Order for Second Reading read.

3.50 p.m.

The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs)

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

In asking the House to give a Second Reading to this Bill, I propose, briefly, to explain the need for it, and then to go, in a little more detail, into the methods and conditions set out in the Bill itself. Primarily, the need for the Bill arises from the fact that the regular components of our Forces have seriously run down, owing to the fact that there has been no regular recruitment during the war. At the moment we are faced with the position that the number of men in the Army, serving under a regular term of enlistment, is something a little over 100,000—probably 110,000, or somewhere in the region of that figure. In the regular Air Force the number of regular Servicemen is now down below 70,000. In both cases, those figures contain a large number of men who will shortly be coming to the end of their engagement, and unless some steps are taken to fill up those gaps. we shall find ourselves in a very difficult position. In the Royal Navy the position is, admittedly, much better; but even so, it is not satisfactory. In the Navy there were regular Service intakes during the war, and voluntary recruiting has been a little more successful.

Some time back the Government realised that there would be this probable shortage, and they embarked upon an extensive recruiting campaign, by a periodical Press campaign, by advertisements in the Press, and, in many cases, by the support of hon. Members of this House in making appeals to their constituents. Results in recent months have shown an improvement, but they have been by no means all that we should desire. For example, in the three months to January of this year the volunteer intake into the Forces was 22,349, compared with 13,298 which we had in the three months up to June. But even that improvement, welcome as it is, is in- sufficient to meet the need, and to build our Forces up even to their prewar strength. The position which confronts the Government is, that unless we can continue the present arrangements for the call-up of men, the regular element in the Services is likely to be insufficient to meet even a fraction of our minimum defence requirements. Therefore, if the defence Forces are to be maintained in a sufficient state to enable the defence of the country to be undertaken, should it be necessary, we must have a Bill of this kind. It is the view of the Government, quite definitely, that that gap can only be met by a scheme of National Service. The voluntary scheme has not proved sufficiently effective, despite the attractions of improved conditions, and the prospects of advancement that are open to the voluntary Serviceman now as compared with before the war. That is not sufficient to encourage the enlistment of the number of men that are required.

There is, however, a second reason, and that is the need for the nation to build up efficient, well-trained reserve and auxiliary Forces. We must maintain a reasonable state of preparedness in case we should be engaged in a future war. I am sure it is the very sincere and earnest hope of every one of our people that we may not be faced with a future war. There is no idea and no intention in the mind of any of our folk to engage in a fight with anybody. On the other hand, somebody may want to have a fight with us—we do not know. For that reason we have to be prepared to stand our ground, and to defend our country and the principles in which we believe. If our Armed Forces are to be capable of operating efficiently at the beginning of an emergency they must be backed up with efficient and adequate reserve Forces; otherwise, all that we shall be doing will be saying to the volunteer force, which is inadequate to meet the strain: "You go into battle. We will sacrifice you, and will wait a few more months while we train the others that are to come on." We think it is absolutely essential that we should have efficient and well-trained reserves to enable those necessary requirements to be faced. We do not think it is possible to get that reserve by purely voluntary service. Now, before the war the Territorial Forces were staffed with a number of enthusiastic men, who were willing to give their spare time to train for the defence of the country. But the training that can be given under those circumstances does not produce a sufficiently efficient individual to take full part in the defence of his country, and, in all probability, not sufficiently well trained to look after his own personal defence.

Air Commodore Harvey (Macclesfield)

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that the Battle of Britain pilots, who trained in the Auxiliary Air Force, did not play their part when the war came?

Mr. Isaacs

It is most unreasonable for the hon. and gallant Member to try to put into my mind any such thought or suggestion. I think that everyone of our people, who so willingly responded in the war when they had the clarion call from the then Prime Minister, deserves credit for the way they devoted themselves to the job. To pick out any one as against another, and to try to draw a distinction between them, is not reasonable or fair. Even the "footslogger" did his bit, with the training he had—[HON. MEMBERS: "'Even'?"]—Some hon. Members opposite seem to be anxious to pick up a word here and there, and to make something out of it. Perhaps I might go back to what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that everyone of those people who volunteered for any kind of service did his best. But those people could not do as well as they might have done, because they did not have the facilities for full and complete training, which we hope they will get under this Bill. This is no time to draw distinctions between one and the other. We have to bear in mind that the training required for our Forces today is a much different training from which was required before the outbreak of the war which has just closed: there are new weapons; scientific weapons of different kinds; technical developments of all sorts, which require a very complete training to enable a man to be efficient at his particular job, and we cannot rely upon that kind of training being given after an emergency has arisen. On that matter, in relation to emergency and the need for speed in action I will, if I may, quote to the House, if they will be considerate enough to listen, a passage from the Prime Minister's speech on the Loyal Address on 12th November last, which I think clearly sets out the Government's point of view. My right hon. Friend then said: First of all, the development of modern warfare has made this country more vulner- able. We are now part of the Continent. We can be reached by attack from the Continent. While in the past we always had a long breathing space on which we could depend, that breathing space is most unlikely to be available should any war arise in the future. The logic of that is that while we keep our front line forces as low as we can consonant with efficiency and the jobs they have to do, we must have trained reserves who can take their part right away without waiting for six months' training."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November, 1946; Vol. 430, C. 40.] We consider that compulsory National Service is not only necessary to ensure speed, but is also the most democratic way of providing the Forces required. In the old days, between the wars and before the wars, recruiting statistics show that we had a greater intake into the Army in days of serious unemployment, when men turned to that kind of opportunity of getting their livelihood, when no other means were open to them. We think today, that the responsibility, the duty—I think one might almost say the privilege—of taking part in the defence of our country should be spread over the whole of our young men, irrespective of their class or their occupation; they should all come along and play their part in this service. We consider it is a national duty that everyone, when required, should come to the defence of their country, and individuals should give sufficient time to making themselves competent to undertake that duty.

This Bill provides a method for carrying out that duty. It amends the existing National Service laws. It is an amending Bill. It provides for continuous compulsory military service from 1st January, 1949. I will explain the detailed changes as between the existing laws and this Bill a little later. I want to emphasise, first of all, that all the existing safeguards for personal hardship cases, for conscientious objectors and all the other reasonable requirements for postponement and deferment, have been maintained, and in some cases have been slightly extended. These arrangements worked exceedingly well during the war. There may, of course, have been cases where somebody did not get a postponement, who thought he should have got it, but in general their work gave satisfaction as fair and reasonable and we consider that the hardship committees and conscientious objectors' tribunals and other similar bodies for dealing with these cases should continue to take part in the administration of these provisions, as they have done in the past.

Until 1st January, 1949, men will be called up under the existing arrangements set out in detail in Command Paper 6831 under the title, "Call up to the Forces in 1947 and 1948." Under these arrangements, young men called up during this year will serve for two years, and those called up from the beginning of next year will serve a gradually shorter period, the period of service being reduced, so that those called up at the end of the year will serve 18 months, thus bringing them into line with what the Bill provides. This Bill provides that the National Service Acts shall cease to have effect on 1st January, 1954, unless a later date is fixed by Order in Council. In other words, this new Bill means that military service for the nation will continue to exist for five years definitely, but can be extended by Orders in Council. Such Orders in Council must have the consent of both Houses of Parliament. That means that young men who have not reached the age of 18 by 1st January, 1954, or any later date, will not be liable to be called up, but that at that date, the liability at once disappears. But it must be clear that there must be some men called up just before that date, who will then be in the Services, who will have to continue their service, although the period of it will not end until after the date on which compulsory enrolment has expired. Parliament itself will have complete control over the extension or otherwise of this liability to service; it will be for Parliament to determine it, as it seems necessary in the light of the circumstances existing at that time.

Now as to what we may call the field of the call-up. The Bill gives authority to call up young men between the ages of 18 and 26; but I must make it clear at once that the usual call-up age will be the age of 18, and that the extra age limit is put in—for the purpose that I will explain a little later on—so as to give facilities to the Ministry for making deferments and postponements. The total period of service is seven years, 18 months' full time service with the Forces, and five and a half years with the Reserve Services. Under the present Acts, men up to the age of 46 are liable; and their liability to serve, when called up, is until the end of the present emergency; and that is to be fixed by some date. But under the Bill men will be called up definitely for the stated period of 18 months. Therefore, they will know, once they leave their civil employments or student courses, that they are going in for a fixed and definite period.

Primarily, the reason for the 18 months' full-time service is determined by two factors. First, there must be an adequate period of initial training. That is not to say that the full 18 months will be taken up by training. Many of the Forces, or sections of the Forces, may be able to complete sufficient training by the end of 12 months, and the young men may then do a bit of soldiering Men may finish training, and then go to do garrison duty or some other work to take the place of some of the men coming out at the end of their normal time of service. Whilst the period of 18 months may not be required for complete training, it is required for service. Secondly, it is necessary to have a marginal period so that extensive training may be given and the fullest opportunity taken of the time in which the Services have the young men at their disposal. But it has to be borne in mind that this, in itself, will bring about an added demand upon the normal full-time soldier because it will be regular components of the Forces who will have to undertake the training of the young men coming in; and, therefore, there will be less men available in the active lines should any requirements arise for their services.

I should like to mention here that the Government are not using the word "conscript" in this Bill. We are referring to these young men as "national service men." There are many who prefer to think they will be coming in to do their service willingly, although called upon, and who do not like the connotation of the word "conscript" and its reference, not to circumstances in this country, but to circumstances in which others have used it, and which have become associated with the word. I make that point for what it may be worth.

I want to refer to one or two other factors. We hope that it may be possible—as I shall explain, there is power in the Bill—to shorten the period of service. There are two ways in which that may be achieved. First, we may find that the campaign to attract young men will be more successful than it has beep. Many of the young men called up to do their 18 months' service may find the Services so attractive to them that they may desire to continue in them, and to continue for a fixed period longer than their 18 months. Secondly, our overseas defence commitments may be so changed that to make it unnecessary for us to have the Forces which we now think are going to be necessary; but this is too indefinite for the Government to assume for the purposes of national planning. Therefore, there is power in the Bill, in Clause 1 (1, a), for the Government, by Order in Council, to reduce the initial period of the 18 months' whole time service; and I have authority to say, that at the earliest opportunity at which this is found to be practicable it will be done. It must be borne in mind that there may be cases in which a man may find himself called upon to serve more than the 18 months period. It will be entirely his own fault if he does; if a man deserts, or is absent without leave any time, he will be called upon to make good that time of absence by continuing his service after the 18 months have passed.

There is also power in the Bill to reduce the period of 18 months in certain cases. It will be used for exceptional purposes. For example, we are informed by the Royal Air Force that a man being trained as one of an air-crew, may reach a certain part of his training at the end of 12 months, and that the time left to him is not sufficient for him to go right through the next stage; and that it might be better to release him, and to carry on with his part-time training, at the end of 12 months. We have taken power in the Bill to allow that, should it be necessary; but if a national service man is released for any of these reasons from full time service before the 18 months expire, he will be expected to make good that time by a little extra time in the part time service training programme, and so to make up, to some extent, the full time lost.

The age for calling up is 18 years, but there is provision to allow young men who apply to be called up earlier, but not earlier than the age of 17 years and six months. The provision is made quite deliberately, so that young men going up to a university, or to some other training course, may choose to be called up a little earlier, enabling them to come out of the Forces a little earlier in time than if they had waited until they were 18 to be called up; and in time to start their university or other scholastic careers. It may be a very hard thing indeed for a young fellow in certain circumstances to be called up one year after starting his scholastic work, and finds himself pushed back and he may prefer to do his service first. There is a similar slight variation with regard to doctors and dentists. In normal circumstances, doctors and dentists will find themselves called up round about the age of 25; but there will be many in the field of call-up, who are taking specialist courses and want to become specialists in one branch of their profession; and when an individual requests that it should be done, his call-up may be postponed, and he will be liable to be called up, up to the age of 29. That has been done to meet the needs of the professions, so that men will get their additional training. At the same time, it is an advantage to the Services, because they will have within their ranks men with higher qualifications to assist in the professional work of the doctors and dentists in the Forces.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay (Combined English Universities)

Has the Minister any idea of the spread as between the ages of 17½ and 26? For instance, does he imagine that 20 per cent. or 30 per cent. will opt at 17½?

Mr. Isaacs

I could not say without notice, but I will endeavour to get the information for the hon. Gentleman if he wants to use it in the Debate. We think that a young man of 17½ is physically not so different from the young man of 18. I should like to mention the question of deferment. By having the field of call-up ranging from the age of 18 to that of 26, with the normal intention of calling up at 18, we have a long field in which to plan deferments. But this must be said right at the outset, that it is the intention of the Government under this Bill that all young men liable and medically fit shall serve their time in the Forces—all of them, with the exception which I shall explain and of which the House has already been informed. We are anxious not to interrupt training, whether for the professions or for the arts or for industry, or whatever it may be, and, therefore, the option is given to the young man to defer being called up until his apprenticeship or training has been completed. Therefore, a student going to the university, or a young man going to an apprenticeship in industry, can decide whether he will do his service, and get it over and done with, or whether he will continue his training and do his service afterwards.

That will be his option, but this is being tied up with one or two very stringent provisions. First, a young man will have to satisfy the district manpower boards or the recruitment committees that there is a genuine and satisfactory learnership, studentship or apprenticeship in operation. It must be genuine. It is not going to be allowed, that a firm finding that their young men are to be called up, suddenly rushes to get indenture forms for them. The apprenticeship must be in existence at or before the time of call-up, and must be a satisfactory apprenticeship. I can speak only of experience in my own industry. I have known of a case of a printer in South London with six young lads as apprentice compositors. He had drawn a premium of £25 from each of them, yet after their apprenticeships, they did not know enough even to print a winkle bag, let alone get a job in the trade. That is going to stop. The manpower board has to be satisfied that the apprenticeship is a genuine apprenticeship.

I ask the House to see the great advantage in this, in that it should, in fact, encourage genuine systems of apprenticeship to be developed throughout the country, and end the haphazard methods of teaching that have developed. There must be a genuine and satisfactory studentship, apprenticeship, or learner-ship in existence. With the exception of underground miners, no deferment will be allowed on industrial grounds—deferments will be allowed on other grounds, as I have explained—but the Government have recently announced that underground coalminers will not be called up to the Forces for the next five years. Young men already engaged as underground coalminers, when they become due for call-up, will have their call-up deferred as long as they remain underground coal-miners. By this means we are protecting that very important industry at the moment from the loss of its manpower. It is not intended that there shall be industrial deferment in any other industry.

There is, then, the question of postponement of liability to serve in the Forces. Postponement has existed under the Acts now in force. It rested on exceptional hardship, and so on. I think the Hardship Committees, in the main, have done their work exceedingly well. There is every reason to believe that they will do just as well under this Bill, when it becomes an Act. Unless a certificate of postponement is granted by the Minister, the matter will be referred to a Military Service Hardship Committee, and there will be a right of appeal allowed from the decision of that committee. The appeal can be made either by the Minister or by the applicant against the decision of the committee, and the matter can be taken to an umpire. I must point out that, where a postponement has been given in that way, that postponement does not itself automatically exempt the person from serving, or allow him to pass out of the field of service, because should he reach the age of 25, when he would normally pass out of the field of call-up, and the hardship qualification should disappear, as it might easily do, he would still be liable to do his service. In other words, opportunities will not be made so easy that some form of postponement can be continued from month to month, enabling complete evasion, unless there is absolute need for it.

Mr. Stephen (Glasgow, Camlachie)

Up to what age?

Mr. Isaacs

The age of call-up, 18 to 26.

Mr. Stephen

The right hon. Gentleman said that if a person received a postponement right up to the age of 26, he might be called on after 26 for service. Up to what age? Might it be 30?

Mr. Isaacs

It is difficult for me to give specific answers on detailed points at this stage. If, when he reaches the age of 26, and the condition justifying postponement still exists, it seems to me that further postponement will be granted, and he will not be called up immediately. From what we have seen of these cases, they are most likely to be cases of students at universities who, because of failure to pass an examination, have had to continue on a little longer and have not come out until they reached the age at which they would pass out. This is only a safeguard to make sure that nobody will manoeuvre the postponement opportunites in such a way as to evade the service which it is felt should be given.

Mr. Wilson Harris (Cambridge University)

I would like to put one question about universities. Is deferment optional for any undergraduate, or only for scholarship holders or persons of a certain standard?

Mr. Isaacs

The option will be for any person. Any person going through any kind of tuition—university, industry, law, and so on, where there is a genuine contract of training of some sort—has a right to ask for the deferment of his call-up. It is made as wide as possible so as not to interfere with training. I would like now to say something about part-time service. At the end of 18 months, the men who have served will go into a Reserve. In the Royal Navy they will go into the Royal Naval Special Reserve, which is being created for this purpose. If they serve in the Army, they will go into the Territorial Army, or the Army Reserve. If they are in the Royal Air Force, they will go into the Air Force Reserve. Power has been taken in the Bill to transfer men from one of those Reserves to another, and there are four main reasons why that is done. It can be done either by the Forces themselves or at the man's request. The main reasons are as follow:

First, a man may have obtained during his part-time service knowledge, capacity and efficiency that would make him more useful in another branch of the Services. May I give as an example a man who may have served in the Army and who, on coming out of the service in the Army, has worked in an aircraft factory and become an expert aircraft fitter; it might be of advantage, therefore, to transfer him from the Army Reserve to the Air Force Reserve. It is that sort of thing which makes it desirable for this power to exist. Secondly, there may reasonably be a change in the balance of the various Forces. One might find that one Force had far more men than might be needed, and another Force fewer men. In that case, it would be desirable to have powers to make transfers. Thirdly, a man may live in another area. He may have been living on the sea coast and have been in the Royal Naval Reserve. He might then go far inland where there were apportunities for him to have training in some other branch of the Reserve. Fourthly, a man might, for personal reasons, wish to change from one Reserve to another; it might suit his convenience to do so because of the location of his residence, his employment, and so forth. We are taking power to permit that sort of thing.

The period of overall service is seven years—18 months full service, and five and a half years part-time service. That part-time service also may be extended in the case of men who have deserted or failed to fulfil their obligations, and who will be expected to continue in service. Part-time service has been devised in a form which it is hoped will cause the least possible interference with industry. In the five and a half years a man will be required to do 60 days, and he cannot be compelled to do more than 21 days in any one year. It is also intended, although this may not be specifically mentioned in the Bill, that there will be conversations with industries with a view to arranging the best periods of the year in which the training can, take place so as to provide the very minimum of interference with industry. A man will have a call-up notice giving him 30 days' notice of being called up for his Reserve training. It is possible that, having come out of the Forces after 18 months, he may not be called upon to do any part-time service perhaps until a year or so has elapsed, but the maximum period of 60 days remains absolutely fixed. An attempt is being made to interfere as little as possible with industry and with the ordinary domestic conveniences of the Service man by allowing him to commute each day by a number of hours of evening attendance. Four periods of one hour's attendance, or two evenings of two hours, will be equal to a full day's training. In other words, it is the introduction of a four hour day for part-time trained men. The Services will make arrangements by regulations to cover that.

It must be pointed out also that if a man wishes to do so, he can volunteer to do his part-time training in the Volunteer Reserve, but it is clear that if a man volunteers to do his Reserve service in the voluntary section, he does not escape the liability of being required to do 60 days' training, towards which he may not count more than 15 days in any one year. If that provision were not there, it would be possible for a man who volunteered under contract to give voluntary service for, say, for four years, to put in more than his 60 days in the first two years, to draw his gratuity, and then to stay away and avoid further service. The main purpose of the Reserve is not only to keep the men's training as far as possible up to pitch, but to have the men available should it be necessary. Therefore, voluntary service in the Volunteer Reserve does not allow a man to evade whole-time service as such in the ordinary Reserve.

Mr. Christopher Shawcross (Widnes)

Can my right hon. Friend give an estimate of how many men will be in uniform when this scheme is in full operation, say, in five years' time? How many will be in uniform at any given time, allowing for those who are to be exempted, and so on?

Mr. Isaacs

I could not give a figure at this moment, but I will get a figure. I would like to know what my hon. Friend means when he says "in uniform." Does he mean those who are serving 18 months, or men in the Reserve?

Mr. Shawcross

Those who are in the Reserve and others, excluding those in regular service.

Mr. Isaacs

I will see whether those figures can be obtained. I want now to speak about reinstatement in civilian employment. The Re-instatement in Civil Employment Act, 1944, when one considers that four million men and women have come out of the Forces, has worked with amazing satisfaction. It is true that there have been a number of difficult cases, but they have been a ridiculously small percentage of the whole. Therefore, we propose to continue those arrangements, but with the following slight change. Under the existing Act, however short the employment was, the employer has to reinstate the man for not less than 26 weeks. If he has been in employment for more than 52 weeks, the employer has to guarantee reinstatement for 52 weeks. Owing to the changes in the period of service, and so on, the following alterations are proposed—that if the employment was for less than 13 weeks, reinstatement should be guaranteed for 13 weeks; if employment was for more than 13 weeks, but less than 52 weeks, the reinstatement must be guaranteed for 26 weeks, and then, as before, if employment was for over 52 weeks, the reinstatement should go on for 52 weeks.

Under the Act as at present, the employer has an obligation to reinstate a man only if such reinstatement is reasonable and practicable. This necessary safe- guard will continue. I know that some of my hon. Friends will wonder how a lawyer might interpret "reasonable and practicable," but it has given rise to little difficulty, for out of four million people who have come out of the Forces, the vast majority have been re-employed, and where the term "reasonable and practicable" has been referred to the various tribunals, in the main the matter has been settled satisfactorily. We propose to continue the machinery which has proved satisfactory.

There is one other minor change. Under the existing Act, an employer is not under an obligation to reinstate a man after six months have elapsed after the end of the present emergency. Obviously, that condition will have to be changed. Therefore, the employer will not be under an obligation to reinstate a man after six months from the end of his whole-time service. In each particular case, the liability remains on the employer to reinstate the man for the six months after the man comes out of the Forces. Under the Reinstatement Act, volunteers who volunteered for the Forces have the same right of reinstatement as men called up and sent compulsorily into the Forces. This Bill preserves that right for the volunteers who joined under the old Act. Under the new Bill, as volunteers who volunteer for the Forces will probably serve five, seven or even more years, it is not felt reasonable to compel an employer to take back a man after he has been away for seven years, and who volunteered to go away, as against a man who was called up only for a limited period. There is that change in the Bill.

There is a slight change in the period in which a man must apply for his reinstatement in civilian employment. Under the old Act, he had to make his application on the fifth Monday after his release and to be available for employment on the ninth Monday. Under this Bill, he has to make his application on the second Monday and to be available for employment on the fourth Monday. It is obvious that there is a reason for that. Under the old Act men have eight weeks' demobilisation leave; under the Bill a man will get from 18 to 24 days according to the length of their service. They will have the option of enjoying that leave without losing their right of reinstatement.

Another slight change will be necessary for we have to pay attention to the reemployment of men who have been called up for part-time training. We do not wish to see growing up an opportunity for employers to say that they will not take men back because of the operation of the Bill. There will be sufficient safeguards against that happening. A man will have the right to go back to his job after his part-time training. If there is any question about a man not being reemployed, he can go to a reinstatement committee where the onus of proof will rest upon the employer. If I am asked about the penalty, it will be in some of the compensations to which the man will be entitled, according to the period involved.

Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne)

Can we have an example?

Mr. Isaacs

It might be a month's salary.

We are now entering a sphere in which other factors begin to operate. Tomorrow we shall have raised the school-leaving age, and we are coming into a field where more extensive educational facilities are open to the young people of our country. Therefore, it is intended that those who come into the Forces shall not lose the advantage of the extended education which they would have had, if they had been following their normal employment. The Services have made arrangements for such continued education and the Bill places a general duty upon them to do so. They will provide education, and the cost will be met out of the Service Estimates. Local education authorities will be asked to co-operate with them in carrying out the duty, but that authority will be relieved of the general obligation of finding facilities for the large number in the Forces who may happen to be in their area.

Finally, I would refer to the conscientious objector Clauses. The arrangements under which conscientious objectors may now be registered are three. One is unconditional exemption. The second is conditional exemption, upon the applicant's undertaking to do civilian employment. The third is non-combatant service. Those three forms of exemption will remain, with slight changes. As regards conditional exemption, the Minister may direct the objector to undertake work of the kind specified by the tribunal. It may be necessary for the objector to submit himself to medical examination in order that we can ascertain that he is fit for the work.

Professor Gruffydd (University of Wales)

Can the Minister tell us whether any provision is made for objectors who refuse to submit themselves to medical examination?

Mr. Isaacs

If a man is registered unconditionally he will be quite free, as he is now, and he will be out of the field of employment. There is one other condition. If a man had gone into the Army he would have served for 18 months and he would have been liable to serve 60 days in the reserve. As a conditionally registered objector, he will continue for 60 days beyond the 18 months, so that he will be called upon to give to the State exactly the same number of days as if he had gone into the Service.

Mr. Rankin (Glasgow, Tradeston)

The right hon. Gentleman has missed the point of the question put to him just now by the hon. Member for the University of Wales (Professor Gruffydd). What is to happen in the case of objectors who refuse to submit themselves to medical examination?

Mr. Isaacs

Exactly the same as has happened under the Acts which are in operation at the moment. The only changes that are being made in the conscientious objector arrangements are those which I have explained It is felt that they worked satisfactorily, generally speaking, during the war and they will continue now as then.

Mr. S. Silverman

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that under the Acts now in force, a man who conscientiously felt that it was wrong to submit himself for medical examination was punished again and again for what was, in fact, only one offence? Do I understand that it is proposed that that shall continue?

Mr. Isaacs

I want to make it clear, as I did try to do just now, that if that is the arrangement that operates now, the Bill does not make any charge in the arrangement. It may be that it is thought it ought to do so, and it may be that when the Committee stage comes these matters can be discussed and argued out. I want to make it clear to the House that there is no change in that arrangement.

I have nothing further to explain to the House. I would finish by saying that the Government believe the Bill is necessary. Otherwise, they would not have introduced it. They believe that it is fair to all. They think it is fair to the State and to industry, and fair to the men who have borne the heat and burden of the day in the last four or five years, that we should now try to carry on the work for which they have struggled. We think the terms of the Bill are reasonable and can be carried out without hardship upon the community. The Government also believe that the period of service is fair in existing conditions and that the period for which the Bill is intended to operate is appropriate in all the circumstances. For those reasons, and because we believe that the Bill is required and is fair, I ask the House to give it a Second Reading.

4.38 p.m.

Mr. Churchill (Woodford)

I think the House is indebted to the Minister of Labour for his extremely lucid and careful description of the Bill, and particularly for the attention he has given to points which cause anxiety here or there. He has evidently carefully mastered the details of the Measure and was able compendiously to give to the House a very full account of it.

On this occasion we support His Majesty's Government. We shall try to do so when they stand for national as apart from party interests and sectarian themes. We even go as far as to compliment them on the courage they have shown in resisting the subversive and de-generate elements in their midst—and elsewhere. Below the Gangway opposite, we see representatives of those conceptions and ideas which nearly brought us to ruin in the late war, and have gone far and are going further to pull us down after our victory. Therefore I congratulate the Government on standing up to them. It is always difficult for Ministers in contact with reality to resist those feckless and crack-pate elements to which they have pandered in their thirst for power, and on which they largely depend as a Government for their life and office. We shall vote with the Government on the Bill, on all occasions when they are challenged by the crypto-Communists and pacifists and other trends of Left-wing opinion, which they have exploited to the full in bygone days, and which they now very naturally and healthily resent.

The Minister of Defence has not made things easier by his aggressive speech the other night, when he went out of his way to attack us on this side of the House. Old and experienced politicians will understand his difficulties. We realise that he was trying to gather up in advance a little credit for his own party, for the work which he had to do for the country by showing how well he could be rude to the Tories. After all, that cost him nothing. On an issue of this kind he can be sure that he will get our support any way and at any time when he is doing his duty. To my friends here who were angered the other night I would say that small petty episodes must not be allowed to deter convinced and determined men from their path of duty. I say also to the Minister of Defence—quite appreciating the state of mind he was in—that it is sometimes better, on the whole, to do things not quite so nakedly. Ars est celare artem. For the benefit of the Etonians on the other side I will translate that as "Art is to conceal art."

We shall support the Bill in all its stages, but that does not mean that we shall not try to shape and modify it as well as we can, to fit it to what we conceive to be the national need. Here I may say that the Bill has evidently been very carefully shaped and considered. We shall do nothing to endanger its passage into law. We shall be careful to be present in good strength to support the Government. Moreover, we shall take no points off them in the constituencies, on the ground that they have gone forward and done this thing. We have quite enough to pick on without that. I will, however, permit myself to make some comments on the past.

The Prime Minister is not here. I have no doubt he has many other things to do. But it is certainly an irony of fate that the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence should be the men to bring a conscription Bill before the House now, after two years of peace, when all our enemies have surrendered unconditionally. Why, these were the very politicians who, four months before the outbreak of the war, led their followers into the Lobby against the principle of compulsory military service, and then had the face to accuse the Conservative Party of being "guilty men." I and a handful of others have a right to criticise and censor the lack of preparation for the late war, but the Prime Minister and his friends have no right to do so; the whole effort of their party was designed to make every preparation for defence of the country and resistance to Hitler so unpopular, that it was politically impossible. Now, in the long swing of events, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence, who refused in May, 1939, to vote for conscription against Hitler and Nazism, when that was proposed by Mr. Hore-Belisha in Mr. Chamberlain's Government, come forward in a time of peace and victory, to ask us to support conscription against some other danger, some other dictatorship, which I do not propose this afternoon precisely to define. This performance this afternoon encourages me. I do not despair of the party opposite. It is never too late to mend; we all may live and learn, and they may live and learn, but the question is whether, when they have learned, we shall still be alive.

I turn now to the Liberal Party. They, at least, are consistent, and they are united, but they have not the task of organising and disciplining such large forces as those which occupy the hourly attention of the Government Whips. I remember well the day when my right hon. Friend Sir Archibald Sinclair, who is not with us at the moment, marched his followers into the Lobby, with the Prime Minister and with the Minister of Defence, to vote "No" to conscription against Hitler and Nazism in the spring of 1939. In this world of human error and constant variations, usually of an unexpected character, the Liberal Party can range themselves in party doctrine, few but impeccable. They have no need to recur for safety or vindication to that well-known maxim, or dictum, that "Consistency is the last resort of feeble and narrow minds." They are quite entitled to say that they have always been against compulsory service. They were against it before the first world war, and, in spite of some considerable pressure from Mr. Lloyd George, they were against it after the first world war. In the interval many things have changed, but here today the Liberal Party are ready to sacrifice themselves in the constituencies, and face any amount of unpopularity, fearless of by-elections, however they may come, and ready at this juncture to stand firm by the old theme and the old flag. It is no part of my policy to pick unnecessary quarrels with the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. Clement Davies) and those whom he leads, and I shall, therefore, content myself with paying this well-deserved tribute to their rigid and inflexible consistency.

I shall venture to present to the House some of the reasons which lead the Conservative Party to give their support to this Socialist Government on the Second Reading of the National Service Bill. First, let me refer to one or two points of detail. Since the war stopped, the mismanagement of our Armed Forces has been remarkable. For a whole year, there were three Service Ministers who have since been dismissed or moved because they were either incompetent or absentees. One was promoted. He was not promoted because he was incompetent, but because he was an absentee. At any rate, the three great Service Departments have had to drift and flop along as they might. I criticised the demobilisation policy of the Government early in November, 1945, at the very beginning. I still think that it was not carried out with proper speed, down to the limits which were required by the public safety. We know that the Government were forced by a wave of public opinion to change the plans they had prepared, but still they kept hundreds of thousands of men and women waiting about needlessly doing nothing, when they were urgently needed in civil life. In these matters, time passes and draws a sponge across the past, but I should have been ashamed not to have demobilised down to the necessary figure at a very much greater speed than was attained. But the past is no more. I must register the point that perhaps a year was lost in the case of many men who could have been giving our country the necessary fillip at that time, in getting industry to work, but were retained in the Services doing what we now conceive to be perfectly useless tasks, not only abroad, but, in very large numbers, in England.

Mr. James Glanville (Consett)

rose—

Mr. Churchill

The hon. Member seems much disturbed about this matter today. He must not endeavour to direct on me any criticism which should rightly be attributed to his leader. We have next the White Paper by the Minister of Defence. I must again remind the House that the right hon. Gentleman used very hard language about the arguments of his political opponents, the other night, and about their style. No more barren, dismal, flatulent, platitudinous document than his White Paper—if you can call it "his" White Paper—has ever been laid before the House of Commons. His friends—and I am certainly a wartime friend—hope that it is to his credit that he had nothing to do with writing it. It was one of those rigmaroles and grimaces produced by the modern bureaucracy into whose hands we have fallen—a kind of vague palimpsest of jargon and officialese, with no breadth, no theme and, above all, no facts.

I think I shall be speaking for everyone in all parts of the House when I say there is a broadly spread feeling that our manpower in the Forces is being wasted, muddled and mismanaged. There has been no administrative thrift, and there has been insufficient good housekeeping. This applies to all three Services. There never was a time when the effective fighting strength of the Army, Navy and Air Force bore a smaller proportion to the total number of men taken by compulsion. The Estimates, which have been presented to the House and debated fully in the recent weeks, gave us no clue to the fighting strength of our Armed Forces. The Navy Estimates, for instance, do not dare to specify the ships and fleets the Navy have in commission. That was invariably done before the war, and I see no reason why it should not be done at the present time. Nor have we the slightest idea from the Estimates of the numbers in the Navy afloat, and the numbers ashore.

I believe that the Minister of Defence is to wind up this Debate, and perhaps he will be so good as to answer this particular question. The Navy have around 200,000 men today—maybe a little less—and according to the Estimate they are reducing the numbers to 182,000 by this time next year. Out of these 200,000 men, I want to ask how many are sleeping afloat tonight, and how many are sleeping ashore. I think we might be told that. I do not think it would endanger the safety of the country, although it may stir people up a little at the Admiralty. I should like to know the answer, because, after all, the Navy is a thing which is in various ways associated and often connected with the sea, and a sailor is always supposed to have something to do, at some time or other, with salt water. Perhaps I may have an answer to that question when the time comes. Nor do the Royal Air Force venture to state the number of fighting squadrons they have. Finally, the War Office give us no indication of the number of divisions or mobile brigades which are formed out of a total establishment of about 750,000.

We are told by the Government, "Oh, we cannot do it, because foreign Powers will gain an advantage," but I thought that all our enemies had surrendered unconditionally, and the House may remember that we went in procession to St. Margaret's to return thanks for the victory. It appears now that we cannot do what we did in 1939, and in 1914, namely, state in broad terms what foreign Powers know perfectly well, the broad outline of our naval and military organisations. Apart from your war against the Jews in Palestine, I thought there was peace. At any rate, the House may be sure that the Soviet Government know perfectly well what we have got in the Navy and in the forces in Europe, and that they have got a lot of good friends moving freely about in this country, who will not hesitate to tell them about any little points on which they may be short.

Perhaps in the air there may be a little more mystery, because the air is a "kittle cattle" kind of service. Whether a squadron is in the first line, or the second line, or in training or in preparation, and what is the exact grading of the various machines and pilots—all that affords an infinite field in which confusion may be created and statistics multiplied and spawned in vast quantities and varieties. Therefore, I am not pressing so much in regard to the air, but believe me, nothing is gained by refusing to tell the House what ships we have in commission, and how many broad organisations of troops we have in the field. What we have to keep secret is not that, but our mobilisation plans, and equipment, and the potential rate at which our Forces can be manned.

I hope we shall not have this humbug of saying, "We cannot say how many ships there are in commission, because we do not want foreign nations to know." I have never heard such a pretence pre- sented to the House before. The reason why the facts are not disclosed in the Estimates is because the Government do not dare to expose themselves to criticism for the little they have to show, compared with the great numbers they have and the vast sums of money they are spending. We reserve to ourselves the fullest right to examine and criticise the policy and the Bill which is now brought before us, from the standpoint both of its quantitative and qualitative results. Nevertheless, when all is said add done, even if we do not get satisfactory answers, we shall unfailingly support the principle of national service for the Armed Forces of our country.

Before I sit down I will, very briefly, give a few reasons, broad reasons—

Mr. Scollan (Renfrew, Western)

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me?

Mr. Churchill

—which have led us to this conclusion. I am explaining why I am going to support the Government, and perhaps find myself in the same Lobby as the hon. Gentleman. If I give way to him, perhaps he will bear that in mind, and mitigate his ferocity.

Mr. Scollan

Would the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell the House why conscription, by a Government which is responsible for the muddle in the Forces which the right hon. Gentleman has described, would alter the muddle or help the position?

Mr. Churchill

That really is a question which should be addressed to the Front Bench opposite. As I say, I stand here confronted with this proposal to have a National Service Bill. I and my Friends, after careful thought, feel bound to give it loyal support. That does not at all deprive us of the full right to point out how very badly other things have been managed, and how much one is in agreement with the feeling the hon. Gentleman has just expressed. Compulsory military service is not necessarily a problem for a regular standing Army; but the only way of making us a nation of fighting men in time of war is by national service in time of peace. As all our habits in the past have been to live in a peaceful manner, we have entered all our wars unprepared or ill-prepared, and the delay before we are able to place an army in the field at the side of our Allies has been a very serious weakness, not only in the physical but in the moral sphere.

There is nothing contrary to the spirit of democracy in the principle of compulsory national defence, provided it is universal, provided that rich and poor men of every class and party have to pay their due at the same time. On the contrary—

Mr. Cove (Aberavon)

All in the ranks, not in the officer class?

Mr. Churchill

Certainly. I am much in favour of national service being on a basis of absolute equality. There used to be a period when it was possible to hire substitutes—it was so in the American Civil War—but these practices have long passed away. There is nothing contrary to the principles of democracy. On the contrary, it emphasises the principle of equality of sacrifice, and by mingling all classes together, in common duty and honourable service, it is a favourable agent for diminishing class differences which exist in a free and varied society. It has been defended and practised by all the most advanced democratic countries in Europe since the French Revolution. Reliance for the defence of the soil on national armies rather than on long service professionals, or mercenaries as they were called, was, in the 19th century, at any rate, a strong barrier against reaction in a rapidly changing and, upon the whole, advancing and progressing world.

It is quite true that conscription for prolonged foreign service presents itself in a different light, and cannot be maintained as a permanency. The maintenance of garrisons abroad raises problems and requires qualities and conditions which are not reconcilable with the short-term service characteristic of national compulsory armies. That is found by every country where the army is raised by conscription and yet requires a certain proportion to be provided for foreign garrisons. Now, at this time, after a war in which the whole people took part has been waged and extraordinary confusion reigns in the world, it is necessary to have compulsion for service overseas—a hard thing for any Government to maintain. But that is not a basis on which our Army or any other army can indefinitely be maintained. The loss of India and Burma are lamentable and melancholy events, and they signalise, in striking manner, the rapid decline of British power and prestige. But living at a more humble level does, in fact, relieve us of some strain in this military sphere. The maintenance of an Army in India has been a great burden. To keep 50,000 or 60,000 men permanently in the Service entailed the maintenance of a professional Army, based upon long service. It is like holding the dumbbell at arm's length—quite tiring, very different from if it is held here. For several generations that has prevented the development of an effective national Army in this country, which for much the same expense could have been made far stronger than was possible.

I do not intend to go into the Cardwell system. Every one knows that foreign service required seven years with the Colours, five with the Reserve, or even eight with the Colours and four with the Reserve, which leaves a very small reserve to be built up; whereas, if we had not had to maintain this large force abroad, we could have developed two years with the Colours and To with the Reserve, or 1½ years with the Colours and 1½ with the Reserve, or, as the Government are doing, 1½ with the Colours, and 5½ with the Reserve. Had such a system been possible before the war, we could have had, at the outset, three or four times as many divisions ready to go, with results that cannot be measured; because as we now know from the German figures, very different conditions prevailed at Munich time, and even at the outbreak of war, from those which prevailed in May, 1940, when Hitler had reached the moment when he could strike.

Certainly, our power to keep the peace in the 20th century has been greatly hampered by the fact that we did not possess a national Army. We were in a position which laid us open to reproach from European countries, not only potential foes, but Allies and neutrals, that we would use everybody else's blood—every one has heard the taunt—to pursue our policy and gain our ends, and would content ourselves with implementing their efforts by sea power and money, and latterly, of course, by air power. It is arguable even that we tried to play too large a part in European affairs between the wars and before the first war, while not being able or willing to accept the same conditions of service, or put up the same manpower as our Allies or potential Allies were forced to do. We should have carried far more weight in the councils of peace if we had had national service.

There is no doubt that the passage of this Bill now, in this hour of dark depression, will help to sustain our otherwise failing influence in world affairs, and particularly in the United Nations organisation. That influence is being steadily reduced by the policy of the Government, both at home and abroad. It is remarkable that this curious Administration should step aside from its broad downward path to take this single solitary step towards a more hopeful national policy. We welcome the step all the more because of the contrast in which it throws so much else they have done. So shines a good deed in a naughty world. It has long been recognised in this and other countries that there is a great gulf fixed between national service for military purposes and what is called industrial conscription, or the direction of labour, in time of peace. There is a great gulf. In the war we leapt that gulf, but never before has it been, and we earnestly trust it will not be, dreamed of in time of peace. There is no need to confuse the two.

Service to save the country has always from ancient times been considered the first duty of the citizen. It is however questionable, in my mind, whether any exemptions of young men from military service should be made in time of peace for particular industries. I was glad to hear the Minister of Labour say that it would be only for underground coalmining. Yes, away from the light of the sun, that is a different kind of sacrifice which is made. But even this seems, in a way, to reflect both upon the character of military service and the character of mining. It is one thing in wartime to stop miners from going to fight as soldiers, sailors and airmen, as they frequently wanted to do, and quite another to encourage a particular kind of young man to go into mining as a means of avoiding military service. It may be necessary in this crisis, but it is not a healthy basis for the State or society as a whole. Both services—the Armed Forces and mining—are honourable, and nothing should be done which seems to reflect upon either. It would certainly be a most unfortunate expedient to have, as a permanent matter, to try to increase the manpower in the mines by a class of youths who dislike military service. I should be sorry to see that develop over a long period of time.

The fact that we support the Government on the broad principle of national service for the Armed Forces in no way weakens our intention to censure the waste of manpower by those Forces. On the contrary, it should strengthen us in our duty to do so. I say without hesitation that the present condition of all three Services, as a result of Ministerial incompetence since the war, is disgraceful I hope that the Chief of the Imperial General Staff is to be at his desk giving his whole mind to this matter, and that he will be able on all occasions to give the fullest possible assistance to the Minister of Defence, in order that the matter may be viewed from a central point of view. General Montgomery is a very gifted man, and I hope that he will be close to the Minister of Defence in all the months that are to come.

I am very grateful to the House for giving me so much of their attention. [Interruption.] As we are all going to work and vote together, we may as well be on friendly terms, so that the House may be responsible for insisting on the proper use being made in the Forces of young men taken from so many important industries and walks of life, and upon a proper proportion of fighting strength being developed as a result of so much sacrifice and expense. It seems to me that all parties and sections of parties might join in this with equal earnestness. If Parliament did its duty, and if the Government allowed Parliament to do its duty, there would be set up a Parliamentary committee of all parties, similar to the National Expenditure Committee, which did such useful work during the war; or even a joint committee of both Houses to investigate, with full power to call for persons and papers, the use of manpower in the three Forces, and with power, by leave of the House, to sit in secret from time to time. Such a body would be of the greatest value, not only to the country as a whole, but to the Service Ministers, and to the Minister of Defence, none of whom is able, apparently, to cope with the problem himself.

Mr. S. Silverman

On this matter of Parliamentary control, the right hon. Gentleman may or may not have noticed the proviso to Clause 24 which provides that this Act shall remain in force for five years, but, thereafter, can be extended by Order in Council. The right hon. Gentleman's party in this Parliament, whenever a Bill has been put forward with such an arrangement, have always opposed it in the interests of Parliamentary control. Do they intend to oppose it on this occasion?

Mr. Churchill

I cannot possibly endeavour to look forward to so long as five years. For anyone who is so far advanced in age of life as I am, it would appear to be presumptuous. Even if this serious obstacle did not present itself, I should not be anxious to face more difficulties and troubles than those by which we are surrounded at the present time.

Mr. Silverman

I feel certain that the right hon. Gentleman is taking far too pessimistic a view. In any case, that has not prevented his party from opposing this provision in a number of other Bills introduced since the beginning of this Session.

Mr. Churchill

The hon. Gentleman knows as well as anybody that Parliament is master. If there is a Parliament which is against the prolongation of such a Measure, no such Measure can be prolonged, whatever the provisions in the Bill. On the other hand, if there were a general feeling that it was in accordance with the national interest and not in disharmony with the characteristics of our British life, it might be that the House would be content to see it passed through without it being a great cause of dissension.

I must return to the point, which is my last one, that I believe that there are many scores of millions which could be saved from the present immense total of f000 million demanded this year on the Estimates of the three Services. I would very much like to have had a chance to get loose upon them with my red pencil. I am perfectly certain that we could have had a very considerable saving, and I am perfectly certain that this could be achieved simultaneously with a positive increase iii the fighting power of the Services. Therefore, we shall support His Majesty's Government in the Lobby tomorrow night, and on other occasions, when necessary, throughout this Bill; but let no Minister imagine that we do not regard their wasteful, inefficient and in- competent administration of the fighting Services as a scandal of the first order.

5.20 p.m.

Mr. Hopkin Morris (Carmarthen)

The right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) has, in his matchless way, made great play with the position of those of us who sit on the Liberal Benches. In the name of consistency, we must stand by the same flag and the same view, and I think that that is the best tribute that can be paid. By what flag are we standing? We are not standing by any pacifist flag. That has never been our flag. We have favoured conscription in time of national emergency and in time of war, and I think that we are entitled to do that, because conscription in time of war is the best system. There are other coercions besides the coercion of law that can be brought to bear—there is the coercion of opinion. Anyone who remembers the state of this country at the beginning of the first world war, will remember that the issue of white banners and similar devices made the position of the young men in the country subject to far greater oppression than conscription. Conscription is the most free system in time of war, but equally it is the most oppressive in time of peace.

The right hon. Member for Woodford is one of the great figures of the world. It is because of that, that I would draw his attention and the attention of his party to what happened during this last world war. In the first world war, the Government of which he was then a distinguished Member led the country into war and led it through successfully because they commanded the universal moral support of the country. Does that count for nothing? In the last war, which the right hon. Gentleman led, his broadcast speeches, when we were standing alone in 1940, were worth battalions of men in themselves. Why? Because, spoken with his power and eloquence, they commanded the full and universal support of this country. That was a moral factor in itself. So powerful was that moral factor that when one examines countries like Russia, France, Germany and Italy—every one of which had conscription—we find that every one of them, at one time or another in the two world wars, was defeated—the only country that came through two world wars undefeated, triumphantly, was this country. Today the Government are introducing a Bill of conscription in peace time, in 1947, when, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, all our enemies have surrendered unconditionally. That is a remarkable situation and would have been impossible but for the free spirit of this country. It is perfectly true that training counts, that arms matter. I am not disagreeing with that; but there is something far more important than arms; there is something far more important than training—and that is the spirit of the men behind the arms. That is the spirit which the right hon. Gentleman expressed and commanded; that is the spirit which was missing from those other countries.

It is interesting to note how conscription came to be fastened on the neck of Europe. It was fastened on the neck of Europe by Napoleon out of ideas of the French Revolution, and under the dictatorship of Napoleon. It was Napoleon who lost Waterloo. France abolished conscription, and it came back again with Napoleon the Third. The Treaty of Versailles imposed a voluntary system upon Germany. That voluntary system, I suggest, was largely contributory to making the German Army, between the war periods, what it proved to be. If we examine the German forces more closely, the voluntary part of its forces, the S.S. men and the Air Force, they were the strong part of those forces, but the conscripted part of the forces was its source of weakness. France had conscription, and France was defeated. It would have been better for us in the last war if the Treaty of Versailles had provided for a voluntary system in France and conscription in Germany. The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head; but he is the greatest witness of the march of events during that period. He himself knows that better than anyone else in the world, because he was the champion of the free spirit. I wonder if he had been leading this country in a world war of 20 years after conscription had been introduced whether this country would have gone down like France? Would he himself have commanded the free spirit of the country and have been the free leader that he is?

I listened with amazement to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour. He dealt, as the right hon. Gentleman said, lucidly and clearly with the provisions of the Bill, but he said not one word about the principles of the Bill; not one word why we should bring in a Bill of this sort in peace time—the greatest departure from the traditions of this country which one could imagine taking place in this House. I hope that the House will allow me to say what I have in my mind about this subject. I make it quite clear that I am speaking for myself. I have already indicated that I am not a pacifist, but we are very fond of talking of the civilisation of the West as being a Christian civilisation. What do I mean by that? Leaving aside all form of religion, merely interpreting it as a form of life in the West, if we examine the whole of ancient civilisation, so far as I am able to examine it, we find no trace of the doctrine of the person or the doctrine of free will anywhere. It is the doctrine of the gods ruling the man and using the State as an instrument. That is the whole doctrine of the ancient world in all its forms so far as I am aware.

The modern Western world, exclusive of Russia, which I treat for all purposes as part of Asia, has grown up on the bases of the doctrine of free will and a free personality—a distinction between the man and the State. It has grown up on that separate doctrine. It has affected the views on education; it has affected the whole of the commercial arrangements of the commercial world. Instead of the law of status characteristic of the old world we have the law of contract of the modern world. Instead of the education of a class in the ancient world we have the education of man as man's right in the modern world. It was not by extending that development between the two wars but by negativing it that Germany and Italy reverted to the views of the old world by making the citizen a completely subservient being to the State with the State having complete control over the whole of life. That is reversion and that is what we are faced with at the present time. When I speak of this civilisation being in danger I mean by that the reversion to the old world form of slavery in one form or another. Right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench are today taking their share and responsibility for that reversion. They may be doing this instead of providing for the safety of the country or the realm in time of war, because they may be imperilling this country in time of war. That is why we stand by the old flag. We stand by the old flag because we are interested in the maintenance of civilisation represented by this country and we stand by the safety of this realm in time of war.

Mr. K. Lindsay

I hesitate to interrupt the hon. and learned Member, but he should remember that Germany and Italy did not introduce national service by a vote of a free people, whereas Switzerland, Sweden and many other countries did consult the interests of the people by a free vote of the people. That is the difference between Parliamentary democracy and something else.

Mr. Hopkin Morris

I am not at pains to justify conscription on a democratic basis but I would point out that a democratic basis is not a sufficient justification, because democracy can be as great a form of tyranny as any other tyranny unless we ask the question, What is the form of democracy?

Mr. Churchill

That in Switzerland?

Mr. Hopkin Morris

I am not sure judging by the sign of the times in this country or in any other country where democracy is prevailing but democracy might become a tyranny.

I do not propose to enter into details of this Bill, because I hope on the Committee stage to deal with them, but let me take one class in this Bill for whom I hold no brief at all—the conscientious objectors. The conscientious objectors are the touchstone of liberty in this Bill. That is why they are important. What are the provisions? The provisions in this Bill are precisely the provisions for exemption that were incorporated in the Acts during the war. They deal with conditional exemption, unconditional exemption, and provision for non-combatant service on the assumption apparently that conditions in war time and conditions in peace time are the same. That is an idle comparison. In war time we can easily distinguish between those entitled to conditional exemption and those entitled to unconditional exemption. Unconditional exemption means that the conscientious objector opposes war entirely. He says, in effect, "I will neither serve with the Armed Forces nor engage in any industry during the war which will further the war." Whether we agree with him or not, that is his position. In those beliefs he was entitled to unconditional exemption under the law.

Conditional exemption—and here is the crux of the whole position—means that a man says, "I object to killing, I object to serving in the Armed Forces, but I do not object to doing any civilian work for the furtherance of the purposes of war in the interests of the safety of the State." Under those conditions we give him conditional exemption, but he engages so far as he can in accordance with his conscience to carry on the work of the State. In other words, in time of war the State can direct men in that way in the interests of its survival. Upon what principle are the Government now going to give conditional exemption to a man? What work are they going to say a man is to do? The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said that he hoped that this Bill would not be looked upon as leading to conscription of labour. Does not this Clause of conditional exemption provide the bridge for it and introduce conscription of labour by the back door? What is the answer to that?

Take the case of the deferred people, the miners. There is nothing in this Bill to say what the liability of the miner is. He will be deferred while he remains working in the mines. If he remains there until he is 26 or over 26 or any age after 26 the liability for military service, whether he is called up or not, is not discharged. That remains. Is not that a veiled direction of labour? If not, what else is it? For the Minister of Defence I have a very great respect. I believe he is a conscientious man, and I have not bothered to look up the innumerable splendid speeches that he and others in the Government have made in other times, but every one of the arguments they used then are valid today.

Mr. Yates (Birmingham, Ladywood)

More so.

Mr. Hopkin Morris

Yes, more so. They opposed conscription in 1939, but in 1939 this country was in peril. That is a very different position from what it is in today. I have already said that in times of emergency and war conscription is a totally different proposition. I hope that the House will give very serious consideration to this Bill before they give away the greatest bulwark of the safety of the realm—the spirit of a free man. I hope that this Bill will be rejected, for I have never heard a Bill of this magnitude introduced into this House with lesser justification and merely with a lucid explanation of the provisions contained in it.

5.38 p.m.

Mr. Rhys Davies (Westhoughton)

I beg to move, to leave out "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add, "upon this day six months."

The Amendment which I am moving, and which I think is appropriate at this stage, is, in effect, that this Bill be rejected by the House of Commons. Before I come to that, however, I should like to turn for a moment or two to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. I hope that my hon. Friends on this side of the House will see that his support and that of the Conservative Party of this Measure, is the best condemnation of it. The mere fact that the Tory Party support a Conscription Bill presented to this House by a Labour Government ought to mean that the Bill should not be passed into law. The right hon. Gentleman taunted some of us on this side of the House for ruining the country by not supporting conscription previously. He then taunted the Government with changing their tune. The right hon. Gentleman is the last person in the world who should taunt anybody about changing their politics.

Mr. Churchill

I would remind the House that only three weeks ago the Prime Minister reproached me for having the same views on India for 50 years.

Mr. Davies

I remember the right hon. Gentleman contesting an Election many years ago; he was then the Liberal candidate for the Exchange Division of Manchester and he was being opposed by a Tory, the late Sir William Joynson-Hicks. The tune he was playing then was certainly different from the one he is playing here today. I know what the working classes think of the right hon. Gentleman, but I dare not quote in this place the language they employ in coal mines and factories about him. Nevertheless, he is a man whom I respect for his genius, but I say alto that he has brought more ruin upon this country and upon Europe than any other statesman of our time [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] Well, he asked for our views.

Mr. Churchill

It is only the truth that wounds.

Mr. Davies

I cannot forget his escapade in Russia at the end of the first world war; the repercussions of that escapade by the way are being felt even now in the Moscow Conference.

Having said all that, I will now come to the Bill. I am a sad man standing here tonight. This is the most tragic day for me during the quarter of a century that I have been in this House. I have worked for years with many of my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench to build this party and I know their personal views. I hardly think that their hearts are in this business at all. I believe that they would all say that they do not like this Bill; and if they do not like the Measure I should like to know who it is that does, and what compels them to bring it before the House. As I said, this is a very sad day for me. I was there when the Labour Party was formed; and having spoken at street corners and on platforms a thousand times preaching the exalted gospel of the Labour Party when we were a few, I never thought I would live to see the day when right hon. Friends of mine would stand up in this House to introduce military conscription in peacetime, especially when I have heard some of those same right hon. Gentlemen denounce conscription more fiercely than I will ever be able to do.

Right hon. Gentlemen who are in the Government damage democracy, Parliament and Socialism in imposing conscription in peace-time. It is no use criticising a Government for doing this when we are in Opposition, if when we come over to this side of the House we do the same thing. The people will not be deceived by such somersaults. I have been here long enough to see—and I hope my Liberal Friends opposite will not mind me saying this—a party as strong as the present Labour party wiped clean out of public life except for a few who are the most intelligent of them. I have no illusions about what damage can be done to the cause of the common people by a few statesmen.

The Bill imposes conscription for a minimum of 10 years after the end of the war. Incidentally, I cannot understand my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench always comparing the number of men in the Forces as between 1947 and 1944, as