INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM.

§ The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Butler)

I beg to move, That, before Parliament is asked to take a decision upon the proposals contained in Command Paper 426S, it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons, with power to call into consultation representatives of the Indian States and of British India, be appointed to consider the future government of India and, in particular, to examine and report upon the proposals in the said Command Paper. 2.55 p.m.

It is my privilege and duty, on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, to move this Motion, which asks this House to re-constitute the Joint Select Committee on Indian Constitutional Reform. The last Joint Select Committee was dissolved on the Prorogation of Parliament, and it presented a Report, which puts tersely and concisely the present position. With the permission of hon. Members, I will read the relevant sentences for their consideration: The Committee have been unable to complete the inquiry. They recommend, therefore, that the work should be continued by a Joint Committee to be appointed in the fortcoming Session. Hon. Members may ask why we have adopted this unusual procedure of interrupting the Debate on the King's Speech in order to move this Motion. The passage of the necessary Motions in this House and in another place takes several days, and it is our wish that the Committee shall be re-constituted with the least possible interruption, if the House so desires, in order that they may make the best possible use of the valuable but all too short time which still exists for their labours before Christmas. I dare say hon. Members have read with care and attention the long proceedings of the Committee. I have had statistics submitted to me, which show that these proceedings run into well over 1,000,000 words. It therefore wants very few words of mine to be added to that large number in recommending this Motion to the House Perhaps it would be wise, however, if I gave a short account of the stewardship of the Committee, and I will, if I may, strike a balance between a funeral oration and a hymn of resurrection.

90 The 70 meetings included 55 which were devoted almost exclusively to evidence. Out of the 120 witnesses which the Committee heard, there were those of representative Indian bodies and British organisations interested in the work of the Committee. Besides these, we had the privilege of hearing several private individuals, both British and Indian, among them one or two Members of this House. There were also included among the witnesses many who gave evidence at considerable length whose views cannot be said to tally with those of us who support the White Paper. I think hon. Members will find it difficult not to acknowledge that the Committee has, therefore, up till now listened to every point of view. Among the many questions which were put to witnesses, which number, I am informed, some 20,000, over a quarter were directed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. When I tell the House that my right hon. Friend was actually in the witness box for a period of something over 75 hours, they will appreciate the physical and mental ordeal through which he has been, and I am sure they will be ready to pay a tribute to the work he has done and the help he has given to the Committee. He has not only helped the Committee, but I think I may say that he has placed a new record upon the annals of Parliamentary procedure. I think perhaps the decision of the Secretary of State to appear before the Committee will show to the House, as it showed to the Committee, the determination of the Government not to conceal anything from the public or from public inquiry. The fact that he was willing to stand there and be cross-questioned on any subject is, I think, convincing proof of that statement. I think also that the diversity of evidence that the Committee heard must be proof of its determination not to leave a stone unturned to arrive at the truth of this vast and important problem.

The majority of the evidence has been taken, but there remains the important problem of Burma still to be considered. When that has been concluded, the Committee will have to prepare and consider and present their report to Parliament in the normal and proper manner. When one considers a Committee such as this with so vast and complicated a subject to discuss, when one considers that there were 32 British members and 27 Indian dele 91 gates, I think it is right to pay a tribute to the unfailing tact and courtesy with which the Lord Chairman has conducted the proceedings of the Committee. I think that the best tribute to him is that any long-suffering publicist who was obliged to read through the many printed papers of the proceedings would have looked in vain for any sensational incidents or scenes in the course of the deliberations. A tribute is due to the industry of the Committee and in particular to the members who were appointed by this House. Many, such as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), to take one example, have many public duties outside the duties that they perform on the Committee, and we should pay a tribute to their remarkable record of attendance. Their mastery of detail has been a lesson in exactitude, and the way they have applied themselves to this problem, which in complexity and extent and responsibility probably exceeds any other that has ever been submitted to a Committee of Parliament, is, I think, truly remarkable.

I should also like to express appreciation of the manner in which the Indian delegates helped and forwarded the work of the Committee. They have most of them for the past three years been separated for the greater part of the time from their homes and their ordinary business and other interests. They have constituted themselves ns golden links between this country and India. The more they have been weighed in the balances, the less they have been found wanting, and those who had the opportunity of deliberating and consulting with them will he grateful for their aide experience and will remember the lively colour with which they illustrated their points of view. There is one other memory which lingers in my mind, and that is a phrase used by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), who thought fit to come and give evidence before the Committee which we all appreciated. Re used a phrase that he thought it was wrong to leave one-sixth of the human race dangling between heaven and earth. If I may use his own metaphor, may I say that I hope this House will not, leave the Joint Select Committee dangling between heaven and 92 earth, but will allow it to proceed upon the great work which it has still to do.

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD

If I could be perfectly sure that at this time next year the Under-Secretary in the same terms would propose the reappointment of this Committee, I should not be opposing it this afternoon. I am opposing it because I think the Committee will come t, a decision on inadequate evidence. The hon. Gentleman has referred to the number of witnesses who were heard by the Committee. My own experience was that no witness was heard a t all when the meetings were held in a room where hearing was impossible. Certainly in normal circumstances I think that this Comittee has a certain value. It has an educational value. The more this scheme is discussed, the more people, not only on the Committee, but outside, come to understand it, the less it is liked. Today we are considering this matter in an entirely different position from that which occupied us and our minds a year ago. Now we know that this scheme has no friends save in the India Office and possibly among the ex-Viceroys, but no friends even in India for whose benefit it is supposed to be devised. They are learning, and I am not certain but that the members OF the Committee are learning also. I noticed that it seemed to come as news to one of my colleagues on that Committee to discover that while Indian Princes are coming m to govern India, yet they themselves were to be exempt from any of the taxation they might impose and from any legislation they might pass. It is just as well that people on the Committee should realise that.

I think that the advantages from an educational point of view of the setting up of this committee are perhaps outbalanced by drawbacks even now. Those who read the evidence will notice that the representatives of India on the Joint Committee were overwhelmingly composed of those who were interested solely in the centre, that is, in the Assembly at Delhi, who saw little niches for themselves in that Assembly when it was set up and an all too small degree of people who had experience of local government in India. The questions as well as the evidence were directed almost entirely to the question of the central government. To my mind that is entirely 93 the wrong way of approaching the Indian problem. The only way to teach Indians self-government is to begin by local government, to discuss the question how best to manage the village, the district board and the provincial council, and, when we have got them working satisfactorily, then to proceed with the far more difficult question of the control of the centre at Delhi. The evidence overwhelmingly dealt with the centre, and I do want in this little effort of opposition on my part to impress upon the Secretary of State for India and upon the committee as a whole the real desirability before they come to their decisions as to what is to be done for. India, to consider, even if it involves another visit to India, this question of self-government on which everything else must depend.

I remember the original scheme of Mrs. Besant; and, after all, she had a great deal to do with the extension of democracy in India; her scheme, which was approved by most of the liberal-minded Indians was a scheme which began with the Panchayat, a small electorate seeing the actual results of their Acts, and working up through that, through the district hoards, to the Councils by a system of indirect election, so that every Indian should have a voice in the government of his own locality, even, if indirectly, in the government of the Province. With the gigantic and uneducated electorates of India there ought to he indirect election from the villages to the district boards, from the district boards to the provincial councils and from them to the Assembly at Delhi. In view of the lamentable ignorance of self-government in India, before the Committee come to a definite decision to set up this fancy body at Delhi, to rule 350,000,000 people, they ought to consider whether they should not build up first, before it is too late, some system of local government. The whole question is being discussed and agitated in India at the present time. A scheme has been put forward, principally in the Central Provinces, by Professor Raju, who has never even been called before the committee, although his book is probably well known to a good many in this House. That is the sort of thing I would have this reconstituted committee consider; that would justify its being set up again. We are not justified in setting up 94 a committee to deal solely with the matter in the White Paper, disregarding altogether the question of provincial and, more particularly, local government of smaller areas.

The chief problem in establishing democracy in India is the gigantic mass of the population and their lack of education, because to get any sort of assent from the rich in India you have to limit the franchise and confine the voting power to the rich. That situation can only be met by indirect representation. The report of the Simon Commission, when dealing with this question of representation at the centre, advocated indirect election by the councils, so that we might have in the Assembly at Delhi not people elected for their extremist nationalist views but representing to some extent practical experience in government and chosen ultimately by the much wider electorate of the provincial councils. That was a proposal of the Simon Commission, and there has never been any adequate reason put forward for dropping it. The real objection to it is found in the Indian leaders—well, self-constituted leaders, who prefer the method of direct election, because in that way they may get to Delhi, whereas they would never be elected by the provincial councils, and do not desire to do the humdrum work,. the constructive work, on those councils as a preliminary to serving in the Assembly.

Local government has not been considered; but I wish the House to consider here, where we are still responsible, some of the new features—new since last year. There are three of them. The first of them is the unanimous Hindu opposition to the White Paper policy. A year ago it was not conscious, it was not united, it did not understand. Now it does understand, and here am I, going to-morrow afternoon to speak to a meeting called by the Hindu organisations here against this White Paper and to support their view that the White Paper will produce a system worse than that which India has to day. [Laughter.] Hon. Members, and especially right hon. Members who are on the Committee, may jeer at that. It comes particularly ill from a man who has throughout supported the Moslem minority in their desire to dominate over the Hindus. We all remember the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham 95 (Earl Winterton), when he was Secretary of State for India. Never was Secretary of State! Well, we all thought he was.

This Hindu opposition really must be understood by the House, and I beg the right hon. Gentleman to consider their point of view. To begin with, they are the majority of the people of India, and now, in order to placate the minorities in India—principally the Moslem minority, but I regret to say now every other minority—we have grafted on to this so-called democratic constitution a principle which is utterly repugnant to all those who understand how it works. I refer to the system of communal representation. There is not a man in this House who supports communal representation—well, not for England. For India, yes—the right hon. Member for Horsham. The inevitable result of having these separate religious electorates for central or local government is that we shall have elected only those who hold the view that everybody else is wrong and bad. You cannot get the public interest represented by a system of communal representation. The only way for a man to get back to the Assembly or on to the councils would be for him to please a narrow circle of communal friends, and the best way to do that would be by showing bitter hostility to everybody else.

This is a, commonplace and I ought not to be talking it in the House of Commons. Every right hon. Member on the Treasury Bench knows that what I am saying is true. In dealing with a similar position everywhere else the British Government have resolutely set down their foot against any attempt at building up a communal system. Obviously if we had such a system, in this country democracy would he in infinitely greater danger than it is to-day. This communal system—I did not appreciate it a year ago—has been made infinitely worse by the White Paper proposals. I believe these new proposals in the White Paper have been orginally asked for by the communities in India with a view to preventing constitutional change. It is common knowledge that the Mohammedans do not look forward to democracy, and the safeguards they have stipulated for have been included in the White Paper. Let me show the House one of these 96 safeguards. It is that in the four Provinces where the Mohammedans are in the majority there shall be communal electorates and no Hindu shall vote for a Mohammedan. Why? The Mohammedans are in the majority in those Provinces, and they have provided that the Hindus shall be, now and ever, always in a statutory minority. No matter how badly the majority conduct the government of those provinces; no matter what invidious legislation they pass; no matter how they trample upon justice, the minority have no possible remedy. They are always in a minority.

Already in the Punjab the Mohammedans are in a majority, and they speak openly of the Hindus as the Jews of the Punjab. Hitler's counterpart in the Punjab has a permanent statutory majority. No amount of oppression can upset him. In the White Paper is provision that there shall be no discrimination between the various races, except of course the discrimination that there is already. In the Punjab the Hindus may not buy land from the Mohammedans. We admitted that. It is just that sort of discrimination of which we shall see more. The police are to be in the hands of the provincial councils, and under the orders of the permanent Mohammedan majority. What sort of justice are you going to get, and what sort of police will you have? In the Punjab provinces—I speak under correction—there are 30,000,000 of people. It is worse in Sind, where the Mohammedan majority is vaster and the position of the Hindus more hopeless. In the Punjab, the Mohammedans are not even in a majority. They are given a statutory majority by the scheme. In the North West frontier provinces, where the Hindus have been the victims of outrage, within my memory over and over again, the same system is carried out; and above all in Bengal, with its 45,000,000 inhabitants, you have this system of statutory and permanent majority for one section of the population.

Let the House consider what must inevitably result from this. Everything done against the Hindus in the Punjab will be known all over India better than it is known here. It will be known even in far Madras, where the Mohammedans are a small minority, as the Hindus are in the North West Provinces. Do you 97 think that there will not be retaliation Cannot you see the great wave of religious hatred which is being built up under this system of statutory majority and statutory minority? You who are uniting a federal India are, in this system, giving birth to a disunited, warring continent.

I will give another illustration of what has been concealed in the White Paper but is gradually becoming known, and which is more and more filling every Hindu in India with dread of the prospect. Another new fact has become visible, both here and in India, and that is that, behind this scheme of getting rid of English control and of the British Parliament and substituting the Princes and millionaires of India, there is a nefarious, most sinister agitation carried on by some of the ex-Civil Service of India. Who is the man who is most anxious for the White Paper to go through? Sir John Thompson. I remember a time when the Secretary of State for India got up from his seat on the Government Front Bench and censured Sir John Thompson.

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Sir Samuel Hoare)

I have never censured him.

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD

No, not the right hon. Gentleman, but the right hon. Gentleman need not tell me that he does not know that Sir John Thompson was censured for his conduct in the Punjab.

§ Sir S. HOARE

For supporting the Governor, Sir Michael O'Dwyer.

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD

Censured by Mr. Edwin Montagu, the Secretary of State for India. I think that there would be considerable interest, among such people as that, in getting rid of Parliamentary criticism and Parliamentary control, and substituting for it their friends, the people whom they can understand. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for India perhaps has not read all the correspondence in the Press on this subject. Let us beware of shaping our policy in this country on views which are frankly Fascist in origin. The hatred of Parliament is not confined to a few maniacs in this country. There is a widespread feeling, which is felt all the more by those whose work is constantly criticised 98 and kept up to the mark by the British Parliament and by, I am glad to say, British Secretaries of State. Those people do not like Parliament, and they would like to get rid of this control. They would like to substitute a Parliament such as you are setting up at Delhi under this White Paper. The more that Indians come to appreciate who is at the back of the White Paper the less—not only Hindus but others—do they like the paternity or the offspring.

The objections to the White Paper are not only to these ideas and these new revelations, but to the whole idea of the communal system, which is seen now in India to be an attempt to divide the people of India, to destroy any chance of an Indian nation evolving, to make permanent for ever the gulf between two people who at present do not intermarry or intermingle, but who would be brought together in a genuine democracy. More and more people here and there are realising that the paper safeguards in the White Paper are not the ones upon which the Government rely, but that the chief safeguard upon which they rely is the presence in the assembly at Delhi of the Indian princes, who are the permanent, sound conservative element of stability in the new constitution and that we have got them in for what we can get out of them. If at any time it ever becomes necessary, I hope to say a few things about these Indian princes, about the people whom you are substituting for the British House of Commons. I do not believe that their acts are very popular even on that Front Bench—for example, the man who roasted his polo pony alive. These are the sort of people whom you are going to put instead of us. Well, the Indians do not like it any more than we do.

To my mind you are wholly mistaken. You want safety. Does anyone on that Front Bench honestly think that you can get safety by putting in charge of India the millionaires, the Princes of India, whose one desire will be to retain their positions by conducting a popular campaign against England, whose one fear will be, not displeasing England, but the rise of the working class, of the communist spirit? They are afraid, and I think they have every right to be afraid. They have held the working class down long enough in India. Anyone who knows the chawls of Delhi, anyone who has 99 studied the wage schedules in the pits of Bengal, must realise that those people who live on this have a right to be afraid. But the only way in which they can prevent danger arising to them will be by putting everything down to the Satanic British Government. Everything that goes wrong after this scheme will be due to the right hon. Gentleman. At present it is all bouquets, but it will not be so for a moment after they have got this handle to deal with the British Government. I think that this scheme might perhaps be supported unwittingly by Liberals and Labour people but for the way in which these people whom you propose to put for ever in charge of India—for this is the final step henceforth we can do nothing in the matter—have ruled India for the last 12 years, and have avoided, as their successors under this scheme will avoid, the carrying out of any reforms, in the interests of the working class—or of widows, or women, or education, or anything else. They have had the power in their councils to do all that we know they should have done if they had been people to whom you can entrust 350 millions of helpless souls. I think that no man can honestly support this scheme as being in the interests of the Indian people.

Many people here regard this as a matter which concerns England only. There are now, I know, safeguards to safeguard everyone who has any sort of interest in India, but this concerns the Indian people far more than the English people. Let those people who consider that these safeguards—these paper safeguards—are of any value, consider what happens to safeguards in other countries. We had safeguards in Ireland; we had safeguards in South Africa. Of what use are paper safeguards when obviously you have the sole interest of the new governing class in India directed towards finding in the safeguards the cause of every sort of blame which otherwise would fall upon them? Paper safeguards are of no use. Do let us think whether we could not provide a more genuine safeguard against these risks. Perhaps I might quote a few words from a paper in India which I always read, and which I think is the best paper produced in India—[HON. MEMBERS: "What paper"?] The "Servant of India," published at Poona. In the 100 course of a long and very friendly article it says: Few individuals, and certainly fewer organised nations, will be too eager to keep moral obligations at the sacrifice of material interests. But once in a while the improbable happens, as under Lord Ripon and Mr. Montagu. Britain more than any other country has had such moments of moral elevation. That I regard as the quintessence of what we want to say in India. This is how the same article ends—the whole article, of course, is damning the White Paper: The right and prudent course seems to be to make it clear that the Hoare constitution is wholly unsatisfactory, that the agitation for Swaraj will not abate a jot because of its enactment, that it will continue with ever-increasing strength until the demand is fully satisfied, and that, whatever constitution is enacted in the meanwhile, it will be utilised to the full only to forward the cause of Swaraj. That is a most remarkable statement. Is it not obvious that the safeguards are of no use, and that you are forcing upon these people an act which they loathe, and quite rightly, for reasons which every Englishman will appreciate?

I ventured to put before the Committee my own ideas of what should be done, and, if the House will tolerate it for one moment, I should like to outline it. I do not think much of paper safeguards. I want the Assembly at Delhi to be a temporary body, which will give us the opportunity of taking the next step forward later on. I want it to be composed, in the first place, of people elected by proportional representation, or otherwise if the Prime Minister so desires—to be elected by the provincial councils. The provincial councils would, in general, delegate one of themselves. Above all, I would put an end to the absurd provision in the existing law that a provincial councillor may not be elected to the Assembly. I want to get into the Assembly people who are not elected as extremists, but people who have experience of work and who will voice in the Assembly the interest of their Province, and not the anti-English policy which too often becomes the sole stock-in-trade at Delhi. Then I want, in addition, to have on this new body representatives of those Indian States, but only of those Indian States which have some form of representative government, whereby the members of 101 the Assembly could be voted for and elected by a representative body instead of being nominated by the Prince himself. It is true that that would only mean a few, a mere handful at present, but when the advantages of being represented on the Assembly have become obvious we might have a legitimate lever to increase the number of States with something in the nature of representative Government. There is not a single native State where they have responsible Government. All that we ask is that those States where they have some form of representative Government may then elect people on to the Assembly, at Delhi. Those would be the only two elements in the new Assembly that I would have permanetitly—the rest temporarily—temporarily until the idea of communal representation was dead. Temporarily I would have on that Assembly at Delhi nominated representatives of each of the communities nominated by the Viceroy on his responsibility. I should prefer them nominated and not elected for two reasons. Owe they are elected they become more important and more permanent, and the ultimate control of that Assembly must depend upon the Viceroy's power of dissolving it if the nominated men vote against him, and being able to reconstitute a new Assembly with more suitable material. You must have control over the Assembly during this transition period and that would give you control.

But far more than that, the vital item in my scheme is that we should have in the Assembly men elected by this House of Commons and by the House of Lords. Fifteen men from the Commons and 15 from the Lords would give you 30 Englishmen, who would be the very best safeguard and a far better safeguard than the Princes. They would not look at everything through official eyes. They would look a t matters through the eyes of the people who elected them to this House. I would combine that with representation here of an equal number of Indians. I wish hon. Members would believe me in this: The real difficulty in India is not that they want self-government. What they want is respect and equality. The whole of Gandhi's life has been directed towards putting an end to this horrible caste system, the caste between white and coloured and the caste between every other brand of Indian.

102 The elimination of caste, he says, is the salvation of Iildiall man and woman; and, by putting Indians here beside ourselves, above all, by putting Englishmen in the Indian Assembly with the good will of the Indians, we should be doing more to bridge the chasm between Englishmen and Indians than by any amount of infusing the civil service of India with Indian-born people. Once put all of us together on these benches and there are no caste distinctions.. Once put the English and the Indians on the same benches in Delhi and you will get the real co-operation of India and you will get the best possible education for democracy and self-government. I have always been an advocate of sending to govern the various provinces of India Members who have had experience in this House. I think it does some good. They have a wider spirit when they gee there, They are better than Government-promoted officials.

This might really be the beginning of a real Imperial Parliament. I cannot think why the opportunity has been missed, if it has been missed, in the case of Nrwfoundland. Now, when we are taking away self-government frcm Newfoundland, could we not have a Newfoundland representative in this Parliament? India is far more important. There yon have the alternative of two countries drifting permanently apart, as we have drifted apart from Ireland. That is the alternative of the White Paper. On the other hand, you have the chance of real co-operation, not only in India but here as well. The right hon. Gentleman talks about missing the omnibus. The omnibus was missed long ago. This is the only chance we have of building a new one to travel towards an allied democracy. I have urged this scheme upon the Committee but not the slightest notice has been taken of it except in India, and there it has met with unanimous approval as far as the Press goes. Everywhere they say how much better i t would be than the right hon. Gentleman's proposal.

§ Earl WINTERTON

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman quote the name of anybody in India who has supported it?

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD

I rnnnnt tell you anybody, but I have talked with a good many people, and I have rend all the extracts is the Press. I have also taken the trouble to write to Gandhi who, 103 after all, is doing the same work in India as I am trying to do here. I sent him my evidence. I said, "I know you cannot reply." No Indian leader can afford to back any scheme to-day. "I know you cannot reply. If you want me to stop let me know." I have never had a word from him. The one thing that he regrets in his life is that he ever came to the Round Table Conference and apparently sanctioned such a scheme as this. I think the right hon. Gentleman and his Committee might consider an alternative which would give far greater satisfaction and greater security to the interests of this country and India and might lead in the future to the establishment of a real Imperial Parliament containing representatives from other Dominions, which would be something worthy of a National Government, instead of this scheme which this Committee is going to discuss and which has the honest support of so few in this House or in either country.

§ Sir ADRIAN BAILLIE

I have listened with careful attention—the careful attention which it deserves—and more than usual interest to the speech which has just been delivered by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). He has ventilated some of his own views in regard to the policy contained in the White Paper. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman made a few suggestions as to how he personally would like to have the assemblies at Delhi constituted, but it seemed to me that, in the course of his remarks, he gave some hint that he thought that some of his suggestions were not entirely practicable. The general arguments in support of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's views disagreeing with the Government's policy in the White Paper are also familiar to us, even if they are refurbished from time to time and delivered with disarming eloquence.

I asked myself what was the real purpose of this Debate this afternoon? Why was it that a whole day was to be allotted to discussing as to whether we were to give our authority to re-constitute the Joint Select Committee. I should have thought that the result of the meeting of the Central Council of the National Union of Conservative and Unionist Asso- 104 ciations at the Friends' House on 28th June last, would have been sufficient to have convinced most people that the Conservative party, at any rate, was not prepared to prejudge the issue while the policy of the White Paper is sub judice. I take it that the House of Commons, being n responsible assembly, will be equally unprepared to commend or to reject the work of the Joint Select Committee, when, as far as I know, they have put no recommendations on paper. I take it, therefore, that the best that can be hoped of this Debate this afternoon is that it will be a cheap sounding board for those who are opposed to the policy of the Government contained in the White Paper. I have observed and noted one or two of the main points sanding out in the propaganda which is being directed not only in this House but around the country against the White Paper.

It is said that when democracy is breaking down in the West, and is giving place to the strong hand of dictatorship, surely, it is extraordinarily foolish for us to propose to hand over a democratic constitution to an oriental government; an oriental country entirely unversed in the traditions of democracy, whose people constitutionally and temperamentally, would be entirely unable to work such institutions even if they were versed in such administration. I agree. I think that is a very powerful argument, but, as a powerful argument, it will be equally effective if used against provincial autonomy or any other form of democratic government or the recommendations of the Simon Commission. In the speech just delivered by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, while he tiraded against the policy of the Government and generally deplored the stupidity of handing over this form of democracy to India, nevertheless he said—I think I am right in saying it—that the only hope of India was genuine democracy. I am really at this moment unable to make such a fine distinction. In a speech which I made in a similar Debate in this House on 28th March last I pointed out that the official Opposition seemed to think that we had only to hand over what I called the blue-print of a Western democratic constitution to India and that thereafter the Hindu politicians would promptly put it into effect, to the great 105 advantage of the Indian masses in their millions. At the time I evinced considerable doubt as to that result. I have no doubt when this constitution is passed over to India democracy, as it will be worked out in India, will be something very different from what we are used to in this country and in the West.

I do not believe that the possibility of relatively slight and possibly transitory backsliding in the status of the masses of India is a sufficient reason for us in this House turning down in its entirety the proposals and the policy contained in the White Paper. I do not believe that that is a, sufficient reason in itself for us to reject the work which has been done by the Joint Select Committee. Such rejection would, in my opinion, jettison for a long time to come our position in India and our trade relations with India. I would like to remind hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that upon the success, maintenance and increase of our trade with India depends the livelihood and happiness of thousands of our own men and women in this country. The India Defence League stressed the Missionary role of our position in India. As in the past they say we have made it our business and mission to look after the Indian masses in their millions, so we must continue for an indefinite period to look after those masses and protect them against their rapacious and autocratic political and religious leaders. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme made a lot of this point in the course of his remarks, and, in a speech which he made in this House on 28th March last, he put that point of view with considerable force and imagination. He said that he disliked abdication in any circumstances, but thought that this was worse than abdication—it was cowardly abdication, and cowardly as well as futile.

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman at that time, and again to-day, showed that he was incensed by the fact that the Indian princes had been encouraged to federate. He did the Tory party the honour at that time of saying that everybody knew that one Tory Member in this House was worth six Indian princes. If the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had visited recently some of the more progressive and larger States in India as I recently have had the pleasure of doing— 106 States such as Mysore and Hyderabad—I think that he would have appreciated and would have seen for himself the very high standards already achieved and the real progress that has been made in some of those States—the ones I have mentioned—in health and education. I am sure that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman with his usual courtesy, would he the first to qualify his entirely sweeping condemnation of the princes as a whole. While the right hon. and gallant Gentleman and the Indian Defence League seem to be of one mind and feel very sincerely that the policy of the Government contained in the White Paper is one which is ruthlessly sacrificing the Indian masses, we also have the official Opposition who always tell us—we believe them—that they have the interests of the poorest of the poor nearest to their hearts, but the official Opposition advocates, so far as I know, unqualified abdication.

Thus in this House, we are confronted by two parties both apparently having the same objective, but their methods of reaching that objective are diametrically opposed. The Labour party emphasises the fact that we have been in virtual occupation of India for 150 years, that there have been /5 years of promises and that India is still one of the poorest countries in the world. Maybe that is so, but, to use an old saying, "You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear," and it would be idle to suggest that occupation and the Government of India. by Great Britain have not conferred upon that country considerable benefits such as up-to-date methods of transport, vast irrigation schemes, the teaching of hygiene and sanitation. By one means or another we have been able to decrease the mortality rate which had been growing year by year through pestilence and droughts. In the past 10 years the population of India has increased by 34,000,000, or 10 per cent. The increase for the last 50 years is 38 per cent., equal to the total population of France, or Italy and greater than that of Poland or Spain, and yet the Census Commissioner, in commenting on this increase in the population, says that it is no cause for satisfaction, but rather one for alarm. Thus the irony of the situation seems to me that while we have made it more difficult for the Indian to die, we have. riot made it much easier for him to live.

107 By putting a stop to perpetual internecine warfare, we have given India economic unity. We have educated Indians in our universities, they have learnt our ways, and we have encouraged them to look forward to the time when they would rule themselves. Wisely or unwisely, those are the seeds which we have sown, and now India is asking for more than economic unity. It is asking for political unity. India has learnt one other thing from this country. India has learnt the power of mass demonstration, of mass agitation. Her methods are not always the same as those in this country, but Mr. Gandhi has discovered and capitalised the real genius of his race, and that is passive resistance. If he was unable to get his followers to rise up in revolt, he has found it perfectly easly to get them—both men and women—to lie down and obstruct. Passive resistance boycott, terrorism, we know how those have frustrated our efforts since the War, and we know the damage that has resulted to our trade; but it seems to me that in the last year or two the situation has changed rapidly and for the better. There is plenty of evidence to support that statement, but I think it is apparent that the power of Congress is waning. No greater evidence in support of that statement could be produced than the tale told by the gaols of India. I see that for July last the number of prisoners in Indian gaols for political offences had dropped by 70 per cent., and that the number of actual convictions in that month was insignificant.

All those who read it must have appreciated and been impressed by the agreement which was signed in October last between the Bombay Mill-owners' Association and the Lancashire Textile Delegation. Sir William Clare Lees, the chairman of the Manchester Textile Delegation, before leaving Bombay, made a statement in which he asked all those of good will in India to lend their sympathy and support to this new basis of trade relation which had been initiated. I have had some small personal experience of business in India and business with Indians in this country, and I have always thought that the real hope for the future of this country in India must be based on an establishment of good will, not only in business, but also in the social and political sphere as well, but I also realised 108 that unless there was good will in the political sphere, it would be increasingly difficult to get good will in the business sphere.

I have recent information that the feeling of India is changing, that India to-day is prepared to accept the policy of the White Paper, provided that it is recognisable when it appears in the Bid before this House, having been through the mill of the Joint Committee. India is tired of what has gone before. The business man who previously financed and supported Congress, realises that while he may have got some advantage out of passive resistance and boycotting, nevertheless, to some extent, he was cutting off his nose to spite his face. But I am also informed that time is an element of the contract, and I would like to see the Joint Select Committee re-established as a result of this Debate, and to see their deliberations terminated with the utmost expedition.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

I do not wish to continue the Debate upon the merits of this immense topic which has been opened to us this afternoon in two such pregnant speeches as those to which we have just listened. I say "pregnant" because they contain very much matter and many statements with which all of us could agree or disagree according to our views. But I do not propose this afternoon to go into those large issues, because when we have this matter on the Floor of this House in the long stages of a Bill, we shall have lots of opportunities to thrash out every detail and every aspect.

§ Colonel WEDGWOOD

rose—

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman knows a great deal about India, but I have lived a long time in the House, and I certainly am of opinion that we shall have opportunities of debating this matter very fully. Therefore, I do not propose this afternoon to go at all over the ground which I, personally, endeavoured to explore and to illuminate when we last discussed this subject. Neither do I propose to object in any way to the reappointment of the Committee, and I should like to associate myself with the tribute which was paid to the Committee yesterday by the Prime Minister for its patience, courtesy and zeal in its protracted task. I think 109 it is a great pity that the Government packed the Committee with such an overwhelming majority of their own supporters who had already made their views publicly known in favour of the White Paper. If the Secretary of State had shown a larger sense of tolerancce and of fair play, and a greater detachment from his own schemes, I believe that he could have created a body whose labours would have been a real help in solving these profound Indian problems, or might, at any rate, have made some valuable contribution thereto. It was a great chance which my right hon. Friend threw away through being too greedy. But at this stage in the proceedings, after the Committee have sat for so many months, after they have examined so many witnesses, and, as I can testify myself, with inexhaustible assiduity and patience, and now that they have begun to consider the result of all their evidence, and now that there is nothing left for them to do but to disagree upon their report, I think it would be a great pity to make any effort to change the personnel at the present time.

Therefore, I make no complaint at all of the Motion which the Under-Secretary made to us in his speech, which, unhappily, I did not hear, but which. I am told, had at any rate the merit of Brevity. The point I wish to complain about this afternoon is not the appointment of this Committee nor the character of the Committee. My complaint—it is very largely a Parliamentary argument and a political argument, not roaming off into the far spaces of the East, but very much directed to our own affairs at home—my complaint is directed to the fact that His Majesty's Government, while constantly assuring Parliament and the Conservative party, who, after all, are the bulk of their supporters, that we are not committed in any way beyond the Act of 1919, and while appealing to us on all occasions to wait for the Report of the Joint Committee, are, in fact, doing everything in their power to drive forward the White Paper policy, and to make it impossible for Parliament to recede from it. That is the proposition I propose to develop and examine, with the patience of the House, this afternoon.

I say that for this purpose the Government speak with two voices—one voice 110 for home and the other for India, and very often one voice for one audience at home and another for a different audience. What is the salient fact in the tactics of His Majesty's Government? It is very remarkable, when you consider how long this matter has gone on, that they have never openly sought a vote in favour of the White Paper policy. Nothing could exceed the modesty and the meekness of the Motions which the Government arrange to have proposed in their support. Every direct issue has been avoided, whether in the House of Commons or in the party conferences out of doors. The Government have never dared—I make no reproach upon their courage; it is not a question of courage, it is a question of their knowledge of the political forces at work—to ask plainly for approval of their Indian policy. They have a stock Motion which they introduce on all difficult occasions when they are brought into contact with those to whom they owe their political authority. I must read it to the House. That stock Motion is to this effect: Approves the caution with which the Government is proceeding in framing its proposals for a new Constitution, and believes that this country should not come to any final conclusion on the matter until the Joint Select Committee now sitting, which consists in the main of men with a wide experience of Indian administration, have finished the hearing of evidence and made their recommendations. That seems very reasonable. Nobody could find much fault with that, but it is hardly an heroic and confident statement of the issues which the Government are putting before the country. I notice that even Ministers of the Crown have been quite ready to support a Resolution of this kind, congratulating the Government and enjoining upon the Government—that is, upon themselves—extreme caution in the development of their Indian policy. Nobody would complain of that kind of self-discipline, which may be extremely necessary.

From the beginning we have been assured that we are not committed by anything that the Round Table Conference have done to any new position in regard to India. At every stage we have been urged to wait for something that is going to happen. For a very long time we were told to wait for the White Paper. Then we were told to wait for the appointment 111 of the Committee. Now we are told to wait for the report of the Committee. When the report of the Committee has been presented we shall be invited to wait until the Government decide upon the main headlines of their Bill, and after that we shall be told to wait until we see the actual text of the Bill. At every point we are being invited to wait, and side by side with it there goes on an insidious propaganda to this effect: "After all the expectations that have been aroused in India we cannot go back on the work of the Round Table Conference."

I am going to repeat some of the assurances that we have received. They are familiar to the House, but there is no reason why the country and the House should not be reminded of them. The earliest of them was given by the Prime Minister, in reply to a letter addressed to him during the late Parliament by my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, who asked him some very pointed questions. The Prime Minister replied, on the 11th November, 1929: The answer to both parts of the question as to whether the Viceroy's (Lord Irwin's) Declaration implies any change in the policy hitherto declared or in the time when this status may be attained, is, No. Then there was the celebrated statement of Lord Hailsham, in December, 1931, in the opening Debate of this Parliament: You are not pledging yourself to support any Bill when it comes before this House. You are committing yourself to this, and to this only, that you endorse the action of the Government in going on with their inquiries and negotiations, in sending out their Committees, in seeing the Ruling Princes and in endeavouring to find a solution on those lines, but you reserve to yourself full liberty if, when the solution is brought before you, you think it does not meet the conditions laid down That was the statement made by Lord Hailsham in the House of Lords. Lastly, there is the statement of the Secretary of State for India, in the House of Commons on the 27th March of this year: The pledges of the past leave full opportunity to Parliament in the choice of the time and manner of constitutional advance. I accept this principle."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th March, 1933; col. 697, Vol. 276.] Those are the assurances. Let us look on the other side. Look at the propa- 112 ganda. My right hon. and gallant Friend opposite has referred to Sir John Thompson and Sir Alfred Watson, two gentlemen who have lately obtained some prominence through being particularly noticed by the "Times" newspaper. I am not aware of any other claim they have to special attention. They are the chief organisers of the Union of Britain and India, which is the propagandist society which has been set up to advocate the White Paper, and which is cherished, and I think I might almost say, though I do not say it, nourished by the Conservative Central Office. Let us see what these two gentlemen, who are conducting the propaganda of the Government and who, so to speak, are the advance guard of the Government in their Indian policy, have to say. Sir Alfred Watson wrote in the "Times" of the 10th June, 1933: Whatever validity attaches to the Montagu pledge, it has been reinforced, if not superseded, by a pledge of far more significance. In December, 1931, both Houses of Parliament approved by overwhelming majorities the policy outlined in the Indian Round Table Conference, Command Paper No. 3972. That Command Paper declared for provincial autonomy, for a Central Government with responsibility on a Federal basis, and for safeguards. The Prime Minister stated that, In order to give this declaration the fullest authority' he was asking Parliament to approve it. Sir John Thompson, on the 15th September, also in the "Times" newspaper, said: Parliament has already expressed its approval of the triple basis scheme which is now before the Join Committee, that is, provincial autonomy, federation and partial responsibility at the centre. What is the relation of this insidious propaganda to the perfectly definite pledge of Lord Hailsham in the House of Lords when the Resolution was being passed, and to the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman in the House so recently?

There is a much more important declaration which. has been recently made, to which I must invite the attention of the House. I mean the declaration of the Viceroy upon the question of Dominion Status. The phrase "Dominion Status" was loosely used 10 or 12 years ago and all who were concerned in that, however unwittingly, are blameworthy.

§ Earl WINTERTON

Hear, hear.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

I am glad to find that my words for once have won the agreement of the Noble Lord. I am glad to find that on one point, at any rate, I am at one with him. Many things have happened in the last 10 years. The whole of this constitutional field in India has now become an area of the most closely examined and meticulously scrutinised constitutional argument, and every point, every phrase is now looked at not with the sentimental interpretation which might have been put upon it but with the exact meaning. Moreover, as the Noble Lord might remind his constituents at Horsham the next time he has the courage to face them—the Statute of Westminster has been passed in the last two years.

The House is familiar with all the details of the Statute of Westminster. The changes which that Statute made in Dominion Status are overwhelming and measureless. The changes which it made in the letter of the law of Dominion Status are overwhelming—tne right to secede by mere votes of the Assemblies, the power to disallow any Imperial Acts, even the Acts which constitute the instrument setting up the Dominion, and many other points of the utmost significance which had been a dead letter between us and the self-governing Dominions but which carry great validity in regard to our relations with India. All these powers have been introduced to the Statute Book as a result of the Statute of Westminster, and I do not imagine that the Indian politicians are not fully alive to all this. We all remember Mr. Sastri's attempt to commend the White Paper to some of his friends, when he pointed out that Dominion Status included the right to secede from the British Empire, and therefore it was more acceptable than it otherwise would have been.

When this Parliament began, in its callow youth, when it first arrived here full of enthusiasm and wondering what great things were going to happen, I raised this question of the effect of the Statute of Westminster upon the proposals of the White Paper—not the last White Paper but the first White Paper of two years ago; the Prime Minister's valedictory address to the Congress delegates. What did the Secretary of State say? He said that the Statute of Westminster had no more to do with the 114 statement of Government policy than the man in the moon.

§ Sir S. HOARE

I should repeat that now.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

Very well. I am very glad to hear that. I am very glad that the right hon. Gentleman is still standing by the man in the moon. But what does he think of this statement of the Viceroy, reported in the "Times" of the 29th August of this year, in which he claimed that His Government's policy had been completely consistent with two main facets and the first was to push on with the reforms as hard as they could go so as to help India forward to Dominion status and absolute equality with the other Dominions. What has the right hon. Gentleman to say to that? While he declares that what he has in mind has no more to do with the Statute of Westminster than the man in the moon, the Viceroy, with whom he is in the closest accord, speaking in India, to another audience, says that he is working up to absolute equality—note the phrase—with the other Dominions, and he uses that expression at a time when the politicians in India attach importance to the expression "Dominion Status," because they know that under the Statute of Westminster it gives them the right inter alia to secede from the British Empire. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman will explain this position when he speaks this evening, but it is very difficult to reconcile this kind of double policy, the man in the moon here, and absolute equality at Delhi with that fair dealing which we have always associated and which I hope we shall always be able to associate with those who sit on that Front Bench.

There is another aspect which illustrates the point that I am making, namely, the concealment of the issue here while all the time a march is being stolen elsewhere. That is my point. There is another aspect, and perhaps to some extent something of this might have been inevitable, but I want the House to examine it. While the country is assured that nothing is happening and that we are altogether uncommitted, step by step His Majesty's Government are advancing towards their goal. While the nation is soothed and chloroformed here, every preparation is being made to bring the policy into actual effect in India. Indeed, it is taken for granted by the Government of 115 India in their every act that this policy is going through. A law has been passed empowering Governors to prolong the life of various local legislatures, and in view of the constitutional changes which it is assumed are going to take place governors are being appointed who are ardent supporters of the scheme. That is not unnatural, because one would hardly expect the Government to appoint opponents of their scheme.

The Civil Service have been offered the right to retire on proportionate pensions if under the new scheme they feel that they have no longer a reasonable and hopeful sphere of usefulness. This is a curious provision which does not seem to suggest any great enthusiasm on the part of the Civil Service for the new method, but it is no bar to the Government claiming that the great bulk of the Civil Service are supporters of the scheme. Contributors to the Indian military widows and orphans pension fund have been told, rather callously, that if they care to bring their funds home they can, but, naturally, their pittance will be less at home because of the lower rates of interest. We are told that it is derogatory to the Indian Government to offer any British guarantee for the payment of pensions due. The naval and military authorities have been reassured by the proposed detachment of the fortress of Aden from the control of future Indian Governments. Aden is to be saved from the wreck. It is a measure of prudence which must commend itself, but it is rather a strange mark of confidence. All this shows how constantly and by every channel the Government are proceeding as if the Report of the Committee were a foregone conclusion, as if the decision of this House and the other House were a foregone conclusion, and that the whole scheme would come into complete operation. While anxieties at home are lulled and the direct issue avoided we are every month becoming more deeply compromised by arousing Indian expectations, and at the same time His Majesty's Government, ruthlessly, behind the scenes, are making every preparation for carrying their policy into effect. They have already gone a long way.

Among all the continuous preparations which they are making and the propaganda which they are conducting behind 116 the scenes in all the vast administrative sphere under their control, nothing is more prominent than he pressure they have put on the Princes of India. The word "pressure" is difficult to define. Pressure is difficult to prove. I am told that sometimes the Whips put pressure on hon. Members in the Lobby to vote in a particular division, but it is difficult. to prove as, in the first, place, some of the language used would not, I am told, be suitable for reproduction on the Floor of the House, even if it were not already safeguarded by being private conversation. Therefore I have to rely on public statements which are quotable. There are several which are quotable. I am not going to say anything about patronage. Since I referred to it in the Debate in the summer I have had a, great deal of material put before me, but it is a matter which cannot be dealt with properly because it involves dealing with individual cases, and would be very painful and vexatious to the individuals concerned. Therefore, I shall not attempt to deal with this very large and obvious sphere of patronage. But let me take a statement made by Sir Akbar Hydari, the representative of the Nizam in this country. On 23rd December, 1932—he asked this question: Is it not the fact that the Secretary of State and His Majesty's Government have slowly but surely pressed us into the Federation? No one who has watched the Secretary of State and his colleagues ruthlessly holding us to it, can doubt that it is an All-India Federation that they want, and no lesser substitute. Apparently this ruthless pressure had some effect on Sir Akbar Hydari, because when I was a witness before the Joint Select Committee he said this: May I also state that so far from there being any pressure from the Political Department of the Government of India on the different States in favour of Federation, I believe British India, at any rate, was afraid that the pressure would he exerted the other way in tearing up the Federation. Whatever pressure has been at work on the mind of this eminent and distinguished Indian gentleman it has certainly been effective; it has produced a complete change in his statement. Then there was the exhortation, the warning, with a menace in it, given to the princes of India by the Lord Chancellor in winding up the third Round Table Conference. He said: 117 There was only one thing which could dim the lustre of their statesmanship, and that one thing was delay. India is thirsting … you have put the cup to her lips—do not delay her drinking it. I say that it is pressure when one of the leading Members of His Majesty's Government says publicly to the princes of India that they will be responsible for denying to India the cup for which India. is thirsting. There is also the incident of the Jam Sahib at Delhi, who was interrupted by the Viceroy and made to discontinue the speech he was making on the dangers of federation. It was explained to me by the Secretary of State, when I attended the sitting of the Joint Select Committee, that this was merely that the Jam Sahib was out of order, the topic was not on the Order Paper for that day, and that all the Viceroy did was to call him to order. That is not at all a complete representation of what took place. The greatest pressure put on the princes of India is the pressure of their own loyalty to the Crown, to the British Government, and to the Viceroy as the King Emperor's representative. When it is clearly shown what is the view of the Government it undoubtedly tends, through the whole of the great congregation of Native States, to make them desirous to meet the wishes of the supreme authority, of the King Emperor and his Government. One of the most pathetic features of this story is the malversation of loyalties to the British Empire, which we have by our past conduct deserved and won, and which should have been our defence and support.

I am not making any assertion but I would ask the Secretary of State to enlighten us on this matter. I have seen it stated that the residency areas at Bangalore and Hyderabad are being handed back to the Governments of Mysore and Nizam respectively. Is that so?

§ Sir S. HOARE

I shall deal with these questions in my own time and in my lawn way.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

I am glad of that, that is perfectly right and proper. The right hon. Gentleman cannot say "no" right away, and he is entitled to make his answer in the form he likes at a later stage. There is the question of the Berars. This is an important point: I am subject to correction on this matter.

118 The Berars are a district in the northern part of the State of Hyderabad which have been administered for a long time by the British Government. The Nizam and his advisers have been anxious to have them back under their own government, an anxiety not entirely shared by the population of the district. This is what the Secretary of State said on the 15th of December to the Hyderabad Delegation at a dinner reported in the "Times of India" on 17th December. It was not reported extensively in this country, but the text is taken from the "Times of India," on which I am entirely dependent as my authority. If it is not correct then my argument, so far as it rests on this report, must be withdrawn. This is what the right hon. Gentleman is reported to have said: We have had one or two difficult questions; to take the single instance connected with the future of Berar, a territory that is part of Hyderabad but none the less administered by the British Government. Obviously, that dual arrangement might make for considerable difficulty in the way of a Federation, if there was not willingness to make an agreeable settlement on both sides. Sir Akbar"— that is the gentleman whose opinions underwent a transformation— and I have discussed the question at some length, and I venture to say that the discussions all go to show that with good will on both sides—and it is quite obvious that good will exists on both sides—more detailed negotiations that are to occur in India in the next few weeks will certainly succeed. I see no reason, and I do not think that Sir Akbar sees any reason why the complicated position of Berar should in any way he an obstacle in the way of the entry of Hyderabad into the Federation. That is an important concession made to one of the most important, perhaps the greatest, Prince of India, not, of course, as a bargain, not, of course, as a quid pro quo, but simultaneously with the vigorous exertion which he and his representatives are making in favour of the establishment of a federal scheme. There was the incident which fell under my own notice at the time when I visited the Joint Select Committee. There was a question from Sir Manubhai Mehta, who is the representative of Bikaner. He was examining me, and after pointing out that the Indian States had great financial grievances against the Indian Government and that they ought to have large financial concessions, he asked this question: 119 15,184. Are you aware that the Davidson Committee also reported that many States had not been fairly treated, and large financial sums were due to them and they would be paid to them only if they entered the Federation. You now stop the Federation. What becomes of their financial claims? Whether he asked this question by accident or design I cannot tell, but I wish hon. Members had been present to see the effect it produced on the Secretary of State for India and upon the Chancellor of the Duchy. Hon. Members have no doubt. seen a hen suddenly disturbed when sitting on eggs and the Chancellor of the Duchy, the Chairman of the Committee, came clucking and cluttering up. Observe what happened. Here is a Committee presided over by the Chancellor of the Duchy, which has been dealing with the question of the sums paid by the native States to the Imperial Government in consequence of the protection they receive from British forces and for other reasons, going into the whole of this matter; and here are the States which are all complaining, as everyone does complain, that the Government ought to make large financial concessions. Here are the Government very anxious to get the States to come into the Federation, to work up to the 50 per cent. which is now all they hope for in spite of the inducements and pressure. And then comes my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy with his report. I do not suggest for a moment that he had any intention of offering any inducement in the report, but it presents the situation that if they do come in they are going to get large financial concessions, and that if the Federation does not go through they are not, as far as we know now, going to get them, or are not going to get them in the present form at the present time.

There, is an instance of pressure, of financial pressure. I am willing to accept. any statement as to the good faith of the Government in the matter, though the point is not what the Government meant. The real point is what is the impression produced upon the Princes of India and the native States by the way this matter has been handled? There can he no doubt, if you read what Sir Manubhai Mehta said, what that impression was. In spite of all these inducements, it really is remarkable that the 120 Government have had to reduce their expectations of the Princes who will come into the scheme down to as low as 50 per cent.

I have definitely limited myself to this one point, which I have tried to approach from various angles. It is not only the right but it is the duty of a Government to have a will of its own and to have a policy, and to declare that policy. I do not accuse the Government of being without a will of its own, or without a policy on India. On the contrary, I think that the Prime Minister and the Lord President of the Council have never changed their policy in any way since it was formulated around Christmas of 1930. Then the Prime Minister, head of a Socialist Government, as we know from the testimony of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. M. MacDonald), definitely decided in favour of a federal system for India, with responsible government at the centre. Since 26th January, 1931, when my right hon. Friend the Lord President, then the Leader of the Opposition, openly declared his intention to support and implement—that was the word—the proceedings of the first Round Table Conference, these two powerful politicians, who control in one way or another an enormous part of the agencies and facilities of our public life and discussion, have steadily driven their policy forward by every means in their power, and such has been their ardour that they have subordinated almost all other considerations to their main purpose. I have no doubt—I give this as a matter of personal judgment—that their agreement upon the subject of India played a definite part in bringing about the great convulsions in our political and party life which occurred at the end of 1931.

During the whole of this long period, more than three years, they have never in my judgment changed their policy. The policy is exactly the same now as it was when the Prime Minister planned it as head of the late Government. The White Paper embodied that policy. The Joint Committee was selected to make absolutely sure that it should be supported. And every step has been taken since which forethought and calculation could suggest in order to bring it to fruition. We see infirmity of purpose, inertia and lack of energy and conviction in many directions in our affairs, but we 121 must recognise the persistency and resolution and. activity which have characterised the action of the Government in this Indian sphere. There is no complaint of that. They have as much right to press their views as some of us have to oppose them.

My complaint is not that they are pressing their views by every means open to them. My complaint is of the discrepancy between their action and the assurances which the leaders of the Conservative party are constantly giving to the public that no one is committed, that the whole matter is sub judice, that the. Lord President is only considering the matter in all its bearings, that all is entirely open pending the report of the Joint Committee, and that all we are engaged in is inquiry and examination. That is the discrepancy to which I have directed the attention of the House this afternoon. It is a discrepancy which I think is unfair—I will not say wilfully unfair, but in fact naturally unfair to the Conservative party and the country, who have a right to be told with candour whither it is proposed to lead them, instead of being baffled and hoodwinked by endless evasions, when all the time every possible step is being taken to prejudice the decision beyond recall.

§ Mr. ISAAC FOOT

I have listened to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman she Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). I also heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman yesterday afternoon. Having regard to the criticism he has made of the Government I have only one suggestion to make to him, and that is that he should cross the Floor. If I felt under an obligation to make such criticism of a Government that I professed to support, as conveyed not merely in his speech of to-day, but in his remarkably bitter speech of yesterday against the Prime Minister, I should think it would be very much better to make that criticism from this side of the House rather than from that on which the right hon. Gentleman sits. I remember the speech that the right hon. Gentleman made in this House on the first King's Speech after the present Government was formed. On that occasion he said that his relations with the Front Bench continued to be friendly. Those relations can hardly be considered friendly now.

122 I remember another occasion when the right hon. Gentleman compared my right hon. Friend to Naaman raising difficulties in the house of Rimmon. I think that other Biblical parallels could be found for the right hon. Gentleman. He said this afternoon that the Government had packed the Joint Committee. But surely it was the duty of the Government, if they had decided on the general policy-of the White Paper, to see that in the formation of that Committee they could get some general support of their policy. I think the accusation of packing the Joint Committee is entirely beside the point. As soon as the Government came to the conclusion that the White Paper proposals broadly represented their policy, surely it was their obligation to see, in setting up the Committee, that that policy should be generally supported.

The right hon. Gentleman should be the last man to make complaint as he was offered a place on the Select Committee. Re said that the Government had had a great chance and had thrown it away. The right hon. Gentleman has had a great chance and he threw it away when he declined to serve with the rest of us. He did us the honour of coming before the Joint Committee on three succeeding days, and I understood he stated to some friends that he had had an exhausting experience. He can, therefore, appreciate the exhausting experience of some of us, day after day, sometimes four and five days a week. It would have been a lessening of our burden if we could have shared it with the right hon. Gentleman. Surely the views that the right hon. Gentleman has expressed with such eloquence here today would have been very much better expressed there. It was very remarkable that he should have referred in such a scoffing manner to Sir Akbar Hydari, when as a matter of fact he was very modest and mild in the presence of that gentleman himself. The right hon. Gentleman when he came before the Committee found himself face to face with some of the people whom he had dealt with in the past. Let me quote from one of his earlier speeches outside this House. In the Albert Hall a few years ago the right hon. Gentleman said: It is a hideous act of self-mutilation, astounding to every nation in the world. The Princes, the Europeans, the Moslems, the depressed classes, the Anglo-Indian— 123 none of them know where to turn in face of their apparent desertion by Great Britain."

HON. MEMBERS

Hear, hear!

Mr. FOOT

I have no doubt that that statement got the like cheers at the Albert Hall. But the remarkable thing was that when the right hon. Gentleman came before the Joint Committee and was face to face with the representatives of those very classes, face to face with the representatives of the very communities to which he had referred, the representatives of the Princes and others, there was no one of them who did not dissociate himself expressly and categorically from the scheme suggested by the right hon. Gentleman. At the Albert Hall the right hon. Gentleman was the champion of the Europeans. On the Joint Committee we had before us the representatives of the European Association. They had come many thousands of miles to speak to us and to give evidence. They gave their evidence on 4th July. The right hon. Gentleman has said that they were astonished in India at this great act of betrayal by the British Government. They gave their evidence and were questioned upon it. They represented the European industrial interests in India; they were Englishmen, with all their stake in that country, so that if things slithered down to chaos and ruin, as the right hon. Gentleman has suggested, they would be the first to lose, their interests would be the first to go. The question was put to their spokesman as to what would happen in India if the White Paper proposal, or something on those lines, was rejected, and the answer, given by Mr. James on behalf of the Chambers of Commerce of India and the European Association, was: I think that I can say this fairly, that the Association would view with grave misgivings the position which would arise in India if reasonable expectations of political advance were now disappointed by the rejection of the White Paper proposals. This would, in our mind, lead to serious consequences, and it would be almost impossible, in our view, to re-establish that co-operation between British and Indian leaders which has characterised the Round Table Conferences and has brought the whole question to its present stage. The view of the Association generally is that it is not practicable to go back behind the present Government of India Act. It is not possible 124 to stand still, and the White Paper proposals, subject to such modification as we are asking the Joint Committee to consider, do offer a reasonable and cautious advance towards the ideal of a federated India. I am glad to make that perfectly clear. I have always said that this is the fairest Assembly in the world. Who is better qualified to speak for these European interests to whom the right hon. Gentleman referred in his peroration at the Albert Hall? I suggest that it is not the right hon. Gentleman who admits that he has not been in India for a great many years like many of the rest of us. But we had the advantage of the evidence of men whose business interests are in India today and who state virtually that unless we have a policy which is generally the policy embodied in the White Paper they believe that conditions in India will go down to chaos and disaster.

§ Sir WILLIAM DAVISON

On a point of Order. I did not interrupt the hon. Gentleman until he had completed that line of argument. I now desire to ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether it is in accordance with the practice of the House for Members to take part in a Debate the object of which is to consider whether they should be reappointed on a Committee or not.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain Bourne)

The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. This Debate is to decide whether or not a Message shall be sent to another place recommending that a certain Committee be appointed. The question of the personnel of that Committee will arise, if and when the recommendation of this House is agreed with in another place.

§ Mr. FOOT

I would ask my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington (Sir W. Davison), with whom I have, generally, the happiest relations, to remember that I have not in this Debate supported the White Paper proposals. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I have not, and I ask hon. Members to refer tomorrow to the official report of what have said. I am dealing with the claim made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) to be the spokesman of these people.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

When did I claim that I was their spokesman?

§ Mr. FOOT

I will quote again the right hon. Gentleman's own words: It is an … act of mutilation astounding to every nation in the world. The Princes, the Europeans, the Moslems, the depressed classes, the Anglo-Indian—none of them know where to turn in face of their apparent desertion by Great Britain.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

Surely it is perfectly possible to state facts, and matters of opinion without claiming to be the representative of all those classes.

§ Mr. FOOT

If the right hon. Gentleman now says that when he made that statement, he was ignorant of their opinion and had no authority to speak on their behalf and had made no inquiry, then it shows what weight we are in future to attach to speeches made. by him on this question. He said that these people did not know where to turn in the face of their apparent desertion by Great Britain. He referred to the Moslems in that connection. In the Committee itself, and it is upon record, the leading representative of the Moslem community in India, the head of the Indian Delegation asked if the right hon. Gentleman would not be prepared now to withdraw his own scheme which had no support as compared with the scheme of the White Paper, and the scheme of the White Paper, he then stated, had the support of every substantial body in India. In the Committee the representative of the depressed classes showed that he was not in fear of this suggested absolute surrender and abandonment.

One of the advantages of the right hon. Gentleman's appearance before the committee was that he was brought face to face with these gentlemen, and that is what took place. It is all very well for him to make speeches in this House and to submit a memorandum, as he did, to our committee, but I was astonished by his lack of courage. It is the first time I have seen any sign of that lack of courage. He submitted a memorandum when he came before the committee, but left out what has always been very largely his contention, namely, that by any alteration in the government of India on the lines of the policy which is now proposed, we should strike a blow at the British prestige. I wanted him to say that before the committee. Why did he not include these words that were used by him a few years ago—words which he will remember, because he not 126 only used them in the Albert Hall, but published them in a book afterwards: Is there any other country in tree world which would tamely submit to be pushed out of its rights and duties in the East? Would France be chattered out of Indo-China? Would Italy relinquish her North African possessions? Would the Dutch give up Java to please the Javanese? Would the United States be hustled out of the Philippines? Ali these countries assert themselves and insist that their rights and wishes in their own spheres shall be respected. We alone seem to be afraid of our own shadow. The British lion so fierce and valiant in bygone days, so dauntless and unconquerable through all the agony of Ammageddon is now to be chased by rabbits from the fields and forests of his former glory.

§ Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOX

Quite true.

§ Mr. FOOT

My hon. and gallant Friend says that it is quite true. Why was it not said in the presence of the rabbits them-elves?

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

I think my hon. Friend is straining that courtesy and good manners upon which Liberalism has always plumed itself. Why should I repeat everything I had ever said, before this committee? Why he should expect me to go there to insult Indian gentlemen for whom I entertain personal respect I cannot imagine.

§ Mr. FOOT

I do not understand the right hon. Gentleman. Is he not aware that his words are of importance, leading as he does a potential Opposition party? Is he not aware that his words, uttered upon the platform of the Albert Hall, may have their reaction in the bazaars and back streets of Agra and Benares, Does he not know that? If it was an insult to make those statements to Indians in their presence, was it not an insult to make those statements in the presence of his own supporters in the Albert Hall?

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

I am really quite unable to appreciate the hon. Gentleman's complaint. To suggest that because I have, in discussion in this country, expressed, as is my right, my opinion on various matters, I should therefore have gone and said harsh words to these Indian representatives in this Committee is most unreasonable. To suggest that it was due to the fact drat I was afraid is really not true. I think it would have shown extremely bad feeling on my part to have said that to them in the Com- 127 mittee. On the other hand, I adhere most strongly to my opinion, of which, as the hon. Gentleman says, they are well aware.

§ Mr. FOOT

If they are aware that that is the right hon. Gentleman's view of our fellow-subjects in India then I would suggest to him that in future he ought to weigh his words, remembering how far they will go. I suggest that this Debate cannot lead anywhere. I do not know why such a Debate has been raised in the House in time which ought to be given to the Debate on the King's Speech. The right hon. Gentleman, the leading spokesman of the section of the House chiefly concerned, comes into the House after the first speech has been made by the Under-Secretary and makes a reference to the brevity of that speech, which he did not hear. Having referred to that quality—which does not always mark his own speeches—the right hon. Gentleman then treats us to a speech which was prepared long beforehand regardless of what the Under-Secretary might have had to say. Why should we be kept this afternoon discussing this matter when the right hon. Gentleman himself admits that we must go forward?

I can give him this assurance, speaking for the Committee of which I may not be a member again, that that Committee will weigh his evidence very fairly and give it all the value to which it is entitled. The right hon. Gentleman's evidence and the evidence of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has been taken but has not yet been considered. The weighing of that evidence, the sorting of that evidence and the balancing of the various representations is work which has to be done later.

It would be unspeakable disaster if the House came to the conclusion that this Committee should stop its work at this point.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

Who suggested it?

§ Mr. FOOT

If the House is agreed that the Committee should be appointed, why cannot we get on with the ordinary business? I am not afraid of this Debate myself, and I do not think I have suffered very much in this Debate. I only intervened because of the extraordinary attack that was being made by the right hon. 128 Gentleman. But it is absolutely essential, if we are to keep faith with India, that this work should proceed, and should be carried through with the least possible delay. It is not fitting that anyone who is taking part in the work of that Committee should express a final opinion.

§ Mr. BRACKEN

Hear, hear!

§ Mr. FOOT

There need be no doubt whatever, and the hon. Member for North Paddington (Mr. Bracken) I am sure has no doubt, from previous speeches I have made in earlier years, as to what my position is upon India. It is my desire to see such arrangements made as shall enable us to have an honourable partnership between this country and India. No statistician can calculate the difference it will make to us in generations to come, whether we have to do with a friendly or an alienated India. My opinion has already been expressed upon that question. I simply ask now that there should not be any further delay, but that with the greatest possible speed, consistent with full and careful inquiry, we should get on with our work. I hope, whatever may be the ultimate decision of the Committee, the collective wisdom of this House when it pronounces on the Bill will help to ensure that long continued and honourable partnership between the Indian people and ourselves which we-all fervently desire.

§ Mr. ATTLEE

I do not rise to take part in the exchanges which have been going on between the different elements which helped to return the National Government. I only rise to state the position of the Opposition. We made it plain when the original proposal to appoint this Committee was made that we were prepared to take our full part in the work of the Committee. We also made it abundantly plain that we were in no way bound or tied to the White Paper proposals. Having served on that Committee I do not propose to express any opinion for or against the White Paper. I think it a grave mistake to suggest at this stage that the Committee has made up its mind irrevocably one way or the other. The Committee has not yet completed the taking of evidence, and I do not think that anybody is hound in any way. Speaking on behalf of Members on this side I wish to say that we are entirely 129 free, but we support the appointment of the Committee to continue this work because it is work which has to be done. I can see no good in further debating the matter unless it, is suggested that, having put our hands to the plough, we should now turn back.

§ Viscount WOLMER

The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Foot) asked why there should be this Debate on the appointment of the Joint Select Committee. I assure him that, as far as I know, no Member of the House is going to vote against the Motion but we have a constitutional and Parliamentary right at this point to review the whole question as we reviewed it last March. In the circumstances I do not think it in the least improper, but, on the contrary, I think it quite right that the House of Commons should take every legitimate opportunity of discussing, reviewing and debating the intensely difficult problem with which we are confronted in India.

§ Mr. FOOT

I quite agree, but would it not, be well if it were debated on the appropriate Vote instead of upon a Motion of this kind, on which I understand the House is unanimous?