UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (EXPIRING ENACTMENTS) BILL.

§ Mr. DAGGAR

I was pleased to hear the Minister confess that the genuinely-seeking-work condition was one which he did not want to see revived. That is a well-deserved compliment to the members of the Labour party, who are entitled to the credit for having destroyed that condition. He told us that he also intends to modify the Regulations dealing with seasonal workers and married women. That also will be appreciated by Members on these benches, if such a modification will bring back on to the register many people who ought not to have been struck off, and in the attainment of that desirable object I sincerely hope the right hon. Gentleman will be more amenable to the suggestions of the Advisory Committee. We were also informed by the right hon. Gentleman that the efficacy of the Anomalies Act had been justified. I should like to know whether the Financial Secretary to the Treasury shares that view. I ask that question in view of the pleasing homily delivered to Members on this side by the Minister of Labour when he dealt with alleged inconsistency on our part. He might have invited the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to be present in order to share the pleasure that we derived from that little homily.

384 Circumstances have changed considerably since the Anomalies Act and the other Acts now to be prolonged were placed on the Statute Book, and in this connection it is my intention to make one or two quotations from the speeches of the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, to whom I have already referred. Although he is not present, I am sure he will be pleased to know that his past, when he occupied an entirely different bench from the one he now adorns, is being recalled. On that occasion he quoted from speeches delivered by our people as far back as 1924, and, to the credit of the Minister of Labour, he was so hard pressed in criticising the Anomalies Bill which was then under discussion that he entertained himself, if not the House, by quoting from speeches delivered by the Prime Minister, who was a reliable politician at that time, namely, in 1913. I do not intend to unearth the past of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to that extent. I am content to refer to his speeches in 1931, in order to determine, at least in my own mind, whether the sermon delivered on consistency could not have been preached with more appropriateness to the Gentleman whose name is attached to this Bill.

He stated on the 8th July, 1931, that the then Minister justified the introduction of the Measure in view of the fact that there was an anticipated deficit on the Budget of something like £100,000,000. That is not the position to-day, and whatever justification there might have been for the introduction of the Measure in 1931, that justification, in our opinion, and especially with regard to the Regulations, does not now exist. Furthermore, if the Minister so desired, he could have told the House that at the time of introducing the Anomalies Bill powers were being sought to borrow no less than £25,000,000, making a total amount for which the party then in power were responsible for borrowing in order to pay unemployment insurance benefit of something approaching £115,000,000. We were subjected on that occasion to the brilliant observations of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), who referred to a number of the unemployed as "cadgers on the dole." The right hon. Gentleman's party, as far back as the 8th December, 1930, on the 385 Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill then under discussion, moved this Motion; This House declines to proceed with the Bill until the Government has declared its policy regarding the admitted abuses now causing a continuing waste of the insurance funds."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th December, 1930; col. 67, Vol. 246.] The right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), on whom we can always rely for making at least an interesting contribution to our discussion, if not an informative one, said that the Government then in office was a Government of the dole drawers, by the dole drawers, for the dole drawers. In addition, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour, quite accurately, stated that this party was responsible for setting up the Royal Commission on Unemployment. The step was taken in view of the criticism to which I have already referred and largely because of the financial condition of the fund at the time, but that is no defence for the Minister. He is under no obligation as regards the recommendations of that Commission, neither is he compelled to accept the advice of the Advisory Committee or to defend what we consider to be the iniquitous Regulations for which he is responsible. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury also stated: I do not think it is fair on the unemployed"— That is referring to the Bill., Seeing the names attached to this Bill, which prolongs the life of that obnoxious Measure, does he think it is fair now? He went on: although I think there are germs of common sense in the Bill. If it were to contain powers to remove all anomalies, the anomalies that tell against the unemployed, I think there would be some sense in the Bill. In the opinion of the hon. Gentleman there was no sense in the Bill, because, he said: the people who are being penalised under the Bill are the people who have paid the contributions, and, if the insurance scheme were upon an insurance basis, no one would question their right or call them anomalies or any other convenient epithet. Here is another brilliant observation from the hon. Gentleman; I should be glad to know if he is going to take part in the Debate. He says: There would be justification for taking even tyrannical powers to deal with the question, not of unemployment insurance 386 but of unemployment. Right hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House are a little slow about dealing with unemployment. They have not done anything for the un-employed, so now they are proceeding to take it out of the unemployed, and I do not think it is quite fair."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th July, 1931; cols. 2207–8, Vol. 254.] Obviously to-day, as he occupies a different bench, he thinks it is fair, but he might have been on that occasion honourable enough to state in the House that the Measures for which our people were responsible, namely, destroying the not-genuinely-seeking-work condition and increasing benefit placed an increase on the insurance fund of something like £14,500,000. If he can give us some guarantee that he is prepared to do as much for the unemployed as was done on that occasion by our people, when they were without power but simply had office, for which he at the time was probably angling, we shall be the first to congratulate him and the Government. The National Government, however, have not only reduced benefits and the period for which benefits are payable, but they have increased contributions and have imposed the means test, for which there is no defence. According to their own statements, they have—I suppose that this word is not appreciated in this House․deliberately deprived the unemployed of £29,500,000 in 12 months.

Like many others, I exercise some caution in using statistics in this House in view of the difficulty with which we are all confronted of determining which of the figures supplied by the Ministry of Labour are reliable, especially when they are used with further additions by Members of this Assembly. I am wondering whether the Parliamentary Secretary can assist me. On Wednesday of this week he said that the net savings from the operation of the needs test was £20,500,000 for the period from the 12th November, 1931, to the 6th May, 1933. On the 11th April this year the Minister stated in reply to a question that £29,500,000 bad been saved by the means test and cuts ill benefits, another item being thus drawn in to make it that amount. On Wednesday, when the Bill was introduced, my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Lawson), who moved the Amendment, said that the Government had deprived the unemployed of £55,000,000 in two years. Relying upon the figures supplied by the Minister, 387 ought not that figure to be £59,000,000 in two years?

I was pleased that the Minister on Wednesday again emphasised the obvious when for the second time on behalf of the Government he accepted complete responsibility for the imposition of the means test. That is of interest to us in view of the statements made in the country that the Labour party was responsible for the means test. There appear to be some misgivings, if not doubts, in the minds of many Members, including the Minister of Health, who has stated that the children of the unemployed have not unduly suffered from the cuts in unemployment insurance benefit. I want to give one or two instances. I shall not give them from my own division, which is considered by the officials to be a depressed area, but I shall give them from other parts of Great Britain, namely, Yorkshire, Glamorgan and Aberavon. Before doing so, I should like to call attention to a statement that has been made in a highly respectable journal, namely, "The Lancet." It is stated on the authority of four experts to whom none of us would willingly ascribe political consciousness. "The Lancet" states that what they call the "physiological minimum" subsistence diet per week for a man would cost 4s. 10d. to 6s. 8d., the average of the four figures being 5s. 8d. The Ministry of Health has also issued a report on diets in Poor Law children's homes, in which the figure is given as 4s. 6½d. per child per week as the minimum necessary for food to ensure adequate nutrition—and this in institutions where supplies are bought at wholesale prices. If we accept these figures, and assume a family of two adults and four children, they ought to spend from 28s. to 29s. per week on food alone. Such a family, if the father is unemployed and receiving full benefit, has £1 11s. 3d. If they spent on food what is necessary in the opinion of "The Lancet" to provide the physiological minimum of subsistence, there would be 2s. 3d. per week available for rent, fuel, light, insurance, clothes and boots for six people. No one can say that 28s. or 29s. is available for the purchase of food.

These are the three cases to which I want to refer. They are not to be found in a Tory newspaper, but in a paper the 388 reliability of which will not be questioned, namely, "The Labour Woman," for April, 1933. I have admitted that the cases do not appear in a Conservative journal, but I should be amazed if the Parliamentary Secretary has the courage to dispute the figures. They have been obtained as a result of the Labour Women's Advisory Council sending out to different areas for particulars as to the amount of money that is available for food for families. The first case is from Yorkshire: Family of father, mother and three children of 11, 5 and 2. Total income, £l 9s. 3d. transitional payment. Bent, 8s. 7d.; coal and gas, 3s. 6d.; clothing club, insurance, cleaning materials, 3s. 6d.; food 13s. 8d., of which 2s. is for milk. The average amount per person for food is 2s. 8½d. The next is a case from Glamorgan: Family of father, mother and five children. Total income, £1 11s. 3d. unemployment benefit. After paying 10s. 2d. for rent per week, 3s. for coal and light, 5s. 6d. for clothes, insurance and cleaning materials, 11s. 7d. is left for food, which 'includes bread 6s., margarine 1s., milk 10½d., and no meat, fish, eggs or butter. The average amount per person for food does not exceed 1s. 8d., which is considerably less than the amount laid down in the report to which I have referred. The last case is that of a father and mother, with three children aged six years, three years, and six months. The total income from transitional payment is £l 9s. 3d. The rent is 8s., gas and coal cost 2s. 9d., clothing club 1s., food, 17s. 6d. There is 2s. 3d. for milk and 3s. 3d. for eggs and butter. The average amount of food per person is 3s. 6d. And yet we are told by a responsible Minister that there is no privation among the children of the unemployed.

I will give an instance supplied by one who was at one time a Member of this House, and whose integrity and character can be vouched for by even those who do not share his political views, namely, Dr. Somerville Hastings. In January and February of this year he, with other doctors, made an examination of 53 school children belonging to 21 families of the unemployed in a western district of London. They selected these cases because younger children in the same families had been shown to be ill-nourished. He and the other doctors reported: 389 We found that 31 of the children were below the average weight of children of the same age in the London elementary schools, and that 33 of them showed definite signs of under-nourishment. While I have quoted cases in which the rent was only 10s. 2d. a week, the doctors here refer to rents of not less than 17s. for a single room in those areas. I leave right hon. Gentlemen to decide whether, in their opinion, there is suffering amongst members of the unemployed. I am sure there are Members of this House who could multiply these cases by hundreds of thousands. There must be considerable suffering and privation amongst the children of the unemployed, despite the statements to which I have already referred, and despite the type of unreliable observation made by a lady who is in a position to know better, namely, the wife of Mr. Montagu Norman, who has said that London school-children are not suffering unduly from unemployment. Even where children are not suffering to the extent which we might legitimately expect, that can be explained to a large extent by the fact that in the depressed areas fathers and mothers are making considerable sacrifices in order to maintain a decent standard of existence for their children. It has been pointed out, not by a Member on these benches, and not by a Member of this party, but by no less an authority than the medical officer of the Penypont Rural District Council that: In some cases the children looked under-nourished and certainly there were a number where the fathers and mothers had Buffered by giving the children a big share of the food supply. There is no Member in this House who cannot agree with the statements to which I have already referred, and yet we know that in this country there are innumerable persons in receipt of allowances, for pleasure and clothes only, considerably in excess of £20 or £50 a week. In conclusion I want to submit that there is no more justification for the application of a means test to an unemployed man than there is for its application to a man who is employed. An employed man is employed not because he has any additional virtues to an unemployed man, and an unemployed man is not unemployed because of any fault of his own.

§ Mr. H0LF0RD KNIGHT

Do I understand that the hon. Member puts for- 390 ward the view that on an application for public assistance there should be no inquiry into the circumstances of the case?

§ Mr. DAGGAR

That has been admitted from these benches on more than one occasion, and I still hold the opinion that if an unemployed man is rendered idle through no fault of his own there is no justification for the application of a means test, because the means test implies that if there is a son or daughter in the house they have to keep the father or the brother who is unemployed. I maintain, for what it is worth, that the responsibility for the adequate maintenance of an unemployed? man is one that society itself ought to bear, in view of the fact that the worker has no control over the means by which he is provided with employment. For these reasons and many others I shall support the Amendment which has been moved.

§ Lord EUSTACE PERCY

Unfortunately, I was prevented from being present at the previous day's Debate on the Bill, but I have read the Debate, and I think I am right in saying that the great majority of the speeches referred less to the Bill before us than to the past Bills the memory of which it revives, and to the Bill which we are expecting towards the end of this year. The speech of the hon. Member for Abertillery (Mr. Daggar) rather continued that tradition of debate. The whole of the first part of his speech seemed to have little to do with the Bill, but a great deal to do with the past of himself and of hon. Members on this side of the House. I do not know that it is very much good, when we are dealing with a problem of this kind, to try to poke up our heads above the ruins of our own pasts and explain the reasons for our past actions. I sometimes think that on occasions like this hon. Gentlemen opposite might be well advised to remember Lot's wife. There are moments when those benches opposite, seem to be rows of pillars of salt, merely embittering the atmosphere and doing no good at all.

In the very few words I have to say I wish to look not at the past but at the future. In introducing this Bill the Minister gave a sketch, a very brief one, but 391 all, I suppose, that we could expect, of some of the principles on which he proposes to base a great definitive Measure to deal with unemployment insurance. He gave that explanation, I think, in order to emphasise the complexity of the problem and the reason why to-day we are considering merely a makeshift Bill. I do not complain of the postponement of the Government's definitive Measure, as some of my hon. Friends have been inclined to do, because I think they have been very wise not to rush in with a final Measure at this moment. It is obvious that the remedy or the means of dealing with the problem of unemployment must depend entirely on the probable nature of the employment and the conditions of employment of the great mass of our people in the future. Those who believe that the conditions of employment or the nature of employment for the great mass of our people are going to be the same in the future as in the past are being shown, with increasing force, to be on very unsafe grounds.

This is an unemployment insurance scheme directed to dealing with that complex system of highly specialised labour and mass production which grew up in the nineteenth century, and there are many signs to-day that the whole of that system of specialised labour is crumbling, and that we may have to look forward to a very different system in the future from that to which we have been accustomed in the past. Even the principles upon which His Majesty's Government have apparently decided to base their future Measure seem to me to be very unsafe. There is a universal chorus of approval for the principle that, as a National Government, we shall be responsible for the whole of the able-bodied unemployed. That rests upon assumptions as to the future yield of national taxation as compared with local taxation which are very bold assumptions, and nothing more. The whole of the insurance system at the present moment is based mainly upon two forms of taxation, the taxation of incomes and a direct taxation upon employment in the shape of an insurance contribution—a direct taxation which has been responsible for more unemployment in 392 the last few years than many of us realise.

To face confidently and boldly a permanent system, under which employment insurance and the relief of the able-bodied unemployed shall continue to be based upon a failing and declining Income Tax and upon that direct tax upon employment which shall less and less be based upon any form of local taxation, is a scheme which will have to be very closely and carefully examined when it is introduced towards the end of this year, lest we should be found to have established once again a so-called permanent unemployment insurance system which will be out of date in 12 months. I do not complain of the delay, or that this is a makeshift Bill, or that almost the whole of the work of this Session has been makeshift work, though some of the authors of which have not been willing to admit it to be makeshift work. I see that the Minister of Health has just left the Chamber. His stern and positive insistence on the continuance for the next three years of the same block grant as has prevailed for the last three years is already being shown to be a makeshift, subject to immediate alteration—but that is not a subject which I must pursue. It is obvious that, in this period leading up to the World Economic Conference, when we are hugging to our bosoms the hope of a rise in commodity prices, and of restarting something like prosperity on a scale at any rate equal to that of 1929, so long as we are waiting for the international arrangements which we hope, against hope, may bring that about, we have to content ourselves with makeshift measures; but at the end of this year, and from that time onwards, will come a period when we can no longer content ourselves with makeshift measures. We shall have to decide what kind of new world we are entering upon, and the nature of the permanent reconstruction which we shall have to undertake if we are to meet the conditions of that new world—for a new world it will be.

In that connection, I want to urge upon the Government one thing which was mentioned by the Minister in his speech and the importance of which far transcends any other aspect of this question. The hon. Member for Abertillery spoke of the evidence of mal-nourishment among 393 children. I do not question evidence of that kind. I have had a good deal of experience of investigating the state of nourishment of children in the schools in depressed areas. There are two statements that one can make with absolute certainty. One is that the general standard of nourishment and of physical well-being of the school children in the depressed areas has been maintained in the most marvellous and unhoped-for way; the other statement—in spite of that, and granted that—is that of course there is intense hardship in individual cases. There is mal-nourishment in individual cases. There is terrible mal-nourishment among the parents of those children, and it is largely for that reason that the physical standard of the children has been maintained. This question of nourishment, important as it is, is perhaps not the most important thing. All experience proves that a decline in family means may, so far as the welfare of the children is concerned, be more than compensated for by the better selection of diets as a result of school meals, and so on. That was proved during the War by the Belgium Relief Commission under Mr. Hoover's administration. Never had the physical standard of Belgian children been so good as under the carefully selected diets of the relief centres of Belgium, in spite of the fact that the families were reduced practically to starvation. Experience has shown that that problem is comparatively easy of solution, where the proper measures are taken in all respects.

There is one problem the solution of which is far more difficult, and that is the problem of an apparently permanent and growing unemployment among juveniles. That is not only a threat to the future well-being of the nation, but it creates an appalling mass of individual physical and moral misery which it is impossible to exaggerate. That is the real tragedy of the depressed areas—not the under-nourishment of the schools, but the human material going to waste day by day, week by week; new generations of that material coming out of the schools and going to waste again year after year, age-group after age-group and generation after generation. What are you going to do about that? What are the Government going to do about it? That can only be solved in connection 394 with a scheme for the relief of unemployment: It cannot be solved within the educational system.

§ Mr. MAXTON

Why?

§ Lord E. PERCY

It cannot be solved merely by raising the school-leaving age; it cannot be properly dealt with by any continuation school system which is universally compulsory, but which allows of the exemption of schools. It cannot be dealt with by such a system within the educational system because—and this is the fundamental answer to the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton)—we do not know what the future of those children is going to be. We know that their conditions of employment are, in all probability, going to be radically different from those of their fathers, and any educational or school system which 1s part of a general school system always tends to a certain rigidity. It always tends to be based upon the standards of the past, and not upon the standards of the future. You may have a technical school system which trains boys very well for the sort of industrial occupation which their fathers were engaged in, but it is far more difficult, within any regular educational system, to set up that variety of training establishments and to give that variety of training methods which are necessary in order that the present problem of unemployment may be dealt with. If you try to deal with unemployment within the school system, you will do little more than simply make your schools a waiting-room for another year or two, and, when those boys and girls come out of the schools, they will be just as unready to enter employment, and it will be just as difficult to find employment for them, as when they left school a year or two before.

§ Mr. MAXTON

Why cannot it be possible for these unemployed boys to continue in the ordinary secondary school or grammar school, as the Noble Lord's son and my son will continue, until they are about 18, if they can manage it?

§ Lord E. PERCY

But look at the unemployment that is caused by grammar school education at the present moment. I do not think there is anything more pathetic—the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) shakes his head—

§ Mr. COVE

You are confusing the effect with the cause.

§ Lord E. PERCY

I am not saying whether it is an effect or whether it is a cause; I am noting a fact, namely, that, of all the forms of unemployment at the present moment, the most pathetic is the growing unemployment, the terrible unemployment, among girls and boys who come out of the secondary schools at 16, among the fewer who come out at 18, and the fewer still who come out of the university at 21.

§ Mr. COVE

Unemployment is not caused by the university or the secondary school.

§ Lord E. PERCY

Of course it is not caused by the secondary school. I am only saying that the secondary school or the university is no remedy for it, and we are looking for a remedy. The university or secondary school is not a cause of unemployment, except in so far as it does to some extent, as we all know, produce misfits, because you do bring unsuitable people into the secondary schools, whether they be dukes or dustmen. We all know that some dukes would be much better in a factory at 14, and some dustmen would be much better in a secondary school. Whatever the social class may be, you do produce misfits. I am not saying that school education is the cause of unemployment; I am saying that it is a hopelessly ineffective remedy to deal with the kind of unemployment with which we are faced at the present moment. I hope that at any rate my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton is not going to dispute this, that, whatever we may think of the capacity of a school system to reduce the present appalling juvenile unemployment, an enormous part in dealing with unemployment among juveniles must be played by the junior instruction centres and similar arrangements of the Ministry of Labour. If there is any doubt about that, let me give one final reason. The one thing that you cannot do in a school system is to deal with the in-and-out child—the child who gets employment at 15, falls out of employment at 15¾or 16, and is still looking for work. You cannot put that boy into a secondary school, even if you could arrange a method of sticking him in at 16, and then suddenly allow him to leave in three or 396 four months' time. It is the in-and-out boy, who gets a short period of blind-alley employment, and not merely the permanently unemployed, who is the danger to himself and the community at the present moment. I did not want to refer to this matter until my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton challenged me.

I do not want to criticise the school system, for which I have been responsible for many years, and I think my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon knows how interested in it and how keen on it I am still at the present moment. I still say that, as part of the remedy for the unemployment problem—I merely mention it; it would not be in order to go into it—you might bring into force, as I have suggested before, the raising of the school leaving age by one term during each of the three years 1935, 1936 and 1937, so as to "iron out" that "bulge" of juveniles who will be thrown on to the labour market during those three years. That is an auxiliary measure which I would certainly advocate, but, for the real practical and strategic dealing with this appalling juvenile unemployment problem, I do say that the junior instruction centres of the Ministry of Labour represent the greatest and most immediate hope at the present moment. What is necessary, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton (Mr. Macmillan) in the Debate on Wednesday, is to get rid in the first place of the present gap between the school leaving age and the age of entering insurance, and I hope that His Majesty's Government will not be deterred from introducing a measure of that kind by any recollections of what may have been said in the past by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, by myself, or by any hon. Member opposite, about lowering the insurance age. We have got to close that gap, because, otherwise, our whole scheme will go by the board, and I hope that the Government will not be deterred by any fear, either of what any of us in this House may say or of what any section of educational opinion may say outside. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon will agree that all are now so impressed by the danger of that gap that they would be willing to have it closed by any means rather than see it continue.

That is the first measure. The other must be a great development of these 397 junior instruction centres, with much more variety in them, and much more experimentation in more positive training, and especially, I believe, in training for the land. I will not weary the House by going further into that question, but I would make an appeal to the Government. Some months ago we had in this House a speech, which impressed the whole House, on the appalling nature of the housing problem. That is one of the scandals of our civilisation. This is the other, and, if there is one duty that rests upon this House, it is to see that, whatever happens to adult unemployment, at least the juvenile who is perforcedly unemployed shall be cared for and trained, and his deterioration prevented, by the best devised measures which we can put into operation.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

I hope the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) will not think I am discourteous if I do not follow his line of argument. To-day we are discussing a Measure which seeks to prolong two Measures, namely, the Act passed in the time of the Labour Government, and also previous Unemployment Insurance Acts. The Minister was careful to point out that the present Bill does not continue the cuts in benefit or the means test, but that those were done by Order in Council, and, therefore, are not affected by the Bill. That is true, but one also knows that, if the Bill were not passed, the whole of unemployment insurance, including the cuts, the means test, and everything else, would be thrown into the melting pot and would have to be faced anew. Consequently, while what the Minister said was technically true, one cannot escape the fact that the whole question is bound up together. I hope I shall not be accused of being too critical of my colleagues in this House, or of any section of them. I would repeat what I said when I spoke last on the Ministry of Labour Vote, namely, that I have not too much room to criticise others, because I am open to too much criticism myself.

As I came down to-day and saw the beautiful day outside, I thought of this House in the past being packed almost to suffocation. I thought of every section of the House crowding in to hear how a co-operative tax was to be levied. I 398 thought of it literally full when the American Debt Settlement was discussed. To-day we are discussing the future well-being of millions of decent working people, the only subject discussed in Britain among the great mass of the common people, and the House is almost empty. Worse than that, it is cynical and feeling almost bored. It was packed to hear about the co-operative tax and the American Debt and it would be packed if we were discussing some scandal concerning an individual Member. It may be that we have discussed unemployment insurance until the subject is threadbare. It may be that there is nothing new to be said, and it may be that the ordinary Member of Parliament, like everyone else, craves for change. There is no change here. There is nothing to excite him, so he misses the Debate and lets it pass. We are discussing something more than unemployment insurance. A million heads of homes have been out of work, some of them for five or six years and, with any improvement that you can picture, they will be out of work for another three or four years. What we are discussing to-day is not what we discussed when this scheme was devised. We are not discussing a method of giving to a man something to tide him over from the period of unemployment to the period of work. We are discussing the permanent income, the livelihood, the wage, of millions of unemployed men.

The Minister on Wednesday said that, if we defeated the Bill, we were cancelling out all the arrangements that had been made to keep the unemployed. That is a common Parliamentary device and a common argument. I cannot understand the attitude of the Labour party in this. We discussed recently a Rent Bill packed full of injustices, and they would not divide against it because it contained one good portion among fifty bad. The Labour people called us fools, and almost knaves, for dividing against it. If their position was good on housing, it must be good on unemployment insurance. The Bill contains one small good thing but most of it is bad. The answer to the Minister is simple. It is the duty of those who are opposed to a Measure to seek to reject it. The rejection of a Bill means that the House of Commons is dissatisfied with it. It is a direct instruction to the Government that the Measure 399 is inadequate and that the matter must be dealt with anew and at once. The Bill does two things. It continues the Anomalies Act and it continues all the unemployment insurance legisation, including cuts and including the need test. I was one of a very small group, numbering 14, who opposed the Anomalies Act, and we suffered personal abuse and obnoxious terms in the Debate. It is necessary to rake up the past for two reasons. I do not know if I am differently constituted from the majority of politicians but I often feel this. Politics used to have a charm for me but it has none now. When you get men coming to the House of Commons professing ideals and aspirations and then find them doing the very opposite of everything that they have advocated, one must feel that there is nothing sincere about it, that it is a dreadful unreality.

One must examine these things to see how far sincerity plays any part in them. To-day we are discussing the continuation of the Anomalies Act. I listened to the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) the other night, and one would almost have thought from his speech that the Anomalies Act was passed in order to put people in benefit. He cursed the Government for not passing a certain regulation, and said that if the present regulation had been passed in another way people would have been put in benefit in some other way. The hon. Member for Ince (Mr. G. Macdonald) stated that he went into the Lobby all night in support of the Anomalies Act and would still do so. There is that much to be said for him, but when hon. Members come down, as did the hon. Member for Govan, and make the most contemptible excuses, one wonders what life is coming to.

What are the facts? Let us face them. The facts are that the Labour party did this for the first time in the history of Unemployment Insurance. Everybody on standard benefit had their insurance policy determined by Act of Parliament until they passed the Act. One must remember that this is an Insurance Scheme and that men take out a policy. When a man takes out a policy for insurance he is entitled to know the conditions of the policy. But the Labour party deliberately and brutally took the policies of people who had the insurance 400 qualification outside the Act and left them to be determined by people over whom Parliament had no control. What is the use of hon. Members on the benches above the Gangway saying that they had not made some regulation or other. They did it, and they wanted it to be done. They voted for it. They were here, and they packed the Committee. There is something low down about it when they come down now and blame the men whom they appointed to do the job. When a certain person is appointed to do a job and is afterwards blamed by the people who appointed him for having done the job there is something about it which is dirty and mean, and only mean men could argue it. Down comes the hon. Member for Govan. He blames the people whom his Government appointed to do the job. The truth of the matter is that they either wanted the Anomalies Act to cut people off benefit or they did not. If they did not want to cut people off benefit it was no use passing the Act.

In my view—and I say this emphatically—although the means test is bad in that it affects far more people, the Anomalies Act is worse in that it robs people and gives them nothing for their payments. That is one of the contemptible effects of the Anomalies Act. There are four classes affected by it—short-time workers, married women, intermittent workers, known as the fellows who work two days a week, and seasonal workers. The first class, the short-time worker, is not really touched. It is true that in any system you find all sorts of misfits cropping up. Who in this House does not know of the anomalies of Income Tax or Death Duties. In any human system you can find people in whose interest a case may be made out. When the Anomalies Act was being passed they trotted out certain individual cases. A Cabinet Minister told us that he was in favour of it because he knew the wife of a dentist who was getting benefit. We were told about somebody else getting £8 a week and that this sort of thing would have to be stopped. One hon. Member told us that he knew of cases among coalheavers. By such means one can defend any provision of a reactionary Measure introduced into this House. The fact is—and it is to this matter I wish to call attention, because I think that it is perhaps the most criminal thing under the 401 Anomalies Act—that people working three days a week are not affected by it although the Act meant that they should be. The Act provides that before a man can be disqualified in respect of three days, he has to receive for the three days he works more than he would get normally for six days. A man normally earning £5 or £8 a week, would, if he worked three days a week, need to exceed his £5 or £8 before he could be disqualified in respect of the other three days. Therefore, the £5 or £8 a week man, with whom the Act was brought in to deal, remains. Why?

§ Miss RATHBONE

Thanks to you.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

Not merely thanks to me. There is a much greater reason, as I will show in a minute. Take the seasonal workers. I received a letter from a girl at Bonnyrigg in Midlothian. She said that she had been employed for many years with the Turkey Red Company, and that four years ago the company shut down, and, like many others, she had been unemployed since. Her companion the first year she was out of work obtained employment at a Rothesay boarding house and since then had worked each summer. Last summer she had completed her third summer, and on applying for insurance benefit was refused benefit although she had her stamps because she was a seasonal worker. This girl tells me that this is her first summer and says that if she takes work she will, at the end of the summer, be refused benefit. She states that the other girls who have remained unemployed the whole of the time still continue to receive benefit, while she and her chum are disqualified because they are seasonal workers, and took work. She asked me whether she should take the job: "If I take it," she said, "I am refused benefit. If I do not take it, I shall get benefit." It used to be said, "not genuinely seeking work"; now it is "genuinely seek work," and the Labour party will rob you of your benefit. Why should you punish people because they are seasonal workers?

There is another contemptible thing about it. Everybody knows that a house painter's work is seasonal. My father was a building trade worker. Every winter he walked the streets unemployed. He worked nine months a year without the loss of a day, and as regular as 402 clockwork he was three months out. Seasonal, of course, but such a man is not refused. Almost every trade is seasonal, but they are not touched. There are the domestic servants. Why are they touched, and why are not the painters and others touched? Because they belong to the unions which give the shillings to the Labour movement. You could not touch them—you were afraid. There was as much justice in touching them as the servant girl. You left them alone, but a contemptible attack is made on decent women with nothing but their virtue. How is a seasonal worker to live if he or she does not get benefit? From the people, from the parish, from anywhere. If it were justifiable, because she was merely a seasonal worker, to say that she was to get no income, then there was every justification for saying others were not to get benefit.

The treatment of the seasonal worker under the Anomalies Act, leaving aside married women, is a shocking disgrace to British public life. I do not know if other Members feel like I do, but since I started taking an interest in this question, it seems to me almost criminal that these women should be faced with the position in which they are. I went down to a court of referees about 40 or 50 miles from here, a place dependent on seasonal workers. Everyone had stamps. The Labour party may give 10 different excuses for the Anomalies Act. One is that the Liberals forced it upon them. They did not say that when the Act was being passed through the House. Another excuse is that if they had not done it, they would not have got the money. Another is that the Act is a good Act, but that it is administered badly. Who administers the Act? The courts of referees—the same courts that were appointed by the Government. As a matter of fact, the umpire has made the Act much more lenient than when it was passed. Let them go about attacking people like the umpire when he, in effect, has made the Act better. One girl had 74 stamps in two years. It is not far off two years' work, when one takes holidays and so on into account. She was refused benefit. If she had had 75 stamps, she would have got benefit. Take the two-day worker, such as a public house waiter. He is earning, it may be, 15s. in a public house on Friday and Saturday. He does not get benefit 403 for the other four days. If the same man got his employer to employ him for three days for the 15s., then he would get three days' unemployment benefit. In other words, work a day for nothing, and you will be rewarded with three days' unemployment benefit.

As to the married women, I only Want to say that the great bulk of them do not work because they are fond of work. They are no more fond of work than other people. No one is very fond of work. You have only to look at the House of Commons. We work because the work determines the amount of livelihood we get. We interest ourselves in other things, but none of us is unduly fond of work. Married women are no exception to that rule. They work because it is a means of adding to their income to make life more tolerable for them and their families. You take women off benefit because they are married. A woman after she is married must have 15 stamps, eight in the first 13 weeks. In times like these, when work is almost impossible to get, it is practically excommunicating every married woman from benefit.

I want to say this other word on the means test itself. To-day everybody in this House admits that the means test is not a very happy affair; indeed, nobody here would be sorry if it were abolished entirely. The only defence for the means test is that the nation at the moment is not in the comfortable position that it formerly was. In other words, as the. Noble Lord puts it, taxation has reached such a height that it is causing great unemployment, and that therefore the means test must be imposed, because the nation now cannot afford to do what it did before. That is the case of the average intelligent Tory. He does not defend the means test in the sense that it does not bring hardships. He knows that it does bring hardships. He does not defend it in the sense that it does not do wrong. He knows that it does wrong. He says that the nation is not in a position to-day to be able to afford what it formerly afforded. There may be a case for that point of view, but I see no evidence of poverty in this country in the sense that there is no wealth. One has only to look to-day or any day to see wealth all around us. I often think that certain sections of the community are 404 becoming richer. The means test is playing havoc in regard to the malnutrition of the people, and it is affecting their morale. In regard to unemployment, as such, I have never accepted the view that it is undermining the morale of the people in the sense expressed by certain hon. Members.

§ Lord E. PERCY

Not even the juveniles?

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

No. I mix with the unemployed people as much as anybody. When the House of Commons is not sitting I go to Employment Exchanges every day. I live close to the biggest Employment Exchange in Scotland, and I do not take that view. I have seen people who have been unemployed years, and providing they can get a decent income their morale and decency has been maintained right throughout. No section of the community, given a decent income, can keep their morale better than the unemployed. The thing that I have against the means test is that it is driving the unemployed into being mean and into being liars, and once they start that it becomes a habit. What do we find to-day? What about the unemployed man who knows that his boy is coming off standard benefit? What happens? Out of the house he goes, into another home. They look for every subterranean method of overcoming the means test. If they are cute they will overcome it, but if they are simple they will not. The means test is shocking in its cruel effect, because it punishes in the most rigid and cruel fashion the best type of people you have in your population.

Every aspect of the means test has been argued. I agree with my Labour colleagues in saying that the means test is anti-social and wrong. It is said that when a man has run through his insurance benefit the income of himself and his family ought to be examined. Let me put a few questions to those who adopt that line of argument. If a son is at home and he earns £3 a week, you say that the father should be assessed on that income. What guarantee have you that the son gives him that income? What guarantee have you that the son gives him £l a week? You enforce the law on the father, but the son can go to the house whenever he likes and you leave the father in a shocking position so far as livelihood is concerned. Let me 405 say a few words about children's allowances. One hon. Member made an eloquent plea this morning on behalf of the children. Two shillings per week is the child's allowance. That was the allowance under the Labour Government. I moved to make it 3s., but the Labour party voted us down. Before I could get back into the Labour party I should have to sign a document saying that if the party asked me to vote for a 2s. allowance again I should have to do it. The Labour party agreed to 2s. a week for a child and I was castigated for voting for 3s. It is a bit thick to-day for them to complain about the 2s. allowance. One begins to wonder where beliefs really are. The Labour party say: "You must vote for these things if we want you to vote for them." What does the ordinary man in the street think about politics? He says, "Does it matter a damn who I vote for?"

This Measure represents social tragedy to millions of people. The big predominating question to-day is the upkeep of the unemployed, not the American Debt and not even work schemes. Unemployed folk say to me, "Geordie, what about the means test? Is there any chance of it being abolished or modified? What about the scales of benefit?" This Bill represents a carryover period. The big Bill is to be discussed between now and the New Year. I have no wish to hurry the Government, because I know that their new Bill, whatever it is, will be worse even than this. They have never improved anything yet. The record of the present Prime Minister as Prime Minister shows that. Take his record in the Labour Government. The Labour Government started by giving one or two shillings to the unemployed. That was the first period. Then there was a second period of doing nothing. Then there was a third period, when they openly started to attack the unemployed. Each period became worse than the last. They appointed a Royal Commission. They did not need to appoint a Royal Commission. What is the use of appointing a Royal Commission if you do not pay attention to it. I pleaded with the Labour Government that if they had a Royal Commission they ought to put Arthur Hayday on it, because he knew more about this problem in his boots than they knew about it in the whole of their bodies.

§ Mr. CAPORN

He made promises but never fulfilled them.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

He knew all about the problem. No man knew more than he. The Government would not do that; they appointed a Commission. That is the record of the Prime Minister in the Labour Government and it is his record in the present Government. I do not say that the Government should hurry things, because the next thing they do will be as bad, if not worse. This Bill represents a terrible social tragedy. I should be happier if I could see anything as an alternative to the present Government. The unemployed are falling more and more into an abyss of despair. They have no faith in politicians, and the only thing I can see in this Bill is destruction, almost death, to many thousands of people. The only comfort is that these apathetic millions may yet rise in their power and sweep out of office and power those who are doing this dastardly thing, but I hope that when they get the power they will not be as callous and as cruel as those who have now the power.

§ Mr. CROSSLEY

The Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) raised the Debate from politics to high statesmanship and the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) has not lowered the standard. He once did me the great personal kindness of telling me how to address this House. He said "fix your eyes on somebody and try and get him interested, and then the rest of the House may stop and listen." I am going to fix my eyes upon him. I agree with much that he has said, but I cannot think that there are many Members of the House—I am not sure that even he believes it—who believe that a man should be granted State money, State charity, State maintenance if you like, irrespective of his means after he has gone out of insurance. I would also remind him of that insurance, that a man drawing benefit has only contributed one-third to the fund out of which his insurance is paid. I only propose to speak for a few minutes on one specific point, and then to make one general observation.

The point I want to raise concerns the last sentence in the speech of the Minister of Labour when he said: For the general policy of the system of assistance to unemployed industrial 407 workers, the Minister of Labour will be responsible, on behalf of the Government, to the House."—(OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th June, 1933; col. 185, Vol. 279.] So far as it goes I, with other Members of the House, welcome that statement. The Act which was passed by the Labour Government, Miss Bondfield's Act, undoubtedly gave the unemployed more money per week and satisfied many in that way; but at the same time it insulted a great many of the unemployed by putting the scrounger upon the same footing as the genuine unemployed man who wanted work. If I were to criticise the means test legislation, I should say that the greatest mistake which was made has been the psychological mistake of appearing to put the genuine unemployed man on the same level as the scrounger. It is not intended to do so, the money is paid not by a local authority but by the State, but, nevertheless, the words "public assistance committee" has grown up to mean so much in the lives of our industrial population, so much that is a social degradation to them, and rightly so. From the start money paid in relief by public assistance committees should have been called not transitional payments but unemployment relief, to distinguish it from Poor Law relief.

As a corollary to that surely these words—I may be under a complete misapprehension—at the end of the speech of the Minister of Labour do not mean that there is not going to be a Poor Law remaining to fulfil the old functions which the Poor Law used to fulfil before the present depression cast upon it a burden which it was completely incapable of bearing? I hope that the old Poor Law, purged of the industrial population, will remain to fulfil its old functions which it has fulfilled so well since the time of Queen Elizabeth, functions which every unemployed man who wants work will support. No unemployed man who wants work sympathises with the man who does not want work. If the Minister of Health wants a formula—the Department seems to love formulas and it also loves jargon, which extends even to the titles of their Bills. The Ministry of Labour is not frightened of using the English language, perhaps because they have among their permanent officials a well-known poet—if the Minister wants a formula which avoids the awful jargon which proceeds 408 from his Ministry, I would suggest that the unemployable unemployed man who wants to be employed should be looked after by the Ministry of Labour and the other people should be looked after by the Poor Law, which should remain as formerly "the residuary legatee of all forms of want."

The other point upon which I desire to say a word is that of juvenile unemployment, and I want to appeal to the Minister of Labour to make compulsory and general what they have begun to do in a voluntary and rather diffident but, nevertheless, experimentally useful way. Germany at the moment is a much abused country, but in its labour legislation it is in many respects miles ahead of this country; and whether or not the unemployed like it—I think they do as all churches in Germany have supported the Government—it is an immense social advantage to Germany to send her young unemployed away into different parts of the country, in camps, for general education, with a due measure of games, entertainments, and lectures, with a due provision for training for the variety of jobs which they may have to undertake when they get work again. It should be done at once, and so help to remove what I may call the dreadful blank wall attitude of the unemployed, the staring at advertisements, trooping up to the market place to hear the local communist preacher, or to see the strong man disentangling himself from ropes; that is the life of the unemployed man, that is the horror of this psychological degradation.

For that reason I would like to see the Ministry of Labour act at once, and send all juvenile unemployed who have been unemployed more than six months—those between the ages of 18 and 25—into labour camps, give them a personal allowance, not pay them anything beyond that necessarily, feed them well, give them amusement and games, and send them back fit. When I was a boy I was sent into the Officers Training Corps of my public school. I hated it like poison, but probably I am to-day the better for it. The unemployed boy would be better for the training that I have described, not military training of course. I ask the Government to act in this piece of social legislation which they have in their minds for the future—to act with the same vigour and enthusiasm as they are 409 acting in trade legislation which aims at the greater employment of our people.

§ Mr. R. T. EVANS

I too am anxious that the House should not be detained unduly, and I am anxious that my contribution to the Debate should in no way degrade the level which has been attained hitherto. The contribution of the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) focussed our attention on the really crucial point of the situation. The House, it is true, is discussing a continuation of provisions which are now operating, but in view of the imminence of the formation of some new scheme for dealing with unemployment insurance, I fee} that it is well worth our while to concentrate attention upon the new facts which have emerged. The whole of our economic outlook has been changed by the developments of the last few years. There is no doubt that in an industrial and sociological sense a new world has been born. But politicians and statesmen have not yet adapted their thinking to the conditions of this new world.

I am not going to deal with the vexed question of the means test; that ground has been traversed very fully. But I would like to call the attention of the Minister to the effect upon home life of the operation of the principle of a family income. Cases have come within my own personal observation of complete disintegration of home life. I am not going to give the House details of which I am aware, but I know of families that have been disintegrated. Young men have been encouraged to leave home, encouraged to get married, though many of them never had any entitlement to stamps, and many of them have done practically no work since they left school. Hundreds of families are now being brought up in South Wales where the parent has never earned a halfpenny. I am not blaming or censuring these young men, but it cannot be a good thing for any community that conditions of that kind should be allowed to develop.

The other point that I want to stress has been stressed more than once to-day. That is the question of the Ministry of Labour undertaking something really big in the matter of juvenile unemployment. There is no doubt that the big increase in births in the years immediately follow- 410 ing the War has resulted in a bulge which will be shown in the school-leaving population from now to 1937. All the prospects are that juvenile unemployment will increase. I rather agree with the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings that that is a problem which cannot be brought completely within the scope of our educational system. Nor indeed should it be left entirely to the Ministry of Labour. Here we are on ground on which the educational scheme and the schemes of the Ministry of Labour are co-terminous, and the need is for co-operation. The raising of the school-leaving age will not ultimately solve the problem, and the mere provision of marking-time occupations in juvenile centres will do nothing. We want to bring the kind of atmosphere that we have in educational institutions into association with the technical bias which might be expected in the Ministry of Labour scheme. We must somehow or other co-ordinate these two elements, and do something to prevent the inevitable degradation of spirit of these young men and women.

We have been told this morning about the changing conditions. I want to concentrate upon the facts relating to South Wales. There you have a situation which epitomises the forces that are operating on a large scale throughout Britain. South Wales as a distressed area has certain peculiar features. The situation is one which merits very special attention, because the industries which have sustained the economic life of South Wales are industries which, it seems to me, are peculiarly in the position of having very little prospect of rehabilitation. A few weeks ago I put questions to various Ministers, and their answers conveyed this information: that in the five years 1928 to 1932 inclusive there was paid out in respect of the various benefits, unemployment benefit, transitional benefit and so on, through the Employment Exchanges of the Welsh Division, no less than £35,634,000. In that time there was received from employers and employed only £6,000,000 odd. That would seem to indicate the position in South Wales. All this is apart from the mountainous sums which have been paid out in respect of public assistance year after year. In the case of the Glamorgan public assistance area between £13,000 411 and £14,000 a week is paid out; in Monmouth well over £4,000 a week, leaving out county boroughs like Cardiff and Merthyr and Swansea. You have there a situation which is becoming worse, and I cannot see any gleam of hope for many of these industries, from the point of view of providing employment.

Take iron and steel. There has been mooted a scheme for the reorganisation of the iron and steel industry. I am not going to discuss its merits. It may not be implemented in the form in which it has been put forward, but in any case it means the concentration of employment in a few efficient works, it means a definite closing down of practically all the inland iron and steel works. It may take the from of a pooling arrangement, as in the tinplate industry, but there again it is simply going to mean the casualisation of a large volume of labour. Take the coal industry. Can anyone who views the matter in an objective way feel confident about the future? There has been a very considerable increase in employment recently, but that has been in a specialised part of that trade, namely, the anthracite area. That might well be jeopardised by the decision of yesterday with regard to the stabilisation of a new parity between the dollar and the pound. A depreciated pound has enabled us to establish a grip on the Canadian market, but that may be jeopardised by a new valuation of the dollar in relation to sterling, which will restore the advantages of the Pennsylvanian producers of anthracite.

One feels that the industrial prospects of an area like South Wales warrant the Government giving it special attention and I suppose such is also the case with other distressed areas. Something like 250,000 people have left the South Wales area in the last 10 or 11 years. What would have happened in regard to public assistance, and in regard to the progressive intellectual and moral degradation of that area had these people not found outlets elsewhere, I do not know. There we find a permanent unemployment problem and it is not enough, in face of such a situation, merely to discuss the injustices wrought by the operation of the means test. I agree with all that has been said this morning about the importance of raising the allowance for children. I agree with many of the criticisms which 412 have been made but I feel that the problem is a bigger one than those criticisms would indicate. It is not enough merely to talk about incomes and about injustices. We have to envisage a future in which the real need will be to provide new avenues of employment.

Obviously, it would be out of place this morning to go into that aspect of the question in detail and I merely mention it in relation to one matter which was referred to by the Minister in his introductory speech. That is the extension of unemployment insurance to agricultural workers. I feel that agriculture provides one of the possible fields for the absorption of this great mass of the permanently unemployed. In view of the schemes put forward by the Government the outlook for agriculture is such that we ought to consider seriously giving the agricultural worker a new status. That question calls for consideration in view of the possibilities of rural development in the future. It has been discussed by a variety of committees and commissions and, as far back as 1926, the inter-departmental committee of which Sir Henry Rew was Chairman—

§ The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton)

I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not read more into my speech than I said.

§ Mr. SPEAKER

I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not pursue the subject in this Debate.

§ Mr. EVANS

Without going into the matter further I content myself with making the appeal that we should consider giving the agricultural worker a new status in the matter of insurance in view of the possibility of absorbing the permanently unemployed in agriculture. I also stress the importance of dealing with the problem of juvenile unemployment and of linking up with the provision of benefit, schemes for the absorption of those unemployed who are likely to remain permanently so, so as to prevent that degradation and demoralisation which otherwise seem inevitable.

§ Mr. COVE

This has been an interesting Debate and two of the speeches have been particularly interesting to me—those of the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) and the Noble Lord the 413 Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy). I am sorry that the hon. Member for Gorbals is not in his place as I wished to ask him some questions and to make one or two comments upon his speech. Everybody knows how interested he is in the unemployment problem and how much work he has done in relation to the unemployed, but I am begining to think I never hear more passionate cynicism in this House than that which is delivered by the hon. Member for Gorbals when he speaks on this subject. He has no faith in anybody or anything and least of all in the Labour party. I do not know whether this indignant preacher, filled with divine righteousness, delivers his sermons here with the expectation of converting us or not, but if he has no intention of converting us I cannot but characterise his speeches as sheer futility as far as this House is concerned. I am glad to see that the hon. Member is now in his place. I notice also that when he deals with the Labour party he indulges in nothing but denunciation, but when he comes to deal with the Tory party, one finds a note of apology running through his speeches. He was particularly apologetic to-day as far as the Conservative party were concerned.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

Why did you rob the servant girls of their benefit? Why did you "pinch" their benefit after taking their shillings and their votes I Can you defend that?

§ Mr. COVE

The hon. Member for Gorbals is again cynically indignant. This is more of his characteristic cynicism.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

You stayed away; you funked it.

§ Mr. COVE

Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to proceed. Everybody is aware of my record except the hon. Member. This morning he has used such words as "low," "mean," "contemptible" about the Labour party.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

Hear, hear!

§ Mr. COVE

But when the hon. Member came to deal with the Tory party he found that there was justification in their case, even for the means test. The hon. Member saw reasons why the Conservative party should support the imposition of the means test.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

No, I said this—that once the Labour party had robbed the servant girl and left her with nothing then the Conservative party had justification for the means test but only then. When the Labour party had robbed the servant girl the next step was obvious and that was obviously the course for them to follow.

§ Mr. COVE

So the wickedness of the Labour party justified, if you like, the wickedness of the Tory party. But I want to ask the hon. Member who is so keen about the unemployed, where do the unemployed come in all this? If what the Labour party has done is wrong, surely what the Conservative party has done is equally wrong, and I am waiting to hear the hon. Member denounce the Conservative party with a fervour equal to that with which he has denounced the Labour party. The hon. Member cannot get away from his words this morning. He said that the average intelligent Tory—note the words—did not defend the means test. It was the "mean," "contemptible" Labour party, the immoral Labour party, in the hon. Member's denunciation, but it was the "average intelligent" Tory. He went on to say that they—the average intelligent Tories—could put forward arguments to justify the means test.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

I did not say that.

§ Mr. COVE

Oh yes, the hon. Member did. I do not want to put it higher than this. The hon. Member said that the intelligent Tory could put up an argument for the imposition of the means test and that argument was the general state of the national finances. Apparently, that is not the sort of argument that can be applied in the case of the Labour party, but it can be applied in the case of the Tory party. I am deeply sorry that I have had to say any words of this kind about the hon. Member.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

You are not sorry at all.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain Bourne)

The hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) must not interrupt.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

Why should he say he is sorry when he is not sorry? He is quite pleased.

§ Mr. COVE

The hon. Member still displays his cynicism. He cannot escape from it, although he expresses it in the form of righteous indignation. I welcome the hon. Member's realising, after all, that there are human frailties and difficulties inherent in particular situations, but I would have him say that the Tory party is the historic enemy of the working classes, the party of reaction, and that whatever delinquencies there might be in the Labour party, it is the party of the Labour movement and represents the working classes of this country. If the hon. Member really wants to help the working classes, so far from denouncing the Labour party, I would invite him to join us and to help us in remedying the inflictions imposed on the unemployed by the Tory party.

§ Mr. BUCHANAN

I offered to join, provided that I would not be asked to vote for robbing the unemployed or to vote for reduced wages, and the Labour party refused to have me in unless I signed an unconditional form that if they wanted me I should have to vote for these things. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That is perfectly true.

§ Mr. COVE

I can only say, quite nicely, to the hon. Member that in that case nothing stands in his way, because the Labour party will not rob the unemployed and it will not impose on him more rigidity than it imposes upon me, and I am quite satisfied that the Labour party can have full freedom as far as I am concerned. My final word to the hon. Member is, that if he really wants to do something for the unemployed, if he really Wants to fight the means test and the Anomalies Act now, there is only one way in which he can do it, and that is by attacking and fighting the Government that is in power and endeavouring to unseat the Government. He gibes at the Labour party for the time being as simply futile and inept, if only for the reason that the Government are there with a strong majority, and his business as a representative—I give him credit for being one of the ablest and keenest representatives—of the unemployed in this House is to come over to us and to fight the Tory Government or the National Government, which is the same thing, and thus to help the unemployed.

416 I want now to pass to what was said by the Noble Lord the right hon. Member for Hastings. He spoke of the training of juveniles, and, as far as I could follow him, he had very little faith or hope in the ordinary education system. He seemed to convey to my mind that all educationists were extremely rigid and doctrinaire people. I think he has tried to appraise the attitude of educationists merely by what he thinks they are. I and many others interested in education do not say that there should be one type of school only, that we should give one rigid sort of education in our educational system. On the other hand, we do not admit, with the Noble Lord, that our secondary system has failed or that it is the cause of unemployment. As a matter of fact, he was, in my view, confusing effect and cause, and the more I study this question and think over it, while I am not averse to—indeed, I support—vocational education, technical education, practical education, or whatever it may be called, I am more and more driven to the view that in existing circumstances, from the point of view both of the morale of our adolescents and of the general well-being of the nation, a secondary system of education is the finest contribution that we can make to our national progress.

I am rather amused when I hear from the benches opposite lots of talk about practical education, about its being splendid, and so on. They are only paying lip service to it, for the simple reason that it is more costly than is a general, literary education. I want to tell the Minister that I am afraid the Noble Lord put me in the wrong position when he suggested that I would oppose the bridging of the gap as far as insurance is concerned. I and, I believe, a large number of educationists would warmly welcome the bridging of that gap. I see no sense at all in having children from 14 to 16 years of age clean out of our educational system and at the same time clean out of supervision under the insurance system. Therefore, as far as I am concerned—and there are men on these benches with wide educational and administrative experience who support me—I would welcome most warmly the bridging of the gap between the ages of 14 and 16.

I am willing to make another compromise with the Ministry. The Noble 417 Lord suggested that it would be ineffective, as far as employment is concerned, to raise the school leaving age. I deny that entirely, and I assert that, while the effect may be exaggerated, the raising of the school leaving age would be a, direct contribution to the solution of the unemployment problem in this country, equally, at the other end of the scale, as the giving of pensions to men at 60 years of age would be a contribution. While you cannot boil it down to exact statistics, it is true that every Act which goes to shorten the working life of people is a. contribution to the solution of unemployment. If you have the bulk of your population with a working life of 40 years instead of 45 years, either by a raising of the school leaving age or by giving pensions at 60, then, by reducing the general span of working life to 40 years, you are inevitably making a contribution to the solution of the problem of unemployment.

I want to say a word or two about the juvenile centres. A year or two ago I hoped to go round to some of these places. The Minister was good enough to say that it could be arranged, and accordingly I went round some of these centres.

§ Sir H. BETTERTON

May I say that I am most happy at all times to arrange for any hon. Member, wherever he may sit, to visit these centres at any time?

§ Mr. COVE

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that, and I will say, quite frankly, that I thoroughly enjoyed or, rather, appreciated, my visit to these centres. I do not agree that adolescents are not demoralised by unemployment. I think there is an element of demoralisation in youths being unemployed, and I would like to add, from a Socialist point of view, that if ever we come into possession of power, I would rather have a population to deal with whose morale was strong than a population which had been demoralised by a long period of unemployment. Anyhow, I believe that these juvenile unemployment centres are making a wonderful, an immense, contribution to the morale of these youths, and more particularly of the girls. I noticed that their physical bearing was entirely different. Their carriage seemed to indicate a sense of dignity, after they had been there, that they did not possess before they went to 418 these centres. It was not merely their interest in the particular work which they were doing, but the general sense of dignity and worth that these children got by attending these centres that impressed me more than anything else. If we can maintain our juveniles and keep that sense of dignity and worth alive, we shall be making a great contribution towards the conditions of life of a large number of these adolescents.

What I complain about is that far too little is being done. There is still room for a great extension of juvenile instruction centres. I would like to see the children kept at school until they can get work. I would like Parliament to say that so long as a child has no work it shall remain in the ordinary educational system. Wonderful and effective as the juvenile instruction centres are on what I would call the morale of the juveniles, they cannot by their very nature be the contribution that we desire from the educational point of view. You cannot plan a long time ahead and the curriculum is restricted. I make no criticism about those who are carrying them on, but the fact that they are unstable, that they can come into being and go out of being, that the personnel is continually changing, tends to destroy the higher educational value that ought to be given to adolescents at this age. Those of us who are interested in this question from the educational point of view are not doctrinaire or rigid. We are prepared to pool our ideas and to support the ideas of the Ministry and the Government if they will do something in a number of ways to tackle this terrible juvenile unemployment problem.

I observe from articles that I have read that juveniles are now becoming subject much more to in-and-out employment than they were a few years ago. As far as I can follow the state of juvenile unemployment, there is a far greater element of permanent unemployment among juveniles than hitherto. In the "Manchester Guardian" of the 1st June, there were statistics showing that there is a greater number of unemployed juveniles, that there is a greater permanent unemployment problem among juveniles than ever before, and that children coming out of school are sometimes out of work for a month, two months, three months and more extended periods before they can get into work. 419 That is particularly so in the depressed areas. In those areas we have children coming out of school from 14 to 18 years of age who cannot get into work. There is nothing for them to do. If an omnibus conductor's job is going there is as much social and political wire-pulling as if it were a post for a town-clerkship. If there is any little job going I am badgered out of my life by people who ask me to help them. Here is the problem—most of the juveniles in and out of work, most of them permanently unemployed, and most of those who do get work taking the places of adults.

Surely in the interests of the adolescents, in the interests of the social health of the nation, even as a sound economic proposition that it can be demonstrated to pay, we must deal with this juvenile unemployment problem in a much more drastic, comprehensive, and constructive manner than we have hitherto dealt with it. The Noble Lord seemed to me to be extremely pessimistic this morning. He saw a shrinking national income. So do I. He saw changes in the character of our industry from mass production to what I should imagine to be a more individual form of production. I do not see that in the main. What I do see is a contracting income, a permanent problem of unemployment, capitalism in a chronic and perpetual decline, without any hope for hundreds of thousands and millions of our working-class folk. An hon. Member opposite smiles, but his own Chancellor talks about 10 years with at least 2,000,000 unemployed. I think that it will be a longer period, but, if we take the Chancellor's period, surely it is vital in the interests of these youngsters and of the nation that we should do something to equip them permanently to make the best of their lives, to maintain their morale, and to expand their intellectual capacity. I do not believe that on the whole the most economic expenditure is that which merely has relation to vocation, because when the vocational training has been given the jobs are not there. Vocational training and technical training can be uneconomic unless there is an outlet to jobs after the training.

Therefore, this problem has to be considered in its human aspect, and we say that human beings in a civilised society have a right to food, shelter and culture, 420 and a right to participate in our glorious heritage of literature, art and so on. I oppose this Measure because it does nothing to meet that problem. It does not touch the fringe of it. I oppose it, because I hate and detest the means test. I have never subscribed to it. I have never admitted that transitional payment is a relief payment. No element of need should come in. I take the view that here are men and women in modern society thrown out of work owing to causes over which they have no control and as the result of the very progress of modern society. They are casualties to progress—not merely casualties to reaction and bad government, but casualties to progress and to the application of technical power and science. Therefore, this is a social problem, and the principle of a needs test is entirely alien to it. I shall take the simple stand, whether this party is in or out of office, that men who have been deprived of work are entitled to compensation for loss of wages. I am willing for a few people to get it in order that the majority may have some sort of justice. I am willing that a man with £1,000 invested should have his unemployment pay, and I am willing even that the rich man should have it, provided he takes his place in the queue, and is willing to work if it is offered. The simple test, the test that works out most justly is this: "Willing, available, ready to work when work is offered." If society cannot provide work, then society must find an adequate standard of life for a man through unemployment insurance as an elemental right.

§ Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKE

I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove) in all that he has said, but I would like to refer to that part of his speech in which he suggested that it would be wise to give an increased old age pension at a certain age, say 60 or 65, in order that people should take the pension and drop out of industry to make room for younger men who are unemployed. With that part of his speech I certainly agree, and I think it will be worth while for the Minister to bear that suggestion in mind when preparing his new Bill. My object in taking part in 421 this Debate is rather to substantiate and augment what was said on Wednesday by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North St. Pancras (Captain Fraser) when he was dealing with the means test as applied to disabled ex-service men and their pensions. He said that he was sorry that a percentage of the disability pension was ignored, and suggested, with which I entirely agree, that it would be better that a certain sum of money—he mentioned the sum of 15s. per week—should be ignored entirely by public assistance committees in determining what allowance to make to an applicant. I want to suggest to my right hon. Friend the Minister that he should bear that suggestion in mind. Last week there was a conference of the British Legion in London at which resolutions were passed that disability pensions of ex-service men should not be taken into consideration at all in calculating their means. Those of us who are more moderate than the majority, including my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North St. Pancras, told them very plainly that it could not be expected that the Government would take out of consideration entirely the pensions of disabled ex-service men, because some of them with 100 per cent. disability pensions are receiving more in pensions than others get in employment. But we did suggest that a more reasonable attitude might be taken. We felt that we might reasonably ask the Government to wipe out the percentage arrangement and substitute one under which the first 15s. or £l of a disabled ex-service man's pension should be ignored by the public assistance committee.

This morning the Anomalies Act has been mentioned. The anomalies so far have all been on one side; I wish to bring before the Minister anomalies from the opposite point of view. We all know of anomalies such as have been referred to, cases of those drawing unemployment benefit who were not really entitled to it. I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister cases where, in my opinion, people should be able to draw unemployment benefit who are not allowed to do so under the present regulations. I refer to men who work at outdoor occupations, such as roadmaking and sewer laying. I have in mind the case of a married man with four children who works in that way; 422 there are many