DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS

§ Mr. Kenyon (Chorley)

I beg to move, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty as follows: Most Gracious Sovereign, We, your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament. I consider it a great honour on this historic occasion to have the privilege of moving the Address. This action unites us with the spirit of the former Chamber, and continues its customs, around which have been built momentous and historic events. The old Chamber, rich in history, and steeped in tradition, possessed the spirit of a bygone age. It was the battleground of great political figures, often strangely inconsistent as they fought for or against the measures of Government according to their respective beliefs. It was there democracy, through long years of bitter striving, finally achieved its right to share in parliamentary Government, realising that only through such power could social justice and greater economic equality be obtained.

War overshadowed many years of the old Chamber's existence, but the future may show that the war which caused its destruction and shattered the wealth of the nation marked an epoch in our history, from which war thereafter receded. While the opening of this Session coincides with the closing stages of the Korean campaign, I pray that never in this Chamber will an announcement of war be made, but that the years may crown our deliberations here with wisdom and bless them with peace.

The honour which is mine today is one which is shared by the constituency of 10 Chorley, which I represent. In 1922 my predecessor, the late Lord Hacking, also shared this honour, and I think I cannot do better than pay this tribute to his memory by quoting his words on that occasion: The constituency of Chorley will be proud of the honour paid to it today."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th February, 1922; Vol. 150, c. 8.] Chorley is a typical Lancashire constituency, and Lancashire is renowned for the industry of its people and their hospitality, as well as for the invigorating air of its seaside resorts. Difficult to win, not easy to hold, the constituency is a joy for which to work. A hive of busy people contribute their best in a variety of industries.

In agriculture, mixed dairy and arable farms are the main types; but commercial and specialist poultry breeding, market gardening, stock rearing and hill farming give a wide range of agricultural production. In industry, mining occupies that part of the area which lies on the fringe of the Lancashire coal field. The cotton industry is widely spread through towns and villages. Leyland and Chorley have become famous for motor engineering; Leyland Motors firm possesses a world-wide reputation for heavy motor vehicles, and exceed in exports the target laid down by the Government.

A variety of other industries give a wide choice to all workers, and superimposed upon these is the Euxton Royal Ordnance Factory; and to link the old with the new the nearby village of Mawdesley still excels in the craft of basket-making. This variety of industries failed in pre-war days to employ all our people, but today in mine, mill and workshop overseas foreign workers stand side by side with our workers, and vacancies still remain. The Ministry of Labour place such faith in the versatility of their local managers that I had the greatest difficulty in persuading them an interpreter was needed at the Chorley Exchange to deal with 18 different nationalities.

No one views lightly the burdens which the re-armament programme will bring, but the menace of war has to be faced. I would recall the words of Milton in this respect, when he said: But what is strength without a double share of wisdom? It is a disturbing fact that after centuries of capitalist Governments in all parts of 11 the world in one form or another—some good, some bad—we find that in 30 short years under post-war conditions Communism has captured one half of the world. This ideology can only be defeated by an ideology that is greater.

The continued support by the Government of the policy of the United Nations will receive general support, but our faith in U.N.O. arises from the belief that its real purpose is not resistance to aggression by war—necessary though that has become—but the development of such conditions in its member countries and the backward nations that aggression shall have no power to rise. A recognition of social justice, the raising of the standard of life, the abolition of poverty and hunger together with the evils they create, by constructive development of the resources of nature for all who share that labour—these are the duties of all who would establish the greater ideology of U.N.O., and I have confidence that the country supports the Government in these efforts.

The Festival of Britain will not only bring to the knowledge of the world the reality of our post-war recovery. It will also give to our people a pride in their industrial and scientific achievements. It is in the national interest that this Festival shall succeed.

Agriculture has enjoyed the support of Government policy for some long years now, and it is still in the forefront of our national production. The success of past Measures for its greater development encourage still further the step which the Government are now taking to bring into greater production the upland areas. The rearing of more livestock is one of our greatest needs, and if this Measure can increase their numbers still further it will be fully justified. The agricultural community of the country will give it a sincere welcome.

In continuing the policy of full employment, in giving high priority to the housing programme and to maintaining their social policy, the Government will have the support of the nation, for these are the mainstay of the good, healthy home life of the people. The strength of a nation lies not in the superiority of its Armed Forces but in the faith of its moral ideals and the spiritual character of its people.

§ Mr. James Johnson (Rugby)

I beg to second the Motion so fluently and ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon). In acknowledging that great honour, perhaps the greatest that a back bencher can have in this new House, I know that it will be shared in large measure by my constituents in Rugby and the teaching profession, to which I am proud to belong.

The constituency of Rugby has an illustrious if checkered political history. En our later and more sombre days—if I may use an adjective of the right hon. Member the Leader of the Opposition—we even had a Tory Chief Whip; but the honour conferred upon my division today is a unique one. Rugby is not only famed for its good sense in having sent a Labour Member to this House for the first time, but it is also world famous for many other things. There is its school, which has given its headmasters as Bishops of the Church, and I mention particularly William Temple—not only a good Christian but a good Socialist—who became Archbishop of Canterbury.

Many old boys adorn with distinction this House—perhaps too many of the opposite side for my fancy—although a number have seen the light and some adorn the bench below me. Again, the school has given its name to the great game of Rugby football. Having myself been born between Tyne and Tweed, where every boy is given a Soccer ball at birth and Association football is a religion, I never handled a ball of this curious oval shape until I went South to Leeds, but I admit that when Webb Ellis picked up that ball and ran with it on the school field in 1882, he really started something. I am heartened when I look to the great Dominion of New Zealand, where the All Blacks can play on the same field as the All Whites in equality and amity, and if we continue this spirit throughout the Empire as a whole the colour bar will soon be an anachronism, relegated to the history text books where it rightly belongs, like the slavery of the 19th century. I am told, Sir, that a debased form of the noble game has even conquered North America, so apparently there is hope yet for American capitalist democracy.

13 Rugby is famous for its efficient electrical engineering industry, where fine work has been done by the British Thomson-Houston and English Electric firms in extending overseas markets, and thus gaining dollars and hard currency. I mention particularly the B.T.H. with its production of heavy electrical equipment—over 40 per cent. of its manufactures going for export. The firm is noteworthy in that some 1,200 workers have more than 30 years of continuous service. This, and their fine apprentice training scheme—over 6,000 former apprentices are scattered over the globe—has produced a family spirit almost akin to clan loyalty. B.T.H. engineers began the B.B.C., and the first jet engine ever to fly in the world was built by engineers at Rugby.

In this industrial environment of highly-skilled engineers it is natural to find that we have a finely equipped technical college. I would remind hon. Members of the fact that our local education authority was the only one in England and Wales to implement fully the 1918 Fisher Act, between the two world wars, in the matter of day continuation classes. This was only possible by the official, unswerving cooperation of the local engineering firms.

Lastly, in local affairs, may I mention our magnificent housing performance? The council has built no fewer than 1,325 houses since 1945, and leads the West Midlands in this field. In this crucial matter of housing, hon. Members will not fail to note in the Gracious Speech that His Majesty's Government will continue to give high priority to housing. Like millions of others up and down the land I beg and pray that His Majesty's Government will not give way on this, despite all the demands of the Service Chiefs for rearmament.

I am glad to see that the Festival of Britain is going full steam ahead, despite the curmudgeons in our midst. Let us rejoice, for today more people have more money and more time than ever before in our history for rejoicing. There seems to me to be something amiss if people, at this time of magnificent post-war achievement, cannot proclaim to the world that this old country has as young and gifted a population as any new one; and has plenty to show in the arts and sciences and their application to industry and agriculture.

14 I am sure that all hon. Members north of the Tweed—and south of it, too—will welcome the Bill to eliminate the menace of organised salmon poaching in Scotland, although a falling off of the black market demand would certainly lessen the activities of these gentlemen. I am most happy that His Majesty's Government are to deal with the pollution of rivers and streams, for all anglers are appalled by the filth which is poured into our waters, poisoning the fish and even the fisherman. Izaak Walton will surely nod approval from the shades to the Minister of Health when this Bill is on the stocks.

All Members will have heard with pleasure that there is to be legislation to restore land devastated by limestone extraction, particularly those of us who were mute and helpless in the coalfields, when the fair landscape was desecrated by pit heaps. There were no village Hampdens then, as in these days of opencast mining. I rejoice that the Government are taking steps to restore the fair face of nature, instead of leaving her scarred and gashed as in the past.

I welcome the decision to set up a court of appeal from the decision of courts martial, and that at long last there is to be some measure of leasehold reform. I am particularly glad of the Government's intention to take over powers to regulate production, distribution and consumption, for without these controls it will be impossible for any Government, of whatever complexion, to keep our workers in jobs, and hold in check living costs for the housewife.

My hon. Friend has spoken of the United Nations. Let me in conclusion say a word about the Commonwealth and Empire—a subject near to my heart. In this speech one is advised to avoid controversy, but I would, in all sincerity, remind hon. Members that this great Empire of ours is no monopoly of any one party, but a common heritage of all peoples, stocks and, classes of these Islands. All, from the richest to the poorest, have given their sons and daughters to our overseas possessions, from James Cook, the Whitby grocer's boy to Cecil Rhodes, the diamond magnate.

I welcome particularly the phrase in the Gracious Speech: The development of the Colonial Territories and the welfare of their peoples will continue to receive the attention of my Government. 15 The ceremony in Westminster Hall last Thursday was a truly unique and moving occasion, and one image that will ever endure in my mind was the procession of Dominions and Colonial Speakers, particularly the fine and dignified figure of the Speaker of the Gold Coast.

Mr. Speaker, the unity of our Commonwealth and Empire, with its invisible bonds, is a constant source of wonder to other peoples of this globe. May it long continue and widen into a world commonwealth based upon the rule of law; otherwise, all our efforts in the domestic field will have been in vain.

§ Mr. Churchill (Woodford)

The Prime Minister has informed me that when he takes his place in the Debate he will make reference to the lamented death of King Gustav of Sweden. I am very glad to learn that that is his intention, and I am quite sure that the words in which he will express our sentiments in the matter will be such as to command the universal assent and agreement of the House.

It is customary to begin these speeches—and this is a period, an age, in which traditions and customs are rated very high, I am glad to say, after the electoral changes which have taken place—by paying compliments to the mover and the seconder of the Address. I certainly find no difficulty whatever in recording what, I think, was the general opinion, that they made excellent speeches, that they ranged over wide and varied fields, that they never at any moment fell into sharp political controversy; that where their point of view was indicated it was outlined with great restraint, and, generally speaking, that they have acquitted themselves in a manner which is certainly not likely to be any detriment to them should events occur in the future where seats held on small margins or by minority votes will be in jeopardy.

I thank them both for what they have said and for the strong support which they both gave to the Measure against salmon poaching. There may be a difference of opinion in the House as to whether there ought to be salmon—at any rate privately-owned salmon—but we can probably all agreed that, pending any Measure for the nationalisation of the salmon industry, poaching should be sternly and severely prohibited.

16 The hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) spoke to us about the Empire and Commonwealth, and I was very glad indeed to hear him use the word "Empire." I am quite prepared to use the word "Commonwealth," although if we look into the historical foundations of the word "Commonwealth," we will find a good many things which jar with the conception of a Constitutional Monarchy or a free House of Commons. But words alter their meaning as the years pass by, and there always was that sense attaching to "Commonwealth," that everything you have is owned in common, which is, at any rate, a point of view deserving to be considered.

Both hon. Members referred also to the Festival of Britain. We are going to have our Festival of Britain next year, and it is a matter in which both parties will take part. We shall do our best to help the Government make the Festival a success—

§ Mr. Shurmer (Birmingham, Sparkbrook)

Let the right hon. Gentleman talk to those behind him.

§ Mr. Churchill

I may surely address myself to whatever quarter of the House I like. However, we shall do our best to help the Government to make the Festival a success, although there is one feature in any true Festival of Britain which would commend itself above all others to me, and that is one in which I can hardly expect the support of the party opposite.

I congratulate the Government upon the way they managed and organised the celebrations for the opening of the new House of Commons. I like to see this reverence and respect for the past and all we owe to those who have gone before, and to see Ministers of State shake themselves clear from the obsession into which they fall from time to time—that the only good things ever done in Britain occurred after the General Election of 1945. The celebrations which we embarked upon certainly had the effect of making us feel how much we had in common in the past, and how much, I hope, we shall find in common in the future.

Personally, I welcome the Socialist Party's conversion to Parliamentary government, instead of the direct action which was their mood 20 years ago, when 17 there was a very strong feeling that Parliament was nothing but an impediment to the progress of democracy and that it would not be inside the walls of Parliament that any real advance could be made. Now there is a great reconciliation, and the House of Commons is accepted as a thoroughly democratic institution—there is even an ugly rush for the House of Lords. The Mother of Parliaments has a tough digestion, and very great improvements have, no doubt, been effected upon the character, substance and structure of the party opposite by contact with Parliamentary institutions, although I shall have a little later to indicate what may perhaps be thought to be a reversion to the bad habits of former days.

I am very glad, however, that we have found ourselves all agreed—I find it very difficult myself to avoid from time to time feeling in a kindly mood, especially towards those with whom I worked for so many years, although when we come to discuss public affairs in our present difficult situation I have no difficulty in finding barriers which exist between us—about foreign policy. We seem to have followed, though with somewhat halting steps, the course which I outlined at Fulton, Missouri, in March, 1946, and at Zurich in September of that same year. We have given the Government wholehearted support on their measures for national defence, which they have asked us to approve, while, of course, reserving the fullest freedom to criticise the tardiness, inefficiency, insufficiency and failure to give value for the vast sums of money which the House has voted.

Naturally, I am glad that the Prime Minister and others are at length converted to the principle of a European Army or an Atlantic Defence Force—we will not quarrel about the terminology when the principle is the same—of an army of this character, for the defence of Europe, to which Germany will be invited to contribute divisional formations. In September, when we discussed this matter, I see that I said eight or ten German divisions. American opinion, I believe, inclines towards ten, and I gather that the Government are in general agreement with the United States. There is nothing like progressing on what I think are right and sound lines, and I congratulate the Government on not being hampered at all 18 by anything they have said about these matters in the past but on addressing themselves boldly and with a free mind to the problems as they present themselves day by day.

The successful intervention of the United Nations in Korea and General MacArthur's brilliant conduct and measurement of military events are all, of course, things for general rejoicing. I should like to point to what appears to be the masterly character of his handling of the situation in Korea. First of all, there was the question of selling ground for a time, very difficult and terrible to settle from day to day. Then there was the question of the size of the minimum perimeter that must be held. Obviously, it was desirable to hold as wide a perimeter as possible in order to detain as many of the enemy as possible without being perpetually broken through because of being thin on the ground. Finally, there was the counter-stroke, the cat claw, the amphibious descent, which revolutionised the entire situation.

I hope we shall find that the Americans in getting ashore opposite Seoul, were not so hampered by great quantities of vehicles as was the expeditionary force which the United States organised in conjunction with our forces to get ashore at Anzio in 1943. It looks to me as if the lessons of the last war have been well appreciated and understood, and that this great commander in the military field—I entirely agree that the civil authority has supreme authority over the military man—has rendered services from which we should not now withhold our hearty approbation and applause.

I was surprised not to find in the Gracious Speech any mention of the United States, not merely for the fact that the British Socialist Government have lived for five years very largely on their bounty, without which, as the Lord President of the Council and the Minister of Health reminded us a little while ago, there would have been two million unemployed at that time. Apart from that, it seems to me that tribute should have been paid to the Americans for their action in Korea. It was President Truman's prompt initiative in June which enabled unprovoked aggression to be resisted. I am glad that we had naval forces on the spot, though at the moment I do not know how big they were.

§ Mr. John Hynd (Sheffield, Attercliffe)

The right hon. Gentleman might give his own country some credit.

§ Mr. Churchill

I have never been at all backward in defending the claims and considerations of this country, but I do not think that those claims are well sustained if they are based on a failure to recognise the overwhelming contribution which another country, the United States, has made. I have not got the actual figures of our contribution at the present time, but when we see what they are, I think it will be found that an enormous proportion of the whole burden has been borne by the United States, and that the least we could do would be to accord that country some consideration. We have quite enough real achievements in our record without endeavouring to minimise the legitimate and rightful contributions of great allies towards the common cause which we support. Some recognition of the United States' efforts should have been contained in the Gracious Speech.

The local importance of events in Korea is far outweighed by the effects on the world situation. These events have definitely increased the prospects of averting a third world war. We are all agreed that the only hope for the future of mankind lies in the creation of a strong, effective world instrument, capable, at least, of maintaining peace and resisting aggression. I hope we shall pursue—I was very glad to see that it was being pursued—this idea of a United Nations armed force. I see that I said in the speech at Fulton to which I referred: I have, however, a definite and practical proposal to make for action.…The United Nations organisation must immediately begin to be equipped with an international armed force. In such a matter we can only go step by step, but we must begin now. I propose that each of the Powers and States should be invited to delegate a certain number of air squadrons to the service of the world organisation. These squadrons would be trained and prepared in their own countries, but would move around in rotation from one country to another. They would wear the uniform of their own countries, but with different badges. They would not be required to act against their own nation, but in other respects they would be directed by the world organisation.…I wished to see this done after the first world war and I devoutly trust that it may be done forthwith. I am glad to see there is progress in that direction.

20 Foreign policy and national defence can, of course, be discussed in the general Debate which is now open, but in view of the great measure of agreement prevailing on principle, they are obviously not suited to be the subjects of Amendments to the Address. We shall however, ask for a Debate on defence before we separate for Christmas. We consider that that Debate should preferably take place in Secret Session. I am sure that there are many questions of detail which it would be much better to discuss in Secret Session, although I am sure that the House is not likely to betray those secrets to any foreign Power—besides which a great deal is already known. On the general topics with which I dealt at the end of the last Session, and with which I could have dealt more in detail in Secret Session, much is now becoming world public. The strength of the forces in Europe is now well-known, for example.

The matters into which we ought to go now are all kinds of questions connected with the equipment of the troops, the details of our air forces, technical matters connected with our anti-submarine defence, and so forth. It would be very much better that we talked these matters over among ourselves, and that the House should take responsibility for them on hearing for itself the facts. Therefore, we shall ask that the Debate shall be in secret. We may notice that in this House there are strangers knocking about. I should not wish to take any unfair advantage of the Government in any way, but I must impress upon the Prime Minister that we shall ask that the Debate shall be in secret.

There will also have to be a Debate on foreign policy before we separate. Although these matters can be discussed now, a full statement is required from the Foreign Secretary, whose recovery we hope is complete. All those matters must be dealt with.

Besides this, I undertook, with the representatives of other European countries at Strasbourg, to bring the resolutions passed by the Consultative Assembly to the notice of Parliament. We all promised to bring them before our Parliaments. I hope that the Government will find a day for this matter—I am really addressing myself to the Lord President of the Council. I hope that he will be able to find a day before the meeting of the 21 Assembly on 17th November. Of course, if His Majesty's Government decline the honour of deferring to the wishes of this great international body which has grown up under their patronage, as they would say, other facilities are at our disposal. I should have thought that, on the whole, it would be a very reasonable thing that those resolutions should be laid before the House and that some discussion should take place upon them. I think it is all right, and I am very glad. I gather that the Prime Minister is going to assent to this proposal—unless I say something before I sit down which ruffles him up the wrong way.

I have now dealt in broad measure with matters on which there is agreement between us, although here and there I may have struck a note which did not obtain universal accord. I must now come to the Prime Minister's difficulties. His need is to find grounds for domestic quarrel and acts of partisanship and political spite to placate his tail, which may be feeling that there is too much of this good will all round, too much general agreement going about on foreign policy and defence, because there may be the danger of a Coalition, or something like that. The right hon. Gentleman has been looking about—and I have no doubt that his faithful spaniel, if I may apply that term to the Lord President of the Council, has been looking industriously around—to find causes of quarrel and dispute. "After all," they may say, "we must have some. We cannot be doing everything the Tories wish us to do." Many years ago I sat in a Government which had presented to it problems in that guise.

It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman has been looking for causes of dispute between us when he proposes this extraordinary measure—[HON. MEMBERS: "On salmon poaching?"] That is not the only problem that unites the Government and the Opposition today. Happily on that, we are hooked together. But whoever says: "We are not picking a quarrel or trying to make bad feeling between the parties," must look at the paragraph on the last page of the King's Speech about the Supplies and Services Act. I will not read the paragraph again, because it has been read several times already, but it seems to me that this vague language for giving all kinds of tremendous powers to the Executive to 22 regulate production, distribution and consumption and to control prices, goes further than anything I have seen before. This is not planned economy. This is a blank cheque. The Prime Minister is sailing back upon his course, to the position which he adopted some 17 or 18 years ago. He is going back on the reform that we thought had been achieved in his character and conduct, and which seems to have slipped off him now. In using this language, he has gone back to the days when he wrote, in 1933—[Interruption.] All right. Hon. Members can quote me up to 20 years ago, but there is a Statute of Limitations— The important thing is not to do things with scrupulous regard to the theories of democracy or exact constitutional propriety, but to get on with the job.…It may be said that this is rather like the Russian plan of commissars and Communist Party members. I am not afraid of the comparison. We have to take the strong points of the Russian system and apply them to this country. The Lord President, too, speaking at Southport in 1934, said: I would sooner the State, through a Labour Government, got into its control key industries, service after service, until, within a reasonable time, we are substantially masters of the economic fabric of the community and the means of production and distribution.…Then is the time to take the big decision.…Then we can make a fair, clean and equitable sweep. How easy to make it!

These are the previous convictions of the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and it seems very dangerous that the vain language used in this paragraph should be put into the mouth of the King by a party which in its root and origin is absolutely ready to go to the extremes of which the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council spoke. [Interruption.] Are hon. Gentlemen opposite ashamed of what they said then? I welcome it if they are. Are the right hon. Gentlemen ashamed of it? I think that they would rather have bitten off their tongues than have used such words. The fact that such statements are in their minds and records should be borne in mind in relation to the vain words of this paragraph about regulating production, distribution and consumption and controlling prices.

I thought we had reached a working arrangement about this last week. I thought we had had the answer that the 23 Government would have an annual review. The Lord President of the Council said that the Supplies and Services Act should be permanent. We asked that it should be annual and he then said that it would be annual. Yet within a few days he has turned round with a rapidity which would excite the envy of the nimblest squirrel and comes here and says, "We must have a Bill to make these wartime regulations permanent."

Many regulations are made in wartime, and Socialism, as I understand it, is a continuance in time of peace of the war-time regulations, with others added thereto from time to time. Nevertheless, it astonishes me that this proposal should be put forward now. I do not know when notice will be given of the Bill. That will depend on when we shall be able to discuss it. It seems that without any doubt whatever this Measure will give the Executive powers utterly beyond anything which is compatible with a decent and reasonable Parliamentary system.

I want to ask the Prime Minister this question. Does the Measure for regulating supplies and services on a permanent basis include the direction of labour directly or indirectly? It would, of course, be quite easy, without actually mentioning it in those words, to arrive at the result, and I should like to know about that, because it was only the other day that, at our request, the Measure for the direction of labour was abolished in time of peace. I really cannot understand why this Measure is necessary after last week's arrangement. It seems to be at once full of vague menace and at the same time very silly, because it is unlikely that this Parliament will last long enough to make it effective and it is certain that any anti-Socialist majority would be opposed to controls for controls' sake and would labour to reduce them to a minimum, and, anyhow, would keep them, if need be, on an annual basis subject to annual review by Parliament. I really cannot understand what this was for. I do not know whether there was some vague idea of forcing a General Election or something of that kind. It is an extraordinary position. The Prime Minister should deal with these five lines of blatant and impudent demagogy.

Then there is the proposal about beet sugar, which is no doubt intended to keep 24 alive the nationalisation issue, but somehow or other the Government seem, while letting off both barrels, not to have hit Tate and Lyle. Perhaps that is what they were aiming at, but they seem to have shot at a pigeon and hit a crow. I will not venture to go further into the technical details of this Measure until I am a little more acquainted with it. How could I be better acquainted with it when the Gracious Speech has only just been read this morning by His Majesty? It is true that I had an advance copy, but that told me very little more than what has appeared in the newspapers during the last three or four days.

We shall await further details, but at first sight this looks to me as if it were an attempt to feed the fires of party controversy, by which our country is already sufficiently disturbed. I should have thought that the enforcement of iron and steel nationalisation would have been sufficient to achieve that evil purpose. Here, at any rate, is a fundamental division on a practical issue. The present position of the iron and steel industry seems to require immediate Parliamentary attention and we must see what is the best way by which it can be brought directly before the House.

On top of these acts of faction for faction's sake, I come to the evils from which we all suffer—I mean, both parties. There is the ever-rising cost of living. We have to pay 25s. for what £1 would have bought at the end of the war in 1945. These are terrible facts. No doubt world causes are at work. Do not laugh, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer. You will find lots in this which will arouse other emotions than those which excite your risible inclinations. Next door to you sits one of the prime architects of our financial misfortunes. Do not imitate his methods but learn from his fate what to avoid. We now pay 25s. for what we could have got for 20s. after the devastating struggle of the war and before matters were handed over to Socialist control. Hampering controls, bulk buying, the inefficiency and cost of nationalisation, and wasteful and extravagant finance have accentuated and aggravated the movement of world causes, which, I fully admit, has played its part in bringing about this state of affairs. All this rise is in spite of the vast sums which have been given or lent to this country by the United States and 25 by our Dominions. Enormous assets have been liquidated.

The precise Amendment to which we shall give precedence is, of course, housing. The utter failure of the housing policy of the Government must be brought home to the nation. The Minister of Health—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"]—I should have thought that we were getting sufficiently controversial for the right hon. Gentleman to have shown up. The Minister of Health has stood between the people and the homes they so bitterly need. We have said that the target should be raised—[HON. MEMBERS: "Target?"]—from 200,000 to 300,000. The Lord President of the Council said that I introduced this word "target." Really, in the responsible position he has, with, I presume, people to keep him straight, on matters of fact, at any rate, I wonder that he does not look up a few of the facts and try to state true facts.

This is what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) said in moving the Motion—let me have the attention of the Lord President because, when one is found out to be utterly wrong, one may as well try to learn from it. I did not originate the word "target" at all. This is what he said in moving the Motion: We have to set ourselves a target, Then he said: My submission is that the target should never he set lower than 300,000 houses a year.

§ Mr. Shurmer

Who moved the Motion?

§ Mr. Churchill

This is the speech of a member of our party.

§ The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

Will the right hon. Gentleman forgive me for interrupting? The comparison I made in the observations I ventured to utter was between the resolution of the conference, forced down the throats of the platform by the hysterical rank and file, which declared for a minimum production of 300,000 houses a year, and that two days afterwards the right hon. Gentleman welcomed the decision but at once turned the minimum production of 300,000 into a target.

§ Mr. Churchill

And two days before, the hon. and gallant Gentleman who 26 speaks for the Opposition Front Bench used this very same expression "target." There can be no doubt whatever that it is perfectly practicable and possible to build at the rate of 300,000 houses—

§ Mr. Hector Hughes (Aberdeen, North)

Will the right hon. Gentleman—

§ Mr. Churchill

There can be no doubt whatever that it is well within our power.

§ Mr. Manuel (Central Ayrshire)

What did the right hon. Gentleman's party do when they had power?

§ Mr. Churchill

All this outcry when I ask a thing like this is exactly what the Prime Minister and others did when we said, "Reduce petrol rationing." They said "How irresponsible, how impossible." Do not hon. Members imagine that the people of this country know perfectly well that building at the rate of 300,000 houses a year is a perfectly practicable measure, and one which should be taken as a direct and immediate aim?

§ Mr. Hector Hughes

Will the right hon. Gentleman—

§ Mr. Speaker

The right hon. Gentleman does not give way.

§ Mr. Churchill

We shall discuss all this in detail next week, but it does seem to me—

§ Mr. Speaker

If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way, the hon. and learned Member must not rise continually.

§ Mr. Hughes

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I think the right hon. Gentleman did have the courtesy to give way.

§ Mr. Speaker

It was because I rose, and that is a very different matter.

§ Mr. Churchill

I do not know what the hon. and learned Gentleman has to do with the building industry, but I hope he knows more about it than he does about the procedure of the House of Commons. If I may make the point on which I was engaged—

§ Mr. Speaker

Does the hon. and learned Gentleman rise to a point of order?

§ Mr. Hughes

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, is it not the custom in the House of Commons for a right hon. or an hon. Member to give way for an intervention?

§ Mr. Speaker

It is entirely a matter for the hon. or right hon. Gentleman himself. There is no custom about it.

§ Mr. Churchill

This is the point I wish to make. It is treated as a most extraordinary thing that we should ask that the rate of building should be raised from 200,000 to 300,000 houses a year. That is the view. We are denounced for having suggested it. It seems to show a great lack of proportion. It shows the want of a sense of proportion to suppose that such a measure as building at the rate of 100,000 houses a year more, is an impossible task for this powerful, well-equipped country.

Why should it be thought to be impossible? One hundred thousand houses at £1,500 apiece would cost £150 million a year. That ought not to be beyond our capacity if the priorities are properly arranged [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] I repeat, if the priorities are properly arranged and a reasonable time is given to collect the materials. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"] Certainly, it should not be impossible for a country to find this rearrangement of the expenditure of £150 million. It should not be impossible to find a method of doing that, when we consider that our national income is around £10,000 million a year. It is a very small re-adjustment and re-arrangement of priorities that is required. Do not let the House be put off by all this, what I should have thought was to hon. Members opposite, most injurious outcry and clamour that to try to get 300,000 houses a year built for the people was a wrong and shameful thing for anyone to advocate. We shall ask the House next week to inflict its censure upon the Government for this grave mismanagement of the housing problem.

I have only one word more to say, because interruptions have rather lengthened what I had thought of saying. Uncertainty—I address myself very much to the Prime Minister—about the election date is harmful. Prolongation of the electioneering atmosphere is not good for the country. A year has passed 28 already in which we have lived in that atmosphere, which can be felt here; even already it has infected our new House. The House is not at its best when parties are so evenly balanced and on the verge of another appeal. The increasing rigidity of party discipline deprives debate of much of its value as a means of influencing opinion except out of doors. All kinds of uncertainties are created in every direction; all kinds of animosities and rancours are fed and worked up, on both sides, I fully admit—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Certainly; and I cannot think it good for the country that this should continue. The Prime Minister deliberately tries to increase and prolong this uncertainty. He says, "The election will come at the moment when I judge fit."

§ Mrs. Braddock (Liverpool, Exchange)

What did the right hon. Gentleman do in 1945?

§ Mr. Shurmer

What would the right hon. Gentleman do?

§ Mr. Churchill

The hon. Gentleman asked what I would do. I say deliberately that I think that if I were with the responsibilities of the Prime Minister at this juncture, having regard to all that is going on, I would try to limit the uncertainty as much as possible. I would carefully consider whether I could not say, provided we had the control of events, that we should not have an election until a certain date. I think it is well worthy of consideration whether that might not be of general interest. [Interruption.] I have finished. Of course, it is very natural that anyone should like to feel that he can keep the rest of his countrymen on tenterhooks and that we are always awaiting the moment when he shall give the signal. All I can say is that I am quite satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman is indulging his personal power in these matters in a manner most costly to the community and harmful to all large enduring interests of the State.

§ The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee)

I should like to join with the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) in his congratulations to the mover and seconder of the Motion for an Address in reply to the Gracious Speech. This is always an ordeal, even for Members who have been a long time in the House of 29 Commons. I never had that ordeal myself. When I first addressed the House there were not very many Members present. Now, it is much more an ordeal when, on a State occasion, hon. Members have to address a full House, and I think that hon. Members on all sides will agree that my hon. Friends the Members for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) and Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) have acquitted themselves very well. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I thought that the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley, in moving die Motion, was very charming; it had some of those light touches which the House likes.

Before turning to deal with the Gracious Speech, and, incidentally, with some of the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, I will, in accordance with custom, make some remarks about our future business. It is proposed that the Debate on the Address should occupy the remainder of this week. It will, we hope, be brought to a close on Tuesday of next week. The subjects for discussion in the course of the general Debate, or on a specific Amendment, such as the one to which the right hon. Gentleman has alluded, are, of course, a matter for Mr. Speaker, and no doubt the customary consultations will take place through the usual channels.

We have been considering the question of Private Members' time in relation to the forthcoming Session. Our proposal is to set apart 20 Fridays for Private Members' business, Bills and Motions being taken on alternate Fridays. The House will remember that the Select Committee on Procedure of 1945–46 recommended that the first 20 Fridays after the Address should be given to Private Members' Bills and Motions and that they should be taken alternately. We ask the House to accept the principle of this recommendation.

Under normal practice, the ballot to determine the priority of Private Members' Bills would be held this week, and by Thursday Members would have had to make up their minds on the Bills they wish to bring forward. When we gave facilities for Private Members' Bills in the Session of 1948–49, we delayed the machinery of the ballot for a reasonable time in order that Members might have adequate notice to prepare themselves. I think that this was generally welcomed 30 by the House, and we feel that it would be an advantage in giving hon. Members a period of notice in this Session. We therefore propose that the first of the Fridays for Private Members' business should be Friday, 24th November. A Motion to give effect to the Government proposal which I have announced will have to be taken not later than Monday, 13th November.

In the meantime, as, I am sure, the House will recognise, we shall have to propose a Motion tomorrow to take the time of the House for Government business and stop the presentation of all Bills except Government Bills until the ballot is held, because if Private Members were allowed to bring in Bills immediately it would defeat the whole purpose of the ballot, which is to determine priority. I hope that our proposals with regard to Private Members' time will be generally agreeable to the House. We should propose to discuss the details of these arrangements through the usual channels.

The right hon. Member for Woodford has given notice that he would like to discuss the doings of the European Assembly. I had understood that with great generosity he was proposing that that should be taken in Opposition time.

§ Mr. Churchill

No.

§ The Prime Minister

That was my impression. It can be discussed through the usual channels.

§ Mr. Churchill

The Prime Minister is not quoting me correctly. I said I hoped that the Government would give time—it is their duty to give it—but if they will not we still have the facilities at our disposal.

§ The Prime Minister

That can be discussed through the usual channels.

There are, as usual, some Bills which we need to pass before the Christmas Adjournment, such as the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill and also the Restoration of Pre-war Trade Practices Bill, which must be passed before 10th December. I do not think that that is a controversial Bill. It has the support of both sides of the National Joint Advisory Council. There is also the MacManaway Indemnity Bill, which, obviously, should be passed as soon as possible. We propose to introduce it very shortly.

31 I am sure that the whole House is glad to know of the visit of the Queen of the Netherlands and the Prince of the Netherlands. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] They will be welcomed in this country both for themselves and as the Rulers of our very good friends and allies, the Dutch.

I should not like this occasion to pass without reference to the sad loss suffered by our friends the Swedes by the death of their revered sovereign His Majesty King Gustav V, at the very venerable age of 92. He was indeed the father of his country; for nearly 43 years he had with unfailing dignity and wisdom upheld the finest traditions of constitutional monarchy and he had shown a very full understanding of the democratic age in which we live. To his son and successor, now King Gustav VI, to his English Queen and to the people of Sweden, we would offer our sincere condolences on their loss and our good wishes for a long and happy reign.

The Gracious Speech deals with a number of topics; I shall not deal with all in detail, but there are points about which I would like to make some remarks to the House. There is, first of all, foreign affairs and Defence. The right hon. Gentleman has suggested that later we should need another Debate on those matters. We discussed them a few weeks ago, but I would like to allude to events in Korea. There is a very remarkable change in that situation. When we last met the Forces of the United Nations were very hard pressed in the perimeter. Since then the masterly strategy of General MacArthur, the fighting quality of the troops and the landing at Inchon have resulted in the disruption of the North Korean forces and it looks as if the end of this campaign were in sight.

I was sorry that the right hon. Gentleman thought it necessary to suggest that we were not paying adequate tribute to the American Forces. It was quite unnecessary and only serves to stir up bad blood between us. Tribute has been paid over and over again in this House. I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman is always trying to suggest that everything this Government have done has been done with the assistance of the Americans and also that we are being ungrateful to the Americans. I wish, con- 32 sidering his history and the fact that he is also descended from people on both sides of the Atlantic, he would try not to stir up bad blood and misunderstanding. As we know, American troops have played a major part in this undertaking, but Commonwealth sea, air and land forces have done their share and our British brigade has borne a very full part in this fight. I hear they have earned golden opinions and been part of the spear-point of the attack.

Success, however, does bring another problem and the task before the United Nations now is that of promoting the establishment in Korea of unified, independent and democratic government. In this specific task and in the rehabilitation of Korean economy I think the United Nations must try to show the same spirit of agreement and determination as they have shown in military resistance to aggression. As far as this Government are concerned, we shall give to this task the fullest contribution in our power.

The Economic and Social Council of the United Nations are at present considering appropriate terms of reference for the Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. Meanwhile, appeals for supplies required for the immediate assistance of the civil population of Korea have been addressed by the Secretary-General, at the request of the unified command, to various Governments thought to be in a position to supply them and Treasury authority has been given for the expenditure of half a million pounds on the Foreign Office Vote for the purpose of some of the immediate relief supplies requested by the Secretary-General.

The Gracious Speech also alludes to the proceedings at the United Nations and I would call attention to the resolution of the United Nations on action for peace. We ought all to recognise that it was the absence of the Soviet representative from the Security Council which enabled the prompt action to be taken which has demonstrated the ability of the United Nations to deal with aggression. We all hope that this will deter any others who might meditate similar action but, if such a thing were to happen, it might not be possible to take the same swift action. This has been realised at Lake Success and, accordingly, the Political Committee of the General Assembly adopted, by 50 votes to five, with only three abstentions, 33 a resolution, sponsored by the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Canada, the Philippines, Turkey and Uruguay, the purpose of which is to ensure that the General Assembly of the United Nations should be in a position to make prompt and efficacious recommendations in the face of an act of aggression or breach of the peace when the Security Council is paralysed by the veto.

I have no doubt that this resolution will be endorsed by a similar majority of the full Assembly. The resolution provides that emergency sessions of the Assembly can be called at short notice to recommend steps in order that the member States shall be in a position to respond promptly, if they wish to do so, to any recommendation, including the use of armed force, that the General Assembly may consider necessary. It also provides new machinery whereby United Nations' observers can be sent without delay to any area where peace is threatened, with the permission of the State concerned.

We had our discussions on defence and foreign policy a few weeks ago and the measures which were indicated in the defence Debate have been vigorously pressed forward. At the moment my right hon. Friend the Minister for Defence and the Chiefs of Staff are engaged in Washington in the discussions of the North Atlantic Defence Committee. Those are very important discussions and we are considering, among other matters, a thing we have noted with great interest—proposals which the French Government have laid before the French Assembly for the formation of a European army. These proposals include far-reaching suggestions which are being carefully studied by His Majesty's Government both in London and in concert with other North Atlantic Treaty Ministers of Defence in Washington.

I must say I thought the right hon. Gentleman departed, perhaps, from his usual accuracy of language by suggesting that there was no difference between a European army and proposals for North Atlantic defence. In considering these proposals the main object of His Majesty's Government has been to ensure the creation at the earliest possible date of an effective defence force in Europe under the North Atlantic Treaty system. We hope that plans to that end will be made with as little delay as possible and the 34 North Atlantic Defence Ministers, including the French Minister of Defence, are now formulating proposals for the creation of such a force and they are considering whether the French ideas for a European Army can be fitted in with the North Atlantic Treaty idea. As we have already made plain, in our view Germany should be able to make an appropriate contribution to the building up of the defence of Europe. This also, is now under discussion in Washington, but until that study is complete it is not possible to make public any further information.

Our plans to strengthen our defences are bound to have far-reaching effects in the economic sphere. Last September we announced a three-year programme totalling about £3,600 million and we stated that we could not carry this out ourselves alone; that that was what was physically possible. We then discussed that with the Americans, and we are making good progress about the immediate assistance they can give on an interim basis. Meanwhile, progress has been made in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and we are making a new approach to the long-term problem. Our own task is to assess the burden of defence expenditure and distribute it fairly among the member nations.

I would like to emphasise this. Our approach is based on the concept of a political partnership between the North Atlantic countries, a partnership in which each will contribute according to its ability in pursuit of decisions in common. The Deputies are at work on this, and they are to call on the fund of ability and experience which has been at our disposal during the work done in the last three years in O.E.E.C. An economic and financial group has been set up here in London, drawn mainly from the national delegations to the Paris organisation, but obviously, to work out a long-term plan will take some time.

I should stress again, as I made clear in September, that we are not holding back. We are going ahead with production on the basis of this planned expenditure. There is no time to be lost. This, however, is without prejudice to anything we may agree with our partners in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation on how this economic burden should be shared. These are very important defence 35 matters and no doubt we shall want to discuss them at a later time. But I would like to assure the House that these things are moving steadily forward, though it is not easy to work out all these details rapidly with so many colleagues and allies.

I should like to turn to the affairs of the Commonwealth and Empire that are mentioned in the Gracious Speech from the Throne. It is fair to say that never at any time has our co-operation with our fellow members been so close. That very welcome visit last week of the Speakers and Presiding Officers of so many countries may be said to have been the outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual unity. During September the opportunity was taken of the presence in Europe of Commonwealth Ministers to hold a series of informal meetings to discuss general economic and trade questions. Our purpose in these meetings was to have an exchange of views rather than to reach decisions of policy. But those talks demonstrated the importance and the value of close Commonwealth co-operation. We found there was very considerable agreement on many topics; in particular, on the importance of restoring the central gold and dollar reserves. The results were, in fact, very satisfactory.

There was also another important Commonwealth meeting, and that was the meeting of the Commonwealth Consultative Committee of South and South-East Asia. That took place in London at the end of September, and was really the sequel to the preparatory meetings in Colombo and Sydney where what we hope will become known as the Colombo Plan was being hammered out. That provides a programme for the development and technical needs of the Commonwealth countries in the area. It was attended by Ministers from Australia, Canada, Ceylon, India, New Zealand and Pakistan and by representatives of the Federation of Malaya and Singapore; and we were also glad to associate with these discussions representatives from Thailand and the Associated States of Cambodia, Laos and Viet-Nam and observers from Burma and Indonesia.

I hope that a detailed report will be published shortly, but I think that everybody realises how vitally important it is in the interests of peace that there should 36 be economic developments in South-East Asia so that we may raise the standard of life of peoples whose standard of living is low and who, through their low standard, may easily become the prey of Communist agitation. Similarly there is the matter of colonial development. The House will have noticed that it is proposed to introduce a Bill to increase the funds of the Colonial Development Corporation. A great many schemes have been started. They will come to fruition in a few years, and it is important that that work should be carried on.

I would now like to turn to our general economic position, but before doing so, I would say that I think this House and the country have sustained a great loss in the temporary retirement of Sir Stafford Cripps. He brought to his very heavy tasks tremendous ability and devotion. He had a handicap of ill-health which constantly pursued him, and I think that he habitually overworked. While a Prime Minister may spur a laggard Minister, it is an extremely difficult task to prevent a Minister from overworking himself; and I think that Sir Stafford Cripps habitually overworked to the uttermost. I am looking forward to his return in due course, to be of further service to his country and also to the party in whose tenets he believes.

No one can question the fact that in the last year this country has achieved a most notable economic recovery. The gold reserves in the sterling area have doubled. I agree that they are still far too low in relation to the calls that may be made upon them, because we are the centre of the greatest trading association of countries in the world, and strict dollar economy continues to be necessary. But sterling today is a much stronger currency, and in the case of the United Kingdom itself there has been substantial progress. In the first six months of this year we had a small surplus in our overseas balance of payments. It is never wise to bank too much on short-term increases of this kind. There are obviously grave difficulties ahead, and we have heavy economic and financial commitments to fulfill. But the economic position has altered and, therefore, as a result of an exchange of views, it has been agreed with the United States Government to review the question of Marshall Aid to the United Kingdom in the light of all the 37 relevant factors; and talks will shortly take place.

This notable recovery, which has shown itself particularly in the improvement in our external position, has been primarily due to the continued and rapid increase in production which has increased above all our expectations. I was glad that the mover and seconder of the Address alluded to the efforts which have been made by employers and employed in the great industrial organisations in their respective constituencies—a point which is sometimes overlooked by other speakers. This increase has enabled us to continue our plans at home and expand considerably our rate of exports. But we are bound in future to see some check on the rate of our recovery. This will be imposed by the needs of our defence programme.

There is the direct sacrifice to be borne as a result of a considerable additional expenditure on armaments and there is also the effect of additional expenditure in other countries, which has led to a serious rise in the price of our imports, and that inevitably affects the cost of living, about which I shall have something to say shortly. We must expect to find the supply of raw materials more difficult as a result of rising consumption in many parts of the world. We are making, and we shall make, every effort to minimise the effect of these developments, but it is quite evident that the whole of our economic position and the contribution which we can make to our common objectives depend on our being able to maintain the growth of production on which our recovery has been based. It is still necessary to observe restraint in personal incomes; there is still need for economy and there is need for wise spending.

Obviously, in these circumstances, essential controls must be maintained. I am quite sure that any Government would find it necessary to do that in the world position we have to face today. For that reason it is proposed to introduce legislation to give the Government powers as stated, to regulate production, distribution and consumption and to control prices. As I understood the general tenor of the Debate the other day, it was that this kind of thing should not be carried on by the 38 hangovers of Defence Regulations, renewed from year to year. I thought it was rather the general idea that there ought to be legislation which would define the position quite clearly. The House would be able to control it. There was a general desire that there should be permanent legislation, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman did not notice that. The Bill will be introduced and, when it is introduced, the right hon. Gentleman will see exactly what it contains.

§ Mr. Douglas Marshall (Bodmin)

When?

§ The Prime Minister

It is not usual to give an exact time-table of when all the Bills will be introduced. There is an extraordinary desire for time-tables on the other side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman wants to know the date of the election. We really cannot give him an exact almanac of all these things. If I were to make a statement of that kind I should be taken to task by other hon. Members who would say, "What right have you to make that statement?"

§ Mr. Henry Strauss (Norwich, South)

I think the right hon. Gentleman is passing to another subject. May I put this question to him? If he attaches such great importance to this legislation to make these regulations permanent, why was it not mentioned at the last election in his party's election manifesto?

§ The Prime Minister

I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will find that it was in a statement called "Labour Believes in Britain," but we have already debated this matter of the temporary regulations and, as I understand it, there was a general idea that it was a mistake to carry on war-time Defence Regulations and that it would be better to have permanent legislation. Anyway, the right hon. Gentleman can wait and see, as his old leader used to say—but perhaps I ought not to allude to those old days when he was in another party.

As a matter of fact, it is a step that any Government would have to take. The Government must have the necessary power if it wants to carry out the policy of full employment, including the avoidance of inflation, and it must surely be agreed that there is no likelihood in the present condition of the world, of these powers not being needed. It is awkward 39 to have these powers contained in a number of regulations left over from the war and, while their application in practice has been adapted to meet present circumstances, their statutory basis has not. What we need is to define their purpose and to lay down the appropriate safeguards.

The whole question of prices and the cost of living resulting therefrom has been raised. The right hon. Gentleman said, quite properly, that there were matters which we cannot control. There is the enormous increase in prices of certain primary products. It is our desire to keep the cost of living as stable as possible. The actual prices of foodstuffs have not increased in the last six months; the index figure is much the same.

§ Mr. Osborne (Louth)

It is a false figure.

§ The Prime Minister

I did not hear the hon. Member.

§ Mr. Osborne

I think the Prime Minister would agree that the index figure is a very unsatisfactory one and that the figure given by the Ministry of Labour, showing a fall in prices, has not been well received by the trade unions.

§ The Prime Minister

I agree that all index figures are unsatisfactory as a basis.

§ Mr. Osborne

That is what I said.

§ The Prime Minister

I am agreeing with the hon. Member. But they do give a measure of the change over a period of time. I was comparing six months with six months, using the same measuring rod, so that the hon. Member's interruption was not very pertinent.

We all wish to keep down prices, and one of the things which has kept prices more stable than otherwise they would have been is the £400 million provided in the Budget in the way of food subsidies. I do not know whether that is still supported by hon. Members opposite, or whether it is opposed. There is, however, a limit to what can be done. The right hon. Gentleman quoted the figures—he is very fond of quoting them—of what the pound is worth now and what it was worth so many years ago. One of my hon. Friends overheard a conversation in a train recently. Two old ladies were travelling, and one of them 40 said, "I remember the time when one could travel this distance and the fare was only 10d. It is now 1s. 2d." The other said, "Yes, I remember that, but it was a funny thing—I never had more than 4d. in my pocket at that time."

Meanwhile, while we are endeavouring to do all we can to control prices, within what is possible, we are also endeavouring to promote more home production. Among matters which we are bringing forward, to which the right hon. Gentleman alluded, is the fulfilment of the promise we gave to the House of legislation on the white fish industry. A body of members have been appointed under the chairmanship of Admiral Sir Robert Burnett, as members-designate of the proposed authority. They have been getting to work, going round the ports and seeing fishermen and other people in the industry, and they have had an extremely good reception. I would also add that a Scottish Committee has been set up under the chairmanship of the vice-chairman designate, Mr. Yeaman. Hon. Members have shown great interest in the question of the poaching of salmon. I understand that this is a kind of wholesale commercial poaching which does not really create any sympathy in anybody, as the old-time poacher was rather apt to do.

Next, there is the legislation on the British Sugar Corporation, which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think had been brought in for the purpose of fomenting the difference between the parties. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks that is done only on one side. The right hon. Gentleman is always suggesting that we are all in beautiful agreement, but I have never heard him make a speech without denouncing those on this side of the House quite heartily and full-bloodedly, and it is only by way of a preliminary to giving us a kick that he throws out this idea of national unity and all the rest of it. As a matter of fact, the British Sugar Bill is needed because present legislation comes to an end. There is a curious anomaly here—there is private capital which is not at risk, but which has a guaranteed reasonable rate of interest in a corporation which is the result of the policy of successive Governments of festering the sugar beet industry of this country. It is, therefore, the reasonable thing to do to take advantage of the 41 position in order to put this on a proper basis.

We are not neglecting the amenities. There is the restoration of land devastated by ironstone mining and there is river pollution.

I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman referred to an interesting Bill on leasehold reform. That is a very difficult subject. There are conflicting equities in the matter and, as the House knows, there have been Reports and the signatories did not wholly agree. We are at work preparing long-term legislation, but, there are very serious grievances, particularly in South Wales and in Lanarkshire, where there are a number of people whose forebears built their houses and who, at present, are finding that all these long leases are falling in. We are proposing a temporary standstill Bill dealing with residential ground leases and with shops.

Now I come to deal with the observations of the right hon. Gentleman. They were, none of them, very specially relevant to the matter of the Gracious Speech from the Throne. They were by way of bringing out various points which we had already heard before, as, for instance, that almost everything being done was thought about by the right hon. Gentleman and started by him. The right hon. Gentleman made quotations from past writings of myself and my right hon. Friends. We have a great advantage over the right hon. Gentleman because, on almost any subject if we look back on his long and varied history, we find something that we can quote against him.

He came down finally on the question of housing. We consider that the 200,000 houses a year is an actual programme, a programme which is being carried out, and it is as nearly as possible the number of good houses which can be built with the available resources of labour and materials, without disregarding other important claims—export claims and other capital developments.

The right hon. Gentleman hopes to have a Debate on this matter. We shall welcome it. I hope that, if the right hon. Gentleman intends to take part in it, he will inform himself a little more on the economics of the subject. Houses are not just built by money. The right hon. Gentleman says, "Oh, there is so much money." The question is how much we 42 can afford out of the labour, the materials and the rest of it available in the country. It the right hon. Gentleman were in charge of the Government, he would have to weigh that claim against the claims of the export trade, against the claims of defence and against the claims of capital development of one kind or another. He would not look at it purely as if it was a matter of saying that there is so much money. He really did not seem to me to grasp the position. However, if he likes to move an Amendment on this matter, I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health will be delighted to answer him. I am quite sure that he will wipe the floor with him, as he has on every other occasion.

The right hon. Gentleman finally came to various electoral questions. I do not propose to deal with these matters now. I never understood that it was the duty of a Prime Minister to tell the Leader of the Opposition, a long time ahead, that there was going to be an election, or that he ought to decide now without considering all the conditions and possible changes. Really, the right hon. Gentleman seems to be getting so very impatient. He does not seem to like to have so many people behind him, because he was quite happy for five years, and now, because he has a large number of Members behind him, he feels that it is very disturbing and very awkward.

I notice that while he does not like the ranging of two parties closely together—he seems to want a little more play—he is still doing a very assiduous wooing of the independent Liberal Party. I note that, according to the papers, in Lancashire some marriages have been arranged and will shortly take place between Conservative and Liberal organisations. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman would like time for these unions to be consummated.

It is unusual, in a Debate on the King's Speech, to have the right hon. Gentleman opposite expressing those views. I am not prepared to enlighten hint at the moment. It is a matter that has to be considered very carefully in the light of the Parliamentary position, the national position and everything else. If the right hon. Gentleman likes to say. "We do not want an election for months and months, so you can disregard any little by-play we 43 have here with regard to calling up troops to try to beat you in a Division," that, of course, is a matter for him.

§ Mr. Daines (East Ham, North)

I want to direct the House back to the most important question of today—the rise in the cost of living. The pre-election atmosphere of the speech of the Leader of the Opposition has added little to this problem. We well understand that the Leader of the Opposition has made up his mind that he wants to go to Downing Street before he goes to Westminster Abbey, but the public of this country, the ordinary people, will not be so much interested in the frustrated ambitions of the Leader of the Opposition as they are in the cost of living.

They are terribly concerned about the rise in the cost of living and I think, too, that the ordinary people are alert enough to understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and his friends are more concerned with making political capital out of the present situation than with offering any real advice on or solutions for it. Undoubtedly, the cost of living increases come from two main sources. One of those sources is the devaluation of the £ against the dollar. The rise in the price of primary products and food shows this. I do not want to weary the House with statistics. They are on the records and they can be examined by all hon. Members.

But if we have to choose between a return to mass unemployment, which undoubtedly would come if we did not balance our external trade budget, and depreciation of the £ as against the dollar, then we will certainly choose depreciation. We recognise that the effect of it is bound to be a rise in prices. It was a question, as I saw it, and as I think most ordinary people saw it, of a choice between the two. It seems to me that the gap that we used to hear so much about has been transferred from the dollar sphere to the gap between prices and spending income.

I do not find it a particularly elevating spectacle that the Opposition, who bring such terrific pressure to bear on the question of rearmament, should at the same time choose to make all the party capital they possibly can out of the consequences 44 of rearmament which are bound to result in an increase in prices. In passing, it seems to me that their policy, so far as the international situation is concerned, is far more on the lines of a white man's shooting war than it is on the lines of economic rehabilitation that prevents war.

It is rather interesting to notice that we are also beginning to see in connection with the activities of the Opposition in the country, and particularly as revealed by the spectacle at Blackpool recently, a type of cheap propaganda in regard to food subsidies, in which they pick out an aspect which they think will appeal to the illiterate electorate. They are now asking why millionaires should receive food subsidies. It seems to me that the Opposition are not really worrying about millionaires receiving food subsidies, but that they are really far more concerned about the taxation which the millionaire has to pay so that we may all have food subsidies.

I should like to remind my right hon. Friend the Minister of Food of some of the speeches that he made about 12 months ago on the rise in the cost of living. I do not want to spend too much time on the particular aspect of food, but I can assure the Minister that he will draw considerable inspiration from the speeches which he made at that time, and I think he will feel refreshed by them in tackling his present problems.

I have found recently at many meetings amongst my own people—and I have been doing three or four meetings a week—that, if I tried to quote to ordinary people the cost of living index figures, they regarded them as quite unreal. Whatever my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister may say, among the ordinary people—and they are politically intelligent people—I found that I was quite incapable of convincing them that the cost of living index is a true reflection of present-day prices. I think we have to face that fact.

I have found that ordinary people are very concerned about what is happening today, and particularly in connection with greengrocery. It is no good our talking in London School of Economics abstractions; it would be far better to talk in the ordinary terms which the people understand. Let me quote from the "Evening Standard" of last Friday, 27th October, This is what their reporter said, and I know that it is only too terribly true. He 45 found that, when he went into the markets, he could buy a case of 11 fine big cabbages for 1s., but that, when he went round the corner to a retail shop, the same cabbages were on sale at 3d. and 4d. a pound.

It is indeed a very hard job to convince the ordinary people of the country that something could not be done about that, or, again, that nothing can be done where an ordinary orange, comparable in quality with other oranges, may be sold in Kingston for 1d., while the same orange in the West End of London is being sold for 7d. One cannot explain this kind of problem to ordinary people by dealing in abstractions, and I would have preferred the Government to have given us some indication in the Gracious Speech that they were going to tackle th