DEFENCE

§ The Prime Minister (Mr. Winston Churchill)

I beg to move: That this House approves the Statement on Defence, 1953 (Command Paper No. 8768).

§ Mr. Woodrow Wyatt (Birmingham, Aston)

On a point of order. Before we begin the debate this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, is it possible for you to help in this difficulty? I understand that as well as the official speakers from the Front Benches on both sides, it is intended that no fewer than three Privy Councillors on this side of the House, not speaking for the Front Bench, will also try to speak in the debate. If one allows roughly one-and-three-quarter hours for the two opening speeches and one-and-a-quarter hours for the winding-up speeches, that leaves only just over three hours to be divided between the back benchers on both sides.

If each Privy Councillor speaks for an average of half an hour, that means that the whole of the one-and-a-half hours left for back benchers on this side of the House will be consumed by Privy Councillors. While I am second to none in my enthusiasm for the aptness and eloquence of Privy Councillor's speeches, is it an inviolable rule that they must be called, and, if it is, what protection can you offer to back benchers who do not happen to be Privy Councillors?

§ Mr. James Hudson (Ealing, North)

Further to that point of order. In considering the question of Privy Councillors speaking, Mr. Speaker, would you take into account the necessity of reducing the time for former Parliamentary Secretaries?

§ Mr. Speaker

There is, of course, no inviolable rule. It is entirely within the discretion of the Chair whether Privy Councillors should be called, but it is an old custom, which has persisted for a long time, to call them. All I can tell the hon. Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt) is that he need not necessarily take the most pessimistic view and assume that every Privy Councillor will make a speech of half an hour's duration.

§ The Prime Minister

I am afraid that I cannot guarantee to conform to the 568 shorter limits you mentioned, Mr. Speaker, for I feel that the House must approach this debate in its proper setting and it is necessary for this purpose that I should recapitulate—I can do no more —the salient features of our post-war story. In the first years of peace, we reduced our Forces from the dizzy heights of war-time to a little over 700,000 men, and our military expenditure to under £700 million. In 1946 the Labour Government, with our full support, decided that we must continue National Service in peace-time. There was some hesitation originally as to the proper period of whole-time service, but by 1st January, 1949, when the Act came into operation, it had been fixed at 18 months.

In the early summer of 1948 came the coup d'etat in Czechoslovakia, which made a profound impression on everyone's mind, and was followed by the attempted blockade of Berlin. This was broken by the airlift. There was great international tension. No major re-equipment programme was, however, put in hand, and we continued, to some extent, to live on our stocks; but in the summer of 1950 the wanton, no doubt, inspired, act of aggression by the North Koreans on South Korea occurred. As a result, under the authority of the United Nations organisation, most of the countries in the free world felt that they should shoulder the burden both of a major rearmament programme and the maintenance of much larger forces.

The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, in January, 1951, who had already increased the period of National Service to two years, announced the final plans of the late Government, which are now conveniently referred to as the £4,700 million three years' programme. This was a bold and a necessary act, and, to a great extent, still dominates our domestic position. Even if events have proved that it was over-optimistic—hastily thought out—that does not detract from the statesmanship and courage of the Measure.

We on this side of the House gave our prompt and unwearying support to the policy as a whole, even at a time of sharp political disagreement on minor matters. It was, of course, hoped in many quarters that, as a result of a three years' effort in many countries, above all in the United States, the forces of the free world, and 569 among them our own, could be built up and re-equipped and that, thereafter, there would be a substantial drop in defence expenditure with consequential relief to our economy now so grievously overweighted by taxation.

The re-armament programme, like all others of its kind, was slow in getting into its stride. At this time last year it was concluded that by the end of the financial year, 1952, expenditure would have risen very steeply. It was in the light of the original delay and of the pent up and cumulative rise in the cost of the programme in its second year that we decided that it must be rolled forward and spread over at least a fourth year. We have now had the opportunity of beginning a more thorough review of the whole programme, both in strategic thought and in the light of our financial position. This was not possible, I think, to the same degree at an earlier period either in our tenure or that of those who preceded us.

What is called the cold war—which is not a legal term—continues. What we are faced with is not a violent jerk, but a prolonged pull. We must create forces which can play a real part as a deterrent against aggression and also can afford some measure of defence should war come.

I regret that we were not able to accept the Opposition's proposal to substitute the words "takes note of" for the word "approves" in the Motion which we are putting to the House. The circumstances differ in many respects from those of March, 1950. I shall not take up time in a debate when so many important subjects can be raised by arguing this matter of procedure in detail, although I have looked it all up. The reason for our decision is that there is today one outstanding point of principle at stake on which the Government are bound to make their position clear to our allies and others by vote as well as by words.

The maintenance of the system of two years' National Service is, according to our judgment, vital to the security of our country and to the discharge of our obligations overseas. It is vital to our influence in the struggle of the United Nations to avert a general war and to the 570 practical efficiency of our fighting Services, particularly the Army and the Air. I shall deal with some of these aspects in the course of my remarks. I wish to say now that we should regard a decision to reduce the two-year period at this critical but formative, grave but not unhopeful moment as a mistake and as a disaster of the first order. The brute fact that we had not the courage—we the Government—to express our convictions at this juncture would, in our opinion, be an act unworthy of the dignity of the Parliament we serve which could in no way be compensated for by an appearance of unity where, perhaps, it does not exist.

I do not quarrel with the terms of the Amendment which the Opposition have placed on the Order Paper. The first part recognises very clearly the policy of the Government and in no way evades responsibility for the decision of our predecessors to re-arm on the largest scale and at the utmost speed possible. About the terms and obligations of National Service we are following their example, so far as the period for which we are now seeking powers is concerned. The original Act covered five years and also provided for its extension, if necessary, by Order in Council. We are availing ourselves of this in proposing to extend its operation for another five years. The House will be asked later this year to pronounce a positive affirmation of this period.

That does not mean that the House is asked to commit itself to a prolongation of the two-year service during the whole of a five-year period. That must depend on the course of events, which, at the present moment, give no ground for expecting an early reduction. On the contrary, for the reasons I have mentioned, and to some of which I shall recur, this is a testing time for the free world, and any sign of weakening purpose would undermine what good has already been done by both parties at heavy cost to everyone. But the measures which we should in due course take in no way prevent the Government, this or any other, from reducing the two-year period at any time if they feel it can safely be done. And they can reduce it without legislation. It cannot be increased without legislation, but it can be reduced by an Order in Council at any moment this 571 may be thought fitting by any Ministry which may bear the responsibility.

Where, then, is there the need for an annual affirmative Resolution? The procedure of the House provides ample and recurring opportunities of challenging the Government of the day upon this or any other clear-cut issue, and of bringing it to the test of debate and of Division. There is the debate on the Address; there are all the facilities which the House uses for debate and vote upon any Motion it may wish to discuss; there is the annual debate on defence; there are the Services' Estimates; and various other occasions. On any one of these the matter could be raised, threshed out, a Division could be taken, whether to terminate the two-year system or produce, in the words of the Opposition Amendment, an "affirmative Resolution" in its favour. The issue remains continually in the hands of the House.

If we were to extend the period only year by year, as suggested, we believe that it would discourage our friends abroad and might well encourage the other ones. Above all, there would be uncertainty—uncertainty when so many aspects of daily life are affected—the daily life of great numbers of people is affected. Every year rumours, and the agitations following upon them, would spread: "There is going to be a big reduction." This would affect everyone who thought he was likely to be called up. Still more, it would make it difficult for the Service Departments to plan on a coherent and thrifty basis. For us at this stage—responsible Ministers—to shrink from definite approval of the two-year system would spread uncertainty throughout the Services, and would be, in our opinion, at the present time in no way justified by the international position. We must, therefore, persist in asking for the word "approves."

If I may make a brief diversion, I have thought for several years that it would be greatly to the advantage of France as well as ourselves to have a two-year period of military service. This would enable them to revive the strength of the French army in Europe and render possible their valiant efforts to maintain their Empire. When I mentioned this to French statesmen, while I was a private person, some months ago, they contended 572 that they drew from their population a much larger proportion of men for service in the armed forces than we did, and that our exemptions for one reason or another made a selective cut in our intake which profoundly reduced our defensive effort. This is, in fact, not so. The only permanent deferments we make are for miners and seamen and certain agricultural labourers.

§ Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

And clergymen.

§ The Prime Minister

In a typical age-group these amount to not more than 8 per cent. of the total numbers registered for military service. About 30 per cent. more are deferred after registration in order to complete apprenticeships or other training, but these are called to the Colours three or four years later, when their training is finished, and, it may be, their capacity to render service greatly improved.

I did not convince my French friends two years ago, nor did the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) when he said, just about a year ago, how strongly he had urged the French and the Benelux countries to adopt the two-year system. But there is no doubt in my mind that at the present time two years' service would produce for France—I hope that they will not mind my trespassing on their own affairs, but we have worked together for so many years that I think I may—as it does for Britain, much more efficient and convenient Forces to meet home and overseas commitments.

Mr. Speaker, let us envisage—an unpleasant and overworked word which here, Sir, might find, I think, its proper place—the practical and physical effects of a reduction from 24 to 18 months. We estimate that on 1st April the active strength of our Forces will be about 880,000, of which about 310,000 will be National Service men. A reduction in the length of National Service by six months would mean that the National Service element in the Forces would be reduced by about 75,000. But this is the least part of the consequences.

The increase in the length of National Service has stimulated the new short-service Regular engagements introduced so advisedly in 1950 by the Air Ministry and in 1951 by the War Office. This 573 is a very remarkable development. During 1952, nearly 70,000 men—66,880 men to be exact—who would have been called up for National Service or who had actually commenced such service volunteered for the new three or four year short Regular engagement. The value of this is enormous. We get well-trained soldiers. We get a supply of non-commissioned and commissioned officers. We get strong cadres, frameworks, which make all the difference, or a great deal of difference, to whether troops fight well or badly should war come.

At the present time, the total Regular strength is about 540,000 men compared with 420,000 three years ago. I am talking of the Army. If the period of National Service were reduced we could not hope to continue to receive the improved numbers of volunteers for the Regular Army which we do at the present time. Over a period of three or four years, the total injury to the character and quality of our Forces, apart from numbers, would really be measureless. It astonishes me that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington does not understand what was the best thing he ever did. I hope he will, and try to distinguish it from the worst thing he might possibly do.

Let me emphasise the effect on the Forces of cutting six months from the period of National Service. It is during the last six months of his service that a man becomes a well-trained soldier. Very likely he is an n.c.o. or has gained a commission. I am told that a reduction from 24 to 18 months would strike from the Army over 10,000 corporals and lance-corporals and about 1,800 young officers who have come up from the ranks. Perhaps we may call them all the flower of our military youth. This ill-timed and ill-aimed stroke would not reduce the intake of the National Service men nor the number needing to be trained. There would be no saving in training overheads. The total number in the Army would be less. The proportion in the training establishments would be larger, and the general result undoubtedly inferior.

But look at the effects of such a change upon our overseas obligations at the present time, when all our divisions are 574 abroad, spread about the world, many engaged in some form of warfare. To cut six months off National Service would reduce the period which National Service men could spend in Korea from 11 months to five, in Malaya, from 16 months to 10, and in the Middle East, from 19 months to 13. Thus, if we are to continue to discharge our present commitments—so far accepted by all parties and not directly relevant to our debate today—the use of National Service men in the most distant theatres would simply mean more movement and less result. Many thousands more men would be in the pipeline, doing no good to themselves or anybody else at either end in the meanwhile.

This waste of manpower would require the more extensive use of Regulars in the more distant theatres. This would have a deterrent effect on the voluntary extensions of service in the Regular Army, which I explained a few minutes ago, and which the party opposite have agreed and which has been so highly advantageous. The French are suffering from this acutely, but have not yet found a remedy.

I have dealt with the consequences to the British Army. The effect on the Royal Air Force would, in general, be very similar. However, I am strongly of the opinion that the members of non-flying personnel in the Royal Air Force must be the subject of continued scrutiny with a view to any saving which will not detract from efficiency

Another important feature in the White Paper is the addition of five years on the Reserve of the commitments of National Service men under the post-war conscription Acts of the late Government. This is indispensable if we are to have our vitaily necessary Reserve kept at an adequate strength. Otherwise, the Z and G Reserve would slowly fade away. They are actually fading away.

Neither the new reservists who will already have completed their two years' service and their three-and-a-half years in the Territorial and other Forces, nor the Z and G Reservists who fought in the late war will be required to discharge any commitments except in periods of the gravest war emergency. They will have to let their Service Department know where they are and what they are doing in civil life, which is most important to any general mobilisation, but they will not be required for training. 575 Not to take the step which we are now proposing would mean either the total lack of a Reserve or the imposition of further sacrifices upon the Z men. This would be most unfair. So far from adding to our claims upon the Z and G Reservists, we are now proposing to give them marked relief. Their loyal response to their recall by the late Government for refresher training in 1951 and by us in 1952 was most helpful to the country. We now have the good news for them that in the absence of any sudden darkening of the world scene we do not propose to call up any more for refresher training, and secondly, that after 45 we make no further call upon them.

When I came into office, 16 months ago, I was startled and concerned with the condition of home defence, especially against large-scale attacks by paratroops. I felt naked as I had not felt at any time in the recent war. We had moved, or it had been decided to move, all our divisions out of the island. I did not cancel these movements, and, therefore, I accept inherited responsibility. However, we took important measures. There were 250,000 men in uniform here who, at that time, were entirely absorbed in training or administrative duties of one kind or another. As I explained to the House, I considered it my first duty as Minister of Defence, as I then was, to impart a combative value to this large body of proud and capable youths and men.

Continuous progress has been made. Weapons and ammunition were issued. Motor cars were made available. Every man in uniform was made to feel that he had to fight to the death for the sake of his native land and the protection of his fellow-countrymen. Over 450 mobile columns have been formed, and plans have been made, and exercises conducted, at very small expense comparatively, to enable these columns to concentrate rapidly on any point where we should be subjected to an air descent.

Still, the fact remains that we have not got a single combatant division in this country. This is another aspect of what I said just now: our whole formed or regularly organised Army is abroad. This shows how great is the need to improve our fighting strength at home. No other country is voluntarily running the 576 risks to which we have subjected ourselves. They are, however, I think, appreciably diminished by the measures we have taken.

There is another aspect which may be borne in mind, though I should be shy of dwelling too much upon it. The farther east, speaking of the European scene, the effective front line is drawn in Western Europe, the greater is our protection not only from paratroop attack but also from air bombing with all its measureless features, especially in the early days of a conflict.

However, it seems to me at the moment that one of the really vital processes of national survival is the development and expansion of the Home Guard. So far its growth has not been in any way adequate to our needs or our dangers. The Home Guard is an indispensable aid to the Territorial Army, because it helps in the defence of airfields and takes over vulnerable points and so forth in the hour of peril. Until an adequate Home Guard is in being and on a far stronger scale than we have so far attained, the Territorial Army, instead of preparing for rapid mobilisation, would be largely scattered over the country carrying out local defence.

The men who have joined the Home Guard are of first-class quality; but we need many more of them. There are 9,000 officers, but only 20,000 men who have as yet enrolled. This is not a quarter of what we need. Any man who is a Z reservist and under 45, although he has a Reserve liability, should write to the War Office. There are many reservists whose present occupation suggests that they would not be called up in war-time, but they might volunteer and play their part in the defence of hearth and home around where they are working and carrying out probably very skilled and specialised functions.

I make my appeal to all parties in the House to help in every way in encouraging enlistment in the Home Guard, not as a measure of panic or alarm but as a bringing into play of a new, effective and necessary element in our system of home defence.

I must now warn the House that I am going to make an unusual departure. I am going to make a Latin quotation. It is one which I hope will not offend the detachment of the old school tie and will 577 not baffle or be taken as a slight upon the new spelling brigade. Perhaps I ought to say the "new spelling squad." because it is an easier word. The quotation is, "Arma virumque cano," which, for the benefit of our Winchester friends, I may translate as "Arms and the men I sing." That generally describes my theme.

§ Mr. Hugh Gaitskell (Leeds, South)

Should it not be "man," the singular instead of the plural?

§ The Prime Minister

Little did I expect that I should receive assistance on a classical matter from such a quarter. I am using the word "man" in a collective form which, I think, puts me right in grammar.

Let me now come to arms, about which I believe there is no classical dispute. Here let me again embark on some generalisations. Ever since we took office, the Government have been pursuing the twin but divergent objectives of financial solvency and military security. Solvency is valueless without security, and security is impossible to achieve without solvency. Whichever way one turns, one does not like the look of it. On the other hand, by the adjustments that we have made and the spreading out which was inevitable, we have tried to bring our military expenditure within the limits of what we can afford. I say "tried" because, even after the adjustments have been made, it can be argued that we are still devoting a disproportionately large slice of the nation's economic effort to defence production.

§ Mr. Harold Davies (Leek)

Hear, hear.

§ The Prime Minister

We feel that very much indeed. Even in the absence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it does not pass from our minds. But I would face criticism on that score rather than lay ourselves open to the charge of not bearing our full share with our allies or, indeed, of failing to set an example to Europe in the defence of the free world. No one with knowledge of the facts of our economic situation could challenge our claim that the effort we are making on defence is the absolute maximum of which we are capable, and that any further substantial diversion of our resources from civil to military production 578 would gravely imperil our economic foundations and, with them, our ability to continue with the rearmament programme. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear hear."] There are a frightful lot of things we are all agreed about.

Over and above our own rearmament, we are developing a substantial export trade in arms to other countries. Nearly all of this is in the form of what are called "off-shore" purchases by the United States for N.A.T.O. or purchases by the Commonwealth and Western European countries. Let me emphasise that these exports of arms are over and above not what we want, but the maximum expenditure which we are financially able to afford for the re-equipment of our own Forces. We should like to rearm some of our own formations more rapidly, but we do not withhold modern weapons from our own troops in order to sell them to other countries. In so far as there is retardation apart from technical delays, it is because we cannot afford to spend more on ourselves. This is a serious and unpleasant fact which I do not hesitate to state to the House.

There are, of course, on the other hand, solid compensating advantages even in the military sphere. The value of these exports adds not only to our balance of payments, but also to our military strength. In these times of rapid scientific progress when new and improved weapons are being constantly evolved, one of the most vital factors in the nation's preparedness for war is the possession of an adequate and flexible armament industry capable above all of speeding expansion.

By making arms for others in addition to those we make for ourselves, we are enabled to build up a war potential substantially greater than we could otherwise achieve. In the event of hostilities the existence of this extra war production capacity, fully equipped with machine tools and manned up with skilled and experienced labour, would provide us with an important armament reserve of inestimable value. In short, the sale of arms to other countries has three most valuable compensations. It increases our own war potential; it increases our export earnings; and seven-eighths of it, which goes to the Commonwealth and Europe 579 adds to the military strength of the free world as a whole.

There is one field in our export of arms which should be more clearly illuminated this afternoon. I mean the furnishing of jet aircraft to Egypt, to the other Arab States and to Israel. All this is on a very small scale, and so far as it has been carried out it fulfils contracts entered into in the time of our predecessors when, no doubt, circumstances were somewhat different. Nevertheless, we must not forget that there was a war four years ago between Israel and the four Arab States, including Egypt if that is the correct description, and that a truce has been established on a somewhat precarious basis but that no peace has been made. We must, therefore, be very careful, even on the small scale on which we are supplying aircraft, not to alter in any appreciable way the balance between the sides. I can assure the House that this principle will be observed.

About the export of jet aircraft to Egypt, 43 were sent in the time of our predecessors and we have agreed while the negotiations about the future are in progress not to interrupt the supply. Four more have gone. I can assure the House that this addition to Egyptian air power makes no difference to our overwhelming air superiority in those regions. I wanted to deal with this matter this afternoon although it is a little outside the scope of the White Paper, but I felt that the House ought to understand very clearly the position which Her Majesty's Government takes up.

As a result of the Government's strategic review, the types and quantities of weapons and ammunition to be produced have been more precisely related to the kind of war or wars which we might have to fight in various parts of the world. This has enabled us to make considerable economies in many directions. To some extent these economies have reduced our overall defence expenditure and eased the strain upon the metal-using industries to which we look for the needed expansion in our export trade. To some extent, also, these economies have made it possible, while keeping within the limits of what we can afford, to re-direct money saved to the production of other more urgent or vital items of defence equipment.

580 The period of gestation required for the production of a complicated, modern weapon, as we all know, is a fairly long one. Even, therefore, in the case of weapons and aircraft already in production, the results of changes which we have decided upon do not in most cases affect the pattern of deliveries for about 12 months. In the case of weapons still in the development stage, the cycle is, of course, much longer. I can assure the House that within these limits of our economical and technical resources our material rearmament is making good headway.

As I stated a year ago, the production programme when we took over was a long way behind the forecasts of the late Government, whose estimates made in haste or, shall I say, in emergency consultations—I do not wish to be controversial—were necessarily, in many cases, unrealistic. I do not blame them for that. They tried their best. Defence production can be divided into three stages. The first stage is of research and development. Over most of this field work is proceeding well and results are extremely encouraging. The third and last stage is what is called flow production. In older days at the Ministry of Munitions it used to be called mass production, but flow production is probably the more accurate term. The flow production of weapons means those weapons whose design has been more or less finalised. The rate of deliveries of aircraft and equipment of this class is in most cases satisfactory and up to expectations.

Between the stage of development and the stage of flow production there is an intermediate stage in which, in order to save time, production has to be started notwithstanding the fact that the design is not fully settled. During this stage modifications in design have to be introduced both in the tooling-up period and even later in the period when production has already started. With the growing rapidity of new inventions and in consequence of the increasing rapidity of obsolescence, the practice of going into production off the drawing board, which still remains a risk, is becoming almost a normal procedure.

The time taken to cure defects which reveal themselves in the tests and trials of prototype aircraft and specialised military equipment varies greatly from case to case. It is not, therefore, 581 possible to generalise about the progress in this intermediate stage. I can assure the House that we will seek tirelessly the correct solution of this ever-varying problem, and that we are very much aware of the importance, both of designing new weapons and of getting them as rapidly as possible into the hands of the troops. It is an issue which changes from month to month and it is not a new one. It has always been a question when we should go on producing in the regular way and when we should turn to experiment with something new. Never has this process been so rapid, so tense, giving such opportunities for making mistakes, as it is at the present time.

I am grateful to the House for the attention with which it has listened to me. I have confined my speech almost entirely to the limits of the White Paper and have not sought to sail out on to the sullen and unpredictable oceans of human destiny on which this modest document floats. The policy we are pursuing may claim, and ought, I think, to command, the loyal and friendly support of all parties, for all are deeply and gravely committed on all the broad principles involved. The more united is the decision of the House the better will it be for our country, provided that we are not led or lured away from plain, clear-cut expressions of our duty. That is the reason why I have moved the Motion.

§ Mr. C. R. Attlee (Walthamstow, West)

I beg to move to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof: recognises the need for a defence programme which is adequate both for our own security and to enable us to play our part in the defence of the free world, and is also compatible with national solvency; takes note of Command Paper No. 8768, but considers that the period of national service should be subject to an annual affirmative Resolution by this House in order that any change in our commitments, the contributions of our allies and any new developments may be taken into account. The Prime Minister dealt with the subject matter of this Amendment at the beginning of his speech and then went on to other matters. I shall reverse that order in my remarks.

In the first place, I would respond to the Prime Minister's generosity in giving us a Latin quotation. The Latin quotation that occurred to me in the later stages 582 of his speech was "locus penitentiae," a place for repentance, because I had such a lively recollection of the debates we had when we sold armaments abroad. I remembered so well putting forward just the right hon. Gentleman's arguments today about the need for keeping up our potential and the need for assisting our allies, and even glancing at the balance of payments.

I had such a lively recollection of the fierce attack of the right hon. Gentleman. I can recall in detail speaking of the difficulties of production—the first stage, the second stage, and the third stage when we got on to the flow—and the criticisms levelled by the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends on that matter. Therefore, I welcome very much this change of heart that has come with fuller knowledge and a change of location by the right hon. Gentleman.

One thing disappointed me in the right hon. Gentleman's speech. I thought that we might have had a broader survey of the world position. No one is better qualified than he on a matter of that kind. I have heard him do it before. I notice that in the White Paper there is not much said about N.A.T.O. or about what is the effective gathering of the forces for the defence of the Western world. There is a great deal about the infrastructure and about command. It was almost all about harness and nothing about horses. We are, as the whole House recognises, making very great sacrifices in our contribution to Western defence and we should all like to have heard something from the right hon. Gentleman of how he thinks Western defence is being built up.

In past debates he has told us of the menace that may come from the East and of the need for erecting a substantial dam against any possible danger of flood from that direction. To the best of my knowledge that dam is still very weak and very thin. I think the right hon. Gentleman has acknowledged that in our time we did our full amount of fulfilling our obligations. We had effective divisions overseas in Germany. There are also the American divisions; but the rest of the effort of Europe is still very thin.

The right hon. Gentleman said that he had talked to our French colleagues about National Service and the length of service. I understand that the French 583 forces have been strengthened, but I think he will agree that those forces are not so strong and battleworthy as are the forces that we have in the field.

I was a little disturbed that, instead of dealing with N.A.T.O., the right hon. Gentleman devoted a considerable amount of his time to the home defence of these islands. Although he said, quite rightly, how vital it was that our lines of defence should be drawn as far East as possible—that is vitally necessary for us—it is vitally necessary also for the people of Holland, Belgium and France. It will not be very inspiring for them to learn that we are considering the defence of these islands and have not said very much about the defence of the rest of Western Europe.

I hope that, in the reply, we may have something more by way of estimating what are the forces of N.A.T.O. today. What are the real forces of the Atlantic Community? That is of vital importance. It is far more important that there should be a strong defence against any possible attack rather than special provisions which assume that that attack is going to be successful and come right up to our shores. That is why I confess that I am disappointed that the right hon. Gentleman did not give us a broader survey.

That leads me, quite naturally, to the consideration of the substance of our Amendment. I do not wish to speak at length, because many people want to take part in the debate. We have put down the Amendment because we consider that National Service is a matter which the House should keep in constant review. I am well aware that we can raise a debate on this and other matters on a defence White Paper. We can raise this matter on the Service Estimates. As the right hon. Gentleman said, we could raise it on the Queen's Speech, but this is a specific point which we should like to be discussed by this House on an affirmative Resolution by the Government.

Admittedly, we are bearing in this National Service a heavier burden than most other countries. I think that there is a comparable burden of length of service by Turkey, Greece, Palestine and America. There is not a comparable burden on the rest of our continental friends or on the Commonwealth. It was recognised when we introduced the two 584 years' service that it was making an extremely heavy demand on the youth of this country, on the industry of this country and on the resources of this country.

Therefore, we are asking not for an immediate reduction but for a review. I was a little surprised that the Prime Minister should have said there were numerous opportunities on which we could raise this matter but that, if we raised it on a specific point like this, it would cause distrust, alarm and despondency among our allies. I cannot see why that should be so. I cannot see why, because we raise it on an affirmative Resolution, it should cause more alarm than on an Amendment to the Address.

I want to look at the matter of National Service, because it is one to be kept under review and I shall refer for a moment or two to its history. The Government of which I was a member introduced National Service, a thing unprecedented in peace-time, because of the condition of the world as we found it, and also because of the change that had taken place in the development of military operations. Before the war there had been a system by which we depended on a Territorial Army which, confessedly, would take a long time before it could be put into the field.

Our Service advisers told us that the essential thing was that our reserves should consist of fully trained men in order to shorten that period. Originally, when National Service was introduced, the main object was the creation of a trained Reserve by pouring into the Territorial cadres the product of the National Service Acts. I think that this White Paper shows the success of that process in that for a number of years we have been depending on our reserves of men who took part in the war.

There is necessarily a decreasing value of that asset as their ages increase and as they go out of the Service. They have done well in an emergency, but they were obviously a diminishing force. That was originally the intention of National Service. Why did it change? It changed because of a deterioration in the world situation, with the consequent need for employing National Service men overseas. That was due to the fact that we had not a sufficiently large Regular component.

As a matter of fact, recruiting, after the war, was fully up to, and indeed above, 585 the standard of ordinary Regular recruitment before the wars. That is remarkable because recruitment for the Armed Forces is always difficult in a period immediately following a great war. We found it so after the First World War and we found it so after the Second World War. It is perfectly natural. Therefore, we have not that Regular component. Today we have a much greater Regular component and I welcome it very much. That is partly due to the process of time, it is partly due to improved conditions, it is partly due to the three years' service.

The conception we had always was that the National Service element should be used for building up reserves, but for the actual work of policing the British Commonwealth and Empire and providing a central mobile force for use in emergencies, we should depend on the Regular Forces just as we did in former days. It was because we had not that Regular component that we had to use the National Service men. Indeed, I can remember hon. and gallant Gentlemen on the other side of the House proposing that we should reduce National Service to only a few months and, by offering much higher pay, and so forth, manage to build up sufficient Regular Forces to fulfil our overseas obligations.

§ The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Antony Head)

Before 1950.

§ Mr. Attlee

I quite agree. That was the conception.

§ The Prime Minister

It may have been put forward and discussed, but it was never the official policy of the Conservative Party.

§ Mr. Attlee

I was talking of hon. and gallant Members with great fighting experience, like the Secretary of State for War.

§ Mr. Head

I can explain to the right hon. Gentleman. All those remarks were made in an utterly different climate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It was before 1950, when our overseas commitments were about half what they are now.

§ Mr. Attlee

I know, but it indicated their conception of the kind of force needed and the kind of function that the National Service men should perform. The position changed because of world 586 conditions. We cannot at present say that the international climate has changed much for the better. There are many more obscurities, but it is not much better. I do not believe, therefore, that for the present we can do without the National Service Act, but it means that we have to study very carefully what should be the period of National Service, and what that period should be depends on a number of conditions.

First, it depends on the extent of Regular recruitment. It Regular recruitment is adequate to provide for commitments then we can shorten the period of National Service because the main object is to establish reserves. Next, it depends on the level of armaments throughout the world. That is an international matter and we all wish that we could see the general level of armaments throughout the world reduced. It is not the fault of the Government of this country that progress in that respect has not been made. It also depends upon two other factors. One is our commitments, and the other is some technical considerations.

We have 11 divisions or rather more overseas. The Prime Minister was at one time apt to criticise us because our Forces were widely extended. That was due to the fact that there was a cold war, with pressure everywhere, but it has been a source of great anxiety that we should be so spread out that we did not have a quick reserve ready to move off at any moment here at home.

I think that our commitments want constant review. I am not suggesting that at the moment we could cut them all down. We have to do our part in Korea. We have to do our part in Western defence. We have certain places where we must keep our troops, but from time to time those commitments want to be reviewed. It may be that in course of time, and I hope so, the business of cleaning up Malaya will be accelerated—we all want that—and we should be able to release our troops from there. Negotiations are proceeding at present with Egypt, which may or may not result in the release of troops from Egypt.

I think everyone would agree that it would be desirable if we could reduce our overseas commitments, because they are too heavy today. Never before in our history in peace-time have we had 587 so many divisions overseas. That must be a matter of constant anxiety to the Government and of constant review; and it depends on the conditions and also to some extent on what our allies are doing in these various fields. I think that most people in this country would say that we are bearing a disproportionate burden of keeping the peace of the world.

It would be very desirable if we could get more troops at home, because it would mean a lessening of the pressure on manpower. There is, first, the wastage in the pipeline. The further overseas that we have our troops, the greater amount of their time of service is taken in going backwards and forwards in reliefs and in leaves. Secondly, where troops are posted abroad, a much bigger tail is needed.

I know that the right hon. Gentleman thinks as I do and has tried often at cutting down the tail. The further away from here, the bigger the tail and the auxiliaries. If troops are stationed, so to speak, in a factory area, we can cut down a good deal of R.E.M.E. and all the rest. That is another reason, apart from the point of view that it is more satisfactory in a far-flung Commonwealth and Empire like ours to have our troops at home, whence they can be dispatched to where trouble may arise, than to have them scattered right throughout the world, which shows that we want to look constantly at our commitments.

I am aware of the difficulty, but that is a matter that wants to be reviewed year after year. I do not need to tell the Prime Minister, using the word with a small "c," that the military mind is apt to be conservative. The right hon. Gentleman will recall how at one time in our military history we kept garrisons all over the place where they were not wanted in the slightest. Those garrisons had to be withdrawn. The right hon. Gentleman will remember the same thing with the concentration of the Fleet by Admiral Fisher. From time to time we need to review a number of these things, and I would say that there are a great number of them now.

§ The Prime Minister

I am not in disagreement, but the Cardwell system was to have the same number abroad as there were at home; they played into each 588 other's hands and it lasted 50 years or more. Now, unhappily, nearly all the battalions are abroad at once.

§ Mr. Attlee

There was particularly the Army in India which was on the Cardwell system, but I quite agree on the general principle that we do not have enough at home.

Then there is the question of the use of manpower. In our time we have seen an enormous increase in the offensive power of the fighting men, which, broadly speaking, means that the volume of fire which used to be produced by 10 or 20 men is produced today by a very few men. The trouble is that very often an increase in the tail always follows from a reduction in the number of people actually fighting, because of the large numbers of people to serve these difficult, complicated and expensive weapons.

Here, again, a constant watch is necessary, because the numbers in any particular formation tend to become sanctified by the years and older people are horrified that any particular unit should fall below what it used to be. With the changes in weapons—and as the right hon. Gentleman said, there are many changes in weapons today—we want constantly to see whether we cannot reduce the number of men in the fighting units. Therefore, I say that all these matters should be taken into review by the Government, and I think it is right that there should be an opportunity every year in which the onus will be on the Government to show that two years' service is necessary.

I am not prejudging as to whether next year the period should be two years, 21 months or 18 months. What I am saying is that there is always a danger, once a term is fixed like this, that the Services will say that they must have it. I have the greatest admiration for the heads of the fighting Services, but we all know that they all want more than we can give them. I do not blame them in the least. We have to hold the balance, just as the right hon. Gentleman said, in very much the same words as I have very often said before, that we have to hold the balance between defence and economics. The soldier, unless he is a very exceptional and balanced educated person, will, naturally, always put defence far beyond economics. I claim, therefore, that there is every case for a review in this matter. 589 I say that the onus should be on the Government, because we must recognise that this is a very heavy burden on this country.

I am not so much taking it as the burden on the individuals, but it means that at a time when people are getting into trade, business, professions, and so forth, they are taken away for two years, which is a very long time. In some cases it means the deprivation from the economic life of the country of a very large number of working hours. Therefore, we put forward this proposal, which, we think, is sound from the point of view of democratic practice, that it is good that the Government should come before the House.

In the figures given by the Prime Minister, there is not quite as much in it as one would have thought. The increased Regular content is coming very largely from the people who would have been doing National Service, but that increase in the Regulars almost makes up for the reduction which the right hon. Gentleman said would ensue from the cutting down of the Service. It is a fairly narrow thing today.

As I say, ultimately, the major matter of decision is the question of commitments. If we can reduce our commitments overseas—if those commitments can be carried out by the Regulars—then the main reason for the two years goes, because the effective reason for the two years was the need for supplying men for the actual duties in the field, occupation and the rest.

§ Captain Charles Waterhouse (Leicester, South-East)

I wish to preface my few remarks this afternoon by congratulating the Government and the Minister of Defence on the general form of the White Paper. I think my right hon. Friend has now got it about the right length compared with 1951, when the plan was just starting to operate and brevity was rather too emphasised. In 1952 a certain form was arrived at and now that same form has been held, and, I think, held with advantage.

I wish to deal with two quite different aspects of this subject. First, I want to follow a line with which the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition 590 dealt—the balance between what we can afford and what we should like—and then to deal with Forces in the Middle East. First, on the question of what we can afford and what we should like, the Leader of the Opposition used the apt phrase that we must ever hold the balance between defence and economics. That is obviously true. It is quite clear, I think, from the general feeling of the House that few on any side wish to grudge any money which must be spent on security. It is equally true that every one of us, on every side, is anxious to make certain that no money is wasted on armaments which is so sorely needed in other directions.

What precisely do we mean by waste? I do not for one second suppose that any of the Services is going to spend money uselessly, but can we really afford all the various directions in which we have decided these vast expenditures? Take first the new medium bomber. I do not believe that a figure has ever been given for its price, but I understand that it is to cost something like £300,000. If one takes £1,000 as being the product of one man for one year, that means that every one of these bombers is to take 300 men one year to construct. Can we really afford machines of that magnitude if we are fighting a war? A thousand bombers are not a very great number, but can we in time of war set aside 300,000 men to produce one particular type of bomber? Is it necessary that we should have such an elaborate machine as that?

Another example is the Centurion tank. I think that figures have been published, and I believe that a fully-equipped Centurion tank will cost about £75,000. How many such machines can we afford? How many such machines do we want? Are we quite certain that we need machines of such a complicated type at all? I believe the machine will weigh about 50 tons. There is scarcely a bridge in the world which will take it, very few roads which will take it and the complications of the machine are such that there are very few men who can work it. It is not only the complication of the machine in the making which we have to consider, but also the training of men to run such machines and to keep them running when once they are supplied to the Army.

The same sort of criticism, in a much less degree, might be levelled at vehicles. 591 Has any real effort been made to standardise vehicles over a very wide field? I am told that now there is some standardisation, but I am amazed to hear that standardisation is being based on the Rolls-Royce. Is that really true? If it is true, are we wise in concentrating on such an expensive machine? Is it not possible to get a machine which would be perfectly adequate for our purpose, which has neither the intricacies nor the initial cost of a Rolls-Royce engine?

There are two other minor points about which I want to ask information. Whenever one goes into Government or Departmental expenditure one always gets a most remarkable figure for travelling, and in this case for movements. In this White Paper there is a figure of £35 million for Army movements. With 11¼ divisions, £35 million for movement means £3 million per division or, if divided up into 440,000 or 450,000 men, it works out at £79 8s. per soldier per year for movement alone.

I am told that it costs about £75 to send a man from here to the Far East. If, therefore, every soldier we have in the Far East went out there every year the bill would be about £7 million. Of course they are not all moved each year, so what happens to the rest of this vast sum of £35 million? There is an average of £79 8s. per man for movements. I believe that there is a point which might well be investigated by my right hon. Friends.

Another point which is an obvious one but which may be worthy of investigation is that it costs £103 to feed a soldier but costs only £73 to feed an airman. According to Mr. Rowntree it ought to cost 12s. 6½d. to feed a healthy man at work. That was in 1951. Making all allowance for certain increases in prices and allowance for what you will—that the soldier is a more robust chap and needs a more robust meal than the chocolate maker in York and, on the other hand, allowance for the fact that it ought to be cheaper to feed men by the thousand than for the individual lady to feed her husband in her own home—it still costs £103 to feed a soldier—about £93 to feed a sailor and about £73 to feed an airman.

§ Mr. Head

They live on air.

§ Captain Waterhouse

These are days when we have to look at expenditure very closely. I suggest that on these lines, first, the simplification of the great engines of war; second, the more detailed arrangements regarding the movement, feeding and clothing of troops, it would be possible to save a certain amount of money, a matter of vital importance to this country at the present time.

The position in the Middle East is dealt with in paragraph 79 of this year's White Paper, and in paragraph 61 of the White Paper of last year. There is a material difference in the wording of those two paragraphs, and it may well be that there is also a material difference in the meaning. This year we refer to the Governments of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa as having expressed their willingness to join with other interested Governments in setting up an Allied organisation for Middle East defence. There the word "organisation" is spelt with a small "o." Last year the expression was: The Governments of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa have accepted the invitation of the United Kingdom, the United States and French Governments to join with them and other interested Governments in setting up an Allied Command Organisation "— all with capital letters— in the Middle East. I do not wish to probe unduly into these matters. I am most anxious not to make any negotiations, when they start, one bit more difficult than they are bound to be. But I believe it desirable that I should give expression to the widespread feeling of anxiety which exists throughout the country on this matter of Middle East defence. The Minister will use his discretion about whether or not he feels able to give the House any information upon it.

I make no apology for raising the matter at this time. Events move with such amazing rapidity. Only three or four months ago everyone in this House was perfectly satisfied with the position in the Sudan. Now things have moved so quickly that we have not really understood what is happening——

§ Mr. James Carmichael (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Monstrous!

§ Captain Waterhouse

Many of us are greatly disturbed about some of the provisions in the Agreement we have signed with the Egyptian Government. We feel that the interests of the Sudanese may have been jeopardised in the signing of that Agreement. That is my reason for raising this matter today.

Nothing has a more direct bearing on the defence of the Empire, and the Commonwealth, and the whole of Western civilisation, than affairs in the Middle East. Since the dawn of history Egypt has occupied the key position in the world. That is not because of the Egyptian people, nor because there is a great river in Egypt. It is because Egypt happens to lie where two continents meet. One can do what one will and say what one will, but the geographical importance of Egypt will remain. I believe that at no time in the history of the nations has that been of greater importance than at the present.

It is, therefore, a matter of great significance that, within a few days of the signing of the Sudanese Agreement, various leaders in Egypt were saying that now was the time to shift the British troops altogether from Egyptian territory. I would remind the House of the sequence of events which lie behind this demand. I will not go back over a long period, but I will sketch in a few sentences what has happened since the war.

It was just before the war, in August, 1936, that we signed our present Treaty of "friendship and alliance" with Egypt. It runs for 20 years. At the end of that time it was to be our duty, if the Agreement had to be altered, to take it to the League of Nations, or some other arbitral body, if no arrangement could be arrived at between us. Then, immediately after the war, came trouble in Egypt. There were riots in 1945. In February and in March, 1946, anti-British riots broke out in Alexandria and in Cairo and two British soldiers were murdered.

On 7th May, 1946, there was a very disturbing announcement in this House, when the present Leader of the Opposition, then the Prime Minister, announced that negotiations had begun "in an atmosphere of cordiality and good-will" for the withdrawal of all British forces from Egyptian territory.

§ Mr. R. H. S. Crossman (Coventry, East)

Hear, hear.

§ Captain Waterhouse

I would remind the House of what the present Prime Minister said on that occasion. He spoke of it as being a very grave statement, one of the most momentous I have heard in this House—the complete evacuation of Egypt by all naval, military and air forces, and this offered at the beginning of the negotiations."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th May, 1946; Vol. 422, c. 782.] My right hon. Friend moved the Adjournment of the House, and during the debate he used these words: … who has ever suggested that there is any method of safeguarding the Canal except by troops in the Canal zone? You will not get any military man of eminence and responsibility to say that the Canal can be kept open —because that is the whole point; it is to keep the Canal open."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 7th May, 1946; Vol. 422, c. 893.] That was the opinion of my right hon. Friend six years ago, and the geography of Egypt has not altered in that time. The position has become very little better.

In January, 1947, the Foreign Secretary announced that the negotiations with Sidki Pasha had broken down, and that we therefore returned to the 1936 Agreement. But evacuation, both from Cairo and in the Delta, proceeded the whole time. We were moving our troops away from metropolitan Egypt on to the Canal, and it is on the Canal that they now rest. The riots, burnings and murders of recent months are still fresh in the minds of hon. Members as happenings which have occurred since we have left Abadan.

In the last few months there has been a change in the sovereignty in Egypt. Fuad has been dethroned—Farouk has been dethroned——

§ Mr. Crossman

Keep in the right century.

§ Captain Waterhouse

Now there is a new Government on trial. I am the last to wish to attack that Government or anyone else out of hand, but we have—[Laughter.] Hon. Members opposite may laugh, but I do not believe the British people will laugh at this. They look upon it as a serious matter.

There are three of four hon. Members opposite who sneer at everything British. They have no pride in this House or in the country. Those of us who speak from this side of the House at least speak with sincerity. When other hon. Members speak with sincerity we give them 595 their due, and when we speak with sincerity we expect them to give us our due.

§ Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne)

We are supporting the right hon. and gallant Gentleman.

§ Captain Waterhouse

I was saying that this Egyptian Government is now on trial. It would be unwise to condemn them out of hand. There is nothing new in these events. They are common throughout the whole of Egyptian history. Periods of riots and disturbances have nearly always heralded changes of Government. There is no guarantee that this new Government will be of any long duration.

Her Majesty's Government must make what agreement they think right and proper, but I hope that they will base it on the interests of the British Empire, the British Commonwealth and Western civilisation. I hope that they will not try to reach agreement merely for the sake of getting an agreement. The day has gone when any individual or any nation can stand in the way of world progress. In this country if any such incident arises we have our own methods for dealing with the individual. In international affairs we must find a way to deal with nations.

When Leningrad was in danger the Russians did not hesitate to take the steps they thought necessary to secure it at the expense of Finland. When the States in India got into Mr. Nehru's way, he dealt with them arbitrarily. Does anybody suppose that if the United States of America had been unable to come to an agreement with Panama for the construction of the Canal there—and much more so if, having constructed that Canal, incidents such as those in Egypt had taken place—the position would have been tolerated by the great American people? Of course not. The American people bought the Canal area from Panama. I have not the smallest doubt that we are perfectly prepared to buy the Suez Canal area from Egypt if they wish to sell.

The appeal I make to Her Majesty's Government and to the Egyptians is strong. For 70 years we have held out the hand of friendship to the Egyptian people. For 40 years, under Lord Cromer and those who followed, Egypt 596 was better governed than at any other time in its history. Now it is a free country. Let it show us that it understands the responsibilities as well as the rights of freedom. Let Egypt come to us as a free and sovereign country and make an arrangement with us, and the rest of the West if it wishes, for the security of the Canal and the Middle East. Above all, let the Government realise that we rely on them to arrive at an agreement about the Middle East which will give the security which the Egyptians, no less than we ourselves, need for the benefit of the whole world.

§ Mr. F. J. Bellenger (Bassetlaw)

It is about 17 years since I first claimed the indulgence of the House when making my maiden speech. After hearing the point of order of my hon. Friend the Member for Aston (Mr. Wyatt), I feel that once again I ought to ask the House to be patient with me even if, as a Privy Councillor, I may be privileged by being called early in the debate. I assure my hon. Friend that Privy Councillors on the back benches exercise some restraint in what they say. I hope to be able to compress my remarks so that they occupy the short period mentioned by my hon. Friend.

White Papers on defence seem to follow a uniform pattern, so far as I can recollect from the first White Paper which came to my notice in 1935, which was issued by Mr. Ramsay Macdonald. They are all, to a certain amount, given to wishful thinking and to a certain amount of hiding of the facts, as the Prime Minister will be the first to recognise. Before the war a considerable portion of his time was spent in trying to elucidate from his own Government what the real facts were.

We who lived through those days know now how inadequate those White Papers were. In 1939, in spite of the large amount that was supposed to be spent on defence, we were not prepared for war. In a discussion on defence we have to look at what the country will be like if war should come. Our defence forces are maintained for the purpose of avoiding war; but if history is any guide it does not appear that the existence of large defence forces can prevent an act of aggression if it is going to be undertaken by a country determined to get her own way by force majeure. 597 I want to examine this White Paper to ascertain whether the huge expenditure in manpower and money is adequate, inadequate, or more than adequate, for our purpose of trying to maintain peace or, if peace should be broken, trying to prevent the aggressor from over-running the free democratic world. Manpower in the Services, especially in the Air Force and Army, consists of two elements—the Regulars and the National Service contingent. It is interesting to compare the number of Regulars today with the number before the war. Shortly before the war the international situation was even more grim than it is today. Hitler had informed the world in no uncertain terms that he meant to have a war to get what he wanted.

With all the difficulties with which we have to contend from Russia, she has not gone so far as to say in those terms, as Hitler did, that she means war. I do not say for one moment that one can afford to ignore certain acts of aggression which have taken place in different parts of the world with Russian acquiescence and connivance. But in comparing the Regular Forces today with those of before the war we have—if it is not too extravagant a term—judged by this standard of grimness, an abundance of manpower.

During the '30s right up to 1938 when there was no doubt that we should shortly be involved in war, the average number of all ranks in the British Army was about 130,000 Regulars. Today, thanks, to a large extent, to the efforts of the Secretary of State for War, there has been an increase of nearly 80 per cent. Our Regular Forces are nearly 80 per cent. higher than they were in the terrible years immediately before the outbreak of war.

§ Mr. George Wigg (Dudley)

My right hon. Friend has overlooked the number in the Indian Army. The number was nearer 200,000 than 130,000.

§ Mr. Bellenger

I am quoting the figures for the British Army exclusive of the Indian Army.

§ Mr. Wigg

That overlooks the fact that the British soldier who enlisted in this country and transferred to India was borne on the strength of the Indian Army.

§ Mr. Bellenger

I am quoting the Army Estimates before the war. They dealt with British Service men, and these figures are official; I therefore hope the House will take them as being accurate. At any rate, if they are not accurate, perhaps the Secretary of State himself will get up and tell me where I am wrong.

§ Mr. Head

Can the right hon. Gentleman say from where he has taken his second figure for the Regular element? I am wondering whether he took the figure including boys and women, which is not comparable. I think the figure is nearer 180,000, as compared with the 130,000 before.

§ Mr. Bellenger

I am taking the figures in the White Paper, and I include, of course, the women, because they are doing administrative services, and they amount to something like 7,000. At any rate, that small element does not alter my comparison, namely, that the number of all ranks in the British Regular Army has increased over what it was in the years between the wars.

In addition to that, there is the National Service content, which we did not have before the war. That National Service element, with its two years' training period, in my opinion and in the opinion of many in the Army, is not really adequate for what the Army requires. I speak of the Army's problems because I am more familiar with them. The Army itself would prefer a longer period for effectiveness, not only in training, but in the actual fighting which the Army has to do on many fronts. If they could get it, they would prefer a period of three years.

Therefore, I am asking the House why we have this period of two years' National Service training. Originally, to a large extent, because the White Paper says so, the purpose of National Service was to create trained reserves, and we have reached a position today when the Government say in the White Paper that, by 1954, we shall have something between 400,000 and 500,000 trained National Service reserves. If we are to consider what is the right period for that purpose, should we not also consider what was the period of training which men received in the Army during the war to make them fit for immediate battle? The period was eight 599 to 10 months, and they were then—[Interruption.] I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that I am not speaking without my book, because these are official figures. The period was eight to 10 months, and, after such a period of eight to 10 months' training, the recruit or National Service man was liable to be involved in battle.

Let us look at another Army which I hope will be created before very long, because I believe that that fact will alter the whole strategic picture in Europe. I refer to the German Army. If re-armament comes in Germany as a result of the ratification of E.D.C., what do hon. Members think will be the period of National Service for which the Germans will ask or which they will be allowed to have? I doubt whether it will be anything like two years. Indeed, about a year ago, I was speaking to a German Army Group Commander who had had considerable experience on the Eastern Front, and who said: "If I could have my way completely, I would turn out trained soldiers from zero in six months." I rather queried that, because I still think it takes longer than six months to turn out a trained infantryman, to say nothing of the technical arms of the Services.

Therefore, I come to this conclusion. As far as training is concerned, it is not necessary to have two years, and, indeed, if it had been, why did not the present Government, then in Opposition, challenge the Labour Government when they introduced the period of 18 months, later reduced to 12 months? It is true that they criticised us for reducing it from 18 months, but they never asked for it to be increased to two years. Indeed, I go further and say that no demands were put forward by the expert advisers to any of the three Services for a longer period than 18 months.

What is the real reason why we have a two-year period of compulsory service? The reason is, of course, that in 1950 we had the war in Korea, and my hon. and right hon. Friends who were then in office decided, no doubt on expert advice, that it was necessary to strengthen the Forces. That period of two years' training was not necessary in order to supply the troops we have in Korea, because our contingent in Korea is comparatively small. It is true that we have certain 600 heavy commitments in Malaya, but, in speaking to this Amendment, all I have to show is, not that it is possible—although it is no doubt desirable on many grounds—to reduce the period of training immediately, but that it is possible in the next two or three years, if the conditions are not likely to be different to what they are now. After all, we cannot look many years ahead, but can only take conditions as they are now and assess what they will probably be in the next two or three years, and then make up our minds on that assessment. Indeed, I imagine that that is what the Staffs do.

I am one of those who believe that it will be possible within a period of two years to reduce the term of National Service from two years. I will not state a figure or a period to which that term should be reduced, because I think it should be reduced, not at one attempt, but probably by easing off from the two years down to what I think will be an adequate period of 18 months. On what do I base this opinion? I am not going to attempt to argue the question of commitments or the cutting of commitments. I think it would be the height of folly to advocate now, that we should come out of Egypt without further ado while we are undertaking delicate negotiations with General Neguib, which we hope will be successful.

But I do say, in regard to the Middle East, that our Treaty runs only for a further period of four years, and, within a certain period of time, if we observe our Treaty obligations, we must leave. I estimate that, if the Government are successful in their negotiations with Egypt, we shall be able to have in reserve, for some purpose or other—either for reducing the period of National Service or any other purpose—a substantial pool of men. That is all I want to say about our commitments in Egypt.

I now want to draw the attention of the House to the strategic defence picture in Europe, which has changed considerably since 1950, when the Labour Government increased the period of National Service from 18 months to two years. Since then, a Treaty has been made between Greece, Turkey and Yugoslavia, and that Treaty has tremendous possibilities from a defence point of view. Two of these countries—Greece and 601 Turkey—are members of N.A.T.O. Each of them has well-armed and on the whole well-equipped forces, and if those forces can be used in Eastern Mediterranean defence, there is no doubt that they will protect the vital flanks and relieve this country of a considerable burden which we have been undertaking for a long time.

Turkey—whose small contingent in Korea has shown that it can fight—has something like 22 divisions, of which 14 are fairly well equipped. They may not be up to the standard of the four British armoured divisions in Germany, but, nevertheless, they are a well-equipped and a good fighting force. I do not know the size of the Greek and Yugoslav armies, but I know that if the necessity arose each of these three countries could give a good account of themselves militarily, and that is what we want in allies.

One of the reasons I have consistently supported the re-arming of Germany is that the Germans, provided they fight on the right side, are soldiers with whom British soldiers would be glad to fight. British soldiers, of course, are always able to give a good account of themselves.

§ Mr. Bellenger

I am sorry I cannot give way to my hon. Friend, but in view of what my hon. Friend the Member for Aston has said about Privy Councillors, I think I had better get through my speech quickly and leave it to my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) to try and catch Mr. Speaker's eye later in the debate.

In support of what I have said about the battle-worthy qualities of the troops of Yugoslavia, Greece and Turkey, I would quote what the Yugoslav Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said the other day, that those armies in cooperation and even singly were very formidable forces. I do not think that the military experts on the benches opposite would deny that contention. The strategic picture of military strength in Europe, which I believe is something on which we can reasonably base the demands embodied in our Amendment tonight, has undergone and is still undergoing a remarkable change.

There is one other factor which I think should enable the Government within the 602 next two years to reconsider the period of National Service. That factor is Germany. If both Germany and France ratify the Treaty and the E.D.C. is set up, and if Germany provides a minimum of 12 divisions, that will upset the balance of power in Europe to our advantage and may make it unnecessary, at any rate for military reasons—although it may be desirable for political reasons—to keep four British armoured divisions in Germany.

The conclusion which I draw from the factors I have put before the House is that within the next two years the Government should undertake a review of the period of National Service and should, providing the military situation has not changed for the worse and that the factors of which I have spoken come into operation, then suggest a reduction in the period of National Service.

On the question of manpower, I think the Prime Minister is quite wrong when he tries to alarm us by suggesting what would happen if we reduced the period of service by six months. He said that if we did that, we should lose 1,800 officers and 10,000 corporals, which figures, I presume, were given to him by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War. How long did it take to make corporals and officers in the last war?

§ Mr. Head

That has nothing to do with it. The point is that whether it takes one day or six months to train a corporal we are bound to lose him in the last six months if we go from two years to 18 months.

§ Mr. Bellenger

That is quite true, but we lost corporals and officers as casualties in the last war. There will always be a wastage, but we shall have a constant turnover of National Service men from which to make corporals and officers, although it is true that we shall not have them for so long a period after they become corporals and officers.

I turn now to the material aspect. We were told in the White Paper and again today by the Prime Minister that serious reductions have been made in the provision of weapons and various other military materials. The Prime Minister supported the views he expressed by saying that economically the country was unable to afford the burden of the rearmament programme introduced by the Labour Government. 603 But what is going to be the effect of that? I suggest that we are going to be unbalanced. On the one hand, we shall have plenty of Regulars and National Service men and large reserves, but, on the other hand, those reserves will not be equipped for the duties they will have to undertake in the event of war. Small wonder, therefore, that Field-Marshal Montgomery, in statements made to many Members of this House, has expressed his concern, not at the lack of front-line troops, but at the lack of adequate and well equipped reserves which would be needed for the inevitable counter-attack once the line has been stabilised.

The White Paper makes it clear that our weakness does not lie solely in the inadequacy of the weapons available for our reserves. I go so far as to say that if war broke out tomorrow the 400,000 or 500,000 reserves, on whose training we have spent a lot of money, would not be able to be sent into Europe for some considerable time.

I challenge the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to state what our anti-aircraft defences are today. The White Paper talks about making certain modernisations and repairs to light anti-aircraft equipment. I submit—and let the right hon. Gentleman deny it if he can—that, compared with the money and effort we are spending on them, our antiaircraft defences are almost as bad as they were in the days when the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Supply was attacking his own Government for the lack of anti-aircraft batteries with which to protect London. That is a state of affairs which should be exposed.

Although I believe that a considerable advance has been made in equipping our first-line Forces with modern weapons, it seems to me that we have put our goods in the shop window and left nothing under the counter. [Interruption.] I suppose that the Parliamentary Secretary will reply later and I am making this statement in order to obtain a reply from him, if he will give it.

I should like to make one point in the nature of a question. I personally do not challenge the rightness of the Government's request to have a further period of five years for National Service men 604 after they have finished their Territorial or Auxiliary training. I understand that the Government are asking for registration only, but they say that these men will be liable to call-up in a military emergency. I should like the Government to define more clearly what they envisage as a military emergency. Of course if war came then obviously, as the Prime Minister implied, it would not be National Service men or Z Reservists alone who would be called up but, I fear, a good many more.

I have been observing and studying defence matters in this House for a good many years. I hope that I speak with some knowledge, though I would not say expert knowledge, and I hope also with responsibility on these matters. It is because I believe that it is possible on military grounds alone to reduce the period of National Service training within a reasonable period that I wish to support the Amendment which was moved by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. I hope that all of us, with our differing views on militarism, will be able to support that Amendment.

The Government are asking us for a blank cheque. Although as my right hon. Friend has said, the Opposition do not defer to the Government, in their resolution to defend this country and to observe our international commitments with adequate military forces, nevertheless, it is not right for the Opposition to pass a blank cheque to the Government and to acquiesce in their policy. If we did that we should not deserve the name of Her Majesty's Opposition.

§ Brigadier O. L. Prior-Palmer (Worthing)

It always seems to fall to me to have the great pleasure of speaking immediately after the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger). I shall not be able to follow him in his speech, except on the point of National Service, to which I should like to reply to him when I get to that part of my speech—if he can contain himself from going for his well-deserved refreshment until I come to it.

Before starting on my own speech, I should like to refer to what the Leader of the Opposition said today. He suggested that because the Prime Minister 605 had dwelt at length on the measures taken for home defence, that would alarm our allies, particularly France. But I suggest that because we are going to attempt to strengthen the Home Guard and have a certain number of mobile columns, and because the French in particular know that we have 11 divisions abroad, there is no great validity in that argument. I have been talking to a number of Frenchmen lately. They are very sensitive indeed that this country does not appear to appreciate the fact that they have something like 100,000 men in Indo-China and that the flower of the French Regular Army are fighting there. The oftener we can refer to the sacrifices that they are making there the better.

I regret that we are not having a two-day debate on foreign affairs and defence, because in my view the two are entirely inter-dependent. Treaty obligations are dependent on our defence Forces, and our defence Forces owe their raison d'être to our treaty obligations: and I cannot see how one can really debate the two things independently. If there is a feeling today that the danger of martial conflict in the West has receded, it is because our Forces have been strengthened there of late. If that be the case, and I believe it to be so, there is a change of emphasis. It is not a question of emphasis on tackling a hot war, as before. We must begin to think how we can deal more effectively with the cold war, especially in the West.

On that point, I am still disturbed at the amount of money allocated to the B.B.C. for their overseas broadcasts. I sent for figures this morning and have just received them. The B.B.C. spend 560 hours on broadcasting overseas where Moscow spends 1,000 hours. In my view, we have a wider area to which to broadcast than has Moscow, because we have to broadcast to the satellite countries. I really hope that the Government will be able to do what we asked the late Government to do when we on this side of the House were in Opposition, that is, to see that the B.B.C. have more facilities and more funds for this very important psychological aspect of cold warfare.

Reference has been made to a strategic reserve. I know the necessity for the Forces in Egypt at the moment, but I feel that the sooner we get the strategic re- 606 serve back to this country the better it will be. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] But not for the same reasons as those for which hon. Members opposite say "Hear, hear."

§ Mr. R. T. Paget (Northampton)

Why not?

§ Brigadier Prior-Palmer

Because from my own experience and training I always thought that concentration was better than dispersal. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is so nice to get the support of both sides of the House.

§ Mr. Paget

Do not be so coy about it.

§ Brigadier Prior-Palmer

I know that the strength of the strategic reserve in the Middle East is very much more than is required under our obligations under the 1936 Treaty, because the men were sent there to defend those vast installations and dumps and to protect British lives. We know the difficulties of the men. We know about the difficulties of families, the conditions under which they are living and so on; and we know of men who expected to be abroad for three years at the very most and who have been kept there longer.

I urge the Government to consider the transport of troops by air. I know the difficulties with regard to tanks and supporting weapons and so on, but in a very large number of cases it is not a question of that type of warfare. It is a question of dropping infantry with light supporting weapons to quell some disturbance. I know about the expense involved and I expect