MEMBERS' INTERESTS

§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short)

I beg to move, That, in any debate or proceeding of the House or its committees or transactions or communications which a Member may have with other Members or with Ministers or servants of the Crown, he shall disclose any relevant pecuniary interest or benefit of whatever nature, whether direct or indirect, that he may have had, may have or may be expecting to have.

§ Mr. Speaker

Order. I propose to the House, as a necessary consequence of the Business Motion which has just been agreed to, that all three motions relating to Members' interests should be discussed together. The other motions are: That every Member of the House of Commons shall furnish to a Registrar of Members' Interests such particulars of his registrable interests as shall be required, and shall notify to the Registrar any alterations which may occur therein, and the Registrar shall cause these particulars to be entered in a Register of Members' Interests which shall be available for inspection by the public. and That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the arrangements to be made pursuant to the Resolutions of the House this day relative to the declaration of Members' interests and the registration thereof, and, in particular:

1. (a) what classes of pecuniary interest or other benefit are to be disclosed;
2. (b) how the register should be compiled and maintained and what arrangements should be made for public access thereto;
3. (c) how the resolutions relating to declaration and registration should be enforced;
4. (d) what classes of person (if any) other than Members ought to be required to register;

and to make recommendations upon these and any other matters which are relevant to the implementation of the said Resolutions: That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; to report from time to time; and to report from time to time the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them: That the Committee do consist of Fourteen Members: That Five be the Quorum of the Committee: That the Committee shall report to the House, within the shortest reasonable period, their recommendations, especially with regard to paragraphs (a), (b) and (c). 392 It will be in order to refer to any of the points raised in any of the amendments which have been put down.

As to the selection of amendments, for the purpose of putting the Questions which I am required to put not later than 11 o'clock, I would inform the House that I have selected the amendments to the first and third motions standing in the name of the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior).

They are to the first motion, to leave out from 'disclose' to end and add 'any pecuniary interest or benefit of whatsoever kind which in his judgment would be regarded by the House as relevant to the matter under consideration'. and to the third motion, to leave out from 'consider to' the said Resolutions 'and insert 'a Register of Members' interests either voluntary or compulsory and recommend—

1. (a) what class of pecuniary interest or other benefit should be disclosed;
2. (b) how the register should be compiled and maintained and what arrangements should be made for public access thereto:
3. (c) how, if the registration of Members' interests is to be compulsory, this should be enforced;
4. (d) what classes of person (if any) other than Members ought to be required to register;

and to make recommendations upon these and any other matters which are relevant'. The amendment to the third motion, however, is clearly intended to suggest an alternative course to the second motion. Therefore, I would make it clear that if the second motion is agreed to, the amendment selected to the third motion will fall and cannot be called.

§ Mr. Michael English (Nottingham West)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure what my right hon. Friend will wish to say, but it seems to me that some of the amendments that you have not selected could conceivably have been selected. My right hon. Friend would not be precluded from accepting an amendment if it was one that you had not selected, would he?

§ Mr. Speaker

That is a matter for the right hon. Gentleman. We shall deal with that situation should it arise.

I add that many right hon. and hon. Members wish to catch my eye. Therefore, I hope that there will be moderation in the length of speeches.

§ Mr. Short

The subject that we are to debate today is one which in recent years, both before and since the publication of the 1969 report of the Select Committee on Members' Interests, has been discussed at great length almost everywhere except on the Floor of this House. I hope, therefore, that it is common ground on both sides of the House that it is right that this extremely important and sensitive issue is before the House today in clear terms and that on a free vote on both sides of the House we can at last come to a conclusion in the matter.

Generally speaking, the question whether hon. Members should have outside financial interests has not been an issue in these discussions. I know that some hon. Members feel that we should not have outside interests of any kind. But that is not, I think, a view at present shared by the House as a whole.

In any case, and I make it quite clear, it is not in issue today. The issue today is not whether Members should have outside interests, but whether and how we should make them known to our colleagues and to our constituents.

Some people take the view that there is nothing improper in a Member having outside interests as long as those interests are made known publicly. Others take the view that they should be declared only when some action is taken by a Member to further those interests.

Increasingly it has been felt that what is needed is not only declaring them in public debate, dealings with Departments, and so on, but making them known to the House as a whole and to the general public whether action to further those interests is taken or not. If that is done, a Member then has a complete protection against any unfair allegations or innuendos which might be made against him.

This has been the philosophy behind the long series of discussions between the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) and myself, and I should like to express my gratitude for the way in which the right hon. Gentleman conducted these discussions when he was Leader of the House. I am also grateful for the very useful discussions which I have had subsequently with his right hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Atkins) and with the hon. Member for Roxburgh, 394 Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel). The motions that I and my right hon. Friends have tabled are rather different from the common ground that we were able to reach in those discussions, for reasons which I know the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen understand and which I hope to make clear later in my speech.

In addition to the discussions which I have had with the Opposition parties, I have had valuable discussions with the Public Relations Consultants Association and the Institute of Public Relations. I am grateful to their representatives for the help they have given. Both bodies either have or are planning to have public registers which they would be willing to make fully available to the House in whatever way we think appropriate. I believe the House could well find these registers of considerable value. I am sure that if the House decides tonight to set up the Select Committee that we are proposing both bodies could give extremely useful evidence to it.

I should now like to outline very briefly the proposals on which we invite the House to come to a decision. The first motion relates principally to the verbal declaration by Members of relevant financial interests when they intervene in debate or other proceedings. As those hon. Members who have vainly sought guidance in Erskine May on this point will have discovered, there is at present virtually nothing in the way of formal rules or procedures to guide Members in this matter. I notice that my Labour predecessor as Leader of the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart), once referred to this guidance as marked by narrowness, imprecision and extreme brevity ". The early nineteenth century ruling of Speaker Abbot, and its later interpretations, that a Member having a direct pecuniary interest must abstain from voting, is of course well established. I emphasise that that well-established rule refers only to voting.

But the practice with regard to the declaration of interests during proceedings, as distinct from voting, rests only on an extremely vague, ill-defined convention. I believe the only declaration as to personal interest which the rules of the House specifically require a Member 395 to make is to disavow any personal interest in an opposed Private Bill.

As hon. Members know, however, a convention—it is only a convention—has grown up in comparatively recent years for hon. Members to declare any direct pecuniary interest when they intervene in debate. As a Deputy Speaker said in 1956: If there is a direct pecuniary interest, an hon. Member declares his interest; otherwise it is not necessary."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 24ith July 1956; Vol. 557, c. 358.] The first motion now before the House is identical with the first recommendation of the Select Committee of 1969 under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss).

It would clarify and also extend the present convention. In the first place, it makes it clear that the convention should extend to all proceedings here and not only to debate on the Floor —that is to say, that it would extend to all Committee proceedings, and not merely to Standing Committees; and to Question Time. Secondly, it extends the practice of the declaration of Members' relevant pecuniary interests to cover all dealings between Members themselves and between Members and Ministers or officials. Thirdly, it amplifies the range of potentially relevant interests to include other benefits—for example, gifts or free hospitality—besides simply pecuniary benefits.

§ Sir Harmar Nicholls (Peterborough)

Perhaps inadvertently, the right hon. Gentleman is giving the impression that what he calls a convention did not work. In practice, whether it is a convention or not, it is a fact in the recollection of most of us here that interests have been declared, both on the Floor and in Committee. Whatever may be the outcome of what is laid down in future, we should be fair to the past and, in being fair to the past, it should be said that the House has operated honourably, effectively and honestly by what is now called a convention.

§ Mr. Short

That is a point to be made by the hon. Gentleman in debate, if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker. The point that I made was that there was a clear rule about voting. There is a convention—a very vague convention—which 396 has grown up in recent years about declarations of interest.

Finally, the first motion makes clear that a Member is expected to declare past and expected as well as present interests if they are relevant. I believe that up-to-date, comprehensive and clear rules in this matter are long overdue and will be of considerable assistance to Members who are uncertain at present in what circumstances their relevant interests should be declared, and who may in some instances even be deterred by this uncertainty from participating in debates to which they might have a valuable contribution to make.

The right hon. Member for Lowestoft has tabled an amendment to this motion whereby the individual Member himself would be left as the sole arbiter of whether a particular interest was relevant. I have some sympathy with this approach, but 1 think that in any case of doubt the final criterion must be the objective judgment of the House as a whole and not of the hon. Member. That is a matter for the House to consider, and we all have a free vote tonight.

The right hon. Gentleman's amendment goes on to propose that the motion should no longer make it clear that such relevant interests could be in the past, the present, or the future and could be direct or indirect. I believe this guidance would be useful to Members.

I realise that some hon. Members may have some reservations about the inclusion of past interests in the first motion dealing with the declaration of interests. But I think there might be fairly general agreement that if, for example, a Member were to be speaking or writing to a Minister, say, about the affairs of a company of which he had until a few days previously been a director, he ought to declare that fact. But to take another extreme example, no one would normally think it relevant to declare an interest given up many years previously. It is a question of balance which can, I am sure, be left to the good sense of the House. I emphasise that I am talking about the declaration of interest, not about the register.

I now turn to the motions—clearly much more controversial—for the establishment of a compulsory register of Members' pecuniary interests. What the 397 Government are proposing in this matter is twofold. First, we are proposing to the House that it should endorse the principle of the establishment of a compulsory register of Members' interests. Secondly, that the major questions of scope and enforcement of such a register, and the practical arrangements for access and custody, should be remitted to a Select Committee of the House for urgent consideration.

I hope that it will be possible, if these motions are agreed, for the Select Committee to report its recommendations with regard to a Members' register in time for a further debate to take place before the House rises for the Summer Recess.

§ Mr. Anthony Fell (Yarmouth)

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that Declaration No. 3 qualifies Declaration No. 1?

§ Mr. English

No. 2.

§ Mr. Fell

With respect, I wish to know whether Declaration No. 3 qualifies Declaration No. 1, which states Members' interests (Declaration) (No. 1)"— [Interruption.] I am reading what is stated on the Order Paper. Is the right hon. Gentleman with me so far?

§ Mr. Speaker

Order. If the hon. Gentleman were not given so much help, we might get on more quickly.

§ Mr. Fell

I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman is sympathetic to me so far. I am dealing with Declaration No. 1, which states that a Member shall disclose any relevant pecuniary interest or benefit … that he may have had, may have or may be expecting to have". If Declaration No. 3 is passed, will it qualify Declaration No. 1?

§ Mr. Short

Declaration No. 1 is about (he declaration of interests on the Floor of the House, or in a Committee, or when Members are dealing with each other or officials. Declaration No. 3 sets out the matters which we propose to ask the Select Committee to consider. Therefore, No. 3 does not qualify No. 1, but I imagine that if there were an allegation of a breach of No. 1, the House would be guided by whatever the Select Committee might propose should be included in the register. That would be a matter for the House.

§ Sir Michael Havers (Wimbledon)

Motion No. 3 states: That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the arrangements to be made pursuant to the Resolutions of the House this day relative to the declaration of Members' interests and the registration thereof … Therefore, the Select Committee would have to advise the House both on the declaration and on the register.

§ Mr. Short

The first motion is about declarations. The third is about the terms of reference of the Select Committee. One of the terms of reference is to do with the content of the register. I am sure that this would guide the House in deciding whether there had been a breach of the obligation to declare under the first motion.

There is increasing public concern and anxiety about these matters, a great deal of which has been generated by the Press. Because of this, there is a need for Members to have better opportunities to protect themselves against allegations of concealed financial motivation.

As a result, we believe that the balance of advantage for the House has now swung decisively in favour of the establishment of a register of Members' interests. If this is to command public confidence, it clearly must be a compulsory register. The long-term disadvantages to the House and its reputation of not establishing such a register are, in our view, more important than the minor imperfections and inequities that may arise. I believe that no register is likely to be fully comprehensive in its scope, or wholly fair between Members, nor will it be proof against the occasional Member who may deliberately seek to evade the rules of the House.

§ Mr. Fell

Surely, if the House agrees to Motion No. 1, Motion No. 3 becomes completely irrelevant.

§ Mr. Short

Motion No. 1 deals with the oral declaration of one's interests in any proceedings on the Floor of the House or in Committee. Motion No. 3 sets out the terms of reference for a Select Committee to advise the House on the content of a register, how it can be made compulsory, on sanctions and on the mechanics of access to and custody of the register. They deal with quite different points.

399 We believe that any disadvantages of the kind I mentioned are now clearly outweighed by the need to reassure the public that we as a Parliament are doing all we can to allay public anxiety in this matter and that, in order to do so, we must collectively recognise that we are prepared to pay the price by giving up a certain amount of our privacy in these matters. That is greatly to be regretted, but it is the case today. Having arrived at that conclusion, the Government had to consider how best to proceed.

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already announced the Government's intention to establish a Royal Commission on the whole subject of the standards of conduct in public life, but although the work of the Royal Commission may touch on aspects of Members' contacts with official bodies, it seems clear that parliamentary codes of conduct must remain matters for Parliament itself and not for the Royal Commission.

Secondly, as a Government we might have to put our own detailed proposals for a compulsory register to the House. We take the view that these are essentially House rather than Government matters. They affect all hon. Members personally as well as the House collectively. They are intensely personal, and there is room for genuine and deeply felt differences of opinion on both sides of the House.

We decided therefore—and this is the subject of the third motion—to recommend the establishment of a Select Committee from both sides of the House to give urgent consideration to the way in which the decision in principle to establish a compulsory and public register of Members' interests should be put into practical effect. The Select Committee would consider what types of interest should be registrable, how the register should be kept and what sanctions, whether legislative or procedural, should be applied if the provisions of the register are not observed.

No one who has ever looked into this problem—and no one realises this better than the right hon. Member for Lowestoft and myself—will underestimate the task before the Select Committee. If any hon. Member does not already know the difficulties in the way 400 of defining an interest, I am sure that there will be speakers in the debate who will be only too ready to point them out to him. The difficulty lies in defining the range of registrable interests in a way which is enforceable; in a way which is as fair as possible between Members with differing types of interests and which sets an acceptable balance between the need to achieve a degree of openness about our financial affairs, on the one hand, and on the other hand will not make unjustifiable inroads into the personal privacy of Members of Parliament.

I believe that it would be wrong and not in the best interests of Parliament to strip Members of all their privacy in this matter. Hitherto, the problems of the balance of definition have been thought to outweigh the merits of a register. That was the conclusion of the Select Committee of 1969. After an extremely full consideration of the subject, the conclusion reached by the Select Committee was that a register of financial interests was simply not on—the Select Committee left no doubt about that—and that all that could be done was for the House to adopt a very generalised code of conduct, the first half of which is the first motion. Thus, I fully recognise the difficulties, especially of definition, to which the previous Select Committee and others have drawn attention over the years, but those difficulties can no longer be regarded as decisive.

If, as I believe, the right hon. Member for Lowestoft would prefer us to go for a voluntary register, I think that he will acknowledge that in practice such a register would be virtually compulsory. Given the present mood of the House and of public opinion, no Member in practice could fail to take advantage of the opportunities to register his outside interests without running a risk of incurring severe criticism.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell the House whether the Opposition would expect all Members to register their interests, or whether they would regard it as acceptable for any hon. Member to decline to do so if the register were voluntary. I would certainly regard it as unacceptable for any Member to decline to make use of the register. If that were the general view of the House, we should face it clearly and unequivocally by passing the second motion.

401 Equally, we need further carefully considered advice from the Select Committee before we come to a view on the detailed make-up of the register. Hence, the proposal for a Select Committee to consider that. In that way—which I think is the right way—the House can finally decide the details of the register on the basis of recommendations made by an experienced House body and not solely on the basis of the Government's thinking.

If, as I hope it will, the House accepts the second motion, you said, Mr. Speaker, that you would not then select the Opposition amendment to the third motion. If, on the other hand, the House were to reject the second motion, the Opposition amendment would provide the opportunity for a Select Committee to advise on the establishment of either a voluntary or a compulsory register, and in those circumstances I would advise the House to accept the Opposition amendment.

There is little further that I wish to say, but I should like to refer to one aspect of the Select Committee's terms of reference.

§ Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater)

The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Opposition view of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior). I hope that there is no Opposition view. I understood that we were here as back benchers to consider a matter which affects the whole House.

Is it fair to hon. Members to ask them to express a view on the second motion before they know what kind of register there will be? That is a genuine matter of concern to many hon. Members. It is neither logical nor fair to consider the second motion before knowing the outcome of the third.

§ Mr. Short

The register would not come into operation until the House had debated the matter further. Motions would have to be put down giving effect to the Select Committee's report. There would be an opportunity, therefore, for debate. Certainly the second motion would commit the House to the principle of a compulsory register.

There is another aspect of the Select Committee's terms of reference. The House will have noted that it is proposed 402 that the Select Committee should be able to consider whether any classes of persons other than Members should also be required to register their interest in the parliamentary register. This is a reference to the point of view expressed by a great many Members and others outside that, for example, parliamentary journalists, candidates, or close relatives of Members of Parliament should also be required to register.

§ Mr. David Gibson-Watt (Hereford)

Did the right hon. Gentleman refer to close relatives of Members of Parliament? If he did, he must be talking out of the back of his head.

§ Mr. Short

If the hon. Gentleman reads the third motion, he will see that it says that the Select Committee should consider … what classes of persons (if any) other than Members ought to be required to register. I am saying that the Select Committee will be free to consider any class of persons.

In recent months, a great many hon. Members and people outside the House have expressed the view that parliamentary journalists, candidates, spouses and children of hon. Members should be required to register their interests. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am not expressing an opinion, but I am saying that the Select Committee should have the opportunity to discuss these matters.

§ Mr. John Lee (Birmingham, Handsworth)

While my right hon. Friend is listing those categories, does he not agree that it is important that members of the other place should be included?

§ Mr. Short

There is a constitutional problem involved in that suggestion, but if my hon. Friend looks at the terms of reference for the proposed Select Committee, he will see that they would enable it to consider any other class of persons. Perhaps we should leave the constitutional point to the Select Committee.

It is right that these important issues should be fully examined by the Select Committee. However, I should like to make it clear that I do not think that this particular aspect of its inquiry has the same urgency as does the question of how a compulsory register of Members' interests should be established. The House will note that in its terms of reference 403 the Select Committee has been asked to give a degree of priority to the consideration of the matters directly affecting Members.

The Government fully recognise that this is above all a House of Commons matter. I understand that the matter will be decided on a free vote on both sides of the House. We propose that the arrangements for a compulsory register should be devised urgently by a Select Committee, but it will be by the House itself, and not by the Government—and I hope that it will happen before the Summer Recess—that these recommendations will be debated and decided.

Nevertheless, I believe that we as a Government would be failing in our duty to give a lead—a lead which the House has a right to expect—if we had not tabled motions expressing our belief that the establishment of a compulsory register of Members' pecuniary interests is the best course for the House to adopt. I therefore hope that the motions will be endorsed, and that the views expressed in this debate will help the proposed Select Committee in its difficult task of filling in the details and of devising a compulsory register which is practicable, fair, effective and which, above all, commands public confidence. If the three motions are passed, I am confident that they will prove to be in the best interests of the House as a whole and of hon. Members individually.

§ Mr. David Price (Eastleigh)

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why the first motion on declaration of interests is limited to pecuniary interests? The right hon. Gentleman will see on the Order Paper an amendment in my name and in the names of some of my hon. Friends to leave out the word "pecuniary" since we believe that it narrows the issue. There are a number of interests which may affect hon. Members which should be declared in certain debates. I am thinking for example of religious interests.

§ Mr. Short

That is a matter which no doubt the hon. Gentleman will develop in greater detail if he has the opportunity to take part in the debate. I should perhaps inform him that we are adopting the wording of the 1969 Select Committee report.

§ Mr. James Prior (Lowestoft)

I beg to move, to leave out from 'disclose' to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof: 'any pecuniary interest or benefit of whatsoever kind which in his judgment would be regarded by the House as relevant to the matter under consideration'. This amendment is tabled entirely on behalf of my hon. Friends and myself and in no way commits the Opposition side of the House to any policy at all. Everybody on this side of the House—and I understand that this applies to the Government benches, too—will decide this matter on a free vote,

I thank the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House for his speech, which was expressed in very moderate terms. I hope that my speech, too, will be fairly moderate, although I may have one or two harsh things to say about parts of the compulsory register or indeed any register at all and people's attitudes towards it.

Undoubtedly there has been increasing anxiety among the public that people in public life have been using their position for lobbying purposes. These claims have been fanned by certain people, particularly by those who wish to undermine the reputation of Parliament and those who serve it. I wish first to examine how much lobbying goes on and how effective it is. Without in any way wishing to discount the position and influence of a Member of Parliament, I think one should make it clear that an hon. Member as such has no opportunity whatever to influence the letting of a Government contract and therefore can have no financial interests in it. In my experience as a Minister, the letting of contracts was very much a matter for the Civil Service and a Minister would be informed only if he specifically requested information about a particular contract. The opportunity for corruption in its broadest sense, as the public know about it, is nil. Anybody who thinks otherwise does not understand how our system works. One headline that appeared in the Press ran: PR Man says 20 to 30 MPs are bendable". I wonder who is fooling whom—probably a very gullible PRO or Press man.

However, general policy and broad publicity can fall into a different category.

405 Some hon. Members are known to have been paid to represent the views of foreign Governments, others to put the case for a particular industry. Undoubtedly the client concerned at the time was hoping that his agent would influence the House and perhaps be able to put over a more favourable point of view than otherwise would be the case. Those Members generally become known to the Government, they often become known to other Members of this House, and I think that it would be much better if they were openly known and their interests declared. The first motion seeks to do just that. In fact, I believe that this should always have been the custom of the House and is for the convenience of the House. In a number of cases I would hope and expect that such disclosure would stop that interest, and I have good reason to believe that it would.

I come to the terms of the motion. I do not particularly like the wording adopted by the Government. I know that it was suggested by the original Select Committee, but it seems to me to go far beyond what is required. Why do we have to spell out the words, may have had, may have or may be expected to have Much of the motion must be totally irrelevant, could be misleading and could involve a breach of privacy which we would regard as quite intolerable. I prefer to place more emphasise on the word "honourable" before a Member's name, and that is why we seek to introduce the concept "in his judgment". I think that it is far better to leave these matters as far as we can to the judgment of an hon. Member.

§ Mr. English

The right hon. Gentleman used the word "irrelevant". Surely under the wording of the Government motion that is exactly what the situation cannot be, because the motion says that the interests a Member may have had, may have or may be expecting to have must be a relevant pecuniary interest or benefit". I do not think the right hon. Gentleman can stretch "relevant" to include the use of the word "irrelevant".

§ Mr. Prior

That may be correct—but who is to judge? One of the troubles in this whole matter is the concept of who is to judge what is a "relevant" interest. An interest possessed many years ago may appear to the hon. Member concerned to have no relevance, but to a Press man or to another hon. Member in a different part of the House it may appear to have some relevance.

§ Mr. Fell

May I draw my right hon. Friend's attention—[Interruption.] I am sorry. My right hon. Friend has given way to me—[Interruption.] I rise on a point which I believe to be of some substance—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas)

Order. Let us not have any private arguments. The public one is enough.

§ Mr. Fell

It still appears to me from a reading of Motion No. 3—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Perhaps Government supporters who do not want to think about this before voting on it will listen. It reads: That a Select Committee be appointed to consider the arrangements to be made pursuant to the Resolutions of the House…. It does not say "Resolution No. 1" or "Resolution No. 2 ". It says "Resolutions of the House". Then it goes on to say what should be done about them. It is clear from Motion No. 1 that the Committee could nullify completely what is said in the amendment to the motion suggested by my right hon. Friend because, if the Committee comes to a decision on paragraph (a) which deals with the classes—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order.

§ Mr. William Hamilton (Fife, Central)

Send for a doctor.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) will try to get into the debate. Interruptions should be as brief as possible.

§ Mr. Fell

With respect, I am asking for an answer on this point, and it will avoid my having to make a speech if I can get an answer. Paragraph (a) of Motion No. 3 says which classes of pecuniary interest or other benefit are to be disclosed. If I am not mistaken, that refers to Motion No. 1—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. It seems to me that the hon. Member for Yarmouth is making a speech. Mr. Prior.

§ Mr. Prior

I do not want to give a long reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell). In any event I am not certain that it is my job to do so. But he has a point. I am certain from my reading of Motion No. 3 that it deals with Motion No. 1. In our amendment, we seek to exclude the consideration of No. 1 by the Select Committee. I think that my hon. Friend is on to a point, although I should like my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Sir M. Havers) to deal with it more fully when he winds up the debate.

I turn to whether Members of Parliament should have outside interests at all. There are some Members who believe that we should be full-time Members with no outside interests—presumably not even fees from television or anything like that. There are some Members who make a very good living out of raising a bogus issue and then getting on television to talk about it. So a good deal would need to be declared on this subject by those who say "Hear, hear" most loudly when it is suggested that Members should have no outside interests.

There are some Members on the Left wing of the Labour Party who regard this whole exercise as one of creating a full-time House of Commons. By stirring up malice or envy towards those who have outside interests, they seek to bring pressure to bear on Members to give them up.

I have a quotation from a recent speech by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department. He begins his handout by saying: One day Parliament may be prepared to resolve once and for all the matter of Members of Parliament's outside interests by insisting that they are full-time professionals, properly paid and serviced at Westminster and in their constituencies, with any form of outside income totally banned. We know how the hon. Gentleman stands.

In the final paragraph he says: I am sure Labour Members of Parliament would back a compulsory register of Members of Parliament's interests. It would undoubtedly mean the loss of some able and talented people from public life but it would be elitist arrogance to suggest that any one of them is 408 indispensable or that Parliament would be an inferior place without them. If ever there were elitist arrogance, that statement is it.

This is a contemptible piece of humbug by the hon. Gentleman. Apart from its other unpleasant manifestations, it seeks to suggest that Members who have no outside interests are those, and those alone, who do the work in Parliament and that the rest of us are passengers or hangers-on. That is emphatically not the case and, as we all know, some who protest the loudest about the fact that they have no outside interests are the Members quite often the most conspicuous by their absence from this place.

I believe that the wealth of outside experience available to this House is perhaps one of its greatest strengths—

§ Mr. E. Fernyhough (Jarrow)

The right hon. Gentleman should not base his case upon innuendo. If he makes charges of that kind about Members who shout about other people and who do not do their own work here, he should name them. Let the right hon. Gentleman name those Members with no outside interests who do not do their work here.

§ Mr. Prior

I thought that I was voicing, though perhaps not expressing it so well, the view that the Patronage Secretary voiced the other day at a meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party. But perhaps the report which emanated from that meeting was not entirely accurate. I see no reason why I should go any further than the right hon. Gentleman went on that occasion.

As a preparation for Government, the experience gained by Members before becoming Ministers is of great value. Some large, forward-looking companies like to employ potential Ministers or Members —of any party—in order to give them experience of the problems faced by industry.

Again, I have never been one who has thought that our learned Friends in this place are always right, but, if we did not have their expertise and it was not kept up to date by their practise of it, they would not be able to play a full part in this House and it simply would not be able to work. That is particularly true of the time when a party is in opposition.

§ Mrs. Audrey Wise (Coventry, South-West)

If the right hon. Gentleman is advocating the presence of part-time Members in this House, does he agree that any part-time Member should forgo some of the full-time parliamentary salary on which some of us have to live?

§ Mr. Prior

That makes my case absolutely. That is a remark of such prejudice and such ignorance about the way in which Parliament works as to show exactly the problem that we get into when we involve ourselves in this matter.

§ Mr. Prior

I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman at the moment. I must get on with my speech. I said that I should have some fairly rough things to say, and I have said one or two of them. I do not want to be provoked too much by anyone—

§ Mr. Atkinson

The right hon. Gentleman is answering his own argument in his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise). A little earlier he said that in preparation for being a Minister or going into a period of office as a Minister, it was a good idea that a Minister should have no outside interests and that his would be a full-time job as a Minister having no outside interests. If that is the case, some of his right hon. and hon. Friends will object to that. But surely this is the case. A Minister cannot have outside interests, because it is assumed that he is doing a full-time job. My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-West made the point that the logic—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I must point out that I have a very long list of right hon. and hon. Members who wish to speak. Once a point has been made, I hope that whoever has the Floor will be allowed to get on with his speech.

§ Mr. Prior

I shall move on from that point.

We are often accused in this place of being remote and removed from reality. How much truer that would be if we were all, in the words of the hon. Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise), full-time MPs. A wide variety of interests leads to a varied group of characters 410 and personalities, and Parliament would be a poorer place without them. It would be a second-rate or third-rate Parliament and a much less independent Parliament. It would mean that the Whips were on top or that the party caucus was on top. Let us be under no illusions about that. I for one would not wish to continue in a Parliament of that nature— not that that would be of interest to anyone but myself.

Should the public know of our outside interests? My answer, strictly speaking, is "No". Why should they? There is no opportunity for corruption, and precious little opportunity for influence, and in any case Motion No. 1 would make that declarable. But having said that, one must recognise the concern which has been built up outside Parliament and the annoyance which innuendo and unfair imputation causes to hon. Members.

If I favoured a voluntary register, 1 was asked, would it not, in fact, become almost compulsory? I think it would, but it would be up to the individual Member if he wanted to stand against this and to say to his constituents quite plainly that he was not prepared to take part in the register. That would be for him to decide—and his constituents and the rest of the nation could draw conclusions.

We are not crooks and we want it to be seen that we are not crooks. We are in the public eye, and we hold jobs which in the eyes of the public are very important. I am certainly entirely happy that the public should know my interests. I will volunteer the information, but if I were told to give the information under compulsion, it would make no difference to me. But whichever way I might want to evade giving information, for good or bad reasons, as the Select Committee pointed out in paragraph 78, it can be done.

I turn to what is an interest. The right hon. Gentleman dealt with this a little. Some categories are easy to define, such as any paid appointment or employment, directorships, sponsorships, consultancies or regular professional or business activities. But what about shareholdings or debts? What about bank overdrafts? Perhaps at times such as the present one could be subject to more pressure in that respect than at any other time—I speak here with a certain personal experience.

411 There are without doubt immense practical difficulties. That is why I favour the voluntary approach. I recognise that voluntary can quickly slide into compulsory as a result of the pressures of public opinion. However, these are all considerations for the Select Committee to examine. If the Committee can define interests precisely, then a compulsory register could be the right answer. Surely it is wrong that we should commit ourselves to a course of action as suggested in Motion No. 2 before we have any idea whether it is workable and what the Select Committee is able to recommend.

It must be right, bearing in mind the difficulties which the 1969 Select Committee found, and those difficulties that the parties have found and have expressed in considering these matters in the last year or so, to await the deliberations of the Select Committee before reaching a final decision.

I understand the reasons for Motion No. 2, but it bears all the hallmarks of a decision under pressure in order to meet the outcry of the moment. It would be much better if this motion were withdrawn for the time being, and for us to wait until the Select Committee has reported and then to reach a decision.

§ Mr. Phillip Whitehead (Derby, North)

Surely the whole point is that Motion No. 2 will set the terms of reference for the Select Committee and that it will prevent it from reaching such supine conclusions as did the Select Committee in 1969?

§ Mr. Prior

That is one way of endearing oneself to one's hon. Friends, but I would not say that that was fair. The amendment which I have put down gives the Select Committee the authority to suggest whether a register should be compulsory or voluntary.

I want to express one or two other reasons on this issue which may clear up the point I am trying to make. This is far too important a matter for the House to commit itself in advance of the facts. It is not our intention, and I do not think it is the intention of anyone in the House, to delay a decision. The report of the Select Committee will have to come back to the House of Commons and be voted on by the House before a decision can be taken. It cannot be argued that there is any device to try to put off taking 412 a decision. The matter must come back to the House at a later stage for further debate, after which a decision can be taken.

We have sought to amend Motion No. 3 in the light of the withdrawal of Motion No. 2. We seek to leave the Select Committee freedom to recommend the type of register which it considers correct. It could be that the Select Committee will say that part of the register should be public and part should be private. It could be recommended that the register be part compulsory and part voluntary. We ought to await the views of the Select Committee. If we look at other countries, their experiences, and what they do it is seen that undoubtedly they do not all follow the same pattern, or the same pattern in the same register. I believe that it would be far wiser for the House not to jump the hurdle today but to allow the Select Committee to be set up, give it the terms of reference which we have suggested, and let it come back to the House for a final decision. The matter has to come back in any case.

§ The Attorney-General (Mr. Samuel Silkin):

I wish to raise a point merely for clarification. I gather that the right hon. Gentleman suggests that the Select Committee would be able to suggest, for example, that there be a part voluntary and part compulsory register. The right hon. Gentleman's amendment to Motion No. 3 states: (a) what class of pecuniary interest or other benefit should be disclosed; ". Is that intended to refer only to the compulsory part of the register? It does not appear to go with what the right hon. Gentleman was saying earlier about the voluntary nature of a register, which he would recommend and which, one would have thought, must leave it to the individual hon. Member to decide for himself what he discloses in the register.

§ Mr. Prior

If the Select Committee expressed the view that a voluntary register was right, it would still be entitled to tell us what should be included in the voluntary register. Therefore, the point which the right hon. and learned Gentleman raises could be covered by that. We have tried in the amendment to stick as closely as possible to the words which the Government have put down, but I do not think that there need be any particular trouble about that. 413 There is also the question of the class of persons who should register. Many people have far more opportunity than hon. Members to indulge in corruption. Local councillors have large financial patronage and it is this, rather than anything involving hon. Members or anything which has happened in this place that is, paradoxically, the reason we are having this debate. We certainly could not agree that local councillors should be excluded. We must also consider the Press and people such as City editors and others who have real power and influence. Here we prefer to await the views of the NUJ and the newspaper proprietors. But what about parliamentary candidates? Some must not be seen to be treated in a different way from others, and, after all, we are all parliamentary candidates when it comes to a General Election.

I have no doubt that the debate will produce many further examples of difficulties which we face on this issue.

We are not a corrupt Parliament.

§ Mr. Denis Skinner (Bolsover)

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves that point—

§ Mr. Prior

No, I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman.

We are in a special position in public life. Pride in one's membership of this place makes one wish to see full public confidence in the manner of our business and the way in which we carry it out. That now requires disclosure, so let us get on with the job of preparing for it in a sensible and dignified manner.

§ Mr. Raphael Tuck (Watford)

On a point of order. As so many hon. Members wish to speak, I wonder whether you could urge all hon. Members, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to limit their speeches to ten minutes.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas)

The House has heard the hon. Member.

§ Mr G. R. Strauss (Vauxhall)

I shall try to keep my remarks as brief as possible, but I had some responsibility for the Report of the Select Committee in 414 1969 and I spent many months of that year in considering this matter deeply. I would suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) that it is not a supine report. It is a carefully thought-out report which comes to clearly stated conclusions and gives the arguments which supported us in reaching those conclusions. I therefore hope that it will not be dismissed offhand.

I am glad that our main recommendation has been accepted by the Government and I think that it will be accepted by the whole House. That is the recommendation contained in the first motion, which the Select Committee over which I presided considered to be of the utmost importance. If that were accepted in the spirit in which it is set out, it would cure the mischief of non-declaration which has troubled hon. Members and the public.

The right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) asked for the reason for the reference to declaring an interest that a Member may have had, may have, or may be expecting to have. We tried in that proposal to be comprehensive, to make it certain that any financial interests that a Member has at the moment or has received in the past—he may not be receiving any at the moment—or has been promised in the future, whether that support were financial or came into some other category, should be declared when the Member is speaking to other Members on the subject connected with that support. Unless it is made comprehensive, it would be ineffective.

We put this proposal forward as we did believing it to be a better alternative to the proposal, which we had studied at great length, for a compulsory register. We rejected that, for reasons which I shall describe, in favour of this proposal. I hope that the right hon. Member will not press his amendment or that, if he does, it will be defeated. It would very much weaken the motion and anyway it would be unwise to turn down a proposal like this which had the unanimous support of a Select Committee, with all its considerable authority.

We thought that this proposal was sufficient because, in the opinion not of the Committee but of all those who 415 appeared before us, the practice of disclosure of Members' interests required revision. New action had to be taken, for reasons which all hon. Members know. There had been a great development of public relations activity. Large numbers of hon. Members, perfectly properly and honestly, were acting as public relations men for various organisations, some good, some bad and some indifferent. Foreign Governments were using their help. The expansion was such that the old custom of declaration was completely out of date. New proposals were necessary and we brought forward these.

We said that any remuneration—not just any money—should be declared to other Members at the time that the Member concerned was talking about the subject for which he had received, was receiving or was likely to receive remuneration. That would be all-inclusive. Remuneration in the old terms meant payment of a retainer, a steady income, but nowadays remuneration takes a variety of forms—casual gifts, perhaps even large sums of money, a payment for a secretary, the provision of offices, luxury trips abroad. There is nothing wrong in such remuneration in itself, but we felt that all these things should be declared so that, when a Member spoke about the glories of a regime in Patagonia and had had a luxury trip to Patagonia paid for by the Patagonian Government, he should mention that fact and thus allow other Members to judge his speech with that knowledge. He might criticise Patagonia, but all that should be declared.

The other and more important consideration that we had in mind was that the custom—it was not a rule; up to now there have been no rules, but we suggest that there should be firm rules, strictly enforced—had been that Members should declare such interest as they had only in the Chamber or in a formal Committee. We knew, as do most Members, that a great deal of the public relations work done by Members on behalf of organisations is done not in the House or in a formal Committee, but informally, at gatherings of Members, at parties and in discussions in corridors.

Some Members may say to another, "I think that something is good. Could I have your support? I am organising 416 this or that activity."We say that whenever a Member is active on behalf of any organisation from which he has or has had remuneration, he should disclose that fact not only in the House or in a formal Committee, but on all occasions to any hon. Member or civil servant to whom he is talking or writing.

§ Mr. Michae! McNair-Wilson (Newbury)

The right hon. Gentleman has singled out public relations men. Why should they have this odium attached to them? Anyone with an interest could do that sort of lobbying. Why should not he be put in the same category?

§ Mr. Strauss

I am not clear about the hon. Member's point. What we had in mind was that anyone receiving remuneration for carrying on a case or influencing other hon. Members on a certain matter should declare that remuneration when talking to other hon. Members, whatever the circumstances, in the House or outside.

We are asked now to accept the first motion, with an amendment which I hope that the House will reject. I will now go on to the more controversial proposal—

§ Sir M. Havers

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the first motion, could he explain where he sees any great difference between the motion as proposed by the Government and our amendment, save that our amendment emphasises that a Member of Parliament should exercise his judgment, as we believe is right?

§ Mr. Strauss

Ours is stronger than the amended version. A Member might argue before the Select Committee on Privileges, if a matter went there, "I thought that it was all right, so I did not declare it." As the matter stands, it would be for the Select Committee, acting objectively, to come to that decision.

I now want to say something about the important motion which sets up a compulsory register. I echo the view that it is ridiculous to ask us to accept the principle of a compulsory register before we have any idea what that register is to be. Indeed, my Committee—if I may call it that—dealt with that point. We said in paragraph 70 that it was not enough…to accept the principle of the register as granted, and leave it to the House to settle what its detailed requirements should be. The content of a register is the point at which the problems and, perhaps, insuperable difficulties arise. 417 Therefore, to ask the House to accept the principle of a compulsory register without any idea whether it will be good, bad, sensible or whatever its provisions may be, is ridiculous. It should not have been put to the House in that way.

The arguments for a compulsory register are well known. It is said that a Member's constituents should know what his private financial interests are. If that is so, the proposal should apply not only to Members but to candidates. It should apply before a man is elected. But that would be difficult. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because it is difficult for all the candidates at an election to declare their private interests at some registry before they are Members of the House. I am sure that that is obvious.

§ Mr. Skinner

Will my right hon. Friend explain why? He says that it is a difficulty.

§ Mr. Strauss

I will willingly do so, but hon. Members must not complain if my speech is too long. If I have six opponents as candidates and before nomination day they have to declare all their interests on a register in the House, the situation would be quite ridiculous.

§ Mr. Skinner

It would be on the nomination paper.

§ Mr. Strauss

I want to carry on—

§ Mr. Skinner

You are way out. Chairman of the Committee!

§ Mr. Strauss

I know that many of my hon. Friends disagree with my point of view, but it is shared by many others of my hon. Friends. It was shared by all the other Labour Members of the Select Committee—[Interruption.]

§ Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies (Thanet, West)

On a point, of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it right that we should have to suffer these contemptible interruptions, which are becoming so frequent, without the protection of the Chair against the scandalous conduct of the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), whose sheer folly and slimy stupidity are absolutely contemptible?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. There is no advantage in putting a point of order in such a way that it arouses even more emotion. We are being addressed by the Father of the House, and I suggest that 418 the right hon. Gentleman be allowed to proceed with his speech.

§ Mr. Skinner

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not singularly inappropriate for the hon. and learned Member for Thanet, West (Mr. Rees-Davies) to raise a point of order about my conduct in this Chamber when he, in another capacity, has broken the rules regarding the publication of drawings in court, of which he is supposed to be—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I hope that we shall not have—

§ Mr. Skinner

And he knows.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. We do the House no credit—

§ Mr. Skinner

I know that.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

—if we make charge and counter-charge.

§ Mr. Atkinson

It is people like the hon. and learned Member for Thanet, West (Mr. Rees-Davies) who do it no good.

§ Mr. Strauss

It is urged that it is desirable that the public should know the private interests of all Members of Parliament, and—

§ Mr. Atkinson

Including the Committee.

§ Mr. Strauss

—that is an argument which is put forward. It is not when or whether those private interests conflict with his parliamentary duties, but that all those private interests should be known.

I suggest that that is nonsense. I do not believe that there is public demand for it. I have asked many of my colleagues whether their constituents or local parties have ever asked them what their private interests are. They have not asked me. What, in effect, would happen?

What is largely at the back of this demand is the desire of the gossip columnists of newspapers to be able to pick up facts and figures from the registry and then compare one Members' income in one year with his income in another year, or to compare the income and position of various Members with that of other Members, and so provide them with material for malicious but popular gossip articles.

419 Nowadays, one of the greatest social evils is the extent to which people and their families, especially those in public life, are exposed to hostile and unfair newspaper gossip so suffering interference with the privacy of their lives. This is a grave and harmful development and should not be encouraged. Other hon. Members have no doubt been victims of this sort of thing. I have been a victim of it myself. To extend it would be exceedingly unfortunate.

A serious difficulty arises when the House considers, as we considered in my Committee, what should be declared in a public register, and tries to differentiate between those things which could well be declared and other things which might be declared but which would gravely interfere with the legitimate privacy of a Member and his family. One example is directorships. That is easy enough—put down "directorships". But a directorship which pays a small amount annually to directors is unimportant compared with shareholdings which may involve substantial sums of money in public companies. If directorships should be declared, what about the value of shareholdings, and not only those of the Member, but those of his wife and children? If this is to be logically——

§ Mr. Marcus Lipton (Lambeth, Central)

There will be a number of divorces.

§ Mr. Strauss

If this is to be logically done, every Member would have to insist that his wife—and every lady Member would have to insist that her husband—declared in the registry what her or his shareholdings were and the size of the income from various investments. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about mistresses?"] I suggest that would be intolerable and unacceptable to the House and the public.

The next point is, which Members will have to declare what their interests are and their income? Is it to be only public relations advisers and consultants? What about other professional people, such as accountants, doctors and solicitors? Are they to declare every year not only what their income is from their work, but who their clients are? Is that the suggestion? That would be a grave situation. Some people may support it, but I should have thought 420 that it was plainly contrary to the public interest and not acceptable to the House.

I am pointing out only some of the difficulties that are likely to arise.

Another is that of enforcement. It is all very well saying that one can enforce this by, perhaps, the Committee of Privileges. But how is one to do it?

§ Mr. Skinner

That is a laugh.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I would remind the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) that running interruptions made from a sedentary position spoil any debate, and that the least we can do is to be courteous to each other.

§ Mr. Skinner

1 will remember that in future.

§ Hon. Members

Name him.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I am not frightened.

§ Mr. Strauss

We have to look at the reality of the situation. Whatever form of register one has, compulsory or otherwise, one is bound to have a number of Members who, through negligence or because they disagree in principle with the whole philosophy of public registration of private affairs, would not register, or would register inaccurately. They may not register at all. and it may be a substantial number. That is possible. There are many people on this side of the House as well as the other who think that the principle is wrong and contrary to the best public interest.

What will happen? Who will deal with them? Will there be a special Committee of the House with, perhaps, police powers looking into the affairs of Members and checking the register to see whether it is correct? If it is wrong, what will happen? Will it be reported to the Committee of Privileges—which would have its time cut out checking all this? It is an impossible situation.

The only other way of doing it is the way suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) when he appeared as a witness before the Select Committee. That is to make it statutory. But what happens then? If it is alleged that a Member has not declared his interests, there will then arise the question of the police courts; the fiat of the Attorney-General will be given, 421 and then the public prosecutor will have to take action against the Member and have the thing out in court. It will then be right outside the control of the House.

§ Mr. Edward Short

Would my right hon. Friend say how the declaration which was proposed in his Select Committee report was to be enforced?

§ Mr. Strauss

Our proposal is quite different. We made the limited proposal that only when talking about matters in which they had a private interest should Members declare that interest. We are not asking 635 Members to declare their private interests and keep their declarations up to date. This is such a limited problem that it is very unlikely to arise. In fact, custom has shown over many years that declarations have been honourably made by Members when talking about affairs involving their private interests. There has been no difficulty about that.

If there is to be a statutory obligation, if a Member may be prosecuted and by fines or otherwise punished as laid down in the statute, with the possibility of appeal to the High Court, it would go right outside the control of the House, and I do not think that that is a situation which the House would accept. For these and other reasons we came to the conclusion in the Select Committee that a compulsory declaration would not be a good thing. We thought it would cause many insuperable problems— although no doubt it would be warmly welcomed by journalists who deal with parliamentary affairs—and that it was not in the interests of the House.

In the Select Committe we said that if a register was to be meaningful, it would entail cumbersome, inquisitorial machinery which is likely to be evaded by the few Members it is designed to enmesh and that it would be damaging to Parliament. I still believe that that is so.

I realise that because of a number of external factors which have occurred— exposures of local government corrupt practices—and so no—a demand has grown for a register. But that does not mean it is justified. People do not realise that, contrary to practice among local authorities. Members have no influence whatsoever in effecting contracts or on 422 policy. They do not see development plans. Whatever may be the case with local authorities or with the United States Congress, where members have considerable influence in effecting State contracts, there is no case for a general declaration of private interests of Members of Parliament.

A new Select Committee is to be set up to consider the same problem as we considered five years ago. That Select Committee may come up with a different answer; I do not know. It may find that there are aspects to which we did not give full weight and it may come to another conclusion. But I cannot at present change my mind.

Of course, I have no objection to another inquiry. Its conclusions may be new and persuasive, and if so I may be willing to accept them. But I cannot vote for a motion whose premise reverses the conclusion of a Committee report which I, as chairman, signed together with my colleagues, and which categorically demands action which I and the other signatories considered was likely to damage Parliament.

§ Dr. Michael Winstanley (Hazel Grove)

Before proceeding to the motions on which we shall be voting later, may I begin with a few words about the background to this matter and the considerations which have led many Members to believe that t