3.31 p.m.

Mr. J. S. C. Reid (Glasgow, Hillhead)

I beg to move, in page 1, line 20, to leave out from beginning, to "that," in line 1, page 2, and to insert: (1) For the removal of doubt it is hereby declared that all Defence Regulations directed by Order in Council to have effect by virtue of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, and remaining unrevoked at the date of the passing of this Act and all orders or other instruments in force thereunder are and remain valid and effective for all or any of the purposes set out in Subsection (1) of Section one of that Act. (2) The purposes set out in Subsection (1) of Section one of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, shall include and shall be deemed always to have included the following purposes. The purpose of this Amendment, and of another which I shall mention in a moment, is to bring the Bill into line with the intentions of the Government, as expressed with some particularity by the Lord President on Friday, and again, in shorter form, by the Prime Minister last night. I think it is obvious that this Bill was produced in a hurry It is not part of a long-thought-out plan, because there is not such a plan, and, therefore, it is quite easy to understand that the draftsmen may have received some indefinite instructions and have thought that they had better be on the safe side in drafting the Bill as widely as possible

Before I proceed to explain what the Amendment seeks to do, it might be well if I stated in as short a form as I can what I understood to be the view of the Lord President and of the Prime Minister. The Lord President, on the Second Reading Debate on Friday, put in the forefront of his case the removal of legal difficulties. He said: We were apprehensive that unless we got this additional definition of purpose we might, first of all, get into legal difficulties. Then he said: The courts might rule that some of the action was ultra vires. Secondly, there might have been a temptation to the Government to stretch the meaning of the existing law. A few lines further on, he said this: Therefore, because of legal doubt, because we wanted Ministers to be able to say to themselves all the time, 'I am acting within the law,' and in order that the Government might have adequate powers, which it must have, to deal with the present situation, we thought it right to take the straightforward course and bring this Bill before Parliament."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th August, 1947; Vol. 441, c. 1804.] I welcome the fact that the Government are extremely scrupulous, even though I do not understand their scruples. I do not think their scruples were explained, certainly not adequately explained, on Second Reading. In any event, we have now reached the Committee stage, and I accept the view that the Government have scruples, right or wrong, and that those scruples ought to be respected. The purpose of the Amendment is to bring the Bill into such a position that it will meet and remove all the scruples which have hitherto been expressed.

The Lord President mentioned three different topics on which he was doubtful whether the existing powers really covered them. The first was redressing the balance of trade, the second was the development of the export trade, and the third was the emphasis on increasing production. He thought, if I understood him right, that there was some danger of an order, which appeared on the face of it to be directed to one or more of those objects, being held by the courts ultra vires the 1945 Act. I do not think I would feel very happy in having to plead before a court that such an order was ultra vires that Act. I do not think I am usually at a loss for an argument on a legal topic, but I confess that I should be at a loss on this occasion. Nevertheless, let us suppose that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General has discovered a statable argument on this question, and that, therefore, we ought to deal with it.

This Amendment does precisely what the Government want. It sets out to remove doubts, and, if I may, I should like to read it. (1) For the removal of doubt it is hereby declared that all Defence Regulations directed by Order in Council to have effect by virtue of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act. 1945, and remaining unrevoked at the date of the passing of this Act and all orders or other instruments in force thereunder are and remain valid and effective for all or any of the purposes set out in Subsection (1) of Section one of that Act. Then, we go on— (2) The purposes set out in Subsection (1) of Section one of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, shall include and shall be deemed always to have included the following purposes. That links up with the passage in the Bill at the top of page 2— that is to say:—

  1. (a) for promoting the productivity of industry, commerce and agriculture;
  2. (b) for fostering and directing exports and reducing imports, or imports of any classes, from all or any countries and for redressing the balance of trade."
These two things include everything about which the Lord President expressed doubts on Friday, and it is necessary, I think, in order that the proper meaning of this Amendment should be appreciated, that I should discuss along with it, the Amendment at the bottom of the first page on the Order Paper, which seeks to delete subsection (1, c)— In page 2, line 7, leave out from "trade," to end of line 11. Plainly, it will not make sense to make an Amendment of the purposes set out in Section 1 of the 1945 Act if it is not linked up with Subsection (1, c). With your permission, Major Milner, I propose to discuss the two Amendments together, and, no doubt, they can be put separately to the Committee in due course.

Mr. Blackburn (Birmingham, King's Norton)

On a point of Order. Could we have a Ruling on that? Do I understand that we are now to discuss both these Amendments and also the Amendment to delete Subsection (1, c), because, if so, it widens the whole scope of this extremely important Amendment, and, indeed, we might discuss the whole substance of the Bill?

The Chairman (Major Milner)

If it is agreed and for the convenience of the Committee, I have no objection to the Amendments being discussed together.

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison)

Further to that point of Order. Will the second Amendment in that case be voted on separately?

The Chairman

The reply to the right hon. Gentleman is "Yes." There can, of course, be a separate Division, if that is the desire of the Committee.

Mr. Churchill (Woodford)

I am very glad, Major Milner, that you have ruled that the Debate on the present Amendment shall accept within its compass the issue raised by the Amendment with respect to Subsection (1, c), but, of course, there will be two Divisions. Surely, there is no reason why these two Divisions should not take place at their proper time and place in the chronological sequence of the Bill? That would be agreeable to us. No doubt, a prolonged Debate will take place on the first Amendment, and it might, to some extent, abridge the time of the Committee in regard to the second.

Mr. Morrison

I appreciate that point, and the only difficulty on which I would seek your guidance, Major Milner, is this. Between this Amendment now being moved and the Amendment at the bottom of the page, there are two others, and it seems to be logical and proper that, if we are to have two Divisions, the votes could take place on this Amendment and on that at the bottom of the page instead of waiting to dispose of those in between.

Mr. J. S. C. Reid

Before you give your Ruling, Major Milner, may I explain that the second and third Amendment in the name of my right hon. Friends and myself on the Order Paper are really alternative to the first. The second is in page 1, line 20, after "which," to insert— at the date of the passing of this Act, and the third, in line 23, is to leave out from "thereunder," to "shall" in line 24. They raise quite short points and are little more than drafting. I suggest that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we took the discussion of the present Amendment and the one on paragraph (c) now, had our Division on this first Amendment, discussed the next two Amendments in their turn, and then had the Division on the Amendment relating to paragraph (c).

The Chairman

I must make it clear that there cannot be a second discussion on the Amendment relating to paragraph (c). I understand that it is desired that there should be one discussion but two Divisions, and the Divisions would be taken in chronological order, as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition suggested.

Mr. Churchill

I cannot agree to that. If that is to be your Ruling, Major Milner, then I think it would be better if the discussion on this present Amendment were limited strictly to its terms, and that we should preserve all our rights to have a full discussion on the main issue, which is the Amendment to leave out paragraph (c). If, however, a Debate were to take place on that Amendment and the present one now, it would affect the duration of the Debate on the Amendment relating to paragraph (c). If it is desired to keep this Debate on this Amendment strictly to the terms of the Amendment, then, of course, the main discussion of the evening will fall on the Amendment relating to paragraph (c).

The Chairman

The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that we cannot have two discussions on the same subject matter. I understood that the right hon. and learned Gentleman asked that the two Amendments should be taken together in one discussion. I was agreeable to that, on the clear understanding that there would be only one discussion—not two—but two Divisions if desired. However, if the Committee do not unanimously agree to that course then we must take the Amendments in the order in which they appear on the Paper, and the discussion on each one must be strictly limited to its terms.

Mr. J. S. C. Reid

I am afraid it is not really possible to discuss this present Amendment without mentioning paragraph (c), but I shall attempt not in any way to argue the case about paragraph (c) at this stage, and to restrict myself merely to mentioning it, in order to get the rest of the argument into shape.

There was a most noticeable conflict on Friday between the view of the Lord President and the view of certain hon. Gentlemen who sit high up behind him; and it is, perhaps, noticeable that, after that conflict had fully emerged into the light of day, the Prime Minister on Sunday night came down entirely on the side of the Lord President and against hon. Members who sit behind him; because the Prime Minister, according to the Press report, said this: The Government have introduced a Bill which, while it gives no greater powers than were given to the present Government in 1945, enables them to be applied to the present crisis. It is exactly in line with that sentence in the Prime Minister's broadcast that this Amendment is drafted. If I had been asked to draft an Amendment to carry the Prime Minister's intention into legislative effect I do not think I could have drafted a better Amendment than that which now appears on the Order Paper in the name of my right hon. Friends and myself. It is necessary, I think, in order to appreciate the importance of this Amendment, to spend a moment or two in developing the conflict—or, rather, in showing the reasons for the conflict—between the right hon. Gentleman and his follow.

3.45 p.m.

The hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) and the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Mikardo) and others appeared to be fellow travellers on this issue. I think I may take it that their remarks worked in together and were intended to form a coherent whole. The view of the hon. Member for East Coventry certainly was that the attempt to maintain full employment without the controls we have in operation already was bound to lead to a crisis. I think that that is what he meant when he said "without adequate controls." Therefore, the hon. Member for East Coventry, far from regarding this as a Bill for the removal of doubt, regarded it, as he explained in his opening sentence, indeed, as a Bill which ought to be used to very great effect. If this Amendment were carried, that use would be precluded, and the view of the Lord President would be sustained.

Then the hon. Member for Reading made a speech at least equally important to that of the hon. Member for East Coventry, because he regarded this Bill as the result of pressure brought to bear on the Government by himself and his friends. He told us that, whereas the Government had said months ago that his proposals could not be carried out, the Government were proposing to carry them out; but that they could not be carried out by reason of administrative difficulty. I venture to think the Government were right, and that if they attempt to carry out the views of the hon. Member for Reading they will land the country first into administrative chaos and secondly into national disaster. It is in order to support the Lord President against all pressure of that kind that this Amendment is designed—to prevent assaults coming down on his head from those who sit on the Mountain behind him. I cannot help remembering at this time the somewhat triumphant self-confidence of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General 18 months ago when he told us, "We are the masters now." I wonder whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman is quite sure today that he and his colleagues really are masters of the situation?

Mr. Collins (Taunton)

Is this particular discussion relevant to the Amendment we are considering, Major Milner?

Mr. Churchill

So the hon. Member is out to teach the Chair, is he, as well as everybody else?

The Chairman

I must ask the hon. Member to leave the conduct of the Debate in the hands of the Chair.

Mr. Reid

I should like to carry the Committee with me, and, therefore, I would just say in passing to the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) that the purpose of this Amendment is to make clear on the face of the Bill what the two leading Members of the Government have said was their intention—that the Bill does not go beyond the removal of doubts, and, especially, the new purpose specifically mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman. I think that all I have said up to now is relevant to that issue. As I say, our main reason for putting down this Amendment is to relieve the Government from pressure while they are finding a policy. It is noticeable that the hon. Member for East Coventry invented quite a different myth. He invented the myth of wise statesmen foreseeing trouble, making preparations, and then awaiting the psychological moment to launch on an astonished world a policy which would sweep the country. I wonder if he was serious? We have heard rumours, of course, that far from sweeping the country, the right hon. Gentleman has not even carried all his own followers.

The Chairman

The hon. and learned Gentleman is not entitled to discuss policy or purposes under this Amendment. That question might conceivably arise hereafter in relation to the Amendment to omit paragraph (c).

Mr. Reid

I have tried as carefully as I can to keep strictly to this Amendment, but it is difficult to draw the line. I have tried not to forestall what I may have to say in regard to the Amendment to leave out paragraph (c). If, Major Milner, you think the line of argument I am now pursuing would be more relevant on that Amendment, I will leave it for the moment and pass on to other matters. I can be short on this Amendment, retaining what I have to say till that later Amendment, because it would be unfortunate if I developed half my argument and then had to leave the other half to be brought forward in a disjointed manner. Possibly it would be better if I did not now develop the general line of argument, which I shall do at some stage during the Debate.

We are dealing here with such very loosely drafted and vague provisions in the Bill that a great deal depends on the spirit in which the Government intend to operate the Bill. Therefore, it is important that we should get at the beginning of the Bill a clear pointer to the spirit in which Parliament intends the Bill to be operated. If at the beginning of the Bill, we put in a clear indication that its main purpose is for the removal of doubt, and for the establishment of at least two of the purposes in Clause I as comprehended within the framework of the 1945 Act, then it is clear that, whatever be the legal niceties, no Government could, without flying in the face of the obvious intention of this House, use this Bill for more extended purposes. It is clear, therefore, that the Government would not really be free to change their minds. At the moment their minds are entirely in line with the Amendment. I find nothing in the speeches of right hon. Members opposite which goes one bit further than this Amendment would carry them. If that is what they want, then this Amendment makes it clear that they cannot be pressed, either by panic or by pressure from behind, into going further than they intend.

I hope the Government will accept this Amendment as carrying out their intention. At the moment I cannot see any reason why they should not. If they do accept the Amendment, then they know exactly where they stand. They have the powers for which they ask and no more. We have not yet been told any reason at all why they should get any more, but to pursue that line of argument would, I think, be trespassing on the later Amendment to leave out paragraph (c). If this Amendment is accepted the Government will have all—and indeed more than all—the powers which they ought to have to make changes by regulations. I do not want to dwell on the topic which I hope to raise at a later occasion, that the right way to deal with this matter is to bring forward important new developments for discussion in this House before they are put into operation. That, I take it, under your Ruling, Major Milner, comes more appropriately under paragraph (c).

Mr. H. Morrison

If the right hon. and learned Member is raising the question whether the matter should be dealt with by affirmative Resolution or by negative Prayer, that comes under a separate Amendment.

Mr. Reid

I am certainly not raising that question at all. The point I am raising, or propose to raise in some detail at a later stage, is that where there are major changes of policy they ought to be brought before this House in the form of Bills, and that neither a negative Prayer nor an affirmative Resolution is——

The Chairman

Clearly, that question does not come within the scope of this Amendment.

Mr. Reid

I rather thought that, and it was only because of the interruption of the right hon. Member—which, I confess, I rather invited—that I ventured to foreshadow the argument I shall put at a later stage. At this stage it is enough to say that this Amendment will save right hon. Members opposite from their friends.

Mr. Paget (Northampton)

The right hon. and learned Member has said what the Government can do under their Bill, and what can be done under this Amendment. Could he now tell us what the Government can do under the Bill but which cannot be done under the Amendment?

Mr. Reid

I thought I had made it perfectly clear that if this Amendment were accepted, it would be a clear pointer to the Government that this Committee agreed with their intention; and it would be, if not a breach of the law, at least a breach of faith for the Government to proceed beyond their present intentions. If they have as their authority a Bill beginning "For the removal of doubt," quite clearly such a Bill could not be used, without at least a grave breach of faith with the Committee, for purposes which go beyond the specific purposes to which the right hon. Member alluded at an earlier stage.

The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross)

I shall not follow the right hon. and learned Member in his Second Reading speech. I confess I am not surprised that he devoted his speech to Second Reading matters and not to the purpose of this Amendment. I shall seek, if I can, to avoid falling into that error, and to direct my observations to the Amendment on the Order Paper. This Amendment, as I see it, would add a great many words to the Bill but, as sometimes happens, the words would be entirely empty, and would in no way at all alter the scope, the effect or the substance of the Bill. I would not reject them for that reason alone if I thought that their adoption would enable hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to spend nights less ridden with fears of Gestapos, goblins and dictators.

4.0 p.m.

The Chairman

I do not think goblins are relevant to this discussion.

The Attorney-General

If it had been in Order, I would have said that this Amendment would not achieve that result. The Amendment, by the first of its two Subsections, seeks to remove doubts; but these are doubts which have never arisen, and which nobody could suggest for one moment were ever capable of arising. The purposes for which existing regulations could be used is, indeed, a matter which is in doubt, and it is for the purposes of removing this doubt that this Bill is introduced; but this Subsection does not deal with this doubt at all. Let me read it to the Committee. (1) For the removal of doubt it is hereby declared that all Defence Regulations directed by Order in Council to have effect by virtue of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, and remaining unrevoked at the date of the passing of this Act and all orders or other instruments in force thereunder are and remain valid and effective for all or any of the purposes set out in Subsection (1) of Section one of that Act. That is, the 1945 Act. That is not a matter about which I apprehend anyone has the slightest scintilla of doubt what soever. If there were a doubt, it would be a most grave and important constitutional matter that we should seek, by this Bill, to remove this doubt in regard to existing orders and regulations by retrospective action. But there is not the slightest doubt about it, and Members opposite know there is no question about the validity and operation of existing regulations or orders already operative and in force thereunder. These orders have been made and these regulations were continued for one or other of the four purposes specified in the 1945 Act, and that those orders and regulations are operative, legally enforceable and valid, no one who devotes his mind to the matter could for a moment have the slightest doubt.

Subsection (1) of this Amendment is completely vacuous, and so also is Subsection (2). Subsection (2) merely restates, in language which is less apt, what is already set out in the Bill. I could quite understand Members opposite wishing to raise some issue in regard to paragraph (c), which we shall approach on a later Amendment, but so far as this Amendment is concerned, taken by itself, as we have to take it, it adds nothing to and detracts nothing from the existing provisions of this Bill. The only result which would be achieved by the inclusion of this Amendment in the Bill would be to complicate the eventual legal interpretation which will have to be put on it by the courts, and for these reasons we cannot accept it.

Mr. Churchill

As the high legal authority who has misled His Majesty's Government on this subject, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is naturally anxious to fight every point. We were led to believe that the object of this Bill was only to remove doubts. It was for the purpose of removing doubts as to the working validity of the 1945 Act. We were led to believe that possibly the courts might hold that, an emergency of a peculiar character having now arisen, the phrase "transition from war to peace" would no longer cover the interim powers granted under the 1945 Act. We were led to believe that. If there was only this doubt, we thought it only right to put down an Amendment to remove the doubt. We do not seek to alter at this moment—little though we like them—the vast powers which are enjoyed by the Government under the 1945 Act. But, it appears now that all this is wrong. There is no question of removing doubts. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has the effrontery to get up and say at that Box, "No, there is no doubt about all this." I have never heard such stuff.

The Attorney-General

I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in giving way. Obviously, when the right hon. Gentleman said that he never heard such stuff, he had not been listening to what I said. What I said was that this Bill has been introduced for the purpose of removing doubt—doubts which might arise in future as to whether the purposes for which it was desired to use existing regulations were covered by the four heads set out in the 1945 Act. This Amendment seeks to remove not this doubt, but doubts about quite different matters which have never arisen except in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Churchill

I have legal advisers and friends here in this House whose professional credentials are at least as high as those which the Labour Party are able to procure by the glittering prize of office. We are told now that there has never been any question of doubt in this matter. Certainly we were told that there was doubt, and I have certainly every reason to believe that the doubt operated in respect of the word "existing" regulations, and that no new regulations could be made under this Bill apart from those which have already been made under the 1945 Act. After all, there is the Lord President of the Council. I have a great deal of confidence in his sense of fair play. [Laughter.] I have when it comes to a dead-level talk across the Table of the House. He knows perfectly well that we were assured that existing regulations were all that were to be involved in this Bill, and that the Government were afraid the existing regulations would be hampered by arbitrary or far-fetched constructions being put upon them by the courts, and that consequently, at a moment when there is a grave emergency, the Government's powers may be hampered and restricted.

There was all this brought out by the Lord President on the Second Reading about the delicate feelings of Ministers who had to administer great and important Acts regulating the entire life and movement of labour and the conditions throughout the country. They were most anxious that they should not be forced even to appear to make a strange interpretation of the law. We were told all this; that this was the reason and the purpose for which this Bill was introduced. We were told that it was for the purpose of removing all doubt. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must have misled his superiors who engage him. He may have misled them at a time before this Measure, but we are well aware that there were doubts, and doubts of the kind I have described. A mere statement, which is the most perfect representation of the converse of the truth that it would be possible to refer to within the limits of Parliamentary language, in no way removes this impression.

This Amendment is intended to give the Government all that we understood they asked for. We thought they asked for very little, having regard to the immense powers they already possessed, that they wished to be sure that these powers are not diminished at this time of crisis. The Government could not have considered that it raised an important issue. They hoped to push it through at the tag end of the Debate on Thursday, and wind it up and get us all away by Friday. So trumpery and trifling did they consider it—just a matter of removing doubt. The right hon. and learned Gentleman says that it has nothing to do with removing doubt. If he considers that there is nothing more in it than that, it shows what a bad bargain the Government have made in hiring him to give legal advice.

We desired very much to approach the issues in this crisis, so far as possible, as a united Parliament. Instead of that, this challenge is flung in our faces. I shall elaborate that on the later stages of the Bill. I have just been informed that the Government of the Bahamas have deported their Attorney-General. If I wished this Government well, I might recommend the adoption of a similar course, but I cannot wish them well in view of the partisan manner in which they have treated us. We have endeavoured, with all the legal talent and authority we can command, to express exactly what we were led to believe—and I understand the meaning of words as well as anyone else—was what the Government wished. By no one was that impression conveyed more than by the Attorney-General. This Measure has grown to one of enormous importance. All that lies behind it is coming into view. The Government refuse to accept the Amendment, which gives them all that they asked for and demanded—the removal of doubt. One doubt, at any rate, which has been effectively removed is that of the competency of the Attorney-General.

Mr. Blackburn

The Leader of the Opposition has an advantage in this matter over me and most Members on this side of the Committee, in that before this Bill was presented to Parliament he had conversations which we do not know about, but to which he has referred. I and the members of my party were not consulted about this Bill, and have in no way given authority, in advance, to produce a Measure which has nothing whatever to do with our mandate. It seems to me, with great respect, that the Amendment is platitudinous. The right hon. Gentleman had his tongue in his cheek in the way he moved it. In effect, his purpose today has been to move an Amendment which means nothing whatever. I propose to vote with the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Liberal Party, because I wish the whole Bill to mean nothing at all. It is a totalitarian Measure and exactly the kind of thing which was introduced in Germany and other Fascist countries. In my submission, it is most important that the Attorney-General and the Lord President should make clear whether they stand by the original line which the Lord President put across in the conversations we have heard about. Is this a Bill for the removal of doubt? Is the Bill merely an attempt to say, "There may be some slight doubt"——

The Chairman

The hon. Member keeps referring to the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the Bill as a whole, he is out of Order, but if he is referring to the Amendment then he will be in Order.

4.15 p.m.

Mr. Blackburn

I am referring to Subsection (1) of the Amendment, and particularly to the words: For the removal of doubt. The advantage of those words, although the Subsection is platitudinous, is that they declare that the intention of the Bill is merely to remove doubt as to the legal validity of the 1945 Act. If the Amendment is accepted, or if the Attorney-General or the Lord President—as I appeal to them to do—get up and say, "The purpose of this Bill is merely to remove doubt," then the great constitutional crisis which will arise on this point can be avoided. I appeal to them to make their position clear.

Mr. Clement Davies (Montgomery)

Following the dispute which has taken place between my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) and the Attorney-General, I want to turn to the words of the Preamble. After citing the 1945 Act, it states": Whereas under the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945,"— and these words will show what, in the view of the Government, was the interpretation they put on their Act— …(being purposes connected mainly with the orderly transition from war to peace and the allocation of available supplies and services during the transition)". I understand that that is what the Government have suggested is the reason why they want this hew Bill.

The Chairman

I do not know whether the right hon and learned Gentleman heard the Ruling I gave a few moments ago, but we are dealing with a specific Amendment, and not with the Bill as a whole, or with the Preamble. If the Preamble has any relation to the Amendment, then the right hon. and learned Gentleman is in Order, but not otherwise.

Mr. Davies

Those words are an explanation of the doubt which apparently was in the mind of the Government. They say, and the Attorney-General agrees, that because they had doubt as to the force of the 1945 Act, and the purposes for which it could be used, they are now saying, "We require a new Act, and hence this Bill." Is that, or is it not, true? The powers of the 1945 Act are very extensive. What happened? The war was coming to an end. During the war the Government, under the Defence of the Realm Act, had power to issue regulations which are still in existence. They were to come to an end within six months of the end of the war. Everybody agreed that it would be wrong that that Act should be terminated and that from that moment the right to make Orders in Council should come to an end so that we could begin to legislate for matters arising as a result of the war. In the circumstances, the 1945 Act was passed. That will remain in force until 1950. There is nothing in that Act which says that it is mainly for purposes connected with the orderly transition from war to peace. Why there has been any doubt in the minds of the Government, I cannot make out; why this Bill should ever have been necessary I cannot make out. That being so, if there is a doubt, the right way to remove the doubt is to accept this Amendment.

Mr. H. Morrison

If there was no need for the Act, and if this Bill makes no difference—which I do not agree—as the right hon. and learned Gentleman is now arguing, why was the Liberal Amendment to the Second Reading put down, making out that it was totalitarianism?

Mr. Davies

I was coming to that. If it is to remove a doubt, the right thing to do is to accept this Amendment, and to say that in order to remove doubts, the Act of 1945 must not be limited to anything occurring in the transitional period, but it is to be in existence for five years; but if it is intended to do more, as we suspect that it is from the words that are used in subsequent provisions, then we oppose it. If there is merely a doubt as to the purpose of the 1945 Act, then accept the Amendment which seeks to remove those doubts and no more. There is our declaration. It is obvious from the refusal of the Government to accept this Amendment, that they intend to do what we suspect.

Mr. Henry Strauss (Combined English Universities)

I support the Amendment moved by my right hon. and learned Friend, and I think that the answer of the Attorney-General is, in part, disingenuous and, in part, inaccurate. Let me deal with the first point first. He says that Subsection (1) of the Amendment taken alone—and I think the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) made a similar point—is platitudinous and, probably, improper. With respect, I agree, if it were taken alone, but I say that no lawyer looking at this Amendment would dream of taking it alone. It is quite obviously intimately connected with Subsection (2), and without Subsection (2) it is impossible to give it any meaning. If we look at it with Subsection (2), then it is neither platitudinous nor improper. In the attempted demolition of Subsection (1), the Attorney-General is really not being fair to the Amendment or to those who drafted it.

Mr. Blackburn

What difference will there be if we knock out the whole of Subsection (1) and limit it to Subsection (2)?

Mr. Strauss

I think that the convenient rule of draftsmanship, as the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) has pointed out, when the whole purpose of the Bill is the removal of doubt, is to set out the words "for the removal of doubt" clearly in the opening Subsection, and that is the reason. I am not differing from the Attorney-General or the hon. Member for King's Norton in saying that if Subsection (1) stood alone it would be platitudinous and improper, but I say that no lawyer looking at this Amendment as a whole would dream of saying that Subsection (1) should or could be construed in isolation.

When we come to the consideration of Subsection (2), then the Attorney-General's argument becomes definitely wrong, in my respectful submission. He said that, taken in conjunction with Subsection (1), Subsection (2) merely carried out the intention of the Government's own Bill, but did it in a more long-winded manner. I think that he is wrong in that. The words in the Government Bill state: The Regulations … shall … be extended so as to be applicable for the following additional purposes. That would, in my submission, read as from the passing of the Measure.

The Attorney-General indicated assent.

Mr. Strauss

The right hon. and learned Gentleman nods to signify his assent, and if' he will turn to the language of the Amendment in Subsection (2) he will find that it states: The purposes set out in Subsection (1) of Section 1 of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, shall include—— I ask him to note the next words: and shall be deemed always to have included the following purposes. These words definitely make the Amendment which we are proposing different from what the Government have said, and also, in my submission, make it more favourable to the Government, because it means they will not only be secured after the passing of the Act with regard to the use made of the regulations and orders thereafter, but as to their use at the present moment.

For those reasons, I hope that I have shown the Committee that there really is no substance whatsoever in the suggestion that there is anything wrong technically or in substance with the Amendment which has been moved. It has all the advantages claimed by the right hon. and learned Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) and accentuated by the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery. I have endeavoured to meet the point of criticism which came from the hon. Member for King's Norton. I have confined myself to the legal considerations There is no ground whatsoever for considering that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has produced any answer to the case put forward.

Mr. Paget

The legal argument which has been advanced by the hon. and learned Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss) seems to me to be quite inconsequential. How can he say that any court could conceivably construe the words in Subsection (2) of the Amendment: Shall include and shall be deemed always to have included the following purposes as being in any way different in effect from the words shall be construed as including which are contained in the Bill? When a court has to construe a Section and there is an Act telling them how to construe it, as this Bill will do, it says "the Act shall be construed." That means that there is a statutory construction put upon the Section as from the beginning. That comes to exactly the same thing as: shall be deemed always to have included. There is no difference whatever. It strikes me that the whole argument upon this Amendment is really the greatest waste of time, because the two things mean just the same thing. This is an enabling Bill. It is a Bill that empowers—[Interruption.] This is an Amendment to a Bill. One cannot discuss an Amendment without mentioning the Bill. The Bill is an enabling Bill. What matters is, what are the powers given by the Bill? The greatest use of these powers will be made in order to mobilise the resources and the labour to meet this crisis. It would not be in Order to go into that on this Amendment. I will have an opportunity to do so later.

The other question that arises is this. Powers are granted by the 1945 Act for certain purposes; do those purposes include the economic mobilisation necessary to deal with this present crisis or do they not? That is the doubt. Whether it is said that the Amendment is to remove a doubt or whether it is put in the simpler and more economical version in the Bill seems to me to make no difference whatever. The doubt which we are removing is whether the powers can be used for dealing with this economic crisis. If the powers can be used, then they can be used for any purpose necessary to deal with the crisis. If that is so, the form of words makes no difference at all, and I respectfully submit that the Attorney-General's version on this is completely right.

4.30 p.m.

Mr. Manningham-Buller (Daventry)

I cannot agree with my political neighbour the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) that there is really no difference between the words of the Amendment and the wording of the Bill. But if, in fact, there is no difference the wording of the Amendment is much clearer. There can, I think, be no doubt between the lawyers on either side of the Committee that the regulations made under the 1945 Act will remain in force whether or not this Bill is passed into law in its present form, and the question, if I understood the Attorney-General correctly, is really whether orders under these regulations can now be made for the purposes mentioned in Clause 1 of the Bill or whether those orders under the existing regulations might be declared ultra vires. I think that was what the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General said, because otherwise I am in complete doubt as to whether there was a doubt arising, bearing in mind that the regulations already made are in force and will continue in force, and this Bill creates no power of making new regulations.

The Attorney-General

I want to make this point perfectly clear. I see no reason why there should be the slightest difference or doubt between the lawyers on both sides in regard to this simple and elementary point. There is no doubt and I think no difference between us on the point that the existing regulations and orders made thereunder remain operative and effective for one or other or all of the four purposes specified in the 1945 Act. Those purposes continue. The doubt, which is in no way removed by Subsection (1) of this Amendment, is whether those four purposes are sufficiently wide to cover the kind of matter which can be covered under the three additional purposes which we propose to add by this Bill.

Mr. Manningham-Buller

I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for so clearly stating what the doubt is, but I should have thought he would have resolved that doubt if he had read the Lord Chancellor's speech in introducing the Supplies arid Services Bill in another place in 1945. After all, the purposes of this Bill, as expressed in Clause 1, are for the purposes of: promoting the productivity of industry, commerce and agriculture; for fostering and directing exports and reducing imports, or imports of any classes, from all or any countries and for redressing the balance of trade, or, as the hon. and learned Member for Northampton said, to deal with the economic crisis. May I remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman of the arguments used by the Lord Chancellor in favour of the 1945 Bill that it was really to deal with those very same problems? He said this—and I am quoting from the Second Reading Debate made in another place—when introducing the Bill: … so long as those shortages continue the principle of 'fair shares' must go on. It is not only a question of foodstuffs."— so that foodstuffs were considered then— and clothing; there is a very great shortage of raw materials of all kinds, and the difficulty of getting the necessary raw materials is very closely bound up with the manifold difficulties relating to the dollar exchange. It is obvious that we must continue to produce at home everything that we can, both in our fields and in our factories. He then goes on to talk about the inflationary difficulties and the necessity of controlling other costs. I suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that if he examines that speech—and I do not want to weary the Committee by reading it at any length—he will see that the argument used then was for powers to enable regulations to be made for the very same purposes as are covered by Clause 1 (a and b) of this Bill. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman agrees with that, then, so far as Clause 1 (a and b) are concerned this Bill is unnecessary, because the right hon. and learned Gentleman has now agreed that any orders made under the existing regulations for the purposes set out in Clause 1 (a and b) can be made under the existing Act.

The Attorney-General

I did not say that. What I do say is that I am in substantial agreement with the view of the hon. and learned Gentleman as to the intention of the original Act, but doubts have been expressed whether the Act as actually framed is sufficiently wide to cover the three additional purposes expressed in the present Bill.

Mr. Manningham-Buller

I was dealing only with the first two purposes, because the third will be the subject of a separate Debate. We hear that doubts have been expressed without any clear exposition of those doubts. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman seriously contend, contrary to the view expressed by the Lord Chancellor, that the purposes set out in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Clause are not covered by the 1945 Act? I suggest that the real doubt is the doubt as to the purposes for which the Government want this Measure, and if the Government cannot come down on one side of the fence or the other—and I should have imagined that between last Friday and today they would have been able to make up their minds as to whether this Bill confers powers such as the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) suggested or whether it is for the resolving of a doubt—then they will soon earn for themselves the epitaph "They toil not, neither do they spin."

Mr. H. Morrison

We have had a fair discussion on this Amendment——

Sir Arnold Gridley (Stockport)

All between lawyers.

Mr. Morrison

—and I should have thought the Committee could come to a conclusion now. [HON. MEMBERS:"NO".] As hon. Members opposite like; we shall be here all right, but the Debate started with the intention that we should discuss this Amendment and the one at the bottom of the page together. The hon. and learned Member who suggested that, was subsequently thrown over by the Leader of the Opposition, and we are now debating a more limited matter, namely, the first Amendment on the Order Paper. We still have to come to the Amendment on the famous paragraph (c) of Subsection (1) which I imagine will excite a little more eloquence than this rather more reasoned one.

I am bound to say that the more I listen to this Debate, the more I am mystified as to what the Opposition is getting at, and, indeed, the Leader of the Liberal Party as well. I do not know what all the bother is about. Clause 1 (1), as drafted in the Bill, is perfectly straightforward, honest and upright, and all it says is that for the future, in the interpretation of the Defence Regulations, the making of orders and statutory instruments thereunder, the purposes can be wider and also more numerous than they have been. That is put in the most honest and straightforward language, and it adds those three purposes, which are to be found at the bottom of page 2 of the Bill, to the four purposes that are to be found in the Act of 1945-That is all there is to it. Why there has been all this bother and suspicion of hidden, dark and insurrectionary purposes I do not know. The hon. and learned Gentleman and others keep on insisting that I should say who is right about the interpretation of the Bill, myself or my hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman). The answer is perfectly simple—I am right. I represent the Government. With great respect, my hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry does not represent the Government. Of course, he has a perfect right to be heard, and to say what he likes, but he speaks only for himself, and not for His Majesty's Government.

Why all these questions, except in the hope of making a spot of bother? It is clear that the only people who speak for the Government are those who sit on the Treasury Bench. Therefore, it is ridiculous. As I have said. Subsection (1) is perfectly straightforward. I would not dissent from the description that was given of it by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton, (Mr. Paget); I think he is right. Nor would I dissent from what was said by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General. Indeed, I say myself that it is also for the removal of doubts as to the future administration of Defence Regulations. It is for both these things. In the words of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton, it is to enable the Defence Regulations and orders thereunder to be used for the three purposes set out in Clause 1 (1) of the Bill, as well as for the four purposes set out in Section 1 (1) of the 1945 Act.

Secondly, or firstly—I do not mind which; it does not matter twopence—it is to remove any possible doubts as to whether, if the regulations or orders were used for those things, they might not be ultra vires. That is the purpose of Clause 1 (1), and it does it in perfectly honest and straightforward language. I am bound to say that on grounds of constitutional doctrine and respectability—if Socialists dare to plead respectability, and I do not see why we should not, because, in these constitutional matters, we are just as respectable as hon. Members opposite—[An HON. MEMBER: "Oh."] I do not suppose the hon. Gentleman knows more than the dead what it is all about. We should not expect him to know; let him get on with his motorcar and the carburetter—this Amendment is a very doubtful document. The first paragraph of it seems to me, in the language of Karl Marx, to be tautological. It says, in fact, that: it is hereby declared that all Defence Regulations directed by Order in Council … shall remain valid and effective for all or any of the purposes set out in Subsection (1) of Section 1 of that Act. Of all the redundant, tautological nonsense I have ever read, this is the last word, and how the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition should be in a position to pass the slightest reflection on the skill, uprightness and ability of my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, when some pantomime lawyers have advised him to put down this Amendment, I do not know. It is litter verbiage; it is unnecessary; it is redundant; it is ridiculous; it is tautological, and it ought to be scrapped and put into the wastepaper basket.

In any case, who are the Opposition, even though the Government may have slipped up or acted ultra vires, to come rushing along to the Despatch Box opposite and to say, "We will get you out of your troubles. Here is an Amendment to say that anything you do is upright and honourable and within the law"? What an Opposition! Is it their business to get us out of trouble? If we are in trouble, it is our business to take the initiative in getting ourselves out of it. I should have thought it was a most curious thing for the Opposition to start rushing round in order to get the Government out of doubts as to whether they have been breaking the law for the last two years. It is altogether an "Alice in Wonderland" business.

445 p.m.

The second paragraph of the Amendment is a most amazing thing for any Parliamentary party to put forward. It is worthy of the Fascists or of the Communists. It says: The purposes set out in Subsection (1) of Section 1 of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, shall include and shall be deemed always to have included the following purposes. They are the purposes set out in this Bill. So what are the Opposition saying there? They are saying that, even if the Government have been breaking the law in respect of purposes (a) (b) and (c) as set out in this Bill, the Conservative Party want to say that not only is it all right for the future, but also for the past. That is worthy of Hitler or Mussolini, and I would be ashamed to put such a thing forward. In these circumstances, and having shown that this Amendment is not only nonsense, but pernicious nonsense, I hope that the Committee will not waste any further time upon it, but will reject it.

Squadron-Leader Fleming (Manchester, Withington)

I was rather astonished to hear the Lord President of the Council supporting his right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General in his remarks about the question of doubt. The words: For the removal of doubt. … are set out at the very beginning of the Amendment. I remember that last Thursday, when the Lord President spoke about this Bill, he mentioned the doubt which he possessed on behalf of the Government as regards the interpretation of orders or regulations which had already been made under the 1945 Act. He expressly referred to some arbitrary decisions by the courts, and said that he wanted nothing like that to occur again. Therefore, it was obvious that there was some doubt in his mind, and it was on account of that doubt that I was very pleased to see that my right hon. and hon. Friends had put down this Amendment in order to help the Lord President to get rid of his doubt, not because he happens to be a Member of the Government, but because—which to me, as an old Member of the House, is more important still—he happens to be a Member of the House, as we all are, no matter on what side we sit. It is our duty in a time of crisis to help each other to get out of the difficulty, no matter who has got us into it.

Furthermore, this Amendment refers specifically to the "valid and effective" instruments which are now in force, and it was on those instruments that the Lord President last Thursday, expressed some doubt as to whether they would be effective in the future, because they were originally passed for the transitional period from war to peace. That being so, I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on putting down this Amendment, and, if it goes to a Division, I shall have great pleasure in supporting it.

Mr. Joynson-Hicks (Chichester)

Whatever else this Debate has done, I feel quite sure that it has caused a good many of us to rejoice in seeing the Lord President of the Council back in his old form again. I have not heard him make a debating speech of that description and eloquence for a very long time. I think we all enjoy the right hon. Gentleman when he really gets going. Of course, we know there is nothing in it, but the way in which he is able to ignore argument, to leap over the facts, and to arrive at a contrary conclusion, almost literally in the same breath, is very refreshing and entertaining, and we really appreciate it very much indeed.

I wish to refer to one particular point in which he sought to rip the Amendment into oratorical shreds. The Committee will recollect how he pointed out the iniquities of the various Subsections of the Amendment, and yet, when his right hon. and learned friend the Attorney-General was speaking, he advised us that the Amendment added nothing to and detracted nothing from the original Clause. Similarly, the Attorney-General's honorary assistant behind him, when advising the Committee, specifically stated, I think, that the Amendment meant exactly the same as did the original Clause. Yet, when we have the guidance of the Lord President of the Council, he seeks to make great play with the differences that exist between the two. Which are we to believe? I find it a matter of very great difficulty.

When we started this Debate, we were all satisfied that the Lord President of the Council had certain doubts in his mind that he was anxious to remove. That went along all right until the Attorney-General came upon the scene and made it clear that the doubts which we understood the Lord President of the Council had in his mind were entirely different from the doubts which the Attorney-General advised the Committee existed. That speech rather confused the general trend of the Debate. Exactly where we are at present, after the speech of the Lord President of the Council, nobody quite knows. Doubts indubitably exist, or we should not be debating the Question at all, but to what extent they exist, and even what they are, it seems impossible to say.

I would like to bring the Committee back to the speech of the Prime Minister on Friday last, when he made it clear that the Bill was purely an enabling Bill and a Bill for the removal of doubts. We all understood what he meant. What he meant were the doubts referred to by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hillhead (Mr. J. S. C. Reid) when he moved the Amendment, as to whether this is an enabling Bill or a Bill to achieve the purposes referred to by the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) and others the other day. It is for the purpose of removing those doubts that the Amendment has been moved. If, as is admitted by the Attorney-General, the Amendment adds nothing to and detracts nothing from the Bill, and if, as the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) says, it is in substance the same as the Government's Bill, and if it is not accepted by the Government, I suggest that it is abundantly clear that the intention of the Bill is not to remove doubts but is for a far wider purpose, and that it has been introduced at present, heralded as a crisis Bill, in a spirit of mala fides which is not worthy of the Government and which deceives the people of the country.

Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)

The Opposition have done their best to introduce the greatest possible confusion as to the intentions of this Bill and the object of their Amendment. It is important to get the matter clear. What the doubts are has been stated over and over again. May I try to repeat them in language which I hope will be intelligible? The 1945 Act gave the Government power to make Defence Regulations for certain purposes set out in Section 1 of that Act. Those purposes were four, and they were defined in the Act, in relation to the position which then existed. They were: To secure a sufficiency"— of supplies and services— essential to the well being of the community; To facilitate demobilisation; To facilitate the readjustment of industry and commerce; and To assist the relief of suffering. As the Lord President of the Council rightly said, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, doubts have arisen whether regulations made under the 1945 Act are applicable to the purposes of the present crisis. Perhaps I might quote the Lord President of the Council, who said: It may be argued that the existing powers are wide enough for the purposes which I have indicated, namely, the increase of production and the balance of payments situation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th August, 1947; Vol. 441, c. 1803.] I am not referring to paragraph (c), because to do so would be out of Order, but in regard to paragraphs (a) and (b) the doubt which has arisen is in regard—if I may quote from the Bill—to "fostering and directing exports," etc. It seems to me that the doubt which His Majesty's Government had in mind was whether or not those words fostering and directing exports were covered by the purposes mentioned in the 1945 Act. It is abundantly clear that no question arises, or should arise, about the validity of all the regulations that have been made under the 1945 Act. Incidentally, let me say, in regard to the way in which the powers have been exercised, that no question has ever been raised in the House suggesting that those powers have been abused by His Majesty's Government. I suggest that there is no reason to suppose, from the Government's record of the past two years, that the powers which the House has given will be abused in the future.

The Government, by reason of those doubts, have come to ask for a further Bill to clarify the matter. That means that the Government, so far from defying, as the leader of the Liberal Party said last Friday, the principles of Parliamentary democracy, have taken a courageous course by asking for a clarifying Measure when they could easily have assumed that their existing powers were adequate. By so doing they have vindicated their respect for Parliamentary democracy and in the supremacy of the House. Those are the essential points which arise under the Bill. The Amendment, as the Lord President of the Council has said, is not only mischievous but pernicious and unnecessary, and I hope that it will be rejected.

Sir Arnold Gridley (Stockport)

As one of those whose names are appended to the Amendment, perhaps I may be allowed two or three minutes in which to intervene, particularly as L like the majority of hon. Members in all parts of the Committee, am not a lawyer. The discussion in the last hour has, with one exception, been carried on by members of the legal profession. I can only assume that as I do not possess the trade union ticket I have been ignored. I am, I am sure like most of my non-legal friends, in a state of complete confusion, because legal luminaries on opposite sides of the Committee have said things which are mutually contrariwise. Who are we non-legal Members to decide among them?

I listened to every word spoken by the Lord President of the Council last Friday and I listened to every word he said today. Two more contrariwise speeches I have never heard. I understood from the Lord President on Friday that he was in considerable doubt, and that for the purpose of removing doubt the Bill had been brought forward. I also listened to the Home Secretary, who wound up the Debate on Friday, and he left precisely the same impression upon my mind. Were we in good company or were we not? I would like to conclude what I have to say by reading what "The Times" said in its first leading article on Wednesday morning. It said: The Bill presented by the Prime Minister yesterday reflects the gravity with which the Government now regard the position. Its immediate intention is simply to extend the scope of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act of two years ago, so that the powers over the national economy already possessed by the Government will be applicable without doubt to the present emergency. I assume that "The Times" has competent legal advisers to advise those who write the articles, if they are not sometimes written by the legal people themselves. In the present state of confusion it is right that the Amendment should be pressed to a Division, and I, for one, will certainly go into the Lobby in favour of the Amendment with a complete consciousness that I am doing the right thing.

5.0 p.m.

Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe (Liverpool, West Derby)

I intervene only for a short time because I do not think that the Committee would expect the criticisms which have been made on this Amendment, which stands in my name and the names of my right hon. and hon. Friends, to go unanswered. I should like very shortly to deal with the three aspects of the matter which in my view require attention. The first point on which every one, be he lawyer or layman, wants reassurance is whether this Bill is only a piece of clarification removing doubts, or whether it is really intended to go further. It is a very easy and clear way of dealing with that difficulty to begin the legislative and enacting part of the Bill by stating that it is for the removal of doubts. If that be the purpose, as it appears from the various quotations from speeches made by the Prime Minister, the Lord President of the Council, the Home Secretary and other authorities, let us state it and let us all know where we are. If there is any objection to putting it in that way which clarifies the matter——

Mr. E. Fletcher

Surely, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is begging the question? The question is not whether there is any doubt about the effect of the existing legislation; the doubt is whether the existing legislation needs to be amplified to meet the new situation.

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe

I really do not see the misty non sequitur obfuscating the hon. Gentleman's mind. One point which has worried people is whether this Bill is merely for the removal of doubts or whether there is something behind it, something more sinister. The Lord President of the Council has said again and again, "There is nothing sinister. What are you worrying about?" The way to show that there is nothing sinister is to state, as our Amendment states, that this Bill is for clarification and removal of doubts only. That is the first point, and it seems a perfectly reasonable method of approach.

I now come to the second point, which is the number of the regulations that are affected. If I remind the Committee of the difficulty which I confess quite frankly was caused to me in this matter, and if I explain it as shortly as I possibly can, the Committee may sympathise with me in the matter. The original regulations were made under the 1939 Act. They came out in the Defence Regulations, which are now in the comparatively slim volume I hold in my hand because they have been pruned. The Attorney-General will correct me if I am wrong, but I think I have the matter right. Parts III and IV of these Regulations were the subject matter of the 1945 Act, and, in addition, the other Regulations mentioned in the First Schedule to that Act were included. That was the body of regulations which could be dealt with by Order in Council under the 1945 Act. I think that is the effect of Section 1 (4) of the 1945 Act.

We are trying to get this quite clear. As I understand it, and as we have heard from the Lord President of the Council and the Home Secretary, there is no intention and no desire that there should be any more regulations than are in existence at the moment. What do we say? We say, take the regulations, not as they stood at the time of the introduction of the 1945 Act, but as they stand today, leaving those which have been revoked, and let us confine it to stating and making quite clear that these are the regulations that we declare are in operation. That is the object of Subsection (1) of our Amendment. It is a very reasonable suggestion to make quite clear, so that he who runs may read, what regulations are affected.

The third point is that we want again to make it clear that the purposes shall be treated as extended, but whatever purposes we decide upon when we come to discuss them in a short time, we suggest that (a) and (b) should be included. The Lord President takes us to task because we have said that the purposes of Section 1 (1) of the 1945 Act shall be deemed always to have included these purposes. He says he does not like our kindness or our constitutional doctrine. The answer to our criticisms and attacks has been that the Opposition are again refusing to assist the Government in the task in front of them. We have two answers on that point. First, I cannot see how the period of transition is coming to an end and how the Government would have any difficulty in acting under Section 1 (1, c) of the 1945 Act; but let us assume that during the past week or two, when this crisis broke into even their astonished minds, they had gone an inch further. Then the Opposition come along and say, "Take not only an inch but an ell if you want to; so long as you use it bona fide for the crisis, we are prepared, to the extent to which we legislate today, to absolve you and prevent you from being enmeshed in your own difficulties." That is the attitude for which the Lord President, in his revivified speech, takes us to task. For neither the words nor the attitude have we the slightest regret or compunction, and for these words and for that attitude we shall be fully prepared to go into the Division Lobby.

Mr. John Foster (Northwich)

The Debate has shown that it is agreed on both sides that doubts exist. The Government have argued that the doubts which we are seeking to allay either are not real doubts or that we have not done this as efficiently as they have done it. The Attorney-General did not appreciate that doubts can also be created by the Bill itself and that the doubts which we seek to allay include, besides those we have mentioned, doubts created by the present wording of the Bill, which we are seeking to alter by this Amendment. If the Attorney-General looks at the wording which we are seeking to remove, he will see that the regulations which this Bill is seeking to validate shall in operation be limited expressly or by implication to the purposes of Section 1 (1) of the 1945 Act. It seems very difficult indeed to see how purposes which are laid down by an Act of Parliament in 1945 can imply a date limiting these regulations. The Government have passed a lot of regulations and obviously they must be limited to the 1945 Act.

I think great concern will be caused in the country if people understand from the Lord President of the Council that the Opposition should not help the Government in Committee. Surely, he has been in Committee when an Amendment has been put forward by the Opposition and the Minister has said, "This improves the Bill"? It has been done again and again in the great nationalisation schemes of the Government, in regard to transport, electricity and the coal industry when the Opposition, although putting forward their unalterable opposition to a nationalisation scheme, have put forward Amendments which helped the Government, and which the Government said helped them. The Lord President of the Council, in making this kind of easy debating speech, is on record as saying that in no circumstances must the Opposition help the Government, and that if the Government are in a mess they must stay in it, and do not want to profit by our advice. I think that is very ungenerous, and also very unconstitutional, because one of the great lessons of English democracy is that the Opposition acts as a kind of partner to the Government. [Interruption.] That is quite true. Often in Committee the Opposition put forward an Amendment, putting in a word or phrase which improves a Bill. That is common knowledge. Why does the Lord President of the Council, in order to catch the headlines, say that the Opposition are not trying to help the Government, and that it is no part of constitutional practice that they should do so? I think it is very wrong of him, and very misleading. I am sorry he is not here, but I ask him on a future occasion to correct that impression. It is arguable whether this Amendment is better or worse, but the Lord President ought not to have made the point that its purpose was to help the Government.

The Attorney-General said that it was tautological, platitudinous, and so on,