Order for Second Reading read.

Mr. Speaker

I have to inform the House that I have selected the Amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. Friends: That this House, recognising that Northern Ireland will not cease to be part of the United Kingdom without the consent of the people of Northern Ireland, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to substitute a Bill which provides for less limited questions to be posed, and for the poll to be preceded by the publication of a White Paper containing Her Majesty's Government's clear intention to give a definite undertaking which will ensure that all the people of Northern Ireland have an equal opportunity to exercise political power based on a Bill of Rights assuring civil liberties and equality before the law, and also containing proposals which would enable both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to find means of co-operation for the benefit of the people of Ireland as a whole.

3.35 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

It comes before the House in fulfilment of a promise to the people of Northern Ireland. That promise was made when the Parliament of Northern Ireland was prorogued in March this year. The House will know that Her Majesty's Government included a proposal for periodic plebiscites in the measures which were discussed with the Northern Ireland Government shortly before the Northern Ireland Parliament was prorogued.

Too many elections in Northern Ireland have been contested in effect on the border issue. The possibility of a Parliament which might be in favour of getting rid of the border was a spectre which regularly raised its head. Our aim in proposing plebiscites was to take the border out of the day-to-day political scene, and to reassure the people of Northern Ireland that there would be no change in the position of their Province as part of the United Kingdom without the consent of a majority of its inhabitants.

The proposal was accepted by the Northern Ireland Government although, as the House will know, other measures which were regarded as essential by Her Majesty's Government were not so accepted, and in consequence legislative and executive powers vested in the Northern Ireland Parliament and Government were transferred for a period of one year to the United Kingdom Parliament.

In his statement to the House about this transfer of powers on 24th March, my right honourable Friend the Prime Minister re-affirmed that the Government would in due course invite Parliament to provide for a system of plebiscites in Northern Ireland about the border, the first to be held as soon as practicable. This Bill seeks the authority of Parliament for a first poll on the border, and sets out the questions to be asked, and the manner in which they are to be put to the people of Northern Ireland.

Mr. Neil Marten (Banbury)

Will my right hon. Friend clarify a small point? He referred to a "plebiscite" and in a previous statement on 17th October he referred to it as a "plebiscite or referendum". The Bill calls it a "poll". Are all three things the same?

Mr. Whitelaw

There must be some hidden and subtle meaning behind the question which I am not able to comprehend. I shall stick to exactly what I have said and to what the Bill says and to what I am seeking to do. I am concerned with Northern Ireland, and I suspect that my hon. Friend has other interests somewhere in the back of his mind.

The Bill does not provide for any future poll. The questions are simple and to the point. The roots of the matter with which the Bill deals—

Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North)

Perhaps the Secretary of State will be dealing with this point later in his speech, but he says that the questions are simple and to the point. They involve our relationship with a foreign power, namely the Republic of Ireland. Can he say what discussions he had with the Government of the Republic about the nature of the questions to be posed and, in the event that the results should be in favour of union with the Republic, what arrangements he has made for that to be implemented?

Mr. Whitelaw

There have been constant talks between the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach on these matters and I prefer to leave the matter at that.

The roots of the matter with which this Bill deals, as so often in Irish affairs, lie deep in history. The special position of Northern Ireland within the British Isles is, of course, a very old problem. It did not begin with the formal partition of Ireland, which simply recognised that at that time the two parts of the island could not live together in peace. But we have to concern ourselves with present facts, which are that the status of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom is guaranteed by an Act of this Parliament which affirmed that this status would not be altered without the consent of the Parliament of Northern Ireland. The exact words are to be found in Section 1(2) of the Ireland Act, 1949.

It has been argued for some years past that since the decision whether partition should continue is really one for the people of Northern Ireland, it is they whose consent should be sought. Indeed, the Downing Street Declaration of August, 1969, made between the Leader of the Opposition, as the then Prime Minister, and Lord Moyola, the then Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, provided that the consent of the people of Northern Ireland should be obtained for any change in the position of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom, as well as reaffirming the provision in the Ireland Act to which I have just referred, relating to the consent of the Parliament of Northern Ireland.

The position of the Government, and I believe of this whole House, is quite clear. There can be no change in the constitutional position of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom unless by the will of the majority. But equally, if the majority of the people in Northern Ireland were to opt for a united Ireland, no British Government would stand in the way.

This Bill put that point to the Northern Ireland people in the clearest possible way. The voter is asked whether he wants Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom, or whether he wants Northern Ireland to be joined with the Republic of Ireland, outside the United Kingdom.

Mr. Paul B. Rose (Manchester, Blackley)

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is perfectly possible to vote "yes" in favour of both those propositions on the basis that one wants to remain part of the United Kingdom in the immediate future but also wishes to have negotiations leading ultimately to a United Ireland?

Mr. Whitelaw

How people decide to vote or not to vote in any election on any question put to them is a matter for them. I suppose it is possible to do that, but practically any questions that could be devised would be capable of much the same interpretation.

The Bill provides that the date will be fixed by order; this will be subject to negative Resolution procedure, as will be the order making regulations for the poll. In deciding upon them Her Majesty's Government will consider carefully the views of this House during the passage of the Bill. But if the Bill commends itself to the House, and to Parliament, the poll will be held as early in the New Year as the legislative processes, and the requirements of organisation and printing, will allow.

Mr. James Dempsey (Coatbridge and Airdrie)

I appreciate the Herculean task facing the right hon. Gentleman, but may I ask whether he is aware that people of moderate opinion are most apprehensive about having any poll during the dark nights? I visit this part of the island on personal business regularly and I know that there is constant fear in the minds of people that they will be subject to serious provocation during the dark nights from all sorts of sources. All of the security forces in this country will not be able to prevent that.

Mr. Whitelaw

No one is more aware than I of all these points after the past seven months. I understand the hon. Gentleman and I have in mind some of the recent difficulties that have arisen. These have all to be taken into consideration when dealing with the Bill and the timing of the order.

The Bill provides that those entitled to vote in the border poll will be those entitled to vote at an election to the Northern Ireland Parliament, that is to say the Stormont franchise will apply. There is not a great difference between this and the Westminster franchise, but the qualifications for the Stormont franchise are more closely related to an interest in the province.

Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East)

Can my right hon. Friend say whether the poll is to be held before or after the local government elections?

Mr. Whitelaw

I consistently said, when the local authority elections were postponed, that the poll on the border would be held before the local authority elections.

It is desirable that the poll should be taken on the same franchise as will be used in the local government elections, which is accepted as the one most representative of the people of Northern Ireland.

On the other hand, the Bill provides that the poll shall be conducted along the lines of an election to this Parliament. The under-sheriffs are the returning officers for Westminster elections in Northern Ireland and my noble Friend the Minister of State will be holding consultations with them this week to discuss the detailed arrangements for the poll. Westminster rules are generally known and, we trust, respected. They cannot be applied absolutely, because in this poll there are no constituencies and no candidates. But in making regulations for the conduct of the poll, Her Majesty's Government will have close regard to Westminster practice.

One feature of this practice is more generous provision for postal voting than under the Northern Ireland Parliamentary election rules, which is important at a time when so many voters have changed their address.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

Will the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements to supply people with a poll card and number so that they will be notified through the post that they are on the register and able to vote?

Mr. Whitelaw

I recognise the importance of this point. No doubt it is something which the hon. Gentleman will develop during the debate. We will certainly consider it when we come to the regulations.

I turn now to the Amendment upon the Order Paper standing in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, and others of his hon. and right hon. Friends.

Mr. Peter Archer (Rowley Regis and Tipton)

Before the right hon. Gentleman deals with that point, may I ask whether he knows of any statutory precedent for a suspending and dispensing power as wide in its terms as that which he is assuming in Clause 1(2)?

Mr. Whitelaw

I cannot give the hon. and learned Member an answer to that question off the cuff. I will look into it and see that either I or one of my hon. Friends is carefully briefed to answer the point during the remaining stages of the Bill and to consider any representations which may be made upon it.

Mr. A. W. Stallard (St. Pancras, North)

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question of the Bill, may I put one further question? He said that this is one of a number of polls. Is he able to say with what frequency they will take place? Shall we need a fresh Bill each time we have a plebiscite?

Mr. Whitelaw

I think I said exactly the opposite; at least, that is what I meant to say. This Bill provides only for the first poll. The question of any future poll, plebiscite or referendum is left wide open and is not affected in any way by the Bill.

I turn to the amendment on the Order Paper, standing in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and his hon. and right hon. Friends. This calls first for the Government to substitute a Bill providing for less limited questions to be asked. Here I must re-emphasise what I said earlier. This Bill relates to Her Majesty's Government's pledge. That pledge is to give the people of Northern Ireland an early poll. That poll is to be about whether they wish to stay in the United Kingdom or to become part of a united Ireland.

The Opposition amendment relates to a quite different kind of poll. It relates to a poll about the future constitutional arrangements of Northern Ireland, such as equality of status, Bill of Rights, relations with the Republic, and so on. They are certainly some of the questions which must be answered by any eventual constitutional settlement. Their importance could not be questioned in any way.

But surely it is also fair to argue that those who answer the simple question in this Bill by voting to remain in the United Kingdom can be in no doubt that such a decision carries with it rights and responsibilities. These rights and responsibilities arising from membership of the United Kingdom have been clearly spelt out recently by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister.

Therefore I do not think it can be accepted that the poll, whenever it comes, will be asking the voters to sign a blank cheque. The voters of Northern Ireland know perfectly well what membership of the United Kingdom involves—the support of troops to prevent civil war, the support of £200 million a year to keep unemployment down and standards of living up, and, on the other hand, acceptance of the equality and freedom of all citizens under the law and the right of Parliament to decide what the constitutional arrangements should be.

Mr. John Mendelson (Penistone)

Earlier the right hon. Gentleman made it clear that the poll would come before the local government elections. It is important for those hon. Members who have supported his policy since he took office to know why he changed his mind. He originally said that the local government elections would come first. There has been a suggestion that he has been subjected to threats. Would he make clear why he changed his mind on the timing?

Mr. Whitelaw

Certainly. I never disguised my own desire that it would be better to have the poll on the border before the local government elections. However, in the circumstances in which I found myself I put forward the date 6th December for the local government elections. I then received representations—and the hon. Gentleman and the whole House should know this—from representatives of, I think, all the parties who were seeking to take part in those elections that 6th December would be a thoroughly unsatisfactory time to hold them. That was not just one section's view; it was that of all the parties. That being the view of all the parties concerned—of the people who were actually to take part in those elections—that they should not have them at that time, it was, I think, perfectly reasonable for me on that basis to change my mind. I have no illusions about it; I recognise that when one changes one's mind people say that one has done it under pressure of this sort or that. Sometimes in politics it is a strong thing to do to change one's mind, I believe, if one has evidence that one's decision may not have been the wisest decision. I therefore decided to change my mind because I felt that it was right to do so.

As for the Government's White Paper, we are anxious to get this out as soon as possible, and I intend to start urgent consultations with parties and organisations next week. We do not believe that it would be wise to commit ourselves at this stage as to the order in which the border poll and the White Paper will come, but, bearing in mind that both are urgent, we shall certainly wish to hear the views of this House.

Nevertheless, when all the arguments about timing, dark nights, new registers have been considered and discussed, as they will be, there is one fact which I must ask the House not to forget. There are people in Northern Ireland who simply want to demonstrate by their vote to the rest of the United Kingdom and to the world at large their passionate desire to remain as part of the United Kingdom. At the time when their Parliament was prorogued they were promised that they would be able to do just that. They expect that promise to be fulfilled and that opportunity to be given to them. That is the purpose of this Bill.

3.52 p.m.

Mr. Merlyn Rees (Leeds, South)

I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof: this House, recognising that Northern Ireland will not cease to be part of the United Kingdom without the consent of the people of Northern Ireland, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to substitute a Bill which provides for less limited questions to be posed, and for the poll to be preceded by the publication of a White Paper containing Her Majesty's Government's clear intention to give a definite undertaking which will ensure that all the people of Northern Ireland have an equal opportunity to exercise political power based on a Bill of Rights assuring civil liberties and equality before the law, and also containing proposals which would enable both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to find means of co-operation for the benefit of the people of Ireland as a whole. I would make it clear that, in moving this reasoned amendment, the wording of which has been designed to reveal our real doubts on aspects of Government policy, we shall not be voting against the Second Reading of the Bill. As a matter of principle we are not against the referendum, but we have doubts about its timing and its wording.

The matter of the referendum leads me at once to a point I raised in the debate last week. I do not think it has been answered. I refer to the meaning of paragraph 82 which, the House will recall, although I shall not read it all, says: The wishes of the people of Northern Ireland on their relationship to the United Kingdom and to the Republic will be ascertained by a plebiscite early in the New Year. I come back to the point with which the right hon. Gentleman dealt today in his speech and also in questions. Is it to be a once-for-all plebiscite, and then are there to be pragmatic consultations? The Secretary of State told us today that he is to start consultations very shortly. I know that neither the Secretary of State nor anybody in the Government, nor anybody here, is responsible for Press reports, but the Press reports of the Prime Minister's Press conference last week are all that we can go by. They report the Prime Minister as saying that if the Northern Ireland people choose the United Kingdom then it is up to us at Westminster here to take the decision. We note that the Secretary of State talks of "consultations soon" and then a plebiscite and then, I presume, consultations again before the White Paper—

Mr. Whitelaw

That is not exactly what I said. I think I made it quite clear. What I said was that I was having consultations immediately following publication of the paper for discussion, having given the parties time to consider it. It leads to the White Paper. In my speech today I left open the question whether publication of that White Paper or the border poll will come first. I left it absolutely open. I want to make that perfectly clear.

Mr. Rees

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his intervention, but what is exercising us on this side of the House, and what is the burden of my argument today, is the timing. It is important for us to know, and as soon as possible, when the people of Northern Ireland as a whole will be brought into the consultations.

On the border itself, the Green Paper, in paragraph 41, said: In announcing Direct Rule —and the Secretary of State repeated this today— the Prime Minister stated that in the future periodic plebiscites would be held to allow the people of Northern Ireland to declare their views on the Border issue. This is a different matter from plebiscites on wider issues about the constitution. This is the Prime Minister saying that there would be future periodic plebiscites on the border. We are entitled in this debate to get this clear, because here is what seems to be, in the Prime Minister's words, the first of a number of plebiscites on the border. We need to be clear whether there is to be a plebiscite on any other matter. The Prime Minister did not say. It would be valuable to have spelt out the time scale the Government now have in mind for the next border poll. Is it to be in 10 years? Is it to be in five years? Or have the Government changed their mind and is this to be the only plebiscite on the border? In other words, is the Prime Minister's March statement still Government policy?

I mentioned a week ago that as between paragraph 82 and the questions in the Bill there are differences. Paragraph 82 says, The wishes of the people of Northern Ireland on their relationship to the United Kingdom and to the Republic will be ascertained by a plebiscite early in the New Year. The paragraph does not say that the plebiscite is to be on the border but that it is to be on the relationship between Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. I accept that, colloquially, "the border" is used as an umbrella heading for the feelings of the people of Northern Ireland on the problem between themselves, the United Kingdom and the South, but we cannot carry out plebiscites under umbrella headings that sum up people's views. The plebiscite should be conducted on the basis that the Bill is a constitutional Bill, as we are arguing. We shall seek to put this right in Committee, if only for the sake of accuracy.

It would be foolish for anyone to try to alter the border between North and South; to do so would be a sign of failure. Technically, it would be possible to alter the border and still to maintain the existing close link between Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. This may be a pedantic or technical point, but it is important to get it right in the Bill.

Rev. Ian Paisley

I am sure the hon. Gentleman did not do so intentionally, but he referred to the problem between Northern Ireland and the South of Ireland and the problem between Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. There is no problem between Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. We want to remain part of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Rees

In the way in which he raised that point, the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) touched another nerve in the relationship between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. What I meant was the question of the relationship between the two.

There is a technical point on the title of the Bill. It is a constitutional Bill and not a Bill on the border, and we shall seek to put that right at the appropriate time.

Our main criticism is that the questions are too narrow in what is essentially a constitutional Bill. I accept that implicit in all that the Secretary of State said today is that the plebiscite—as he conceives it—is not part of a constitutional settlement but is designed to settle the minds of the majority in Northern Ireland. That may be desirable, but with the plebiscite in its present form the Bill is a constitutional Bill.

The link with the United Kingdom matters to the majority in the North. The Secretary of State mentioned the Ireland Act, 1949, and the Downing Street Declaration. The pledge matters. That is reinforced by the fact that Northern Ireland could not be forced into the South. It would be impossible, it would be resisted, the South could not cope and, even if it were possible, it would be politically and morally wrong to force Northern Ireland into the South. On both sides of the House, the key word is "consent". The more we say that, the more the people in Northern Ireland seem not to listen. But it is "consent" that we have all sought all the way along. The IRA has ignored the question of consent and it will have much to answer for at the bar of history.

There are now elements in the Protestant community who set out to emulate the IRA; they, too, kill and maim, and whatever is said about the IRA applies equally to them. Those Protestants, too, ignore the fact that "consent" is the key word in all discussions. Consent is made the key point of our reasoned Amendment, and I hope that this will be noticed by the majority community in Northern Ireland.

The questions should go further than the constitutional link. Other parts of the package will undoubtedly appear which should be included in the questions—the new Assembly, the Bill of Rights, the all-Ireland link. There should, at least, be a third question to appeal to the moderates. The third question which we shall suggest is: Do you want eventually to live in a united Ireland brought about by free consent of the peoples of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland? The questions as framed ignore the moderate who is prepared to look at the long term.

The Alliance Party has proposed a new question to cover the considerations which led to our third question. The Alliance Party is small. As yet, we do not know how much support it has in Northern Ireland, but it sets out to attract the moderates in both communities. The Alliance Party, in a letter to me, after agreeing with the principle of the plebiscite, says: We are, however, worried about two features of the suggested questions. First, we believe it is important that long-term aspirations should not be mixed up or confused with the situation as it is today, and that there should therefore be a preamble on the ballot paper making it clear that people are not being asked now to express an opinion which will be a once and for all commitment. Secondly, we believe that the first question is at present framed in terms which can give rise to widespread confusion. It is meaningless to ask people to vote for the link with Britain without making it clear the terms under which the link is acceptable to Britain. We have already seen the widely differing interpretations which have been placed on the Green Paper. We believe it is essential that the White Paper spelling out very clearly the terms of the link with the rest of the United Kingdom should be published before the plebiscite takes place. The preamble suggested by the Alliance Party is: It is the intention of the United Kingdom Government to hold plebiscites on the constitutional position of Northern Ireland from time to time: It does not say "on the border", but "on the constitutional position", and that fits in with our point about the title of the Bill. The preamble continues: These are the choices now open: — Do you wish Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom under the terms outlined in the White Paper? OR Do you wish Northern Ireland to be joined with the Republic of Ireland? That question brings us to the timing of the White Paper. As I said last week, in the light of political reality, we regard that as the major aspect of the debate, and it is the major aspect of our reasoned amendment. I have quoted what has been said by the Alliance Party. The question we have suggested is in similar terms to the view of the New Ulster Movement. I will now quote what is said by the Northern Ireland Labour Party. The theme of everything that the Opposition are saying is that the view of the moderates in Northern Ireland must be expressed, and that will be the theme of our amendments in Committee.

Captain L. P. S. Orr (Down, South)

That is the view of the Unionist Party, which contains most of the moderates.

Mr. Rees

The Unionist Party in its old form covered a wide spectrum of views. As a result of the Government's action in March, that wide spectrum of views is no longer one common arch like a rainbow but split into bits. I am putting forward the views of the moderates and some members of the former Unionist Party may agree with them.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson (Walthamstow, East)

If the White Paper were to come first and we were then to have a plebiscite as set out in the Alliance paper, should we not have a conditional plebiscite and would this not change the whole meaning of the plebiscite? If people were told, "Instead of simply remaining British, you will be British on certain terms", that would surely be a concept very foreign to this country.

Mr. Rees

The hon. Gentleman has put his finger precisely on the point I was making. I take it from what the Secretary of State said today that he has not yet made up his mind. If people are told, "If you want a link with the United Kingdom, this will happen" and then, a week or two later, they are told "These are the terms under which you will be in the United Kingdom", such a statement is made with some degree of false pretences. The hon. Gentleman has summed up our view.

What the Northern Ireland Labour Party said is this: We have insisted that the plebiscite must follow the publication of the British Government's White Paper so that the people of Northern Ireland are fully aware of their responsibilities and obligations of continuing to live within the United Kingdom. The hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson) put the matter in different words, but he probably knew that it was the view of the Northern Ireland Labour Party and the moderates in the North of Ireland.

Mr. McNair-Wilson

The hon. Gentleman could not have perverted what I was saying more successfully.

Mr. Rees

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I would not wish to pervert his views or the views of anybody in Northern Ireland. I prefer to stick by the views of the Northern Ireland Labour Party.

The Secretary of State has given the House his view of the matter. The question of security must come into this debate and hon. Members on both sides of the House have faced up to it, The question of security and the timing of the election must be taken into account by the Secretary of State in the light of the information he has before him. However, to hold the plebiscite before March is asking for additional trouble from the security aspect. Ask those who have been involved in elections in Northern Ireland in the past and they will say that at the best of times, let alone under the present conditions, in some areas people are sometimes prevented from going to the polls. How much worse will the situation be now.

The Secretary of State said that all political parties were of the opinion that the local elections should not be held on 6th December. Those parties could not face a local election in the conditions which obtain in the Province. But exactly the same conditions will prevail when dealing with the border polls. The whole question of election is difficult and such activity in January and February will be very questionable.

We shall seek in Committee to develop this argument about timing in terms of the electoral register and it is important to face up to this matter. The Secretary of State said that the poll would be fought on the Stormont franchise. We must look at that situation to see how it all adds up. Some of the rules to be applied are to be on the Westminster lines, and again we must look to see what the result will be. The new register is to be issued on 15th February and, in our view, it is the best register to give a chance to everybody to express their views.

The Government must reveal in a White Paper their views on the sort of Northern Ireland they envisage. Will the assembly enable all people of Northern Ireland to play their part? Will the political arrangements be based on a Bill of Rights in which procedures of internment will be within the rule of law? Surely we should have the Government's view on this subject before the "terrorist order", as it is called, with its temporary arrangements comes before the House for debate. It would be most helpful to have the Government's view of the future.

I do not at this stage ask for any details about what the Diplock Commission will report, but I should like to ask what the Government envisage coming out of that report. A statement was made about the Diplock Commission in the other place, but no statement on this subject has ever been made in this House. I listened carefully to what happened in the other place on that occasion, and I believe that it is important that we should be told what sort of Northern Ireland the people there will expect in considering any link with the United Kingdom.

The people of Northern Ireland must know more about the Irish dimension. In our reasoned amendment we said that such an arrangement should also contain proposals which would enable both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to find means of co-operation for the benefit of the people of Ireland as a whole. This is a reasonable suggestion and is put forward as a way of seeking means of co-operation.

In the last few days I have received a document from the Irish Congress of Trades Unions, part of which says: The people of North and South have a common interest in seeking the aid and expertise of the European Community for the development of the Irish region of the Community. But it would be unwise to rely on the EEC for more than marginal aids. Perhaps it is even more urgent to ensure that the people of North and South should co-operate in measures for the development of the resources of the whole region, and further co-operate in ensuring that regulations of the EEC are applied in a manner which will help and not hinder such development. The whole question of Irish development is seen differently in the North from the way in which it is seen in the South. It has been incredible in recent weeks to see just how differently the Irish dimension has been regarded in the North as compared with the way in which it has been interpreted in the South. We must remember that there is a special relationship between the United Kingdom and the South of Ireland. There is a common travel area and there are special arrangements in this country in terms of franchise for people coming from the South of Ireland—arrangements similar to those enjoyed by those who come from the Commonwealth. Furthermore, there are special arrangements about finance, and in the South, although the markings on the coinage are different, the values in both countries are the same.

The United Kingdom and the South of Ireland are both on the brink of going into the Common Market. In my view, if a reasonable line on the Irish dimension is pursued by Her Majesty's Government, it will bring a reasonable response from the South. I choose my words carefully when I say that, unless and until the South of Ireland recognises the realities of the North in some form or another, there will be trouble from time to time. If the South wishes to discuss the North with us, we must discuss Article 2 of the Irish Constitution with it. It would be an open-ended discussion if one were talking about an Irish dimension. It does not work both ways.

I say to the hon. Member for Antrim, North, who looks as if he is about to get at me on this, that it is no good our shutting our eyes to the question that there is already an Irish dimension, that what we are seeking to do is to rationalise it in the light of the 1970s when the whole concept of it arose at a time of civil war.

Rev. Ian Paisley

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is good at reading my facial expressions. Is it not a fact that in our last debate on this subject I raised the matter of Article 2 and said that there could not possibly be any co-operation between North and South until the South was prepared to recognise that Northern Ireland is, by the wishes of its people, part of the United Kingdom and that the South has no right to claim territorial rights over the territory of Northern Ireland? Is it not a condition in the European Economic Community that no member State can claim jurisdiction over the territory of a fellow member State?

Mr. Rees

On that last point the hon. Gentleman might well be right. I am interested to hear him repeat what he said last time. In effect, what he says is that the Irish dimension must be talked about and discussed, which is precisely what we are saying, and not shovelled under the carpet and left until after the border poll. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would like to know the Government's thinking on that before he advises his supporters what to do, given his views on the matter.

The Secretary of State told us that he has an open mind on timing, that all will be revealed when he comes to the House with an order. We believe that such an order should not come into effect until it has the approval of the House and that it is too important an issue to be left to the negative procedure. We shall take the opportunity of trying to correct that in Committee.

We are not asking for the precise date of the plebiscite, only that the White Paper should be published before the plebiscite. It is on this timing that we shall be voting. We believe it to be fundamental.

Returning briefly to the Bill, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer) expressed our concern about the powers given to the Secretary of State in Clause 1(2)— The Secretary of State may … make such further provision as … may appear to him to be expedient"— that seems rather broad— including provision modifying or excluding … any enactment or statutory provision "— surely not?— or making further provision to control or regulate (by the imposition of criminal penalties or otherwise) activities intended to influence the result of the poll. Again, surely not? Does it mean that criminal penalties may be imposed against people who care to come out openly in favour of one or the other, which means that there will be no meetings on the matter? What, for example, if people advise certain sections of the community to abstain, which at least is a possibility given the nature of Northern Ireland? Would this lead to the imposition of criminal penalties? We must know more about this. We shall find ways of discussing this in Committee, but it is important to have the Government's preliminary views on this.

We shall not oppose the Second Reading, but in our reasoned amendment we are putting the views of moderate opinion in Northern Ireland, that moderate opinion that we all say does not get a hearing. It has had one from us today and will continue to have one during the course of the passage of the Bill. We will press our views in Committee, for only in these ways can we impress upon the Secretary of State that timing that we believe will bring the best result.

On the question of timing, when the matter was discussed on 14th November, an editorial in The Guardian—which referred to Dr. O'Brien's preference for an extra question and my preference expressed at that time for the paper to come out first—said this: … each is designed to take the heat out of the situation and might also have the effect of removing the excuses for boycott or violence which seems likely to accompany any voting in Northern Ireland next year. In our view, the moderates are right. Before the plebiscite on the link with the United Kingdom the people should know what sort of Northern Ireland they are voting to live in. This is the key to our argument. It is the one we put today and why we shall vote on a reasoned Amendment. It is the core of the argument that we shall put in Committee.

4.25 p.m.

Mr. W. F. Deedes (Ashford)

The hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) has made a most reasonable speech on his "reasonable" amendment. To seize on one point of agreement, I share the hon. Gentleman's view that the Short Title of the Bill— Northern Ireland (Border Poll) Bill "— is odd. I should not take the least exception to it if it were sought to make amendments to that in Committee, for it does not seem to express what the Bill purports to do.

It is not difficult to accumulate, if one puts one's mind to it, doubts and reservations about the Bill, its timing and its wording. By far the easiest and safest sort of speech to make about the Bill is one which reluctantly concedes the principle but then hedges the concession about with insuperable practical difficulties.

I share the hon. Gentleman's view about timing, and, in particular, about the timing of any referendum and of local Government elections. It has always been my view that the odds are on a boycott of the plebiscite by at least one section. It has always been my view that, although the ballot is secret, going to the ballot is not, and that it is very important to cover the tracks of those who may wish to vote. It has further been my view for that reason that there would be some advantages in combining local government polls and the plebiscite in one operation. These are matters of detail on which we may all have separate views. No doubt they will be discussed in Committee with the assistance of the hon. Gentleman.

For my part, I have come to the firm conclusion that this plebiscite must be held, that it must be held on the terms of the Bill, that it will be best held before the White Paper appears, and that more in the future of Northern Ireland may depend on those propositions than on the outcome of the plebiscite itself. I will come on to say why I have reached that conclusion.

My right hon. Friend will not misunderstand me if I say that, although I welcome the reception which the Green Paper has received on future options for the constitution of Northern Ireland, it is unwise to draw too much comfort from that reception. It is not a reliable guide to what yet lies before us and him. As long as the options are reasonably open, the reception of the Green Paper is reasonably predictable. The crux for my right hon. Friend and for us will be the White Paper itself, and I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend is aware of that.

I was not quite convinced that the hon. Member for Leeds, South shared my view that the White Paper may bring us to a very more difficult stage than the reception of the Green Paper may have led us to suppose. It may confront my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State with the most critical moment which has occurred since he inherited this office in March. We do ourselves no service at this stage in pretending otherwise. It will be miraculous if we get the White Paper accepted without a crisis of gravity. It is right to say that now and not later. No one will be offered—no one can be offered—all he wants. In the nature of things, the disappointment will fall most heavily on those who hitherto, for 50 years, have represented the majority, who have had the monopoly, if one likes, of government in the province. Even the Green Paper, its wording, what it excludes, and the reception accorded to it, can leave us in small doubt about that.

Therefore—this is my approach to the plebiscite—I view the reactions of the majority at the time when the White Paper appears, and the possible repercussions, with certain misgivings. It is that, in my view, which is decisive on the question of timing, for while there may be arguments such as the hon. Gentleman advanced for bringing out the White Paper before the plebiscite is held, we must all recognise that, if the reception of the White Paper were such as I envisage as possible, the plebiscite would have to be postponed sine die.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

The right hon. Gentleman is developing with much force what I was saying, for example, about the Irish dimension. But does it not work the other way? If there is to be a plebiscite and people are judging whether they want to remain part of the United Kingdom, how much more angry will they be a short time afterwards when they see the terms on which they are to be part of it?

Mr. Deedes

That is a perfectly fair point, and I should be the last to assert that this is a matter on which one can be didactic. I am expressing my view and trying to give the reasons why I consider that, on balance, that view should hold.

In saying what I do about the reaction of the majority to the White Paper when it appears, I do not pretend, as has in some quarters become fashionable, to speak as a neutral. I find it difficult to take a neutral view as between the fire and the fire brigade. I do not take the view that the troubles at this moment in Northern Ireland are six of one and half-dozen of the other. In the last 2½ years, at least part of the IRA's policy has been to needle the Protestant majority into the kind of deplorable reactions recently witnessed from some sections of the UDA and their associates. I do not imagine that there are many hon. Members who would contradict that.

We now affirm our intention to deal with violence from whatever quarter it comes. Fair enough. But it is neither historically nor intrinsically correct to suggest that we are dealing with two rival sectarian forces which are equally blameworthy. We are not, and it is an utterly false analysis to suggest otherwise.

But, that being said, as things are now—

Mr. McNamara

Who blew up the water pipes outside Belfast and who burned Bombay Street?

Mr. Deedes

The hon. Gentleman and I could go through a long catalogue. What I am saying is that when we assess the events of the last 2½ years we can with neither historical nor intrinsic truth declare that it has been six of one and half-dozen of the other. That is not a judgment which I can accept. I have formed a careful view of these matters, and I am doing my best to express it now.

All that being said, as things are now, in the pass to which 2½ years of contrived provocation have brought us, with the reaction of the Right, it is the reaction of the Right to the White Paper which I fear most. "Very well", some hon. Members will say, "you then wish to appease them with the plebiscite". That is not quite my argument. It is to the majority of which I am speaking that our undertaking has been repeatedly given. I suppose that the firmest statement of it was given by the Prime Minister in March when he appointed my right hon. Friend as Secretary of State: no change in the situation, in the constitutional situation—I accept the amendment to "constitutional" rather than the reference to the border—without the will of the North being expressed.

If we are now seen to waver or to deviate from that undertaking, we shall undermine confidence, or, more accurately, we shall diminish that confidence which is already at a premium to a point when the White Paper may be doomed not only to failure but to bloody failure. That is the essence of my view about our approach to the plebiscite.

I would not expect either side in Northern Ireland, battered, poisoned and damaged as they have been by recent events, necessarily to see it in that light. But I would hope that the two sides in this House, which have had the advantage of being able to stand a little back from the battle, could see it in that light. However closely we engage ourselves in the attention which we give to the affairs of Northern Ireland, we are not subject to the pressures of the people of the province, on whichever side they may be.

I am not blind to the Opposition's point of view, and I do not regard it as unreasonable. They accept the necessity, they concede the principle, but they say, "Let us do it in a different way from that proposed in the Bill". In the context of our politics, that is a thoroughly reasonable approach. In the context of Northern Ireland politics, I doubt that it is as reasonable, because we are not here comparing like with like. When the hon. Member for Leeds, South, in all sincerity, proposes his reasonable amendment, I concede that it is reasonable to us on this side and to his hon. Friends, but we must consider the interpretation in the province. I am sure that he is seized of that point.

Mr. James Wellbeloved (Erith and Crayford)

Why should it be wrong to try to apply British standards to people who keep telling us that they are British?

Mr. Deedes

With respect, the hon. Gentleman misses my point. I shall not elaborate it because to do so would take up more of the time of the House. I have made my point, and it was not the one on which he intervened.

We who have stood a little back from all these events ought to get our perspectives right. The plebiscite itself, I believe, with its predictable outcome—hon. Members are entitled to say that we shall not find out anything that we do not know now—seems to me to have an importance but an importance which it is possible to exaggerate. Of far greater importance, to my mind, are our chances of getting an acceptable workable constitution for Northern Ireland. This is infinitely more important.

Of course, it can be argued that, other things being equal, the chances of getting that result would be improved if there were no plebiscite at all. I think that there is something in that. But other things are not equal. We gave our undertaking, and confidence in our word would be fatally eroded if we went back on it now. If we amend the Bill in a way calculated apparently to give less than that undertaking, the same result may flow.

My final word is this. I believe that there comes a point—I know that my right hon. Friend will not mind my saying this—when the man who accepts the main burden is entitled to make an appeal to the House. In my view, the Secretary of State is entitled to ask for the confidence of the House in this matter and in the way in which he proposes to handle it. All of us would do his job differently, and none of us would in the least like to have to do it. A concomitant of direct rule is to impose an almost intolerable burden on the Secretary of State. Of course, the House of Commons has an inalienable right to differ, to criticise, to oppose and to attack its principal servants, from viceroys down to Secretaries of State for Ireland. That is not in question. But in this matter, and on the Bill in particular, for reasons which I feel deeply, I believe that my right hon. Friend is entitled to the benefit of our doubts, and I for one unreservedly accord it.

4.38 p.m.

Mr. Russell Johnston (Inverness)

I do not believe that there can be many hon. Members who are greatly fond of referenda as a means of taking a democratic decision. The speeches already made in the debate have reflected our doubts and the practical problems in devising questions which effectively meet the sort of situation, complex as it is, that we have in Northern Ireland. Nevertheless, as the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) said, there is a clear commitment which must be honoured and on which we must go ahead.

In indicating at the outset, therefore, that we on this bench will support the official Opposition amendment, I emphasise strongly that this implies opposition not to the idea of the poll but, rather, to the timing and to the nature of the questions asked. Perhaps even the word "opposition" is too strong, and I should speak of doubts and uncertainties.

Firstly there is the question of the desirability of having the White Paper first. I mentioned this matter last week, as did the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees). Despite what the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said, I do not think that if one had it first one would be creating a plebiscite on a different issue. It is reasonable, surely, as has already been said, that people should know precisely what form the relationship with the United Kingdom will take. I proposed to quote the Secretary of the Alliance Party, but the right hon. Member for Leeds, South has done so already. That underlines from a moderate standpoint that it is not an unreasonable request. I am glad that the Secretary of State has already made it clear that his mind is not closed on the matter and that he will give it consideration.

The second major factor is the questions to be asked in the poll. As the Secretary of State said, they are very simple. I suspect that that is part of the problem. It is part of the problem of all referenda that in the end questions often end up too simple to tackle the kind of complexity to be dealt with. As some Liberals in Ulster have suggested, the problem might be less stark if the voter were offered a little more latitude and if instead of putting down the traditional British "X" he were given the chance of putting a "Yes" or a "No" against both questions if he felt so inclined. That would make it less likely that the plebiscite, referendum or poll—we are not sure which it is—would be boycotted. That is a real and serious difficulty and danger. As the right hon. Member for Ashford said, one cannot look into the ballot box but one can see people going to the polling booth. It might be less likely to be boycotted if some latitude were possible. As the questions are devised, they virtually force people to vote on strict and traditional sectarian lines.

The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. R. Chichester-Clark) indicated dissent.

Mr. Johnston

I see that the hon. Gentleman is frowning, but I think that they do. There are really so many alternatives. Among the categories of people who are involved in the plebiscite, there are those, for example, who favour a united Ireland but who realise that that proposition is not on now. Some of those people would like the opportunity of demonstrating that their vote to stay in the United Kingdom is not necessarily a vote supporting the traditional Unionist position.

There are also those who would favour a United Ireland only if drastic changes were made in the Republic. But the changes which that group regard as desirable vary a great deal. There are Unionist whose main driving force is not so much a desire to remain part of the United Kingdom as a desire to stay out of the Republic at all costs. The two things are not the same.

There are the leaders of the non-sectarian parties who will undoubtedly be under pressure to say what advice they will give their members and who very often will hesitate to give any advice, for fear of alienating one or the other section of their membership. It is all right for traditional nationalists and out-and-out republicans because for them it does not matter what form the plebiscite takes as in many cases they will ignore it entirely as they consider that Northern Ireland is not an area of self-determination.

If one thought along those lines, it would make the whole exercise rather less stark and potentially less divisive. We all realise that there is potential in the referendum for divisiveness. For example, if one had the option of saying "Yes" or "No" to the second question rather than putting an "X", the UDI people might say "No" to both, "No" to Northern Ireland remaining a part of the United Kingdom and "No' to its being joined with the Republic. But I feel certain that the category who would say "No" to both would be quite small. That would place Mr. Craig in an interesting position. There are a number of other interesting answers which one would derive from that. It is surely desirable that in an attempt to lessen the passion on the border, which after all is what this exercise is all about, we should seek not only to obtain a result but to make that result as informed as we can and, if possible, to reduce the rigidity of the voting pattern.

I think that the amendment which the Labour Party has put forward is reasonable. The way that the Secretary of State has spoken, which is always so reasonable, suggests that he has not necessarily rejected it. Equally, I am sure that he will not regard a vote for the amendment by us or by the official Opposition as basically any kind of criticism of the attempt which he is making to find a solution, but rather as a real and sincere doubt about whether it is being done in the most effective way.

4.48 p.m.

Mr. John E. Maginnis (Armagh)

As usual, the debate has ranged around many subjects. However, I shall return to the Bill. We have been talking about an imaginary White Paper, a Green Paper and all sorts of things, but I shall spend the next few moments directing the attention of the House to the need for a border poll.

I welcome the Bill. I congratulate the Secretary of State on the way in which he has facilitated its introduction. It is long overdue. I supported the Ten-Minute Rule Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) earlier in the year. That was superseded by the Prime Minister's declaration in his package for Northern Ireland when direct rule was introduced.

In the past, both Governments have given sincere pledges on the constitutional position of Northern Ireland. Many people say that the Bill is the be-all and end-all, but it is not. It will not stop the war in Northern Ireland. The only thing that it will do is to give people in these dark days the right to say where they stand as regards their future within the United Kingdom. That is absolutely necessary. It will also remove for the time being the question of the border from politics.

We are entering a new phase in Northern Ireland with the reorganisation of local government. We are awaiting with great interest the White Paper. Meanwhile, the border issue will be decided when the border poll takes place. That will leave the other necessary measures as top priority when we discuss the reorganisation of local government and the new legislation which will be introduced in Northern Ireland.

For far too long the border has been an issue in Northern Ireland politics. That is because the pledge given to Northern Ireland was given to the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and this will be the first time in over 50 years the people have had the right to express themselves—not the politicians, but the people. That is absolutely right, because Stormont could have taken Northern Ireland out of the United Kingdom against the wishes of the majority of the people. That was the legal position.

Now that Stormont is in suspense, where does the power lie? I take it that it lies with the Secretary of State. But the Prime Minister quite rightly foresaw the need for a border poll or plebiscite, and I am delighted that at long last we have the Bill.

I hope and believe that the poll will take the heat out of the situation. It has already been said this afternoon that there may be intimidation, that the poll should not take place during the hours of darkness and so on, that the timing should be right. But I have been in the House for a long time, and I know that on practically every measure that has come before the House during that period half a dozen Members have said, "This is not the right time to produce such a Bill". There never is a right time. I say to the Secretary of State, "Take your courage in both hands and hold the poll as soon as possible, despite all the criticisms".

I am sure the Secretary of State has received representations on behalf of the under-sheriffs and their staff, who are very worried about the problems they will face and about their remuneration. The right hon. Gentleman should look into the matter and report to the House later.

The point raised by the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) about the provisions of Clause 1(2) had also puzzled me, and I had made a note of it myself. I refer to the passage on page 2: or making further provision to control or regulate (by the imposition of criminal penalties or otherwise) activities intended to influence the result of the poll. Does that mean that no political party in Northern Ireland can campaign during the border poll? Is it possible to advertise or to take part in any sort of campaign? This vital matter should be made absolutely clear. Doing so this afternoon will take a lot of worry out of the situation. I do not believe that politicians need to run around the country knocking on doors and trying to get people out to decide their future within the United Kingdom. The people will gladly go out provided the necessary security is guaranteed.

I may not represent all the views of the party I represent here, but broadly speaking we welcome the Bill and wish the Secretary of State every success in its introduction.

4.53 p.m.

Mr. Maurice Foley (West Bromwich)

I do not want to follow the line of the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Maginnis), because I hold a totally different view. I do not live in Northern Ireland, but a person who goes to a place from time to time sees things that those on the spot have taken for granted for so long that they are conditioned in a certain way.

This is an important debate, because since the proroguing of Stormont this is the first tangible political initiative the Government have presented to the House. Therefore, it is only right and proper that we should examine it, weigh it up, argue and discuss it. That is what the debate is about.

Our reasoned amendment is no reflection on the integrity of the Secretary of State. It has been moved because in our judgment the Government's proposal is out of tune with what they promised, and may well be seen as a step back rather than a step forward. We are entitled to tell the Secretary of State that we shall vote for our amendment because we believe that it, and not the Bill, fulfils both the letter and the spirit of the Prime Minister's statement in March.

Why do we have the Bill now, and why in this form? Is it that the Government are anxious to reassure the majority? How many times must we tell people, "So long as you want to belong, no one will take that right away from you"? Are not we in effect reassuring them with a meaningless poll? We know what the result will be. But have we considered the implications and consequences that may flow from such an activity at this time? Is not there a danger that those on the majority side who have felt for so long that the Government were selling them down will now believe that the Government will bend with the wind, that they will appease and buy themselves short-term popularity, in the hope that the people will then swallow the unpalatable things that are bound to come? Or is it a Government priority in the present situation at all costs to reassure the majority, who do not need any reassurance? Will not the proposed action lead once again to a grouping along traditional lines and encourage polarisation? We must have the answers from the Government. They must tell us their motivations for what they propose, and why they are doing it now.

The Secretary of State said that the questions in the poll were simple and to the point. To a lawyer they are impeccable, and clarity itself. But to a politician they can spell all kinds of things. When someone in Northern Ireland is asked: Do you want Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom?", we here feel that the words, "on terms acceptable to the British Government", are implied even though they are not said. But those who vote, "Yes", are adding in their mind, "on terms dictated by us, the majority in Northern Ireland." Words can mean one thing here and a totally different thing in the context of Northern Ireland. Are we sure that in voting, "Yes", the majority will be de- ceiving themselves, or are we being deceived? What do they believe in when they are voting "Yes"?

The Secretary of State's first task is to declare clearly what is in the Government's mind. There is no need for any more discussions about what the Government intend to do. The Green Paper has been seen, and it is now for the Government to make up their minds. We know full well that whatever they propose, there will be those who dissent, It is a matter of the Government's will and courage. There is an urgent need for the White Paper. It is most important that it shall be produced so that the people of Northern Ireland, Ireland as a whole and Britain can see what is in the Government's mind.

My second suggestion is that if, clearly, the Government intend to go ahead with this poll, why not have the local government elections on the same day? What might this achieve? In the first instance, for the first time since 1969 it would provoke and permit discussion on issues, albeit local issues. It would encourage and produce a multiplicity of people offering themselves for election at local level. We should see the extent of the support of the extremists, be they the IRA and UDA, Vanguard, or whatever. Above all, we should be able to see what they think about the border, at the same time expressing themselves in terms of local activities and local elections. That might be a means of overcoming boycott and intimidation, and it might be a beginning of a move back to peaceful conditions in Northern Ireland.

The Secretary of State has admitted that he has changed his mind in the past. I urge him now that, on an issue of such profound importance, he should look again and change his mind once more.

5.1 p.m.

Mr. David James (Dorset, North)

I trust that I shall be permitted to go out of order for about 30 seconds to record what I believe many will feel—that is, our utter sense of revulsion at the attack on Mrs. Austin Currie last week. Many of us are rural Members with wives living substantially on their own. I am one. I hope that it will be borne home on everyone in the Province of Northern Ireland that these are people who are behaving in a bestial manner that would not even have been acceptable to the Gestapo in Belsen. This is beginning to make most of the British public heartily sick of all that is happening there.

Having been allowed that slight digression, I find myself in a peculiarly difficult position. Such rare moments as I have when I am capable of thought are usually when I am mowing my lawn. I devised a speech when mowing my lawn on Saturday, and I made a few notes. However, when I looked at the reasoned amendment, I discovered that what I had written was almost identical. Therefore I feel bound to say how much I admire the reasoned amendment. It has a wide consensus behind it. I have considerable respect for the role of the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) in this matter. We have all received communications from the New Ulster movement and the Alliance Party, which are attempting to maintain the centre—balance line. They support this view, too, and it may be that there are other Tory backbenchers who take a similar line.

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

No doubt the hon. Gentleman will agree that I am as moderate as anyone, as are my Unionist colleagues. We are taking a centre line. I think that that should be on the record.

Mr. James

I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) will vote for the Opposition amendment. Time will tell.

The reason why the Bill has been rushed forward is that my right hon. Friend became aware that what appeared to be a dragging of feet by the Government on having this border poll gave grounds for suspicion in some quarters, which were totally without foundation, that there was an element of bad faith. What proves the good faith is not the date on which the border poll is held but the date on which my right hon. Friend enacts the Bill. The very fact that, under immense pressure, Parliament is taking the Bill on the Floor of the House in one week amply discharges the burden of proof of my right hon. Friend's good will. Therefore we need not look at the poll itself as being a matter of urgency. Once we have the Bill on the Statute Book we can apply our minds to the right order of batting as between White Paper, the poll, and local government elections.

I come down very strongly on the side of those who feel that it is only reasonable that if a poll is to be meaningful people should know precisely what they are voting for and, for that, it is essential to have the White Paper first. I urge my right hon. Friend to produce the White Paper first for another quite important reason. It is that a considerable number of right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House would like to spend a week or two of the Christmas Recess going to Northern Ireland. Such visits would be more meaningful if we had a White Paper before us and could get people's reactions to it at grass roots level.

Mr. Kilfedder

A white flag would be more appropriate.

Mr. James

I never have any embarrassment when I go there. I do not need a white flag, an orange flag or a flag of any other colour. When I go. I like to meet my friends. If I go there over the Christmas period, I hope to be able to discover how they react to the White Paper. For that reason. I should like the White Paper first and if possible before the New Year so as to enable those of us who go to Northern Ireland to discuss it with our friends there.

I go along strongly with the hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Foley), who suggested that there was merit in having the poll and the local government elections at one and the same time. From a security point of view, each operation will involve sending many extra troops, at least on a temporary basis, and it would be more economical to send them once than twice. What is more, it is alleged that Sinn Fein and other way-out movements will contest the local elections. Intimidation will be much more difficult if people are going to the polling booths with two objectives in view which are no one's business but their own. The hon. Member for West Bromwich is on to a good point in suggesting that that should be the case.

I also take the view that it is necessary to have somewhat more relaxed questions. I am aware that my right hon. Friend has found that there are more points of view on Northern Ireland than there are people to articulate them and that he has been inundated with views from all sides.

There is considerable merit in the proposal of the New Ulster Movement. Its suggested first question, Do you want Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom on the terms set out in the White Paper?", seems the only realistic one to ask at the moment. Its second suggested question, Do you want eventually to live in a United Ireland brought about by free consent?", takes account of the fact that the concept of the EEC is beginning to bite north and south of the border. I do not want to pre-empt anyone else's options over the next 10, 15, or 20 years. It is entirely up to them. But the time may come when people both north and south of the border, once there are no customs duties, once there is free movement of labour, and once we are in this far greater European concept, will come to the conclusion that what people are concerned with at the moment in Northern Ireland is an utterly meaningless irrelevance in terms of the 1970s. For those reasons, I should like to see a more relaxed questionnaire.

I come to how I propose to vote tonight. I do not want to arouse unnecessary hopes in the breast of the hon. Member for Leeds, South. I have expressed a view which is strongly in line with his, which is supported by the New Ulster movement and the Alliance Party, and which is my own independent judgment. However, the hon. Gentleman and I have one factor in common. It is that we do not carry the responsibility in this matter. I am convinced that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has shown considerable flexibility of mind in the way in which he has dealt with the problem throughout, and I have no doubt that that flexibility will apply to his response to the debate. But since he carries the burden of responsibility, he is entitled to my support. Whatever his considered conclusion may be, bearing in mind that he has access to far more facts, figures, and information than I have, he will have my support.

5.10 p.m.

Dr. David Owen (Plymouth, Sutton)

The House has listened to a speech of intense moderation by the hon. Member for Dorset, North (Mr. David James). I think that many hon. Members will understand why he intends to vote as he said, though he has spoken in a somewhat different manner.

I hope that the Secretary of State will realise that the spirit of bipartisanship which has been demonstrated in the debate shows that hon. Members are fully conscious that in the streets of Northern Ireland people are being killed. We in this House are only too aware of the need to do everything possible to preserve the authority of the Secretary of State and, as far as possible, to eschew party politics in this issue. That is my attitude, and that is how I shall decide to vote.

The decision to hold a plebiscite, referendum or poll—all three being synonymous—was a major mistake by the Secretary of State. It is not against the spirit of bipartisanship to draw attention to an error, to explain why it is an error, and to hope to minimise that error.

I am fully conscious that for the Secretary of State to go back on the pledge to hold a plebiscite would have a bad effect in Northern Ireland. It would be foolish to pretend to have a situation different from that which in reality exists. In reality, I recognise, that decision has been made. I regret that decision. I hope that out of all the doubts that are beginning to be expressed in this House about referenda we shall hear no more of the periodic plebiscite but that this will be a once-only operation which, to take the Secretary of State's words, satisfies the need to "demonstrate". There may be a need to demonstrate. I reject however this way of demonstrating. I think that opinion is well known amongst the majority in Northern Ireland. I do not think we need a referendum to bring it out. But let this be the end; let us have no more of these plebiscites.

The Secretary of State should also take seriously the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) in his moderate introduction on why, while accepting this poll, he should give attention in its timing to local government elections and the White Paper.

I wrote to the right hon. Gentleman's colleague some months ago suggesting that if the plebiscite were to take place, it should coincide with the local government elections. I am convinced that if we are to get people to the polls we need more than just a plebiscite to get them there. The coinciding of the local government elections with the border plebiscite will bring a higher poll. The mere fact of having to vote on local issues, on the one hand, and the border issue, on the other, starts the process in Ireland of thinking wider and away from this one dominant issue.

Captain Orr

The hon. Gentleman's argument on the latter point is persuasive. Reverting to what he said about periodic plebiscites, may I ask him to distinguish between the periodic holding of plebiscites—I entirely agree with him that that is a nonsense—and the writing into a constitution perhaps that the constitution itself, or the position of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom, could not in future be altered without a plebiscite?

Dr. Owen

I prefer to take my stand on a representative democracy. Previously the only legislative position in Northern Ireland was in the 1949 Act, which was that alterations could not be done without the authority of the Stormont Parliament. The Stormont Parliament is prorogued, and I think that it will cease to exist. Therefore, a decision about the constitutional future of Northern Ireland should be made by its represent