NORTHERN IRELAND

§ The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw)

I beg to move, That this House takes note of the Paper for Discussion entitled "The Future of Northern Ireland I very much welcome this debate on the Paper for Discussion on "The Future of Northern Ireland", which was published on 30th October. The purpose of that paper was quite simply to provide a basis on which we in this country and the people in Northern Ireland could discuss how to take further and speedy steps forward in shaping the future of Northern Ireland. A good deal has been said in recent months on this matter, not all of it realistic. What Northern Ireland now wants is informed and responsible discussion. It seems to me right that the House should today play a leading part in the discussion because the United Kingdom Government, answerable to Parliament, have the full responsibility for any future constitutional arrangement.

The paper seeks to set out the facts about events in Northern Ireland with complete impartiality. I have been pleased to read in the Press that it is widely recognised to have done so. This is very important because any successful solution for the future of Northern Ireland must be based on the facts as they are, rather than as one section of opinion or another would like them to be.

Perhaps inevitably in an emotional situation so much of the argument put to me is based on allegations and imaginary fears and prejudices. So I ask the House at the start of the debate to consider the situation quite simply as the paper for discussion does on the basis of actual facts. Only if we do that can we hope for an informed and rational discussion of any proposals for the future in Northern Ireland itself.

I believe that it is widely recognised that any solution to the problems of Northern Ireland must be based on a combined political and military approach. There can be no purely military solution. At the same time, any political initiatives will be still-born if we fail to deal with violence. It is important to stress these facts because I would not like it to be 44 thought that when today we are discussing the political aspects, Her Majesty's Government or the House were in any way neglecting the security responsibilities or minimising the tragic loss of life, the damage to property and the suffering endured by the people of Northern Ireland in these last years.

Nor does it mean that we are overlooking the steadfastness and achievements of the security forces, both Army and RUC, under desperately difficult conditions. Nevertheless, in the debate we must try to see beyond the immediate situation since if we are too immersed in the day-to-day incidents, many of them nicely calculated to impose political pressure, we may fail to direct our attention to the long-term reforms which must be made very soon in Northern Ireland. The paper for discussion tries to take the debate off the streets and to set it in a much wider context.

I do not intend to repeat what is said in the paper. It speaks effectively for itself. I hope that it will discourage wild and irresponsible debate, of which there has been too much. I understand that there are those who have grievances and those who feel a very real sense of frustration. But whatever the sense of grievance or frustration, violence can achieve nothing. Northern Ireland has suffered greatly; the United Kingdom has suffered, too, as all those who have lost their sons serving as members of the forces know only too well. We must be responsible in discussing the future of the province.

There are those who say that the answer is quite simply to pull out troops and let the Northern Irish get on with it. That would be an abdication of responsibility. The situation in Northern Ireland is very complex and it would be a counsel of despair to say we should wash our hands of it. The people of Northern Ireland are our people and we must help them to find a solution.

Some would argue that such a solution lies with complete independence. The paper for discussion comments on this. The advocates of this course ignore the fact that Northern Ireland is part of a much wider world, and those who favour independence must show how the province, standing entirely on its own, without financial or military help on a large scale from the United Kingdom, would 45 become a viable State both economically and socially and would be accepted as such by the world at large.

The paper for discussion tries to persuade everyone to face the real facts of the situation. There is also what might be described as the simple and logical view. This says that if the majority of people in Northern Ireland decide that they wish to remain part of the United Kingdom then they should be treated in every way exactly the same as the rest of the United Kingdom. As I understand it, those who believe in that solution would not give any real responsibility for the central conduct of Northern Irish affairs to people in Northern Ireland. All legislative action and all central administration for Northern Ireland would be concentrated here at Westminster with increased Northern Ireland representation.

Personally, I believe that the record of history argues strongly against this proposal. Because Northern Ireland is across the water and is geographically part of the island of Ireland, it has different problems from the rest of the United Kingdom.

I have also found in the last seven months that people in Northern Ireland expect in many aspects of administration a form of personal service which a remote United Kingdom authority in Westminster alone could not hope to provide. Equally, I have seen for myself that in spheres such as industrial development and industrial training, Northern Ireland administration, with its admirable Civil Service, has been able to meet special problems much more successfully by action on the spot than it would have if tied completely to arrangements applicable throughout the United Kingdom. It is also significant that such complete integration has very few advocates in Northern Ireland.

Then there are the men of violence on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland who have attempted to make the province ungovernable. To what end is their behaviour directed? Are they trying to prove that they can bring law and order to the province when they have brought only murder and bloodshed? Do they give any credibility to their own programmes, so far as they are discernible, by trying to destroy law and order? 46 These men have shown only that they are not capable of taking part in the debate which is now taking place.

The paper for discussion attempts to put a reasonable limit on the options open to us all in Northern Ireland, setting a framework within which the debate should now take place. It shows that one cannot ignore the financial support which Northern Ireland receives from the United Kingdom; it shows that for the time being at least the maintenance of law and order depends upon the untiring and unselfish contributions of the armed forces; and that the United Kingdom Government must have an effective and continuing say in Northern Irish affairs to match its financial and military contributions. These are the facts of life. It is also a fact of life that Northern Ireland must be seen in a wider context—as part of Ireland and as a part of Europe. It is no good, on the one hand, denying this or, on the other, building too much on it.

As there has been considerable discussion about those paragraphs in the paper headed "The Irish Dimension", I shall at this point re-emphasise the position of Her Majesty's Government. In accordance with the specific pledges given by successive United Kingdom Governments. Northern Ireland must and will remain part of the United Kingdom so long as that is the wish of a majority of the people. Equally, it is undoubted that the sole and ultimate responsibility for any constitutional proposals must rest with the United Kingdom Government and Parliament.

At the same time, it would clearly be desirable that any new arrangements for Northern Ireland should, while meeting the wishes of Northern Ireland and Great Britain, be so far as possible acceptable to and accepted by the Republic of Ireland. Furthermore, in the context of the European Economic Community, there is a clear opportunity for developing co-operation on economic and social issues which could bring considerable benefits to the people in both the North and the South of Ireland. Indeed, before direct rule the Ulster Unionist Government were themselves anxious to promote such contacts. Nor can anyone deny that co-operation on border security would be of inestimable benefit to all concerned. 47 It is with these thoughts in mind that I welcome very much Mr. Lynch's helpful approach to this paper as outlined in his recent speech.

It is too soon for Her Majesty's Government to express any final view on what constitutional settlement would be suitable for Northern Ireland. We should first like to hear the views of this House and those of the people of Northern Ireland. I should, however, like to say this. Whatever the constitutional settlement may be, it will undoubtedly provide meaningful responsibility in Northern Ireland. The Macrory reforms have already laid down a number of functions which will have to be performed centrally in Northern Ireland; and there are, in addition, likely to be other important tasks which will undoubtedly fall to be done centrally. These are likely to be very worth while, going beyond what any region in the United Kingdom at present does, and it is no service to Northern Ireland to attempt to run down whatever eventual solution might be decided upon.

The solution will have much to offer both the majority and minority communities in Northern Ireland. The minority will know that they will henceforward have a real community of interest and that they will be able to participate in the running of their own country. Equally, if such an opportunity is to be given to the minority, they, and in particular those who seek to lead them, must be prepared to accept responsibility in the full sense of the word.

§ Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

§ Mr. Whitelaw

I would rather not be interrupted, because I wish to hear what the House has to say, and I think it only right that I should be brief.

§ Mr. Orme

It is on the key question.

§ Mr. Whitelaw

Very well.

§ Mr. Orme

I am much obliged. The right hon. Gentleman wants an exchange of views, and, surely, this is the place for it, particularly on the key point in his speech.

The Secretary of State referred to the Government's proposals which will arise after debate on the paper and which will 48 be produced in the form of a White Paper. The key question which many of us wish to pose is: will those proposals be put to the Northern Ireland people before a plebiscite takes place?

§ Mr. Whitelaw

With respect, that is exactly the sort of question which I wish to have raised in the debate. I want to hear the views of the House. That is the purpose of the discussion paper. There is certainly no commitment one way or the other on that particular issue at the present time.

I apologise to the House for not wishing to give way, but I believe that interventions, even such as that just made by the hon. Member for Salford, West, are better made in speeches, and I wish to give the maximum opportunity for as many hon. Members as possible to take part in the debate.

The majority have much to gain, too. There may be those who will say that they can only be the losers in the present situation. This is not so. What the majority community will know is that henceforward Northern Ireland will have a constitution which all people in the country will, we hope, be prepared to operate. This is a very real gain for them.

The paper for discussion is, therefore, the basis on which we can all discuss the future of Northern Ireland and reach firm decisions as soon as possible. There will now be further consultations, and these will be conducted with the utmost urgency. It will be our objective, through the plebiscite and the publication of firm proposals for the governing of Northern Ireland, to end as soon as possible the current uncertainty upon which so many fears have been feeding.

There are some people who have opted out of any constructive debate. But the others, the great majority, now look for leadership. This must come from the political parties in Northern Ireland. Posterity will not readily forgive them if at this time they do not show themselves able to take a broad view.

At the same time, we need a major effort to bring to an end the cycle of violence and counter-violence, of force and counter-force. I, for my part, will do everything I can towards this end. Those who use or threaten violence cannot be allowed to ignore the demands of a whole community for peace if that 49 demand is sustained. Everyone must now know that violence can achieve nothing. The Provisional IRA must know that the effect of their campaign is only to create new and deeper divisions in the community than ever existed before; and militant Protestant organisations must realise that threats by them merely build up support for the IRA and make the ending of conflict more remote. There must now be an overwhelming demand from both communities that violence and threats of violence must stop.

We must move on with our debate on the future of Northern Ireland so that, early in the New Year, Her Majesty's Government may make known their views on the future, building upon the result of our consultation with the parties in Northern Ireland.

It is for this Parliament to enact the necessary legislation. If it is to have any chance of success, it must give effect to what the people of Northern Ireland want, while making no unreasonable demands on the United Kingdom.

It is the people in Northern Ireland who must operate the new constitution, whatever it is, and it is for them to make known what they want. They will be much helped in this if this House remains united in its views. Northern Ireland is not, and should not be, a matter of party division here in the United Kingdom. If it does become so, there are those in Northern Ireland who will not be slow to exploit it.

I assure the House, therefore, that it will be in that spirit that Her Majesty's Government will conduct any discussion with the parties here at Westminster. Furthermore, I know that the right hon. Gentlemen opposite and their hon. Friends share this same objective with us, while we all recognise that in the final event Her Majesty's Government must take full responsibility for any proposals.

The way ahead is, as ever, beset by many difficulties and dangers. There can be few problems in which criticism is so easy and responsibility more difficult, in which destructive thought is so simple and constructive action so hard to provide.

I believe that the paper for discussion will help us to go ahead towards a genuine settlement which, if backed by moderate 50 opinion, offers a real opportunity for all the people of Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Merlyn Rees (Leeds, South)

The purpose of this debate is to discuss the future of Northern Ireland. In my belief, based on the experience of the last two or three years, it will be done in an informed and responsible way. In the last three or four years, there have been many occasions when we have discussed Northern Ireland, but usually as a reaction to events. The full story of March this year, when the Government took the historic step of instituting direct rule, has not yet been told, but I should not be surprised if that also was a reaction to events, perhaps in the short run.

The paper for discussion, well written and documented, provides the House with an occasion to look at the long-term future, and an opportunity to spell out much more clearly the steps which must now be taken by the Government. There must be a flexibility of approach. Events will not stand still. There must be a firmer course to chart. We are no longer, as perhaps we were in the days of indirect rule, afloat on a completely chartless sea in trying to find a political solution which has eluded statesmen over the centuries.

The Green Paper—it is a measure of the problem that a Green Paper has to be published without a green cover—has the merit of enclosing within its covers much of the information that we all require to come to decisions. There are three major aspects upon which the Government will have to make up their mind. These aspects will form the core of the White Paper which is to follow.

The first aspect is the link with the United Kingdom. The second is the new institution for the Government of Northern Ireland. The third is the all-Ireland institution, which is referred to in the paper for discussion. Those are, to use the jargon, the parameters of the package about which the people of Northern Ireland will have to make up their minds before we can all begin on the way forward, which is part IV of the paper for discussion. The decisions on these three points are what the future is all about.

51 First, the link with the United Kingdom, which matters to the majority of the people in the North. It is on that that they believe they can, in a phrase which is often used, be sold down the river. In paragraph 76 the emphasis is on consent. That is what the Labour Party said overwhelmingly at its party conference. It was said by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition in the Downing Street Declaration and it was one of the principles of my right hon. Friend's 15-point speech.

Consent has been the keynote of all the remarks made by the political leaders in the South. They want unity but, to use the words of the Irish Labour Party, "by persuasion, dialogue and communication". All the political parties in the South reject the use of force.

People abroad approach the Irish question in their own terms, as is shown by a glance at their newsreels. In Belgium it is seen in a Walloon-Flemish context. In the United States of America it is seen in terms of Vietnam and it is thought that a pull-out is the answer. It is not realised that a simple pull-out, as a gesture of impatience by all of us in this country, could cause only great bloodshed. Many people see the problem in colonialist terms. The curious but fundamental fact that they fail to see is that the Irish Government and the political parties in the South are not seeking unification on the same terms or in the same way as the IRA.

That raises the matter of the referendum or the plebiscite, about which I will ask some questions. Does paragraph 82 mean that further plebiscites will be held on the link? Does it mean that there will not be a once-and-for-all plebiscite but that there will be a plebiscite at intervals? Are there to be—paragraph 82 is not clear about the matter—further plebiscites on other subjects which interest other parts of the Northern Ireland community? Or is it that, while there is to be a plebiscite about the border, on other subjects there will not be such a prebiscite but—as it has been called—a pragmatic process of consultation?

The Bill is called the Northern Ireland (Border Poll) Bill, but there is no mention of the border in paragraph 82 of the Green Paper or in the questions in the 52 schedule to the Bill. Our main criticism of the referendum or plebiscite on the border is that the question is too narrow. People in the North will be asked to judge only upon part of a package which will eventually emerge in a White Paper and in legislation. The timing of the proposed plebiscite, with the wording which the right hon. Gentleman proposes, is also wrong.

Our message to the Government can best be said in the words of the Northern Ireland Labour Party and those of the New Ulster Movement. I will quote from a Northern Ireland Labour Party communication which perhaps many hon. Members have seen. The communication says: We have consistently pressed that the Whitelaw Administration should have a clear, though flexible, timetable leading to the creation of new institutions which guarantee fair government for all the people of Northern Ireland. Is this timetable we have insisted that the prebiscite must follow the publication of the British Government's White Paper so that the people of Northern Ireland are fully aware of their responsibilities and obligations if continuing to live within the U.K. We believe this course would result in a substantial non-sectarian majority voting to remain within the U.K. on the terms of the White Paper. A vote in these circumstances for the link with Britain would also be a vote in favour of new and fair institutions of government in Northern Ireland and also co-operation with the Irish Republic. The New Ulster Movement says: We are strongly of the opinion that the referendum should be held after the publication of the White Paper setting out Her Majesty's Government's proposals on the future of Northern Ireland. In quoting those two bodies I have attempted, in criticism of the plebiscite, to put the view of moderate opinion. I understand that the Alliance Party has a similar view. When the Bill comes before the House we shall pursue that argument, especially the question of timing. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to allow us to see the White Paper before the people in Northern Ireland are asked to answer the questions.

I hope that the Government will face up to the reality of election timing. It is a problem which would face us all in the United Kingdom if we were considering an election in the New Year. January and February are very bad months in this part of the United Kingdom, with darkness at four or five o'clock. 53 It has been put to me firmly by people who would have to canvass, who would have to go around the streets, that only somebody who does not realise what it is like in Belfast after four o'clock at night would be brave enough to go out canvassing. One political party told me that even in the limited canvassing that it has done during the year, its canvassers have been threatened by gunmen. I was asked, "Have you ever been threatened by gunmen when you are canvassing?"

The date of the plebiscite, purely in practical terms should be taken into account. There should also be taken into account the new register which I presume, will come out on 15th February.

§ Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson (Walthamstow, East)

Who will be canvassing for the plebiscite? Surely it is simply a question and no political party will be standing for it?

§ Mr. Rees

The hon. Gentleman will have to face the fact that some people in the North of Ireland will be canvassing. It does not require political parties, in our sense of the term, for that to happen. Would the hon. Gentleman like to be out and about on the streets of Belfast in the dark on a political matter? I would not. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that a suitable date would be 8th March or 9th March, depending upon the day of the week which is normally used for election purposes in the Province.

The second main aspect is the new assembly.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that if the Government's White Paper is issued before the plebiscite there should be specific questions about the implications of the White Paper? It would be totally unfair to ask people to say that they were for the Union plus the White Paper if they were not allowed to state clearly which part of the White Paper they were for or against.

§ Mr. Rees

The hon. Gentleman has made an important point. I was reserving the details of it for the debate next week. In effect, I was arguing that at the very least the White Paper should be published before the plebiscite, so that people who are voting to remain in the United Kingdom or otherwise may know at least 54 to some degree on what terms and in what sort of United Kingdom or part of the United Kingdom they are voting to stay.

With regard to the new assembly, "The Way Forward" part of the document spells out the criteria for the firm proposals to come. I pick out paragraph 79(b) on page 35 as an important part of the document that we shall all be considering very much in the months to come. It asserts the sovereignty of the Westminster Parliament, and accepting its sovereignty is what I understand being a member of the United Kingdom means. Those who want to remain part of the United Kingdom must accept that the United Kingdom Parliament is sovereign on the major issues of the day.

Paragraph 79(h), which talks of security and public order, asserts the need for impartiality. Here again there is the need for Westminster control of security. I know that the Secretary of State has considered this point. He must have done so because of the situation in Belfast in particular. Even with a political settlement, the problem of law and order will loom large. It will not end overnight. Lawlessness has become a way of life. The policing of some parts of the province will require special and peculiar solutions under the same control as the other areas. It is well that those of us who are putting our minds to the kind of document which is before us should face up to the fact that even if we succeed in obtaining a political solution the problem of policing some parts of the North of Ireland will be extremely difficult. In this respect, the sectarian killings, whether of Catholic or Protestant, in recent months, the origins of the UDA and the formation of the Catholic action group of ex-Service men announced this morning are relevant, because whether we like it or not, it is fear in both communities that in the first instance gave rise to such organisations. All of us who have been to Ireland realise straight away, as we must, the part that fear plays when there is no law and order enforcement body such as we have come to expect in this other part of the United Kingdom.

We are confident that new Northern Ireland institutions can be set up that will involve all the people of Northern Ireland constructively, to use the right hon. Gentleman's words. I have learned 55 to admire the work of some of the Government Departments in Northern Ireland, particularly that dealing with industrial development. We on this side of the water have much to learn from the way in which they conduct their activities. But politically the recent book by Lord O'Neill spells out a cabinet/legislature system more appropriate to the 18th century. Lord George Bentinck, before he was spurred into attendance here by what he called the traitorous action of Sir Robert Peel over the corn laws, would, it seems, have been at home in the Stormont that existed in the time of Lord O'Neill.

Such new institutions as we set up will have much to do in industrial and social development, particularly west of the Bann. This work will have to be based on a Bill of Rights, which would mean the ending of the Special Powers Act. We shall be debating this argument further when we debate the new tribunal that the right hon. Gentleman is setting up and the commission that he recently set up, which will report in the New Year. Internment has not ceased to be an important aspect of the Northern Ireland problem.

Economic problems will be a basic concern of any new assembly, but, as is seen from the South of Ireland, independence alone will not necessarily lead to a solution. It is not just a political solution that will deal with the problems of the western side of both parts of Ireland, as indeed of our own country. It is impossible to consider the economic problems of Northern Ireland in isolation from those in the South. In this field alone there is an Irish dimension, to use the phrase that the right hon. Gentleman uses in his discussion paper.

Just a year ago, on 25th November, in his now famous speech, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition put his proposals in the context of an Irish dimension. It is a measure of the progress that this dimension looms large in the discussion paper before us. The pledges on the link with the United Kingdom do not preclude the taking into account of the needs of Ireland as a whole, says the right hon. Gentleman. This will cause much heart-burning in the North among the majority, and perhaps among some of the minority.

56 I have no strong views on the form of an all-Ireland institution, which is something we must all consider, except that it should be capable of discussing economic and social matters which matter to both parts of Ireland, and, of course, security matters. There should be room for growth beyond that, given the needs of the situation. Because of its very reason to be, because of the very use of the term, an all-Ireland institution must be discussed with the Government of the South. The discussions would be practical, related to the council, but they would broaden as stated in paragraph 78. The right hon. Gentleman has deliberately made the statement, which we in the House will have to discuss again and again: It is … clearly desirable that any new arrangements in Northern Ireland should, whilst meeting the wishes of Northern Ireland and Great Britain, be so far as possible acceptable to and accepted by the Republic of Ireland, which from 1 January 1973, will … be in the Economic Community.

The institutions of the North are a matter for the people of the North. At an appropriate time they will have to be discussed with the Government of the South. Why not talk with Mr. Lynch now about all Ireland institutions? The Prime Minister has spoken to the Taoiseach two or three times, but the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland should also be involved, and not through the Foreign Office. We should consider having not just a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland but a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Affairs, who can take the wider aspects into consideration. Only by talk will it be possible for the Government in the South and their people to accept the reality of Northern Ireland. I find few in the South who believe that unification is round the corner. They talk, like the Moody and Sankey hymns of my youth, of "in the sweet by and by".

The words of the plebiscite as at present formulated might well resurrect strong feelings. Aspirations are one thing. It is time for all in the South to face reality.

People in the North face reality in one basic sense all the time. They must face up also to political reality. It is not enough for us to tell others to face up to reality; the time has come for us in this country and in this House to do the same.

57 The next step is a White Paper. I have argued the case for its timing in relation to the plebiscite. In our view it would be better to put a package to the people, but if that is not done I put the case to the Government for early elections. Next year there must be elections for the new assembly. We do not know what the political representatives to whom we speak in the North of Ireland genuinely represent. They come almost from a bygone age. The Unionist Party, which was more a way of life than a political party, has been broken asunder by the events of last March. The case for finding out what the people in Northern Ireland really want grows every day. Mr. David Bleckley, of the Northern Ireland Labour Party, who was Minister of Community Relations, made an interesting point in a letter to the Guardian recently. He said: While the immediate reconstruction continued a constituent assembly would be elected for the specific purpose of working out the shape of future government". He went on to develop that.

I have no strong view on that aspect, but it is something that we should take into account. We in this House can provide the way forward, but the people of the North must come in to tell us whom they want to work these institutions.

The question arises what happens if they reject the way forward. This would in effect disprove the basis of the approach of the Governments of both parties over the years. If we were rejected, that of itself would mean that there was no moderate majority in both communities, in both camps, which is the basis on which we have been working for four years. If we were proved to be wrong, it would mean needing to face up to a complete reappraisal of policy by any British Government, because the basis on which that Government had been working would have been shown to be false.

I still believe that there is a majority in both communities in the North of Ireland in favour of a political solution. I believe that there is a moderate majority. But political action cannot for long be continued on assumptions.

One of the problems that all of us, whatever our views, have faced over the past year has been that, because the 58 people have not had a chance to deliver their view on the subject of the Common Market, we have all been at sixes and sevens politically.

In the North of Ireland we cannot for long continue on the basis of assumption, an assumption being increasingly questioned in this country. The Government have to find a way, earlier rather than later, of bringing the people of Northern Ireland into the thinking, into working out what is to happen.

That may face us with great problems, but it will work the other way round, too. What we have now is a form of representative government—at least, one assumes so—without responsibility. We learned in the development of colonial power in the 19th century that representative government but with responsibility at Westminster does not work for long.

The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the need for bipartisanship. The common general outlook that has been maintained in the House is not, as some see it, a sort of House of Commons deal. It results from a common awareness of the nature and seriousness of the problem, stemming not only out of the pre-history in all of us but from the knowledge that political parties for 200 years have failed in Ireland. It would be a brave man who would argue that he knew the answer.

It results from a knowledge that a misunderstanding of parliamentary procedures—and it is easy for a new Member of Parliament who has been here only once or twice to misunderstand procedures, let alone those outside who are living under stresses and strains—could lead to a loss of life, and we all understand that. We choose our words carefully not because of some deal, but because it is important that people outside should understand clearly and unmistakably what we say.

Since direct rule, the Government have been moving in what we would regard as the right direction, and the right hon. Gentleman himself plays a personal part in that evaluation. We support a political solution, and the military aspect must be seen to be working to that end and not just by itself. But we criticise where we see fit, and as the Opposition we know that it is the Government who carry the 59 constitutional responsibility for the North of Ireland. Only the Governnment can have and exercise responsibility, but from this side of the House I can reply to the right hon. Gentleman that I know of no one who would play party politics just for the sake of it on a problem such as this.

The future of Northern Ireland is now ready for discussion in a much more realistic fashion. After six months of direct rule, the time has come for action We look forward to the people of Northern Ireland being given the chance in 1973 to tell us what they want. Responsible Government can come only by and through the people. It is the job of the Government now to provide the means for the moderates in both sides of the community to speak. The moderates in the North of Ireland must be liberated. We must now take the opportunity to find out what they want. In that sense, if the Government and the right hon. Gentleman continue to work in that direction, they will get our support.

§ Mr. Reginald Maudling (Barnet)

I am happy to follow the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees), whose contributions on this awesome problem have always been of the most responsible and most respected. I should like to start by congratulating my right hon. Friend on this discussion paper, which seems clear, concise, and comprehensive and to have been accepted on all sides as a fair statement of the problem.

I also take the opportunity to congratulate him and his colleagues on the steadfast way in which they have borne this responsibility over the past months. I think that I can do that without being obsequious, because for some two years I had to carry part of the responsibility now undertaken by my right hon. Friend.

In all the various tasks that I have performed, I have never known a task more haunting in its personal responsibility, when one single wrong word or wrong phrase could bring death to human beings. Every time there was an outrage and people were murdered, one felt that perhaps one had failed to do something to stop it. Logic was baffled and the policies of the illogical were difficult to discern and ancient hatreds were hard to penetrate and hard to understand. Above all, the brutality that hung over 60 the situation left one appalled. I can think of no task more difficult than that being undertaken by my right hon. Friend, and no task more rewarding than the success which I believe will come his way.

Tragedy is always the conflict not of right and wrong but of right and right, and certainly it is a tragedy of Northern Ireland that the majority is perfectly entitled to feel that it should be allowed to remain in the United Kingdom so long as the majority wills it that way and it it is equally entitled to feel horror and fury at the outrages committed by those who try to impose a minority point of view by force. At the same time, let us be quite clear that those who are members of the minority community have good reason—whatever the causes, and I will not go into those—for inevitably feeling themselves over the years to be treated as second-class citizens in their own country.

These are the realities, and, as I began to appreciate them when I was responsible, it was borne in upon me all the time that no solution was possible unless, first, one assured the majority that it would remain in the United Kingdom so long as the majority agreed to that and, secondly, one assured the minority that there would be no discrimination on grounds of creed in personal matters or in jobs, housing and so on. One must also assure the minority that it will be able to take a proper share in the government of its own country.

It was that second point that was the more difficult, the feeling that somehow if one were a member of the minority community, one could not share responsibility in the running of one's own country. This feeling was stimulated by and allied to ancient fears and it was stimulated by the backlash of IRA terrorism.

It was for that reason probably that the general nature of reform programmes was never fully understood throughout Northern Ireland. I would like to pay a most sincere tribute to Lord O'Neill, Lord Moyola and Mr. Faulkner whose work, one after the other, was a great service to their own people and who were to my personal knowledge fully and totally devoted to the cause of the reform which they were putting through. The reform programme would when complete, I am convinced, have dispensed with any 61 complaint that there was any discrimination, in the legislative structure of Northern Ireland, on grounds of race or religion. The reform programme was right, was comprehensive and was going through.

Alas, I fear it was too late. That was the simple tragic fact, tragic because a non-discriminatory situation in which everyone was given the same chance of a job and a house was no longer acceptable to the minority in Northern Ireland under the permanent domination of a Government adhering only to one religious persuasion. This is a situation brought about by history, by the growing bitterness that has sprung from the IRA compaign, a situation deliberately stimulated by the IRA which set about making the most of it, set about putting one community against another. It was certainly a situation with which we had to reckon.

It was for this reason above all that I became convinced that it was right, in the early months of this year, to transfer responsibility for security to this Parliament. That was, after all, the reality of power in Northern Ireland. The law was being maintained by the gallant men of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, backed up by the equally gallant men of the Army. It was the Army which, ultimately, was the shield for Northern Ireland and responsibility for Army policy must rest here. Therefore it was realistic and constitutionally proper that responsibility for law and order and security should be transferred to this Parliament.

§ Mr. John Wilkinson (Bradford, West)

This is a crucial point which is central to the debate. Surely on the occasion of the Downing Street meeting of 19th August, 1969, it was then agreed that responsibility for security should be transferred, broadly speaking, to the General Officer Commanding? In paragraph 21 of this document it says: The practical results of this meeting included giving the General Officer Commanding (Northern Ireland) overall responsibility for all security operations throughout Northern Ireland, with full command of the Ulster Special Constabulary and with control of the deployment and tasking of the Royal Ulster Constabulary for all matters relating to security operations. In a sense this can be rather a red herring and it is deployed as such by the opposition in Northern Ireland because since 62 1969 to all intents and purposes the responsibility for security has rested through the Army Command here.

§ Mr. Maudling

I do not think that that is quite correct but I was coming on to deal with that point. What matters is where parliamentary responsibility lies. The GOC must be responsible to Parliament and in my submission he must be responsible to this Parliament alone. My right hon. Friend said that we cannot contemplate withdrawing our forces from Northern Ireland, from part of Her Majesty's domain; that is impossible. While our soldiers still face the dangers there of murder and sniping, while these things are going on, we in this Parliament must be responsible for the security policy which the forces are carrying out.

This seemed to be an argument of constitutional force that could not be denied. I did not quite understand the strength of the reaction of some who objected to this transfer and who also believe in union with this country. Some said that they were not prepared to be reduced to the status of a county council. I am not sure whether that was a fair argument. In present conditions what is the right constitutional position of Northern Ireland with a population about the size of Warwickshire or Cheshire? Certainly the people of Northern Ireland have every right to claim to remain in the United Kingdom and to benefit from the help of United Kingdom finances and from the protection of the Army. They have the right to remain in the United Kingdom so long as the majority wishes to do so. But I do not think that they have the right to claim to remain in the United Kingdom on terms which they settle. If they stay in the United Kingdom, which all of us wish to see, it must be on the basis of accepting the supremacy of the Westminster Parliament just as any other part of the United Kingdom does.

I regret for a number of personal reasons the break that took place. But it has surely led to a situation where there is more room for manoeuvre, where we have a greater opportunity than before to hammer out a new solution for the future of Northern Ireland which is the object of this debate and the paper. The basic problems are two. There is, first, the proper degree of devolution of powers from here to Northern Ireland and, 63 second, the proper nature of the institutions to which these powers should be devolved.

Keeping security and law and order here, we should devolve as much as we can in other ways to Northern Ireland, particularly in economic and development matters. The more that can be devolved the better. I find the argument for total integration very strong, certainly in theory and in the long run it may be the answer. At the moment this is not the answer because it is not acceptable to any major part of the political spectrum in Northern Ireland.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley

Is it not a fact that, apart from the law and order situation, Stormont was in the main an administrative assembly merely rubber-stamping legislation that went through this House?

§ Mr. Maudling

Certainly not. The administration of economics and the development programmes in Northern Ireland were run extremely well by Stormont.

The second point is: What should be the nature of the institutions which carry these devolved powers? They must be elected and executive. The basic problem in either case is how to be both democratic and demonstrably fair. This is a problem in Northern Ireland which does not apply in any other part of the United Kingdom. Democracy in the parliamentary sense in Northern Ireland has produced one-party Government from the start. This was inevitable because that is the way the voting has gone.

§ Mr. Orme

Stormont was created for that purpose.

§ Mr. Maudling

The minority will not in the present situation believe that a one-party Government, permanently established, will be fair to the minority. But we cannot impose upon such a Government a permanent check from outside to ensure that it is always being fair without taking away from such a Government any real credibility. Whatever committee system there may be in a Stormont Parliament, the majority will always have the final word, as it ought to have in a democratic system.

I am forced to the conclusion, looking to the long term, that there is no lasting 64 solution possible to the problem of democracy in Northern Ireland while party politics there are on a sectarian basis. What we call democracy means a dictatorship of the party in power for the time being, fluctuating from one party to the other. That works so long as there is a change. If there is no change and no prospect of one, democracy becomes a dictatorship of one party. In the long run the only solution is one which provides for the emergence of political parties in Northern Ireland not based wholly on a sectarian system.

This is one of the main reasons why I believe we are right to go in for a system of plebiscites. We can only hope that there will be some development of non-sectarian politics in Northern Ireland in that way. We have to remove the problem of the border from active politics for a period and we can do that only by making it clear that there is no issue in practical terms on the border for a number of years. That is why I believe if we haves a plebiscite as soon as possible, followed by others at long intervals, there will be a time in between for all people in Northern Ireland who are interested in politics to settle down and work together for a country that will remain a single country. The only way in which we can hope to achieve a long-term solution of the dilemma between democracy and demonstrable fairness is by having a different political system from the present system. That may sound idealistic and it is certainly long term, but I do not see any better solution. I do not see any early or easy agreement on the details of the various plans set out in the White Paper.

§ Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East)

For many years the division in Ulster has not been basically religious and sectarian but between those who believe in a republic and those who are loyal to Britain. It is a political difference, and therefore to emphasise the sectarian division is missing the point.

§ Mr. Maudling

"Sectarian" is probably shorthand. It is not purely a religious or nationalistic division but a division which exists in practical terms when people vote. If the problem is to be resolved, there must be a political system in Northern Ireland more akin to that of the rest of the United Kingdom. But it is 65 essential to get on with it as soon as possible. More important than the minute details which cannot be agreed among the conflicting parties is a system decided by the British Government as soon as possible, set out in a White Paper as soon as possible, and the holding of a prebiscite as soon as possible, and then there will be a real chance for all people of good will in Northern Ireland to work together for the common good of a single country.

§ Mr. Russell Johnston (Inverness)

I am not sure that I agree entirely with what the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) said about the question of plebiscites. Granted that the Government's intention in introducing a plebiscite this early is to seek to remove the immediate pressure of the border before elections are held, I still think that all that will result from a plebiscite is that it will be shown that about two-thirds of the people are in favour of remaining part of the United Kingdom and one-third are not—and we know that already. I agree with the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) that before the referendum takes place it is necessary and desirable that we should know the Government's intentions with greater clarity.

However, the Government deserve much congratulation for what they have done. Some people, particularly in the Press, have said that the document we are discussing is a blank paper rather than a Green Paper—in other words, it received overall approval largely because it was non-committal and, therefore, the question was still open. I reject that view. We in the Liberal Party believe that it is an excellent document and that, in fairness, the Government must be congratulated on it.

The important point about the document is that perhaps for the first time a Government have produced a document about Northern Ireland which is sensitive to the realities there and reveals an appreciation of the fierce complexities and emotional overtones in the situation. That is new, and the Government should receive credit for it. The document also gives great cause for hope, even if it is sadly true that the reality is that the Province still teeters not too far from the edge of civil war.

The Green Paper represents an opportunity for everyone, whatever his attitude, 66 to engage, as the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said, in discussion and to reject the vicious circle of violence. The right hon. Gentleman referred in particular to people at the extremes—those who say "Not an inch" and those who say "A republic or nothing". Only the sustained force of moderation can overcome those groups, some of whose activities have often been almost malevolent.

In talking about politics to many people in my constituency and in other parts of the country, I find that the horror of people about the killings is coupled with a strong sympathy with moderate opinion in Northern Ireland. I do not think that those who say that we must get out of Northern Ireland are of any significance or carry any political weight. However, there is undoubtedly a weariness that almost makes people come to terms with reading almost every day in the newspaper that another soldier has been killed. What they cannot come to terms with are incidents like that last week concerning a girl of 13 years of age who, perhaps having spoken to a British soldier, had her head shaved and was subjected to torture for some hours. People who do that to a mere child cannot, in my opinion, or in the opinion of any thinking person in this country, be reckoned to be political people with whom one can deal.

What must be emphasised to people in the rest of the United Kingdom is that barbarous happenings of that kind are in no way representative of the people of Northern Ireland. The trouble is that it is those events which obtain publicity. The many individual contacts across the sectarian curtain which repeatedly take place cannot, for obvious reasons, be given equivalent publicity, although they are far more important. We must emphasise to people in Northern Ireland that there must he an aggressive assertion of moderation, if that is not a contradiction in terms.

I appreciate that a number of hon. Members wish to speak and, therefore, I do not propose to refer in detail to the evidence given by the Ulster Liberal Party which is contained in Annex 8 of the discussion paper, save to say this. That evidence has the full support of the Parliamentary Liberal Party. Ulster Liberals are a very small band, but we 67 are proud of the consistent record of moderation and total rejection of sectarianism which they have maintained throughout this sorry time. I refer particularly to Miss Sheelagh Murnaghan. There is reference in paragraph 64 of the discussion document to a proposed Bill of Rights. Miss Murnaghan introduced such a Bill in four successive years in Stormont and has done a great deal of pioneer work in this respect.

I wish to make three short points. First, any formula for government—and that is what we are talking about, a formula for a new Government in Northern Ireland—must permit the minorities to participate by election and not by selection. That is extremely important. It was suggested in certain parts of the evidence that it would be acceptable if minorities were selected for committees by the Prime Minister. That would be totally unacceptable. Minority interests must be assured by direct election. Any solution must embody recognition of the status of all people in the community as full citizens.

Secondly, I agree with both Front Bench spokesmen that responsibility for security must remain in Westminster. There is also agreement across the parties that the existence of the person of a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland must continue, although I listened with interest to what the hon. Member for Leeds, South said about creating a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Affairs in the context of the relationship with the Irish Republic and the entry of the Republic and this country to the European Economic Community.

I think, thirdly, that, while relations between North and South would have been infinitely better now had it not been for the IRA campaign, I agree very much with what the Secretary of State has said about the attitude of Mr. Lynch. He himself has his own difficulties, and he has been extremely helpful in what for himself is a difficult position.

I would put three brief questions in conclusion. First of all, I wonder—the Government must be considering it—whether they are in practical terms talking with the Irish Republic, and talking in terms of conditions in Northern Ireland, about the development of an effective regional policy within the European Economic Community, because 68 clearly, desirably, the argument for this requires the co-ordination of regional policy throughout the whole of the island of Ireland.

Secondly, the hon. Member for Leeds, South referred to internment, although the Secretary of State did not refer to it, if I remember. This will remain an intensely difficult issue. I say very tentatively—and I think that at this stage all one's words ought to be tentative—that I wonder whether there is any possibility of using non-British or even non-Irish judges and tribunals for dealing with those interned without trial. Within the Community we now have Danish judges and other judges. Already, with entry into the Community, one has acceptance of certain common legal institutions. This may be something which both sides in Northern Ireland would recognise more readily and accept more readily in the present situation.

Lastly, I return again to the question of the referendum. I think the Secretary of State ought to give very serious consideration to what the hon. Member for Leeds, South said. It is my personal opinion, but I do not like referenda as a method of government; I do not think they help. In the end some proportional system, towards which the Government are moving, will more effectively ensure representation for minorities. The Government must think carefully about the kind of questions which are asked.

Nevertheless, I repeat that I think the Secretary of State, in an intensely difficult situation, and under great personal pressure, has produced a document which is of immense value.

§ Captain L. P. S. Orr (Down, South)

I should like to start by congratulating, if I may, the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees), who led for the Opposition, upon his elevation to the Shadow Cabinet. It is well deserved. I may say I do not agree always with his analyses or conclusions, but there is no doubt that there is no one in the House who has taken more trouble to try to understand our problems in Northern Ireland, or who has devoted more indefatigable energy to them, and he has put his views at least fairly.

69 I hope the hon. Member will forgive me if I do not follow him on the question of the referendum vis-à-vis the White Paper. It is an exceedingly important subject, one which we ought to think about very carefully, because on the one hand one wants a clear-cut desision soon, but, on the other hand, the people of Ulster also want uncertainty about the union to be relieved by a referendum. Therefore, I hope that we shall discuss this very fully when we discuss the Second Reading of the plebiscite Bill.

I was, to say the least of it, not very popular in this House in March when the proposal for direct rule was put before the House and when the Northern Ireland (Temporary Provisions) Bill was going through. I said then that the policy was a recipe for bloodshed. Some thousands of explosions and 334 deaths later I am content to leave history to judge whether my judgment in that case was right. I think it is wrong today that we should go back over the ground. What is happening now is that we are having a discussion how to end this hiatus, this interregnum, which has been imposed upon our people and the best way of bring it to an end.

Fundamental to this, and before we come on to the document itself, there is one underlying problem, which the House must understand is a reality, unless we are to have a purely academic discussion, and the reality is that, whatever may come out of our deliberations today, whatever the Government may produce in the form of a White Paper or of legislation, whatever be the political settlement, it has got to be enforced. Order and law must be enforced in the long run. Therefore, the primary discussion we ought to be having—and the Green Paper does not deal with this—is how in the end the soldiers are to be got off the streets of Belfast and back to their garrisons, how the military commitment is to be reduced. No matter what arrangements we make for the future, no matter what be the outcome in Northern Ireland, or whatever be in the Government White Paper, in the long run someone has got to find a method of substituting unarmed policemen for armed soldiers. There is a gap which has got to be filled.

It was filled in 1920—and it is curious, in a way, that the Green Paper did not 70 include this in the historical analysis—by the then United Kingdom Government, which was a Liberal Coalition Government, by the formation of the Special Constabulary, the A, B and C Specials. They remained under United Kingdom control for three years. At the end of the three years the power over security was transferred to the Northern Ireland Government, as the military commitment was reduced purely to that of a garrison. Whether Ministers or this House or anybody else likes it or not, something like that has got to be done in this case. Whether it is done by increasing the numbers of the police, by increasing the police reserve, by changing the role of the police reserve, or by altering part of the role of the Ulster Defence Regiment, or however, it is a problem which is fundamental to this debate, and that is the problem to which the House ought to address itself during our discussions upon the Green Paper.

The Green Paper has had universal approbation. It is a document which has succeeded in pleasing Mr. Lynch, Mr. Faulkner, Mr. John Hume—

§ Rev. Ian Paisley

And Senator Kennedy.

§ Captain Orr

—and Senator Kennedy. It is, therefore, something of an achievement. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not think I am striking a discordant note, but I myself cannot possibly give it any kind of a wholehearted welcome, and for these reasons.

First, it should have been a White Paper, and I have put this view to my right hon. Friend. Northern Ireland having had direct rule, the Darlington conference and an endless series of speeches, the Government are mistaken in not publishing the White Paper. We should now be debating the Government's proposals with a view possibly to modifying them here and there.

My second objection is that it is a pity that the Green Paper includes an historical section, which cannot possibly be accepted by everyone as an objective presentation. It is folly to have included it at this stage because many people have made parts of that historical section their prime objection to the document. Its inclusion has allowed organisations to base their opposition to the document 71 upon the ground that the historical section is biased. Those are two small objections.

My real objection to the Green Paper is that it is so well written. It is written with extraordinary skill, and whoever wrote it deserves the warmest congratulations of his masters. I have always thought that the purpose of the English language was to clarify and not to obscure. There are times when obscurity is valuable; for example, when the language of diplomacy is obscured to enable people who are fundamentally in agreement to find a way of saving face and moving from one position to another. But it is dangerous in the extreme to use language to cover fundamental disagreements.

Paragraph 78 under the heading "The Irish Dimension" illustrates what I have said. My right hon. Friend repeated these words in his speech: any new arrangements for Northern Ireland should, whilst meeting the wishes of Northern Ireland and Great Britain, be so far as possible acceptable to and accepted by the Republic of Ireland".

§ Mr. Whitelaw

It is important to read the whole paragraph from the start. My hon. Friend has left out the words: It is therefore clearly desirable". Those words convey an important part of the sense of the paragraph.

§ Captain Orr

I am much obliged to my right hon. Friend. I did leave out those words, and I intended to refer to them. It is that combination of words: It is therefore clearly desirable … so far as possible". to which I profoundly object. Those words conceal, and they give what may or may not be the true impression. If we want the arrangements for the future of Northern Ireland to be acceptable to and accepted by the Irish Republic, the words are unnecessary. If, on the other hand, it is thought conceivable that any arrangements which included Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom could be acceptable to tike Irish Republic, the words are misleading. The words are "It is desirable"—perhaps I would concede to my right hon. Friend that it is desirable. One can always desire the impossible.

72 It is clearly an impossibility that the Irish Republic, with its long historic claim upon Northern Ireland, will ever accept an arrangement which meaningfully retains Northern Ireland within the Union, and makes it plain that Northern Ireland is to remain within the Union for all foreseeable time, which is what the loyal people of Northern Ireland want. It is impossible that such a situation should be acceptable to or accepted by the Irish Republic.

Therefore, the inclusion of these words has concealed what Ministers may have in mind. Someone is being deceived, either the Irish Republic or the Loyalists of Ulster. I beseech my right hon. Friend either in winding up or in the White Paper to clarify this point. We cannot found a a policy upon this kind of fudging and confusion.

§ Mr. Dick Douglas (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire)

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who objects to the inclusion of an historical analysis, willing to accept a situation in which the errors of history are perpetuated for all time?

§ Captain Orr

Before answering that intervention, I shall have to have knowledge of the error of history to which the hon. Gentleman refers. There is a tendency for historical errors to be perpetuated for a long time. If an historical error has been made, I do not consider that it should be perpetuated, but I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman's intervention without knowing what he means.

The future must be based upon Northern Ireland within the Union. That is the wish of the vast majority, as will be shown by the plebiscite.

§ Mr. James Wellbeloved (Erith and Crayford)

Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman accept that the future of Northern Ireland depends on the majority wish of the people of Great Britain as well as the majority wish of the people of Northern Ireland?

§ Captain Orr

Yes. For example, if the people of the Isle of Wight were asked by plebiscite whether they wished to become part of the Republic of France, I concede that we should all have a say in that. The plebiscite is merely a way of underlining, presumably for foreign consumption, that the majority of the 73 Ulster people wish to remain British, as they have been for as long as the United Kingdom has existed.

Within that, what are the arrangements to be made? The Green Paper goes into a great many details about this method or that. I am not concerned with those trivia. There are really two broad propositions within the Union. The first is that one should see a Parliament and Government in Northern Ireland with powers which are broadly commensurate to those which the old Parliament and Government had, perhaps reformed as to membership and franchise, but powers broadly equivalent to those of the 1920 Act. The other one is full integration, along the lines advocated by my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and his party, with more Members here at Westminster from Northern Ireland and a local assembly or what my hon. Friend called a Greater Ulster Council on the lines of the GLC.

Either of those two propositions would be acceptable to the broad majority of the people of Northern Ireland. At present, because their Parliament was removed as a result of a concession to force, the majority of people would wish to see it restored for that very reason. But broadly within the Union either of those propositions would be acceptable. What would not be acceptable is a solution which is neither one nor the other. That would be a denial of democracy. The setting up of a Parliament of Northern Ireland with what amounted to little more than local government powers without at the same time increasing the representation here in order to criticise the Secretary of State and to examine his legislation in a proper parliamentary manner would not be acceptable.

I hope that Her Majesty's Government are not thinking of having it both ways by producing a solution which is neither proper integration within the Kingdom nor proper devolution as provided by the Act of 1920, both of which would be broadly acceptable to the large spectrum of moderate loyalist opinion in Ulster. I hope that they are not thinking of producing a solution that falls between the two. That would not be acceptable to the majority of opinion in Ulster.

We shall move on shortly to the White Paper, and we shall see what the Govern- 74 ment have in mind. I hope that it will be clear and that the Government will show how any suggested settlement will be enforced. I agree with the hon. Member for Leeds, South. We want some kind of General Election in Ulster soon in order to see who really represents whom. But we must have it when we know the Government's view, and it must be capable of being tested in a democratic manner, not by referendum but by a General Election.

If these essential precautions are taken, if proper arrangements are made for the means of enforcement and if due account is taken of the necessity for re-enforcing the Union, I believe that we can go forward hopefully to a new future in Northern Ireland based upon fairness and justice to all with everyone of good will having a part to play in central Government. If we succeed in that, we shall be able to get back those people who believe in politics rather than in violence and we shall see good neighbourliness between ourselves and our neighbours in the south. But it must be based upon will and clarity of position. Above all, the position that must be clarified is that which ensures that Northern Ireland remains for the foreseeable future part of this great Kingdom, united by the inclusion of Ulster as it was at the very beginning.

§ Mr. Gerard Fitt (Belfast, West)

What we have just heard from the hon. and gallant Gentleman for Down, South (Captain Orr) is tantamount to a total rejection of the proposals contained in the White Paper. During his remarks he said repeatedly that he wanted the return of Stormont. However, the decision taken by this Parliament and Government was that Stormont as we had known it in Northern Ireland for 50 years was totally unacceptable not only to both sides of the House but to a considerable minority of the people of Northern Ireland. I should have thought that the Green Paper spelt out clearly that in no circumstances could there be a return to the old type Stormont which had been such a disaster in Northern Ireland.

It appears to me that the Green Paper rejects totally the idea of complete integration advocated by political spokesmen in Northern Ireland, just as it rejects the 75 idea of UDI proposed by the Vanguard movement. What it set out to do was to create objective discussion on what is the situation in Northern Ireland today and what is to be its future.

I am inclined to agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South, who says that, while he rejects specifically some of the proposals, again there are no clear attitudes to define in what circumstances Northern Ireland will be allowed to remain part of the United Kingdom. On whose terms will it be? Will it be under the terms laid down by this House or under those dictated by the Vanguard movement, LAW, UDA and all the other extreme Unionist sections in Northern Ireland?

Living in Northern Ireland as I do, I know that the plebiscite that we have been told is about to take place will answer nothing. The borders of Northern Ireland were drawn deliberately to give a permanent majority and a permanent minority. To realise that, one has only to recall that Lord Carson said in the House of Lords in 1934 that before setting up a Parliament in Belfast the Government went into the population figures in the counties of Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan to see whether it would be possible to rule the ancient Province of Ulster from Belfast, but, alas, the Government found that the figures were against them. In other words, in the nine counties of the ancient Province of Ulster there was a majority against partition, and, with the coming into being of the Northern Ireland Unionist Party, it was decided that there must be an enforced solution.

There was an enforced solution in 1920. British military might was able to enforce the setting up of a six-county State with a permanent majority and a permanently frustrated minority. One can see the results of 50 years of a one-party State.

A little earlier, we all listened intently to a former Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling). There are many in this House now who know a great deal more about what is happening in Northern Ireland than they did in 1969, 1970 and 1971. At last the light has begun to dawn.

76 The hon. and gallant Member for Down, South, took a great deal of offence at the historical background contained in the Green Paper. It is a truthful, objective background. It sets out all the wrongs in the Northern Ireland system and the one-party State that has existed since 1920. I also think that it is a damning indictment of the inactions of successive Governments at Westminster, because they were afraid to deal with the Unionist population, the Unionist majority and the Unionist dictatorship. British Governments have allowed themselves to be blackmailed over the years. That is why today there are armed legions or para-military forces—the UDA, LAW, the Vanguard movement—which are once again intent on blackmailing the Government into accepting their wishes.

I warn the Secretary of State, although I do not believe that he needs any warning, that if he allows himself to be blackmailed by these extremist forces, as successive Governments have allowed themselves to be blackmailed, the present figure of 600 dead in Northern Ireland will seem very small, because the dead will be counted in thousands, if not in hundreds of thousands.

I am the first to recognise that the Secretary of State has a tremendously difficult job. I know that there are many moderate people in Northern Ireland who would wish to assist him in any way they could.

I lodge my most vehement objections against that part of the Green Paper which makes provision for the holding of a plebiscite. Everyone knows what the answer will be. The border was drawn in 1920 to give a permanent majority. We all know that there will be a majority against inclusion in the Irish Republic.

Let us analyse the meaning of the majority. If the plebiscite is held under the present arrangements, there will be two straight questions: "Do you want Northern Ireland to be included in the Republic? Do you want to maintain the links with Great Britain?" How many people will put "Yes, we want to maintain the links with Great Britain"? The Northern Ireland Labour Party is completely opposed. The Vanguard movement—those who espouse UDI—will say, "Yes". The LAW movement, the crowd of Fascists masquerading under the name 77 of trade unionists, will say "Yes". The Alliance Party will say "Yes". Certain sections of the Unionist Party will say "Yes". All those elements will want to remain part of the United Kingdom, but all in different circumstances. The "Yes" vote when it is counted will tell us nothing.

That is why I agree with what many hon. Members have said from this side. Although I oppose the holding of a plebiscite, if a plebiscite is to be held the White Paper spelling out the Government's proposals should be printed first, and there should be a large number of questions: "Do you wish to remain part of the United Kingdom on our terms? Will you accept United Kingdom laws on our terms? Will you accept that you have so abused security for 50 years that never again will it be given into the hands of the powers-that-be at Stormont'? Will you accept that the British forces in Northern Ireland will act in an impartial way and not under the dictates of Unionist extremists?"

All those questions could be asked. Instead, we are told that there will be one or two questions. I have already heard—only time will prove whether it is right—that at this point in time the Government have said that there will be two questions and that they will accept no amendments, however reasonably they may be, to the plebiscite Bill which it to come before the House. It shows the intransigence of the Government that they have once again allowed themselves to be dictated to by Unionist extremists.

The two questions that the Government propose should be asked will not bring us any nearer a solution. When the border was set up in 1920 the fact of life was that there were 65 per cent. Protestants and 35 per cent. Catholics. As a Socialist, I have always abhorred the sectarian politics that have operated in Northern Ireland since then. By holding the plebiscite with these two questions the Government are saying to the Catholics "Do you want inclusion in the Republic?" and to the Protestants "Do you want to maintain the links with Great Britain?" In other words, far from taking the border and sectarianism out of the political atmosphere, the Government are throwing it slap bang into the middle of 78 politics. We know what the outcome will be.

In this situation I believe that the plebiscite is uncalled for. I recognise that when the package was brought before the House in March of this year the plebiscite was a part of it, but people thought that it could be forgotten about, that they would not have to face the issue. The situation in Northern Ireland being what it is, we shall be forced to face it.

On the question of security, I have said that I do not want security to be given back into the hands of any Stormont Parliament. In saying so I am not saying that I am pleased with security as it is at present operated in Northern Ireland. It is clear to me that the security forces in Northern Ireland are leaning heavily on one section of the population. On the day that the Green Paper was issued and the Secretary of State said that we would like all reasonable people to read the document and give their opinions on it, 2,000 members of the security forces carried out a house-to-house search in my constituency—the Dock division. After six or seven hours of entering people's houses and tearing their furniture apart, the security forces left having found absolutely nothing. However, they succeeded in antagonising every household in my constituency. One wonders on what directions the security forces were acting when they took part in that operation.

Last Saturday morning a Belfast local newspaper carried the report of the case of a person who had been brought before the courts and charged with stealing £200. The accused's legal adviser, pleading for leniency for his client, said "If you will go lenient with him, your lordship, he promises to join the UDR next week." The judge—I can give time and date and name of persons involved, if required—said "All right. Provided that you join the UDR I will not send you to prison."

Is that the type of person we want in the UDR? Is that the type of person who will be a member of the security forces operating in Northern Ireland? I thought that before the War, in the early 1930s—the hungry 1930s—people were given the opportunity of joining the Army. It is this same Army that must be patrolling in the Dock constituency and in Ballymurphy. We do not want that type of criminal in the UDR or in any other 79 regiment. We must be very careful about the type of personnel we have in the security forces in Northern Ireland.

The hon. and gallant Member for Down, South has said repeatedly that we must be able to enforce whatever proposals are put forward. The hon. and gallant Member should by now have lived long enough to realise—if he has not, everyone else in the House has—that no political solution can be enforced on the Northern Ireland situation. There are 21,000 members of the British forces now in the streets of Northern Ireland. Many members of the security forces have unfortunately and tragically lost their lives.

§ Mr. Wellbeloved

Murdered.

§ Mr. Fitt

I agree; many of them have been murdered. Many members of the security forces now serving in Northern Ireland were forced to join the security forces because of the economic policies carried out by this Government. These men are on the streets of Northern Ireland trying to impose a solution. It is impossible for any military might now to impose a solution in Northern Ireland.

One hon. Member interjected during the speech of the former Home Secretary that security had been transferred from Stormont to the General Officer Commanding in 1969, so that no great change came about in March of this year. In 1969, 1970 and 1971 the Stormont Government were still passing legislation such as the Criminal Justice (Temporary Provisions) Act, which is still in force. It was the Stormont Government which introduced internment and detention. It was the Stormont authorities which brought to the law of the land all the oppressive legislation of those years. If that legislation was brought in with the concurrence or connivance of this Government, all I can say is that it is no credit to them.

The party which I lead in Northern Ireland agrees with the paragraph of the Green Paper which strives to spell out the Irish dimension. The inclusion of this paragraph tells us for the first time that a Conservative Government, with the support of the Labour Opposition, recognise that Ulster is in Ireland, that Ulster people are Irish people, and that sooner or later the Irish people will have 80 to be given the opportunity to determine their own destiny.

I have repeatedly said, and I am sure that most people with any understanding of affairs in Northern Ireland will agree, that Northern Ireland cannot be absorbed into the Republic overnight, that Northern Ireland cannot be coerced into joining the Republic and that people cannot be shot or bombed into joining the Republic. As a Northern Irishman, I take the view that the only way in which Ireland can be united is by consent.

I am not one of those who believe that the present polarisation in Northern Ireland, bad though it is, will be there for all time. The time will come when Ulster men and women, Protestant and Catholic, will recognise that they have a true identity as Irishmen. The world will change, though the Unionist Party will not, and the people of Ulster will recognise that their future lies in a united Ireland.

I say this particularly to my Protestant constituents and to those who have opposed me over the years because of my religion or theirs. I recognise that there are many things in the Republic of Ireland as now constituted which are offensive to the Protestant majority in Northern Ireland. I recognise, too, that the standard of welfare benefits in the Republic is inferior to those that which can be obtained in Northern Ireland. As a Socialist, I should be the last person to advocate an overnight change in the situation, with a consequent reduction in welfare benefits, or that the offensive parts of the constitution should not be altered.

The change must be gradual. It will happen not within days or weeks but possibly within years, and it can be helped by the Ulster people and by this Government. If the Government were to listen to the advice given to them by the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South, they would say "We cannot ever talk about a united Ireland, we cannot ever talk about the time when the border will be abolished, because it will bring a backlash from the Protestant people, and thousands will be killed." We have heard that view expressed in so many different ways, and that is the import of the threat that is being issued sotto voce here.

81 The Green Paper opens up the way for discussion. It spells out the alternatives which face not only the Northern Ireland people but the Irish people and the British people, too. One of my hon. Friends asked the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South whether he thought that the people of the United Kingdom should have a say in whether the troublesome little place known as Northern Ireland should be allowed to continue as part of the United Kingdom. The Green Paper says that the population of Northern Ireland accounts for 2.5 per cent. of of the total population of the United Kingdom. If one considers those members of the community who wish to maintain a United Kingdom link, one realises that they represent only 1.6 per cent. of the total population of the United Kingdom. I cannot see any Government in Great Britain, be it Conservative or Labour, for ever being dictated to by 1.6 per cent. of the population.

Now that the discussion has begun we must continue by all means to bring about a political solution to the problems which beset Northern Ireland, but in seeking that solution we cannot exclude the Government of the Republic. We live on the same island, and, as one paragraph of the Green Paper says, a solution should be acceptable to or accepted by the Government of the Republic. Northern Ireland cannot remain isolated from the 26 other counties in the island of Ireland. It is impossible for it so to remain.

I have said before, and I repeat now, that before the necessary legislation is brought to the Floor of the House discussions should take place between the Government, the interested parties in Northern Ireland and the Government of the Republic. Make no mistake about it: if the Government, after listening to advice, from wherever it comes, decide to introduce proposals which say, in effect, that the Irish people in the 26 counties have no say in the matter, that this is nothing to do with them, that this is what the Government intend to do having taken advice from the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South, and that they intend to impose the proposed solution, they will bring in a recipe for serious trouble in Ireland, and we have had too much trouble and too 82 much death and tragedy over the last three or four years to want to see a continuation of it in the island of Ireland.

I suggest that the Government should engage at the earliest possible opportunity in discussions with the many moderates in Northern Ireland, both Catholic and Protestant, who want to see an end to violence. A solution can be found only by engaging in a dialogue with those people. We cannot return to the situation which has existed up to now of one party being in complete and absolute control. The ideal of one day living in a united Ireland should not be labelled as a crime, which it has been for 50 years. People in Northern Ireland are entitled to say that they wish to maintain the links with Great Britain, but, them having been given that right, the minority in Northern Ireland should be given the right to say that, although they are now citizens of the United Kingdom, they want to work peacefully towards achieving the unity of their country. That should not be regarded as a crime. That should not be regarded as a reason for bringing people before the courts under the Criminal Justice (Temporary Provisions) Act and detaining or interning them.

The hon. Member for Wokingham (