SUPPLY

§ The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Philip Sassoon)

I beg to move, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

The need for economy, which left so clear a mark upon the Estimates which I had the honour to introduce into this House last year, is no less pressing to-day, and has had a similar influence upon the Estimates which are now before the House. The effort to effect savings under every head without unduly impairing efficiency, and, above all, without doing anything which might react upon the safety of flying personnel, has been unremitting. Of the success of this unremitting effort the House can judge from the figures now before them; for, as has been pointed out in my Noble Friend's Memorandum accompanying these Estimates, the apparent rise of £26,000 in the net figure to a total of £17,426,000 actually conceals an approximate further reduction of £340,000. And I would remind hon. Members that this follows on a reduction of no less than £700,000 last year, which made the achievement of additional savings in expenditure this year a singularly difficult task. They have, indeed, only been rendered possible by such drastic measures as the decision to close down for the time being one of the four flying training schools; and I venture to suggest that those responsible for the administration of the Royal Air Force deserve great credit for making an even larger contribution to the financial exigencies of the Exchequer this year than last, which, I am bound to add, they have not done without grave anxiety.

Risks have had to be taken. As the House will have observed, no new units have been formed either at home or abroad during the past year, and no provision is made for new units in the present Estimates. The Home Defence Force remains at a total of 42 Squadrons, of which 13 are non-Regular, and 10 Regular Squadrons are still required to complete 1796 the modest programme which was approved as long ago as 1923, and which is already several years overdue for completion. The decision to hold this ten-year old programme in suspense for another year is a practical proof of the wholehearted desire of His Majesty's Government to promote a successful issue of the deliberations of the Disarmament Conference. Pending the outcome of the conference, they are once again prepared to accept the continuance of the serious existing disparity between the strength of the Royal Air Force and that of the air services of the other great nations.

The House is familiar with the fact that, in terms of first-line strength, the Royal Air Force stands to-day only fifth on the list of Air Powers, although, at the end of the late War, we could with justice claim to take, not fifth, but first place, when all the factors which go to make up air strength were taken into account; for in 1918 we had a larger number of trained flying personnel and a larger total number of aircraft than any other nation. The House will also remember that, while air expenditure in this country has shown a steady decline since 1925, other nations have very largely increased their outlay on air services over the same period. The decision, therefore, again to postpone the overtaking of arrears on a modest programme which was deemed to be the minimum necessary in 1923, when the strength of other Air Powers was considerably less than it is to-day, is a gesture the importance of which will not, I hope, be overlooked.

The House will hardly expect me to review or comment at any length upon the deliberations in which the Disarmament Conference is still engaged. It is most earnestly to be hoped that they will, at the very least, result in a satisfactory agreement for the limitation and reduction of air armaments which will remove the menace of their competitive development. The air policy of this country is, and has always been, as I have pointed out on previous occasions, conspicuously moderate and unprovocative, and, as far as we are concerned, we are eager to cooperate in all practicable measures for removing the menace of which I have spoken from the realm of possibility. Nevertheless, while air forces exist, air power is as vital to our great Empire as sea power, and we cannot afford to neglect it. The House will recall the pro- 1797 nouncement of my right hon. Friend the Lord President, made last November, that the kind of disarmament which would leave the disparity between our air strength and the air strengths of other nations relatively as great as it is to-day does not recommend itself to His Majesty's Government.

The measures of air disarmament which we earnestly desire to see effected are such as will leave civilised countries with the minimum strength of aircraft necessary to ensure, firstly, national safety at home, and, secondly, the maintenance of law and order and the protection and development of communications in more backward territories overseas. For these latter purposes air power has finally established itself as an instrument which is at once humane, economical and incomparably effective, a fact to which all the great political officers who have had occasion to employ it over the past decade have borne unanimous and convincing testimony. The final form that these measures will take must depend upon the outcome of the Disarmament Conference, whose discussions no one will wish to prejudice by anything said in this House.

I do not think the House will expect me this year to offer any very detailed comments on the finance of the several Votes which make up these Estimates. I shall be happy to deal, to the best of my ability, with any questions hon. Members may have to raise at a later stage of this Debate. Meantime I will only offer a few words of explanation in supplement of what my Noble Friend has said in his Memorandum. Before, however, I turn to the individual Votes, I should like to make a passing -acknowledgment of the labours of the Private Members' Economy committee, and, more particularly, the Sub-Committee, which was presided over by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow (Sir I. Salmon). I need hardly say that the Air Council have given, and will continue to give, to the recommendations of that Committee the very careful attention which they merit. I should like to say, in particular, with reference to their recommendation that there should be even closer co-ordination between the fighting Services in the obtaining of supplies, etc., that the Air Ministry has always made a very extensive use of agency services. Indeed, if I were to de- 1798 tail in full the various supplies which the Royal Air Force obtains through the agency of such Departments as the Admiralty, the War Office and the Office of Works, I should have to devote a substantial part of my speech to this subject.

The apparent increase in Vote 1—the Personnel Vote—is due almost wholly to a bookkeeping 'adjustment, namely, the disappearance of an Appropriation-in-Aid from Middle East Votes in respect of expenditure in Iraq, in future to be borne directly on Air Votes. Vote 2—Nontechnical Stores, etc.—shows the largest proportionate drop of any Vote, due partly to measures of economy and partly to the ability to budget on a basis of abnormally low prices. Vote 3—Technical Equipment, etc.—shows at first sight a heavy decline of almost £150,000. This is, however, but a small percentage of the net total of the Vote, namely, £7,203,000, and the many hon. Members who follow with close interest the equipment of the force with aircraft 'and engines will, I do not doubt, be relieved to observe that sub-head A of the Vote —which covers the provision of aeroplanes, seaplanes, engines and spares—is only, reduced by the negligible amount of £2,000. It is under other 'and less vital heads that the bulk of the saving has been secured.

The total of Vote 4—Works and Buildings—also shows considerable reduction, despite the provision of £30,000 for commencing work on the new station that is to be built in Iraq under the terms of the Treaty. There is a great deal of overdue rebuilding which will have to be taken in hand when financial considerations allow. On Vote 6 there is also a considerable reduction, especially in connection with the School of Technical Training at Halton, the provision for which is down by £27,000, or nearly 15 per cent. This is due to the far-reaching changes that are taking place in the manning system of the Royal Air Force. A comprehensive review is taking place of the whole personnel of the Service. The most highly skilled trades have been dealt with first, as my Noble Friend has explained in his Memorandum. Actually, the principal change that is taking place is the amalgamation of the two separate trades of fitter and rigger into a single combined trade of fitter-rigger, which is the first 1799 step in a new programme which, I hope, will lead to vastly improved careers for those key men and also to considerable economies in the long run. The introduction of the use of light aircraft at the civilian schools which undertake the training of reserve pilots and other measures, have resulted in a decrease of £52,000 in Vote 7. The apparent increase on Vote 9, like that on Vote 1, is due to a bookkeeping transfer from Middle East Votes. It would otherwise have shown a decline. Apart from an automatic rise in the non-effective Vote, the only Vote to show a true rise which is in proportion substantial is Vote 8, the Vote for Civil Aviation. This is due to providing for the extension of Imperial Airways existing Indian line to Australia to which I shall refer later.

Before passing to the usual review of the work of the Royal Air Force and the development of civil aviation, there is a matter of what I may perhaps term a domestic nature to which I feel sure the House would like me to make a brief reference. At the end of the present financial year the Marshal of the Royal Air Force, Sir John Salmond, relinquishes at his own request his appointment of Chief of the Air Staff, with the characteristic desire that it will help the flow of promotion throughout the Service. I need not remind the House of the very great services which this distinguished officer rendered to the Royal Air Force and to the country during the War. By his work in the difficult years since 1918, during which it has been necessary, painfully and laboriously to reorganise the whole of the Air Force anew, he ha,8 laid the Air Force still further under his debt and, indeed, has left his mark upon every aspect of its activities.

Nineteen thirty-two has been a year of consolidation rather than of innovation, but it has not been unmarked by incidents of interest and evidence of continued progress. Aviation, like everything else, has had to be ridden on the tight rein—or should I say piloted at reduced throttle?—of the prevailing financial stringency. Nevertheless, when it comes to giving the House a review of the events of the past 12 months, once again the difficulty is rather more what to leave out than what to include. The close personal touch that is maintained 1800 between those who are responsible for the higher control and direction of the Air Force and the units of which it is composed was once again evidenced by the successful tour of the air stations of the Middle East which was undertaken by the Secretary of State at the beginning of the year. Leaving Croydon on 11th January, my Noble Friend, in the course of a three week's journey, visited the Air Force units in Egypt, Transjordan, Palestine and Iraq, covering in all some 8,000 miles. At the same time, he was able to form a very good impression of the ever-increasing importance of civil aviation to those countries of wide spaces and indifferent land communications. It would seem from his experience that business men, officials and others are becoming more and more accustomed to look upon air transport as the normal means of travel to and from England and to find that they not only save a great deal of time by it but money as well. My Noble Friend was also able to bring back a first hand account of the keenness, efficiency and good morale of the Air Force units. To quote his own words on his return, As soon as the boundary into Asia is passed, the Royal Air Force becomes the symbol of British power. Early in the year there occurred in Northern Iraq one of those examples of the police work of the Royal Air Force to which my Noble Friend drew attention. The suppression of a turbulent tribal chief, secure in the savage wild-ness of a district where the mountains go up to some 10,000 feet and where road communications are practically non-existent, presented a very difficult problem. The local ground forces sent to dislodge him failed to reach their objective, and parties of them became cut off from their supplies and found themselves very short of food and ammunition. The Air Force was then called in to co-operate. Its first task was to succour these parties of isolated ground forces. Over l½ tons of food were dropped in a single day by five aircraft for the relief of these isolated forces. The aircraft made repeated journeys to and fro between Mosul and the scene of operations. Two other aircraft conveyed and dropped from the air a further two tons of blankets and other supplies for the use of another marooned contingent. Proclamations calling upon the tribesmen to surrender, and giving 1801 them notice that otherwise air action would have to be taken against them, were broadcast in the vernacular from a troop carrying machine which had been fitted with a high powered loud speaker. As a matter of fact, air operations had to be undertaken later on against a few recalcitrant sections and success was ultimately achieved.

In the course of these operations there occurred an incident which admirably illustrates the coolness, adaptability and resource of the Air Force personnel. An aircraftman, who was acting as wireless operator, had the misfortune to fall through the fuselage of his machine. To say that he rose to the occasion, would be to employ a metaphor hardly applicable to the situation. Anyhow, he managed to open his parachute and landed safely. In no way unnerved by his mishap or by the fact that he had alighted in hostile territory, he betook himself at once, aided by his knowledge of the country, gained on previous service, to the nearest post occupied by the Iraq Army, and there this unpremeditated messenger from Mars took complete control of the wireless station and was able to send information as to the course of the operations which proved of great value to Air Headquarters.

A very interesting flight was that undertaken by five aircraft of No. 2 Indian Wing. These aircraft flew from Risalpur to Gilgit, a distance of some 300 miles, flying nearly the whole time at a height of over 10,000 feet and passing very close to some of the highest peaks of the Himalayas. They stayed three days at Gilgit and took the political agent and many of the local chiefs for flights. Apart from the operational and technical interest of this flight over such extremely mountainous country, its political interest and significance was considerable. Many of the areas which were visited from Gilgit had never previously been flown over by aircraft and they were inhabited by tribes who still held that aircraft were a myth. It is also interesting to observe that the journey between Risalpur and Gilgit occupied two hours and 20 minutes—a journey which would have taken 17 days march on foot.

Another operation which contains interesting and important lessons was the transport of a battalion of British infantry by air from Egypt to Iraq. The 1802 House will remember that in the course of last summer unrest arose among the Assyrian Levies in Iraq, and, as a measure of precaution, it was desired to send a small contingent of British infantry at short notice to that country. Those troops were not required to undertake active operations, but were simply to exercise a stabilising influence on, and, if necessary, to replace the Levies for the time being. Large troop-carrying aircraft from Nos. 70 and 216 Squadrons were employed to convey 562 officers and men of the 1st Northamptonshire Regiment, with all their necessary equipment over a distance of 800 miles in less than a week. The work was carried out in the height of summer under very difficult climatic conditions, and was accomplished without any untoward incident. In no other way could assistance have been brought in such strength and at such short notice. If I may quote my Noble Friend again, the sudden arrival of this battalion of British troops, as it were from the skies, impressed the Middle East as something almost superhuman, and there is no doubt that the moral effect of this example of the long arm of the British Government was very considerable. I particularly welcome, too, this episode as a very effective piece of close and cordial cooperation between the Army and the Royal Air Force undertaken to achieve a common purpose.

In addition to these activities, undertaken at short notice and for a specific purpose, the Royal Air Force has again carried out a series of long-distance flights for comparatively routine reasons, but which actually have contributed very much to the development of air communications. As these main flights are mentioned in the White Paper, I will not weary the House by recapitulating them. In all these activities the units of the Royal Air Force are performing work which, though it may primarily be inspired by military needs, is yet at the same time effecting results of a far wider and more permanent significance. They are carrying peace and order into distant lands where previously force has been the only rule, and they are opening up the way for civil transport lines of the future. The work that they are doing belongs to the same order of beneficent and creative activities as those which were once 1803 carried out by the road - making legionaries of the Roman Empire. Now, as then, the development of communication means the introduction of the blessings of an ordered society, and of security for life and peaceful industry in areas of the world where hitherto the life of man has been "nasty, brutish and short."

Here, if the House will allow me, I should like to say a few words about an aspect both of Service and civil aviation which, I think, is insufficiently understood. If one pauses to balance the accounts of aviation, one must readily admit that there is a big potential debit. But there is also a vast credit side, too, and that credit is growing day by day. It is not easy to appreciate in these islands where there are ample—some might say too ample—means of communication and transport, the veritable revolution which the coming of the aeroplane has wrought in the life of those whom fortune has taken to the remote corners of the world. For example, settlers in the back-blocks of Canada and Australia have not only been brought into far closer touch with their kith and kin at home, but their daily life has been immensely eased and improved, and the amenities of civilisation brought to the very door. To take a single illustration, countless lives of men, women and children have been saved by the provision of surgical and medical aid where otherwise accident or illness would have entailed fatal consequences.

Nor is it only civil aviation that has conferred and is increasingly conferring, such great benefits upon humanity. In my speech last year I referred to what I described as the "productive" side of the work of the Royal Air Force in those backward territories where, mo doubt, its presence is necessary and essential for the maintenance of peace. It is a fact which is not generally recognised that the Royal Air Force is quietly and without advertisement taking in its stride daily a vast amount of pacific and productive work. I have just been reading reports from the overseas Commands of the flying that has been carried out there during the past year, and I confess I was amazed at the long tale of their variegated and fruitful activities. Let me give a few instances—conveyance of sur- 1804 gical aids: to sheikhs in the deserts of Iraq and on the inhospitable shores of the Persian Gulf, carriage to remote native villages of anti-cholera and anti-typhoid vaccines, reconnaissance to give flood warnings in India and Iraq, the supply of food to famine-stricken tribes in Transjordan, mapping and survey work in Africa, Iraq, Transjordan, Burma, the Straits Settlements, Siam and elsewhere, the discovery of uncharted reefs, locust fighting, fishery protection, searching for lighters adrift in the China Sea, conveyance of political officers and civil mails to isolated British communities. These are but random samples. Moreover, it is the scale of this work that is so striking. Take the single squadron at Aden. In 1932 it flew in all some 430,000 miles; of these, about 176,000 miles—or over 40 per cent, of the squadron's whole time in the air—were flown, not on police work or patrols or active operations, but actually on such pacific and productive activities as I have described.

I pass now to the principal long-distance flight of the year, that by which a few weeks ago Squadron-Leader Gay-ford and Flight-Lieutenant Nicholetts secured for Great Britain the long-distance record for a non-stop flight. The successful flight of 5,340 miles from Cran-well to Walvis Bay was the direct result of careful and systematic preparation on the part of all those responsible for the construction and preparation of the machine and engine, combined with skilful piloting and navigation on the part of the two pilots. I know that the congratulations of the House will go out to all who have assisted in securing this success. As a result of this, Great Britain is now the holder of the three principal aviation records—that of speed, gained after the Schneider Contest in 1931; that of height, gained by Flight-Lieutenant Uwins, who last year flew to a height of 43,976 feet, that is to say, nearly 15,000 feet higher than the top of Mount Everest, in a Vickers "Vespa" aeroplane with a Bristol "Pegasus" engine. Now we have this record of distance. The fact that Great Britain holds these three key records is a final proof of the excellence of British design and construction, and is bound to have a very beneficial effect upon the market for British aircraft abroad. I wish here to 1805 pay a passing tribute to the skill, courage and endurance of those private individuals, both men and women—their names are household words, and I need not repeat them—who, during the course of the last 12 months, have carried out a series of successful solitary longdistance flights.

In the course of gaining the distance record, as of gaining the speed record 18 months ago, a great mass of scientific and technical data have been acquired which will be of immense value to aviation generally. Progress in scientific research and technical development goes on continuously so far as money will allow, and advances have been made in many directions during the past 12 months, in spite of the very heavy handicap imposed by the strictly limited amount of money available. I should like briefly to acknowledge the debt which all those who are interested in aeronautical aviation and aeronautical science owe to Sir Richard Glazebrook. Sir Richard has been associated with the scientific side of aviation since 1909, and ever since the first institution of the Aeronautical Research Committee, which took the place of the Advisory Commitee of Aeronautics 13 years ago, he has been its chairman, as he was of the earlier body. I regret to say that he is retiring from this office at the end of the present month. His tireless energy and his wise counsel have been of immense service to successive Secretaries of State.

The House will remember that last year it was decided, in the interest of economy, to break up the R.100 and curtail airship work to a minimum. Meanwhile a "watching brief" is being held at Cardington by a small staff who collate airship information from abroad. As a result primarily, I suppose, of economic causes, there has been a definite slowing down of airship programmes both in America and in Germany; but both countries have offered every facility to our own experts to follow what they are doing and to take part in the flights carried out by the "Akron" in the United States and the "Graf Zeppelin" in the case of Germany.

Despite the inevitable effect of the financial depression, the past year has nevertheless been a period of definite progress in civil aviation. In 1932 Imperial Airways' services connected more than 100 European cities by air with 1806 London and just over 41,500 passengers were carried by the company's aircraft in and out of Croydon, as compared with approximately 20,600 in 1931. This increase of over 100 per cent, in so difficult a year is surely a noteworthy achievement. On the Empire routes, for the six months ended September, 1932, the passenger traffic showed an increase over 1931 of more than 50 per cent. Mail loads also increased considerably during 1932, the Christmas mails surpassing all previous records. During 1932 Imperial Airways aircraft flew nearly 6,000 miles a day and during every hour of the 24 somewhere along their 12,000 miles of routes a machine was in the air carrying passengers, mails and freight. Since its inception, the company's machines have now flown 10,000,000 miles and have carried over 200,000 passengers and more than 6,000 tons of mails, parcels. and freight. From the aspect of reliability, the figure for flights cancelled has fallen from 23.25 per cent, in 1924 to 2.89 per cent, in 1932.

As regards the future, the question of establishing a regular weekly air mail service between England and Australia in extension of the England-India service has been the subject of active discussion with the Commonwealth and Indian authorities during the past year. A provisional arrangement has been come to with the Government of India regarding the operation of the Indian section of the route, arid, unless unforeseen difficulties occur, it is hoped that the Service will be commenced in the late summer or autumn. Meanwhile the Service to the Cape is increasing both in regularity and in popularity. It is hoped before very long to reduce materially the time taken in transit, and also to increase the facilities offered by feeder lines along the main route. So far, therefore, as concerns British commercial air transport, the year has been one of real advance and that notwithstanding such difficulties as the diversion of the Indian route between Basra and Gwadar from the Persian littoral to the Arabian side of the Persian Gulf.

I hope that I have said enough to impress the House with the extraordinary vitality displayed by civil aviation during the past year. From that the House may judge of the progress that may be expected when normal times return. Air 1807 transport has already become a commonplace necessity for modern life. If in 1903, the year in which Wilbur Wright made the first successful flight in an aeroplane, anyone had ventured to prophesy that within three decades a British commercial air transport company would convey 1,200 people across the Channel by air in a single week, and that many normal people would choose this method of travel by preference on the score both of comfort and convenience, what would have been said? What developments, therefore, may we not look forward to within the next generation?

The future of Service flying depends Upon considerations which, as I have said, it is not for me to discuss here to-night. But I am confident I shall have the support of the House in saying that, so long as air forces exist, no Government in this country can disregard its responsibility for the air defence of our great urban populations, or do otherwise than maintain the Royal Air Force at a strength which will enable it to discharge its vital responsibilities. Overseas, an air force is essential to an Empire like ours charged with the trusteeship of territories still in the early stages of development. If it were not for the police work of the Royal Air Force and its power to maintain law and order effectively, economically and humanely, there would be widespread rapine and bloodshed over wide areas of the world's surface.

My last word is to ask the House, in justice to the great Service with which I am proud to be associated, to bear this aspect of a difficult subject constantly in mind. I have spoken already of what I venture to style the credit or constructive side of the work of the Royal Air Force. It is the more important that this should not be overlooked at a time when, for obvious reasons, there is a tendency to concentrate more on the debit or destructive side of its potential activities. The 586 men, women and children of 11 different nationalities evacuated from Kabul amid the snows of winter did not look upon the Royal Air force as a destroyer, but as a saviour in a desperate emergency in which the other Services were, owing to the barriers of time and space, powerless to assist. The pastoral tribes of Southern Iraq, threatened with massacre at the hands of 1808 wild bands of fanatical desert tribesmen who regard it as a passport to Paradise that they should have extirpate with every circumstance of brutality all those who do not adhere to their particular extreme brand of religion, irrespective of age and sex, equally regard the Royal Air Force as their one protector, under the shadow of whose wings they can freely pursue their peaceful avocations. The same is true of the tribes of the Aden Protectorate, liberated by the Royal Air Force, after long years, from the tyranny of the troops of the Imam of the Yemen, who had wrested their lands from them by force and subjected them to slavery. This ability to bring succour to the oppressed, to protect the weak and repel the aggressor is a quality which has made a deep and abiding impression upon all those who have been privileged to see something of the activities of the Royal Air Force overseas; and I am sure that the House will understand the legitimate pride which all members of the Service take in this all-important aspect of their daily work.

§ Mr. NEIL MACLEAN

Every Member who has listened to the Under-Secretary of State for Air will agree that only such an enthusiast in aviation as he could have dealt with the subject under discussion this afternoon in the manner in which he has done. He has told us, both in humorous vein and in a serious manner, of the successes as well as of the difficulties of the particular Department over which he has certain control and for which he is responsible to this House. I have listened, as I am certain everyone has listened, to his statement of his stewardship with a feeling that only the individual who has mastered the particular machine with which the Department for which he is responsible is concerned could have dealt with the subject as he has done. He is himself an expert in aviation, and consequently he has shown himself to the House this afternoon as an expert in making his annual statement upon the work of the Department. While appreciating all he said with regard to the success of the Department, I feel that his closing note was not altogether in the same tone, nor did it look upon the future from the same point of view as the Lord President of the Council, in the speech which he delivered 1809 in this House on the 10th November of last year. He spoke of the policing work of the Royal Air Force in different parts of the Empire and of the world where certain tribes had been warring for some time. I am afraid it was at that point that his enthusiasm took supreme control over him, and he seemed to glory in the fact that, compelled by the terrorism which the Air Force could exercise—I am using the word terrorism in the best sense—over tribes who had never seen or known of these things before, those tribes refrained from pursuing warring methods against tribes to which they were opposed. His enthusiasm there, I think, led him into a glorification of what one might call the destructive side of the Air Force rather than the protective side.

I want to deal with the aspect which is presented to us who sit on these benches. We consider that the Air Force to-day, not merely of this country, but of all countries represents the particular terrorism with which the Under-Secretary of State for Air dealt in the closing sentences of his speech. It is not a terrorism relating to a few wild tribes in the barren wastes of Africa, Persia or any other Eastern country, but a terrorism in relation to those we look upon as civilised and consider to be our own kith and kin in this country and in the Colonies. The terrorism from the air which is used to cow certain recalcitrant tribes is the same terrorism which the Lord President of the Council expressed fear might one day be let lose upon civilisation. Therefore, we believe that, that particular side of the Air Force must be placed under proper control, not national control but international control.

I think we shall all agree that, what-ever our views may be with regard to aviation and its uses by the respective nations, the representatives of His Majesty's Government at Geneva have shown a considerable degree of sincerity in their suggestions to the Air Committee of the League of Nations regarding international control and the manner in which it might be brought about. Unfortunately, there seems to be too much discussion, and no policy has yet been agreed upon between the respective nations. Lord Londonderry, the Secretary of State for Air, has put forward certain tentative proposals, but nothing 1810 definite. Already, as the Under-Secretary of State for Air has said, we stand as the fifth Power, and the proposal which has been made is to reduce the air forces of the respective countries to the same strength as the Air Force of this country, and then to reduce the air forces by a further one-third. That will at least be something tangible if it can be agreed upon by different countries. It is a long step forward. I notice that the Under-Secretary of State for Air smiles. I do not know whether his Chief, or he himself, thinks that a fantastic proposal has been made by this country to the Air Committee. At least as far as we are concerned, we believe that it is a step in the right direction, just as international control would also be a step in the right direction.

I have before me a pamphlet issued by a body who look upon the future with considerable misgiving. They quote certain statements made by various people with regard to the production of poisonous gases to be dropped from aeroplanes upon the civil population in the event of a war. The booklet contains a collection of statements made by men who are high authorities in different countries in the realm of chemistry and are looked upon as experts in aviation, not only as far as our Air Force is concerned, but as far as the air forces in other parts of the world are concerned. Even the Lord President of the Council made one significant statement in his speech. It occurred to me when the Under-Secretary of State for Air wad making his statement about the Air Force being a defence. The Lord President of the Council said: The only defence is in offence, which means that you have to kill more women and children more quickly than the enemy if you want to save yourselves."—[OFFICIAL REPOKT, 10th November, 1932; col. 632, Vol. 270.] Those were the words addressed to this House on the 10th of November. If they were true, and the manner in which they were received by those sitting around him that evening led me to believe that they also recognised the truth of the statement, that was the possibility, that in any future wars the skies would be raining death upon the civilian populations, and the only defence that one could have would be to have a more effective Air Force than the attacking force. So 1811 the thing. Would go on. I, like the Lord President of the Council, have no desire, and I am certain that no Member of this House has any desire, to see such a possibility becoming a reality, and we can only prevent it from becoming a reality by taking steps with other Government to place this possible horror under proper control. It is madness for civilisation1 to; leave such an infernal machine as aviation under the control of various countries who on various pretexts might declare war against another country,: and thereupon send a fleet of aeroplanes to hurl death and destruction upon the. people by means of explosive bombs or poison gas.

The scenes of the last war we are told were as nothing in comparison with what the next war holds in store for us. That, surely, is sufficient to make people realise the possibilities of these infernal machines that are being operated for purely warlike purposes. Our Government ought to be prepared to take a lead and point out,:' what the Lord President of the Council pointed out, that there is no defence from air warfare. The Earl of Halsbury in last month's Journal of the British Legion makes the significant statement that they could not merely poison the lakes and the water supplies of a country and not merely drop down terror in the form of mustard gas, but they could even drop various forms of infection from aeroplanes to disseminate deadly disease amongst the community. What a horror is being held out before us in the eventuality of another war, and I am right in hoping that Lord Londonderry and our representatives at Geneva are going to make much further progress than they have done in the past. It is not sufficient merely to say that we are producing not more than one-fifth. Let it go out very clearly and definitely that any nation which is going to make use of the air service for war purposes against another nation will be declared an outlaw against civilisation.

Mr. HA.RTLAND

Like Japan.

§ Mr. MACLEAN

Like Japan. I would remind the hon. Member that if he had been in this house in 1921 and had assisted me in endeavouring to get the Government of that day to take the steps that I thought it was necessary to take 1812 against Japan, Japan would not have been carrying on warfare against China to-day. I would ask the Lord President of the Council as well as the Under-Secretary for Air if they are prepared to inform the House of any definite steps that they are likely to take as a Government in submitting proposals to the League of Nations that would limit the use of aeroplanes. International control is one thing. Using the Air Force as an international police could quite easily be done. There is no frontier now of any nation. Formerly we knew when a country was being invaded when a fleet visited its shores, if it had a coast line, or when an army invaded it by crossing the frontier that divided it from another country. But that is not the case to-day. Even in civil aviation we recognise no frontiers. In our flights to India we pass over countries, without let or hindrance, with no objection being taken. There is no frontier when it comes to war so far as aviation is concerned.

Those who have been making statements regarding the prospects of future warfare have pointed out how quickly we have made progress in aviation. That is something to glory at so long as the Air Force is kept for a proper purpose. Reference has been made to the speed at which aeroplanes can travel now. We are told that Paris could be bombed from London within two or three hours and that London could be bombed from Paris in the same time. A declaration of war would not mean the massing of troops. It would not mean bringing troops into various quarters. The very moment that war was declared, fleets of aeroplanes would leave to go to the country against which war had been declared.

§ Mr. PIKE

Let us have some.

§ Mr. MACLEAN

I have no doubt the hon. Member could have enough if he cared to go out to the regions which the Under-Secretary has described, where he has told us what the Air Force is doing. If the hon. Member glories in that sort of thing he had better preach it to his constituents.

§ Mr. PIKE

I do not glory in being left without them.

§ Mr. MACLEAN

The hon. Member does not glory in being left without them. I am not glorying in being left with- 1813 out them, but I am asking for a proposal to be put forward by the Government in order to stop the possibility of the Air Force being used for the ill purposes which I have described, and I hope I have the hon. Member's support in that. I am using the arguments put forward by the Lord President of the Council and the Under-Secretary of State. I have no desire, and I am certain that the hon. Member has just as little desire as I have, of seeing any of the possibilities that have been described by various writers and even by speakers in this House of what is likely to happen should there be another war. Civil aviation is one thing, but aviation for warlike purposes is another thing. Aviation for policing and for protecting where protection is necessary is a different thing. For the latter purposes aviation could be legitimately used and civil aviation could be used for commercial purposes, but warlike purposes ought to be made illegal, and nations using an Air Force for such purposes ought to be outlawed. The Secretary of State for Air and the Under-Secretary, together with the Lord President of the Council, whose speech created such an impression last November when he drew so horrible a picture of the possibilities of a future war, particularly from the air, ought to use their best endeavours to prevent anything happening in the future such as we had on a small scale during the last war.

There are one or two points in the Estimates which I should like to put to the Under-Secretary. On page 49, under the heading "Mechanical and other Transport," there is an item of £80,000 for marine craft. Can the Under-Secretary explain that item? I understand that certain motor boats have been built for the Air Service. I should like to be told the purpose for which these motor boats were built, how many were built, and what was their cost. Were any tenders invited from competing firms on the Government list for the building of these motor boats, or was the order handed out to some particular firm who were asked to go ahead with a design submitted to them by the Air Ministry? I should like to know what is the method of promotion in the Air Service. Is it democratic I Can a man rise from the lowest grade in which he enlists and be- 1814 come Marshal of the Service, with a Marshal's baton? Is that the method of promotion? I should like to know also whether in the messing arrangements the officer can live upon his pay or whether he requires private means to meet the expenses of his rank. These are matters upon which information is required.

There is also a point that was made in regard to the skeleton staff that is still maintained at Cardington. Is there any intention, when times become better and finance is a bit easier, to embark again on the building of an airship such as the one which has been broken up and the one in which the lamentable accident occurred a year or two ago? As to the new works that are being taken in hand, I understood the Under-Secretary to state that certain places were being built or were being arranged as defence stations in this country. I do not know whether I misunderstood him, but in view of the statement of the Lord President of the Council that there is no such thing as defence in air warfare, I should imagine that any defence stations set up are calculated to be of no use whatever, and that, therefore, they would be a waste of money.

As regards civil aviation, a sum is being given as a subsidy to light aeroplane clubs. The sum this year is an increase over last year of some £7,000. I should like to ask how many aeroplane clubs there are, what particular purpose they serve, what conditions they have to observe in order to obtain the subsidy, and whether they are under any obligation to the Air Service and the Government to be called upon in the case of, say, industrial disputes or in any conflict that might arise among civilians in the country, whether that is part of the obligations to be observed by these light aeroplane clubs in order to qualify for the subsidies which are being paid them by the Government. I would suggest that in this matter as in other matters some explanations are required.

I would also suggest that the Under-Secretary, his chief, Lord Londonderry, and the Government should press forward as strenuously as they can with the idea of internationalising the air forces of the world as rapidly as possible, of endeavouring to overcome the difficulties that may be put in their way by the representatives of other nations, of trying to meet those difficulties and getting 1815 them, removed, and of getting differences adjusted by putting forward a well-thought-out plan for international control of aviation in order to prevent the possibility of any of those things happening that were described in such vivid language by the Lord President of the Council. His appeal was that the youth of the country and of the world alone could save the world, because it was they who would be required to fight in the next war. His speech closed on that note and with that appeal. Therefore, we who are the old men, as he described us, wish the youth of the country and of the world to realise their possibilities and their responsibilities, and we want to place upon them the onus of any future war and to let them know that they must take part in it and face the horrors. If those horrors were brought home to them, the youth of the world would rise and tell the old men who are in the Government of the country to get on with the work of making peace, so that the youth of the world would not be required to risk their lives in cleaning up the mess left by the older men.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

I should like to begin by congratulating my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State upon his extremely, lucid, interesting, and agreeably delivered statement on behalf of his Department. We all heard it with the greatest interest, and everyone knows how absolutely wrapped up in the work of the Flying Service the right hon. Gentleman is. But I think that if our discussion this afternoon was confined solely to the topics upon which he thought it prudent to dwell, if, for instance, we were to go away, as we might easily go, with the idea that the Air Force exists to fight locusts and that it never drops anything but blankets, we should undoubtedly entertain incomplete impressions of some of the issues which are brought before the House when the Air Estimates for the year are introduced.

I think this is the time when we may, without injury or risk, discuss generally these questions of the defensive services. I am not one of those who consider that the state of Europe at the present time is in any real degree comparable with the state of Europe in 1914. Although there is the greatest unrest, and hatreds are as 1816 rife as ever, yet I am bound to express my view—I may be wrong—that I feel that there is not the same explosive and catastrophic atmosphere as existed in 1914; and, therefore, I think we may discuss in cool blood and with calm hearts, or at any rate in tranquil circumstances, some of the technical issues which are raised by this Vote.

I must follow the hon. Gentleman who represented the Labour party in turning especially to the speech, the memorable speech, which was delivered by the Lord President of the Council a few months ago. But for that speech, I would not have troubled the House this afternoon. I agree with what I imagine were the feelings of the Lord President when he wished that neither aeroplanes nor submarines had ever been invented. I am sure they have both been deeply detrimental to the special interests and security of this island; and I agree also with his general theme that the air power may either end war or end civilisation. But where I think we are bound to examine carefully the speech of the Lord President is in the feeling it aroused that he caused alarm without giving guidance.

My right hon. Friend—I know he has an engagement of great public importance—swept away many important things in that half-hour. He did not believe there was never to be another Great War; he thought wars would come again some day, but he hoped they would not come in our time, as we all hope. He had apparently no real faith in the sanctity of agreements, such as the Kellogg Pact, neither had he any faith in the means of defence which are open to civilised communities when confronted with dangers which they cannot avoid. He led us up to a conclusion which was no conclusion. We were greatly concerned, and yet we were afforded no solace, no solution. So far as my right hon. Friend made an appeal to youth, it was very difficult to see what was the moral which he inculcated, and as far as I can understand, reading in the current publications, his appeal to youth has been widely misinterpreted in some of our leading universities.

But there is a certain helplessness and hopelessness which was spread about by the speech of the Lord President of the Council from which I hope the House will 1817 endeavour to shake itself free. There is the same kind of helplessness and hopelessness about dealing with this air problem as there is about dealing with the unemployment problem, or the currency question, or the question of economy. All the evils are portrayed, and vividly portrayed, and the most admirable sentiments are expressed, but as for a practical course of action, a solid foothold on which we can tread step by step, there is in this great sphere and in other spheres of Government activity a gap, a hiatus, a sense that there is no message from the lips of the prophet. There is no use gaping vacuously on the problems of the air or on the military problems with which they confront us. Still less is there any use in indulging in pretence in any form. The spokesman for the Labour party, in a speech which certainly presented, in its full coherence, a definite point of view, spoke with great satisfaction of the proposals which the Government have been making at Geneva. The air forces of the world are all to be reduced to our level, and then we are all to take another step down to the extent of 33J per cent. I gather that that is the proposal.

§ Mr. MACLEAN

I am not satisfied with that.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

Not satisfied, but as an instalment, as a move in the right direction, it gained the approval of the hon. Gentleman. Well, but is there any reality at all in a proposal of that kind? I mean, we must not allow our insular pride to blind us to the fact that some of these foreigners are quite intelligent, that they have an extraordinary knack, on occasions, of rising fully up to the level of British comprehension. Of course, if all the air forces of the world were to be reduced to our level, as we are only fifth in the gamut, or list, that would be a very great enhancement of our ratio of military strength; and they are bound to notice that. So I could not help feeling that the proposals which were made—I only take this one point as an illustration —would sound very well while they were being unfolded, would give great gratification to the League of Nations Union, who, poor things, have to content themselves with so little. They would give the same kind of warm, sentimental, generous feeling that we were doing a great, wise, fundamental, eternal thing that the recent arms embargo announcement gave 1818 to so wide a circle. But I do not suppose that there would have been anyone more surprised than the Under-Secretary of State or his Chief if, when they had made these spacious suggestions at Geneva, all the Powers had suddenly risen and, with loud acclamations, said, "We accept them." I am sure that even my right hon. Friend would have been at any rate momentarily disconcerted. In fact, there was no chance of these proposals being accepted, not the faintest chance, and no one knew it better than His Majesty's Government when they made them.

I do not think we ought to go far in dealing in humbug. There are good people in this country who care about Disarmament. In many ways I think they are wrong, but I do not see why they should be tricked. I think they should have the plain truth told them, and if they disagree they have their constitutional remedy. It is no kindness to this country to go on stirring up and paying all this lip service in the region of unrealities, and getting a cheap cheer because you have said something which has not ruffled anyone, and then meanwhile doing the opposite, meanwhile proceeding on entirely pre-War lines, as all the nations of Europe are proceeding today in all the practical arrangements which they are making.

Another reason why it does not seem to me that these proposals had any chance of being accepted is their effect upon France. Take the position of France. If we were to reduce their Air Force to the level of ours, that is to say, if we are to reduce it by one-third or perhaps two-fifths, if we were to halve their Air Force and then we were to go hand-in-hand and take one-third off what was left, and meanwhile German aviation, whatever it is worth, remained constant, can anyone suppose that a proposal like that in the present state of Europe, and in the present mood of Germany—there are things happening there which cause even her greatest well-wishers the most extreme anxiety —

HON. MEMBERS

Are you one of them?

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

I am not one of them, no, I am not; but still I would gladly see Germany advance along the line which seemed so hopeful in the days of Locarno. As I say, in the present 1819 temper of Europe, can you ever expect that France would halve her Air Force and then reduce the residue by one-third? Would you advise her to do so? If she took your advice and did it, and then trouble occurred, -would you commit this country to stand by her side and make good the injury? If we proceed to argue on lines which have no connection with reality, we shall get into very great trouble. You talk of secret diplomacy, but let me tell you that there is a worse kind of secret diplomacy, and it is the diplomacy which spreads out hope and soothing syrup for the good, while all the time winks are exchanged between the people who know actually what is going on. That is a far worse situation. I am as a fact a member of the League of Nations Union. If I were one of their leading authorities I would be far more irritated with people who deceive me than with persona who, supposed to be lost souls, stated the blunt truth, because unless the people know the truth one day they are going to have a very surprising awakening.

I do not think that these proposals which have been made by the Government at Geneva are likely to be accepted, and I do not think there is any single man in any part of the House who thinks, or who has ever thought, that they had the slightest chance of being accepted. So that part of the conclusions which would follow from the speech of the Lord President of the Council has dropped out. You are not going to get international agreement which will completely obviate the necessity of having your defence or which will remove these appalling dangers which have been so freely stated. Let me say that I am most anxious that in anything that is said to France at Geneva upon air armaments or upon military armaments we should do nothing which exposes us to the French retort, "Very well; then you are involved with us." I would far rather have larger Estimates and be absolutely free and independent to choose our own course than become involved in this Continental scene by a well-meant desire to persuade them all to give up arms. There is terrible danger there.

I read in the newspapers to-day that the Prime Minister has been giving an ultimatum or making a strong appeal to 1820 France to. disarm. Whether you deal with the Army or the Air, you are taking an altogether undue responsibility at a time like this in tendering such advice to a friendly nation. No, I hope and trust that the French will look after their own safety, and that we shall be permitted to live our life in our island without being again drawn into the perils of the Continent of Europe. But I want to say that if we wish to detach ourselves, if we wish to lead a life of independence from European entanglements, we have to be strong enough to defend our neutrality. We are not going to preserve neutrality if we have no technical equipment. That reason might again be urged if we were discussing Navy Votes. I am strongly of opinion that we require to strengthen our armaments by air and upon the seas in order to make sure that we are still judges of our own fortunes, our own destinies and our own action.

I now come to the technical issue which was raised by the speech of the Lord President of the Council—a famous speech, I must say, because how many speeches we make in this House and how few are remembered a week after, but here months ago my right hon. Friend made his speech and I am sure that in this Air Debate it is the dominant theme. The right hon. Gentleman was dealing with the bombing of open towns and the murdering of women and children as an orthodox and legitimate means of civilised war. I cannot follow him in two respects. First of all, he assumes that it would certainly be done. Secondly, he assumes that there is no remedy. I do not think that either of those impressions is a true impression which should guide public thought upon these matters. The right hon. Gentleman said, with very great truth, that the only defence is offence. That is the soundest of all military maxims. But, as can be seen from the context of the phrase which was read out just now by the hon. Gentleman opposite, my right hon. Friend had been led to believe that the only method of offence by which you could defend your own civil population from being murdered was to murder some of the civil population on the other side. But that is nonsense. The true offence would be entirely different.

In a war between two States with equal air forces it would not pay—I put it no 1821 higher; I leave out morality, humanity and the public law of Europe and leave out any success you may obtain from forbidding such methods as the destruction of civilian life—it would not pay, from the military point of view, from the point of view of the self-preservation of the parties engaged in the war, it would not pay any Power engaged in an equal fight, with air forces equal on both sides, to waste its strength upon non-combatants and open towns. To use an expression which I have heard, they could not afford to waste their bombs on mere women and children. Essentially a struggle of this kind, which I pray as much as any man we shall never live to see and which I am resolved to do my utmost to avert, any struggle of this kind would essentially resolve itself into a combat between the two air forces. If all of a sudden two Powers, A and B, with equal forces, went to war, and one threw its bombs upon cities so as to kill as many women and children as possible, and the other threw its bombs on aerodromes and air bases and factories and arsenals and dockyards and railway focal points of the other side, can anyone doubt that next morning he would find that the one who had committed the greatest crime would not be the one who had reaped the greatest advantage?

§ Mr. MACLEAN

What do you mean by that?

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

What I mean is that this horrible, senseless, brutal method of warfare, which we are told is the first military step that would be taken, the killing of women and children, would not be comparable, as a military measure, with an attack upon the technical centres and air bases of an enemy Power.

§ Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSON

What about the moral effect on the people?

§ Mr. CHURCHILL

The moral effect would be far greater if it were found the next day that the hostile air forces were incapable of flying at all. That would have not only a moral effect, but a physical effect of very remarkable strength. But I must say this: While m the first instance in any conflict the air forces would fight and would not be able, if equally matched, to look elsewhere, yet once one side was decidedly beaten this process of torturing the civil population by killing the women and children 1822 might well be used in order to extort abject surrender and subjugation from the Power whose air defence had be n broken down. That is true. Anyone can see that that might be applied. If there were any Power in the world to which it might not be applied perhaps it would be our island, because so much easier methods would be open for reducing us to submission. If we were completely defenceless in the air, if we were reduced to a condition where we could not deal with this form of warfare, I doubt very much whether the victorious Power would be well advised to come and kill the women and children I should have thought that by intercepting all the trade passing through the narrow seas and on the approaches to this island, they could employ the weapon of starvation which would probably lead to a peace on terms which they thought were desirable.

Therefore, it seems to me that the possession of an adequate air force is almost a complete protection, for the civilian population, not indeed against injury and annoyance but against destruction such as was portrayed by the Lord President of the Council, and that, after all, is what we have to think of first. I cannot understand why His Majesty's Government and the, representatives of the Air Ministry do not inculcate these truths, for truths they are, actual truths —to quote a disagreeable word that I have recently learned—as widely, as they possibly can. The only defence is an adequate air force, and the possession of an adequate air force will relieve the civil population from this danger until that air force is victorious or is beaten. If it is victorious then the danger is removed for a long period. Therefore, I do not think that we should; be led by the Lord President into supposing that no means of safety are open to, a vigorous, valiant race. There is means of safety open. While I would not abandon every hope of international 'agreement, I would not base the life of this country upon it in their present stage, but to cut us off from that, on the one hand, and to suggest that no remedy is in our hands in the region of force, on the other, is to expose us to a gloomy vision.

Not to have an adequate air force in the present state of the world is to compromise the foundations of national free- 1823 dom and independence. It is all very well to suppose that we are masters of our own actions in this country and that this House can assemble and vote as to whether it wishes to go to war or not. If you desire to keep that privilege, which I trust we shall never lose, it is indispensable that you should have armaments in this island which will enable you to carry on your life without regard to external pressure. I regretted very much to hear the Under-Secretary say that, we were only the fifth air Power. I regretted very much to hear him say that the 10-year programme was suspended for another year. I was sorry to hear him boast that they had not laid down a single new unit this year. An these ideas are being increasingly stultified by the march of events, and we should be well advised to concentrate upon our air defences with greater vigour. Certainly it looks curious that while our Army and Navy have been increased in expenditure this year, I have no doubt absolutely necessarily, because we had disarmed far below what is reasonable, the Air Force, which is the most fit of all, should be the one to be subjected not to an increase but to an actual reduction.

Above all, we must not be led by the Lord President into this helpless, hopeless movement. Our island is surrounded by the sea, it always has been, and, although the House may not realise it, the sea was in early times a great disadvantage because an invader could come across the sea and no one knew where he would land; very often he did not know himself. On the continent the lines of advance are fixed by the mountain passes, the roads, and the fertile plains and rivers. We were under a great disadvantage 1.000 years ago in being surrounded by the sea, and we suffered terribly from it. But we did not give up; we did not evacuate the island and say that we must live on the mainland. Not at all. We conquered the sea; we became the mistress of the sea, and the very element which had given the invader access to the heart of our country, to our hearths and homes, became its greatest protection, became indeed the bridge not the gulf which united us to the most distant parts of our Empire throughout the world. Now 1824 there is the air. The sea perhaps is no longer complete security for our island development; it must be the air too.

Why should we fear the air? We have as good technical knowledge as any country. There is no reason to suppose that we cannot make machines as good as any country. We have, it may be thought conceited to say so, a particular vein of talent in air piloting which is in advance of that possessed by other countries. Perhaps we have greater numbers who would be capable of making the best pilots, certainly it was most cheering to hear the Under-Secretary tell us of the speed records held by this country, the high-speed records and the long-distance records. At any rate, I do not think I am putting it too high when I say that there is not the slightest reason to suppose that we are not capable of producing as good results for money put into aviation as any other country. That being so, I ask the Government to consider profoundly and urgently the whole position of our air defence. I am not going to commit myself, without an opportunity of examining all the technical and financial details, to any particular standard, but this I say, that, in view of the significance which this subject has at the present time, in view of the state of the world, and in view of the speech of the Lord President of the Council, it is absolutely indispensable that the necessary programme of air development should be carried out and that our defences in this matter should be adequate to our needs.

§ Mr. MANDER

It is not often that I find myself in agreement with my fellow member of the League of Nations Union, but I entirely agree with his description of the policy of the Government for a reduction in air power as being utterly impracticable, and in the nature of humbug, because it is inconceivable that any foreign country would agree to it for a moment, or that those who put it forward on behalf of this country seriously believed that they would do so. But the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) stopped short in his description of the policy of His Majesty's Government. The policy of the Government goes a great deal further than anything of that kind. The Government have made it clear that, provided a suitable 1825 scheme of international control of civil aviation can be devised, they are prepared for the abolition of military and naval air forces altogether; and I most heartily and warmly congratulate the Government on that policy. I hope they will press it firmly and energetically, not in a rather hesitating and half-hearted way, pointing out the obstacles and difficulties but concentrating on the necessity for something of the kind being done.

My regret is that this policy was not put forward 12 months ago when it might have had a decisive effect on the success of the Disarmament Conference, which now looks like coming to an end in chaos and failure. I hope the Government will pluck up their courage and, realising that success on these lines is the only thing which can prevent the rearming of Germany and a fresh race in armaments, ending in another war, will in the next few years and months—an adjournment may be necessary in view of the unsettled state of Germany after the present revolution—concentrate all their energies on devising a practical scheme of international control, thereby making possible the abolition of air forces altogether. There are various ways of carrying that out, but I am not going into them to-day. You might for example have an international register of aircraft in every country, which might be open to an international inspectorate and in that way some safeguard could be provided against its misuse for other purposes.

In introducing the Estimates the Under-Secretary of State, for some reason, did not refer to the ultimate policy of the Government. He spoke of a reduction and limitation of the Air Force. I do not know why he did not use tie word "abolition," because abolition undoubtedly is the policy of His Majesty's Government at the present time. The right hon. Member for Epping has referred to the necessity at all costs of keeping out of any conflict which may arise on the continent. He appeared to overlook the fact that there is in existence the Treaty of Locarno and, however, much the Foreign Secretary or the right hon. Member for Epping may desire that we should remain isolated we simply cannot do so under certain circumstances if we are to honour, as I presume we are, the pledges we gave when the Covenant and the Treaty of Locarno 1826 were signed. Who knows on what day of the week we may learn that the Treaty of Locarno has come into force and that we are called upon to play our part according to the promises we have made.

On the question of international control of civil aviation, there is no sphere of human activity which is more suitable for treatment of this kind. You are quickly over the border of any particular country, and we know the difficulties which exist by the objections raised by Persia and Italy in connection with the programme of Imperial Airways. Nothing would do more to develop the future of civil aviation throughout the world than a sound and practical scheme of international control, which need not interfere with national development on national lines. When travelling abroad I prefer to travel in a British machine, because they are safer and sounder and better piloted.

§ Rear-Admiral SUETER

Will the hon. Member tell us what he has in mind when he talks about international control?

§ Mr. MANDER

There are various methods of controlling international aviation, but I do not propose to go into them in detail on this occasion although I shall be glad to discuss it with the hon. and gallant Member. There is the possibility of making an international register of aeroplanes, which could be inspected by an international staff, and in that way you would get a safeguard against an abuse for military purposes. The question is an extremely interesting one and might form the subject of a Debate to which I should be glad to make my contribution on some other occasion. There are some questions of detail which I wish to put to the Under-Secretary. First, what is the policy of the Government with regard to the development of aerodromes? I hope that he will be able to indicate that the Government are anxious to do all they can to encourage local authorities to acquire land for aerodrome purposes, and that they will make representations to the Ministry of Health or whatever Government Department is concerned so that the necessary loans for that purpose may be obtained.

I would also ask him when replying to make some reference to the conditions of the Royal Air Force in Iraq. Up to the 1827 present they have been responsible for law and order both inside and outside that territory. In future they will be responsible only for outside and not for internal order. Obviously there is going to be enormous difficulty and danger if some internal disorder occurred for which we had no responsibility, and we were called upon to assist the local government in putting it down. I understand that the intention and the ruling is that we must not interfere and the Royal Air Force must not be used for order inside Iraq. Perhaps the Under-Secretary will tell us if this is so, and what steps are being taken to ensure that this rule can in all circumstances be observed.

I hope that the Government will persevere with their policy of the abolition of air forces, but it is impossible to overlook the fact that they may fail and that the Disarmament Conference may come to no such conclusion. If we are driven back upon reliance on our own forces in this and other countries it becomes necessary to ask seriously what is our position. It has been said that we are the fifth air Power of the present time. I understand that during the whole of the Great War with the 41 machines available at that time in Germany, only 300 tons were dropped in this country and 1,880 people killed. I believe that at the present time one country alone—not likely, I hope, to be an enemy—namely France, can with her friends mobilise 4,000 machines which could drop in one day as much as or considerably more than the amount dropped in this country throughout the whole of the War. The striking force of aircraft has been increased three thousandfold since that time. I hope and believe that the inevitable horror of war in the air will be such as to make all countries decide that they are not going to tolerate it. My right hon. Friend the Member for Epping said that you would not get this indiscriminate bombing of women and children. I venture to say that you will. Whatever rules and regulations are made the air force of a country will do all it can to break the nerve and resistance and cause a profound psychological effect upon the enemy country and not only the armed forces, but men, women and children will be brought in inevitably. I think it is desirable to recognise that, because I think it will mean that people will not tolerate 1828 it or allow it to continue. It is not desirable to attempt to carry out what is essentially an ungentlemanly performance, namely, war according to gentlemanly rules.

I desire to direct attention to the great economies which could be produced in the defence services, amounting to many millions a year, if for certain purposes the Royal Air Force were made more use of in doing what is now being done particularly by the Army and to a certain extent by the Navy. The economy and success which have attended its efforts far afield in the Empire are well known, but I venture briefly to recapitulate certain examples. In 1925 four tribes in Waziristan had been creating trouble for a long time. The task of dealing with them was handed over to the Royal Air Force alone, and in seven weeks they brought the trouble to an end. The casualties were under 100. That was done by bombing villages, dispersing cattle and placing a constant strain on all the inhabitants of that area, and the local warriors were so disgusted with this one-sided method of warfare out of which they got no kick at all that they decided to surrender. The whole cost of the operation was about £100,000. In the previous four years the Army had been attempting to do the same work and had spent £18,000,000. That operation of the Royal Air Force was not only successful momentarily, but had a lasting effect, and it was found that we had not only an effective Imperial Police, but a very effective Imperial fire brigade also. In 1927, in the Mohmand country near the Khyber, a jehadwas proclaimed against the British by a local Mullah. Three squadrons of the Royal Air Force from Peshawar brought the trouble to an end in three days, whereas in 1908 a similar task had to be undertaken by 17,000 men of the Army with a large cost in men and money.

Iraq, however, is the outstanding case. I am not referring to the time of the rebellion just after the War when the cost was extremely heavy but the period of settlement after that. The War Office estimated that it would cost annually £7,000,000 to £8,000,000. The Royal Air Force has been carrying out the task during the last few years at a cost of £1,500,000 annually. The last case is that of Aden where there was trouble for it number of years in the territory of the 1829 Imam of the Yemen. It became so serious that the opinion of the War Office was asked. They said that the services of a division would be required and that it would cost £6,000,000 to £10,000,000. The task was handed over to the Royal Air Force and one squadron in one month brought the whole thing to an end at a cost of £8,500.

These are examples showing that for certain purposes the Air Force has an immense superiority as regards time, efficiency and cost over the more old-fashioned method which, until the use of the air was discovered, had to be employed. In view of the tremendous natural opposition of vested interests and the resistance to new ideas which the Royal Air Force has had to meet, they have done extraordinarily well and their work on the lines I have suggested deserves to be encouraged. Take home defence for instance. There is difficulty in obtaining the necessary recruits for the Territorial Army. Surely the Royal Air Force would be in an extraordinarily effective position to protect the shores of this country against invasion? They would be able to look far afield, to see the approaching transports and to bomb them and if by any chance the transports were to reach here and foreign troops were landed upon our shores, the Air Force would have no difficulty in making short work of those who had landed and would deal with them, certainly, in a way not inferior to anything which the Army could do. I do not suggest that you would not want ground forces but I believe that you would want them on a much smaller scale and that the total cost would be less if you entrusted the task I have suggested to this new arm.

In all I say I am, of course, assuming what I hope will not prove true, namely, the failure of the Government's plan for the abolition of air forces altogether. I am simply suggesting an alternative but I infinitely prefer the other course and I do not want to be misunderstood but so long as an Air Force exists in this country and other countries I naturally desire that ours should be, as it is to-day, the most efficient of the lot. Whether aviation in this country is developed upon military lines or as, I hope, upon civilian lines, I am sure that British pilots will continue to do as they have done up to the present and lead the world in this wonderful, new sphere of human develop- 1830 ment in which one is always on active service and in which the highest qualities of mind and brain are called upon at every moment.

§ Mr. HANLEY

In rising to address the, House for the first time I hope that it will extend to me that indulgence which it so regularly gives to new Members on these very trying occasions. We have: heard from the Under-Secretary how the Royal Air Force has "blazed the trail" of commercial aviation to the Cape and Singapore. We have heard how it has carried out survey work and helped district officers in controlling their areas. We have heard also about the air control of the Middle East. On that point I am in disagreement with the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) and certain other hon. Members who urge greater substitution. One has to bear in mind that substitution is only possible in those cases where you have a primitive population scattered over a large tract of country. I do not believe that it is practicable where you have populations concentrated in small areas. Although we have an air line, an all-red route, running out to Singapore which possibly in the near future will be extended to Australia, there remains one development which I hope will be realised and that is an air line to Canada. I feel rather nervous about one point in our existing all-red route and that is as to the first halt between this country and Malta. I feel that in certain eventualities there is the possibility of that communication being cut, leaving a. big gap between here and Malta. I am not an expert—nor am I a disarmament crank—but I am told by experts that that is a difficulty. I suggest that we. might have experimental flights from this country to Gibraltar. I understand that Gibraltar is not very suitable for this. purpose, but that is the only way, as far as I can see from the map, in which we could ensure an all-red route to the East. Experimental flights might also be undertaken between Gibraltar and Malta. These of course would have to be done by flying boats.

One point which I notice as a layman is the lack of development in amphibian aircraft. Looking at it from a commonsense point of view I feel that there might be greater use made of amphibian 1831 aircraft. I expect that hon. Members who are pilots will rise after I have concluded to point out the difficulties involved in the question of weight. Perhaps I am looking too far ahead, but some years ago it was not thought possible to make an aeroplane engine of 500 horse power of any weight less than 500 lbs. There is no knowing what will be possible in a few years' time and there is a great future in the development of these amphibian flying boats. There might be for instance some possibility in various areas of making landing grounds situated near water. Thus if it were too rough on that water to alight you could bring such a machine down on the land. and when it was refueled it could be hauled down some light railway into the water, where it could have a better takeoff next day in calm weather with its full load of petrol and passengers. That is a small suggestion which I hope may be slightly constructive.

Turning to the question of air defence, a lot has been said about bombing, and I think that everybody must own to the fact that they are frightened at the word "bomb." After all, a bomb is only a shell dropped from an aeroplane, and we must realise it as such. We have also to face up to the very hard fact that all these commercial aeroplanes of the larger type are potential bombers. You can either convert them in a few minutes or take them up and throw the bombs out, as was done in the early days of the War. Therefore one has to count in one's armed forces the commercial aircraft of the larger type. We cannot now abolish all aircraft; that is quite clear. Therefore, if we merely abolished the military aircraft, I venture to state there would be a parallel case if we abolished the Navy and left the Mercantile Marine. That would merely mean that the country with the biggest Mercantile Marine would have the lead. If we abolish military aircraft, civil aviation will still be left, and the lead will be taken by the country with the largest number of machines. By improving military aircraft, one aeroplane against the other for the needs of the various countries, it should be possible to maintain a state of equilibrium.

Some hon. Members and people outside the House have suggested that our policy for economic reasons should be to keep the Air Force low in numbers but high in 1832 efficiency. That is a certain safeguard against the larger numbers of less efficient aircraft possessed by other nations. I am not easy about that, and I think that it is a question of numbers—an aeroplane for an aeroplane, a flying boat for a flying boat. We have gone into the Disarmament Conference and we have said: "If you will reduce to our level, we can all come down by one-third." We have offered that and have given a lead, just in the same way as we gave a lead the other day on the arms embargo. That was not acceptable, so we had to take off our embargo. We hope that the other nations will agree to this. It was hinted by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) that he did not think there was much chance of it. Therefore, I suggest that we should try something else. It might be possible for the Government to devise some scheme to get a certain amount of international agreement on the question of the definite allocation of what one may call civil areas. They would take areas of large cities which are not in any way occupied by military works and these would be isolated and by international agreement would not be bombed. Thus the civilian population would be protected. It is true that such an agreement might be a scrap of paper, like some other agreements, but we might start by getting some agreement on those lines. I have tried during my few remarks as a new Member to throw out some ideas to act as a target for those Members who are interested in aviation, and I trust that if I have succeeded in doing that I have not failed in my duty as a new Member, but I urge the Government, as they approach the ideal of disarmament, to see that their feet are firmly planted on each stepping stone lest they fall into the treacherous torrent that lies between us and eternal peace.

§ Lord APSLEY

The hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. Hanley) made a speech to which the House listened with great interest. He made one point which I think the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) missed, and it was important. It was that those who are suffering from nightmares about bombing in future wars must remember that the bogy-man of these nightmares is the civil aircraft—the big freighters and the big liners. These are machines which we 1833 must all produce and which we are bound to produce H transport by air is to continue, as it must. They are the machines which count. No matter what inspectorate we may have, no matter what rules and regulations we may produce, if any nation were to enter into a state of war, within a very few hours these aircraft could be converted into bombers which could drop high explosives or chemical gases or poisons such as we have conjured up in our nightmares. The fighting aircraft are good value for they are machines by the possession of which alone we can prevent bombing aircraft from invading our homes. Therefore no inspectorate which could not say what are fighting machines and what are not could possibly protect us. It is the great carrying machines which can really do harm.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), whenever he makes a speech, whenever he writes a book, and, I am told, whenever he paints a picture, is always able to produce a work of art and not infrequently a masterpiece. I believe that our grandchildren will read his works and will look on him as the Herodotus or the Macaulay of the 20th century. For his style and ease of reading, no one can surpass him, but we are told by our tutors always to be on the look-out for one point, the absence or prevalence of which when detected may throw the whole work out of perspective. In the right hon. Gentleman's most cogent and excellent speech to-day there was a point which I am afraid that we cannot accept, and I do not think that he believes it himself really. It is the point that the Government deliberately went to the League of Nations and made the proposition that all other countries should reduce their air forces to the same strength as our own and then cut them down by one-third, in the belief that nobody would accept it, and that therefore nothing need be done. I am unable, and I do not think anybody else is able, really to accept that suggestion.

What foundation has the right hon. Gentleman for believing that that proposition might not be acceptable to foreign Powers Does he himself believe that we have accepted and that all foreign nations have accepted as a fait accompli that we are to be definitely relegated for all time to the position of 1834 fifth among the air forces of the world, that we have accepted that position and are unable and unwilling to get out of it? Does he not think that other nations may perhaps have an idea that possibly we alone financially, of all the nations of the world, if we desire to do so, can easily return to the position of first which we held just after the War? I wish the right hon. Gentleman were here to listen to the rest of the Debate. Does he not think that the possession of a large air force may not be an unmixed blessing? Machines in the air become obsolete very quickly. It is not quantity, but quality that counts. The Under-Secretary said that under Lord Londonderry's proposals France would have to cut their air force down by one-half. I wonder whether the French would not agree to that proposition with some relief. I do not know whether any hon. Members have seen the French air force in all parts of France, but I have seen some of the machines. They have certainly some very modern and good machines, but they have a lot which are costing them a great deal of money, and I am sure that they would be glad of an excuse to get rid of them. That, I believe, applies to other countries. I am unable without. any further definite information, which perhaps the right hon. Member for Epping can supply, to accept the proposition that the Government made these proposals with their tongues in their cheeks knowing that nobody would accept them, and that therefore there was no need for anything to be done.

I would like to make one or two suggestions which perhaps may be of use. I know that when these Estimates are debated, it is the way of private Members to make many suggestions and hope for answers, but the numbers are so great that they cannot all be considered on their merits. But there is one question which I should be glad to hear is being considered by the Air Council. It is the question of short service commissions. It is possible that we cannot commit ourselves to any general policy on that question just yet. I do not know whether even the Cabinet know as yet for what we are aiming in our Air Service, whether we are simply building and training with the idea that there might he a war of world importance requiring ready protection of the greatest amount 1835 of materiel and personnel, or whether we are yet able to put that definitely by the board and build and train a small but;very efficient police force to keep open our communications, and keep peace within the Empire.

I should like to pay a tribute in a small way and to offer my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary in that he is the only Minister of the Crown whom I have ever heard standing at that Table and telling the House of the work that is being done all over the world for peace by any section of the British Fighting Services. While the League of Nations is deliberating and talking, action has time after time to be taken by the British Forces, and so far we have only been told in the House what has been done by the Junior Service. The same sort of work is done by the Navy and the Army. Whether there is a typhoon in Jamaica or an earthquake in Salonika or New Zealand, the Navy with its cruisers go to the rescue. Whether there is a riot in Cyprus or trouble between the Jews and Arabs in Palestine, or trouble in India or in China, it has been the British Army or the British Air Force or both whose mere presence has sufficed time after time to bring peace when nobody else has been willing to act.

There is this question: Are we training and building for what is, in effect, an international police service, and, if we are, is it not perhaps time to reconsider whether we should not abandon the short service commission, which trains the greatest number of pilots, but possibly not the best quality, or whether we should not go back, anyhow in the case of some squadrons, to long service men? On the Army Estimates the question was mooted by an hon. Member opposite whether Woolwich and Sandhurst should not be amalgamated. I am not sure that I should not like to see a still greater amalgamation in the training of officers, so that we could have a number of Air Force officers trained at the start in colleges like Sandhurst—or Dartmouth for those who are going into the naval branch—and so that they had a grounding in naval and military work before actually learning to fly. I think it will be the experience of many hon. Members that there is great difficulty in getting flying officers with a 1836 sufficient knowledge of military science to enable them to undertake work in cooperation with the Army, and I believe that remark also applies to the Navy, though to a lesser extent.

We should be very glad if there were more co-operation with the Army in peace time manoeuvres, so that the soldiers themselves might know what part the aircraft play. Time after time I have been on manoeuvres and seen machines come flying over—it seems to me flying very much too close, having regard to the power of modern anti-aircraft machine guns. They fly over just as it is getting dark, and then go back, and we never hear what they have seen, or whether they have seen us at all, though it is most important for soldiers to know exactly what can be seen and to know something of tactical conditions from the air point of view. There is a tendency for the Air Force and the Tank Corps to play by themselves and not to co-operate and give information about what they have been able to find out and what they can do for other branches of the Service. If there were more long service commission men I would like to see some of them serving with soldiers and sailors before they are definitely posted to the Army and Navy co-operation service.

These considerations lead up to a question which I think there is not time to develop now—and perhaps the time would not be ripe at the moment—but there is an increasing number of Members in this House who believe that the experimental era of aviation is passing, and that soon the Air Ministry should be placed with the Navy and the Army under a Ministry of Defence. In that event, civil aviation would be taken out of the Service and put with other branches of transportation under one great Ministry of Transport and Communications. Under such a Ministry there would be boards working independently, such as we have in the case of the Electricity Board—and shall have in the case of the London Traffic Board, if it is formed—and perhaps the Post Office and Imperial Airways. Various boards might be set up to carry out the executive work, but all would be working together under one great Department to whom all transport questions, questions of electricity supply, and possibly the Post Office service, would be transferred.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain Bourne)

I trust the Noble Lord will not discuss proposals which would require legislation when we are considering Supply,

§ Lord APSLEY

I am afraid I have wandered a little too fat. I see that the Meteorological Office is included in these Estimates, and that it costs the country £60,000 a year. That is an office in which, to my mind, there is too much duplication, and I honestly do not think we get the best results. They may give excellent service to the Air Force and the naval aviation service, but the ordinary individual who flies cannot get weather reports that are accurate with sufficient quickness. There is considerable room for development in that branch. I raise this point because it is essentially an instance of where, if we had one great Ministry, which included the shipping department of the Board of Trade, we should be able to get far more valuable information. Every ship cruising under the British flag ought to send in weather reports regularly to the weather department of the Meteorological Office, and we should then be able to get an accurate weather report whenever we wished for it.

Another point with which I should like to deal raises the question of aerodromes in London. Under one Ministry this question would have been tackled long ago. There are aerodromes all round London, but there are no means of quickly getting to them or from them. Those aerodromes were mostly started as small clubs by a number of enthusiastic gentlemen who no doubt lived in London and possessed their own cars, and there was no idea at that time that they would be used by the ordinary individual who comes up to London periodically from the country, say twice a week, and wants to get to some place in the City of London. No provision is made for such air travellers. For the development of Civil Aviation there must be at least one central aerodrome, or a number of outlying aerodromes, with speedy communication with the centre of the Metropolis. That must be brought about, and one Department would have done it. The Ministry of Transport, if working with the Air Ministry, could have done it long ago. I have seen projected a scheme for a large aerodrome to be built over the top of some houses somewhere near King's 1838 Cross, and to be in the form of a cartwheel. If that is really so I should be glad if we could have some information about the scheme; and if those plans are only in the air, and are not likely to materialise, I would ask my hon. Friend whether there is not some possibility of vacant land at say, Wormwood Scrubs, being developed as an aerodrome and provided with communication by rail or tube or even omnibus with the centre of London. Without some such provision for people to get into London speedily we shall never really make great strides 'n Civil Aviation in this country.

§ Mr. AMERY

Tempted though I am to follow my Noble Friend into the very interesting discussion which he has initiated, I feel that I had better confine myself to the theme with which I want to deal, and that is the policy of His Majesty's Government on Disarmament. That policy is referred to very briefly in the Air Minister's Memorandum. It is stated that it is fully explained in a Command Paper, and that no comment is required on the wider aspects of that policy. The manner in which the Secretary of State for Air has dismissed those proposals speaks volumes in itself. It would be very interesting if we could have his own frank comments on the proposition which His Majesty's Government put before the Disarmament Conference at Geneva. Whether the Secretary of State for Air wishes to comment on those proposals or not, I believe the proposals to be so ill thought-out, so unworkable, so fraught with danger to the whole structure of the Empire, that they ought not to pass without challenge or comment in this House.

Let me remind hon. Members of the genesis of those proposals. In November last the Lord President of the Council delivered a very remarkable speech, which interested, surprised and mystified the House of Commons. It was a speech in which he brushed aside as futile all attempts to disarm by the limitation of the size of aeroplanes or to make provision for protecting the civil population against aerial bombardment, and laid down the doctrine that all air war in future would be a mutual massacring of the civil population, because aerial defence is impossible, and that it would end in the wiping out of European civilisation. He came to the conclusion that 1839 if flying itself could not be abolished, which I rather gathered he would like to see, at any rate it was his firm conviction that, if it were possibl