will be signed tomorrow, between Meriden and NVT, which will bring into production a greater productive capacity for British motor cycles and exports, it is also necessary that this guarantee to NVT made available in this motion should be granted by the House.

Mr. John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling)

Would the Secretary of State say why the Export Credits Guarantee Department has made available £6 million in the way of export credits to cover the output of the Meriden factory which is not producing, whereas export credit guarantee finance has been denied to NVT which is producing?

Mr. Benn

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade dealt with ECGD cover for Meriden in his statement this afternoon. The party opposite made support available for NVT below the £5 million limit. Therefore, the House has never had an opportunity until tonight of debating the support for NVT. We thought it right that if £8 million was to be provided in export credit for NVT, it should be added to the £4.872 million that had been provided by the previous Government and that the House of Commons should have an opportunity of discussing the matter. By doing it in this way—the motion which I have tabled makes it absolutely clear—the £8 million is added to what was given by the previous Government, bringing the amount up to £12.872 million in total. We thought it right that the House should have the opportunity of not merely debating it on the Adjournment but of considering it and deciding it, if necessary—although I hope it will not be necessary—in the Division Lobby tonight.

Mr. Heseltine

The Secretary of State has misunderstood my hon. Friend's question. The question was this. Why is it necessary for the Government to provide £8 million worth of export credit for NVT whereas the finance for export credit for the co-operative at Meriden can be raised from normal commercial export credit sources?

Mr. Benn

But ECGD is a Government agency—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I have answered the question quite clearly—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members must contain themselves. By carrying out this procedure under the Industry Act the House of Commons has had an opportunity of discussing not only the NVT export credit, but the support that was given by the Conservative Government to the company. If there are any further anxieties or questions my hon. Friend the Minister of State will deal with them in winding up the debate. I have explained, therefore, why, as responsible Minister, I urged that the procedure should be carried out under Section 8(8) of the Industry Act.

Mr. Heseltine

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the ECGD office did not refuse to grant this cover which is now being permitted under the Industry Act?

Mr. Benn

The hon. Member must recognise that in reaching decisions of this kind responsible Ministers take decisions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—and then have to defend them in the House of Commons. What the hon. Member has been trying to do throughout his year on the Opposition Front Bench—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—has been to shield behind official advice and pretend that Ministers can only produce the advice that their officials gave them—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] As the Secretary of State I thought it right to bring this matter forward under the Industry Act and to defend my—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."]—action in the House of Commons.

Mr. Heseltine

rose—

Mr. Benn

I will not give way.

Mr. Heseltine

Give way once more.

Mr. Benn

Mr. Deputy Speaker—

Hon. Members

Give way.

Mr. Heseltine

rose—

Hon. Members

Chicken!

Mr. Benn

I will not give way. The hon. Member has had plenty of opportunities to put his questions. He will have the opportunity to speak.

Mr. Heseltine

Give me the opportunity now.

Mr. Benn

No.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton)

If the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to give way he cannot be pressed beyond a certain point.

Mr. Heseltine

Will the right hon. Gentleman be reasonable—

Mr. Benn

I have answered the question put to me—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]—about why I thought it right to bring forward the guarantee under the Industry Act and in that way permit the House to debate NVT's initial support and the export credit guarantee. Under Conservative legislation the House was never permitted to debate the NVT merger. It involved a sum of under £5 million which was announced to the House but was never discussed by the House, and therefore early problems arisings from Meriden, which are fully described in the booklet Mr. Poore has written, were never brought to Parliament.

I now come to the situation which was created by the Government's decision to support NVT. Since so much is made of this perhaps I might refer to what Mr. Poore said about the arrangements made with the Conservative administration. I cannot vouch for it because I have no access to the papers. On page 7 Mr. Poore says: The proposed procedure for announcing the closure was explained to the Industrial Development Unit, who confirmed once more that the company should proceed with the plan as previously agreed and the Department would take care of any political repercussions should they arise. That is to say that it now appears, but was never made clear at the time, that the Government told Mr. Poore that he could close Meriden and Ministers would take responsibility for the political repercussions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] On page 14 Mr. Poore continues: The company was surprised to learn that the Minister was adamant that there should be no recourse to the law and that he, the Minister, would now see what he could do. It appeared later that he had been under considerable pressure from the Department of Employment not to allow the use of any force at Meriden and had been told that the pickets would be able to mass up to 5,000 supporters from the other factories in Coventry who would arrive on the site in coaches within the hour if there were any signs of the use of police! If Mr. Poore's account is correct, first Ministers say "Leave the political repercussions to us" and then, when it discovers that the men at Meriden are serious and have support, the Department of Employment says "Don't do anything by recourse to the law", because of the degree of support.

The story continues at page 19: the NVT directors were, not unnaturally, loth deliberately to go against the express wishes of a Minister of the Crown, although Mr. Poore tried, unsuccessfully, to impress on the Minister and his officials the danger of the course NVT was required to adopt. Then we read on page 20 that high level pressure from the DTI continued to insist that the company must resolve the matter exclusively by negotiation. The words, 'It will be the worse for you if you do' were used when the possibility of recourse to the courts was brought up. I am not confirming what Mr. Poore has said. What I am saying is that he is telling the House, through the pamphlet, that it was the Government that encouraged the closure of Meriden, then said "Leave the political repercussions to us", and afterwards engaged in this secret pressure, which was never reported to Parliament. That was the situation when we inherited the matter last March.

Mr. Hal Miller (Bromsgrove and Redditch)

rose—

Mr. Benn

I am dealing with Ministers, and the hon. Gentleman has not yet reached that position. He will have to wait a minute.

Mr. Nick Budgen (Wolverhampton, South-West)

rose—

Mr. Benn

I am dealing with the Opposition Front Bench.

The hon. Member for Henley was a Minister in the Department of Trade and Industry throughout the period. He had no comments to make then on this basis. He never disclosed to Parliament what pressure was being put on Mr. Poore by the DTI. He never told the House that the arrangement to close Meriden had in a sense been cleared by the Department. He never told the House that he and his colleagues in the Department of Trade and Industry had told Mr. Poore not to worry, because the Government would deal with the problem.

Mr. Heseltine

rose—

Mr. Benn

I will not give way. The hon. Gentleman had better take it.

Mr. Heseltine

rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern)

Order. The hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) knows full well that if the Minister does not give way he must resume his seat.

Mr. Heseltine

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I believe that it is the convention of the House that when an excessive personal attack is launched on a Member he may be allowed at least, as an act of courtesy, to question the remarks being made about him.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to take part in the debate. It is entirely a matter for the Member who has the Floor whether he gives way. My only appeal to hon. Members is to put a silencer on the exhaust.

Mr. Benn

The hon. Gentleman had better wait until I complete what I shall say about him. He will have a chance to follow me in the debate.

I am putting on record that on the basis of the information that Mr. Poore has made available to the House through his pamphlet it becomes clear if the pamphlet is correct—and I cannot vouch for it—first, that the Government supported NVT on the basis of the closure of Meriden; secondly, that they told Mr. Poore that they would deal with the political consequences of the closure of Meriden; and, thirdly, that when Mr. Poore sought to take action through the courts they told him not to do it. All that happened without any report to Parliament.

Mr. Nick Budgen (Wolverhampton, South-West)

rose—

Mr. Benn

I now turn to the present position of—

Mr. Budgen

rose—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. Let us get on. I ask the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) to resume his seat.

Mr. Benn

We have a three-hour debate, and I am sure that other hon. Members want to speak. That being so, I shall leave behind the past and turn to the present.

The present position is that NVT and the co-operative have almost agreed—and I hope that tomorrow an agreement will be completed—the asset sale for the Meriden site and a product sale, plus a marketing link. At a time when the world market for motor cycles is buoyant, that will increase Britain's capacity to produce motor cycles and to sell them abroad. It would be lunatic if the House were to prevent the expansion of that capacity at a time when there is a capacity to produce. The men are ready to produce and the market exists. The Meriden plan is a serious plan and the proposal for a co-operative is one that I strongly recommend to the House.

I now turn to another issue that has been raised by Conservative Members about the view of the Industrial Development Advisory Board. I have been candid throughout in describing the discussions on these matters, and it is the case that the board opposed the proposal for the Meriden co-operative. I said in the House in answer to questions, and I say again, that the board appointed by the previous Government with a job of work to do made a recommendation against the Meriden co-operative, and that the Government, having considered that recommendation, decided that the views of the board could not be decisive. On 29th July I announced in the House that we were ready to support Meriden with £4.95 million—namely, £750,000 in grants and the rest by way of a loan. The overwhelming majority of that sum—that is around £4 million for the co-operative—will go to NVT as a purchase for the factory.

The House will also know that the workers at Small Heath were anxious lest they might be victims of the scheme. I went to Birmingham on 8th November. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell), in their constituency capacities, were very much concerned. The Small Heath workers expressed their anxieties to me at that meeting arising out of the past history of the industry. It was only after the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions had come in and called together representatives of the Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Meriden sites that we were clear to go forward with the passage of this measure.

At one time this country had 60 per cent.—

Mr. Reginald Eyre (Birmingham, Hall Green)

What the work people in Wolverhampton and Birmingham do not understand about this matter, and particularly in terms of the right hon. Gentleman's visit to the factory at Small Heath, is why the necessary measures of finance which have been discussed this evening were not brought forward much earlier, in view of the intense anxiety that developed about employment which has worsened over the months of delay.

Mr. Benn

I do not know what conclusion the hon. Gentleman will draw. I would tell him that I had discussions with the representatives of the workers at Small Heath on this matter as early as June of last year. It was I who gave a pledge that I would not go ahead with this proposal if there were objections from the Small Heath work force. I went to Small Heath personally to satisfy myself as to their views. There was no doubt of the anxieties forcefully expressed to me.

Following that, I took the opportunity to try to get to the bottom of their anxieties and I called in the unions and then met the stewards from the three plants. I hope that the hon. Member for Hall Green will believe me when I say that if I had not been serious in my concern for the anxieties of the Small Heath people, this Meriden co-operative might have come forward many months ago. I think that that is accepted and understood by the Small Heath workers.

Of course I have had representations from them about their anxieties for the future and about their desire for a three-plant solution under public ownership. I have not been able to do more than to say to them that of course any proposals that come forward will be considered. But I believe that the way in which we have handled these matters has shown a proper sensitivity for the legitimate anxieties of the workers in Birmingham. I cannot say more than that.

I was saying that at one time this industry employed 8,500 people and had 60 per cent. of the market in the United States for the superbike. It now employs 2,500 and has only 20 per cent. of the market for the superbike. Without putting blame on anybody, for I see no virtue in that, I believe it to be a great tragedy that this country, which had such a fantastic reputation for motor cycle production and export, should have found itself, for a variety of reasons into which I will not go now, progressively driven out of that market by the Japanese and others. We intend to go back in with the Meriden production. That is our view. The Government are now engaged in further studies of the development of the market world-wide and the extent to which we can fill it.

However, I cannot finish without saying one word about the workers at Meriden who have now been on the picket lines since 14th September 1973, in my judgment victims of a foolish decision taken by the previous Government at the time they launched Norton Villiers Triumph. They have waited for many months and have worked out their scheme and come forward with a scheme that the Government can support.

I genuinely believe that the contribution made by these people to the industry in which they have lived and worked merits the close attention and admiration of the House of Commons. Whatever may be said by Opposition Members about the Government as a Government, I cannot believe that they will fail to recognise that the workers at Meriden have been attached to their industry and want to see it succeed.

If there is a vote tonight against this motion, it will be a vote against employment in an industry for which there is a market and against even the NVT merger that the Opposition promoted. It will be another fatal blow against the British motor cycle industry, which over the years has suffered from the Conservative Party and from the economic philosophy to which it adheres.

12.45 a.m.

Mr. Michael Heseltine (Henley)

As one thinks of those workers on the picket lines at Meriden who have such faith in this project, one wonders whether the faith of the 150 who stayed is not to be compared with that of the 1,600 who took off and got jobs in the neighbouring factories.

It is perhaps indicative of the anxiety that we on this side of the House have about the whole conduct of the Secretary of State for Industry's approach to his responsibilities that he can come to the House tonight and tell us that it is his purpose that we should have an opportunity to debate this whole issue of the motor cycle industry and, therefore, he has contrived, as I understand it, a motion which enables us to examine the export credit finance facilities for Norton Villiers Triumph. It is a curious contrast that he managed to contrive that the £4.95 million for the Meriden co-operative under Section 8 of the Industry Act was £50,000 below the limit at which he would have had to come to the House, and he managed to get away without opening up the matter as he has done on this occasion.

There was a fascinating insight into constitutional history when we heard that I was supposed to have come to the House as Minister for Aerospace and Shipping, and I was supposed to go to the national Press to leak to every meeting I happened to attend the things that my colleagues were doing in full, collective Government responsibility. I wonder how many other members of the present Government really believe that it is the duty of Ministers who hear what their colleagues are doing incidental to their own responsibilities to reveal that information to the Press and to Parliament despite the vows of secrecy that every Minister takes when he enters the Government.

The reality, of course, is that there is one Minister who believes that that is the responsibility of a Minister of the Crown. Do not take my word for that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Take the quotation from the late Mr. Crossman's diaries in which he said that he used to have a high regard for the Secretary of State for Industry until he discovered, every time he was going to a meeting of the Cabinet or of a Cabinet Committee, that the whole of the case that the Secretary of State for Industry was going to plead had been leaked to the Press in advance. If Mr. Crossman's diaries want vindication tonight, they have had it from the Secretary of State for Industry.

The matter we were discussing at that time was the establishment of the IDAB, the board which was set up to advise in all humility the Secretary of State for Industry about his responsibilities in this matter. All that it had to do was to give advice: it expected to be consulted. We are told that the House has been fairly treated—"wholly candid" was the phrase used by the Secretary of State for Industry.

I remember, when the House had adjourned for Christmas and the Parliamentary Press had more or less given up its duties for the Christmas Recess, hanging around the Lobbies and telephoning the Secretary of State's office asking for the Kirby Report to find out what the protest of the IDAB had been. Is that being wholly candid with the House?

In reality, the final act of either delusion or deception was the suggestion that the co-operative could have gone ahead earlier if the Secretary of State for Industry had not cared about the workers in NVT. If the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) had told us this I would have listened with care and attention. He knows, however, that the workers in the Small Heath and Wolverhampton works of NVT would have stopped any attempt to sell the Meriden bicycles through NVT unless their agreement had been achieved. It was not in the hands of the Secretary of State for Industry to go ahead with the co-operative until that agreement had been reached. It was because he fundamentally misjudged the resistance of the right hon. Gentleman's constituents that for 12 weary months this matter has dragged out without coming to the House of Commons.

Let me come to the speech which the Secretary of State for Industry contrived to put into my mouth before I made it. He tries to suggest that if we vote against the motion tonight—

Mr. Dennis Canavan (West Stirlingshire)

"If"?

Mr. Heseltine

I assure Labour Members that I shall not disappoint them. I simply want to lead logically along the lines to the point to which the Secretary of State for Industry tried to steer my speech.

Now, at ten minutes to one o'clock, on the last day on which the money has to be made available, we are told that we have no choice but to make it available. That is supposed to be the full process of parliamentary consultation and the full involvement of Parliament in the scrutiny of taxpayers' money—something which we cannot refuse. Is that the way in which the Government believe that the full parliamentary processes that we used to hear so much about from the Secretary of State for Industry should be made effective on the Floor of the House?

I understand, of course, that if help is not available for NVT within the next two or three days, or the next week or so, there would be calamitous results for the employees in that company. I say at once on behalf of the Opposition that we shall give every parliamentary support to a sensible, practical use of the powers of the Industry Act 1972 to make such cash available to NVT to ensure that no man in that factory is made redundant and so that we may have the time to sort out the mess in which the Secretary of State for Industry has landed us.

The issue ceases to be one of redundancy. There is no question but that the responsibility for the present clamitous state of NVT lies with the Secretary of State for Industry. It must follow, just as it did with the Court Line travellers, that the Bill has to be paid by the Secretary of State. The motion does not simply provide export credit for NVT. It is an instrument by which NVT is subjected to the will of the Government to enter into contractual arrangements with the Meriden Co-operative.

The full cost of this exercise is being deliberately hidden from Parliament by the Secretary of State, both as to the amount involved and the extension of public ownership. The whole process of the past 12 months has brought NVT to a stage where the only practical solution for the company is a degree of public ownership.

The motion was first published on 5th November 1974. Why has it taken four months to come to the House? What possible justification is there for that delay in providing export credit finance? The explanation is that the Secretary of State would not provide that finance until he had persuaded NVT to enter into an agreement to sell the bikes to the co-operative. In other words, the Secretary of State pressurised NVT against its commercial judgment.

Why has the matter become so urgent tonight, after all the 'phone calls, after letters of warning and endless discussions —why so late at night when the national Press is not here to report what is going on? [Interruption.] Hon. Members know as well as I do that the amount of space left in Fleet Street editions at this time of night is limited. The reality is that the agreement was held up until the Meriden agreement was signed. All the assurances given by the Secretary of State to the contrary are phoney.

If that is not the case it is worth asking whether the right hon. Gentleman wrote to his right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs saying that he wished to give a general assurance that nothing in the Government's readiness to support the co-operative had been intended to act to the detriment of the workers at Small Heath. Did he write that and, if he did, how does he square that with the four months' delay that has taken place in bringing about the one thing the workers in NVT wanted, which was the security that came from the export credit guarantee?

It was not simply the use of the export credit finance order that the Secretary of State used to put pressure on the management of NVT. There was the question of the grant from NRDC, applied for by the NVT board to develop a new engine for its motor bikes to strengthen the job prospects of the workers in Wolverhampton and Small Heath. As we have had the "Blue Book" quoted already I will quote from page 27. The House will probably be familiar with the words, when the Chairman of NVT describes the meeting he held with the Secretary of State. He says that the right hon. Gentleman: confirmed that he had been deliberately withholding approval to the proposed NRDC contract in order, as he put it, 'to have something in his corner during the negotiations'. NVT was shocked by this apparent attempt at coercion by an action which was so contrary to the vital need of the industry to develop new products quickly to meet Japanese competition, which was supposed to be one of the Secretary of State's prime concerns.

Mr. Norman Tebbit (Chingford)

Is it true?

Mr. Heseltine

If the words—

Mr. Tebbit

Is it true?

Mr. John Tomlinson (Meriden)

The hon. Gentleman would not recognise the truth if he saw it.

Mr. Heseltine

If the words in the "Blue Book" are open to question as being the opinion of a partial adviser, may I ask the Secretary of State whether he wrote to his right hon. Friend the Minister of State a letter in which he said: The arrangements for research assistance will stand and will continue when the Co-operative has been launched. Did he then, in his own handwriting, go on to say: Once NVT and Meriden reach agreement, Part III of grant quickly available. Did he write that letter? [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] Did that lead the Chairman of NVT to write to the Minister of State a letter on 11th September in which he said: The stewards"— constituents of the Minister of State— have received (I understand from you) an additional communication which indicated that the bar to the NRDC assistance to NVT, which has been described as blackmail, would continue until the Meriden transaction has been legally completed. Yet against this background did the Secretary of State for Industry write a letter on 6th November to the convener of the shop stewards at the Small Heath Works? Did he say in that letter: I can, however, give you the firmest assurance that there will be no discrimination by the Government in favour of the Co-operative"— [Interruption.] It is fascinating to listen to Labour Members when the trade unions are treated with such cynical contempt. When the Secretary of State takes such a view, Labour Members only laugh. In reality, the solidarity of the Left wing of the Labour Party here tonight is more important than the jobs of the workers concerned. That is the first criticism of the motion.

The second criticism is that Parliament—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern)

Order. The House has until only 3 a.m. to discuss this matter. If hon. Members keep yelling at one another, they will become completely exhausted. A large number of hon. Members wish to take part in the debate. Surely we can conduct the debate in a civilised fashion.

Mr. Heseltine

The second criticism of the motion is that Parliament has been consistently misled since the Secretary of State for Industry started off with the process of creating a workers' co-operative. He clearly explained on 29th July that the co-operative would not be given more than £4.95 million. When he was questioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Mr. Stanley) on 28th November, the right hon. Gentleman said that that figure still stood. In reality since that time Parliament has not had the opportunity to probe the matter at all in depth because of action by the Secretary of State. Help to the co-operative was kept below the line so that it could not be probed. But the £4.95 million, which is supposed to be the ceiling above which support was not to go, has been added to. A figure of £8 million is being provided by way of Government support in the way of export credits. In addition, there was the original £5 million given to the motor cycle industry under the previous Government. We are told that a further £6 million will be provided by export guarantee to the co-operative at Meriden. Again, in addition, a further £15 million will be necessary to attempt to make sense of the scheme which the Secretary of State for Industry is now considering.

Why tonight are we not being told about the full financial implications of the commitment? If the Secretary of State for Industry is seriously saying that Parliament is in full possession of the information without making a judgment, he must tell us about the document which is in his hands known as "Plan Y"—a plan which sets out in detail why it will require a sum of £15 million before this industry can be brought anywhere near viability in the next five years.

If Government supporters doubt that, I shall quote the letter written by the Secretary of State for Industry. In writing to the convener of the Small Heath Works, Mr. Checkley, on 6th November 1974, having been asked what the long-term future of the industry was, he said: You will appreciate, however, that I am not today in a position to give you firm undertakings about possible investment on the basis of the long-term plan just presented by the management of NVT. … Moreover, I can further assure you that I shall make every effort to see that new plans suggested by NVT are examined urgently. That was four months ago. How can the Secretary of State for Industry say that he is not in a position to tell us anything about the additional £15 million, which he knows is totally and irreconcilably associated with this provision? The House has not been told the facts, and it is not in a position to make a judgment.

The third area of concern is that the way in which NVT has been treated over the past 12 months has brought that company to a position where it is not able to raise export credit finance because it is now so financially weak that it is not able to attract the support of the normal export credit organisations. That is why they turned it down. That is why the motion is being introduced by the Secretary of State.

There is no point in trying to suggest that some sudden crisis has overtaken the company. The Secretary of State has been warned over the months, and by letter in the last fortnight, of the impending collapse of the company. The company will collapse because the Secretary of State has made it impossible for it to obtain its assets which are tied up in the Meriden operation and without which it is not able to meet the working capital requirements or the levels of production needed to make the factory viable.

We have three main criticisms of the motion. There is a deliberate attempt to squeeze NVT into accepting the co-operative. That has left NVT with no alternative since it is financially too weak to turn elsewhere. Parliament has been deliberately excluded from access to information upon which a realistic assessment could be made.

If the House wishes to understand our anxieties over the coming Industry Bill, hon. Members have only to listen to the words used by the Prime Minister on Merseyside to describe our fears, and then to compare the way in which those fears have materialised in practice in the hands of the Secretary of State for Industry. It was said that there would be an all-powerful Cabinet, the Treasury, and Sir Don Ryder. But where were all these instruments of control while these activities were going on? Why are no Treasury Ministers present to explain where they were when this matter was being debated?

The Secretary of State for Industry deceived his colleagues as much as he deceived the House. Whilst their backs were turned he pushed this decision to the stage where there was no choice but to bring it to the House. Everybody knows that that is the reality. The right hon. Gentleman may be able to fool his colleagues but he cannot fool us.

1.09 a.m.

Mr. John Tomlinson (Meriden)

We have listened to yet another example of the mock hysteria to which the House has been subjected recently. The general understanding earlier was that the Opposition would not even divide on this issue. However, there has been so much pressure from the Opposition back benches that we are forced to ask who is leading whom on the matter.

The hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) has disgraced his own standards of conduct by his performance tonight. The hon. Gentleman's criticisms of the standards of conduct of the people in my constituency, who for the last 18 months have been fighting in the best British traditions for the right to work, struck me as wholly unacceptable.

In the trivia of his argument the hon. Member for Henley asked why no Treasury Ministers were present. Perhaps one of the reasons is that those Ministers must spend their time tonight blocking up those tax evasion loopholes which are sought by his friends.

To go through this exercise of decrying working men who are fighting for the right to work in a viable industry which is vital to our export trade is an abuse of the standards to which we have become accustomed in this place.

On what does the hon. Member for Henley draw for evidence? The tittle-tattle of somebody's diary is one of the main parts of his argument, a vague innuendo about the candour of hon. Members, and complaints that he had to be in the House on a Friday to get information. The hon. Gentleman complains about having to work a five-day week when hundreds of my constituents have been fighting 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for 18 months for the right to work.

The hon. Gentleman has come before this House in an attitude of bawling arrogance and made a whole string of accusations and, to prove himself an intellectual and a man of letters, he has produced letters one after the other.

The real issue is whether we can afford to sustain a three-plant British motor cycle industry. The hon. Gentleman, who talked about my constituents, is but a moped compared with their Bonneville 750 in terms of ability to make a meaningful contribution to anything.

Mr. Leslie Huckfield (Nuneaton)

Mopeds are not allowed on motorways.

Mr. Tomlinson

Indeed. I agree with my hon. Friend who will no doubt expand on that in more detail later.

The Government have brought before the House a motion that everybody knew would be forthcoming. It is an exercise in nonsense to pretend that they are ill-informed and not in a position to make a judgment. The facts have been eloquently put before the House in detail by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry. Unless this money is made available to NVT, we shall be participating in burying not only the employment prospects of a large number of people in the West Midlands, but a vital export earning industry.

Let us make sure that the consequences of tonight's decision are made known to everybody not only in this House, but in the country. I am sure that this House will not fail to pass the motion. It appeared at one stage that hon. Gentlemen opposite would not divide the House on this issue. Then, half way through the speech by the hon. Member for Henley, we understood there had been a reconversion and that they would go into the Lobby. We shall have to wait to see what they eventually decide to do. However, if we go through the Lobbies tonight, I have no doubt that the House will pass the motion because so much depends on it. It affects not only the employment of everybody within the NVT organisation, but possible lay-offs at Wolverhampton and the position at the Meriden co-operative.

We should be clear about the position of the Meriden co-operative. For the first time in our history we have a real example of a large number of people who will be able to resolve the classic conflicts in industry which have been largely responsible for the developing pattern of poor industrial relations. By getting rid of the "them" and "us" argument which has bedevilled industrial relations in industry for a number of years, we are reaching a situation where workers are combining together to own and control their own industry and future.

This is something which has worked successfully in many parts of Europe. West Germany has developed industrial partnership and industrial co-operative schemes. Conservative Members quote West Germany when they criticise our industrial relations, but when it comes to adopting structures which are working in that country and which it would be useful to emulate they do not have the courage of their convictions to move forward and adopt them.

I hope that the House will reject the churlish criticism of the hon. Member for Henley and pass this motion so that tomorrow we shall be able to get the historic signatures to documents that will start the workers' co-operative at Meriden.

People know my feelings about my constituents, but I cannot sit down without saying that over the past 18 months not a handful, not a mere 150, but many of them—people who in the February General Election rejected a Conservative Minister because they were not impressed with his performance—have fought in a way which is a tribute to the best standards which the Government benches have come to expect from the best of the British working class. We are proud of them. We look forward to the motion being carried tonight so that they can get on with their job of producing motor cycles which will benefit everybody in this community.

1.16 a.m.

Mr. Hal Miller (Bromsgrove and Redditch)

I hope that when the Minister replies to the debate he will show a little more courtesy than his right hon. Friend did to a West Midlands Member who has taken an interest in the affairs of this company and who was responsible for ventilating them in the House in an Adjournment debate before Christmas. The Secretary of State must not try to take credit for rehearsing matters which if he had bothered to read Hansard he would have found I had covered in my previous speech.

I hope that when the Minister replies to the debate he will give us some specific replies to questions instead of the evasions that we have had up to now and the evasive replies that were given to me previously.

On the occasion of my Adjournment debate, I said that we had reached Plan 8 of NVT, but we have heard this evening that it has been rechristened Plan Y. We wish to know why. We want to know why this assistance is being made available under Section 8 of the Industry Act. Why could it not be by normal ECGD cover? Is it merely because there is already £6 million ECGD cover earmarked for Meriden which has not even begun output. Why could not that line of credit be used for NVT now?

Why is there this urgency, when the situation has been known to Ministers since last autumn and was raised in the House on a number of occasions in Questions and in an Adjournment debate? Why has this spurious sense of urgency been introduced by the Secretary of State?

Reference has been made to the document to be signed tomorrow. Why should that be said, when NVT signed it on 31st January? May we have an answer to that question? May we be told why NVT was in need of export credit finance? Was it because its American banks withdrew their credit because of the involvement of the Meriden co-operative? Will the Minister give us a reply to that?

Why have we not been told the full cost of the three-factory industry? Those estimates were given in 1973. They may have been updated subsequently; perhaps they are even more than the figures we were told then, but can we be told what they now are, because at that time an additional £15 million of investment was needed at Small Heath to maintain the jobs of the workers there, in tooling and equipment?

That is not all. An additional amount is needed for export finance for the production from that £15 million. Additional finance will be needed for retooling at Meriden, because we have been told that the Bonneville is good only for another two years; so can we be told why we have not been given the full figures of the transaction? Can we, further, know why the NRDC grant has been delayed?

Questions have been asked about this with no satisfactory answer, and reference has been made by my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) to the suggestion that blackmail was being used by the Secretary of State: it was a word used by one of the shop stewards at Small Heath when he paid a visit there. Is it not the case that on his first visit to Small Heath, the Secretary of State left them in such a confused state of mind that they thought that £8 million would be invested in plant and equipment which they needed for their work and that was not merely export finance?

Can we have something more from the Minister on that? Can he explain why in his determination to proceed with this co-operative, he has forced the motor cycle industry of this country to lose two years' exports to the United States of America and two years of development work on the engine, which is likely to place the market in the hands of the Japanese. Will he, further, tell us why a reappraisal of the American market is now needed to show that there will be a future for exports from the three-factory industry, when it is already well-known that the American market is in downturn and that large stocks of Japanese machines are hanging over that market.

Finally, can the Minister, in replying to his hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Tomlinson) tell why those 150 or so pickets could not have work for 18 months when there were so many unfilled vacancies for work in the Coventry area?

Mr. Tomlinson

If the hon. Member does not understand that, he will never understand anything.

Mr. Miller

The hon. Member for Merident (Mr. Tomlinson) said that the facts are clear, but they are far from clear. I hope that the Minister will give the answers which the House and the country have a right to expect.

1.23 a.m.

Mr. Leslie Huckfield (Nuneaton)

If the performance from the Opposition Front Bench was shabby and trivial, it was certainly as synthetic. Tonight we have been dealing with the whole future of what is still a substantial British industry. We have been dealing with the last British motor cycle built in this country.

We have been dealing with the disappearance, or possible disappearance, of skills, which this country has seen gradually receding, with a possible £20 million of exports, and all the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) could concern himself with was when a telephone call had been made and when a letter had been written.

This is a shabby and a synthetic performance and it does the Conservative Party no justice, or credit. I hope that those responsible for the Centre for Policy Studies can do better. The right hon. Lady the new-found Leader of the Opposition the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) goes on television or radio tonight and says that the country needs new leadership, but we shall not get it from the hon. Member for Henley.

Mr. J. W. Rooker (Birmingham, Perry Barr)

It is even more shabby, because since last Thursday, hon. Members have known that tonight we would be debating this motion, because it has been pinned up in the "No" Lobby. The fact that my right hon. Friend forgot to read it is neither here nor there.

Mr. Huckfield

I leave those who have read the recent Bullock report on literacy to draw their own conclusions.

Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Huckfield

I should prefer to make my own points. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, who intends to speak later in the debate, will have a far greater opportunity than I shall have.

I declare my interest in this matter, in that I was one of those who, along with Bill Lapworth, the divisional organiser of the Transport and General Workers' Union in the Coventry area, suggested to workers at Meriden, many of whom are my constituents, that they should attempt to negotiate with Mr. Dennis Poore for the possible formation of a workers' co-operative. That took place in September 1973.

I have always had faith in the viability of this project. I still have faith in it. I still have faith in Triumph motor bikes and in my constituents and those of my hon. Friends and those of hon. Members of the Opposition. Even if Opposition Members do not believe it, at least our constituents believe that their crafts, skills and products have a future.

However, we are not talking merely about making motor cycles. We are talking about a highly important experiment. We are talking about whether men have a right to participate in the decision taking and the management of the companies in which they work. We are talking about a development, an articulation, of a tradition of shop-floor management which has existed in the Coventry area for a long time. We are talking about a very carefully developed strategy which has been evolved over the past 18 months for the management and working of this co-operative and for the marketing of the motor cycles. We are talking about a very carefully evolved plan.

Even if hon. Members cannot accept that this is a carefully evolved plan, why can they not accept that it would cost money in redundancy benefits and social security payments for all the men who would be made redundant if this proposal does not go through tonight than it would cost to keep this experiment in being? [Interruption.]

If the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) has not been listening to what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been saying, he ought to have been.

What is at stake is not merely the jobs of those at Meriden but also the jobs of those at Small Heath and Wolverhampton. I repeat that it would cost more in redundancy payments and social security benefits to cope with the catastrophe which would follow if the motion is not approved than it would cost to see this experiment, I hope, succeed.

We have not heard a word tonight about the run-down of this industry. What has happened to all those famous British names such as Francis Barnett, AJS, Matchless, Royal Enfield and Indian? Why the disappearance of a once-famous British motor cycle industry over the past 20 years?

Are not the new Conservative Opposition at all concerned about this? Do they really want the names of BSA and Triumph to be added almost automatically to this catalogue of run-down, disaster and inefficient management? Do they really want to perpetuate the kind of position started by Sir Bernard and Lady Docker? Do they honestly want to continue down that road until we have no British motor cycle industry at all? Do they want to see the police riding around Westminster on Honda motorcycles, and the police and local authorities having to equip their staff men and workmen with Hondas and BMWs?

That is the kind of thing that we ought to be talking about. Instead of talking about the run-down of the whole industry, all that the hon Member for Henley talks about is when a particular telephone call was made and when a particular letter was written. It was a shabby, trivial and synthetic performance.

I want to pay tribute to my constituents, many of whom have given up everything just because they believe in this particular motor-bike and this particular project. Indeed, if the dedication of the constituents of my hon. Friends and myself to their product was matched or could be matched by the dedication of some of the managements represented by hon. Members of the Opposition—my word! We would not have the balance of payment difficulties, the lame ducks or our chronic record on increases in productivity.

The dedication, fortitude and courage of our constituents who have stood at the picket gate at Meriden is something to be admired not only on the Government side of the House but by the House as a whole and by the people of this country. It is a tribute, and it deserves to go down in history. We were told once upon a time that Mr. Dennis Poore was supposed to be the great white hope of the British motor cycle industry. We were told that he was the only man in this country who could possibly save it.

What has not been referred to tonight is that even after the original closure was announced, the constituents of my hon. Friends and of myself were willing to make any kind of financial sacrifice just to keep the Meriden factory going. They were prepared to agree to a plan of voluntary redundancy. They were willing to agree to a plan for short-time working. They were willing to agree to a plan for work sharing. They were willing to agree to a reduction in the rates they were paid for waiting time when there was nothing to do. Our constituents were willing to make all these sacrifices to keep the industry in being. What sacrifices have Mr. Dennis Poore or the Norton Villiers Triumph management, or hon. Members opposite, been prepared to make to keep the industry in being?

It is interesting to note that not only was the Industrial Development Advisory Board concerned about the strategy of the Meriden co-operative but it was also concerned about the original strategy that Mr. Dennis Poore had provided for the British motor cycle industry. A very interesting fact is that all the economic and financial correspondents of various newspapers who visited Meriden just after the closure expressed even more doubt about the strategy which Mr. Poore had evolved than about the strategy of the Meriden co-operative. It is interesing to note the remarks made by the Industrial Development Advisory Board about Mr. Poore's own plan to try to save the industry.

We have heard various innuendoes about my right hon. Friend's attempts to conceal the real facts of the situation from the House. It is interesting to note some of the comments which were made when an earlier application for money was made. I quote from Hansard of 19th March 1973 when the Minister was asked: Will he bear in mind the fact that the £4.8 million falls tantalisingly short of the £5 million figure which would require to come before the House under the provisions of Section 8 (8) of the Industry Act? Will the right hon. Gentleman represent to the Leader of the House the anxiety in many quarters that we should have a full debate on this topic at the earliest opportunity?"—[Official Report, 19th March 1973; Vol. 853, c. 40.]

Mr. John Biffen (Oswestry)

Hear, hear.

Mr. Huckfield

I am glad the hon. Gentleman cheers, because those were his remarks to the then Minister for Industrial Development, Mr. Christopher Chataway, when he made the original grant of the £4.8 million and he made absolutely sure that the sum was suffisiently under the £5 million limit so that it would not have to be debated in the House.

We were faced with a situation in which this money was given to Norton Villiers Triumph by the previous administration without any kind of guarantees from Mr. Poore. The only condition imposed on the grant of that money was that Mr. Poore was to remain the chairman. There was no consultation with the unions. There was no debate in this House. There was no participation by anybody else involved with the company. The Government were not prepared to put any kind of Government appointee on the board of NVT. Above all, it was all done under exactly the same legislation as that under which we are discussing the matter tonight. What humbug, what hypocrisy, when everything we have been discussing tonight is being done under the legislation and under safeguards which the Conservative Party introduced.

The other matter which hon. Members opposite have not been keen to mention is that the strings that were put on the grant or the loan to the Meriden workers and the strings which were put on this export credit guarantee are far tighter than the strings which were put on Mr. Poore. The previous Government did not put any strings on Mr. Poore. They said he could have £5 million to reorganise the British motor cycle industry. He could spend the money as he wished. They would take care of the consequences.

I can only compare the lack of strings imposed by the Conservative Government with the strict financial controls imposed by my right hon. Friend on the Meriden co-operative and the ECGD guarantee. I visited the United States at the end of 1973 and I returned, after talking to American dealers for one week, with orders for 5,000 motor cycles. I talked to a mere 20 out of more than 450 dealers on a coast-to-coast basis, and I returned with immediate declarations of financial guarantees for more than 2 million dollars. I believe that that kind of market still exists for Triumph motor bikes in the United States.

At the time of closure in 1973 there were outstanding orders for the Meriden factory for more than 2,000 motor bikes for the rest of the world, excluding the United States. While I was in the United States I learnt of the fear of the American motor cycle dealers that they would be completely dominated by the Japanese. They wanted Norton Villiers Triumph to succeed because that would give them at least an element of freedom from Japanese monopoly. When one sees the police in Washington D.C. riding around on Honda motor bikes one can appreciate the domination that American dealers fear. That is why the American dealership network wants the return to the market of the Meriden-made Triumph twin cylinder motor bike.

We are concerned here with a very important experiment. We have a product and an industry which will succeed. The industry can make a very important contribution to the export performance of this country and to the balance of payments. If all the Conservatives can worry about tonight is phone calls, letters and the nitpicking that we had from the hon. Member for Henley, when the whole of this British industry is at stake, I hope that the people of this country, like the House of Commons, will draw their own conclusions.

1.38 a.m.

Mr. Richard Wainwright (Colne Valley)

The opening speeches from the two Front Benches did shamefully little to help the House in its proper task of trying to assert parliamentary control over this large and possibly very useful sum of money. I beg the Minister of State to answer some of the key questions which would at once be asked in any commercial undertaking if the money belong to that undertaking or if it sought the money from the financial institutions.

Of course, the wholly trivial and synthetic uproar about the debate having been allegedly sprung on the House is absolute nonsense. All my colleagues received in their weekly circular from my hon. Friend the Liberal Whip last Friday a clear indication in writing that the debate would almost certainly be held tonight. I am puzzled by the approach of the Secretary of State, however, when in opening he repeatedly indicated that he had intervened in order to have this financial matter so framed that it would give the House an opportunity to have the debate.

Is he saying that he put the company and its workers at risk by framing the matter in this way and that he chose to run the risk of defeat in the House, of which he spoke, in order to provide us with the debate? There is still a mystery in my untutored mind about why he makes this claim and whether he is implying, as it seemed, that there were other ways in which this export credit could have been obtained, but that he intervened to frame it in this fashion. It is still bewildering to me. I hope that the Minister of State will, if it is possible, clear the matter up before the end of the debate.

The question asked by people like me, hon. Members who do not pretend to have experience of this important industry, with its magnificent traditions, is: can we have a proper commercial statement of the prospects for a three-factory motor cycle industry? Can we have a marketing assessment of whether there is a prospect of sustained demand in the United States and of recapturing against extremely powerful competition, with extremely advanced designs and products, almost the extent of the market which we had nearly 10 years ago?

We must report to our constituents on a matter of this sort, because they are now very cynical about the way in which Government estimates of financial requirements are always proved to be grossly under-stated. Therefore, we must have a frank asssessment of the total expenditure likely to be required to give a three-factory industry a chance of being viable. That is the information that the ordinary layman in the House requires. The debate will have been fruitless if we do not get it.

1.42 a.m.

Mr. Ian Gow (Eastbourne)

I begin by examining the Secretary of State's suggestion that in these matters he has treated the House with the utmost candour. In the early hours of Tuesday mornings, when the Leader of the House first told us that we would have the debate this morning, that right hon. Gentleman said: It is because the Chairman of Norton Villiers Triumph has informed us today that this money must be forthcoming this week, otherwise there will be redundancies. This is the first that the Government have heard of the urgency of the matter."—[Official Report, 3rd March 1975; Vol. 887, c. 1227.] That afternoon he said: I have now found that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry met Mr. Poore, the Chairman of Norton Villiers Triumph Ltd., on Thursday of last week. My right hon. Friend telephoned me yesterday from Bristol, and said that this matter must be dealt with this week, otherwise there would be great difficulties in the firm. I pointed out to him the great inconvenience to the House in debating the matter this week. However, he insisted that the matter must be dealt with this week, otherwise there was a danger of redundancies. Therefore, I announced the matter last night."—[Official Report, 4th March 1975; Vol. 887, c. 1275–1276.] If the Secretary of State had his discussion with the Chairman of Norton Villiers Triumph last Thursday, why was it not until Monday that he had his conversation with the Leader of the House? We know that many members of the Cabinet are not on speaking terms with one another, but one would have thought that it would be possible to deal with the matter earlier if it was of such urgency, between last Thursday and Monday.

Secondly, I wish to quote with approval the following passage from page 36 of the "Blue Book": if there is to be a system wherein public money is to be used, … then the administration and control which follows this investment must be divorced from any subsequent political pressure from the Ministry concerned with that industry. It is precisely because from the present Secretary of State there will inevitably be great political pressure that my hon. Friends and I will vote against the motion. I