ARCHITECTS REGISTRATION BILL.

§ Mr. Lovat-Fraser

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This Bill is entitled: A Bill to restrict the use of the name Architect to Registered Architects and to extend the time within which practising architects may apply for registration. Last Session, when the Bill came down to the House of Commons from another place, having passed through all its stages there without amendment and without a division, it was talked out. The object of the Bill is to ensure that a person shall not call himself an architect unless he is a registered architect. In 1931 the Architects (Registration) Act was passed, and I would call the attention of hon. Members to Section 10 of that Act which states that: Any registered person shall be entitled to take and use the name or title of 'Registered Architect', but a person shall not practise under any name, title or style containing the words 'Registered Architect', unless he is a registered person, and any unregistered person who so practises or wilfully pretends to be a registered person, or takes or uses the name or title of a 'Registered Architect', or any name, title, style or description implying that he is a registered person, shall on summary conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds for the first offence and one hundred pounds for every subsequent offence. It will be seen, therefore, that the Act of 1931 provided for the voluntary registration of architects. From that Act good results have accrued. No fewer than 12,000 architects came within its purview, and an organisation was called into being which, broadly speaking, represents the whole of the profession. The Bill now before the House completes the work which was started in 1931. Clause 1 of the Bill provides that: A person, not being a registered person within the meaning of the principal Act, who after the expiration of two years from the commencement of this Act, shall take or use the name, style or title of 'Architect' or any name, style or title containing the word 'Architect' shall be deemed to have committed an offence under section ten of the principal Act and the provisions of the said section including the provisos thereto shall 1492 apply accordingly: Provided that nothing in this section shall affect the use of the designation 'Naval architect', 'Landscape architect' or 'Golf-course architect'. By Clause 2 the objects of the Act of 1931 are further advanced so as to provide a complete safeguard for those whose livelihood will be affected by the passing of the Bill. Clause 2 is as follows: Nothwithstanding anything in the principal Act, a person shall, on application made to the Council in the prescribed manner and on payment of the prescribed fee, be entitled to be registered under the principal Act, if the Council are satisfied on a report of the Admission Committee that his application for registration was made within two years after the commencement of this Act and that at the commencement of this Act he was, or had been, practising as an architect in the United Kingdom: Provided that any person aggrieved by the refusal or failure of the Council to cause his name to be entered on the Register on an application made by him under this section shall be entitled to appeal to a Tribunal to be constituted for the purpose of this Act consisting of three persons, not being members of the Council, to be appointed from time to time as follows:—

• one person to be appointed by the Lord Chancellor;
• one person to be appointed by the Minister of Health;
• one person to be appointed by the President of the Law Society;

and the decision of the Tribunal on any such appeal shall be final.

§ Mr. Robert Gibson

Is it intended that this Bill should apply to Scotland? If so, would it not be wise that there should be some representative from Scotland on this tribunal?

§ Mr. Thorne

Do those who want to register have to show any qualification before registering?

§ Mr. Lovat-Fraser

No; anybody can register. With regard to the question of the hon. and learned Member for Greenock (Mr. Gibson), we are willing to meet those who object to there not being a Scottish representative.

Those who are earning their living as architects are safeguarded by the proposal that any bona fide practising architect shall be entitled to admission to the register for two years after the passing of the Bill. The promoters, since the Bill was presented by me, have endeavoured to allay the fears of those who feel that persons holding architectural appointments 1493 under the Crown or under a local authority may be adversely affected. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent anyone such as a borough engineer or surveyor from carrying on architectural work, but, un-hiss he is a registered architect, he will not be able to call himself an architect. It is only a question of nomenclature. To safeguard the position of those who are at present in the employment of the Crown or a local authority, I am prepared to accept in Committee an Amendment with an accompanying schedule to provide that a person who holds an office the title of which is "architect," or contains the word "architect," at the commencement of the Act, shall for a period of two years be entitled to be registered under the principal Act. It is suggested that the Schedule should include chartered civil engineers, chartered structural engineers, chartered surveyors, and members of the Institution of Municipal and County Engineers.

The reason for the Bill is the protection of the public. The public do not appreciate the distinction between an architect and a registered architect. The important point is that, as the law stands to-day, there is nothing to prevent anyone, no matter who he is, from calling himself an architect. This is a fraud on the public which we ought not to allow to continue. The Bill is supported by architectural organisations comprising a total membership of some 14,000. These bodies are the Royal Institute of British Architects, representing 6,992 architect members; the 67 provincial associations allied to the Royal Institute of British Architects, with 1,386 architect members; the Faculty of Architects and Surveyors, with 582 architect members; the Architectural Association, with 1,705; the Association of Architects, Surveyors and Technical Assistants, with 387 architect members; and the Association of Representatives of "Unattached" Architects, which has 2,933 members.

§ Sir Arnold Wilson

Can the hon. Member give the address of that last society? Does it exist? I do not think it does.

§ Mr. Lovat-Fraser

I wish to impress on the House the importance of this matter, and in doing so I will read an extract from the circular which hon. Members have received—

§ Mr. Orr-Ewing

On a point of Order. Is it in Order for an hon. Member to read every word of his speech?

§ Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member appears to be fully provided with notes.

§ Mr. Lovat-Fraser

I am not an architect, and I know nothing of the technicalities of the architect's profession. I am here trying to put their case, I hope fairly, in the presence of a large number of technical Members, and I am very surprised that my hon. Friend should get up and take exception to my using the notes which are always necessary on a Bill of this kind. I wish to impress on the House one important fact, and, in doing so, I am going to read an extract from a circular which has been received by all Members of this House: The actual promoters of the Bill are not the Architects' Registration Council (which has no power under the 1931 Act to promote legislation), but a self-seeking body of persons connected with the Royal Institute of British Architects who are supremely anxious to obtain for that body a paramount position which it has been unable to obtain in an open field by fair competition with other bodies devoted to the welfare of the architectural profession. In actuality it is the Royal Institute of British Architects, and not the Registration Council, which seeks, via the Bill, monopolistic control of the profession. The true facts about that are these. The Architects Registration Council have no power under the Act to spend money in promoting this legislation. They, therefore, appointed a Parliamentary Committee, composed of representatives of all the constituent architectural bodies on the council with the exception of the opposing association, which is supported by the hon. Member for Holborn (Sir R. Tasker). The committee consists of representatives of the Royal Institute of British Architects; the Architectural Association, London, the Faculty of Architects and Surveyors, the Association of Architects, Surveyors and Technical Assistants; and the Association of Representatives of Unattached Architects. These bodies have subscribed, in proportion to their numbers, the necessary funds for expert advice in drafting this Bill for presentation to Parliament. The Bill was before the Registration Council in 1937, and its introduction was approved by them by 22 votes to four, the only dissentients being the three representatives of the association of which the hon. Member for Holborn is the leading member, and 1495 one other member who represents the views of the Institution of Municipal and County Engineers. I do not think it is necessary for me, in introducing this Bill, to say more than I have said, and I leave it now to be discussed by the House.

§ Mr. Hicks

I beg to second the Motion.

I have had some correspondence upon this Bill. I think it would be an exaggeration to say that that correspondence was non-controversial. Let us hope that the House at the end of the discussion to-day will have a clearer understanding than the parties, perhaps, have been able to impart. Their correspondence has been conducted with an incisiveness that makes a plumbers' and hot-water engineers' trade dispute fade into insignificance. I have certainly had more correspondence on this than I should have had had I been conducting a campaign for an increase in wages for a million building trade workers; but I am certain everyone has been charged with a general desire to inform the minds of Members on this matter, in order that they can give their views with knowledge and correct impartiality.

What is it all about? It is proposed that those people who qualify as architects should be registered, in order that the community, when desirous of employing their services, will feel that those who have the title have submitted their capacity to the test of examination, and that, so far as human practice has been able to evolve a test of capacity, they have proved themselves to be qualified. Is there anything wrong with that idea? I know that when builders are enlisting a bricklayer they want to be satisfied that they have a first-class commodity. They are entitled to ask that others whom they may desire to employ should also have capacity. We want to give a minimum guarantee that the individual who poses as an architect shall know something about the job, about the soil, the sub-soil, the structure, the stresses and strains, the locality, something about all the necessities for building, and, provided that he subscribes to this very modest examination paper which has been prepared, and is approved in such a way, the clients may accept him as an individual worthy to be employed. Does 1496 anybody doubt the necessity for having a qualified architect when one looks at some of the higgledy-piggledy messes—

§ Sir A. Wilson

Will the hon. Member describe the difference between an architect and an engineer?

§ Mr. Hicks

I will try to do that for the hon. Member. I am trying to engineer this Bill through.

The building industry to-day is a very busy one. The personnel of the industry is well over 1,000,000. I think it is the largest male-employing industry in this country. We require something like £400,000,000 worth of work each year in order to give employment to the personnel of the building industry. It is important, in my opinion, that an industry which employs such a personnel, and is so important in the economy of our national life, should not be allowed to develop haphazardly. Everyone on my side is constantly asking for national planning. I believe we ought to plan. We cannot get the planning we require if we allow things to pursue a haphazard and an uncontrolled development. Our past history in this is a very mixed one. We have many beautiful buildings, and many ugly ones. Some of my hon. Friends are concerned about this qualification of the architects and the examination. I would ask them, Who designed our working class houses in the East End of London, in Battersea, Kenning-ton, and other places, and in our big cities?

Who designed our slums? Somebody did. Those people whose mind, mentality and expression are reduced to such an abominable level ought to be struck off any list of people competent to design houses. These buildings are an eyesore to everyone of us to-day. Someone has designed them, producing a dreadful environment for the health, morality and mentality of our people. I get more votes as a result of new housing schemes than I do out of the slums. Someone designed our ugly factories. Our modem architects have shown us to-day that factories and workshops need not necessarily be ugly. It is a pity that those who designed our old workshops had not had an examination paper before them. Many of these workshops are illventilated, dark and damp, and many of 1497 them verminous and insanitary. These are the places in which our people have to get their livelihood.

I have been through most of the towns and cities in the country, as have also, I presume, many hon. Members. I have been to many of our mining villages, and I have seen the attempted housing of our people there. I used to wonder why these men sing, but when I look at their houses, I know why they do. It is to prevent themselves from crying. I have seen the contour of the land, with the houses all built up the side of the hill, and the roofs taking exactly the same line as the contour of the land. A fortnight ago I was privileged to be present at a housing and town-planning conference at Harrogate, and to attend a lantern lecture given by Mr. Morgan, who is the borough and housing architect for the Swansea Town Council. He showed us the development of hillsides. He is a great architect. One would imagine, according to the opinion of some people, that architects are re-actionary people. Many of them are in the Labour party, and we hope to get more of them in, and some of them sit on the benches opposite. I would refer to the lay-out schemes of Mr. Edwin Unwin, who has shown us how to develop the hillside. Instead of having the houses face to face with their backs showing down on to the lower level, he has planned whole schemes, so that when you look at the front elevation, you see the houses standing one above the other, and they present a nice sight. There is a change of as much as 8 ft. in the floor levels in the space of four houses, and unless you had a trained eye you would not be able to see the changes in the buildings and roofs and gables, and so on, forming the structure, the whole making a particularly pleasing block of buildings.

It is a fallacy to imagine that, because an architect designs a building, it will be more expensive than if it were designed by an engineer. That is not true, and cannot be supported by facts. The competent architect can save money provided the quantity surveyor will see that he puts in his bill quite properly. We are particularly interested in the need for good building. We do not want the ugly kind of buildings we see going up to-day. I am certain that none of us like to see 1498 them. When the late Lord Balfour went to America he was taken around to see the buildings there. The chief thing that they could do was to show him their buildings. We in this country are more important than would appear from the way we express ourselves, because we leave our work to speak for itself. They were showing him their buildings, and telling him how many hundreds of thousands of dollars they cost, and that they were so many floors high, and they said, "You know, they are fireproof," and the late Lord Balfour said, "What a pity!"

§ Mr. Thorne

There is a moral behind that.

§ Mr. Hicks

Yes, there is. We are town-planning now very largely in this country. We are urging the fresh location and the decentralisation of industry, and we are building many towns and habitations for our people around our industries. A number of these schemes are not housing schemes in the ordinary sense at all. They are new towns, and in building new towns we ought to try to avoid the mistakes of the past to the maximum of our ability. In building these new townships we should build the picturesque and not perpetuate the grotesque, as is the case in many places now. I am surprised at the opposition of my hon. Friend the Member for West Walthamstow (Mr. McEntee). We are excellent friends and I hope that when the Debate on this Bill is over, we shall still be friends. There is also my hon. Friend the Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant). We are proud of our craft. I am an officer of a craft union, and I am anxious to preserve our craft. I am President of the National Federation of Building Trade Operatives, and we have many craftsmen in that organisation who are particularly jealous of their craft and skill and of their fine tradition for excellent workmanship. I believe in craftsmanship and I am sure that every hon. Member does. We should encourage it to the maximum of our ability. The idea of robots, and belts, and soulless machinery was dealt with by Adam Smith many years ago in his "Wealth of Nations." Realising how soul-destroying the whole thing is, and the effect it has upon the character of the individual, we desire to cultivate craftsmanship in every walk of life.

1499 The Royal Institute of British Architects have been associated with the Architects Registration Council in circularising some information in support of this Bill. I am a member of the Council having been appointed by the National Federation of Building Trade Operatives, of which I am president. My secretary, Mr. Coppock, is also a member of the council, and he has reported to our executive council. It was only this year that my nomination was put forward and I was elected by the council to represent them upon this particular body. We did not go round and consult every man in every union, but our organisation is represented. My hon. Friend the Member for West Walthamstow, the president of his own union, who has been a member of this council for several years, and, as far as I know, there has never been any objection raised by the representative of the executive council, or by any branch of his organisation. It was only when he resigned from the Presidency of the National Federation of Building Trade Operatives and I became president that there came a change of representation. There is no attempt to make that particular side the guiding and controlling factor. The fact is that we are represented on the council, and I, as one of its representatives, am desirous of seeing this Bill go through, because I genuinely and seriously believe that it would benefit the community at large.

There may be instances of men who, through lack of qualifications, are not able to stand the test of examination. I am sorry for the individual who is not able to stand that test, but it is much better that he should not be successful in getting through than that the community should suffer the effects of his incompetence.

§ Mr. Orr-Ewing

Does the hon. Member mean that he is not able to pay the very heavy expenses of qualification?

§ Mr. Hicks

I will deal with that matter later, and there are other hon. Members who can also explain it. The relationship between architects, builders and operatives used to be of a very stilted character. The architect was regarded as the aristocrat, the man who had great authority, and when we used to see him marching on to the job we had a sort of 1500 fear and trembling. We used to talk to each other on work days, but on Sundays it was never possible to recognise each other on the pavement or in the park. I am thankful to say that we have grown out of that. There has grown up in the building industry a recognition among architects, employers, material manufacturers, merchants and operatives that we need to pool our experiences and ideas so that the industry may be better able to deal with the rapid changes and innovations which the community is constantly demanding, and be able to deal with them in a more efficient way. Is there anything wrong in that? The Royal Institute of British Architects is an institution of over 100 years old. Is there anything wrong in pooling experiences of such organisations and seeing what can be done? It is surely a good thing that our joint contributions should be put to greater service for our people and for the community in general.

You cannot make an architect in a night. A man must have considerable qualifications if he is to become an architect. It requires years of training. It is not the same as in politics, when one night one may be a trade unionist official and next day a Member of Parliament. I have on previous occasions tried to enlist the support of hon. Members opposite on these questions, and although I have had their sympathy I have not had their votes. When we have gone from this House we have continued our efforts in order to raise the standard of quality in the building of houses. I have here the copy of a certificate of the National House Builders Registration Council, which shows that, in the first place, the house has been architecturally planned, and that it has been built under conditions of labour that are nationally negotiated between the representatives of the building trade operatives and the representatives of the employers. There is an examination as to the location and nature of the site, the stresses and strains and what foundation must be put in for carrying the superstructure. There is also examination as to general amenities and sanitation. The house is inspected six times during the process of construction, and if at the end of the period any fracture takes place within two years, it is repaired free of cost. It has been worth while to bring that about, and I quote it as an illustration of what we 1501 have been attempting to do by joint consultations of architects, employers, operatives and clients. We have brought them together for the purpose of discussing these things, and our desire is that good results should flow generally from these steps.

We see people indulging in sharp practices, calling themselves architects, drawing out plans, taking advantage of shady finance, getting the plans through, employing people of shady character and then outraging all our conditions. What discipline have the architects over such people at the present time? They can call themselves architects and go on with their sharp practices, but if they were registered and such malpractices were being pursued, they would be reported to their association, and their conduct would have to be amended or they would be removed. It is, therefore, a surprise to me that any trade unionists should object to the qualifications which we are seeking to establish. I shall be willing to listen to the points of view that they put, and to do my best to meet the difficulties which they bring forward. I have given an outline of the sort of work that we have been trying to do from which the community will benefit. The poor people who buy or rent a house under the present system are hedged round with liabilities and find very often that they are spending whatever bit of money they can afford in maintenance charges, let alone capital charges. We want to be able to help these people and to give to the general community such safeguards as would be provided if a standard qualification such as we advocate were established.

With regard to the final examinations and the position of the Architects' Registration Council, the question is asked, why do they not conduct the examination themselves? The answer is that there are a number of institutions which they accept as being authorities who can examine. I will read the names: The School of Architecture, the Schools of Architecture of Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, the Welsh School of Architecture, the Liverpool School of Architecture, the School of Architecture for the universities of Manchester and Sheffield, and the Armstrong College in the County of Durham. There is a long list of institutions which are prepared to conduct the examinations. I do not know whether the association with which the 1502 hon. Member for Holborn (Sir R. Tasker) is associated has held any examinations lately. I have seen their syllabus, a very nice syllabus, for 1936 and 1937, but I have not seen their syllabus for 1935–36.

The facts which have been supplied to me show that in the examinations of the Royal Institute of British Architects, out of 215 successful candidates in 1936, 128 trained themselves by attending evening schools, while the remainder, 87, studied at home or through correspondence classes. What foundation is there for the suggestion that there is any monopoly on the part of the Board. The idea that we are going to set up a monopoly exists only in the imagination, not in fact. I shall have to deal with the finance later, otherwise hon. Members may say that I am shirking it. Once an individual has qualified by passing the minimum examination—I will not read it out, but I am certain hon. Members will agree that it is the very minimum for which we should ask—but once he has been able to pass that examination he is not compelled to join any association. He need not be a member of the Royal Institute of British Architects, there is no compulsion. It is only a question of registration so that the community shall be protected by having a guarantee, as far as it can be provided, that the individual who holds an architect's qualification has passed the standard which has been set up. There are 75 persons on the board of the Architects Registration Council, but the various members of the organisation and their different qualifications have been repeated so many times that it is unnecessary for me to repeat them again.

There is also the Regent Street Polytechnic, which has recently made a formal application. I know one of its distinguished members, Mr. Bennett, who has run the school of architecture there for many years. I was not a student there, but I have been invited on many occasions to attend technical schools, and their prize distribution, and got the usual cup of coffee and vote of thanks at the end of the proceedings. The Regent Street Polytechnic has made a formal application, and at the present time is compiling particulars to submit to the board. I am a member of that board, which I hope will be some guarantee to hon. Members. The board will decide whether the mini- 1503 mum examination is right. We have a right to ask the people who know to lay down the qualifications necessary, so that the community shall be properly and effectively protected. The Ministry of Health is represented, and so are the Office of Works and the Board of Education, in order to give a guarantee that they are going to do the things that are right.

My own borough council of Woolwich have sent me a letter asking me definite questions about this. They have, it seems, apprehensions in the matter. I am rather surprised, because they are a very intelligent borough council. There is a Labour majority on the Council, and has been for many years, and they have a borough architect, a registered architect, but at the moment they are wondering what is going to happen in the event of his leaving or dying. The last time I saw him he was in an excellent state of health. Those who have had the privilege of going through my constituency, and also that of the Minister of Health will agree that the borough council has put up first-class houses. I think they have put up better houses in my hon. Friend's constituency than they have in mine, for which I am a little sorry, but glad the occupants have such fine accommodation. In their communication the borough council say: Architectural work of a special character should be carried out by their own qualified officers who have a more intimate knowledge of the particular requirements than is possessed by the majority of private practitioners. I expect that is true. There are a large number of private practitioners who do not possess the necessary qualifications who are masquerading as architects. We propose to remedy that at the earliest opportunity with the aid of the hon. Member for West Walthamstow and the hon. Member for Holborn. They go on to say: The borough council has its own engineer as a registered architect. There is nothing to prevent them if they are so inclined having a borough engineer and a borough surveyor. There is nothing to prevent them, if they are satisfied with the qualifications, having a borough surveyor and engineer to do their planning. We say that if a man poses as an architect he should accept the 1504 minimum standard of examination in order that his work should be appreciated. Then there is the question of how the money has been spent. The hon. Member who moved the Bill referred to the generous efforts made to have an Amendment of the Bill and a Schedule to the Bill, which should include people who are now under the heading, chartered civil Engineers, chartered structural Engineers, chartered Surveyors and members of the Institute of Municipal and County Engineers. I will not read the proposed Amendment, but I think it is necessary to deal with the question of finance. There has been a good deal of innuendo—at least it has been whispered in my ear and I have had post cards and circulars on the matter—that during the first five years while the reserve is being built up the whole of each year's income cannot be paid in grants. An extended series of scholarships has been arranged.

Most hon. Members will remember that after 1931, when the Bill was passed, it took a couple of years before there was an opportunity to utilise any money for the purpose of scholarships. It will be understood that as there were 13,000 architects throughout the country, having no general registration, an enormous amount of work was involved in getting them registered. Hon. Members who know anything about registration in the dental profession and so on will understand that a large amount of money had to be spent in setting up a council and in carrying on the necessary work of registration. It is in this case that they have attempted to get Parliament to agree to postpone the operation of the second half of the registration fee for a period of two years.

The scholarship awards in 1935 amounted to £156; in 1936, £514; in 1937, £806; and next year the amount available will be £1,156 and in 1939, £1,500. It is estimated that the reserve at the end of 1939 will be £3,500. Consequently, out of a revenue of £10,000 during that period, £7,700 will either have been distributed in grants or set aside as a reserve for future grants. A balance-sheet has been presented every year, and at every quarterly meeting a financial statement has been given. To imagine that there has been some hiding of finance or that someone has been dipping 1505 his fingers into the pool and that no one has watched him is an unworthy innuendo. The financial statement has been made at the quarterly meetings, the balance-sheet has been presented every year, the constituent parties are entitled to have a copy of the balance-sheet, the Press has been represented at each of the meetings and has had available a copy of the balance-sheet. Therefore, to say that there has been underhand work is not right, and it creates unworthy prejudice and bad feeling. I say that such statements are completely unfounded. I do not think I ought to say more now. Unfortunately I shall not be able to reply to the Debate, as I can at my trade union meetings, and I shall have to hear many things said which I shall not be able to correct.

§ Mr. Orr-Ewing

Will the hon. Member deal with the point which I put to him before about the cost of training?

§ Mr. Hicks

The hon. Member can get some advice on that from his Front Bench which will be better than the advice I can give him. I would like to say that the reasonableness of the Registration Council in meeting all the parties is beyond any possibility of doubt, provided there is a willingness of approach, and a willingness to adapt existing circumstances to the future, with a view to building up a general standard of which everyone in the House and in the country may be proud. The inside of a building belongs to the individual, but the outside of a building belongs to the public. The public has the right to ask that a client, whoever he may be, shall employ a competent man. Not only ought he to know everything about the building, but he ought to be in a position to advise the client, even sometimes against the client's wish, as to the nature and character of the monstrosity which the client would erect if he had an opportunity of doing so. I regard the face of Britain as something to protect and not as something to despoil, and I hope the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.

Sir Robert Taskers

I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question, to add the words "upon this day six months."

I would like to answer some of the questions which have been put to me 1506 either directly or indirectly by the hon. Members who moved and seconded the Motion for the Second Reading of the Bill. The hon. Member for Lichfield (Mr. Lovat-Fraser) asked a question as to what qualifications a man must possess to be a registered architect. I would draw his attention to Section 10 of the 1931 Act; and Section 6 which sets out very fully the qualifications for architects' registration. Section 6, Sub-section 1a, b, c and d, and Sub-sections 2, 3 and 4, fully cover that matter, and if the hon. Member will look at that Act, he will find all the particulars about the standard of qualifications. The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) asked me a direct question which I will answer. He wanted to know whether the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors hold examinations. The answer is in the affirmative. They have held examinations regularly for the last seven years, the last examination being in November of this year. The syllabus to which the hon. Member referred, and which I gather receives his commendation, has been in operation for the last four years.

§ Mr. Mander

How many candidates went in for the examination?

§ Sir R. Tasker

I am afraid I cannot answer that question, because I am not very intimately connected with the detailed work of that body.

§ Mr. Mander

Is it not rather important?

§ Sir R. Tasker

I am not a member of the examining body, and although I am an ex officio member of the committee, I never attend the meetings. If the hon. Member attaches any importance to the matter, I will endeavour to get the information for him before the end of the Debate. This is a highly controversial Bill. It is a Bill which seeks to violate the undertaking which was given in 1931. It seeks to impose the condition that the word "architect" of itself shall not be employed. The first duty of the Standing Committee which considered the 1931 Bill was to find a definition, and ultimately it provided that people who were registered under the 1931 Bill should be known as "registered architects." Therefore, primarily this Bill is an attempt to get the House to reverse its decision of 1931.

The hon. Member for East Woolwich is a practical man. He attaches great 1507 value to examinations, as I do. The hon. Member compared present-day architects with architects of days gone by. When I asked one of these new-fashioned architects "Why do you put a frog in a brick?" I received the unexpected answer "You cannot pull my leg." I might just as well have been talking to him in Latin or reciting the Iliad in ancient Greek. He knew nothing at all about it. My next question was "Do you know the difference between a handsaw and a half rip saw?" and his reply was "I think you are trying to be facetious." I attach the greatest importance to the practical side of building. As a matter of interest and of history, I may tell the House that my father before me, I and my sons were compelled to work in mine, quarry, brickfield and shop before we were allowed to go into the office to make those pretty drawings, many of which are fit only for Christmas cards. I was a little disturbed about the hon. Member's reference to a modest examination paper. May I ask my hon. Friend to what examination paper he was referring?

§ Mr. Hicks

The final examination in 1937 of the Royal Institute of British Architects.

§ Sir R. Tasker

It seems a rather left-handed compliment to the Royal Institute of British Architects to suggest that the paper for their final examination is to be regarded as modest. I should have thought if they considered that the passing of the examination conferred the hallmark of knowledge, ability and understanding of the complicated business of building, they would not set a modest paper. I can assure the hon. Member that I would not describe either the preliminary intermediate or final examination papers of the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors as modest.

§ Mr. Hicks

I do not want to make any play upon words. The reason why I said it was modest was because I believe that it represented the minimum qualifications which any individual posing as an architect should possess.

§ Sir R. Tasker

That is a matter of opinion. I suppose we shall never agree on the subject of examinations. One will think of the academic side and another 1508 of the practical side and we can never agree on that subject any more than on art. But my own view is that a man ought to know something about material, construction, design, proportion and the like. My hon Friend opposite said that he had obtained his information from his friend Mr. Coppock. I think I can describe Mr. Coppock as our mutual friend because he and I have been colleagues for many years on the London County Council. He is a very busy man and as I have found myself, in relation to the association of which I am vice-president, that it is almost impossible to attend regularly. I am not surprised that the information which Mr. Coppock has been able to give is based upon the minutes which he has received. I entirely agree that technical training is invaluable, and one of the complaints against the Architects' Registration Council is that, through the Board, they refuse to recognise any technical school or college or any body uncontrolled by them. It may be news to the Seconder of the Motion that the schools in the list with which he dealt with are entirely dominated by the Royal Institute of British Architects—every one of them. That is one of the complaints against this Bill—that it is an insidious attempt to get something which will lead to something else. I shall deal with that point in greater detail later.

With regard to the point which was made about the outside of a building belonging to the general public, I suppose the inside of a building belongs to the man who pays for it. May I point out that under the Town and Country Planning Act local authorities now have some voice in the design of the outsides of buildings? The hon. Member referred to certain buildings and asked who designed such buildings. Presumably architects designed them, and it is to be remembered that many buildings which to-day are slums were in their time very good buildings. In my own constituency, New North Street, Harper Street, Devonshire Street and Gloucester Street were residences of the aristocracy 100 years ago, but they are little better than slums today. But for the resistance of the London County Council the Holborn Borough Council would have rebuilt in certain areas in order to re-house our brothers and sisters who to-day have to live three and four, and sometimes five, in a room. But land is so expensive that 1509 there was a difficulty with the central authority and we have had to abandon scheme after scheme.

Would this Bill make any alteration as regards badly designed buildings? I suppose there are not fewer than 100 Members of this House who have served on municipal authorities. Not one of them will deny that a very large percentage of the plans submitted to an authority bear no designation to show that they are the work of architect, engineer, surveyor or anybody else. As long as those plans conform to the Building Act of that town or city, if there is a Building Act applicable to it, or to the relevant by-laws, the local authority has no power to refuse them. There is nothing in this Bill to prevent a man doing in the future what is done now. As long as plans conform to the by-laws, the local authorities pass them. Then, what has happened in the past with regard to mass production? An architect designs houses for a speculative builder. The speculative builder considers the design too expensive; he alters it here and there; the architect has no control over it, just as he has had no control in the past, and he will have no control in the future under this Bill.

I think I have now dealt with the points raised by the hon. Member opposite in his very delightful speech, and I now turn to the Bill itself. It is a Bill of misrepresentation. It is a boycotting Bill. May I call special attention to that word "misrepresentation?" Any lawyer can tell you and any architect ought to be able to tell you, that misrepresentation by a professional man acting as an architect is fraud. If an architect misrepresents something to his client, he can recover no fees, and can be made to refund any fees which he has received under that commission. Clause I is an attempt to deny to certain people the right to use the name "architect." I cannot understand the inconsistency of those who say that they want to improve this art, and who at the same time want to reopen the door which was closed in 1931. Why do they want to let in people, all and sundry, under precisely the same terms and conditions as under the 1931 Act?

§ Mr. R. Acland

What would the hon. Member have said if we had left out of the Bill a Clause allowing men to register as architects in the next two 1510 years? He would have been very much more fierce.

§ Sir R. Tasker

I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) knows all about it. He has been a student for three or four years. I, unfortunately, have been practising for 44 years, and I would not pretend to know as much about the Architects Registration Council as he does, because he became a member about two years ago. I have been a member ever since its inception.

§ Mr. Acland

Will the hon. Member—

§ Sir R. Tasker

I think I might be allowed to go on without interruption. I have already pointed out that this Bill is a violation of the undertaking given in 1931. It was because of that undertaking that it was given a Second Reading, as hon. Members will see if they look at the minutes of evidence before the Select Committee. I have brought a pile of evidence here, because I am going to rely on documentary evidence and on documentary evidence alone. A great deal of literature has been issued to Members of Parliament in connection with this matter, and I do not know whether other hon. Members feel as I do, but I feel extremely annoyed about it. I think it is a waste of time and energy. If hon. Members will look at the beginning of the evidence given before the Select Committee, they will see that the undertaking given in this House was made good before the Select Committee, and that was their first business. That Bill was, without dispute, promoted, paid for, and engineered by the Royal Institute of British Architects. There is no question of anybody else in it. Nobody has called in question their good faith, and I may say, with regard to the Royal Institute of British Architects, I want to make my position clear, that it is the oldest architectural institution in this country, that it has a very fine past, and that it has on its rolls the names of many eminent men and brilliant architects.

I say at once that if the Royal Institute of British Architects had only carried out the conditions of its charter, there would have been no need for the Bill of 1931, the Bill of 1934, or this Bill, there would never have been any opposition to the Institute, there would have been no 1511 Society of Architects, there would have been no Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors, there would have been no Institute of Registered Architects and there would have been no Faculty of Architects. While I do not want to blame individual members of the Institute, I think it is a pity that more eminent men could not find the time to devote their attention to the affairs of the Institute or from among all those members who have passed an examination—and there must be 50 per cent. of them who have passed an examination. After all, however, I have to face facts as I find them, I recognise that it is the business of the members of that Institute whether they intervene or not and whether they let a small body—and it is only a very small body—within that Institute engineer this Bill. The general body of members must be responsible for the acts of the smaller body within the Institute.

I beg the House not to regard anything that I say which may sound derogatory to the Royal Institute of British Architects as meaning that I am pointing the finger of scorn. The great majority of the members of that Institute, conduct an honourable profession in an honourable way, but I do take the very gravest exception to the actions and the attitude of a small group within the Institute and to their methods of attempting to secure this Bill. Their attitude or that of their friends is outrageous. Let me give an example. Member of this House have been attacked by them. Their honour has been attacked. I myself am a victim of their spleen. It has been circulated, not only in this House, but among my clients, that I am interested in people supplying building materials. That is the sort of weapon that is being employed, I am now being asked whether it is a fact that I am interested in this way. It so happens that one of the conditions of a partnership in my firm, made before I became a partner, is to the effect that no principal or partner in the firm shall ever secure, purchase, or acquire any share or interest in any firm supplying any building materials, and if he does, his partnership automatically ends. That is my answer to my traducers. You cannot find out who this scoundrel is who traduces your good name. I have 1512 endeavoured to do so, but my efforts have been in vain, and there I will leave it.

§ Mr. Fleming

Can the hon. Member tell us, on that important point, how it has come to his ears that he is being traduced in this way? Are there any documents?

§ Sir R. Tasker

No, Sir, but anyone practising as an architect, or surveyor, or civil engineer knows what goes on. It is said, "Is it true that you are interested in So-and-so? I am told that you are constantly specifying this firm, that firm, or the other firm." That sort of thing is inevitable. You have to exercise your own judgment. You have to rely upon your experience and on what you consider are the right firms to employ. I assure the hon. and learned Member who interrupted me that I have left no stone unturned to try and find out who is the author of these outrageous suggestions.

§ Mr. Ammon

Is it the suggestion of the hon. Member that that is being used to influence Members of this House?

§ Sir R. Tasker

I think the hon. Member might ask other Members of the House whether any pressure has been brought to bear upon them. He might find it profitable, because he may find that other men have been approached and that there have been methods of intimidation. I would ask the hon. Gentleman to be patient and to leave it to other Members to relate their experiences if they so wish.

§ Mr. H. Strauss

Will my hon. Friend make it clear that he has no reason to believe that this has anything to do with the Royal Institute of British Architects?

§ Sir R. Tasker

I have already said that I regard the majority of the members of the Institute as honourable men. I have said there is a small group of people whom I regard as unscrupulous who do not hesitate to make use of any weapon in order that they may belittle people who are opposed to this Bill.

§ Mr. Strauss

Will my hon. Friend say whether he has any reason to believe that any member of the Royal Institute of British Architects is responsible for this slander?

§ Sir R. Tasker

I am not charging the council, but I am assuming that the authors of this charge belong to the Royal Institute of British Architects.

§ Mr. Strauss

On what ground?

§ Sir R. Tasker

The hon. Gentleman seems to imagine that he is a kind of Old Bailey cross-examiner. I suggest that I might be allowed to proceed without any further interruptions.

§ Mr. Bossom

This is a very serious charge which is being made against a perfectly reputable body. I think that my hon. Friend ought to justify his statement or withdraw.

§ Sir R. Tasker

I am much obliged for my hon. Friend's advice, but this seems such a personal matter that I suggest we get on with the business. The object of the Bill is to restrict the use of the word "architect." I have here a document which was referred to by the mover and the seconder, and which is supposed to represent the views of something like 14,000 men. There is a reference here to the Association of Representatives of Unattached Architects and to 2,933 members. I do not know from where they get the 2,933 members. It is pure imagination that there is any such body in existence. Then it says that the Royal Institute of British Architects represents 6,992 architect members. In 1936 there were 7,731. Where have the 800 members gone? Are they dead and is there nobody to replace them? As to the allegation of the Seconder about examinations, it appears that of the 7,731 members of the Institute, only 4,469 have passed any examination. That is their concern and not my business, but if we are going to insist on examinations, let everybody be examined. I frankly say that I would not like to go through an examination to-day because I should be hopelessly ploughed, but I do not think that it would affect my practice.

There is no definition of architects in the Bill. What does it mean? It means to-day a registered architect. It is to mean to-morrow a member of the Royal Institute of British Architects. When the 1931 Act came into force the first thing the Royal Institute of British Architects did was to seize control of the council. They next seized control of the Board of 1514 Architectural Education. They predominated on the council, and it became known as "the gramophone." If something was brought up by a member of the Institute there was a chorus of "Agreed." You might just as well have had a gramophone. If anybody from my Association made a suggestion it was either shelved or hopelessly defeated. This was a body supposed to represent all parties. When the council was formed, it became a hotbed of intrigue, and instead of concerning itself with architects it concerned itself with the glorification and predominance of the Royal Institute of British Architects. If it had carried out its job there would have been no objection. I suggest that this Bill is an attempt to deride the decision of Parliament in 1931. It also derides Parliament in regard to the Bill presented in 1927.

Is there any truth in the statement, so freely circulated in the House with a view to getting the Bill through, that the Home Office had signified their approval and that the Home Secretary would give it his blessing? I cannot imagine either a Minister, or his Under-Secretary, or an official being so indiscreet as to indicate either approval or disapproval of a private Member's Bill of so highly controversial a nature as this one. Those who are opposing the Bill believe that there should be no barriers except those imposed by a man's ability and industry—that if a man has the ability and the industry, there is no reason in the world why he should not practice as an architect and be successful. But I will resist, and continue to resist, this scheme, which shuts out all technical schools and all technical training, because I assert here and now that the R.I.B.A., through the Board, have only approved schools, which are dominated by the R.I.B.A.—the Universities alone excepted. Of course, it would be very difficult to say that a man who had obtained the degree of Bachelor of Architecture or Master of Architecture at a University is not fit to be qualified. If the House were to pass a Bill like this, what would happen to architects who have been practising for 20 or 30 years and who are distinguished in the profession but who say, "I do not want to be registered, I will not be registered"?

§ Mr. Grant-Ferris

Cannot they be registered within two years on supplying sufficient evidence that they have been practising?

§ Sir R. Tasker

If the hon. Member will read the Act of 1931 he will find that this Bill is only extending the time. If a man objected to be registered between 1931 and 1933, and has the same objection to-day, it is no answer to say to him, "You have become registered within two years". It is no argument to say to a man, "You ought to be registered because midwives and people who sell firearms are registered." Why should architects be compelled to be registered? This Bill is an attempt to compel a man to do something. At present it is optional, if this Bill be passed it will be obligatory. Barristers, solicitors and accountants do not have to register. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Doctors do not have to register. [Interruption.] We do not interfere with the osteopath, except to say "You cannot call yourself a doctor."

§ Mr. Bossom

Will the hon. Member say where he finds in the Bill anything which compels any architect to register?

§ Sir R. Tasker

I never said so. A man will be permitted to practice as an architect after the Bill passes, but unless he is registered he cannot call himself an architect. A man who has been calling himself an architect for 20 or 30 years will be put out of practice. Does my Hon. Friend suggest that a man who is a gold medallist of the Royal Institute of British Architects should be put out of practice because he is not registered and refuses to register, because that is the effect of this Bill? If he wants the names of a gold medallist I will supply him. We are told that this Bill has received universal support, but that is not true. A document issued, presumably, by the Royal Institute of British Architects, though there is no name on it, includes apparently the whole of the architects who are members of it, but I will beg leave to read a letter from one who is a Fellow of the Royal Institute of British Architects: As an associate by examination since 1906 and a member after the necessary qualifying period of private practice since 1917, I feel strongly that the Royal Institute of British Architects have broken faith with me in supporting this Bill. In 1906 we were informed 1516 that all future fellows would have to qualify. However, after the War, fellowships were given away. When the amalgamation of the societies took place we were told that this was the final stage in the degradation of the qauifications. Then came the first Registration Act, under which any house agent who copies plans for a builder can claim to be practising as an architect and become a registered architect. That Act, however, still left to those like myself the option of refusing to class themselves in that category. Now, however, that right is to be taken away and we are to be compelled to enter into the fold, and will have, without doubt, to describe ourselves as registered if we are to obtain any work. We are forced to couple our names with the type described above. You can make any use of this letter you like. That is from a Fellow of the Royal Institute of British Architects. I admit that I have had far more letters from members of the Institute in my constituency who have asked me to support this Bill than from members who oppose it, but I have replied to each one that I am unable to support the Bill. I think that I understand it, and I think that they do not. Another man writes: The Bill gives a sense of false security, since all matters on which the public will require to be protected have to be overhauled by the engineering profession. Now I come to the 1934 Act. My hon Friend the Member for East Woolwich has called attention to the finances; it is in connection with the finances that feelings of resentment and opposition have been aroused. That Bill was introduced in a very short speech of about half-a-dozen lines. The mover assured his brother Members of Parliament that it was agreed to by all concerned in architectural education, though actually it was not. Hon. Members know that there has been opposition from more than one quarter. What was the pretext for depriving the boy or girl of something which had been earmarked for them? I quote the actual wording of a statement on the subject: I fear there was an oversight in that the finance for running the council and the committee was not provided during the first few months of its operation. This Bill, by universal consent of all those concerned in educational registration, makes that omission good. I call the attention of the House to the pronouncement that the finances were not provided for during the first few months. That is perfectly true; when members of the council endeavoured to ease the situa- 1517 tion a deaf ear was turned to them. The chairman of the Finance Committee let a couple of attics to the Registration Council, but the Council were offered offices for nothing, and no expense need have been incurred. The council indulged in shorthand notes of the whole of their proceedings and had them transcribed. That was quite unnecessary; thus money was dissipated and disappeared. I ask the House to take note of the date when this declaration was made. It was 7th June, 1934. It was not a case of "the first few months," because two years and five months had elapsed, and the very moment that declaration was made there was over £3,000 in the coffers of the Architects Registration Council. There was the sum of £1,400 which had been earmarked. There was another £1,900, making over £3,300 in hand.

That body came to this House. The Bill, having been promoted in another place, came before us. The House passed it, because no hon. Member could think that any one would make such a gross misrepresentation. What happened then? Three months afterwards at the next council meeting, when the House had relieved the Registration Council of their obligation to the poor boys and girls, involving thousands of pounds, we were told that we owed the Royal Institute of British Architects £1,500 and that we had better get rid of the debt at 4½ per cent. interest. That we proceeded to do. I hope that the Member who introduced this Bill in another place realises how he was deceived, how he was duped, and what he has done for the poor boys and girls. If that money were in hand and we owed £1,500 to the Royal Institute of British Architects, why could the money not have been borrowed from the scholarship fund? At the same meeting they were able to borrow money from the scholarship fund in order to give a gratuity to one of the architects. This they borrowed at 4 per cent.

The Bill is an attempt to get something through which is undisclosed, and I cannot support it. The ex-Prime Minister talked about going into the shadows; he and I are about the same age, and if I knew that, when I sat down, I was going to be gathered in by the Great Reaper, my last words would be: Do not encourage people to do something wrong, something which would be dishonouring to a noble profession.

§ Mr. McEntee

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do not propose to speak very long, but I hope I can induce hon. Members to give more consideration to the Bill than they appear to have given up to now. I oppose the Bill because I am a working man, and because it proposes to close another profession to working-class people. That is how its proposals must work out, and I hope to give evidence to prove what I say. If the Bill becomes law, the position will remain in many respects what it is at present, that is, the Royal Institute of British Architects will dominate, as they do now, the council under which examinations are held, the nature of the examinations, the fees paid for them, the tuition in connection with examinations and every possible move that was made in the original Bill. We have been told that the council consists of 75 members, of whom 46 are members of the Royal Institute of British Architects. The examinations are set by them and they will lay down the examination fees. In every way, a close corporation will be created, under the dominance of the Royal Institute of British Architects, to prevent working-class boys and girls—I do not see why girls should not come into it—entering the profession as freely as heretofore. I am not interested in any dispute that has taken place between the differing or opposing organisations within the profession, and I am not opposed to an examination. Registration may be necessary; possibly a good case can be made out for it, and I have an open mind on the point, with an inclination towards it. I will not go any further than that.

§ Mr. Fleming

Will the hon. Member explain how it will become difficult for working class boys to enter the profession?

§ Mr. McEntee

I am going on to explain. Please let me conduct my own case. When registration and examination are to be dominated by one organisation, the principle is wrong, and ought not to be approved by the British House of Commons. The creation of vested interests in the profession will make it more difficult for ordinary working class boys and girls to get into the profession in future. If registration is adopted, the fee should be purely nominal, but will it be so? The 1519 R.I.B.A. can fix what fee they like. I am very suspicious, because of my experience in the past of professional organisations generally, and particularly in regard to this professional organisation because of its conduct, that the fee will be made prohibitive and the examinations conducted, and entrants for it selected, in such a way as to make it almost impossible for working class boys and girls to get in. After all, why are there selected organisations for the examinations if it is not the intention of the promoters of the Bill to keep the profession select and only to admit into it those whom they want in it? There are technical colleges, such as the Regent Street Polytechnic, whose examination is not accepted. Why?

§ Mr. Bossom

Two A.R.A.'s, both great architects who have been recently elected by the Royal Academy, are FF.R.I.B.A., and got into it through studying at the Regent Street Polytechnic.

§ Mr. McEntee

That proves nothing. There is always an exception which proves the rule. The rule is that in future architects have to be trained by selected organisations, and not one of those organisations is a technical college. Further, grants for scholarships are given only to those who enter by that door.

§ Mr. Grant-Ferris

Out of 250 successful candidates for the R.I.B.A. in 1936, 108 trained themselves by attending evening schools.

§ Mr. McEntee

I am well aware of that. The figures have already been given, and if the hon. Member had been here he would have heard them, and would not have found it necessary to waste the time of the House. The fact that they were admitted through a technical college has nothing to do with the case. They had to enter by the examination of the selected bodies to which I have made reference. Grants are made only from the Fund that is created under Parliamentary grants, and are made only to those who submit to the examination of 13 bodies, every one of which is controlled by the R.I.B.A. Will any hon. Member tell me whether there is one of these 13 bodies which is not under the control of the R.I.B.A.? And can he tell me of anybody who has got in except through those examinations?

1520 The fact that this Bill is being introduced to-day is a proof that the Bill of 1931 was not a success. It has failed in many respects. One respect in which it has failed is finance. When it was introduced this House was misled by the promoters. Hon. Members who voted for it voted under a promise given that 50 per cent. of the fees collected would be paid out of the fund for giving scholarships to poor boys. Was that done? No. If it had been, why was it necessary in 1934 to promote another Bill asking Parliament to waive the conditions of the 1931 Bill and to allow the money to be used—for what? Not for scholarships, but for the purpose of paying exorbitant expenses to the people conducting the examinations under the Act. In regard to finance, it is as well we should know something about what was done in the succeeding years after Parliament had permitted them to use the money between 1931 and 1934 in a way that was not contemplated in the Act of 1931. In 1934 the fund was charged with £308 for administrative expenses and £156 10s. for scholarships. Did the House contemplate that in 1931? I venture to say it did not. In 1936, £514 was awarded in scholarships, and £550 was charged to administrative expenses. If that is the kind of finance that this House desires to support, I, at any rate, want to make my protest against it; it was never the intention of the House in 1931 that the money should be spent in that way.

The other point I want to make is in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), who has had to go away. He told us a very harrowing story with regard to the conditions prevailing in slum houses and slum factories. Incidentally he told me a story that I hope to be able to use on another occasion. I agree with him, and I think most Members will agree with him, in all that he said about the bad architecture in those houses. But will this Bill prevent these bad architects from still practising? Cannot any man still register, regardless of qualifications, who is to-day practising as an architect, or even who comes in between now and the time when the Bill comes into operation? My hon. Friend's reply was, "According to the Act, yes, he can register." So that if we have incompetents now, we shall have incompetents in the future. The Bill will not exclude 1521 them. The supporters of the Bill argue, quite legitimately, that after an interval of two years the Bill will commence to prevent incompetents from coming in in future. With that I entirely agree, but in the meantime every incompetent now practising has only to go and register and pay the registration fee, whatever it may be. The main argument that I have heard, and the one that has most influence with me, is that the Bill, if passed, will prevent a person who is not a qualified architect from passing in future. But under the Bill all he has to do is to apply to the Registration Council at any time within the next two years and he is admitted.

§ Mr. Bossom

He has to submit his credentials, and if the council are not satisfied, and do not admit him, his case has to be submitted to an independent tribunal.

§ Mr. McEntee

No. I ask the hon. Member to read his own Bill. It does not say any such thing. Clause 2 says: Notwithstanding anything in the principal Act a person shall, on application made to the Council in the prescribed manner and on payment of the prescribed fee"— Mind you, no particular amount of the fee is mentioned there— be entitled to be registered under the principal Act, if the Council are satisfied on a report of the Admission Committee that his application for registration was made within two years after the commencement of this Act and that at the commencement of this Act he was, or had been, practising as an architect in the United Kingdom. That is the part that is operative, and nothing can undo it. [Interruption.] I will read on if hon. Members desire it. It goes on to say: Provided that any person aggrieved by the refusal or failure of the Council to cause his name to be entered on the Register on an application made by him under this section shall be entitled to appeal to a Tribunal… It says that he shall be registered if he applies within two years and has practised in the past. There is no mistaking the meaning of that provision. No other meaning can be attached to it than the meaning which I am attaching to it now. My hon. Friend the Member for East Woolwich has no authority, nor have the people who have sent out literature on behalf of the R.I.B.A., nor the R.I.B.A. themselves, to speak for the Building 1522 Trades Federation. The Building Trades Federation has never been consulted. If it were consulted, I am as certain as that I am standing here that it would not agree. I do not believe that any of the workpeople's organisations, if they considered this matter, would give their consent to a Measure to make it more difficult for their sons and daughters to enter one of the professions whose doors it is now sought practically to close against them. It is worth noting that only eight scholarships were granted last year. The hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Bossom) told me about the number of entrants to the examinations who passed. I think he said it was 215. Of all that number, only eight got scholarships. Did anyone in 1931 contemplate that that was going to be the state of affairs? I am sure nobody did. The House was deliberately misled by the people who promoted the Bill at that time, and an attempt is being made deliberately to mislead the House by those who are promoting the Bill at this time.

I would put this point to the House, and particularly to those who are associated with me in the movement with which I have been for a long time connected. Does anybody on this side of the House imagine, if a Bill were introduced to register carpenters and joiners, or members of the Union of Post Office Workers, and to give them permission to charge fees for registration and to register bricklayers or members of any trade union, and the right to hold an examination before members were admitted into the trade, that the House would give such a proposal the support which it is being asked to give to this Bill? I am not opposed to examinations; I have already said so; but that is not the point. The question is, would they be given the right to charge a registration fee and to prevent anybody else from calling themselves carpenters and joiners, bricklayers, Post Office workers, miners, or any other of the trades or callings in or out of the building industry to-day? I am amazed that working-class representatives should permit themselves to be associated with a Bill which can have only one object, namely, to close the profession and make it as limited as possible so far as entrants are concerned—to make it difficult for poor boys or girls to get in, and in every way to make it 1523 a close corporation such as some other professions are at the present time. The hon. Member who moved the Amendment said, I think wrongly, that the legal profession is one in which registration is not necessary. Everybody knows perfectly well that no one can practise as a lawyer unless he has the consent of the organisation which dominates that profession, that nobody can practise as a doctor to-day unless he has the consent—

§ Sir Francis Fremantle

Oh, yes, he can.

§ Mr. McEntee

He cannot call himself a doctor—

§ Mr. David Grenfell

My hon. Friend has made reference to some of us who are his associates in this House. Does he realise that I, for instance, who am as competent in my trade as he is in his, would not be allowed to work with him on his job, because I should not be deemed qualified to do so?

§ Mr. McEntee

I do not realise any such thing. The person who decides whether my hon. Friend or anyone else shall work in my trade is not the organisation, but the employer.

§ Mr. Grenfell

My hon. Friend knows that the trade unions in the building industry are actively protesting against dilution in all trades.

§ Mr. McEntee

Of course, we are protesting against incompetents coming in, but my point is this: If we, or my hon. Friend's organisation, came to this House and asked the House to give us legal power to extract fees for registration, does he suggest that the House would give us that power? [Interruption.] These interruptions are really unfair. I am trying to keep within reasonable limits of time, but, if I am interrupted as I have been continuously, I shall go on as long as I like, and I think I am justified in doing so. Everyone, including my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) knows that, if his union or mine desired to set up a registration council, to impose an entrance examination and to extract fees from members of the union, we should never get power to do so from this House. I suggest to my hon. Friend 1524 and other Members that it is just as important that there should be skilled miners, skilled carpenters and joiners, skilled bricklayers, and so on, as that there should be skilled architects. A skilled architect may do a lot of harm. He may endanger life; he may endanger the beauty of the landscape; he may do all kinds of things to which I and a great many others would object; but an unskilled miner may endanger hundreds of thousands of lives because of his lack of skill, and so may an unskilled building trades labourer.

Three or four weeks ago I was at the job which is now going on at the town hall, Walthamstow, and the general foreman was pointing out to me the foundations, some of which are 12 or 14 feet deep. He said, "I must have skilled timbermen down there. If one man that is not skilled goes down into that pit, be may endanger the lives of everybody in it." But would anyone in this House suggest that such workmen as that should be registered, that the organisation to which they may or may not belong should have the power to extract fees for registration and to make it difficult for them to get into the job, to put up a money bar against their getting into the job? Nobody would dare to suggest that in this House. Why do we always say that the professions must have a money ring around them? The professions must have a skill that is guaranteed by examination. They must have their members registered, so that the children of the ordinary man and woman are prevented from getting into them. If this Bill becomes law, it will be more difficult and more expensive for working-class boys and girls to get into this profession, and I hope that the House, with the fairness that it usually shows in matters of this kind, will reject the Bill for that reason.

§ Mr. Bossom

I am not going to attempt to follow along the line of argument made by the hon. Member for Holborn (Sir R. Tasker). He indulged in an attitude which I do not think this House favours. Comments have been made, both by the hon. Member and by the hon. Member who seconded the Amendment for the rejection of the Bill about restrictions on poor people and about the dominating influence of the Royal Institute of British 1525 Architects. It has been said that of 75 members of the council, 46 were elected by the R.I.B.A. If you examine the proportions of members of the profession, you will find that that proportion is as nearly as correct as can be. I believe there are about 12,000 members of the profession registered, and about 7,000 who are members of the Royal Institute of British Architects. I do not think that we wish to go over a matter that was settled by the House in a 1931 situation. It was then agreed that registration was to be the rule for architects if they wished to call themselves registered architects. There was then a two-year period allowed, during which anyone might apply for registration, and I have not heard it contended that anyone was kept out by unfairness in that time. That is a very fair indication of what would happen in the future. I think if we had satisfaction during that time we are entitled to expect satisfaction the next time.

§ Mr. McEntee

The hon. Member has told us how many architects were registered; can he carry his figures a little further and say how many are not registered?

§ Mr. Bossom

That is an impossibility. No one can say how many there are if they are not registered, but I believe there are something in the neighbourhood of 13,000 or 14,000.

The question has been raised about the Royal Institute of British Architects being the dominating body. This body has been in existence since 1834. It has ha