FOREIGN AFFAIRS

§ Sir Alec Douglas-Home (Kinross and West Perthshire)

It is a sad reflection on man and the progress of civilisation that any review which is made today by the Foreign Secretary of international affairs must almost inevitably be a catalogue of disputes and wars. When we could be planning investment in water, food, power and education, which are still the pressing needs of three-quarters of the world, we return time and again in this House in our debates to the sterile business of discussing quarrels and fighting between each other. It almost makes one despair of man's claim to be a creature of reason.

There is one topical example of this with which we are living. There was a rumour broadcast by a propaganda machine that Britain and the United States had intervened in the Egypt-Israel war. Within hours that charge was proved to be untrue. Every Arab Government knew that it was untrue. So did the Egyptian Government. The Soviet Government knows it to be untrue. All the countries represented in the United Nations know it to be untrue. Yet action was and is based upon that false rumour. It has disrupted commercial contracts. It has created an artificial and unnatural division between the Arabs and the West, who had previously been friends, and it has added a new dimension to the Middle East war. It is difficult to see that human folly could go further than that.

There are, I think, signs that there is a recovery of poise. Nevertheless, a warning must be given that if this kind of irresponsibility is to govern international relations, then there will be no peace, and, what is more, the victims will be the new and the developing nations.

2483 What is the cause? Can we identify the source of all the unrest and outbreaks of violence that there are in so many parts of the world? It was following the Teheran conference during the war that I first became alerted to what I then considered to be, and still do, the overriding post-war problem of the free world.

Then, Stalin's interpretation of the international character of Communism became clear, and it was made even clearer at the Yalta and Potsdam conferences. His interpretation of international Communism was that subversion backed by force was legitimate. The aims of international Communism became clear, to reduce to a shambles all the evolutionary processes, social, economic and political, of countries which differed from the Communist creed, and to do so by internal and external pressures so intense that the countries concerned were faced, and are still faced, with a really acute and appalling dilemma.

Either those countries offer no resistance and have to go under, or else they react, and the reaction has to take the form of force. That is a dilemma which not only the great countries, but the small countries are facing and into which the Communist application of the international theory of Communism has driven almost every country, and it poses a great dilemma for the peace makers.

So the question is, and it is widespread across the world: does a country faced with such a dilemma capitulate, does it resist and probably be accused of being an aggressor, a charges e which is likely to be supported in the United Nations Assembly? In Europe, when faced with this challenge, we stood up to it during the years of the cold war. There is as yet no peace settlement affecting Germany or the future of Berlin. But there the dilemma was clear, and we had to decide whether we should capitulate or whether we should resist. In Europe, it has, as I think every hon. Member knows, been the presence of superior forces, and that alone, which has prevented the Soviets from exercising their option as to whether or not to turn the heat on Berlin and Germany again.

I am not one of those, I hope, who see a Communist under every bush. Indeed, for many years I have done my best to 2484 seek co-existence and reconciliation between the two points of view, and I think that we must go on in this search. Nevertheless, we must fact facts when we look at the world as it is and ask what is the source of the present trouble which is so rife that it leads to the conclusion that the world is in a severe malaise.

Who foments the riots and brinkmanship in Hong Kong? Who engineered the near take-over of Indonesia? Who compels India to consider arming herself with nuclear weapons? Who, when the rest of the world tries to find a peaceful solution to the Middle East problem, ostentatiously arms Syria and Egypt for the purpose, openly advertised, of a second round of war? Who undermines the authority of newly independent Governments in Africa, saying that the Continent is ripe for revolution? Who has turned the evolutionary process of emancipation of colonial territories from colonial rule into a mad economic, political and chaotic rush? Who is financing revolution, for example, through Cuba in South America? Who consistently prevents the United Nations from effective peacekeeping activities?

The answer—and we must face the fact, reluctant as one is to do so—that these policies, if one can so call them, are fomented in the one case by the Soviet Union and in the other by Communist China. The actions are so consistent and so continuing that I think that there is no alternative but to take them as hard evidence of the intentions of these two countries towards the free world.

I have reminded the House of these facts—and I think that they are facts which can scarcely be challenged—because from them certain questions arise which are very relevant to British foreign policy and defence policy in the modern world. If, as I think we must face, the United Nations is hamstrung, who is to contain these Communist exploits within any bounds? Is there any answer other than the democratic Powers who have the power to do so?

The Question can be even more related to the White Paper on Defence. In those circumstances, if there is any validity in what I have described, is Britain prepared to protect her own interests where these seem to be threatened, or to lend a hand where we have a presence or 2485 where we have the ability to deploy some strength to influence events in the direction of stability and order?

§ Mr. J. J. Mendelson (Penistone)

Vietnam?

§ Sir Alec Douglas-Home

Vietnam would not be one of those places where we could have very much effect by deploying our strength.

I shall not debate in detail today the Defence White Paper, but in the context in which I am placing it there are three criticisms which I believe to be valid. The first is that the £2,000 million has called the tune and not the Foreign Secretary's concept of the strategic foreign policy of Britain, which takes second place. Secondly, the Government, in spite of the lessons from Malta and Aden, have made the error of indicating a date of withdrawal from Singapore. Indeed, the White Paper seems calculated to assure some critics that the Government will go and, on the other hand, to persuade some people that the Government might in some circumstances stay. In that way, they get the worst of all worlds.

Let us be clear about one thing. From the moment the Government say that they intend to leave some territory and withdraw their presence, both our friends and potential foes begin to think in terms of the successor to the United Kingdom. This is a dangerous thing to happen, because from that moment our influence and authority begin to wane.

Thirdly, if the Government were to slash the Army and Air Force to the extent that they now propose, the decision to scrap aircraft carriers is almost inexplicable. We shall examine in detail the question of the number of troops to be left in Singapore and Butterworth, and also the commitments to be retained—the contribution to the Commonwealth Brigade, membership of S.E.A.T.O. and a defence treaty with Malaysia. The Government are to examine how these commitments are to be fulfilled.

We have come to the conclusion that unless the overall military plan of the Government east of Suez includes a mobile naval and air task force which can give itself adequate air cover—which can deploy air cover from ships at sea—the Government's proposal of force levels in the area will lack all credibility in rela- 2486 tion to the commitments accepted, which are, in turn, related to the threat from a potential enemy. In these respects we find the White Paper causing us considerable anxiety.

The Government are quite right to give priority to the security of Britain and of the Continent of Europe. Indeed, now the consent of the majority of both parties—I say this carefully in the presence of the Foreign Secretary—has been given to creating a more cohesive unit of Europe, economically, politically and, as the right hon. Gentleman has added lately, perhaps militarily. The latter concept can only be advanced gradually. The idea of an integrated European defence force is not at present acceptable to France.

That United Nations forces might gradually be reduced in Germany would be acceptable to the Germans only if they could see a solid alternative. The shape of a European nuclear organisation must take time to evolve, but surely there can be no doubt that Britain's advice should lean strongly in the direction of Europe assuming a greater responsibility for her own defence. The United States will certainly go for this. It is consistent with the maintenance of the overall United States nuclear deterrent and with the Atlantic Alliance. The more that Europe can accept responsibility for its own defence, the more it will add to Europe's influence and authority in the councils of the world and, indeed, may lead to the day when Europe itself as Europe can take an attitude on some of the great questions I have been talking about.

§ Mr. Mendelson

It seemed in the debate on the application to join the E.E.C. that the Leader of the-Opposition merely raised a nuclear command as a possibility for discussion and negotiation. Is it now the official attitude of the Opposition that they actively desire the promotion of a new nuclear command based upon N.A.T.O.?

§ Sir Alec Douglas-Home

I have just said that the shape of any nuclear organisation and its relationship to the United States overall deterrent would have to be very carefully worked out. I have no fixed ideas on it, but it should not be impossible to work this out with the co-operation of the French and the Americans, perhaps with the kind of 2487 McNamara Committee concept to which the Germans might easily agree.

But it is a great mistake to advance this at present. I am saying that these things must be taken gradually. The Foreign Secretary was right when he mentioned the possibility of greater responsibility of Europe for its own defence. These things have to be taken gradually. Nevertheless, they should be looked at and considered now.

What are Britain's foreign policy objectives outside Europe? There are two arguments that I cannot follow and to which, therefore, I cannot at present subscribe. Because we rightly give priority to the defence of Europe, I cannot follow those who argue from this that there is nothing that Britain can usefully do outside Europe either to protect her interests or to assist the free world. Because the Arabs momentarily cut off oil supplies, I cannot follow the argument that there are no political or economic advantages which a British presence can gain anywhere and that, therefore, we should go and go now.

We should consider two questions strictly from the point of view of British interests. How, for example, are they best served in the Middle East? By a political set-up dominated by Egypt, Syria and Egyptian-controlled Yemen? Or are they best served by a set-up in which Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey and a South Arabia closely linked to them will exercise the main influence?

I have no doubt about the answer, and that the latter, assisted by quite a modest British presence in the Gulf—and I am glad to see that, by not mentioning this, the White Paper implies that the presence will stay—and supplemented by a defence treaty with South Arabia, could gain the time to thwart the first possibility and ensure the second, thus achieving a very substantial political gain for the free world.

In view of reports in the papers today, I make one more plea to the right hon. Gentleman about the Egyptian use of gas. It is nothing short of an international scandal that this matter has not been taken up actively in the United Nations, and it is almost as great a scandal that Her Majesty's Government will not initiate action in the United Nations in this respect.

2488 Having made that interpolation, nevertheless the Government have had some second thoughts about South Arabia. I hope that they will achieve the result so that our friends—the Saudi-Arabians, the Turks, the Arabs and South Arabia—in future may exercise the greatest authority in the Middle East area.

I suggest that a similar question should be asked in respect of South-East Asia. Which suits British interests best? is it an area in which the influence of Malaya, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, Burma and the Philippines progressively assumes authority, or one in which the influence of Communist China spreads and eventually dominates so that there are puppet Governments everywhere? Neither Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, nor Singapore doubts the answer. Nor have I and my right hon. and hon. Friends any doubt. Does not the security of Commonwealth countries count any longer in the British Government's calculations?

One of the arguments for withdrawal which I find most specious is that the countries of South-East Asia are more likely to keep their independence if European and United States protection is removed. Would any hon. Gentleman who believes that say it to the Tibetans? Would the people of Malaysia accept it, knowing quite well that, if Britain had not protected them, Indonesia would have overrun them within a year?

One day it may be true that these countries can protect themselves, but it is not true yet. That they may protect themselves one day—and I hope that they will in a security system of Asians for Asians—is the reason why I am urging the right hon. Gentleman constantly to take a real initiative to get an Asian nucleus for S.E.A.T.O. There ought to be dynamic diplomacy in this respect by ourselves, the Americans, the Australians and the New Zealanders. On all the evidence which comes to me, it has not been pursued, with the urgency which ought to be given to it.

The ability of these nations to defend themselves is not yet and, therefore, those who advance the proposition that Britain should leave, give up her commitments and evacuate her bases here and now must be made to realise that that proposion can only be valid in the sense that 2489 the political and military structure which is left behind by the British itself protects the inhabitants of the area. That time is not yet.

§ Mr. Christopher Mayhew (Woolwich, East)

Does it not follow from what the right hon. Gentleman is saying that the independence of South Vietnam, which depends most of all on Western military support, is the most secure in South-East Asia? Is that really true? Is it not a fact that the Americans themselves are committed to military withdrawal from South Vietnam when the war ends? What do we do then?

§ Sir Alec Douglas-Home

Let me put it the other way round. If there was no American protection, South Vietnam would be gone tomorrow, and Thailand would follow.

One is bound to come to that conclusion and make this the test: what do we put in our place when we leave, and is it effective? One has to make that the test if one has any regard for the survival of free nations and, to paraphrase the right hon. Gentleman's own words when talking about the Middle East the other day, any hope of preventing a decisive shift in the balance of power further in favour of the Communist Powers.

In these debates, one has the choice of making a sort of Cook's tour round the world or trying to assess the implications for Britain of the general tendencies inherent in a world ruled by power. I do not know which course the right hon. Gentleman will follow. If he takes the latter course, the House will be interested to hear his appreciation of Chinese intentions. We have not heard from him about these, and we should welcome his views.

I have felt compelled to express anxiety about the general situation in the world and, in particular, the relationship of British foreign policy to it—and British defence policy, since publication of the White Paper. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence are responsible jointly for the security of Britain and her rôle in the world. I believe that they will leave the Foreign Secretary with no recognisable foreign policy unless he is extremely careful.

2490 I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reassure us that the Government have assessed British interests in different parts of the world, that they are determined to protect them, that they understand that Britain can still play a part in the world at the side of her friends and allies to preserve international law and enable ordinary men and women to go about their lawful occasions in peace. In these two respects, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to satisfy the House.

§ The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown)

In many ways the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) was an odd speech. I have a great affection for the right hon. Gentleman, as he well knows. I shall deal with many of the points that he raised as I go along.

I was grateful for what he said at the beginning of his speech about the lie which the leaders of Arab nations are pretending to believe. As he said, it is untrue. They know it to be untrue, and it is time that some of them had the courage to stand up and say that it is untrue and arrange their policies accordingly.

I thought that the passage in which the right hon. Gentleman talked about Communism—what he called "the international Communist theory of Communism"—was both too black and white and a little too old-fashioned. It is not quite like that.

The right hon. Gentleman went on immediately to talk about "these two countries"—Russia and Communist China. Any of us dealing with foreign affairs today will know that one does not talk about these two countries in the same context of a so-called international Communist theory of Communism.

I will deal later with what the right hon. Gentleman said about the United Nations, and I will also deal with the question of Britain and her interests in the world.

Having denied that he would deal with the Defence White Paper, of course, the right hon. Gentleman proceeded immediately to do exactly that, as we always do in this House. As I understand, he put forward three accusations. 2491 The first was that money is dictating our defence policy. If right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have not yet got hold of the point that money—here meaning resources—must, in the end, dictate what we can do in defence and foreign affairs, they should arrange a seminar and get some people to instruct them. Of course, the resources which we have must, in the end, dictate what we can do.

The right hon. Gentleman's second allegation was that we had decided when to get out, and his third was that this proved that we could not have decided not to build "the carrier" as he called it. But "a carrier" would have meant carriers. There is not much left of the Carshalton speech after what the right hon. Gentleman said. There would not be very many tax cuts if we did all that. I shall deal with European defence during the course of what I have to say.

§ Mr. Brown

I have only just started. I shall give way in a moment. I am dealing with the right hon. Gentleman, who can defend himself.

The last thing that the right hon. Gentleman said, and on which I ought to comment before I start on my speech, showed one of the weaknesses from which the Conservatives have always suffered. This is what led them into trouble 11 years ago, and it is a besetting sin from which they never get away. The moment they think of the Middle East, they divide the world into the "goodies" and "baddies". There are those whom we do not like, they are bad, and the right hon. Gentleman was good enough to name them. I do not know what good he thinks that does us, or how much help he thinks that is. Then he named the goodies. I do not know what good he thinks that does them. I said this the other day.

I urge the Conservative Opposition to stop this business. In the Middle East, let us deal with nations as grown-up nations, and have our policy with them according to the way we see it. Do not let us go on identifying those whom we like, and those whom we do not like, and using emotive terms about them. It does no good to us, or to them.

As the right hon. Gentleman said, we have had many debates on foreign affairs this Session. Indeed, having done a little 2492 research, I find that we have had more than in any Session for a long time. We have had 10 specific debates on foreign affairs, so it is very difficult to make a speech today which either does not repeat much of what one has already said, or does not anticipate the debate that is to come next week on defence.

§ Viscount Lambton (Berwick-upon-Tweed)

Talk about gas.

§ Mr. Brown

The hon. Gentleman is a great authority on that. I am not for the moment dealing with that.

We have had notable debates, on the Common Market on 10th May, and on the Middle East on 31st May, both of which I remember with rather special note. I thought that they were quite outstanding. It is six months since we had a general discussion. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether I wanted to do a Cook's tour round the world. It is one of my terrible fears that one day I shall fall into that trap for want of something else to do, but I do not propose to do it now.

In six months we have seen war and violence in the Middle East, in the Congo, in South Arabia, in Nigeria, and in Vietnam. I think that we might have a disagreement here. I believe that the world situation, beset as it is by wars, by the danger of the escalation of wars, calls more surely than ever for an effective world authority. I believe that there is only one practical road to that goal, and it is to make the most that we can of the United Nations.

This is why the basis of our foreign policy, despite the right hon. Gentleman's misgivings about it, is to give wholehearted support to the United Nations, to back it up, to be guided by its decisions, and to play our part fully in building up the authority which it needs. Without a real world authority, there can be no peace in the world. There can be only a peace troubled by fears of war, broken by recurring conflicts, and haunted by the dangers of total war. This is the theme of what I have to say today.

In the final analysis, a foreign policy based on active belief in the United Nations is, in my view, the only policy which carries with it a hope for a world order based on something more than the uneasy balance of power, and the jungle of the unbridled authority of sovereign 2493 States. I know the shortcomings of the United Nations. I know what, in present circumstances, it can do, and what it cannot do. Because of these shortcomings, we have, for our own security, and the security of the world, to pursue a policy of alliances, but this is not at variance with the purposes of the United Nations. Indeed, this is provided for in the Charter.

The point I want to underline at the beginning of what I have to say is that, in my view, we must never underestimate the rôle which the United Nations can play, and is playing today. The right hon. Gentleman took the Middle East for part of his case. Let me follow suit. This is the region of the world uppermost in our minds at the moment. With all the difficulties and disappointments that we have had there, it is still the United Nations which provides the means for dealing with the immediate and practical problems—the problems of the cease-fire, the problem of the refugees. It is still the organisation which provides the essential diplomatic framework within which a settlement of the Arab-Israeli dispute should, and could, be reached.

Since our last debate on the Middle East, we have seen developments. U.N.T.S.O. officers have been deployed on both sides of the Suez Canal. This move came from an initiative by the Secretary-General, supported by the Security Council. It is, some may say, small, but it is without any question a most significant beginning in ensuring the continuance of the cease-fire, and in helping us to move to the next considerations which have to be taken into account. A further development has been the appointment by the Secretary-General of Mr. Gussing, of Sweden, to go to the Middle East to look into the problems of the refugees on the spot. There was, and there is, no other organisation, no other umbrella, under which this could happen.

At the General Assembly the emergency session is now drawing to a close, and again it is true that the debate showed a notably growing sense of realism among the nations and their delegates. As the debate progressed from week to week, it showed a wide measure of agreement in analysing a number of the main problems on matters like the 2494 need for a high level representative of the Secretary-General to be in the Middle East. But, despite all that, it seems likely—and to some extent I regret it—that the Assembly will now adjourn without giving any formal expression of opinion, other than the need—and this is important in its way—not to prejudice the future Jerusalem, and on the need for an international action to help refugees. The Security Council must now take the problem back, take up its work again, and get on with the task of working out answers to the difficult and dangerous problems, and Her Majesty's Government will play their full part in that.

As we are talking about the Middle East in this general context, perhaps I might turn briefly, as the right hon. Gentleman did, to the Persian Gulf, and say a word about that. This is a delicate area, where we have both major interests and continuing obligations. As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, and as the House knows, we shall have left Aden by the New Year. We have done and are doing our best to ensure that South Arabia begins its independent existence in conditions of security, but in the present disturbed situation in the Middle East we must be particularly concerned about the stability and security of the Gulf area, for which we still have treaty responsibilities. It is our long-term aim to create a situation in which these small States can stand on their own feet. At present, they need our help and we propose to keep small forces there to meet our obligations.

I would like to correct one widespread misapprehension. Our forces are not in the Persian Gulf simply to protect our oil interests as such, but to maintain stability in the area. Many of the countries in the Gulf have unresolved territorial claims on each other. The House will remember that in 1961 there was a threat to Kuwait from Iraq. If we were to pull out at once we could only expect these old claims to come to the surface and the stability of the Gulf would thereby be put at risk.

§ Mr. John Lee (Reading)

My right hon. Friend says that our forces are there for the purpose of helping to delimit frontier disputes. Bearing in mind the fact that most of the countries 2495 in the Persian Gulf have never had recognised frontiers, does my right hon. Friend mean that we can carry out a cadastral survey and complete this task in the short time that we are likely to be there?

§ Mr. Brown

No, but knowing the area personally, as I do, I am certain that by being there for the time being—in the way in which we are—we are helping to provide stability in the period of carryover during which people can learn to live with each other and perhaps carry out their own cadastral survey.

§ Mr. James Davidson (Aberdeenshire, West)

The question of our treaty obligations in the Persian Gulf is frequently raised, but as far as I can ascertain they are limited to a treaty dating back over 100 years, by which we are obliged to prevent slave trading in the Gulf. Beyond that we have no treaty obligations in the area.

§ Mr. Brown

I am sorry, but the hon. Member is wrong.

§ Mr. Brown

May I answer for the Government? I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for trying to help, but it is not always useful. The hon. Member is wrong in what he says. There are other treaties, exchanges of Letters and various matters of that kind. We certainly have obligations there.

But the real point is not that so much as the fact that I believe that at the moment, by maintaining what we are doing there, we are doing better than we would by getting out, if we are thinking in terms of stability, security and a peaceful transition to a different order, when these countries can stand on their own feet.

I was not going to say any more about the Middle East or to raise other subjects on which the House has recently spent a lot of time. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there is one part of the world about which we have talked very little during the Session. The right hon. Gentleman said that the House had heard little about it from the Government; the fact is that the House has heard little from either side. I refer to the question of the Far East and South-East Asia.

2496 There is no doubt that this area will inevitably feature greatly in the debate on the Defence White Paper next week, and, therefore, it would be useful if I said something about it today, not only for its own intrinsic merits but also because it might help the House with the debate we will have next week.

There are three things that I should like to say straight away.

§ Viscount Lambton

What about gas in the Yemen?

§ Mr. Brown

First, our defence decisions, announced in the White Paper, do not mean that we are no longer concerned with this area of South-East Asia, and do not mean that we are no longer concerned with the welfare of our friends there. We shall continue to honour our obligations to S.E.A.T.O. But I must make it clear that what is said in the White Paper means that our force declarations to S.E.A.T.O. will be progressively altered in nature and size. These we shall be working out in detail over the coming months.

As for the Anglo-Malaysian Treaty, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, we shall have discussions with the Governments of Singapore and Malaysia about how we shall meet our obligation, which is to help in their external defence. Secondly, we shall be giving significant—I underline the word "significant"—aid both to Singapore and Malaysia to enable them to adjust their economies to the new state of affairs. Although we use words here as economically as we can I am sure that the House will be cognisant of the size of the problem, for example, facing Singapore in terms of adjusting its economy to a situation where we are no longer providing, through our defence operations, the proportion of its gross national product that we do today. I want to make it clear that we understand this, sympathise with it, and will significantly help.

Thirdly, we fully realise that the countries in the area may still need our support. We consider that the best way for us to provide this is by helping them with the more sophisticated types of military equipment which we can contribute, but which, if they had to acquire them alone, would be a very heavy strain on their economies.

2497 In considering South-East Asia, perhaps we should remind ourselves that that area means far more than the area of the Vietnam conflict. Nothwithstanding that conflict, it is an area where there are many positive and encouraging developments which merit a word or two in this debate.

First, there has been the progress made since confrontation came to an end. The policies of President Sukarno, which we and our Commonwealth allies firmly resisted, encouraged hatred between peoples whose prosperity lies not in hatred, but in peaceful collaboration. President Sukarno's policies failed, and with the ending of confrontation—and it is salutary on this 20th July to remember that just one year ago we were not sure whether confrontation had ended—a more hopeful future has opened up for the Governments of the non-Communist countries of South-East Asia. They are today evolving ways of living together in peace and of co-operating for their mutual benefit.

Last February, I told the House that I believed that the great promise for the peaceful development of South-East Asia lay in genuine regional co-operation between those countries. In all the moves that have taken place over the past 18 months—in the meetings of the Association of South-East Asia and of the Asian and Pacific Council, in the specialised meetings on education and economic development, and in the moves for a new Association which the Thais have told us are well advanced—the important thing is that the initiatives have come wholly from Asian countries themselves. It is the Asians who are the driving force behind this movement, who are giving it its impetus, and in my view it is important that this should be so and should be seen to be so. We should get away from the old criticism that there were some people from outside who were trying to make use of them for other purposes.

We in Britain are playing an active part in one of these organisations—the Asian Development Bank. We are contributing about £10 million to it. One of the first major enterprises of the bank looks like being the establishment of a Special Agricultural Fund, for which there will be big contributions from Japan and the United States. The purpose of 2498 this will be to provide loans on easy terms for the financing of agricultural developments in the countries which belong to it.

Much of the happier atmosphere in South-East Asia today is reflected particularly in the changes which have taken place within Indonesia in the past year. I wish to pay my personal tribute to the leaders in Indonesia who have courageously and powerfully led this change of policy and attitude.

Indonesia has returned to the community of nations and has achieved a new relationship of trust and friendship with its neighbours. Now there is the formidable problem of re-establishing Indonesia's economy. Together with Indonesia's other Western friends, we have been taking part in a series of international meetings to discuss the rescheduling of Indonesia's debts to her Western creditors and to discuss the aid which Indonesia needs to carry that country through the current year.

We have agreed that there should be a moratorium of Indonesia's debt repayments until 1971 and that, thereafter, the debts should be paid off over a period of eight years. As for aid, sufficient funds have now been pledged to cover the gap in Indonesia's estimated balance of payments this year, and we ourselves have followed up the £1 million grant which we made last year by a long-term, interest-free loan of £½ million, which we have now made.

This brings me to the subject of Vietnam.

§ Mr. Eldon Griffiths (Bury St. Edmunds)

I was glad to hear what the right hon. Gentleman said about Indonesia. Would not he agree that one reason why Indonesia has been able to make this important improvement is because Britain, with its allies, held the line in the Far East during confrontation? Was not this the essential factor on which progress has been built?

§ Mr. Brown

There is no doubt at all that the contribution which we made, with our allies, in Malaysia during that period provided the opportunity for this to happen. It did not have to follow that it would happen, but it did happen and that is the important thing. I therefore do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman.

2499 The enormous potential—and it is enormous—in South East Asia can be developed only in conditions of peace. The major obstacle is, of course, the war in Vietnam. Despite what we feel about the Middle East, no part of the world scene is today more full of tragedy and human suffering than Vietnam.

No solution has so far been found, but I repeat that this is not for lack of any effort on our part, nor for any lack of readiness to work on the many suggestions put forward. A solution has not been found because no one has yet managed to create the conditions of confidence in which both sides can agree to take balanced steps towards reducing the fighting and, therefore, towards negotiations.

For our part, we can claim to have been unremitting in our efforts to aid in the creation of these conditions. We have maintained continued and close contact with the United States, with the Soviet Union and with others whose special knowledge or special position might be used to break the deadlock. On every possible occasion I have urged the Soviet co-chairman to reconvene the Geneva Conference. I have supported the efforts which the Secretary-General of the United Nations has made. I have tried every way I know to get it across to Hanoi—I choose my words carefully—that peace is there for the asking.

A balanced peace, which alone can guarantee stability, needs a balanced approach to negotiations; and, for this, I believe that something must go into both sides of the scales. If the North Vietnamese can show that something will go into the scales from their side, I am absolutely sure that the American side will be filled with ample measure. The tragedy is that Hanoi remains silent.

The subject of Vietnam leads me, as it did the right hon. Gentleman, to a consideration of China, a country on which inevitably the future of mankind depends so much. For more than a year the Chinese have been engaged on a vast internal transformation, the so-called cultural revolution, which they tell us is aimed at staving off the onset of "revisionism".

Even from the limited information available to the outside world, it is clear 2500 that this movement is having tremendous repercussions within China. I do not wish to go into this highly debatable issue of internal questions in China. The Chinese must, of course, decide for themselves, in their own way, the kind of society they want and I, at any rate as Foreign Secretary, am not concerned with that aspect. Recently, however, the cultural revolution has spilled over into the sphere of foreign affairs in ways which impinge directly on us, and it is on these aspects that I wish to comment.

First, there is the serious question of the treatment of Her Majesty's representatives in China. Our Mission in Peking has recently been the object of several organised demonstrations. On two occasions demonstrators broke into the Mission's premises, molested the staff and damaged property. But the Chinese authorities, despite requests from our Chargé d'Affaires, made no attempt to restrain the demonstrators.

Earlier, our representative in Shanghai and his family were subjected to gross indignities and physical maltreatment, and their personal belongings were destroyed by a mob acting with the consent, if not the connivance, of the Chinese authorities. I am sure that the House will genuinely join with me—and these are not just words introduced for the purpose—in paying great tribute to the courage and patience shown by our Chargé d'Affaires and all our staff in these very trying circumstances.

There is a growing tendency on the part of the Chinese Government in their dealings not only with us, but with the diplomatic representatives of other countries to encroach upon the normal functions of diplomatic missions and to flout the internationally long-accepted principles of diplomatic immunity. I find this extremely disturbing, to put it mildly. It calls in question the normal civilised means of communication between governments which, for centuries, have formed the basis of international diplomacy. We have recently reminded the Chinese Government of their obligations in this respect and we have told them unmistakably that we consider this to be a matter of fundamental importance in our relations.

§ Mrs. Anne Kerr (Rochester and Chatham)

While absolutely accepting my right hon. Friend's statement about 2501 the bravery and courage with which our diplomats in China resisted the sort of treatment about which he spoke, cannot my right hon. Friend say something about why the Chinese may be behaving as they are? Would he care to comment on the fact that while we voted for China's inclusion in the United Nations, we went on, at the behest of the United States, to vote for China's exclusion by means of a procedural device, which meant that we knew that everybody else knew—[Interruption.] I hope that my right hon. Friend will comment on this matter, which is vitally important.

§ Mr. Brown

I intend to discuss the question of China's membership of the United Nations, and I will be doing so quite openly. I say to my hon. Friend, with the greatest affection and respect, that she will get no mileage out of trying to explain away China's behaviour in this matter.

Before dealing with that—and I promise to do so in a moment—I want to consider the second field in which the cultural revolution has, as it were, lapped over and impinged on us, and that, of course, is Hong Kong. My right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary has already told the House that the Hong Kong Government have acted with the greatest possible restraint in maintaining peace in the territory, and I want to repeat that there is no foundation whatever for Chinese accusations of atrocities, or anything meriting that word, on the part of the British authorities, or the Hong Kong authorities.

But we cannot allow ourselves to be intimidated either by threats from China, or by violent outbreaks of local Communist sympathisers. As my right hon. Friend made clear in his statement of 10th July, the Hong Kong authorities have the full support of Her Majesty's Government in taking all necessary measures to maintain peace and security there. We intend to fulfil our responsibilities towards Hong Kong and to take all the measures needed to restore the situation so that the people who live there may settle down again to their normal pursuits, which is what the vast majority of them want. On this basis, we hope that our relations with China 2502 may return to their previous footing, to the mutual benefit of China, ourselves and Hong Kong.

I now come to the issue which my hon. Friend raised. Clearly, it is in the interest of everyone that a country of more than 700 million people should play its legitimate part in world affairs and co-operate in helping to keep the peace. China is one of the great nations of the world. An effective world authority needs China to play her part within it. That is why we have constantly and consistently supported the admission of China to the United Nations. We shall continue to do so, but I must add that China herself, by her behaviour in the field of diplomacy and by her attitude towards the United Nations, seems to be her own worst advocate, and that needs saying to China.

Some hon. Members may wonder whether much is to be gained at present by maintaining our relations with China in view of the treatment meted out to our Mission. Her Majesty's Government believe that recognition of a foreign Government, as I have said many times before, should not depend on our approval of its policies or its politics. Experience has also shown that once relations are broken, resumption is often a lengthy and difficult business. For these reasons, we shall seek to maintain our relations with China, to continue to trade with her and to have other contacts in so far as these are possible.

§ Mrs. Anne Kerr

Why do we continue to vote for the procedural device which effectively excludes China from the United Nations?

§ Mr. Brown

The question which my hon. Friend is asking is whether one should vote for a resolution in the United Nations which would declare that the admission of China was not an important issue. I am bound to say to my hon. Friend that one would swallow very hard before actually saying that the admission of China was not an important issue. I know what she has in mind, but I beg her not to overplay her hand. This is a very difficult issue to settle. Some year it will be settled, but it will be settled in a year when the climate and the behaviour of China are both such as to mean that China is about to he admitted.

§ Mr. Philip Noel-Baker (Derby, South)

Has the right hon. Gentleman had occasion to consider the argument on the legal point which was put to his colleague the Minister of State by Mr. Humphry Berkeley, of the United Nations Association, and which showed that under paragraphs 2 and 3 of Article 18 of the Charter this ought to be dealt with as a matter of procedure, that is to say, by a majority vote, as was done in the case of Czechoslovakia and other nations which have changed their Governments since becoming members of the United Nations?

§ Mr. Brown

I am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend. I regard him as more of an authority on these matters than is Mr. Humphry Berkeley.

I have the issue very much in mind. Last year, I considered very closely whether we should change our practice in this procedural matter. It is a very difficult issue and one must pick the moment when we bring the procedural vote into line with the other vote. I do not think we would have helped if we had done anything about that up to now.

I was saying that international relations must, of course, be a two-way business. I think that we can honestly claim that we have made considerable efforts in the past to improve our relations with China. We are willing to go on doing so, but all the efforts cannot come from one side. If China is interested in better relations, it is up to her to show it and to recognise that such an improvement cannot be based on action by us alone.

In so many of the really important fields in foreign affairs, as the right hon. Gentleman will know better yet than I do, policies must be pursued consistently and vigorously over long periods if they are to have a chance to be successful. There are very few short cuts in this area of policy. This is true of our determination to have better relations with China; it applies equally to our policy of détente between East and West, to the whole movement towards European integration and, above all, as I said at the beginning, to our United Nations policy. We believe that we have the right aims in our foreign policy. We recognise the need to pursue them consistently and in the knowledge that results must sometimes—and I might even say often—be 2504 slow in coming. We also know that the tactical handling of these matters requires a great deal of flexibility. I ask the House to approach these issues in the debate in the same spirit.

§ Sir Alec Douglas-Home

Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, may I ask whether he has read accounts that Egyptian officials in San'a are saying that if the Royalist Government does not capitulate, villages in the Yemen will be bombed with gas? Is not this an occasion on which the right hon. Gentleman must take an initiative in the matter?

§ Mr. Brown

I have read the reports, but, as I said to the right hon. Gentleman in the Middle East debate the other day, this is a matter in which the initiative ought to be taken by the authorities of the country on whose territory it is happening. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Hon. Members can contest that with me, but I take the view that that is the right way in which to approach it. I do not think that I would help by myself raising it, or getting it raised on our initiative.

§ Mr. Jeremy Thorpe (Devon, North)

Before the right hon. Gentleman sits down, may I ask whether he is seriously suggesting that the Republican Government of the Yemen will raise at the United Nations the fact that poison gas is being used in their support? Surely he is not asking us to accept that he believes that.

§ Mr. Brown

Other Governments, nearer to the situation than we are, are concerned. It is rather interesting that they did not raise it.

§ Mr. Brown

I am not having a question and answer session; and, in fact, I have sat down. I shall carefully listen to what hon. Members have to say, but I can only say that, having considered this very carefully, I have come to the conclusion that it simply would not help if this were to be an issue raised by Britain.

§ Mr. John Peel (Leicester, South-East)

The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary chided my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) with having said that he would not comment on 2505 the Government's Defence White Paper, and then proceeded to talk about the Defence White Paper a certain amount himself. As the right hon. Gentleman will not doubt admit, defence and foreign affairs are, of course, closely interrelated. We cannot discuss the one without considering the other.

The Foreign Secretary also accused my right hon. Friend of being a little too black and white in his description of the "goodies" and the "baddies", but I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman was a bit too facile himself in talking about the rsources which a country must have to build up its defences. Of course a country, must have resources, but what we on this side of the House argue and disagree about with the Government is the proportion of our resources which they are prepared to allocate to our adequate and proper defence and the carrying out of our foreign policy. We maintain that a great country like ours, which is not prepared to devote 7 per cent. of its gross national product to looking after its interests in the world, is not worthy of continuing to be described as a great country.

I should like to take up with the right hon. Gentleman his insistence upon the importance of the United Nations as a world authority. This would be an ideal, but, so long as the veto in the Security Council, as it exists today, continues, I cannot see how it is possible for the United Nations to be an effective world authority. Until the great Powers are prepared to treat the United Nations as it should be treated, it cannot possibly fulfil its proper functions.

I want now to look at one very important part of the world and, in the lengthening list of withdrawals from our responsibilities, to speak about the latest—South-East Asia and the Far East. Despite the Government's mistaken policy, as we maintain, in Aden and South Arabia, the Government now propose to withdraw from our bases in South-East Asia and they have given dates. There is to be a very substantial withdrawal by 1970–71 and complete withdrawal by the mid-1970s.

However, as so often with this Government, they tend to hedge their bets when they produce White Papers. On foreign policy the new Defence White 2506 Paper, at the end of paragraph 8 on page 5, states: We plan to withdraw altogether from our bases in Singapore and Malaysia in the middle 1970s; the precise timing of our eventual withdrawal will depend on progress made in achieving a new basis for stability in South-East Asia and in resolving other problems in the Far East. That is quite a bibful, but to name a date publicly by which the Government propose to withdraw from our bases in South-East Asia they must surely have had some grounds for seeing the emergence of a new basis for stability. It would be very interesting to know what they do see, because I hope that it is not just the end of confrontation.

Personally, I am not convinced that this is by any means necessarily permanent. Nor do I think that the Prime Minister of Malaysia or the Prime Minister of Singapore are by any means convinced that Indonesia has permanently rejected a policy of confrontation. It could easily be switched on again. Those parts of Malaysia in Borneo, Sabah and Sarawak are very much out on a limb. They are very susceptible and could very quickly be threatened by a reintroduction of a policy of confrontation, to say nothing of the protected State of Brunei with which we have a treaty.

Indonesia is far from stable as yet. I do not believe that in his heart of hearts the Prime Minister of Malaysia trusts the Indonesian situation or many of the elements that go to make up that widespread, diverse and very unsettled country. They have a long way to go before any stable relationships in that part of the world emerge.

It would be very much to the advantage of those countries if the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation could be widened and strengthened, but there is little sign of that at the moment. There have been suggestions that the Malaysian, Philippino and Indonesian peoples might get together in some kind of federation, but those who are leaders in that part of the world and who know the area best do not even take this proposition seriously as yet. It is not even a starter.

Rather than a tendency to stabilisation, there has been a tendency to fragmentation, because Singapore, which, at one time, was part of Malaysia, has now 2507 separated off and, in a way, could become something like a Far Eastern Israel. There is no doubt that the island of Singapore, peopled by a great majority of Chinese who could become very formidable fighters if they so made up their minds, is determined to defend itself and, under extremely able leadership, is an island which will have to be reckoned with in that part of the world.

The situation in Vietnam is still a long way from settlement.

In these circumstances, it seems the height of folly to give notice of a time of withdrawal of one of the greatest stabilising influences in that part of the world—namely, Britain—particularly against the wishes of the countries concerned. Both Singapore and Malaysia are very anxious that Britain should remain and play her part. If we withdrew and left a power vacuum, as we should, I do not believe that the Americans can at the present time adequately fill that vacuum. Such action on our part is asking for increased pressure upon the peoples of that part of the world and increased instability, and that will increase as the time for our withdrawal draws nearer.

Turning to Europe, the state of the North Atlantic Alliance, too, is becoming weaker rather than stronger. It has been seriously weakened by French actions and now by us. I believe that many of our allies are beginning to ask themselves whether Britain really cares about looking after her interests adequately and of being a good ally. As that happens many of our allies, too, will begin to lose interest.

It seems to me that there are already signs that a vigilant potential enemy is already beginning to take advantage of a weakening situation in the West. We are now seeing a formidable build-up in the Mediterranean of Russian power, particularly naval. Today the Foreign Secretary is neglecting the advice and the statement of one of his great predecessors in his own party who said that in no circumstances would he walk naked into the council chamber. It seems to me that Britain is steadily and not very slowly throwing her clothes away. I hope that I am wrong.

However, I come back again to some of the opening remarks of some of the right hon. Gentlemen. The basic strength 2508 of the country, its power to influence the world and its power in foreign affairs depend upon its economic strength at home. This is at the bottom of everything.

§ Mr. George Brown

Hear, hear.

§ Mr. Peel

The right hon. Gentleman says "Hear, hear", but, unfortunately, he and his right hon. Friend are the architects of the economic chaos and mess that we are in.

The great plan that the right hon. Gentleman originally produced went into the wastepaper basket. Foreign affairs depends on the economic strength of the country. That is at the bottom of it all. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that not long ago he said that his party would have no more alibis to produce in relation to the economic situation of the country, that it took the blame for the position that we are in. If we have not the resources to have a proper, adequate foreign policy it is his fault and that of his right hon. Friends.

§ Mr. Malcolm MacMillan (Western Isles)

I shall not follow the hon. Member for Leicester, South-East (Mr. Peel)—I should be in some danger of error if I did—in discussing the National Economic Plan. Much of his comment seemed hardly appropriate, beyond a passing reference, in a debate of this kind.

I want to say a few words about a situation in a country with which we are involved in many ways—through the United Nations, through our activities and interests in connection with O.E.C.D. and also through a very long traditional friendship and alliance. I refer to Greece.

One of the tragedies of the Greek situation is that so many great world events have overshadowed what has been happening these past weeks in Greece. There is grave danger of Greece being swept finally behind the Fascist curtain while these other great events outside are taking place elsewhere. We have, however, responsibilities and involvements in Greece, just as we have in the Middle East and South-East Asia. What has happened in Greece is in danger of causing much wider trouble in that part of the world. I need hardly mention Cyprus, and what 2509 is feared may happen in Cyprus even at this moment, to show how involved we are in the problem.

When the military coup took place on 21st April, 149 members of the Labour Party and the Liberal Party expressed their grave anxiety about what was happening in Greece. Nothing has happened since then to lessen our anxiety. Indeed, the situation is consolidating itself for the worse.

§ Viscount Lambton (Berwick-upon-Tweed)

I was in Greece at the same time as the hon. Gentleman. Would he not agree that there was almost absolute peace and quiet after the coup?

§ Mr. MacMillan

I agree with the noble Lord. It was not quite the peace of the the graveyard, but it was the silence of a people confronted by tanks and guns. If he were in such a situation he would be quiet, too, and would not have dared to interrupt as he has just done.

§ Viscount Lambton

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree—I know that he was in Athens, and I aslo know that he is a man of integrity—that there were very small military forces in Athens? Hardly any were visible. Normal life went on not affected by the Military.

§ Mr. MacMillan

If the noble Lord will allow me to go on with my normal speech in my normal way I shall perhaps come to that subject. However, what he says is, in fact, a point strongly in favour of what I am about to say, first, conditions in Greece were extremely normal considering that elections were to take place a few weeks later, promised by the King and the Government and arranged for through the Parliament. For the first time in many elections, the 'two major parties in Greece had agreed that no caretaker Government would be required during the election. It was agreed that the Right-wing Government should remain in office for that purpose. There had not been such an agreement for many years.

Once that had been agreed, a calm descended upon the country which had not been possible for several months beforehand when the nation was frustrated from going to elections because of the activities of the extreme Right, the Establishment and the Palace itself. 2510 Efforts had deliberately been made in one attempt after another to demonstrate the failure of Parliamentary democracy in Greece by setting up collapsible coalition Governments. But it had not failed any more than it had in many other countries, nor to a greater degree. So, with the elections due, calm existed. But the very fact that the agreement between the parties existed was one more reason why no unconstitutional action should have been taken to disturb the course of the elections. So I find it extremely difficult to justify the arguments about the disturbances which were going on in Greece which the military junta now uses as part of its justification for taking over the country and abolishing the Parliament and all the democratic institutions in Greece.

§ Mrs. Renée Short (Wolverhampton, North-East)

That was Hitler's excuse.

§ Mr. MacMillan

But Hitler at least appealed to the electorate and was elected. But the mob in Greece who claimed to be the Government dared not face elections and would not allow free elections to others. As the noble Lord said, calm prevailed at election time in the country, but it was, indeed, only remarkable, considering the refusal month after month to allow normal elections to take place and considering the plot to prevent earlier elections in which the Palace was involved.

When one considers all these provocations and electoral irritations, it is only remarkable how calm the people were. After the coup the calm continued; but it was a calm enforced by the army. The noble Lord could not have gone into the side streets in Athens or looked behind the university or the Parliament or into the Royal Park. If he had he would have seen the tanks. I agree that they were not on the streets. One cannot have both tanks and tourists on the same streets, at any rate not for long. If tanks are there the tourists will go. I am surprised that the noble Lord did not see a great deal more than he says he did. He could not have been very observant for a journalist of his receptive capacity.

There was no violence from the Centre, and none from the Left because neither the Centre nor the Left was planning violence, and neither was equipped for violence. The revolutionaries, so called 2511 by the junta, were found peacefully in their beds and dragged out of them in the middle of the night. These included the Conservative Prime Minister, Mr. Canellopoulos, a Greek 1967 version of Stanley Baldwin, a highly respectable constitutional Conservative. Nevertheless, he was regarded as being insufficiently reactionary and Right-wing by the junta, and it dragged him out of his bed. He resisted, but he was dragged away to imprisonment. So was ex-Premier George Papandreou, another elderly man; and, admits Brigadier Pattakos, 10,000 other people were also dragged away to prison early on 21st April.

The calm prevailing was, as I have said, the calm next to the calm of the cemetery. It was the calm of people threatened with the cemetery if they broke it. We know that Greece has gone, for the time being, behind the nearest thing to a Fascist curtain that we have in Western Europe outside Spain and Portugal. Who have declared themselves in favour of this régime? Very few indeed. I do not think that even General Franco sent a congratulatory telegram; or that Salazar has sent any congratulations. Nor has anyone, so far as I know, in any country, except for Colonel Grivas, who sent a telegram—it was not too welcome for obvious reasons—from Cyprus, immediately after the coup.

Without mentioning names, I regret that in this country there are a few prominent people who have aligned themselves with the new Fascist régime. So far as I know, no one else in Europe has expressed approbation of this mutiny and rebellion against the constitutional Government, against Parliamentary and the other free institutions of Greece.

Who are these people in power in Greece? They were absolutely unknown until the day after the coup. They were not even the senior command of the Army, but from the second rank. It was a rebellion against their seniors and against the commander-in-chief. The King claims to be the commander-in-chief and if the junta was not, in fact, technically in rebellion against him, then it must have done what it did with his connivance. That is still a very open question indeed. So much confusion was deliberately woven round it, that it is 2512 difficult to establish the exact part played by the King at this moment.

§ Viscount Lambton

It is less than generous for the hon. Gentleman to say that the King in any way connived at this revolution. There is much evidence to show that he did nothing whatever.

§ Mr. MacMillan

There is no evidence whatever to show that he did not. There is every indication that he was very quick indeed to endorse the action of the junta. There has been no public statement that he did not approve it Everyone in contact with Greece over the years and particularly these past months knows that there has been a long-term plot brewing in which it was widely suspected throughout Greece that the Establishment and the Palace itself was very much involved. When Pattakos and Papadopoulos and the rest of the rebels took action on the night of 20th-21st they are believed to have adopted a N.A.T.O. emergency plan, devised for a different situation of national danger, and to have forestalled the longer-term coup which was being planned by agents provocateurs by the extreme Right and the High Command, through possible disturbances in the elections and otherwise.

The reasons given by the junta and its supporters and apologists here and elsewhere for taking over were that it expected the leader of the Centre Union, Mr. Papandreou, to go to Salonika on the Sunday night and rally the nation to revolution. At the same time it was believed that the Centre Union would win overwhelmingly in the elections in a few weeks' time. Who in his senses, as the leader of any political party on the eve of his own overwhelming victory, would involve himself, his party and country in violent revolution?

Secondly, there is no evidence whatever that any arms had been accumulated by any party, or that any organised violence was contemplated by either the Centre Union or the Left-wing forces in Greece, because they were taken by surprise in the middle of the night and offered no violence, except possibly with their fists. They were wheeled away en masse in trucks to concentration camps and island prisons.

Throughout this, the calm admired so much by the noble Lord continued, but 2513 it was the calm of imposed tyranny, and the enforced calm, politically, of a new brand of Fascism. What worries me is that this sort of coup can happen in other countries. It may well be the pattern for similar action in Italy, France and elsewhere within the N.A.T.O. Alliance. It has already happened, indeed in Greece, with the N.A.T.O. Alliance. The N.A.T.O. emergency plan used in Athens is common knowledge to the French, Italians and everyone in N.A.T.O. It was used first and perverted by this group of Greek officers. We have to look at this as one of the fundamental dangers, and we have been warned.

These people now in power have no constitutional authority, in spite of what has been said, even on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. The suspension of certain Articles of the Constitution is provided for against certain national emergencies, particularly danger from outside the country, involving great disturbance within the country. Article 91 has a provision, however, that any suspension of those rights of the Greek people must be ratified by Parliament within 10 days. The King has no constitutional authority to endorse the suspension of those Articles of the Constitution without the official ratification by Parliament within 10 days.

In spite of that, he permitted, accepted and endorsed the action of the junta in suspending the rights of the people under the Constitution, and recognised the junta as a Government. On this very tenuous and doubtful constitutional point—its acceptance by the King, illegally—the Government here and Governments throughout the world have recognised the junta as the Government of Greece. This is a very feeble constitutional basis, and Her Majesty's Government should look again at this point, because it is one of very great importance.

I cannot blame the noble Lord for talking about the Athens calm. I am sure that if he had been there a few days before the coup, like everyone else he would have been taken unawares by it, as most people were. It is astonishing to find out how naive even people like Mr. Canopoulos, a leading Greek politician, with all his experience of Greek politics, were within days of the coup. I had had 2514 correspondence with him and other Greek leaders on that very subject for a long time and almost a year to the day, in the course of a letter of 21st March, 1966, he wrote to me: You say that powerful circles in Greece are working for a possible abolition of Parliamentary Government in the country. I am afraid that your information is not correct. Such powerful circles do not exist as far as I know. Almost everyone in Greece was taken by surprise. No one expected this exact type of rebellion by this rank and type of military mutineer at that very moment. They were not fully ready for it, even on the Right wing, which was always suspicious of what the Left wing was up to and thinking in terms of a take-over to stop them. There was, however, growing preparation for this brand of revolution further to the Right. Deeper into the Establishment, the responsibility for the military violence is greater, and the knowledge of military coup preparations was much more intimate.

Can one say, on the other hand, that there was a pattern or background of violence so far as the mass of the Greek people, or the Centre Union party was concerned? That is the idea used to justify this coup, as having forestalled violence. The apologists for this coup have to go back 20 years, to the old violence of the Civil War, in order to get some background of disturbance against which to justify the coup taking place in April, 1967. A more feeble argument than that I cannot conceive of.

The two big political parties had reached an agreement such as had not been reached in other elections. The elections were being conducted by the Right-wing party without any fundamental objection by the others. Yet they had the coup.

This is a tragedy for so many, because not only Greece is involved. This is a pattern of mutiny and seizure of power which could be very dangerous in certain circumstances in some other countries within the N.A.T.O. Alliance.

I regret that it is necessary to underline the constitutional point of the King's involvement and illegal endorsement of the rebel junta as a government. This is the one point upon which our recognition has been accorded to the new junta in Greece—the fact that the King has 2515 accepted the junta. This is, and will remain, a matter for considerable constitutional, moral and political argument. Brigadier Pattakos, who is one of the two really tough guys in the junta, said in Northern Greece on 3rd July: I want to convey to you"— he was talking to the Greek people— this message of faith and optimism and to reassure you that the revolution of 21st April, inspired by our beloved King Constantine, symbol and creator of the unity and power of our nation, and guided by the incorruptible servant of justice, the President of the Government, Mr. Kollias, and working tirelessly in complete harmony with the members of our national Government of selected scientists and military persons, has decided to complete her task by any means. That is a fine piece of almost Oriental oratory which would stick in the throat of the ordinary politician. But these are not politicians, which is another tragedy for Greece: they are soldiers and only soldiers. Not one of them has any political experience. This is a gang of military mutineers attempting to run a country which was rapidly becoming a modern, Western European type of State.

A common plea of the present Government in Greece is to say that previously there was corruption. The apologists or supporters of the junta say that there was corruption in the last two, three or four years. Of course there was corruption. But it certainly did not start in the last two, three or four years. Those who say that it started in the last two, three or four years are saying that it did not happen to appear to threaten their interest in the days of Karamanlis and the extreme right wing, because they are supporters of the extreme right wing and this is their way of reacting to the first winds of real democratic change and a new surge of economic development in the country's real interest.

It may be said that when we attack this unprincipled military junta we are "attacking Greece". But we are, of course, doing nothing of the kind. People in Greece were constantly telling us to do everything that we possibly could to use the good offices of our own Government, and to try to impress on international organisations in which Britain is a partner or participant the need to ostracise, discredit and bring down the rebel army junta and to help to bring full 2516 democracy back to Greece again as quickly as possible. The Greek people have a right to an answer and response and action from every democracy, particularly in Europe, and especially from those of us, united with them in defence, as N.A.T.O. claims to be, of the free world and the free, democratic way of life.

We cannot pass over the suppression and subversion of the free Press of Greece and the imprisonment of quite large numbers of decent able, men and women in the journalistic profession—of editors, publishers, and others. Madame Vlachou, a woman of very high principles, who used to run one of the best conservative newspapers in Athens, refuses to publish as long as there is any censorship or as long as this rebel mob is in control. She has been driven near to bankruptcy. The rules which have been laid down for Press censorship constitute a unbelievable story. There is censorship also of the mail, of the theatre, of the cinema—indeed, censorship all round, in every sphere.

In addition, the Army has involved itself so deeply and widely in so many things that it is no longer an effective military force for any serious N.A.T.O. purposes. It is now the Government, the Civil Service, the censorship of the mail, of the newspapers, and so on—it is totally involved in a hundred different unfamiliar activities. If there were a serious N.A.T.O. emergency tomorrow, Greece's forces would be useless to us—much more useless than France was when she was involved so deeply in the Algerian war, with her fleet also involved in support of her armies in Africa.

From the point of view of the people of Greece, it is high time that we took serious note of what has happened in their country and took action as quickly as possible in our own interests as well as in the interests of our allies and the Greek people to undo the already grave damage which has been done.

It is unbelievable the number of ordinary things which Greeks are not now allowed to do. There is an almost total suppression of real freedom. Almost every article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights has been broken by the rebel junta and is treated with 2517 contempt from day to day. I can give article after article which, on the evidence which is coming in every day about what is happening in Greece, has been flouted and abandoned by the military junta.

If one is visiting anybody in Greece and staying overnight, especially, the resident—one's host or hostess—has to report the fact to the police. I have had experience of this myself. I did not stay in a house at which I had often been a guest, on the night in question, because I did not want to involve those living in it with the police. This is common experience now throughout the country. If people are caught listening to the B.B.C. Greek language programmes to Athens they can be sentenced to from two to four years' imprisonment. In Thessaly and elsewhere such cases are confirmed. There is compulsory church going, as a sop to the church, which is one way of finding one's way to the new Fascist heaven. This is not all. Compulsion is buttressed by the determination of Mr. Kollias to produce what he calls the nearest thing "to a perfect man" in due course in Greece. It is an astonishing vocabulary to use in the middle of a lawless mutiny and revolution. Yet these busy men even found time for other serious work like banning miniskirts and beards.

People must not call the junta a dictatorship. They have been imprisoned for calling it that. To prove, no doubt, that it was not a savage dictatorship, they were put in prison. If people want to go through Yugoslavia, to Austria or the West, they must sign a document that they will not contact any Yugoslav. That would be difficult enough, unless one were very good at dodging the Customs.

There is no mail to Eastern Europe. The universities are being interfered with unbelievably and most deplorably. The civil servants have to attend brain washing classes and have to become exemplary blood donors. One can almost understand that, with a stupid Government of that kind, they are bound to become bloodthirsty in respect of their academics and politicians. It is not surprising that the civil servants give the last drop of their blood in compulsory loyalty to this great Fascist cause—to keep their jobs. 2518 The students have now to wear identity badges. As I have said, there is censorship of the Press, of the mail, of the theatre and of the cinema, all literate activity and culture.

The tragedy is that the junta in Greece cannot let go and survive. It cannot suddenly stop being a so-called Government. It cannot suddenly decide to cancel out the mutiny or suddenly stop being censor, civil service and all the other different things it is doing so clumsily. If it did that, it would be letting go the lion's tail. There is a calm in the streets of Athens. The tourist industry in Athens is very important. Calm, therefore, is enforced and there appears to be acquiescence; helpless calm. But the Fascists cannot let go. This is the danger. Unless they are prised away by force or unbearable pressures from their power, they will not let go voluntarily; I am sure of that. Every new statement which is made, therefore, more and more cancels out all the fine promises of the early days about a new constitution in six months with a referendum and free elections. I have asked the junta leaders repeatedly for dates or estimates as to when the elections would be held. Not one Minister—the Prime Minister or the Minister of the Interior or any other—could give such a date or target. If people put placards on walls, they would be "shot". That is the wonderfully appropriate, terse, precise reply of the military junta in Greece. That was Mr. Pattalcos's own reply at an interview. Equally clearly he answered "Shot!" when asked about giving out leaflets.

Responsible journalists by the dozen have conducted interviews on the spot about the situation in Greece. Hon. Members will have seen during the last week a series of two first-class articles in The Times last week by a first-class team of journalists. They certainly did not exaggerate. They underplayed the situation in their reporting to make it credible in this country that such things could happen in Greece, in a civilised country, among the people who have so long been our respected friends and our allies, and very gallant ones at that, in more than one great war in this century.

To say that if we were to take action we should be interfering in Greek affairs is absolute nonsense. Mr. Cannellopoulos and Mr. Papandreou and his son have 2519 always welcomed the interest of British politicians and of the British generally in the affairs of Greece. So have all reasonable statesmen of all parties in that country. They are glad to see us interesting ourselves, in particular, in their struggle for the enlargement and widening of democracy. The aim of Mr. Papandreou's party and of Andreas Papandreou, in particular, was to bring Greece right into the second half of the twentieth century politically and economically as a modern state. She has a long way to go. Her modern Parliamentary democracy does not go back many years; though one could say that of the full franchise in this country, too. At least, in this country we were given the full free opportunity to develop and expand it and to make it universal and to establish and consolidate it through the years without that sort of disturbance by rebels and mutineers or violence. Greece has been less fortunate.

I could give many evidences of the feelings of the people from the Right wing and the Centre. I am not talking of the Greek Left. Apart from anything else they were in gaol since the coup—and still are—as the noble Lord knows. Every leader of the Left was either on one of the islands or in the concentration camps. It is important for a journalist to get all shades of opinion from the whole political spectrum. The noble Lord should know these things.

§ Mr. David Winnick (Croydon, South)

He does not want to know them.

§ Mr. MacMillan

Some of those of the Right-wing party were also in gaol or under police surveillance in their homes. Many Centre Union M.P.s were also in goal, and many awaiting trial. More of them, indeed, are in prison now, with no charges against them, than when we were there. More Centre Union Members of Parliament are in prison awaiting trial, uncharged, or on spurious charges than were in prison or under detention at the time of the coup.

It is with no pleasure that we have to condemn what has been happening in Greece. There is no excuse on earth for it. There was an electoral and general calm prevailing in Greece in late April, which even the military coup itself, be- 2520 cause of its surprise and suddenness, did not completely disturb, because nobody, least of all at Easter, expected these things, such organised treachery, and because there was no organised, armed resistance on the Centre or Left.

We know why the coup was so successful technically. It is because a N.A.T.O. exercise, planned to take over in national crisis, was used to carry out that undemocratic operation against the Parliament and the people. But we are involved in this, too. The peace of Europe could be involved in issues, which threaten the peace of Cyprus. This is obviously now a greater danger spot in the world than ever. As long as these rebels are there, in power in Athens, it daily becomes increasingly more dangerous.

I hope that Her Majesty's Government and all our allies, at least in N.A.T.O., in the Western Europe organisations, and in Scandinavia, will use every possible pressure to prise these dangerous people out—because the only thing they recognise is power and pressure. Logic and persuasion cannot hope to be used with success. They must be forced to relinquish the illegal power which they seized by mutiny, condoned by people in the Establishment, who are not themselves concerned with democracy in Greece, but only with holding on to their own power in turn.

It is high time that the Greek people were helped to speak again freely for themselves, as they were about to do at the elections of 28th May. If they had been able to do that, there would today be a government of the Centre Union, centred about a hard core of people who had resisted every attempt at their bribery and corruption—honest, intelligent and progressive men. That is the Government that the people would have had. Instead of that, they have the tragedy and humiliation of a military rebel junta of stupid men. The sooner that a proper Government can be established once again the better for the Greek people—and for the peace of the world.

§ Viscount Lambton (Berwick-upon-Tweed)

The hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Malcolm MacMillan) has spoken with great passion on the subject of Greece. I would like to try to look a little less passionately at it than 2521 he has done, although I would like to begin by saying that I associate myself with many of the remarks and sentiments which he has expressed. Nobody can like seeing the destruction by a military junta of a democratic régime. Nobody, on either side, can like seeing the closure of a free Press or the throwing into prison of a large number of parliamentarians and people who are opposed to the authority in power.

What is of interest, however, is to realise why and how this happened. When the revolution came, it came so totally peaceably that, as far as I know, the only casualty in the whole of that night was the young Mr. Papandreou, who fell out of an attic and cut his leg on an electric installation.

There cannot be a bloodless revolution unless there is considerable assent to it. It is my belief that there was considerable assent to the revolution, because democracy in Greece has ceased to be the ideal democracy which the hon. Member for the Western Isles likes so much to defend and had become very much a corrupt oligarchy.

There were in Greece about 400 Mem13.rs of Parliament, which is roughly equivalent to 2,400 Members of Parliament in this country. I do not think that it is realised exactly what undemocratic advantages those men had. To begin with, they all had £4,000 a year free of tax. They could buy land on which to build their houses at an almost nominal price. Another almost overwhelming advantage was that they could travel free anywhere in the world by any means of Greek transport. Therefore, if a Greek Member of Parliament wished to go to New York and to come back via Tokyo, there was nothing to stop him doing so as long as he could do it by Greek transport.