DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH FOR SCOTLAND.

§ The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton)

In presenting Estimates for the Department of Health for Scotland amounting to £2,800,000 odd it would be possible to cover an immense range of subjects because it is the function of that Department to deal with a large and varied number of topics in connection with the Government of Scotland. Even to enumerate them would take some time: they include such matters as housing, town planning, health insurance, hospitals, medical services, and the special features of many of these services in their relation to the Highlands and Islands. I am glad to be able to tell the Committee that but for the fact that the Estimate for housing has increased by £140,000 the total estimates for the Department would show a decline of almost £40,000. Part of that decline is due to the National Health Insurance Grant but almost £8,000 of it is due to administrative economies.

The Department itself has cost just short of £8,000 less to run this year than 948 in the previous year, and that has been mainly, but not exclusively, caused by the fact that the staff has been reduced from the figure of 765 to the figure of 742, a reduction of 23. I am sure the Committee will be glad to know that of these 23 men who were dismissed from the Department, two who are surveyors, have entered into private practice with the best prospects of success; of the 10 who applied to the Employment Exchange for employment, nine have got into work; and we understand that of the balance the great majority have found places in private work. I say that, because anybody who is responsible for securing a reduction in the staff of an office must feel that it is all-important to know what is the fate of the men whom the exigencies of national economy make it necessary to cause to leave the public service. On the whole, I must say that I am not dissatisfied with the situation and with what has happened to the 23 men.

Of that great range of subjects to which I have referred, I propose to select a certain number of the most salient— many of them, I am glad to say, I think the Committee will regard as satisfactory, though one or two show undoubted features of anxiety—and leave to other hon. Members the duty of raising any particular question which I have omitted and in which they may be specially interested; and to such questions I hope I shall be able to give some answer which will be of value to those who raise them. Of the subjects which I would like to place before the Committee housing, I think the Committee will agree, remains of the greatest importance, and indeed it may be said that it is even more important this year than last, because the housing policy of the Government, both in England and in Scotland, has now materialised in two Acts of Parliament. It will be of interest to the Committee to indicate as well as I can at this early stage, because the Scottish Housing Bill became law only on the 18th May, the kind of tendencies and results that are already showing from the new legislation.

But let me first summarise the general situation with regard to housing dealt with in the report. Remembering that the report of the Department embraces a period up to 31st December, 1932, let me give the Committee one or two salient 949 figures of the housing situation then. Houses completed in 1932 amounted to 15,818—not the highest figure there has even been, but among the best figures. Even more important, however, are the houses which were under construction and approved but not begun at the same date, namely, 3lst December last—that is to say, all the other houses beyond those already completed—and there the figure is most interesting. The houses under construction and approved but not begun were at that date at the very high figure of 30,777, the highest figure which has been reached in Scotland since the Housing Acts were first passed into law, and indeed almost 4,000 higher than the previous record. I think the Committee will recognise that that is a very satisfactory figure, and it will explain to many Scottish Members what they see with their own eyes when they go to their constituencies, namely, the immense activity in housing and the immense pressure there is on various forms of housing materials.

Let me now give the Committee the figure of slum houses completed, and I lay emphasis on the figure for this reason. Stated on broad lines, the general policy of the Government with regard to housing has been that the local authorities, both in Scotland and in England, should concentrate upon slum clearance and that normal housing should be done by unassisted private enterprise, though guarantees should be given to building societies, with the exception that there is in Scotland one other subsidy, namely, the £3 subsidy for houses to be let to low wage-earners at rents not exceeding 6s. per week, or 6s. 6d at the utmost. It is all-important, now that we are in a period when the attention of the local authorities is to be concentrated upon slum clearance, to see how the matter of slum clearance stood at 31st December last, and what progress has been made in the five months which have elapsed since Scotland knew that that was the policy of the Government.

I will therefore rive the slum clearance houses which were completed by the end of 1932. They were 19,699. What has happened in the five months since? Tenders have been approved for a larger number of slum clearance houses than have ever been approved in a corresponding period in any year Slum clearance 950 began roughly in 1923. It was not until 1931 that the figure for tenders approved for this period of five months nearly reached the 2,000 limit; in 1932 they rose to 2,969; and for the first five months of this year that figure is 3,739. Therefore, in the first five months of this year, we have reached a figure 770 in advance of the corresponding period of last year, and a very much larger figure in advance of the year before that. I think those are satisfactory figures, because they show that the local authorities are concentrating upon slum clearance and are continuing the admirable efforts which I have repeatedly told the House and the Committee they have made in Scotland and are still constantly increasing the number of slum clearance houses which they propose to build.

Having made the point clear that the number of tenders approved for slum clearance houses for the first five months of 1933 are well in advance of any similar period, I will give the Committee figures which show how constantly since slum clearance was first begun the interest and efforts of Scottish local authorities in this vital branch of housing has increased. In the first year tenders were approved for 1,100; in the second year, 1,400; third year, 2,400; fourth year, 2,100; fifth year, 2,800; sixth year, 1,600; seventh year, 1,700; eighth year, 2,100; for 1931, 5,600; and for 1932, 8,300. Those figures show the valuable assistance of the 1930 Act and how fully the local authorities in Scotland are responding to the task of clearing the slums. Do not let it be supposed that that task is complete. We are all well aware that it is not, and no effort that my right hon. Friend and I and the Department are able to make to advance slum clearance will be left unmade. Any efforts we may make at the centre will not be taken on the whole with regard to unwilling authorities. We shall assist local authorities which have already shown that they are not unmindful of the need for clearing away slums.

The Committee will want to know about the £3 subsidy houses. It was freely prophesied in the Debates on the Housing Bill that the £3 subsidy would never be used. The Bill has been an Act for only just over a month. Already 104 £3 houses have been finally approved, applications are in for 668, and inquiries are going on about a larger figure which I 951 cannot give the Committee. I do not think that the Committee will have any cause for dissatisfaction that there should have been that number in the first month. When we recollect how strictly the houses of that type are confined to the low wage-earner, we can feel that we are dealing with one of the difficult problems of Scottish houses.

§ Sir ROBERT HAMILTON

In what part of Scotland are these applications?

§ Mr. SKELTON

I will see if I can give the information in my reply.

§ Mr. TRAIN

Are we discussing the 1933 Act? Surely we are discussing the Acts of 1932?

§ Mr. SKELTON

I do not think that it is outside the custom on the Estimates to discuss the whole situation. Indeed from a constitutional point of view we are dealing with money that is spent partly in this year, and although the report deals with a period up to last December, it is a useful peg on which to hang a discussion of the present position. I should be sorry to have the discussion on the money that the Committee is to be asked to vote for this year only about what happened last year.

I want to say a word on the subject of costs. The situation is satisfactory for we have constantly been reducing costs of houses in Scotland. I will give the average costs for all types of houses for 1932 and the average for the tenders approved for the first five months of this year. Even in that short time the fall in cost is considerable. For all types of houses for 1932, the average cost was £300, that is, builders' cost only. That average of £300 has fallen to £285 for the first five months of this year. Decreases to £232, £240, and £250 can be found over a wide range of towns. The figures justify the position we took up in the Debates on the Housing Bill, that there was a definite decline in the cost of houses. That is of interest again as bearing on the value of the £3 subsidy.

I will next deal with the question under the last Housing Act of private enterprise and the building society guarantee which was embodied in Section 3. My information must be in general terms. Fourteen building corporations have been formed, and I do not think that it would 952 be unfair to say that they probably involve the construction of some 4,000 houses. It must not be taken that the activities of these corporations will be confined to building houses to let under the guarantee, and I am not able to say at the moment what number of that rough estimate of 4,000 houses will be houses to let. The formation of those 14 corporations shows the extent to which private enterprise is rousing itself to the task. Private, or what is called speculative, building is still going ahead in spite of the disappearance of the subsidy to that form of housing. I think that I am justified in saying that, short as has been the period since the Government sketched out their new policy, there are clear and satisfactory indications that private enterprise is addressing itself to the task of supplying the working-class with houses.

I would like to say a word about the progress of reconditioning rural houses under the Acts of 1926 and 1931. At 31st December, 1931, that is a year and five months ago, 11,000 odd approvals had been given for the reconditioning of rural houses, and the completions amounted to 8,000 odd. At 31st March, 1933, which is the last date for which I have got statistics, that is some 15 months later, the approvals had increased from 11,000 to 14,500, that is 3,500 more, and the cottages in which the improvements were completed had increased from 8,000 to almost 12,000, namely, 11,908. That is to say, in those 15 months almost 3,500 new cottages had been approved or reconditioned, and in almost 4,000 the improvements had been completed. When you consider the comparatively small number of rural cottages, these figures are not unsatisfactory. I, myself, think that they are most satisfactory. They show that the activity which is going on under the Housing (Rural Workers) Acts is still great, and anyone who has seen the difference between a cottage before it was improved and after it was improved, must realise what it means to Scottish rural life that almost 12,000 rural cottages had by the end of March undergone that improvement.

There is one last topic upon which I would like to touch with regard to houses. I spoke last year, and I have spoken on various occasions since, as to the necessity of the houses which have been built by subsidy being tenanted by people who 953 really are suitable to receive this assistance from the State, and I venture to recall to the Committee that the average State assistance given in the case of an Addison house amounts to 15s. 9d. a week, which is a very considerable contribution. Everyone knows the high class of house erected, and I think that public opinion is agreed that if Parliament has devoted immense time, a great deal of legislation, and large sums of money to the building of houses for working people, it is of vital importance that they should find tine right occupants. There are a great many propositions which receive general agreement, but when you come to apply them to individual cases, undoubtedly there are people who may feel that the shoe pinches, and I have seen indications in questions and answers, and, indeed, in a Debate on the Adjournment, that some Members were conscious of a certain pinch of the shoe when my right hon. Friend circularised the local authorities drawing their attention to the recommendations of the Consultative Committee which we had upon the subject, fortified as they were by the recommendations of the Lovat Committee. Let us see what is happening with regard to the means test. First of all, let me say what is the reaction of the local authorities to our original circular. Some immediately instituted inquiries, some have undertaken to apply the test in future cases, and some seem at present more doubtful. There are various degrees of virtue, but already the results show that the thing has been worth doing, and that not to do it would be a breach of duty on our part.

Let me take one or two examples. The Committee may remember that Aberdeen was the cause of some anxiety to some Members here, because the questionnaire on the subject of the incomes of the occupants of houses put before those occupants aroused at the time a certain amount of disturbance in that city. Well, that disturbance has been got over. We may hear something about it later on, but the fact is that, as a result of that questionnaire, 70 houses in Aberdeen have been left vacant by their tenants for the use of more suitable tenants. In all cases, I understand, tenants have been got and without reduced rent, moreover now, or presently 164 extra houses will produce a larger rent.

§ Mr. MACQUISTEN

Does the hon. Gentleman mean by "more suitable tenants," people whose income is lower?

§ Mr. SKELTON

Yes, that is what I mean. In the case of 164 houses, the rents have been raised by figures between 25s. and £5. That is one example. It may be said that these are not very large increases, but it is important to realise that in the case of the vacated houses you have an immediate opportunity of putting into them overcrowded families, and that when you have an increased rent, you obtain, in the case of the Addison house, a definite, though small, reduction of the burden on the State, and in the case of a 1924 house a reduction of the local burden upon the rates contribution. These are results which, it may be said, are not spectacular, and will not give you money on a gigantic scale. But it seems to me that the first task of administration is to see that the intention of the law is carried out, and the second and not less important task of administration is to see that the money which Parliament supplies is spent to the best advantage.

I said a moment ago that all local authorities have not made exactly the same response. That is true. Some say they will take action immediately, some in the future, and some, with truth, say that their town is so small, and the number of houses built so few, that they know without any inquiries for this specific purpose that the tenants occupying them are suitable. But the fact is, I am satisfied with the start of this policy. I am satisfied that local authorities are anxious to help. I am satisfied that in this matter the local authorities of Scotland, and Scotland generally, are in favour of this effort to ensure that the houses built are properly used, and I desire to say to the Committee and to Scotland that any assistance the Department can give to local authorities in this work will be most fully given. I want to make it quite clear that the start has not been unfavourable, that we are convinced the policy is a right one, and that we are perfectly satisfied that it must be pursued in the interests of those people who ought to be in the houses which were built for them, or, alternatively, in the interest of the State where those people in houses could pay a higher rent, and to the interest of the locality which would benefit by a more full return for their money.

§ Mr. McGOVERN

In connection with Aberdeen, the hon. Gentleman has told us of 70 people who, I take it, have such incomes that they can get houses outside the subsidy scheme. Will he tell us the number of people in the Aberdeen subsidy scheme who cannot afford to pay the rent, and is there any intention to subsidise those people to a greater extent?

§ Mr. SKELTON

I think it would be better if I followed the course of my speech than attempt to answer those questions, and, indeed, I prefer to deal with that subject in my reply. To answer the questions adequately means rather a full statement.

§ Mr. McGOVERN

But the hon. Gentleman has that information about Aberdeen.

§ Mr. SKELTON

I have certainly not got that information. I am concerned at the moment in seeing that suitable tenants get into the houses. The question of the rent which is to be paid by the suitable tenant is a question which, broadly speaking, is settled when the housing scheme is fixed, and I am unwilling to go into the details which an answer would involve. I would prefer now to deal, not with details, but with the general situation. I content myself with saying, on the subject of the means test, that I am satisfied that it is worth doing, that it should be done, and that we should assist the local authorities, and I have no doubt that, as the months go on, more and more local authorities will find that this result can be obtained without any alarming degree of friction or heat being engendered. I may add, as a matter of practical example, that I have noticed, although I will not give names or places, that there is already a slight tendency for people to slip out of those houses without any particular inquiry being instituted, and I should not be surprised, and I do not think the Committee would be, if it turned out that there are a good many people in Scotland in those houses who know that they should not be there. I leave the question of houses.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD

Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the question of the means test for houses, or before he comes to reply, seeing that he wants to get better posted in the details—

§ Mr. SKELTON

I never said anything of the sort.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD

The hon. Gentleman said distinctly that he would prefer to reply in detail later on. In order that he may be prepared with a reply later on, I want to put this point, which was raised by the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) on the means test. The hon. Gentleman is taking up a certain line as far as those who are well off and can afford to come out of those houses and go to other houses. The question which arises, a far more serious one to us, is, What is to be done about those who are being evicted because they are not able to pay the rents of these new houses? Are you making any provision for them? Take the case of my own constituency, because it was that case and not the case of Glasgow which I raised with the Secretary of State for Scotland—

§ Mr. SKELTON

The hon. Member must realise that I am in the middle of putting the Estimates before the whole Committee, and while I am willing to give way to answer a question or two I am not inclined to allow my speech to take the form of a sandwich composed of, no doubt, very dry bread, with extremely stimulating meat provided by the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) in the middle of it. I think I have the hon. Member's point, and if not I will take the opportunity of talking over the matter with him.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD

On a point of explanation. It is not my fault that I have only just arrived. I have come here from the Committee considering the Road and Rail Transport Bill. We sat all the morning, and then it was decided, at the behest of a Member of the Government, that we should meet from 2 to 4 p.m. That is why I was not here at the beginning. I do not want the hon. Gentleman to think that I was breaking into his speech.

§ Mr. SKELTON

I am much obliged to the hon. Member. I appreciate very much the courtesy which he has always shown to me over a long period of years, and I hope that when he occupies the position that I do—

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD

What a hope.

§ Mr. SKELTON

—he will realise that there are a large number of topics to be dealt with, and that one is anxious to get on with the job, so that continuity of attention on the part of the Committee may not be broken. I shall take the opportunity of having a private discussion with my hon. Friend before I reply. I think I have dealt with the main topics connected with housing sufficiently to indicate to the Committee the general situation, though, as the Committee well know, the interest in it is endless, and we could spend many happy hours in its discussion.

The next topic with which I wish to deal is town planning. It is of importance, and I think satisfactory, that the City of Glasgow, with its environs, is now completely town planned, and that the City of Aberdeen, with a circle of the country extending over 96 square miles, has now got an admirable town planning scheme. I am not going into the merits of town planning, but I will say two things. One of the results of town planning in the case of Aberdeen has been that the banks of the Dee, from, I think, eight miles inland to Aberdeen, are preserved for all time as a beauty spot, and as affording an admirable entrance to that city whatever degree of development may come to it. Let me give an example of the necessity of town planning which came to my notice the other day, not in Scotland but in the South. Only last Saturday I was approaching the outskirts of a town and, about four miles away from it, came upon a small country house of the rather large villa type. Immediately behind it a private enterprise building scheme was putting up rows and rows of small houses. What was the result? The villa house was already up for sale. Inquiries convinced me that the value of that house to the owner had been reduced by many thousands of pounds; but the loss of value was not confined to the owner. It had a rateable value which was going down,. and when in fullness of time it comes to be valued for death duties it will have a value not of £5,000 or £6,000 but of only £1,800 or £2,000. In such a case the absence of proper planning means an absolutely unnecessary and a cruel loss of value not merely for the individual but for the State and for the locality. Therefore, it is a matter for congratulation that 958 the greatest city of Scotland, Glasgow, and the great city of Aberdeen, with certain of their surroundings, are fully town planned. The extension of town planning, although the full fruits of it are gathered only slowly, is most necessary in order that the future development of our country should be along right lines, that amenities should be preserved, and that values should not carelessly and ruthlessly be thrown away.

On the question of public health in Scotland, I cannot say that I am altogether satisfied with the figures which are before the Committee in the annual report. Here, I shall confine myself to the figures in the annual report, because they are the latest statistics before me. The question of human public health falls into three important divisions—maternal mortality, infantile mortality and infectious diseases. Maternal and infantile mortality are dealt with on pages 56 and 57 of the report. The figures for maternal mortality in 1932 show a slight rise, having gone up from 5.9 per thousand to 6.4. Fortunately, they are not higher than in the year before that, and some of the previous years, but the serious and remarkable thing about maternal mortality is that it has been increasing steadily ever since 1855. It is a most mysterious phenomenon, and I do not think it is confined to Scotland.

All I can say is that we are not being idle in the matter. We have had a close investigation into a number of fatal maternity cases but the doctors, our medical advisers and others who are skilled in this subject say that it is unwise to attempt to draw any final conclusions from the records of the fatal cases only, and that we must supplement them with the records of all cases. In the middle of December, 1932, we instituted an investigation, to extend over six months, into every case of child-birth in Scotland. That period has just closed, and when the results of that investigation are examined I believe that we shall have data more complete than exist elsewhere for the attempt to grapple still further with this most difficult and perplexing problem. Until we have put the new facts before the medical experts it is idle to attempt to say anything more about the subject.

The figures of infant mortality, too, I am sorry to say, show a slight rise, 959 though a very slight rise, over those of the previous year. The figures for 1932 are 86 per thousand, which is four per thousand above the figure for 1931 and I above the average of the last five years. When I made efforts to investigate this matter for myself, the most striking feature which presented itself to me was not the comparatively small rise over the previous year's figures, though that is undesirable, but the fact that for a long period of yeans Scottish infant mortality has been definitely higher than the English.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD

That is due to our housing.

§ Mr. SKELTON

Let me give my own explanation. The medical experts are not so clear about it.

§ Mr. MACQUISTEN

The weather has to be taken into account.

§ Mr. SKELTON

I think my hon. Friend the Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten), with his knowledge of the weather, seems to be nearer the mark. At all events, the fact is that for a number of years the Scottish infantile mortality rate has been higher than the English, although for a previous period the English rate was higher than the Scottish. The difference has been in the nature of some 15 per thousand over a considerable period of years. What is interesting is that when one analyses the English figures one finds that, speaking broadly, infant mortality increases as one goes north, and that in Northumberland and Durham the figures of infant mortality are almost exactly comparable with the Scottish figures. When I made inquiries I found that the matter had been reviewed by Sir Leslie Mackenzie 10 years ago in a previous report by the Department, and the conclusion he came to, tentatively, was that there was some relation between climate and infantile mortality. The point that has been made, and it seems to have medical foundation, is that it is not the intensity of the climate but its variability that is the evil influence on the life of the very young. I was startled when I first saw the difference between the figures for England and Scotland, and then I was interested and not quite so disturbed when I found that the further north one went in England the nearer 960 one approximated to the conditions in Scotland. I throw the facts out to Members of the Committee, and I have indicated the various assumptions which can be made from them.

Next I come to infectious diseases, a subject not to be lightly disregarded. Apart from the effects which follow them and the deaths for which they are responsible, infectious diseases are the cause of an immense disturbance of family life and of education and a considerable increase of expenditure both private and public. The only feature with regard to infectious diseases to which I wish to draw attention is the disturbing one that last year we had an epidemic of scarlet fever in Scotland which brought up the cases from 18,000 to 28,000. That raises the question of whether we are doing all we can to emphasise the necessity of the prevention of disease as well as doing our best to cure it. There has been an immense amount of work in recent years on the question of immunisation. which is the making of people immune from various diseases by inoculation. I notice with satisfaction that when scarlet fever spread to Zetland the local authority took steps to make available to private practitioners means of immunising their patients. I believe that that was a valuable help in dealing with the epidemic. I do not think that medical opinion would say that we are fully aware of the range of diseases in which immunisation may be of assistance. The practice of immunisation is far advanced in the case of scarlet fever, but many people think it is also valuable in influenza and other diseases because of our expanding skill and knowledge upon the subject. I shall not attempt to give any answer upon that point, but the fact that you can have a sudden attack of such a disease as scarlet fever raging through Scotland in one year in such a way as to be thoroughly disturbing, raises the question of whether we can, in the matter of infectious diseases, do more in the way of prevention. I propose, so far as I can, to follow up this subject, and perhaps a future Under-Secretary, in a future year, may have more to say to the Committee on this interesting matter.

So much for measures connected with human health. I will now draw the attention of the Committee to an extremely 961 important function of the Department of Health connected with animal welfare. I refer to the inspections, one of which per annum is statutory, of the dairy herds of Scotland by veterinary officers. There are many counties who do not have one inspection, but three. The value of these inspections cannot be gainsaid. They result in an earlier detection of the tuberculous cow, and in an earlier elimination of the risk of infection therefrom. I wish publicly to express my thanks, the thanks of my right hon. Friend and of the Department, to those counties which have exceeded their statutory duty of one inspection. The Committee will see that if the veterinary officer goes round three times a year to each farm where there are cows, he thereby reduces the period during which a tuberculous cow may be giving milk, and the appearance of tuberculosis is noted at a very much earlier stage. I assure the Committee that no effort of mine will be wanting to see that the standard of this most valuable work is made as high as possible. For the benefit of those hon. Members who are particularly interested in agriculture, may I say that one of the ways in which the dairy industry, as a branch of our national agriculture, may most be helped, is by giving consumers a greater confidence in the purity of the produce. From that aspect, the increase and development of the system of dairy inspection is a matter of high importance, and I can hardly over-emphasise the hygienic and economic importance of this matter. Prevention is better than cure, and along the lines of preventive medicines our public health efforts may more and more have to be concentrated.

May I take this opportunity of reminding the Committee that my right hon. Friend announced some time ago that he was going to set up a committee to deal with public health services of Scotland, a question which originated in the report of another committee and is obviously one, of great importance. The House of Commons has had before it the terms of reference to the committee, which are: To review the existing health services of Scotland in the light of modern conditions and knowledge, and to make recommendations on any changes in policy and organisation that may be considered necessary for the promotion of efficiency and economy. I am now in a position to announce to the Committee what the personnel of the 962 proposed committee will be. We have been extremely fortunate in getting Sir John Dove-Wilson, a retired Judge, who was chairman of the Natal Supreme Court and more recently chairman of the Persistent Offenders' Committee, to take the chair of the committee. The other members will be:

• Mr. George Bonar, of Dundee.
• Dr. Brownlie, Chief Medical Officer of the Department of Health.
• Mr. Ian Carmichael, a well-known local administrator in Lanarkshire.
• Professor Edward Cathcart, Professor of Physiology in Glasgow University.
• Dr. Robert Craig, of the Scottish section of the British Medical Association.
• Provost David Fisher, of Hawick.
• Professor Alexander Gray, Professor of Economics in Aberdeen University.
• Sir Andrew Grierson, Town Clerk of Edinburgh.
• Dr. John Jardine, of the Scottish Education Department.
• Dr. A. S. M. McGregor, Chief Medical Officer of Glasgow.
• Lady Leslie Mackenzie.
• Mr. W. Marshall, Clerk to the Scottish Association of Insurance Committees.
• Dr. Alexander Miles, a well-known Edinburgh surgeon.
• Bailie Violet Roberton, who is well known in Glasgow.
• Mr. J. M. Vallance, of the Department of Health for Scotland.
• Mrs. Chalmers Watson,

Mr. Joseph Westwood, whom I need not identify because he was well known in this House and, speaking for myself, I much regret his absence.

This Committee has a most important task to perform. I believe that the professional and public opinion of Scotland is looking forward with immense interest to the investigation that will proceed. I think that we may get, from the close investigations of this Committee, recommendations which will be of real and lasting value to the administration of the public health services of Scotland. I have dealt with these large topics— housing, town planning, and public health in its various aspects—and I do not want to go into detail now on the many large questions which are clustered round the question of public assistance. I will not go into the figures, but I will point out to the Committee that those figures are on pages 176 to 179 of the 963 Report. They are heavy and the increases in them have been considerable, but between January, 1933, and April, 1933, there has been an improvement in the unemployment figures in Scotland of 42,700. No doubt the Committee will analyse those figures in various ways, but it cannot be doubted that a certain important proportion of that very considerable figure of 42,700 must result in relieving the burden of the local authorities in regard to poor relief. Without exception of party, the Committee will be gratified to know what those figures show.

§ Mr. NEIL MACLEAN

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has just informed the House of the decrease in the numbers of unemployed in Scotland. Can he now give us the figures of any increase that may have taken place in the numbers of those in receipt of Poor Law relief?

§ Mr. SKELTON

I have already said that I did not want to weary the Committee with the figures. May I just make my speech in my own way? I said that the Committee would like to know that there had been a decrease in the number of unemployed in 1933. I made no attempt to go into details. I venture to say that it is a satisfactory figure, criticise it and whittle it down as you will, that as between January and April there has been that decrease of unemployment. Satisfactory, too, is the announcement made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health this afternoon, that a grant of £500,000 is to be given to the distressed areas for the current financial year. On the ordinary Goschen proportion Scotland will receive a little over £60,000 of that sum, and it will be a most welcome addition to the finances of the local authorities who receive it. I cannot at the moment say what the allocation of that £60,000 will be between the local authorities, but as soon as we know the House of Commons and the local authorities will be informed.

§ Mr. LOGAN

May I ask the Minister whether that sum is absolutely definite? Is there no possibility of any extension? Is it absolutely final?

§ Mr. SKELTON

That is a question for a Cabinet Minister rather than for an 964 Under-Secretary. The House of Commons received that figure this afternoon of £500,000, and all I have to say is that, in the ordinary course of things, Scotland will receive £60,000. We are rather inclined to associate the immense nexus of social services which the Department supervises with the great towns. We feel so much the importance in these areas of better health provisions, pensions, poor relief and so on, but I am inclined to think that the great advance which has been made in these services in the last generation, or generation and a half, has had its widest and most complete effect in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. The Committee is well aware of the special services which are rendered there. Take the normal life of the crofter population—secure to some extent for their food requirements and in their housing and land, but scattered and living in isolated and difficult districts. There you will now find not only a pension coming in in many oases, but also a wide network of hospitals, doctors and nurses spreading all through the Highlands and Islands, where 30 years ago, it is not an exaggeration to say, such services were practically unknown. There are, of course, great improvements in the way of roads and transport. But if we try to assess the values of the development of the public health services which are grouped under the Department of Health, and consider in what part of Scotland those services have had the most profound effect, I would say that it is in those outlying, isolated, lonely and separated places, where there are difficulties from the nature of the geography and the nature of the social structure, that the efforts of at least a generation of parliaments of Scotsmen and Englishmen have had their greatest effect. Much remains to be done. I believe, and I think the Committee believes, most profoundly, that we must rely upon the welfare of the rural districts for the well-spring of national health and strength, and it is of profound importance that these services have been of such special advantage to, and have made such a difference in, the lives of these rural districts.

In my official position I have had the honour to be closely connected with the Scottish Department of Health for nearly two years. The Committee will realise from the report before them how varied 965 and onerous is the work which the Department does. I should not like to conclude without expressing my appreciation of the work of the staff. Their experience, wisdom and unceasing care, for which no trouble has been too great, have made from my point of view such responsibility as our constitution most properly places upon the shoulders of a Minister lighter than it would otherwise be, and I wish at the opening of the Debate, in which there will be many comments and some criticisms, as there must be in all Departmental activities— and I think the Committee would also like me to do so—to express my feeling of deep admiration and respect for the work of those who serve the Department.

§ Mr, DUNCAN GRAHAM

The Under-Secretary in an admirable speech has presented perhaps the best case that could be made for his Department during the past year. Respect for his work and his qualities is a matter of common agreement, and whatever I may have to say in the form of criticism will be from the same motive that animates the Under-Secretary and for the benefit of the country to which we both belong. The report, as usual, is a very well produced document. It is always a pleasure to read the report of the Department. Whether or not we agree with the comments in it is another matter. There are some things in this year's report with which I do not agree, but I am bound to say that each year the Department produce a document which is well worth the study of every Scotsman engaged in public life, whether in Parliament or in other directions.

The Under-Secretary covered a considerable amount of ground in his speech. In the first instance he dealt with the fact that the Department had to dispense with the services of 23 members of the staff. I do not know exactly what the actual work of the Department is, but in view of the fact that it is responsible for the administration of every phase of life in Scotland it seems to me that instead of having fewer members of its staff it ought to have more, especially in view of the statement made by the Under-Secretary as to the great progress made, particularly in housing. I must express my regret that it should have been found necessary, in the interests of what we 966 believe to be largely false economy, to reduce the number of the staff. The Under-Secretary expressed his regret for the necessity of reducing the staff and indicated his sympathy with those who had been displaced. I do not think that he said that they had all found work. If there is any possibility of those who are still idle being restored to their original positions in the Department, I hope that will be done.

The hon. Member dealt very largely with the housing question and, quite properly, claimed a considerable amount of credit for the progress that has been made in the provision of houses. It is not altogether pleasant sailing in that particular matter. I am interested in what appears in Appendix 2 on page 148 under what is described as "Summary of Proceedings" so far as housing is concerned. It is there stated that the total number of houses inspected during the last year was 87,903, in the counties 29,815 and in the burghs 58,088. Of that total the number unfit for human habitation in the counties was 4,973 and in the burghs 9,287. As I read it that means that at least one-sixth of the total houses inspected were admitted by the Department to be unfit for human habitation. I should like to know, and I think the Committee would like to know, the number of houses in Scotland as divided between the counties and the burghs. Perhaps the Under-Secretary will give the information in his reply. We believe, although I do not think it will be acceptable in all parts of the Committee, that the single and two-apartment houses are slums, no matter whether they are in town or in country. If there is not sufficient accommodation to enable the sexes to be separated and for the father and mother of the household to have a room to themselves, we believe on this side of the House that that house ought to be swept out of existence, and we shall not be satisfied with any report from the Department until that position has been secured. A house should contain at least three apartments. I feel sure that every Member of the Committee will agree with that view, as an individual, and I feel certain that no doctor worthy of the name could do other than describe the vast number of these one and two-apartment houses as wholly unfit for human habitation.

967 The Under-Secretary indicated that he was very much alarmed because of the increase in maternal and infantile mortality, and he said that he was not sure of the causes of that increased mortality. There are a number of causes, but the main cause is poverty. There has been an inquiry into mortality in different occupations and I have seen figures, although I have not them in my possession, where eminent medical authorities have stated that the infantile mortality rate was something like one-third in the middle classes of what it is in the ordinary working classes. In the occupation with which I am connected the mortality is as high as 260 per 1,000 in the mining villages compared with only 50 per 1,000 infantile mortality in the middle classes. I know a large number of mining centres in the industrial west of Scotland, and I am sure that while there has been fairly decent progress made, and I am willing to give due credit to the Department for the work they have done, there are large numbers of unsightly and absolutely uninhabitable houses still occupied by members of the mining and other working class communities. The reason why they occupy those houses is not because they have a liking for them but because they have not the means to pay a higher rent.

Some reference has been made to the means test being applied. I am sure that that is not going to get over the housing difficulty. Where you have a considerable number of empty houses, a big proportion will be houses owned by local authorities. A great number of houses owned by local authorities are occupied by tenants who are unable to pay the rents that are being demanded. It is no use for Members of the House or for the Department to slide over the point which the hon. Member for Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) attempted to put. It is a very material point. I am not so sure that even a rent of 6s. is capable of being paid, in view of certain statements in the report of the Board of Health, with which I very strongly disagree, in which attention is drawn to the fact that in some areas too much money is being paid in unemployment relief. In the chapter dealing with the Poor Law, on page 139, there is some criticism with regard to the difficulties of the treatment of the poor in different areas. The sug- 968 gestion of the Department seems to be that some burghs and counties are allowing too much. Some of them are paying too little, and very much less than ought to be paid if any pretence is made by the local authorities of looking after the health and well-being of the people.

I said some months ago that one of the main reasons for the ill-health of our people was poverty, and that is true today. The Under-Secretary of State made some reference to an inquiry that has been held into infant mortality. He said that the increase had been mostly due to variable climatic conditions, and that the further North one went the higher the rate of mortality became. I suppose when you reach the North Pole you will not be able to live at all, and when you get to the Equator there will be no such thing as infant mortality. I hope that that is not a right description of the position, but I suggest that the further North you go, and particularly in the mining districts, the higher becomes the mortality. That is largely because of the poverty of those mining centres, because the people have too little to live upon, and because the housing conditions are not what they ought to be.

It would be impossible for a Member like myself to cover the ground in the same way as the Under-Secretary of State has done, and I am sure there are many Members who want to speak in this Debate. But before raising any new matter, I should like to draw attention to an element in the position which was not very fully explained by the Under-Secretary when he dealt with the question of poor relief or unemployment assistance. He patted himself on the chest and congratulated the Government on the fact that there had been a reduction of something like 43,000 in the number of the unemployed. The figures in the report itself do not give much cause for such a feeling of pleasure. I take from the report the following figures: In Clydebank, in 1931 the number of destitute able-bodied unemployed relieved amounted, taking the persons themselves and their dependants, to 3,600. In 1932, the number was 6,806, an increase of 88 per cent. during the last year. In Dumbarton, there was an increase of 67 per cent. In Port Glasgow, the increase was 80 per cent. In Falkirk, it was 61 per cent., in Glasgow 55 per cent., and in Hamilton 75 per cent. The average of 969 those six burghs is, roughly, 60 per cent. increase in the number of persons for whom the local authority has been held responsible.

That has had this effect: In Clydebank, the rate per pound for the payment of destitute able-bodied unemployed in 1931 was 10.ld., in 1932 it was 1s. 4.5d. In Dumbarton, it has risen from 7.3d. to 1s. 2.9d. In Port Glasgow, it has risen from 9.5d. to 1s. 2.7d. In Glasgow, it has risen from 8.5d. to 1s. 0.4d., and in Hamilton, from 9.6d. to 1s. 5.1d. These burghs, of which I have spoken, with the figures which are to be found in the report, are in the counties of Dumbarton, Renfrew and Lanark. In those counties I do not think there has been any decrease in the number of the unemployed, but, if anything, an increase during the last year. If this were only for the last year it would not be anything about which you need make a very strong case, but when I remind the Committee that so far as Lanark is concerned last year was only one of a continuing series of years since the end of the War. I am putting a case that justifies a very big percentage of the £60,000, if it comes at all, being given to those three counties. According to the report, the destitute able-bodied in 1931 had increased by fully 66 per cent. That is a very serious position so far as Scotland is concerned because, with the possible exception of certain parts of Wales, Scotland has been worse hit than any other part of the United Kingdom. From this side of the Committee we put forward a plea for a much more kindly attitude and for more generous treatment on the part of the Department to the claims made by the local authorities for relief, particularly in those localities to which I have referred.

I have had a communication from the local health insurance committees dealing with the question of the application of the new Act. I had an application from Hamilton Local Medical Panel Committee, which I handed over to the Under-Secretary of State, who is in charge of that particular branch of Scottish administration. I received a reply from the hon. Gentleman which is not at all satisfactory. I think that either the hon. Gentleman or the Secretary of State for Scotland ought to be prepared to raise this matter in the Cabinet, and at least try to get some agreement 970 reached by which medical benefit will be secured to those who are unemployed and who are threatened with the loss of medical benefit at the end of this year. I am sure the Under-Secretary of State himself is not quite so happy as he could wish about his reply. I and some of the other representatives of Lanarkshire in this House had a meeting with the county medical panel committee, which deals with these matters. There were present at that meeting representatives of different districts, and representatives of the doctors. Very strong feelings were expressed in regard to the proposed changes.

It will be generally agreed that if any part of the medical profession has made sacrifices during the last few years, it has been the doctors in the rural areas of the counties of Dumbarton, Renfrew and Lanark. I do not think that any more sacrifices should be asked from that particular section of the medical profession. I hope that the Secretary of State or the Under-Secretary will try to get some arrangement come to by which the position under the present Act will be modified, so as at least to make secure that there shall be medical attendance, and that the State shall pay the cost of that attendance, in the case of men unfortunately unemployed. I sincerely hope that the Under-Secretary of State will be able to give the Committee, which I am sure is as strongly interested in this matter as I am, some assurance that at least in regard to that particular complaint about the medical attendance of the unemployed some modification will be made, which will give satisfaction to the people in charge of this onerous work.

§ Mr. TRAIN

I wish to join with the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) in congratulating the Under-Secretary of State on his clear elucidation of the Scottish Estimates and all their ramifications. The hon. Member for Hamilton began his speech with a complaint, after complimenting the Under-Secretary. His complaint was that the Board of Health was reducing its staff to the extent of some 23 persons. I think, on reflection, that the hon. Member will find he has made a mistake in grousing at those 23 people being dismissed. My great surprise is that there have not been hundreds of people dis- 971 missed by the Scottish Board of Health in these times. We all know that to deal with this great housing problem which, so far as the Scottish Board of Health is concerned, began in 1919, there were great additions to the staff, which had to examine, lay out and advise. Architects and surveyors were brought up from private enterprise, and they mopped up ex-town clerks and made them housing directors. These men have done their work very well and efficiently. But now, after something like 14 years' experience of housing, housing standards are pretty well settled. Plans can now be produced in the form of blue prints. For years architects have sat laboriously over their drawing-boards, and they have produced satisfactory plans which are now adopted all over the country. Therefore, my great surprise is that the staff has not been reduced by much more than 23. It is, however, some satisfaction to know that, as the Under-Secretary has told us, most of these people are finding jobs, and I am glad to know that they are doing so under private enterprise. Now that the Government which we on this side support is giving private enterprise a start in housing, there are lots of jobs that these men can go back to, and thereby relieve the ratepayers and the taxpayers considerably.

I must congratulate the Department of Health on this report. It is something of which I am sure they are proud, and of which we who support the Government are proud. There has not been such a report on the work of the Department for many years. During the two years that the late Government were in office, they produced something like 10,000 or 11,000 houses. Last year something like 16,000 houses were built, showing an increase of 50 per cent. on the number produced by the Labour Government, although hon. Members opposite have been "grousing" at the National Government for not getting on with housing. It is something that the supporters of the Government ought to be proud of.

§ Mr. D. GRAHAM

You have not much more to be proud of.

§ Mr. TRAIN

It is one thing, at all events, and we will make the most of it. While complimenting the Department on this report, there are one or two criticisms that one might make upon it.

972 The first is in regard to the introduction, which, to a plain man like myself, is rather difficult to understand. On the first page of the introduction I find these words: It is now possible…to contemplate a definite reorientation of housing policy. That is a very fine word, and it is very commonly used. I do not know who was responsible for putting it into this report, but someone told me the other day that the meaning of this word "reorientation" was going East instead of West. If it means building no more houses in Glasgow and building more in Edinburgh, I do not agree with it. Further on in the report we find that it is the policy that is being altered in regard to housing, and I think one may say, on reflection, that it is time that the policy in regard to housing was altered. I see that in 1919, when the local authorities were asked to make a return of the number of houses required in Scotland to meet the deficit, they said that it was 131,000. From the report we find that there have been built since that period something like 160,000 houses, so that we have overtaken all the shortage in housing that was reported by the local authorities in 1919. The report, however, goes on to say, and rightly, that a number of houses go out of use every year; they become uninhabitable by the efflux of time, through decay. That number is put at something like 6,000. If we go on building at the rate that we did in 1932, namely, something like 16,000 houses a year, in two years we shall have overtaken all the shortage of houses reported by the local 'authorities, and shall have made up the number which go out of use by the ordinary process of decay after a life of, say, 100 years. That is the justification for this reorientation of policy. We have overcome the shortage, or, at least, we are within sight of doing so.

§ Mr. KIRKW00D

I have no desire to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he might tell us—

§ Mr. TRAIN

The hon. Member will have his chance later. There have been grave complaints from many, including the hon. Member for Hamilton, about the means test being part of the new policy of this Government in regard to housing. I would ask the hon. Member and his colleagues: Who introduced the means test in housing? Since I came into the House, one or two Housing Acts have 973 been passed, and I would direct the hon. Member's attention to one of them, which contains a formula with regard to the occupants of houses under that Act, which was passed by the Labour Government. It depends on the number in the family and so on, and upon the ability of the tenant to pay. Is not that a means test? I am not "grousing" about it; I rather admire it; I admire the pluck of the Government that brought it in, and I think it is right; but we find from this report that some of these three-apartment houses are let to people according to their ability to pay at rents of £4 per annum, because they cannot afford to pay more.

§ Mr. D. GRAHAM

Are there any houses of that type in Lanark?

§ Mr. TRAIN

I am not referring to Lanark or Glasgow, or anywhere in particular; I am referring to the Fourth Annual Report of the Department of Health for Scotland, in which this statement will be found that there are houses let at £4 per annum. It is on page 18: The rent charged, for example, for a three-apartment house varies from as low as £4 to as high as £20 10s.

§ Mr. D. GRAHAM

That may be so in the North of Scotland, but not in the West.

§ Mr. TRAIN

It does not matter where it is; it is a statement by the Department in their report, and they are responsible for it. That is the effect of the means test, that these people are getting houses at £4 per annum. I am not grumbling at it. I think it is right. If they cannot afford to pay the rent, they should nevertheless be properly housed in the interests of public health. But, when we come to the other side of the case, we find that since 1919 houses have been built at prices varying £l,000 down to £300. There were the Addison houses, the Chamberlain houses, the Wheatley houses, and the houses built under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act and all the various other Acts, and they are let at various rents according to what is agreed upon by the local houses. Now that we seem to have overcome the shortage of houses, I am all for the means test. I am with the Labour Government who introduced the means test in housing, giving people houses at £4 if they cannot pay more; but I would ask the man who can pay an economic rent to 974 do so, or, if he does not, to get out and leave the house to the man who cannot pay an economic rent. I give the Labour Government credit for bringing in the means test for housing, but I want to see it applied, not only to the man who cannot pay, but to the man who can pay. It is no use saying that it is an inquisition to ask a man to state his annual income or his weekly income if he wants to get one of these subsidised houses, because he is asking people who are perhaps worse housed than he is to pay part of his rent. Therefore, although this word "reorientation" may be a long one, if it means applying a decent means test to the man who can pay as well as to the man who cannot, I agree with it, and I do not see why my hon. Friends on the other side-should grumble, seeing that they were; the instigators of it.

I noticed that there were various points in the Under-Secretary's speech which the hon. Gentleman opposite did not pursue, and I will leave it at that, because I think they were very good points. With regard to the position of rural housing I am very dissatisfied, and have a "grouse" against the Government. I find, on looking at the report, that only £500 was spent under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act in 1932. I had the honour of being appointed by the late Labour Government to the Committee that allocated these houses. Altogether we allocated something like 600 houses, of which about 100 were in the constituency of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair). I wonder what they have been doing since then? They have only spent about £100. We were giving grants of £15, £20 and £25 a year, and yet all that has been spent this year on rural houses is £500, according to the report It may be that the rural people are taking the view that the rural areas are becoming depopulated, and according to the report that is true. Within the last 10 years the population of the landward portions has decreased by something like 90,000. On the other hand, in the burghal areas the population has increased by something like 50,000. Therefore, we have a shortage all over the country of something like 40,000 in 10 years. That, of course, makes one careful. On the other hand, we find in the statistics that within the last 100 years the density of the population occupying houses has been reduced by 2.5 per cent.

975 In 1822 it was something like 6.5 To-day it is about 4. Therefore, we need more houses for the people because there are not so many people occuping houses.

This should please hon. Members opposite, who have a great complaint against room and kitchen houses. There is nothing finer in Scotland for a newly married couple, or for an old couple without family, than a good comfortable room and kitchen house provided you can give them all the latest sanitary requirements. There, again, there is a great problem in connection with public health. We have been increasing the sanitary accommodation of houses from year to year, especially in the last 15 years since these various Housing Acts came in. What has the result been? We have had difficulties in rural areas for want of water supply. We have had difficulties because of the want of an outfall for sewage. Streams have been polluted. People are drawing water from wells. In order to promote better housing and better sanitation, it might be worth while to consider scrapping some of these artificial boundaries and dividing Scotland more according to the water shed and to the water supply that can be obtained. In my view you will never have complete and efficient housing of the people until we get to that stage.

The Under-Secretary referred to town planning. My mind goes back to a little over a year ago when the right hon. Baronet the Member for Caithness was Secretary of State for Scotland. I said that Glasgow was completely town planned under the 1925 Act. The right hon. Baronet said I was misinformed. I am pleased to see from this report that Glasgow has been all town planned. There is not a square yard of ground that is not town planned under the 1925 Act. I see that Aberdeen is on a par with Glasgow. I trust it will be an example for many boroughs and counties to get on with town planning. Another point that was mentioned by the Under-Secretary is that of necessitous areas. There is no one in the House who does not feel very deeply the plight of these distressed areas. Unemployment has been rampant since 1921 and it is up to the Government to do something to relieve them. One is glad to know that there is some 976 prospect of this being done and the burden being spread. I congratulate the Under-Secretary and I wish the Government every success.

§ Major Sir ARCHIBALD SINCLAIR

I should like to associate myself with the tribute that has been paid to the Under-Secretary for his masterly review of the Estimates of his Department. I should like also to associate myself with the tribute that he paid to his officials. Anyone who has had any connection with the Department must feel genuine admiration for the work that that loyal and devoted band of servants do for the people of Scotland. I am sure there is in the whole range of the Departments of State no more efficient and no happier Department than that over which the Under-Secretary presides with so much ability and courtesy to his fellow Members. I welcome the inquiry that has been set up into the health services. The terms of reference mention the word "economy" which if it means, as I hope it does, the extraction of the greatest amount of benefit from a given expenditure is to be applauded. In so far as it means greater efficiency and concentration of available resources and intelligence upon the problems of public health, it is to be welcomed. The very able report of the Department of Health shows clearly that there is a need for some such inquiry.

The Under-Secretary referred to the unsatisfactory and mysterious figures of maternal mortality. I should like to know what efforts are being made to get local authorities to improve their services. There is a reference in the report to proposals that are being submitted for the improvement of maternity services by local authorities, and the Committee would be interested if we could be given some idea of their scope and whether they are now being put into operation. We are very glad to hear that the inquiry of the Scientific Advisory Council into the conditions that tend to maternal mortality, and the relative importance of the various causative factors, is being continued and pressed forward, but I should like to ask why, in view of the seriousness of the problem, there is actually in the Estimates a reduction from £3,200 to £2,700 in the grant for the training of midwives and health visitors.

977 The figures of infant mortality also give cause for grave concern. The theory that it is connected in some way with climate is a very interesting one. Is this theory borne out by the known factors? The Under-Secretary gave us figures to illustrate it in England. Is it borne out by experience in other countries? Is it true in Scotland that, the further North you go, the greater the infant mortality? If the theory of the hon. Member who spoke for the Labour party is right, it would be the other way round. He thinks the reason why there is a higher rate of infant mortality in the North of England than in the South is because there is greater poverty and distress there. If that theory is correct, you would expect to find a higher rate of infant mortality in the South and West of Scotland than in the North, and it would be interesting if we could be given the figures for Scotland to compare with those for England and also, if possible, at some other time the figures for other countries in regard to infant mortality. I myself believe that in estimating the relative importance of the various causative factors of infant and maternal mortality and also, perhaps, in regard to resistance to infectious diseases, that diet will be found to be another factor of the greatest importance.

The Under-Secretary mentioned the veterinary service and the clinical inspection of cows in byres. I was glad to hear him pay a tribute to the local authorities which have the three inspections a year. It is a service of the utmost value, and it gives greater confidence in the milk supply from those localities than from others. The local authorities are, indeed, to be commended for their enterprise. At the same time, this question of cleaning up the milk supplies of the country is one of even wider and greater significance. There is no finer food for the people, and above all for the children, of the country than milk. The great experiments which were conducted on a large scale on 10,000 children in Lanarkshire alone by the Empire Marketing Board and certain Research Departments will be fresh in the memory of many hon. Members. They showed clearly that the physique and vitality of the children who received the ration of milk improved. You cannot really measure the intelli- 978 gence as between two groups of children, one fed on milk and the other on other foods, because intelligence may vary inside the group. What was clearly proved was that the physique of the children fed on milk improved and there was a great deal of evidence to show that their vitality improved. Many of the teachers who had these children under their charge said that those who were fed on milk were more difficult to control and showed greater liveliness than the others.

Therefore, it seems to me that an increase in the consumption of milk would be one of the best means of improving the diet of the people and of dealing with many of the other questions to which I have referred. To do that you must go to the root by such means as are now being successfully employed on a large group of farms in Ayrshire and eradicate tuberculosis. I hope that measures of that kind which would give an opportunity of immensely improving the physique of the nation and of strengthening its resistance to disease, and, at the same time, be of great benefit to agriculture, will seriously be considered by the Government. The West of Scotland College of Agriculture has estimated that if the people of this country drank only a quarter of a pint more milk per day we should require 100,000 more cows and 10,000 more people to look after them. If we drank as much as Sweden it is doubtful if there would be sufficient land in Scotland to carry the cows which would be required.

I wish to refer to the remarks which the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland made about the great benefit which had been derived from the Scottish Health Services by the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. We in the Highlands and Islands fully appreciate them. We are grateful to successive Governments which have developed the services which the Department of Health so ably administers. I do not hesitate to say that it is a good investment by the State in the Highlands of Scotland, and that it is one to which they, like every other part of Scotland, are entitled. These are great national services and should be available to men and women in the most remote and impoverished districts. This House has not only shown generosity but wisdom in making this investment in the High- 979 lands, and it has paid the nation well to give these services.

The Under-Secretary [...]lerred to the fact that the figures of unemployment had declined during the past five months in Scotland by 42,000, but it is very pertinent, though he rather waived aside the objection of the hon. Gentleman opposite, to consider whether it is a real reduction and how far it is affected by men being taken off the registers and put on to Poor Law relief. It would be interesting if the Under-Secretary, or whoever replies, can say how many men during the same period have gone on to Poor Law relief. What is the net total of the reduction in Scottish unemployment. I also wish to refer to the statement of the Under-Secretary, following upon the announcement made by the Minister of Health at Question time, that we in Scotland are to get £60,000 to aid the distressed areas. I am not clear, and I hope that the Secretary of State may be able to make it clear when he replies, that this amount will be sufficient to carry out the pledge which the Government gave to the House of Commons some three or four weeks ago, that the able-bodied unemployed would become a national charge. Can he give a clear undertaking and guarantee? I hope that he will be able to say that the sume of money available for Scotland will enable all the able-bodied unemployed there to cease to be a charge upon the local rates, and become a national charge.

I was glad to hear from the Under-Secretary, and in fact we read it in the report, about the progress being made in that most fundamental of all aspects of housing—the question of town and regional planning. The Act of last year only came into operation on the 1st April, and perhaps the Under-Secretary will tell us if, in fact, schemes are actively in course of preparation, and whether he has any progress to report upon the operation of the Act. I cannot say that I listened altogether with satisfaction to the account which the Under-Secretary of State gave of the progress which is now being made in housing. It is quite true that the results up to now are such as must be satisfactory to every Member of this Committee, but it is not clear whether or not the departure which has been made so recently in policy will have the results 980 which the Government held out to us when the Housing Bill was under discussion a few weeks ago.

The Under-Secretary of State informs us that 14 building corporations have been formed. I think that really the only hope of getting very much advantage from the plan of operating through the building societies would be by means of a housing board or housing corporation to unify and co-ordinate the efforts of building societies, building contractors and local authorities all through Scotland. The so-called 14 building corporations are, I suppose, building contracting firms coming together and combining for the purpose of taking on building contracts. We are told that they will probably construct 4,000 houses in the coming year, many of which will not be built with the aid of the State guarantee under the new Act. If they are not built by the aid of that guarantee, I suppose that there will not be any guarantee whatever for the maintenance of the housing standards which we put into that Measure, and upon which the Department of Health can only insist provided that the building corporation ask to have the advantage of the guarantee.

The local authorities, it is true, have some control, and I hope that the Under-Secretary of State may be able to tell us that he will use his influence with the local authorities to see, even where the guarantee is not asked, that the housing standards are maintained. It also reawakens the fear that these building societies and building corporations will tend to build, not where the need is greatest, or for the poorer classes of the population, or in the most distressed areas, but rather to go to the more prosperous areas and the better parts and build where they can get higher rents. The fact that municipal competition has been removed from the arena will help them in that. Therefore, I should like the Under-Secretary or the Secretary of State for Scotland, to give some indication of what the hon. Gentleman means when he says that a considerable number of these houses will not be built under the guarantee. Does it mean that the houses will not be built, as I am inclined to fear, where we are hoping that they will be built, and does it mean that there will be no real guarantee for the maintenance of the housing standards of the. people?

981 In the circular which was recently issued by the Department of Health the suggestion was made that local authorities should hold conferences with the building societies and corporations. Are such conferences now being held, and is progress being made on those lines, and, if so, can the Under-Secretary tell us what has been arranged about rents? Can he tell us whether any schemes have got to the stage at which it is possible to say at what rents the houses which are to be built by the building societies and building corporations will be let? With regard to the housing of the lower-paid wage-earners with the aid of the £3 subsidy, the Under-Secretary tells us that there are something like 100 houses being erected, and that there are some 600 applications for the subsidy. It is very difficult to tell from that what progress is being made, and we shall probably have to wait a few months before we are able to tell. I cannot help thinking that it is useless to point out to the local authorities, as they do in paragraph 20 of the circular of the Department of Health, that the value of the £3 subsidy is even greater than was the £9 subsidy in 1924. For the £9 subsidy in 1924 did not produce the houses at the rents required for the lower-paid workers. We want to be assured that the £3 subsidy will produce houses at the rent laid down in the Act of Parliament of 6s. a week.

The vital question is the cost of the houses. We were glad to hear the assurance of the Under-Secretary of State that the cost still continues to fall, although I saw in the newspapers a day or two ago an ominous reference to the fact that at the conclusion of this Debate the Secretary of State for Scotland was to leave for Glasgow in order to meet the makers of bricks and to discuss the recent rise in the price of bricks. Still, we are all the more grateful for the assurance of the Under-Secretary that the cost has fallen, and is still falling, though the figure he mentioned of £285 as builders' costs alone is a little higher than some of the figures he mentioned in the course of our Debates on the Housing Bill.

With regard to rural houses, the Under-Secretary tells us that in 15 months 3,50.0 new cottages have been approved for reconditioning, and that almost 4,000 improvements have been completed. Is it clear that increasing numbers of houses 982 are being brought forward for reconditioning? The many figures which I received in the Debates on the Housing Bill and in answer to questions which I put in this House indicated clearly that the tendency on the part of county councils was to contract their obligations under the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, and that fewer houses, as the months passed, were being reconditioned,. The figures which the Under-Secretary quoted do not make it clear which way we are moving, and that is really the important point upon which the Committee will need to be satisfied. But more important still, he said nothing about the 8,690 insanitary houses which need to be replaced. He spoke only of the houses which should be reconditioned, but, according to the figures given in reply to a recent question there are 8,690 insanitary houses which need to be replaced, and, if he is going to reply to the Debate, I hope he will tell us what progress is being made in regard to this matter. In their circular the Department say that the immediate need, as regards rural houses, is not so much the provision of new houses as the improvement and reconditioning of existing houses, but there is a need for 8,690 houses to replace insanitary houses which have been condemned in county areas.

As regards the small burghs, I hope that he will tell us what is being done to help them. Their problem is extraordinarily difficult. In any of these small burghs you will find a number of houses condemned as unfit for habitation but the people, being house proud, although living in a house of poor fabric in wretched surroundings, endeavour to keep them as spick and span as possible. In many of these small burghs the cost of a house is not £280 but £380 and the rates are high. In one of them, particularly that of which I am thinking, they are 7s. 3d. in the £, and the yield of a penny rate is only £68. I hope the Under-Secretary will assure us that the difficulties of these small burghs are being very carefully considered.

But the question is, what is the main plan of campaign of the Government under the new powers they have obtained under the present Housing Act? When it was introduced we were told that its main purpose was to concentrate upon slum clearance; and it was unique among all Bills ever discussed in this 983 House that there was not one word in it about its main purpose. After all, it was no new departure in policy. The policy of the Government, when originally formed in 1931, and the policy put before the conference of local authorities which I addressed as Secretary of State in January of last year, was to concentrate upon slum clearance houses to relieve overcrowding. It is a policy which has yielded the 30,000 houses of which the Under-Secretary has spoken, 4,000 more than the greatest number ever recorded as being built in Scotland, and it was a policy which has yielded the 10,000 houses which have been approved, or were under construction' for slum clearance alone, at the beginning of January.

If this new policy is to be justified, it cannot be by showing that a similar number of houses are being built this year as last year, or by showing that a similar, or slightly greater, number of slum clearance houses are to be built in the coming year as compared with last year. We are entitled to see a very much greater number of slum clearance houses built as a result of the concentration of resources upon the slum clearance problem. The hon. Member for Cathcart (Mr. Train) tried to persuade the Committee that the problem of housing was practically solved in Scotland, and that in another two years it would be done. I gave figures, which I will not repeat, on the recent housing Bill showing that if we maintained the rate of building 16,000 houses a year, which we had last year, we should solve the problem in six years. If you take the figures in the report of the Department you will find that the shortage of houses at the end of last year was 53,000. If you take their further figure of 6,100 houses, which are required to meet the needs of the population under the various heads which are explained in the report and to replace the wastage of houses, you will find that in five years it makes a total of 30,500.

That means that during the next five years there will be required to be built, to overtake the shortage and keep abreast of current needs, 83,000 houses. If that calculation, based on the figures given in the report, is correct, you would get in five years, at 16,000 houses a year, 80,000 houses, or within 3,000 of solving the housing problem of Scotland. Therefore, when I asked the Government, as 984 I did on the Second Reading of the Bill, to announce a five years' plan of operations for solving the housing problem, I was not making any exaggerated demand. It is not true to say that it can be solved in two years, but we can solve it in five years by a determined effort. My idea of a five years plan has been adopted by the English Minister of Health but not by the Scottish Department. It is not for me to discuss the announcement made by the Minister of Health that they are going to solve the problem in England in five years. I think it is quite out of the question, and I would never have suggested it as regards England and Wales, but I think that in Scotland we certainly could solve it in five years; and I am sorry to say that we seem to be lagging behind a little.

The Secretary of State made a speech the other day which was more remarkable for the satisfaction he expressed in regard to past achievements than for any clear indication of his plans for the future. Let me make my own position clear. I realise that it is a matter of Cabinet policy, but could not they persuade the Government to make this great effort now on the basis of cheap money? If they would tackle the housing problem in Scotland with a view to solving it in five years, they would have this Committee, the House of Commons and all local authorities in Scotland behind them. It would be in accordance with the policy declared by the Prime Minister in his conversations with Mr. Roosevelt, using the cheap money we have now to finance public works. It would provide us with permanent assets, which would raise the standards of life of the nation, and give an impetus to the industrial revival of Scotland which is so much needed at this moment. I hope that the last word of the Secretary of State has not been said in this somewhat jejune and belated circular issued during the last few weeks, but that we shall have a call to action in which he will be supported by men and women of all parties in this House and in local authorities in Scotland.

§ Mr. McGOVERN

I beg to move, to reduce the Vote by £100.

In connection with the health problems which have arisen in Scotland among a large section of the people I desire to 985 call the attention of the Committee to the disgraceful conduct of the Secretary of State in refusing to meet a deputation of the people who desired to place before him a large number of anomalies which have resulted from the Government's economy scheme. I want to say at the outset that the Secretary of State was made aware six weeks ago of what is termed the hunger-march of unemployed men and women from various parts of Scotland, who were prepared to come before him with a number of demands and draw his attention to a number of anomalies arising in connection with health problems. I know that I am not at liberty to detail the schemes of work which were going to be proposed, but we desired the attention of the Secretary of State in order to place before him these anomalies. I am in a happier position that these unfortunate men and women, because I can come to the House of Commons and place before them these anomalies and injustices and ask for certain adjustments and modifications, and also that the administration should be more humane in many respects. When the Secretary of State was made aware that a body of men and women were asking to meet him in Edinburgh, the capital of Scotland, in order to place before him these problems, I think in all decency he might have been prepared to meet them and hear their complaints.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne)

I think I must warn the hon. Member that the salary of the Secretary of State for Scotland is not now before the Committee, but, so far as he has any complaint to make against the right hon. Gentleman in the matter of housing or any other administration under the Department of Health, he is in order.

§ Sir A. SINCLAIR

Will the hon. Member explain what this deputation was, and whom it represented?

§ Mr. McGOVERN

I am aware that the salary of the Secretary of State is not involved in this Vote, and we hope that before the evening is over an opportunity will be given, by a Division on his salary, to show our dissent from his conduct in connection with the administration of Poor Law relief, housing, child welfare and health services generally. I want to place before the Committee the case which, as one of the deputation, I placed 986 before the Department of Health in Edinburgh. I do not seek to take advantage of this opportunity to do anything more than present what I believe to be legitimate demands. I have said that the Secretary of State was made aware that a number of these problems would be discussed, and that men and women from all parts of Scotland were coming to Edinburgh to place before him their legitimate demands.

The Government recently passed a series of measures imposing economies which involve grave hardship on a large body of men, women and children in this country. A man who invents a new engine or a new machine is generally interested in its working, and has reports from day to day as to its effects, and the same thing ought to apply to the drastic economy measures passed by the Government. The members of the Government ought to be available to hear at first hand the evidence of the effects of their economies upon the health and well-being of the people. I suggest that Members of this Committee are not in a position to give the Government, at first hand,. details of the effects of these economies. Such information can only come directly from the men and women who are compelled to exist under these economy measures.

In this case the Secretary of State for Scotland might have been more tactful, more humane and more intelligent. Even from the representative or constitutional point of view, he ought to be available in Edinburgh to meet representative deputations of Scottish people who are prepared to place such evidence before him. But the curt note which was sent to the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) in connection with this matter bordered on the insulting in its character. It was a brief, curt refusal, and the right hon. Gentleman also knew that I was one of the deputation which proposed to meet him. A few weeks ago I was invited by the senior Member for the Scottish Universities (Mr. Buchan) to join him in a drawing-room at Edinburgh. No doubt, on that occasion my company would have been acceptable to the authorities of Edinburgh and the Scottish Office. When you associate with those who are in a drawing-room, it is all right, but when you associate with those who are in the gutter, you become an outlaw and an outcast, treated with contempt and ridicule 987 by all responsible secti