HC Deb 04 November 1954 vol 532 cc603-81

3.40 p.m.

Mr. F. J. Bellenger (Bassetlaw)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, after "Minister," to insert: who shall be a member of the Defence Committee. It is quite obvious that the Bill deals only in a small way with the very important subject of Civil Defence, which we are precluded from discussing today, but I want to call attention to the position of the Home Secretary, who is the designated Minister. I suggest that his position ought to be much more clearly defined in relation to the important measures that he will have to undertake and in relation to which he will to a certain extent be dependent upon the good will of the Service Ministers.

Whether mobile columns or something else are required depends upon the part that Civil Defence is to play if we should again be involved in war. At present, the Home Secretary is called into consultation with his Service colleagues on the Defence Committee when that Committee is considering matters of defence. He is not a permanent member of the Committee. There is no statutory authority for the setting up of the Committee or its members, but any right hon. Gentleman who has been a Member of a Government will know that the Defence Committee, which is one of our most important Cabinet Committees, consists of the Prime Minister, the Service Ministers and their chief advisers, and certain other Ministers. It does not include the Home Secretary.

The Service Ministers have a clearly defined rôle in the Committee. They are there to consider matters of defence. I suggest that Civil Defence now assumes just as important a rôle as do the Service Departments. In other words, Civil Defence is likely to be the fourth arm of defence in time of war. Under the Bill, the Home Secretary will have no authority to call up National Service reservists for the purposes for which he wants them, which he has already explained to the House in the Second Reading debate. That, presumably, will be done by the Service Ministers and, as we understood the debate that took place last week, the Service Minister in the most immediate case is to be the Secretary of State for Air. The Home Secretary will, therefore, be dependent to a large extent upon the good will of the Service Ministers, and especially the Secretary of State for Air.

At present, that Minister has quite a large number of National Service reservists for whom he has no further use after they have finished their two years' training. Under the Bill, he is able to lend these men to the Home Secretary if he wants them—as, indeed, he told us he did—to the extent of 15,000 in the first year and 30,000 in the second year. In this explanation of the matter during the Second Reading debate the Home Secretary told us that these Royal Air Force reservists would be available in the first year if war should break out, but he did not say what would happen after that.

3.45 p.m.

If, in the event of war, the Secretary of State for Air decides after the first year that he wants these men back in the Royal Air Force, what will be the position of the Home Secretary, especially if he has not been in close integration with the Service Ministers? In peace-time the Defence Committee, which goes back for some 50 years under the name of the Committee of Imperial Defence, decides and formulates plans which are to come into operation in the event of war. Twice within our time—in the 1914–18 and 1939–45 wars—that Committee has virtually become the inner War Cabinet, controlling all the operations and affairs of State, subject always to the approval of the Cabinet itself.

I want to refer to a book dealing with the functions of this Committee. It was written by Lord Hankey, who is an undoubted authority on matters of this kind. The book was published in 1946 and is called "Diplomacy by Conference." Lord Hankey explains what happened in the First World War, and goes on to say that in the Committee of Imperial Defence—as it then was, … there should be a corresponding close contact in peace between the fighting Services and the civilians and civil servants on whom responsibility for many vital services ancillary to operations of war falls. He went on: This can best be done by discussing these matters on equal terms round a table. In other words, the central organisation should be inter-Departmental. I maintain that the Defence Committee as at present constituted is not as fully inter-Departmental as it should be.

My Amendment, therefore, provides that the Home Secretary should be just as important and constant a member of the Defence Committee as any of the Service members. In time of war—and, certainly, in time of peace, which may cover a period of preparation for the unfortunate circumstances of war if they should occur—the Home Secretary, being responsible for Civil Defence, should be sitting regularly in the Committee, discussing matters of Civil Defence not only for its own sake but also in relation to the plans being made by the Service Departments, so that he can be thoroughly informed upon what the Service Ministers have in prospect.

In this connection, I was very much surprised to see that no representative of Civil Defence or the Home Office was present at the recent exercise "Battle Royal" carried out in Germany. That operation provided an opportunity not only of exercising the Air Force and the Army, but also of bringing in Civil Defence experts. As far as I can gather not one representative from the Home Office was there to see what happened when the Air Force and the Army operated together.

It is true that Civil Defence is mainly a civilian matter, because civilians will be the principal sufferers if atom bombs are dropped, but if one is to alleviate the sufferings of the civilians and also keep the wheels of industry turning it is obvious that the Home Secretary will need something more than purely civilian organisations in order to maintain those services upon which the Armed Forces will depend.

Therefore, although it may be said that this is a matter of Government administration, and that the Home Secretary is frequently called to meetings of the Defence Committee, I think something more is required. If the Home Secretary is really serious about the purposes of the Bill he should agree to the Amendment. Otherwise, it will look as if we are only tampering with the subject and not coping with it as much as we should. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), who was Home Secretary, and who was, I believe, on a sub-committee on Civil Defence during the war, told us in his Second Reading speech how difficult a situation he found himself in at that time. I suggest that it may have been due to the fact that even then the Home Secretary, who was also responsible for Civil Defence, was only a subsidiary or ancillary member of the Defence Committee.

Matters discussed in the Defence Committee in time of peace may not be so important as those discussed there in time of war, and it may be said that in time of peace it is not as important as in time of war to discuss Civil Defence in the Defence Committee. Twice, however, we have been confronted with an emergency. It was due to the fact that complete plans had been arranged, largely through discussions in the Defence Committee, that we were able to enter upon the 1939 to 1945 war with fewer mishaps than befell us when we entered the 1914 to 1918 war.

I hope that the Committee will support my Amendment. It may not at the moment be so necessary as it would be in time of war, but I believe that something more is necessary than the liaison to which the Home Secretary referred in his Second Reading speech—the liaison between himself and his Service colleagues. There should be close consultation and collaboration between the Service Chiefs and Sir Sidney Kirkman, the Civil Defence Chief of Staff, as he may now be called, who, under the Home Secretary, is in charge of Civil Defence matters. Sir Sidney Kirkman was a member of the Army Council some years ago; he is a prominent soldier, and may have excellent relations with his Service colleagues. No doubt he has, but more than that is required, and I think he should be brought into the Defence Committee just as much as the Service chiefs if we are to have the fullest possible benefit of the Bill.

Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer (Worthing)

I do not think the question is whether this suggested provision is more necessary in peace-time or in war-time. The question is whether it is a suitable arrangement. In my view, it is unnecessary for this reason. The Prime Minister is Chairman of the Defence Committee and has the power to invite, whenever he deems it wise to do so, any other Minister to attend the Committee. Therefore, whenever anything is to be discussed that relates to Civil Defence, or to the Armed Forces in relation to Civil Defence, surely the Home Secretary will be called in. It is not necessary for him to be there on other occasions when matters are discussed that are purely Army or Navy matters.

Furthermore, I believe that there has never been an instance of the House or a Committee of the House deciding by legislation who shall sit in the Defence Committee of the Cabinet. I do not think that we have here a strong reason for departing from precedent. The Amendment would fetter the Prime Minister in his choice of Ministers. So would this Committee or the House if it were to adopt the principle that it should decide who should sit in any Cabinet Committee.

I would rather put this plea to my right hon. and gallant Friend. I think the time is drawing near, as I said in the debate on Second Reading, when we need a commander-in-chief of the whole of Home Defence, which includes Civil Defence. If we were to appoint such an officer we should be taking the right way to get him through the door of the Cabinet Committee. The right way to ensure getting a man into the Defence Committee is to appoint him as commander-in-chief of Home Defence, with Civil Defence under his command.

Mr. John Strachey (Dundee, West)

I want to add only a few words to the detailed consideration that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) has adduced in moving the Amendment, and they are of a more general character. It seems to me that the essence of the thing is the purpose behind the Amendment, and that that meets the arguments advanced by the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer). The Amendment is one way in which we who are supporting it express our feeling, which we expressed so strongly on Second Reading, and which we wish to express again here, that nothing in the Bill yet allays our fear that Civil Defence still remains the Cinderella of our general defence arrangements.

Whether or not the Government are going to tell us that this way, by legislation, to which the hon. and gallant Member objected, is the way to do it, the fact remains that it seems to us that the admission of the designated Minister, the Home Secretary, to the Defence Committee would do as much as or more than anything else to place Civil Defence on the level of one of the other Defence Services in the general scheme of our defence arrangements. We put very strongly to the Committee that the time has come when that is becoming a national necessity.

All the arguments we hear about the appalling character of any future conflict, all those glimpses of a third world war we were given by the eminent Field Marshal the other day, all those speeches of that character seem to us exceedingly rash until and unless we take our Civil Defence seriously. It is, after all, a proverbial adage that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Mr. E. Fernyhough (Jarrow)

Or hydrogen bombs.

Mr. Strachey

Yes, certainly, they should not throw hydrogen bombs, and we feel that to do something to make our house a little bit less of glass is now of the highest importance.

Anything we can do by way of Amendment to the Bill may not take us very far in that direction, but, nevertheless, we would like to hear from the Government that they think the designated Minister who is in charge of this branch of our defence should sit on the Defence Committee just as much as the Secretary of State for War or the First Lord of the Admiralty or the Secretary of State for Air. It seems to us that the time has come when this is just as important.

With great respect to the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing, for a Minister to be called into a Cabinet committee really is not the same thing as his being a member of it. Everyone of us who has sat on those bodies knows that only too well. It makes the whole difference to the possibility of the Minister in question putting the point of view of the Service for which he is responsible whether he is a regular attender of the meetings. If he is only called in at intervals his position is incomparably weakened.

Whether or not the correct way to achieve this is by legislation is another matter, but, in any event, it seems to us in all seriousness that this apparently revolutionary step of ensuring that the Minister for Civil Defence shall be a member of the highest defence council is a point to which the Government ought to pay very careful attention. This is not a frivolous Amendment. We should like to hear what the Government have to say on the subject.

4.0 p.m.

Mr. George Wigg (Dudley)

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) has done a most useful service in putting down this Amendment, although I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brig. Prior-Palmer) that legislation is probably not the way in which to deal with this problem. After all, if it crept on to the Statute Book it would still not be beyond the realm of the ingenuity of the Front Bench opposite to find a way round it. We could easily have Defence Committee A and Defence Committee B. The Home Secretary would be on Defence Committee A, which would not meet, and the Prime Minister would be on Defence Committee B, which would meet as often as he wished.

We are not concerned so much about machinery as about the organisation of Civil Defence. My instincts, like those of the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing, are in favour of militarising the organisation, but we must recognise that there would be great difficulties about it. I thought that during the war we were beginning to work towards a formula which secured military precision and military order and, at the same time, retained the essential democratic process. We must retain that democratic process. If the worst happened, and we had widespread breakdown, we should need all the help the Armed Forces could give. On the other hand, we must not allow to grow in this country the feeling that all we have to do is to call in the soldier, while the civilian need do nothing. This is, in essence, civil defence; it must be civil defence. The civilian population must feel that the military are coming in to help them to salvage their homes and their lives.

I, too, have seen the military machine at close quarters and I am a little frightened by the constant erosion into our civilian world of ex-military gentlemen. I am not sure that long service in, the Armed Forces is an essential part of the equipment of a democrat. After all, we can easily fall into the frame of mind—I myself am often guilty of it on occasions—which tends to expect too instantaneous obedience, perhaps in our own families. Sometimes one values discussion for oneself and burkes at it a little when others want it, too.

There are aspects of our national life which perhaps to an increasing extent are influenced by the military, and while I am saying nothing disrespectful of or discourteous to the distinguished officer now responsible for Civil Defence, I wonder whether, in the long run, we should not have been wiser to look for somebody who knew a great deal about local government organisation and who could easily carry local government administrators with him. I do not for a single moment suggest that the officer now holding the position is at cross-purposes with local authorities, but local government in this country is an intricate business and it would be valuable for him to have not only the knowledge of it which one can acquire from books but also the instinctive feel for it which comes to many hon. Members on both sides of the Committee who have served their apprenticeship in local government. I am sure the Minister bears this point in mind.

I am sure that many hon. Members opposite share our view that we want the best sort of Civil Defence we can get within our capacity to pay. If any hon. Members are thinking in terms of large numbers of mobile columns and of thousands of men sitting round playing draughts and cards, waiting for the next war, they are baying for the moon. It would not work. However good the quality of the men recruited in the first place, their morale would certainly be sapped in that kind of existence. It just is not "on."

We sympathise with the Home Secretary, who is new to the office, but we must tell him that Civil Defence is being treated as a Cinderella. I do not think that the problem can be worked out merely by making the Home Secretary a member of the Defence Committee. We want an assurance from him, which I hope we shall be given before the Bill is on the Statute Book, that he will fight really hard. We know that he will have to fight. Even if there were a Labour Administration the Home Secretary would have to fight with the Service Departments in order to see that Civil Defence was not regarded as a Cinderella. It is certain that at the moment it is regarded as a Cinderella. If it were not, we should see the Brigade of Guards on the Horse Guards with a stirrup pump.

Mr. Strachey

Only one?

Mr. Wigg

If they attached importance to Civil Defence we should probably find them on guard outside Buckingham Palace with a stirrup pump.

Mr. Ian Harvey (Harrow, East)

Or the Horse Guards?

Mr. Wigg

Or outside Royal Palaces, or wherever they held their ceremonials. Instead of that, they have a lump of wood, with a pipe down the middle, which serves no useful purpose except for ornamentation. We call it a rifle. It is completely out of date and rightly belongs to a museum.

Mr. Harvey

Oh.

Mr. Wigg

The hon. Gentleman should remember that we recently had a most authoritative statement from a distinguished gentleman who expressed his doubts about the new rifle because it could not be handled for ceremonial purposes. I should be out of order if I pursued that point.

The Home Secretary's job is not to persuade but to fight in order to see that the Services regard Civil Defence as an essential part of defence. Just as the civilian population cannot expect the soldier to rush in and help them while they do nothing, equally the Armed Forces cannot expect the civilian services to come in and tackle their job for them. We are all in this together. If war breaks out, then unless this country can be kept going and life can carry on, we might as well hoist the white flag or suggest to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) that he should form an Administration on the policy in which he so passionately believes.

Following the Government's White Paper, we know the kind of schemes needed to deal with the type of war which has been described to us. We must start thinking about it now. Not only must we think about it, but things must begin to happen now—and nothing is happening yet. There is probably not a single unit in the Army carrying out efficiently even the defence which will be necessary to protect its own installations in its own barracks in the case of air action of the kind which the previous Home Secretary described—the kind of air action which is clearly at the back of the mind of those who wrote the last Defence White Paper.

I wholeheartedly support my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) that we ought to be given by the Government a categorical assurance—even though this may be a small and perhaps not a very important Bill—that when he gets down to this job the Home Secretary will fight a continuous battle, with the support of hon. Members on both sides of the House, to see that this subject is given the importance which it deserves.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Major Gwilym Lloyd-George)

It might be useful if I intervene for a moment at this stage to deal with points raised by hon. Members, to whose speeches I have listened with interest. I fully sympathise with the desire behind the Amendment, which is simply to make it certain that the Home Secretary is a member of the Defence Committee, thus practically ensuring that the fears expressed by the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey)—that Civil Defence will become a Cinderella—are not realised. I personally do not have any intention whatever of playing the rôle of Cinderella.

Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

Or the wicked sister?

Major Lloyd-George

I do not suppose that I should look very well in the rôle. At any rate, I have no intention of playing that rôle.

I say at once that I sympathise with the desire of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West, but I do not think that the Amendment is necessary. It would mean, technically, that there would have to be, in addition to the Home Secretary, the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Health, who are also designated Ministers under the Civil Defence Act. Even if it were desirable that the Home Secretary should be a member of the Defence Committee, I am inclined to agree with the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) that it would be undesirable in principle, and contrary to precedent, to make this a subject of legislation.

The Defence Committee is concerned even today with a great many things outside Civil Defence or home defence, as I should call it. All I can say is that whenever anything remotely concerned with Civil Defence is discussed, the Home Secretary is there——

Mr. Hughes

The Secretary of State for Scotland is not.

Major Lloyd-George

When anything concerns him particularly, he certainly is.

Mr. Hughes

I meant here.

Major Lloyd-George

I am sorry. I was talking about the Committee and the hon. Gentleman apparently meant here. All I wanted to say was this. The Home Secretary is invariably invited—and I speak from personal experience—on any matter that is remotely concerned with Civil Defence.

I remember the debate in 1946, in which the present Leader of the Opposition, who was then Prime Minister, was dealing with this very point. It is not without interest to read what he said on that occasion. He said, referring to the Defence Committee: In the same way, there will be problems in which one will certainly need to have the Home Secretary, when the home defence angle comes up, … He went on to say, referring to the Committee: It sits with a nucleus of Ministers, and other Ministers are called in from time to time, but it would be a waste of time to have Ministers sitting on the Committee when they were not really concerned. They should always be there when they are needed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd November, 1946; Vol. 430, c. 1190–1.] I think that it worked perfectly well in that way. While, as I have said, I fully sympathise with what the right hon. Gentleman has in mind, I do not see that there is any need for the Amendment at all.

There are one or two points which I think may well arise in the course of our discussion with which I should like to deal. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley repeated something that I said during the Second Reading of the Bill—that this is a small Bill. It was never intended to be anything else. I want the Committee to appreciate that fact. It arose out of the policy which was commenced by the right hon. Gentleman and which we went on with—the policy of mobile columns—and it is really a question of taking advantage of the offer of people available to man these mobile columns and to be trained. Section 1 of the Act of 1948 does not make it clear that the Home Secretary has the right to train these people, and that is the reason for this Bill being introduced.

4.15 p.m.

Mr. Wigg

I am sure it will save time if we get this matter cleared up. On this side of the Committee, we cannot accept for a moment that the origin of the Bill is the 1948 Act. Its origin was in the statement in the House on 2nd March by the present Minister of Works, who foreshadowed this legislation because the R.A.F. was unable to provide training for all its reservists.

Major Lloyd-George

This is really the logical consequence of what has been happening. The policy of mobile columns was initiated by the previous Administration, and, whatever was said in March, the effect of this Bill is to make it possible for those men who are now available—as it happens from the R.A.F.—to be trained for this purpose.

The hon. Member for Dudley said that the Bill was small. Do not let us try and make it a big Bill. I repeat that the Government are now very actively looking into the whole question, which is a very different question from what it was a year ago. This is purely a step to allow a start to be made.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about keeping this as Civil Defence. It is very important that this should be done. While, as he said, military aid would be very welcome at times—and that general question is being looked at—it is in the main a question of Civil Defence. I had experience in the last war of the Civil Defence mobile columns, in connection with food rather than with rescue work, and that work was done entirely by civilians. I think that anyone who has had experience of these columns would agree that it was one of the finest organisations; in the recent floods also it did excellent work. I suppose one of the most difficult times to hold a rehearsal is a Sunday afternoon after lunch, and the recent exercise was extraordinarily well done.

I know that the hon. Gentleman is worried about intrusion of military people into our affairs, but it may well be that there are more about than there used to be. The hon. Gentleman himself, if he looks round these benches, can see many hon. Members who could at one time be called "military." But the point is that this is essentially Civil Defence, and when we look to augmentation of that defence we shall have to go to the Services.

As I said earlier, do not let us pretend that this is a big Measure; it is a small Measure.

Mr. Ede (South Shields)

This is a small Measure in size, but its content is very big indeed. It is true that the only Service Minister we see here today is the Under-Secretary of State for Air, who comes offering gifts, but only gifts of surplus. There are other Departments, military Departments, and this Bill applies to them as much as to the hon. and gallant Gentleman's Department. Let us be under no illusion about that.

As I said the other day, this brings every member of the Armed Forces into liability for Civil Defence and into liability for training, from the Chief of the Imperial General Staff down to the last boy to join the band. If the need arises, the Government will not have any doubt on that. They will not need a new Bill to bring in a sailor or soldier. Every member of the Armed Forces—National Service, Regular, Territorial, R.N.V.R. or of whatever description is now made liable for Civil Defence work and to undergo training. Let us keep that clearly in our minds in our discussion today.

Apart from the fact that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman still pleads that the Bill is only a little Bill, I welcome everything he has said. This is not a small Bill in its ultimate effects. Therefore, on that point, I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) rather understated the position. I am sure that the Home Secretary will not disagree that if needs be the Government, through co-operation between the various Departments concerned, can assign any member of the Armed Forces to any Civil Defence need that there may be, not confined to mobile columns. We might even have the Chief of the Imperial General Staff detailed out with one of the food columns dishing out extra sweet tea.

There used to be a saying in the Army when I was in it that if a soldier was good, the sergeant major would bring him a cup of tea in the morning. The Bill at last makes it possible for the sergeant-major to do it for the civilians of the country. In my experience, he never did it for the members of the Armed Forces. I merely say that to discount the idea that the Bill is something small. I could have foreseen circumstances in which it might have been said that in this unpretentious Measure the Government were here trying to sneak through the liabilities for everybody that I have just mentioned.

After having had some experience, I am not satisfied that the Home Secretary will be able to get all that he wants on the conditions that he has laid down as his own personal contribution. After all, at a Cabinet meeting the Home Secretary is present throughout—he puts in a word on any subject that arises; but other Ministers come to the Cabinet. On occasion, one sees in the Press that the Minister of Transport, for example, was present. He comes in when his business is called and he leaves when it is over. That is not the same as being a member of the Cabinet.

That is what used to happen. Things may have improved. If there is any discussion on the Committee of Defence with the Prime Minister in the chair in present circumstances, it may be that somebody gets a word in edgeways. But the Home Secretary's picture of it was that if Civil Defence is coming up, he will be there. After waiting outside while the other people have been dealing with the earlier items on the agenda, he will go in when his part of the matter is being discussed and then he will leave. In view of what the Prime Minister said in the House in his interruption to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) in the Suez debate, the Home Secretary and the forces for which he will be responsible are as much a part of the defence of the country as any for which the Under-Secretary for State for Air or either of the other Service Ministers is responsible.

I hope that in the consideration of the defence of this country under the arrangements that, we understand, are now under consideration, the Home Secretary will be able to get that place which will enable him to be present when the general considerations of the resources available are under discussion. In my view—and this is shared, I think, by all my hon. and right hon. Friends—the developments of the last 12 months must lead to a considerable recasting of the whole of our ideas about the deployment of manpower.

That is one reason I am somewhat dubious about the arrangement by which the Home Secretary is to have airmen for about the first 12 months and then we are not told what will happen when those trained and disciplined airmen disappear. That kind of thing has to be thought out, and when the three Services are sharing the men out among themselves the right hon. and gallant Gentleman ought to be present to make quite sure that he gets his share.

I share my hon. Friend's misgivings about the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer), although I pay him the tribute that throughout he has always been very interested and insistent on the important part that Civil Defence would have to play. I hope that the Home Secretary will realise that the Amendment is put down in no unfriendly spirit to him but in an endeavour to ensure that he and the service for which he particularly stands must in future be regarded as at least the equal of the other three Services in all these considerations.

I agree with the constitutional point that has been taken that this would be the first time that the Committee of Defence has become known to the law. None the less, there are many things that are not known to the law that have a considerable influence on the disposition of this country in both civil and military affairs. We shall hope that the Home Secretary—let us hope, not unhelped by the discussion we have had this afternoon—will be in a stronger position than any previous Home Secretary in discussing the matters with which the Bill is concerned in the widest aspects that the Bill can be used to obtain.

We have had a useful discussion. After any further discussion that may take place, I would suggest to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) that in all the circumstances it might not be necessary to press the Amendment to a Division. But we hope that the Home Secretary will realise that this does not mean that we do not feel very strongly on the position that the holder of his office ought to hold when general matters of defence are being considered.

Mr. Ian Harvey

I intervene briefly to express my support from this side of the Committee for the principle underlying the Amendment. It follows automatically that if we say—and it has been said from a very high quarter by my right hon. and gallant Friend's predecessor—that Civil Defence is the fourth arm of defence, it must be represented equally with the other three Services. I have not had the same experience as the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) of Cabinet procedure and of standing outside doors and not getting a word in edgeways——

Mr. Ede

I did not say that I did not get a word in edgeways. I never attended a Committee under the chairmanship of the present Prime Minister.

Mr. Harvey

Obviously, it was wrong of me to assume that the right hon. Gentleman had occupied such a position. I hope, however, that in any future planning that might take place my right hon. and gallant Friend the Home Secretary will bear in mind this important principle. I very much support the view that the Bill contains a much bigger principle than the actual practical expression of legislation that it contains.

The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) has once again returned to his favourite hare about the origin of this legislation. It is true that one of the problems—a problem arising partially from the legislation of his own party when in Government—has been to find ways and means of employing these airmen. It is also true that this particular need to find men to man the mobile columns was coincidental and, therefore, this Bill is the product of coincidence and its origin does not lie purely in the situation which the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley outlined and is, no doubt, about to outline again.

4.30 p.m.

Mr. Wigg

It is important once again to return to this point. I will send the hon. Member a copy of HANSARD for 2nd March where, in column 1035, he will see that the legislation this afternoon was outlined in the defence debate, which is why I am so surprised to see it farmed out to the Home Office. The hon. Member himself was there at that time. He was also present at the Committee proceedings in Standing Committee A when this admission was reluctantly unearthed by the Under-Secretary of State for Air. I assure him I am not making any party points. He knows me too well for that. If we can get the hon. Member to recognise that this is a problem that had its origin with that admission of the Government, then we can join together in an all-party approach and try to find the solution today.

Mr. Harvey

The hon. Member, of course, did not disappoint me. I still maintain just as fervently that this has a dual origin and if we can agree on that we can go forward together. But it is quite unfair to assume that my right hon. and gallant Friend is using what would be a very inadequate reason for this particular legislation.

I support the principle underlying this Amendment just as I support the practical objection which the right hon. Member for South Shields, who has very long experience, has expressed. But I hope my right hon. Friend will not accept this Amendment, but will consider very carefully the principle underlying it.

Mr. John Dugdale (West Bromwich)

I should like to support my right hon. Friend's Amendment. The Home Secretary expressed sympathy and said he had a general appreciation of the desire to help—or words to that effect. But, at the same time, he said that he was unable to do anything about it. He gave various reasons why, broadly, that if he was to be on the committee a number of other Ministers would have to be there, too. They are, no doubt, valid reasons which I can appreciate, but I would remind him of what I was told by the late Lord Addison. When he first came to office he called all his officials around him and told them, "When I ask if something is practical you can give me six perfectly good reasons why it should be done and six equally good reasons why it should not be done. Please give me the reasons why it should be done first."

If the Home Secretary does this he will see many good reasons why it should be done. We want to help him. We realise it is more difficult to work from outside a committee than it is from inside it. Whatever he may say, those of us who have had experience of waiting for defence committees, or for Cabinet meetings, know what it is like. I have sat outside a Cabinet for a very long time when no less a person than Lord Montgomery was also waiting. I have had to wait on various occasions but I imagine that it is not often that Lord Montgomery has to wait.

It is very difficult for Ministers to wait until they are called, and even if they have the right to be there, to be present only on special occasions. I think it would be very helpful if the Minister could accept the spirit of the Amendment; I see the difficulty of accepting an Amendment which will tie arrangements inside the Cabinet to this extent. But he should give an assurance that if the Amendment be withdrawn he will do his utmost to see that he becomes a member of this committee. I agree that he cannot promise that, but if he can say that it is his intention to get on this committee and he will ask the Prime Minister, to make him a member of it, that would go a long way to meet what my right hon. Friend has in mind.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) said that there was no need for him to sit there because he could be called in from time to time. I wonder whether it would be suggested that there was no need for the Secretary of State for Air to sit there, because he could go in when air matters were discussed, or that the Secretary of State for War be called only when war matters were being discussed. Obviously, those Departments would object very strongly and say they ought to be permanent members of the Defence Committee and I hope that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, who has responsibility for this particular branch of defence, will take just as strong a line as other members, and assure his place on it in future.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

I have not had the unfortunate experience of waiting outside the doors of the Cabinet to be consulted, but I find the reasons produced by the Home Secretary for rejecting this Amendment very inconclusive indeed.

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman said if the Home Secretary is to be invited to a Defence Committee then the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Health must be invited, too, because they are the designated Ministers under the terms of the 1948 Bill. I want to see the Secretary of State for Scotland on this particular Committee. Indeed, I want to see him in the House when these things are discussed.

Surely that is a very modest request indeed, when the affairs of the civilian population are being discussed. Yet the designated Minister does not condescend to sit and listen to the debate. We have had the unfortunate experience in two debates on Civil Defence now that each has been opened by the Home Secretary and concluded by the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, and although these gentlemen have no powers at all in Scotland and although the Secretary of State for Scotland is the designated Minister, none of the Ministers for Scotland has spoken at all. That is a complete neglect of the civilian population for Scotland, which is, of course, traditional.

Mr. Percy Morris (Swansea, West)

I hope that my hon. Friend will not press the point too much, as the Prime Minister will make the Home Secretary not only the Minister for Welsh Affairs but a Minister for Scotland as well.

Mr. Hughes

I know you too well, Sir Rhys, to think you would allow me to explore that particular avenue.

What are we asking in this Amendment? There is a committee which is supposed to be called together to consider defence of this country. I thought that defence of the country meant defence of its civilians. I think it is imperative, in view of the appalling state of civilian defence, that instead of Service Ministers being the sole Ministers concerned there should be somebody there putting the case on every possible occasion of the people in the front line, the people who are to be bombed.

I heard Lord Montgomery on television one night say that the safest place in the next war would be in the Army, but not all the civilian population can get into the Army. I do not know whether he will solve the problem by inviting all the women to go into the women's Services. The way the civilian population is being treated by defence Ministers is something which the House should rectify in this Amendment.

The Secretary of State for Air is in the Defence Committee and he is out to look after the interests of the Air Force. That is why he is there. That is why there is a sum of £500 million in the Air Estimates for the purpose of obtaining bombers with which to bomb the civilian populations of other countries. In the Air Ministry there is no question of priorities for the civil population. I want priorities for the civil population and not for the Services. Surely that is not an unreasonable request.

Not only are there priorities in this question, but super-priorities, though those super-priorities are not for the civilian population. As the Prime Minister has told us, they are for the heavy bombers. If the Home Secretary were a member of this Defence Committee he could say when the question of these bombers was being considered, "Oh, no, you are not going to get £500 million this year for heavy bombers until we get something for Civil Defence. You know very well that if this money is spent on heavy bombers they will go to some part of the world to carry out their mission, and the immediate response will be that heavy bombers from the bombed country will come over here and bomb our civil population."

A Minister who was interested in the civil population would also argue, "Every £1 million we give to you for heavy bombers, makes more dangerous and more difficult the position of the civil population after whom I am looking." That is why we on this side of the Committee are anxious to see the right hon. and gallant Gentleman a member of the Defence Committee.

Let us imagine what will happen when the Defence Committee is in session giving consideration to the amounts needed for the Service Estimates. The Admiralty will say, "We want £400 million to spend on the Navy." If this Amendment were passed the Home Secretary or the Secretary of State for Scotland would reply, "Oh, yes, but what do you want a Navy for if you cannot protect the civilian population against atom bombers?" The Admiralty would reply, "We go back to Trafalgar. We are an ancient institution and there would be an impossible precedent if we did not get the money we asked for." If there were a civilian in the Admiralty—[Laughter.] I did not mean in the Admiralty. I should be very glad if we had a spokesman for the ordinary man in the street among that collection of "brass hats." If the Home Secretary were a member of this Defence Committee, he would ask, "Why do you want £400 million for the Navy when we cannot get £20 million for Civil Defence?" The Admiralty would fall back again on Trafalgar.

Next, it would be the turn of the Secretary of State for War. He wants to get the biggest possible sum of money annually for the Army. That is his job. He would exclaim, "Civil Defence! Not at all, I want more tanks." He might then add, "I have a great scheme for improving the communications at the front in the event of an atomic war."

That is the sort of thing the Secretary of State for War says. He has already told us that in the next war it will be dangerous to have lorries on the road because they will be bombed so that supplies must be taken to the front line—if there is one—by helicopters. If this Amendment passes, the Home Secretary will then be in a position to reply to the Secretary of State for War, "But what about the communications on the home front? They need to be protected, too. There will be lorries going up and down Great Britain. What about helicopters on the home front?"

We are up against this factor when considering the Defence Committee. There is this formidable traditional, vested interest, strongly entrenched, that wants money for its own particular purposes. The Home Secretary is quite content that he should be outside the door and called in for consultation, while the Secretary of State for Scotland is quite content to be consulted from a telephone kiosk somewhere in Edinburgh.

In the last three or four years we have been spending about £15,000 million on the Services and the allocation to the defence of the civil population has been almost negligible. Only 1 per cent. of the money we voted for the rearmament programme has gone for the defence of the people who are in the greatest danger. So I say that not only do we need a suppliant at this Defence Committee, but we require somebody who will be prepared to go to its meetings and insist on money being spent to defend the ordinary people in the event of the plans of the strategists culminating in a third world war.

4.45 p.m.

Field Marshal Lord Montgomery put his finger on the point when he said, in drawing attention to the need for a more realistic approach to Civil Defence: If we visualised an atomic war, the importance of civil defence is apparent … When it is apparent to Lord Montgomery why is it not apparent to the Government? He went on to say: … yet the subject is grossly neglected today. There is no sound civil defence organisation in the national territory of any N.A.T.O. nation as far as I know. That is, indeed, an indictment of our defence arrangements, and if Field Marshal Lord Montgomery has said that, I do not understand why there should be any objection by the Government to supervising the military chiefs instead of being their obedient servants. I know it has been said—and probably rightly said—that in an atomic war a Field Marshal Montgomery will be as obsolete as Guy Fawkes.

The argument that the Home Secretary produces in answer to this Amendment is that such a step is not constitutional and not traditional. We have only achieved progress in this country by disturbing constitutional issues. I am surprised at the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, with a name like he has, being so respectful to traditions and the constitution. I knew a famous and celebrated Welshman, who, if he were here tonight, would be talking very much as we are in urging priorities for the civil population and to hell with the vested interests of the military people who are at the top at the present time.

Mr. Bellenger

I realised when I put this Amendment on the Order Paper that there would be difficulty in legislating for the purpose we are trying to achieve, but in view of the sympathetic speeches that have been made, not least by the Home Secretary himself, I hope it will be possible to accomplish by persuasion within the Government what evidently we are not able to achieve by legislation. In those circumstances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. H. Hynd (Accrington)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 9, to leave out "serving their term of part-time service," and to insert "liable to service."

This is an Amendment of some importance which, I hope, will be helpful to the Government and I believe they may be disposed to accept it or something like it. I could, of course, start by being somewhat pedantic about the wording, but I see my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Follick) in his place and I think he could argue that far better than I could. There seems at first glance to be some doubt whether the purpose of the Bill is to provide this training for those actually serving a term of part-time service or those who are liable to serve a period of part-time service.

But the purpose of the Amendment is not to be so pedantic about those words. There is something more important in it, and I suggest that the existing words are a complete misnomer. Incidentally, Sir Rhys, it might be for the convenience of the Committee to discuss with this Amendment the last Amendment on the Order Paper, to line 2 of the Title, namely, leave out "serving terms of part-time service," and insert "liable for service." They cover exactly the same point.

As the Bill stands, it is proposing to provide training for persons serving their term of part-time service. Why part-time service? As a matter of fact, in Clause 1 (2) we extend the duty of providing training in Civil Defence to members of all the Armed Forces of the Crown. Therefore, as it is to be extended to full-time members of the Armed Forces, I fail to see why we talk in the Title and in Clause 1 only of those serving their part-time service. Therefore, I suggest that the Bill ought to be described as applying to any members of the Armed Forces. That is one of the main reasons why I am interested in this Amendment——

Brigadier Prior-Palmer

On a point of order, Sir Rhys. May I ask you whether your silence means consent, and that we are discussing the two Amendments together?

The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris)

Yes, the Amendment to the Title is consequential upon this one.

Mr. Hynd

The Minister said that this is a small Bill and that we should not try to make it into a big one. I suggest, however, that in view of the difficulty of getting amending legislation, we ought to make it a complete measure which will serve the purpose for which it is intended. If we cannot do the job properly, we might as well do it as well as we can and if, by a small alteration in the wording, we achieve the purpose which the Minister has in mind, this is the time to do it.

The other reason I think this Amendment ought to be accepted is the one I gave during the Second Reading debate. It is that clearly we are still in an experimental period as regards Civil Defence, and it may well be that, while the conception of the present Bill is connected with mobile columns, they will not be the last answer on Civil Defence, and there may be other things involved. It may be that other members of the Armed Forces will be called on to play a part.

More than that, it will be remembered that I suggested it might be felt desirable some time, if not now, to enable members of the Armed Forces who have completed their full-time training and are liable for part-time training, to fulfil those part-time obligations by doing Civil Defence work, not necessarily in the mobile columns but perhaps in the Civil Defence Corps in their localities. This Amendment, if accepted, would enable the Government to require that at a later date, even if they do not want to do it at the present time. In other words, we want elasticity in the Civil Defence arrangements as applied to members of the Armed Forces, and this is the opportunity for the Government to get it. For those reasons, among others, I believe that the Minister should welcome this Amendment.

Brigadier Prior-Palmer

I am inclined to support this Amendment because, although this Bill is designed primarily to give the Government power to train part-time R.A.F. National Service men for Civil Defence, there is much wider power in subsection (5) of Clause 1. It seems rather a contradiction to retain that subsection or even to accept, if we do, the new Clause in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) and to leave this line reading as it does. No damage could be done by accepting this Amendment, and it might save amending legislation or an Order in Council at a later date, and therefore I feel, though not very strongly, that this Amendment ought to be accepted.

Mr. William Keenan (Liverpool, Kirkdale)

I am not sure whether I should support the Amendment or not. I cannot make up my mind because, whether the Amendment is accepted or not, it will not alter fundamentally the provisions of this Clause. However, what worries me is the fact that the Bill enables the Government to use all Service personnel for purposes of Civil Defence. I might not object even to that so long as it applied to all, but, here again, we are selecting those who shall be used for Civil Defence because of the failure to get the civil population to come forward in sufficient numbers.

We cannot even get military service without compulsory measures and the logic of the position is to do the same as regards Civil Defence, so long as that can be proved to be necessary. In this Clause and in the Amendment we are roping in for Civil Defence those who are liable for National Service and the intention is to use certain men who have not hitherto been called up for the R.A.F. However, the Bill goes beyond that, because it can take over for Civil Defence purposes every member of the Armed Forces if necessary, and I am disturbed that we should put an extra burden on to the National Service youth of the country when we should be considering reducing the period of 24 months——

The Deputy-Chairman

Order. The hon. Gentleman is widening too far the scope of the debate.

5.0 p.m.

Mr. Keenan

I have no intention of discussing the duration of the service. I am pointing out that during the time in which they have to serve 21 days in each year a section of the community are being told not only that they must be trained as soldiers, whether they like it or not, but must be trained in Civil Defence. I claim that too many are escaping Service liability and I do not think that we should be putting an additional obligation on existing National Service men.

The Deputy-Chairman

The hon. Member's present remarks would be more appropriate on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" than on the Amendment.

Mr. Keenan

That may very well be but, with respect, I should probably get a similar Ruling from the Chair then as you, Sir Rhys, are giving me now.

I am dealing with the point that these men are having thrust upon them an additional obligation, that only about 100,000 are concerned and that we are calling upon them to serve in this additional way when we have a population of about 24 million adults to draw upon.

The Deputy-Chairman

The Amendment is limited in scope to those who already have been called up.

Mr. Keenan

With respect, the Clause applies not only to members of the R.A.F.——

The Deputy-Chairman

The hon. Member is now discussing the Clause. He might make those remarks on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Keenan

Is not the position that the Amendment merely provides a change of words for the better interpretation of the Clause? How can I discuss the Amendment if I do not discuss what is amended?

The Deputy-Chairman

If the hon. Member discusses the Amendment he will be perfectly in order.

Mr. Keenan

With respect, I assert that I am in order. The Amendment is to leave out "serving their term of part-time service," and to insert "liable to service." That is what I am discussing, and the fact that these men are being called upon to do additional duty under the provisions of the Bill. Although it has been stated over and over again on Second Reading and today that this additional duty is confined very narrowly to R.A.F. personnel, the fact is that the Bill, which the Amendment seeks to alter, applies fully to all the Armed Forces of the Crown. Therefore, with respect, I do not see how I can be ruled out of Order.

I protest against the fact that only a limited number of men may be called upon to do this duty. I am not against Civil Defence. I should like to see more done in that respect. I know the value of it and I do not take the view of some authorities in the country that it is invalid. If it saves half-a-dozen out of a thousand lives or assists people when trouble comes it is well worth while to do all that we can for that service. I have no objection to using the Armed Forces for the purpose. I want the whole thing integrated, but I object, and will continue to object, to unfair discrimination and the calling upon one section of our youth to do this duty while others escape.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth)

It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I deal with the Amendment now. I do not believe that there is a real difference of opinion in the Committee about what we want to do in this connection, but I do not think that the Amendment has the effect which the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) thinks that it would have. The effect of the Amendment would be to extend the scope of the Civil Defence training arrangements which may be made by the designated Minister so to as to apply to all men having a service liability under the National Service Act, including those undergoing a period of whole-time National Service.

The Government fully realise that in future the Armed Forces will have to assume a much wider and more specific rôle in Civil Defence. We argued that matter, very rightly, on Second Reading. That point, in so far as it arises, is raised by the Amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) and others to leave out subsection (5) of the Clause, and also on the proposed new Clause in the name of the right hon. Gentleman. The Bill already gives power to train all those serving in the Armed Forces, and no question on that arises on the Amendment. The specific power of the Amendment would not give power to train those men at all.

The Amendment would extend the power of the designated Minister to provide for the training of those men. I am sure that the Committee will see that it would not be very appropriate if the Home Secretary were made the Minister responsible for giving training to men who are currently training with their units, it may be overseas. It might be that the nature of the training given would be a matter in which the designated Minister would have an interest, but he must not be the Minister personally responsible for giving the training. That Minister must be the head of the Service in question.

Mr. H. Hynd

As the proposal at the moment is to call up men for mobile columns and use them in disciplined units under R.A.F. officers, what is the difference in principle between that and what the hon. Gentleman has been saying?

Sir H. Lucas-Tooth

That is exactly the point. Clause 1 (1) gives the designated Minister power to give the training in respect of those men who are specially called up for Civil Defence service. The Amendment would extend that responsibility to the case of all men who are in the Services, wherever they may be.

Mr. Ede

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but it would save time if we could clear this matter up now. Is not this the real effect? As drafted at present, Clause 1 (1) merely allows the training to be given to men during the fortnight for which they are called up, and we understood from what was said by the Home Secretary the other day that they would be called up in each of two successive years for a fortnight, that is, for the part-time service to which the phrase in the Clause alludes.

The object of the Amendment is to enable some of these men to be given two years' full-time training if necessary. That may not be the only effect, but that will be one of the effects of the Amendment. It would enable an extended period of full-time training to be given to such of the men as were selected for it.

Sir H. Lucas-Tooth

The purpose of Clause 1 (1) is to deal with those men who have a part-time liability under the National Service Act and, as drafted, it affects those men only. The Bill is necessary and this is the whole raison d'étre because it would not be possible without the Bill to call up men for the purpose of doing Civil Defence and nothing else. There is already power to give Civil Defence training to men who are serving in the Forces. That power is reaffirmed in this Bill, but there is already that power in existence. Therefore we are now dealing only with this rather narrow class of individuals.

The Amendment would spread the particular scheme for which the Bill is designed to legislate and apply it generally to all members of the Armed Forces. I do not think anyone, in any part of the Committee, really wants to do that. I think we are all agreed that where men are serving their normal two-year period any arrangements for training them should be made through the units in which they are serving. It seems to me that it would be difficult to argue that that is not the proper way to deal with it.

Here we are dealing only with a special and narrow class, and we put the responsibility for providing the training—which will be the whole training these men received when called up under this Bill—on the Home Secretary.

Mr. James Harrison (Nottingham, East)

Could we assume that, for this particular corps, this would be an additional duty as part-time serving National Servicemen? Most probably in the normal course these men would not be called up to the R.A.F., but under the provisions of this Clause they would be called up specifically for Civil Defence training?

Sir H. Lucas-Tooth

The hon. Member said "this Clause," I think he means the subsection. The Clause, of course, deals with both classes of men. There are two classes of people with whom we are concerned generally in this Bill. One is the man who has the part-time liability which remains after he has done his full-time service, and the other is the man who is serving his normal period of two years.

I quite appreciate that the right hon. Member for South Shields has made a point previously with regard to the training of men doing their full-time service. What I am saying is that that point does not arise under subsection (1) of the Bill. Subsection (1) is limited in its effect to men doing part-time service. It is necessary because we could not call them up, without express provision, for the sole purpose of doing Civil Defence training.

The Clause, as drafted, provides that the Home Secretary—or the Minister of Health, if the men are called up for ambulance service—shall be the Minister responsible for training them during that period of part-time service only.

Mr. M. Turner-Samuels (Gloucester)

Do I understand the Joint Under-Secretary to say that it is unnecessary to put in those words "liable to service" because that is already provided for, but that it is necessary to put in: serving their term of part-time service because that is not provided for?

5.15 p.m.

Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne)

I am bound to say that I share the doubts of my hon. Friend as to what actually would be effected by the words proposed in this Amendment. May I say at once that I am in full sympathy with its object? Certainly I think men who are serving their full-time two years' service would be most usefully employed—better employed than now—by being properly equipped to deal with this type of catastrophe, if ever called upon to do so. If that is the purpose of the Amendment, as I understand it to be, I sympathise with it fully. What I do not follow is how it is proposed to achieve that object solely by the words in the Amendment.

The Clause as it stands is simple enough to understand. It gives power to call upon men, during the time when they remain liable for part-time service, to undergo this training. No one, on either side of the Committee, objects to that. What it is sought to do is something more, but the something more which would be effected by this Amendment seems to me to go far beyond not merely the intention of my right hon. and hon. Friends, but also the scope of the Bill altogether.

It seems to me that if this Amendment were carried everyone who was liable under the National Service Acts could be called upon by the designated Minister for this purpose and for training, but there is nothing in the Bill to that effect.

The Deputy-Chairman

I agree that that may be a view of the Amendment, but it certainly would not be in order under the terms of this Bill to discuss people who may be liable to be called up under the military service Acts. That would be out of order.

Mr. Silverman

I am much obliged to you, Sir Rhys. That is precisely the point I am endeavouring to make. That is why I think it most important to clear up what the words actually do mean. That is precisely why I said it seemed to me that if the words mean what on the surface they appear to mean—what my hon. Friend thought they meant and what I think they mean—they would indeed be out of order because they would be outside the scope of the Bill. That is, because the obligation which these men will be called upon to accept under this Bill, as it is proposed to amend it, if it could be done, would be an additional obligation.

There is nothing in this Bill, or in any other Measure, to say that any service the men perform will be in substitution for their liability for military service under the National Service Acts. Therefore, if my hon. Friends had their way what would be achieved would be not what they want: the result of the Amendment—if it were held to be in order and if it were incorporated in the Bill—would be to double the national service of people called up under this Bill.

Instead of two years under the National Service Acts they could—I do not say they would—be called upon to do two years' service under this Measure and still do their military service. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am perfectly certain that is not the intention of my hon. Friends. I may be quite wrong about it and I do not want to be dogmatic, or to appear to lay down the law, but, reading the words as best I can, they seem to me to be capable of bearing that interpretation. If they are capable of bearing that interpretation and that is not what is desired, the Committee would be very ill-advised to accept the Amendment.

Mr. Ede

This Amendment was put down to raise the whole question as to whether part-time training can be regarded as a sufficient training for Civil Defence if it is limited to two periods of 14 days given at an interval of approximately 12 months. That is the liability that is imposed by subsection (1) on men who have completed their whole-time service. The subsection itself makes no provision at all for training them during their whole-time service. I think that so far we are in agreement, and I hope that that agreement accords with the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman).

We suggest that that cannot be regarded as looking on this matter with the seriousness suggested by the tone of the debates on Second Reading and today. I think that it is generally accepted that this matter ought to be regarded seriously. The object of the Amendment was to enable a man liable to full-time service to perform that service, not in addition to his military service, but in substitution for it.

When it is suggested that that can be done under subsection (5), I should have thought that again doubts might arise about the reading of the Bill, because other members of the armed forces of the Crown"— in the long Title obviously distinguishes them from the people who are performing terms of part-time service. The people performing terms of part-time service are one group and the members of the Armed Forces of the Crown are all the others.

Is it held that because that might include those others—the men who are performing whole-time service under the National Service Acts—therefore, for some reason or other, it makes this Amendment one which the Government cannot accept? After all, the hon. Gentleman said that the raison d'étre for this Bill was the need for training these part-time airmen. We wish to discuss this Bill, not on the basis of it being drafted merely to deal with the difficulties of the Under-Secretary of State for Air, but to deal with the problem of Civil Defence; and the liability of men in any Service under any conditions to undergo training in Civil Defence and to take part in it.

I think that it may be seriously contended that men who have spent only two fortnights in training at an interval of 12 months cannot be very efficient people, when regard is paid to the work which they may have to undertake in the event of hostilities. I was a volunteer—in the last century as well as in this—in an infantry regiment. It is true that we had a fortnight's training, but in between we had to put in a certain number of drills and the fortnight's training was really to put into practice, under as near Service conditions as one could get outside actual hostilities, what we had been learning during the intervening period.

I remember that there was one exercise called, "Prepare to receive cavalry," which we did on the concrete floor of a drill hall—one can only express sympathy with any horses which might have had to charge us in such circumstances. But when one went to Brighton, or Aldershot, one could then at any rate go through that movement with a greater sense of reality. On one occasion we actually saw a few cavalry soldiers. The trouble was that while we were prepared to receive them they had no interest in being entertained.

The question is whether one can regard two fortnights as a sufficient period of training to justify the position. If it is felt that the words of the Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend would not raise that issue and that it might land us in the difficulty suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne, I think that the best thing my hon. Friend can do is to withdraw this Amendment and attempt to find, on Report, words which we could ask the House to consider on the narrow issue to which I have just referred.

I am quite sure that it is a serious issue which ought to be discussed, if not by the Committee then by the House, so that we may ascertain the views of the Government. I am quite certain that there are some people called up for military service who would probably be better employed, not merely during their training but during any hostilities in the future, in Civil Defence rather than in one of the Armed Forces.

Mr. Wigg

I understood the position until we heard the reply of the Joint Under-Secretary of State when he explained the purpose of the Bill in terms of the part-time training of these reservists. As I understand it, these men are called up for 14 days in any one year, and while they are called up their discipline is maintained, not under this Bill, but under the Royal Air Force Act—I asked this question a little unnecessarily during the Second Reading debate, and that is so——

Sir H. Lucas-Tooth

With this difference, that the Bill would permit the whole 60 days that is legally possible. The hon. Member said 14 days, but it is 60 days, subject to limitations.

Mr. Wigg

I did not want to anticipate a later Amendment in my name.

I wish now to concentrate on this point, and I hope I shall be in order if I make a brief reference to the debate in another place. There the noble Lord, who was Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, said: This is a legal departure, but I do not think it is a practical departure."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 8th July, 1954; Vol. 188, c. 548.] That is to say, under the National Service Act, it would have been lawful to have called up any soldier or airman or naval reservist and to have given them the kind of training envisaged under this Bill. The difference now would be that whereas the responsibility for the training—for the drawing up of the syllabus and its supervision and the responsibility for rations and accommodation—would be exclusively with the Service in which the man was called up, when this Bill becomes law, the responsibility for discipline and for the attachment, and the circumstances surrounding it, will rest with the Secretary of State for Air.

The responsibility for the training, for the preparation of the syllabus and for the provision of the actual buildings and equipment, will rest with the designated Minister. I understood during the Second Reading debate and from the proceedings in another place that this Bill was drafted in order to clear up a legal doubt, although it does not affect the practical considerations. If the hon. Gentleman would be kind enough to say that I am wrong I shall be obliged, and it may be that it will help other hon. Members.

5.30 p.m

Sir H. Lucas-Tooth

The hon. Gentleman is partly right and partly wrong. The Bill has an effect of a practical and a novel kind, in that it enables men to be called back for part-time service for the purpose of Civil Defence. Under the National Service Act such men could be called back only for military service, using that term in the widest sense.

Subsection (1) enables such men to be called back for the purpose of Civil Defence. Under the law as it stands a man who is serving under the National Service Act can be given training in Civil Defence. That is why this is put in a declaratory form in the Bill. I do not want to anticipate a later Amendment. That is the difference between the two parts of the Bill.

I would say to the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) that I do not think that it will be necessary to wait until Report. I think that it will be possible, on his Amendment, to omit subsection (5), and, on the new Clause which stands in his name, to discuss the question of the training of men during their whole-time service. The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) is right about part-time service but he is not right about whole-time service.

Mr. Wigg

If I am wrong, then the hon. Gentleman's reply is catastrophic. He is saying that an order to do something which is considered Civil Defence, such as to fill up a fire bucket or to learn first aid, would not be lawful.

Brigadier Prior-Palmer

It depends who gives the order.

Mr. Wigg

My right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), with his common sense and instinct about military affairs, said earlier that he knows what happens if a man disobeys an order given by a sergeant major when he draws up a roster.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State is saying that we require a Bill if one calls upon a National Service man to do Civil Defence. I should have thought that when he was called up an order could be given to him to do any of the things which a Regular soldier can be called upon to do. Provided that the command was a lawful one—and I suggest that a command to do Civil Defence would be—and that it was given by a superior officer in the execution of his duty, a breach of it would be an offence un