EXERCISE OF EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE POWERS IN N.I.

§ Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East)

I beg to move Amendment No. 8 in page 2, line 8, leave out: '(and no writ need be isued to fill any vacancy)'. One must examine the intention of the Government in introducing this Bill. In the House on Friday the Prime Minister said: The United Kingdom Government remain of the view that the transfer of this responsibility to Westminster is an indispensable condition for progress in finding a political solution in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Government's decision therefore leaves them with no alternative to assuming full and direct responsibility for the administration of Northern Ireland until a political solution to the problems of the Province can be worked out in consultation with all those concerned. In other words, the Government have stated quite clearly that this Bill means what it says; it is a temporary provisions Bill giving the Government time to work out a "political solution".

My right hon. Friend enlarged on what he had said by adding: We remain determined to find means of ensuring for the minority as well as the majority community an active permanent and guaranteed rôle in the life and public affairs of the Province."—[Official Report, 24th March; Vol. 833, c. 1860–2.] If that is so, it is only reasonable that, the Parliament in Northern Ireland having been prorogued rather than dissolved, by-elections should take place should there be vacancies among those elected to serve at Stormont so that at the end of 12 months the Parliament in Northern Ireland will be ready to resume its functions of helping to govern Northern Ireland.

I argue this particularly strongly, because hon. Members will discover that the business which has normally been conducted at Stormont will place much too heavy a burden on the British House of Commons. Already we have difficulty dealing with the affairs of Scotland and Wales, together with the general affairs of the United Kingdom. There are many detailed matters which are considered 449 daily at Stormont. Much legislation is passed through that place.

I believe that it must be the intention in the long term to restore a democratically elected Government in Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend who has taken on the onerous job of looking after the affairs of Northern Ireland should make full use of the knowledge and experience which are available in Northern Ireland.

I have greatly regretted reading statements which have been made in the heat of the moment in Northern Ireland which seem to indicate that many leading political figures there are not prepared to co-operate. Indeed, confidence in Northern Ireland has been greatly shaken by Her Majesty's Government's action, no less because of the manner in which the suspension of Stormont has been effected.

It was despicable of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to put conditions to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland which my right hon. Friend knew were totally unacceptable and which he knew that the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland could not accept and remain leader of his party in Northern Ireland. If it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to suspend Stormont, they should have done this properly rather than put unacceptable conditions to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland.

As a result of this action, confidence has been lost in Northern Ireland. It is vital that those in Northern Ireland who have taken an interest in politics and who have experience in political affairs should be encouraged to come forward and help my right hon. Friend in his difficult task in the coming year. Only by accepting an Amendment such as this—that is, to allow by-elections to be held in the coming year—can the Government show their good will and help to restore the confidence of those affected in Northern Ireland.

I remember clearly that when this trouble started in 1969 the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland carried the banner "One man, one vote". Those concerned meant one man one vote in local authority elections. If they were sincere, surely it cannot have been their intention to secure the suspension of the 450 democratically elected Parliament in Ulster. If that banner was nothing but a guise covering the intention to achieve something else which they were not prepared to display—namely, their intention completely to overthrow the constitution of Northern Ireland—hon. Members opposite, including the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose), who has taken a keen interest in these matters, should support this move to restore the elected Parliament in Ulster.

§ Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

My hon. Friend is speaking about political slogans. Does he agree that one good slogan for Northern Ireland would be "One people, one Parliament", meaning this Parliament?

§ Mr. McMaster

No, I do not. This is why I have tabled this Amendment and the other Amendments standing in my name. A system of local Parliaments covering not only Northern Ireland but Scotland and Wales is desirable. I am dealing now strictly with the situation in Northern Ireland.

My hon. Friend must be aware of the very great volume of work in the British House of Commons. He must appreciate that it would be impossible for the House of Commons to be expected to deal with all the details of Ulster, particularly in view of the distances involved and the fact that the Irish Channel provides a geographical barrier which tends to produce in Northern Ireland a feeling that the inhabitants there cannot take their grievances so readily to Westminster, both because of Westminster's greater pre-occupation with the affairs of the nation as a whole and because of the physical distances involved. Therefore, the matters with which Stormont has dealt up to now are ideal matters for a local Parliament.

I therefore believe that if my right hon. Friend accepted the Amendment he would do something to restore confidence in Northern Ireland, together with the statement which has been made by the Government that they intend first to restore peace in Ulster. The Government might well say categorically that they are not prepared to restore peace at any price—in other words, that they are not prepared to sell out Northern Ireland. If this indeed is their intention, I suggest that they accept the Amendment.

§ Mr. George Cunningham (Islington, South-West)

I oppose the Amendment. We are arranging in the Bill to deprive a certain number of representatives of their jobs, but we are providing to go on paying them. In the circumstances, that is a perfectly proper thing to do. I understand that there are two vacancies at Stormont at present, and there may be others during the year. To provide that people should be elected to fill those vacancies and be paid accordingly when there is no task to be performed is totally unjustified.

The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) suggests that, as it is not the Government's declared intention permanently to abolish Stormont, it should be kept in moth balls—totally in moth balls—so that it can be reactivated at whatever is the right time. If and when it is reactivated, there will be plenty of opportunity, when the job of being a Member of Stormont is re-created, to issue the writs and fill the vacancies.

§ Mr. McMaster

The hon. Gentleman is misconstruing my remarks. The whole purport of my argument was not that Stormont should be kept in moth balls but that it should be kept alive and that its Members should be encouraged to feel that it is still alive and to come forward and help my right hon. Friend in his difficult job in the year ahead. That is one of the reasons behind the Amendment.

§ Mr. Cunningham

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman who is to be the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will want a great number of people to come forward and assist him in his task and to serve on the Commission, and so on. That is no reason why some people who have not performed any similar function in the past should be paid for doing so, on one basis as full representatives, while others will presumably be able to recoup only their expenses.

If and when Stormont is reactivated, that will be the proper time to issue the writs. If and when Stormont is reactivated, the situation in Northern Ireland is likely to be of a kind when it would be sensible to hold elections to fill vacancies. In the present circumstances in Northern Ireland, to go through the process of holding constituency elections 452 not to get working representatives but to get people who are immediately put into suspense but are paid for being representatives would be an act of folly.

§ Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson (Walthamstow, East)

I rise to speak in support of this Amendment because it goes to the very heart of whether we believe that one day Stormont will be reactivated as the Parliament of Northern Ireland or whether we have written it off but are not prepared to say so.

The hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) made the point that it seems foolish to have by-elections when the person who is elected cannot do anything and that we should wait for the moment when we reactivate Stormont, if we do, before filling such vacancies. I would remind him that the prorogation of Stormont is only for 12 months and, as many of us in this House who have had to wait for their by-elections to come up will know, very many months often elapse between the moment a vacancy occurs and the time the writ is issued. Therefore, the idea that the moment a vacancy occurs a writ is issued is far from the truth.

But if it is our intention to maintain Stormont as the structure of a possible Government for Northern Ireland, then by the same token, and bearing in mind that a General Election in Northern Ireland is not expected for some years, these vacancies must be filled so that if after 12 months we decide to put Stormont back we put back a complete Parliament for Northern Ireland. Let us not forget that we are talking about the representatives of the people of Northern Ireland, not about any section of that people.

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, when he made his statement last Friday about the prorogation, said: Our immediate proposals are put forward in an endeavour so to change the climate of political opinion in Northern Ireland that discussions can be resumed in an effort to reach agreement on a new way forward to this end. It is our intention, as soon as circumstances permit, to promote the necessary consultations about the future structure of Government in Northern Ireland."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd March, 1972; Vol. 833, c. 1862–63.] Of course, those words could mean that we are thinking of some totally different political structure. Conceivably, we do not believe that Northern Ireland should 453 have a Parliament again, but we have not said so in this Bill. We have only introduced a Bill to prorogue Stormont for one year. Therefore, following the intention of that Bill, it seems to me that if we accept the words for what they mean we must maintain Stormont as an entity in suspended animation which can be brought to life whenever we so desire.

§ Mr. Angus Maude (Stratford-on-Avon)

It seems to me that this is something at which the Government might well look again. The argument of the hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) does not seem to me to be a valid one. What he was really saying was that we should not pay people who are elected to a Parliament which is prorogued, but really this argument applies to the question of paying those who remain in the seats which they already occupy. Either one should not pay the Parliament or one should be prepared to pay somebody even if he is elected while the Parliament is prorogued.

There are surely three paints here which the Government ought to bear in mind if the Lord President is to have the support he hopes for when he gets to Ireland. My two hon. Friends who have spoken have both referred to the fact that this prorogation is officially for one year and that it is hoped that Stormont will be restored at the end of the year. I am very doubtful about this. My own feeling from the moment the Government made their proposals has been that events will have slipped from their grasp at the end of the year. We may never see Stormont again as an effective Parliament.

Nevertheless, the Government say that Stormont is prorogued for one year and that they hope that Parliament will once again operate. If it is going to operate, whether at the end of the year or at the end of a longer period, let us just consider what the position would be if the strength of that Parliament had been eroded in the interim by a number of deaths, resignations or whatever it might be. At the point at which the Government want and need to reactivate Stormont they want a representative Parliament in being at that time to operate as a proper, effective, democratic machine. What they cannot afford is immediately to have to hold perhaps six or eight by-elections, which would amount 454 to a mini-General Election, just at the point at which it will be necessary for the Parliament to be operating properly.

It surely follows, therefore, that as a simple precaution against the time when the Government might need Stormont they must keep Stormont up to strength so that it is able to go into action at exacly the moment when the Government want its help, if they ever do want its help.

I can see that from the point of view of any Government taking dictatorial powers over a Province it will be very inconvenient to have controversial by-elections during the period when they are governing directly. Nevertheless there is something to be said for encouraging the people of Ulster during that period to believe that they have democratic machinery through which they can exercise their suffrage and express their opinions. Indeed, the Lord President may well find it very helpful to be able to take the views of a sample electorate in Northern Ireland during this period to see how far he is succeeding in his task and what volume of support he has among the two communities in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Antony Buck (Colchester)

In support of my hon. Friend's point, would he not agree that what the Bill does is to provide the Lord President with flexibility? He can issue writs, and he can sound out public opinion as my hon. Friend has just said he may wish to do. Is it not right that discretion should be left to him? It might be very difficult in certain circumstances to hold a by-election.

§ Mr. Maude

I do not think so. That has a somewhat nasty ring about it. We know the kind of trouble there can be in this House when writs for by-elections have been unduly delayed by the Government in power on either side of the House. I notice that the Liberal benches are extraordinarily empty when a matter of democratic freedom is at stake, but I seem to remember the Liberal Party complaining very bitterly at being disfranchised for a long time. I do not think it can be left to the Government alone to decide whether a writ for a by-election should be issued. This is surely a matter which must operate subject to some democratic sanctions. After all, in this House, if a writ is not issued 455 in due time, there are certain circumstances in which Mr. Speaker can issue a writ, and if the writ is too long delayed hon. Members have the sanction of being able to put down a Motion and debate it in this House, and indeed to carry a Motion against the Government. I do not think this can be left to the discretion of a dictatorial Government exercising direct rule. I think the Government would find it inconvenient.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that a writ should be moved in this House? Surely the only place for a writ to be moved for the Parliament of Northern Ireland is at Stormont, and how can a writ be moved in a Parliament that is prorogued?

§ Mr. Maude

The hon. Member is making the point which I was just going on to deal with. Of course he is right. I was answering my hon. Friend, however, who said that we should leave the Lord President, the Secretary of State designate, to decide whether or not a writ should be issued. That would, quite clearly, be wrong.

What this Bill does is to take out of the hands of the authorities properly and constitutionally charged with issuing writs the power to do so when they think it is necessary and right. I am saying that the authorities at present responsible for issuing writs should retain the power to do so. I believe that if the Government allow the Parliament of Northern Ireland, perhaps over a period of one or two years, to be denuded of parts of its strength so that a mini-General Election has to be held when they want that Parliament, they will find that it is much more embarrassing than allowing the normal constitutional procedures to operate and individual constituencies in Ulster to express their views democratically as the occasion arises.

§ Mr. Paul B. Rose (Manchester, Blackley)

The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster), in moving the Amendment, referred to me specifically, and perhaps hope springs eternal in his breast when he suggests that I ought to support the re-establishment of Stormont. He will know that, as from seven years past, those of us who have been involved 456 and interested in Northern Ireland affairs have been putting forward precisely what the Government have now done, which is to suspend or prorogue Stormont. So I do not think he made those remarks in any serious sense.

One hesitates to intervene in what apparently is an internal struggle among the pro-Stormont and pro-integration Unionists. But there is another view on the Amendment, partly expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham), which is quite contrary to that expressed by the hon. Member for Belfast, East. There are a number of reasons why one must oppose the Amendment.

Firstly, we all know that it is a meaningless charade to have elections in these circumstances, and that, as such, far from aiding, it would be harmful to any concept of democratic institutions. Secondly, and practically, it must be a ludicrous exercise. It would elect people to be paid for not attending a body which does not exist, or, at least, which is temporarily defunct. It lends itself to the kind of futile symbolism which all too often is unfortunately the heritage of Ireland, and Northern Ireland in particular. Thirdly, and more important, it derogates from the effectiveness of the advisory Commission set up by the Government and, therefore, from the willingness of all sections of the population to participate in it, notwithstanding the blackmail and the threats of Mr. Craig with regard to those who might sit on that Commission. It is certainly not pleasant to be called a Lundy or a traitor, any more than it is for some of my hon. Friends to be picketed by the I.R.A. The most important argument against this, and the peculiar merit of the Bill, as I see it, which certainly led me into the Lobby with the Government last night for only the second time in 7½ years, is that it creates in the advisory Commission the embryo, at least, of some sort of community government in Northern Ireland which could take in Northern Irishmen of all denominations and views, and the sooner we disengage rather than integrate the better.

That is why I oppose the Amendment. I believe that the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) and the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus), who voted against the 457 Bill last night—I understand their reasons—perhaps made the wrong analysis. They are not seeing and grasping the possibilities which exist here for a positive rather than a negative approach with regard to the advisory Commission. Evidently Mr. Craig and the hon. Member for Belfast, East disagreed with them in their analysis, and I understand the reasons for that as well as I understand the reasons for the view that they took. But there is the possibility of building up from that Commission something that would be a representative and democratic institution, in a way that Stormont never was because of its built-in one-party system and built-in majority.

The hon. Member for Belfast, East is really saying that if he cannot have Stormont, if he cannot perpetuate Unionist domination of the Six Counties of Northern Ireland over which Stormont has held sway for 50 years, if he cannot defy Westminster to the extent that he and some of his predecessors did when they refused to allow my hon. Friends and me to even ask Questions or raise matters pertaining to Northern Ireland in this House, if he cannot continue the convention that prevented us from dealing with those matters he and his friends want to find another way rather than to hide behind the convention. If they cannot perpetuate that domination, some of them would prefer direct integration as a second best.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), who has tabled new Clause 8, is in danger of falling into a trap in that declaratory Clause. First, it is hollow and meaningless. But it was demolished—and this is very relevant to the Amendment—by his former Cabinet colleague, my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) in a very telling speech last night.

An attempt to spell out in a declaratory statement that the staus quo is to remain for all time with that sort of rigidity and commitment is a nonsense.

We all remember the Colons in Algeria and their slogan "L'Algerie Française", which now has been seen to be a nonsense and a move towards integration, like Amendment No. 9, which we are discussing with the Amendment, which is the alternative strategy. But at least it 458 is worthy of support in so far as it would prevent the charade of so-called elections to a non-existing body.

The present position is that we ought at least to leave the slumbering Stormont in favour of a greater flexibility which is made possible under the new provisions, because this leaves the door open at least for discussions between London, Dublin, the advisory Commission and the Minister. It allows for a peaceful movement of opinion according to the will of the whole population of Northern Ireland. It leaves it open for both communities, and, indeed, people of all persuasions, to deal with this problem without seeing always the Border as a divisive issue. It allows for a kind of flexibility which the presence of the argument about the Border prevents and a by-product of which has been that no progressive movement, north or south of the Border, aimed at real social change has been possible because it has always been diverted, by right-wing extremists whether in the South or the North, on sectarian lines.

Dealing with the question of election writs, this will provide a diversion. It will provide a heightening of tension every time there is an election, which is precisely what is not needed when we require a calm appraisal by both communities in an atmosphere free from violence, strife and intimidation. There can be no doubt that elections fought today in today's atmosphere would only stir up that sort of strife. Elections for a non-functioning body will only help to polarise opinion and freeze existing attitudes. There would be more difficulty in creating an opening by the South or, indeed, in looking to the future of Northern Ireland, whether in the context of all-Ireland or in the United Kingdom, or the general context of United Kingdom-Irish relations or, perhaps, looking further ahead, within the context of the Common Market, if we were regularly to have these battles at election time for this non-existing body.

Finally, while Stormont is prorogued, let it stand as such and be treated as such. Let there be no writs and no elections. As the prorogation period is not known and may well be renewed at the end of the year, and by-elections, if held, will already be outdated—this is the answer to the hon. Member for 459 Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude)—public opinion may well have changed by the time Stormont comes into existence again, if ever. Therefore, in opposing Amendment No. 8 I say that it is an attempt to revive, as it were, a patient under ananaesthetic while he is in the course of undergoing a very serious operation. Doing that can have very dangerous results to a patient. It can have very much more dangerous results in Northern Ireland.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley

I oppose the Amendment. First, the House of Commons in Northern Ireland stands prorogued and I do not see how one could possibly issue an election writ while it is prorogued. That is surely a complete impossibility. Hon. Members have said that they do not want the new Secretary of State to have this power. In that case, I recommend them to accept my Amendment No. 9, in page 2, line 8, leave out 'need', and insert 'shall', which says that he shall not have it and retains it in the Parliament of Northern Ireland.

I think that it is a waste of time for the Committee to spend much time on this matter because there are Amendments of far deeper importance that we could discuss with greater profit. But the Committee would be foolish to suggest that it would be opportune, while the Government of Northern Ireland are in cold storage and a temporary administration has been set up, to run by-elections for a Parliament which does not even meet.

§ Mr. Maude

Could the hon. Gentleman tell us why the Speaker of the Northern Ireland House cannot issue a writ while Parliament is prorogued? Mr. Speaker can here.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley

I understand that that is not the custom in Northern Ireland, that Parliament must be in session.

§ Mr. R. Chichester-Clark (Londonderry)

I do not pretend to be an expert on this matter; nor, I think, does the hon. Gentleman. I suspect, however, that the situation there is the same as here, where a writ can be issued in the long recess on the direction of Mr. Speaker.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley

Whether that is so or not, I suggest that it is the usual custom, certainly in Northern Ireland, that the party which last held the seat has the opportunity to make the move for filling it. It is suggested by the Amendment that, in the midst of a temporary Government of Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State should have power to issue writs, since he is to have the full power of Parliament and Government in Northern Ireland. I, on the contrary, would like to take the power completely out of his hands and say that a writ "shall" not be issued.

§ Sir Elwyn Jones (West Ham, South)

There are one or two questions which hon. Members have raised on these Amendments which should be answered. It would seem to be clear that the prorogation of Parliament, either here or in Stormont, does not prevent the holding of by-elections when Stormont or this House is not sitting. It would seem that the matter is dealt with in three Acts of the British Parliament which I understand apply to the Northern Ireland Parliament. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will obtain confirmation of that, but I believe it to be the case. The three Acts are the Recess of Parliament Act, 1784, the Election of Members during Recess Act, 1854, and the Elections in Recess Act, 1863.

It is obvious that Parliament in the past has attached great importance to this matter because there are elaborate provisions in the legislation to deal with the situation which might arise when a Speaker dies or becomes insane. The latter event, to the best of my knowledge, has never yet in our parliamentary history—not in recent times, certainly—occurred, in spite of some indications to the contrary at certain times.

The effect, as I understand it, of the legislation is that if during a prorogation a Member of Parliament dies or vacates his seat, any two other Members can force Mr. Speaker to issue his writ for a fresh election. I seem to remember that on one occasion a member of the at present non-represented Liberal Party sought to do this some years ago, causing a good deal of alarm and despondency. But that does seem to be the legal position and the Committee is entitled to know.

§ Sir Harmar Nicholls (Peterborough)

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman saying that prorogation and the adjournment for the recess are the same thing? There is a difference between the adjournment for the recess and prorogation, which takes place in this House for about four days.

§ Sir Elwyn Jones

I do not think that they are the same. I am dealing precisely with the prorogation position, however. I do so not seeking to give the impression that I speak with authority on the matter, but, to the best of my recollection and on the information presently available to me, what I am saying seems to be accurate.

§ Captain L. P. S. Orr (Down, South)

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman saying that while Parliament at Stormont is prorogued any two Members, under the Acts he is relying on, can move for a writ and that the Speaker can issue it if he be not insane? In that case it would appear that the discretion lies with any two Members of the Stormont Parliament and not with the Secretary of State.

§ Sir Elwyn Jones

I am asking questions and stating what I think to be the position. I assume, from the inclusion in parenthesis of the words and no writ need be issued to fill any vacancy that they were intended to deal with the situation. What the new Secretary of State intends should be made clear. I understand that the purpose of these words and no writ need be issued to fill any vacancy is to prevent that situation arising. Or is it? I do not know. The words as they stand seem to leave an area of discretion. They are not a prohibition. In whom is the discretion to lie? Is it in the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Parliament? Is it in the Secretary of State? Where is it to lie?

I cannot help but think that what the Government have in mind is that the words in parenthesis shall mean that "no writ shall be issued to fill any vacancy". Perhaps we can be told. If the intention is not to achieve that objective, then the Secretary of State, who is going to have to carry these onerous burdens in 462 Northern Ireland, may well face a remarkable situation, if I am right so far on the constitutional position—namely, that there can be a series of resignations and a series of testing by-elections over the course of the next 12 months, and if it is thought that it would be good to bring about an era of quiet and potential consensus in Northern Ireland, then I cannot imagine a more deplorable potential course of events than that.

Although at first blush these seem to be unimportant Amendments, they raise important matters and issues, and accordingly I make no apology for raising those matters in direct terms at this stage. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman will require the assistance of the Attorney-General because what I have said is admittedly tentative on the basis of such information as I presently have.

§ Sir Derek Walker-Smith (Hertfordshire, East)

In this interesting analysis of the possible interpretations, may I suggest that there may be a third possible interpretation, that the words do not import a restraint because in that case the natural word for draftsmen to use would have been "shall" and they are not intended to give a discretion to some undefined person, but, being in brackets, they are merely declaratory to say that there will be no duty to fill the vacancy. There is no restraint and no interruption of any power that may exist.

§ Sir Elwyn Jones

I agree that that is a possible interpretation. As I understand the constitutional position, without some specific provision in the Clause the doubts to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has referred could well arise in the circumstances I have indicated. I hope that this matter will be clarified before these Amendments reach a Division.

§ Captain Orr

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) has done a considerable service by tabling this Amendment. I was not aware of the extraordinary doubts that exist over the meaning of these words. As a simple layman I had read this as being a discretion given to the Secretary of State over whether a writ should be issued. I had intended to address my remarks against that discretion and I was hoping that the Secretary of State designate would tell me something of his intentions.

463 Perhaps while we are waiting for the Law Officers, or one of them, to come to tell us what the words mean so that we can make up our minds about our attitude towards them, I could say a word about the general argument which is that because Parliament should stand prorogued therefore Parliament is of no account. This is a mistaken conception. Members of Parliament at Stormont remain Members despite the prorogation. They are elected Members and they continue to be paid because they have important duties to perform. No one suggests that when this House is prorogued we abandon all our duties and rights. The Secretary of State designate has said that among the various people whom he might consult about the future of Northern Ireland are the elected representatives—

§ Rev. Ian Paisley

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman asserting that the Secretary of State designate said that he would consult Members of Parliament in Stormont? I do not think he said that. He said that he would consult Members of Parliament representing Northern Ireland at Westminster.

§ Captain Orr

I am perfectly prepared to accept that my right hon. Friend was opaque about his intentions. He has not said precisely whom he will consult, but I most certainly got the impression that he would consult the elected representatives of the people. The people of Northern Ireland have elected two sets of representatives. They have elected those of us who sit here and they have elected others to represent them on other matters transferred to the local Parliament. These people have a mandate to represent them on those matters. I have no mandate to represent the people of Northern Ireland in those matters. I should have thought that in matters internal to Northern Ireland my right hon. Friend, if he is to consult elected representatives, ought to consult the people whom the electors have selected to represent them.

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith

With his great experience on these matters can my hon. and gallant Friend inform me about a matter which is concerning me and which I think will concern the Commission? Presumably the subjects dealt with by the elected Members at Stormont cover a large range of social and domestic 464 jurisdiction which give rise as we all know to considerable correspondence, interviews and queries from constituents. Does my hon. and gallant Friend think that during this period of prorogation constituents in Northern Ireland will continue to address to their Members these run of the mill constituency queries and if that be so—I cannot think that they will suddenly stop and send them to a Commission instead—would it not be right for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State designate not only to be consulting them but to be receiving their representations on these vital, human matters?

§ Captain Orr

I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. He is perfectly right. For example, my constituents concerned with road transport and the question of roads within their own Northern Ireland divisions will not write to me about it. I never had a mandate about that. They will take they matter up with the person whom the elected to represented them in these matters. That person is still an elected Member of Parliament and as such he has the right of access to the Crown which is one of the ancient privileges of Parliament, not taken away by prorogation.

§ Miss Bernadette Devlin (Mid-Ulster)

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is embarking upon a very dangerous philosophy on this question of mandates when he says that he does not have a number of mandates. If this is the supreme Parliament, extending throughout the United Kingdom, then of course he has a mandate to represent all the interests of his constituents in this Parliament. On the more practical point the hon. and gallant Gentleman would stand out as not being representative of most hon. Members if he is saying that his constituents do not write to him about roads and all the other matters that are often better dealt with not even by Stormont but by a county council. I know that my hon. Friends, and perhaps hon. Gentlemen opposite, get letters which ought to have been referred to a town clerk. I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman gets them.

§ Captain Orr

The hon. Lady ignores the 1920 Act by which this Parliament devolved certain of its powers upon the Parliament of Northern Ireland. This 465 Bill does not bring that Parliament to an end, it merely provides that it shall be prorogued for one year.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley

Surely the hon. and gallant Gentleman admits that the mandate of this Parliament is extending itself and it is now taking under its jurisdiction all the transferred powers, so that surely the people who can rightfully and properly make representations will be Members of this House, and I speak as a Member of both Houses? I know what will happen when a Member of the prorogued Parliament goes to a Government Department. It will simply say to him, "You have no jurisdiction now Stormont is not in existence. How can we take your representation?"

§ Captain Orr

If my hon. Friend would care to look at yesterday's Hansard he will see that the Minister said that he gave the most complete assurance that I will seek to use these considerable legislative powers as little as possible in the temporary period of the Bill. When I have to use them, I will undertake the maximum possible discussion in this House, particularly with the Northern Ireland Members here as well as in Northern Ireland."—[Official Report, 28th March, 1972; Vol. 834, c. 244.] That is exactly my point. I do not recognise that this Bill makes Members of Parliament elected in Northern Ireland non-Members of Parliament. They are Members of a Parliament which stands prorogued. They have rights conferred upon them when they were elected—rights and duties. They are not allowed to meet as a Parliament, but those rights and duties remain. Therefore, if, on the matters which the Act of 1920 transferred to the Parliament of Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend should be looking for advice, he would be perfectly entitled and ought to take advice of the elected representatives of the people in Northern Ireland with mandates on the subjects for which they were, responsible.

§ Mr. John Biffen (Oswestry)

Would my hon. and gallant Friend care to reflect, when addressing himself to the question of the extent to which the duties of a Member of Parliament persist during the period of prorogation, on the fact that Lord Boyle, in his pay award to Members of Parliament, concluded that we would still be doing our job sufficiently and that 466 we would be paid right up through the period of prorogation and the actual election?

§ Captain Orr

I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend. He underlines the point I was making.

To come, then, to the question involved in this Amendment, which is the question of the issue of writs. It seems to me that it is a dangerous discretion to leave to a Minister of the Crown, the question whether or not a writ shall be issued. Whether the words in the Clause mean that or not I am not sure. No doubt the Attorney-General will be dealing with the point. However, if the words mean that discretion is left to the Minister, that is an exceedingly dangerous one to leave with any Minister.

Perhaps my right hon. Friend, when he replies to the debate, will tell us his intentions. One can see that during this period of prorogation there may come vacancies, and there may be divisions, therefore, unrepresented; some divisions will have Members of Parliament, some will not—that is, Members of Parliament at Stormont. Suppose the Secretary of State in his wisdom decides to consult the elected representatives of the people. There may be certain divisions which will not be represented and which will have no voice whatever in that process.

It is also dangerous, in that a Secretary of State—I do not believe my right hon. Friend would do this—might make selective issues of writs, writs which he thought might help him; he might think other writs would not. It is an exceedingly arbitrary power to put in the hands of a Secretary of State. It is an arbitrary power to put in the hands of a Minister.

My only purpose in speaking was simply to inquire of my right hon. Friend what his intentions are concerning the Members of Parliament at Stormont, and consultation with them.

§ Mr. Maude

It is a perfectly fair question to put to the Lord President, but the essential question is whether it is going to be in his power or discretion at all, or whether it is in the power of the Speaker of the Stormont Parliament, whatever this Bill says.

§ Captain Orr

Indeed. As I said at the beginning, I had concluded, as a simple layman, that these words meant that the discretion was going to the Secretary of 467 State. It might be useful if the Attorney-General were to intervene, or, possibly, the Lord President, to tell us what the Bill means, and whether these words are actually necessary, before we determine our attitude to the Amendment.

§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw)

Perhaps it will help if I intervene at this stage and inform the Committee what the legal position is, as I understand it, and deal with the various points which have been raised.

In the first place, I want to make two points in general. First, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) has, as some hon. Members have said, done a service to the Committee, certainly to me, by enabling me to find out exactly the full position, and I am very grateful to him for having done that, and I have found it out. He said I would not consult people with experience and knowledge in Northern Ireland. I can tell him I am most anxious to do so.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude) discussed my dictatorial powers. I accept at once that for the period of one year this Bill confers on me very considerable powers, but it is right and very important for me to say that in the exercise of those powers I am answerable to this House of Commons and that in anything I do in the exercise of those powers I can be questioned in this House of Commons. Censure Motions can be put down against me in this House of Commons. If necessary and if this House should wish, it can carry censure Motions against me and get rid of me. It would be within its power.

This is extremely important. After all, as someone with my background as Leader of the House, I should not like it to be felt that I would be likely to treat lightly the position that I am completely answerable to this House of Commons in taking on these powers which, I realise, are considerable. I hope they are temporary, and I hope that it is appreciated that in exercising them I must be answerable to this House of Commons.

Having said that, I turn to what is, I understand, the legal position. By-elec- 468 tion writs in Northern Ireland are issued by the Governor. Under this Bill I take the powers of the Governor. Therefore, his discretion as to the issue of writs is in my discretion. It is also perfectly true that the Governor in these matters would normally act on advice. In paragraph 1(1)(6) of the Schedule to the Bill provision is laid down that I can act without advice simply for the very proper reason that in acting I am answerable to this House of Commons. That makes my position quite different. Therefore, from that point of view, I have the power and I can exercise it as to whether or not I do issue a writ.

That is the legal position, and I think that that clears up the point which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Ham, South (Sir Elwyn Jones) raised.

§ Mr. Maude

I think we should get this quite clear, because it is a genuinely puzzling point. Are there no circumstances in which, even while the House in Stormont is prorogued, the Speaker of that House can issue his writ for a by-election? Of course we know that it is a matter for the Crown in the case of a General Election, but Mr. Speaker here, as I understand it, can issue his writ while Parliament it prorogued.

§ Mr. Whitelaw

I am advised that there is no question but that the Governor issues all writs, including writs for by-elections, in Northern Ireland. If there were any mistake in that, I would tell the Committee, but that is the advice I am given. I think that makes the position clear. I keep on returning to the point that in whatever I may do in these matters I am answerable to the House of Commons.

Now I turn from the legal points to the merits of the case before me and what are my intentions, given that I have this power. Perhaps not for the last time in the task I am now undertaking, I find myself under considerable crossfire as to my best course of action. The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) feels that I should say that I will under no circumstances issue any such writ, because as the Northern Ireland Parliament is prorogued there would little point in having Members come to it when they would have no duties. But my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East and 469 my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) take the view that there are considerable duties for Members of Parliament in Stormont, even prorogued, as there are for Members of this House, even prorogued, and that I should take that into account.

§ Mr. Kenneth Lewis (Rutland and Stamford)

If a by-election were called by my right hon. Friend, would it not be difficult for the Member elected to be sworn in, since there is no Parliament?

§ Mr. Whitelaw

My advice is, "Yes", but I have no doubt that if it were thought right for this to be done in certain circumstances that could be arranged.

But perhaps on a more serious note I should turn to the reason why the words in the Bill are as they are. It would be fair to recognise both the points of view that have been expressed, which are important. On the one hand, the hon. Member for Antrim, North suggests that it would not make much sense to have a by-election. Should we be able in these circumstances to get men or women of experience and knowledge who wished to take part in politics to stand for such a by-election? We should have to consider that very carefully. It is likely that they would not, and if they would not—

§ Mr. Chichester Clark

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that such a situation might be attractive to certain people, because they would be paid during the period without doing anything?

§ Mr. Whitelaw

I accept that, but if I may say so to my hon. Friend, whose knowledge of this House and experience in all these matters I much respect, I think that all of us here would feel a certain conscience if we were to stand in such circumstances with basically very little to do other than to draw our pay.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley

It is usual in the Stormont Parliament that before a Member takes the oath after being elected in a by-election he must be sponsored by two Members of Parliament. Surely, in those circumstances, if a by-election were held, in order for the person elected to be a Member of Parliament, Parliament would have to be recalled, sponsors provided and the usual procedure carried out?

§ Mr. Whitelaw

I must note what the hon. Gentleman says—

§ Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that one does not have to be sworn in to be a Member of Parliament? When a person is elected he is declared to be the Member for the constituency in question.

§ Mr. Whitelaw

The more I hear of this matter, the more I think that, given that the words in the Bill are very reasonable, I should explain why they are there.

§ Sir Elwyn Jones

Do not the words in the Bill in fact put the right hon. Gentleman in an impossible and intolerable position?

§ Mr. Whitelaw

I do not think so. I could have had words saying that no writ would be issued. I could have conformed to the view of the hon. Member for Antrim, North. But it is only right, in the very tentative and difficult situation with which we are faced, to have as much flexibility as is reasonably possible. The more I have heard of this debate, the more I think that it is very unlikely that I would seek to take the step of issuing such a writ, and I think the Committee will feel that, too. But it is right to be flexible. I cannot foresee all the circumstances. If I consider issuing a writ, I can be questioned in the House. I am answerable to the House, and I undertake that if there were any question of doing so I would tell the House and explain my reasons.

There is one other important point to be made in answer to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South on the question of constituency problems for those who are at present Members of the prorogued Stormont Parliament. I intend to write to them and say that I am very willing to consider any constituency points on matters formerly in the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Government. I shall write personally to each one of them. If they write to me and my Ministers, I will ensure that they receive the most careful and studied replies. That is my responsibility.

I think I have made the legal position clear. I am sorry to go on stating that I am responsible to this House, but it is very important for me to state it, if only to get it solidly in my brain. The more 471 I see the Bill, the more I realise the sort of powers I am being given. It would be wrong to say I am frightened by them, because I must not be frightened by anything, and I will not be.

I am answerable to this House for what I do, and I hope that on that basis the Committee will not press the Amendment.

§ Mr. McMaster

I thank my right hon. Friend for his careful reply, and I note with interest the points raised by my hon. Friends and other hon. Members, including the right hon. and learned Member for West Ham, South (Sir Elwyn Jones).

Having listened to this lengthy discussion, my right hon. Friend now perhaps sees a little of what he may be in for during the coming year. He said that he was having discussions with those in Northern Ireland who are particularly knowledgeable in these matters. In the light of those discussions, and because we shall perhaps have the opportunity to return to this point later, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Captain Orr

I beg to move Amendment No. 10, in page 2, line 9, leave out from 'vacancy)' to end of subsection.

§ The Temporary Chairman (Sir Stephen McAdden)

With this Amendment we may discuss Amendment No. 13, in line 16, leave out from 'make' to end of subsection and insert: 'regulations for the preservation of peace and maintenance of order in Northern Ireland'.

§ Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)

On a point of order. Arising from that selection, are you allowing a separate Division on each Amendment, Sir Stephen?

§ The Temporary Chairman

On new Clause 1, yes.

§ Captain Orr

The purpose of the Amendment is to raise an extremely important point which goes to what I regard as the vice of the Bill. Many hon. Members argued on Second Reading that the Bill was a surrender to violence, but it is not fully appreciated exactly how must we are surrendering. It is one thing to give a Minister in the House of Commons executive authority, but it is another thing to give him the powers of a legislature. I am not sure about the technicalities of the Amendment or about what consequential Amendments might be required, as I am not a lawyer, but the purpose is to remove from the Minister designate the power to make laws.

My right hon. Friend said a moment ago that he was answerable to the House of Commons, and he has constantly stressed this. That is true. He is answerable to the House for his powers of administration, but here he is taking something which no other Minister has, except under specific Acts of Parliament where the power to make regulations is given. The Bill goes far wider. The power that is given is the power of a Parliament, and we shall be giving these powers to my right hon. Friend.

§ Mr. George Cunningham

Given the amount of time we shall spend on the Bill, I think we can take it for granted that Government Amendment No. 38 and related Amendments are likely to form part of the Bill as finally passed. If Amendment No. 38 is incorporated into the Bill the Minister will not have the unfettered power to pass legislation without the approval of the House.

§ Captain Orr

The hon. Gentleman is wrong. All that these later Amendments do is to substitute the affirmative Resolution procedure for the negative Resolution procedure. Can the hon. Member for 473 Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) imagine the Local Government Bill for England and Wales being dealt with on the basis of an Order in Council subject to the affirmative procedure? Does any member of the Committee think that is a proper parliamentary process? Of course it is not.

The Parliament of Northern Ireland has on the stocks 60 Measures to be dealt with. Of those, 25 have been passed, some are in an early stage and some in a late stage. The Health and Personal Social Services Bill, for example, contains 109 Clauses and 17 Schedules. When that Bill comes before this House of Commons it will be in the form of an Order in Council and no one will be able to offer any amendment to it. There will be no Second Reading, no Committee stage, no Report stage. There will be a kind of abortive Third Reading with Parliament being entitled only to accept or reject the Measure.

If the Secretary of State for Scotland wishes to change the law in Scotland he must bring a Bill to the House of Commons, and that Bill must go through all the usual processes. But what is proposed in this Measure is so totally unparliamentary that it is breath-taking in its scope. The Minister designate will have the total power of legislation. The only people whom the Minister is entitled or has a duty to consult are the members of the Commission, which is his own creation and whose members are appointed by him and paid by him. These are the only people who will be entitled to look at the legislation in draft and to consider it.

It is all very well to say that we are taking power from a devolved Parliament back to the parent Parliament but we are doing no such thing. We are taking power from the devolved Parliament and giving it to the executive Government. This is totally wrong and contrary to all concepts of Parliamentary democracy. As a parliamentarian I object with every fibre of my being to giving this power to a Minister of the Crown—any Minister of the Crown in any Administration—however much I admire him.

§ Mr. John E. Maginnis (Armagh)

Is it not worse than the Special Powers Act which has been complained of so often in the House of Commons?

§ Mr. Whitelaw

This point is rather like the last one. I fully realise the extent and nature of the powers which are temporarily transferred for one year. It might help my hon. and gallant Friend if I were to say that I am ready to discuss both with hon. Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies and through the usual channels how best this legislation can be taken. As the hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) said, the legislation will be dealt with by the affirmative procedure if the later Government Amendments are accepted. I am prepared to discuss how I or my Ministers would best be able to go through the legislation with hon. Members, and I hope to meet hon. Members on that basis.

§ Captain Orr

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. One is always grateful for small mercies, but we must remember that the Bill is not conferring powers on my right hon. Friend but upon a Minister of the Crown. We do not know that my right hon. Friend will be the Minister of the Crown. We do not know that these powers will be exercised by this Government. One should never base one's thinking about legislation on ministerial assurances. I accept that that is my right hon. Friend's intentions, and it is helpful to have his assurance, but I profoundly object to giving to any Minister of the Crown, whoever he may be, this enormous power of legislation. My right hon. Friend says that the Bill is temporary, but many of the most tyrannical acts in history have begun as temporary measures—

§ Mr. Orme

Stormont.

§ Mr. Gerard Fitt (Belfast, West)

Is the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) aware that for 52 years this absolute, tyrannical power which he has just described has been in the hands of one individual, namely, the Minister of Home Affairs in Northern Ireland? Why did not the hon. Gentleman when representing his constituents in this House object to these powers being held by that Minister?

§ Captain Orr

The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) has completely missed the point. The Special Powers Act, which no doubt we shall be discussing, was debated by a Parliament 475 before it was passed. We are now proposing to put into the hands of the executive Government, not powers to make regulations, but powers of a legislature. We are to give them the powers of a Parliament—powers formerly held by a Parliament to which the people of a country elected representatives. All that is to be taken away and to be put into the hands of the executive Government.

This is why I so profoundly object to this procedure. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House is an honourable man, and I accept the assurance which he has given. Nevertheless, I shall vote for this Amendment because I am totally opposed to the powers which are to be taken.

§ Mr. Pardoe

I should like to take up the remarks made by the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr).

§ The Temporary Chairman (Sir Stephen McAdden)

I should point out that there is a misprint in Amendment No. 13. It should read "line 10", not "line 16".

§ Mr. Pardoe

I am grateful for that correction, Sir Stephen. Many of the other Amendments which are to be dealt with in this group relate to the same matters mentioned by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. Amendment No. 13 seeks to do very much the same thing as Amendment No. 10. On the other hand, it will be noticed that other Amendments to be taken with this Amendment No. 10 are Amendments tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself on rather different points.

On the specific point relating to the rôle of this Parliament, we feel it wrong to have this form of delegated legislation. I hope that the Leader of the House will give us his reasons for saying that the Government believe it necessary to provide for legislation by Order in Council in the way in which provision is made in this Bill.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) said yesterday, on Second Reading, there are no doubt reasons why the Government wish to do this. First, it may be because the United Kingdom Parliament is likely to be subjected to too heavy a burden of work if it has to debate and to have 476 Committee stages on every piece of legislation on Northern Ireland which the designate Secretary of State deems to be necessary. On the other hand, I cannot believe it is right, setting out as we are on this extraordinary venture, that this Parliament should declare that it has not the time to consider the affairs of Northern Ireland. That would be an extraordinary assertion for the Government, or indeed for any hon. Member as a Parliamentarian, to make. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not advance that reason.

Looking at the other reasons, I feel that they rather scrape the barrel. It may be that this is being done so that legislation which is passed while Stormont is prorogued will have authority equal only to legislation passed by Stormont. There may be some hon. Members who would prefer that situation, but I personally would not. However, such a reason may be advanced by the Government. We on the Liberal benches feel that neither of these reasons would be sufficient to justify a major constitutional change.

It seems likely that in the next year citizens living in Northern Ireland would prefer legislation to be passed by the United Kingdom Parliament after debate than for orders to be made by the Secretary of State subject only to the veto of either House. I am sure that view will be widely held in Northern Ireland.

I turn to new Clause 1 and the Amendments which are to be taken with it on which we have asked for a separate Division. We find ourselves in the difficulty which I mentioned in a point of order at the beginning of the Committee stage, namely that this relates to an entirely different matter. We would have preferred a separate debate. However, I accept the limitations which have been imposed, and I hope that we shall be able to debate this matter very fully, albeit in the company of strange Amendments.

The Bill specifically makes provision for the way in which the Secretary of State designate is to operate the Special Powers Act. This is made quite clear in various provisions of the Bill, particularly in the Schedule. Paragraph 1of the Schedule requires the right hon. Gentleman, except in urgent cases, to 477 submit new regulations under the Special Powers Act to the Commission. Paragraph 2(1)(a) of the Schedule provides that he cannot delegate powers to make regulations under the Special Powers Act, thus amending the provision of the Special Powers Act which provides for delegation. Paragraph 4(2) of the Schedule provides for regulations under the Special Powers Act to be annulled by Resolutions of either House of Parliament.

This matter lies at the heart of the Bill, and it is for this reason that we on the Liberal benches seek to raise this matter. The Special Powers Acts—I put it in the plural because there are a whole host of regulations which have gone with the legislation over the years—are a symbol of the suppression of races and creeds in Northern Ireland. There is no doubt that this legislation is special restrictive legislation applying only to the minority in Northern Ireland—[Hon. Members: "No."] In theory, of course, it does not, but in practice it is restrictive legislation which has been used time and again as an instrument of discrimination against the minority in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Chichester-Clark

The hon. Gentleman knows that on many occasions I have decried the action of men of violence on both sides, though unhappily we know where the majority of men of violence come from. But is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are specific instances in the legislation to which he refers, some very well known, in which both the majority and the minority have been involved.

§ Mr. John Biggs-Davison (Chigwell)

Might I ask the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) whether it is not the case that the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) was put inside under the Special Powers Act—[Interruption.] I now understand that he was not put inside.

§ Mr. Pardoe

I am not denying that that legislation has been used in isolated cases in respect of certain recalcitrant members of the majority, but it can be said that about 95 per cent. or more of all the instances in which this restrictive legislation has been used have involved the legislation being used as an instru- 478 ment of discrimination against the minority, and that it was so conceived.

§ Mr. McMaster

rose—

§ Mr. Pardoe

I think I must get on with my speech, and if what I say does not satisfy the hon. Gentleman, then perhaps I can give way later.

We have here enshrined in this Bill Draconian laws which make a mockery of the whole concept of British justice and fair play. I am amazed in reading those laws that any Parliament that calls itself free could have passed them—still more, that it should continue to keep them in force. Perhaps they are best described in the conclusions of a commission of inquiry set up by the National Council of Civil Liberties which examined the purpose and effect of the Special Powers Acts and which reported in 1936. I make no apology for quoting one or two extracts from this report which has proved to be immensely prophetic. I do so not only as a Liberal Member but also as secretary of the Parliamentary Group on Civil Liberties. It said: …through the operation of the Special Powers Act contempt has been begotten for the representative institutions of Government…that through the use of Special Powers individual liberty is no longer protected by law, but is at the arbitrary disposition of the Executive. This abrogation of the rule of law has been so practised as to bring the freedom of the subject into contempt…that the Northern Irish Government has used Special Powers towards securing the domination of one particular political faction and, at the same time, towards curtailing the lawful activities of its opponents. The driving of legitimate movements underground into illegality, the intimidating or branding as law-breakers of their adherents, however innocent of crime, has tended to encourage violence and bigotry on the part of the Government's supporters as well as to beget in its opponents an intolerance of the 'law and order' thus maintained. The Government's policy is thus driving its opponents into the ways of extremists. That was in 1936, and I think that it shows that what was being said then was portraying an accurate prophesy of what was to come about—

§ Mr. McMaster

The hon. Gentleman and his Liberal friends surely cannot blind themselves completely to the true facts in Northern Ireland. It is true that these special powers were designed to restore law and order. It is well known in Northern Ireland that the I.R.A. has existed ever since the State was set up in 1920 and that there have been frequent 479 campaigns of violence. In the most recent one, hundreds of people have been killed and thousands have been seriously injured, and the I.R.A. has boasted that it is responsible. How else can one expect the special powers to be exercised, if not against the perpetrators of these terrible crimes?

§ Mr. Pardoe

I intend to come to that point. However, the very defence of the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) is that which has been put up for Draconian laws of this sort in every Fascist country in the world from time immemorial. They are reasons which will be put up again and again. They are specious and quite wrong. One can always find reasons why Governments should take these powers. But the Liberal view is that these powers can never be justified, except in the very shortest time scale.

As I shall seek to show, these laws have become not just legislation used for a temporary period. They have become built into the law of the land. That is where the real danger lies, and we are asked to perpetuate this situation in this Bill.

In my view, the continued existence of the Special Powers Act is a major cause of the events which have led inexorably to a civil war situation. As the British Civil Liberties Commission reported in 1936, These laws are contrary to the fundamental principles of democratic government. The Act was originally passed in 1922, no doubt in extreme conditions. It was intended to last one year. This Bill is intended to last one year. The Act was renewed until 1933. Then it was made to last indefinitely. That is the Act with which we are dealing in certain parts of this Bill.

It may be doubted whether any so-called free country has ever passed such an Act. It is somewhat doubtful whether there is such an Act on the Statute Book of any so-called unfree country. I doubt whether there are many countries which have Acts of this kind on their Statute Books. It is the kind of legislation that even totalitarian régimes are shy of passing and, when they do it, they usually do it solely to meet some great emergency. But this Act has become part of the ordinary law of the land, and that is the danger.