HC Deb 05 April 1933 vol 276 cc1767-891

Order for Second Reading read.

3.30 p.m.

The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon)

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

I rise to move the Second Reading of this Bill, which is in the hands of Members, and to make a few observations in connection with which the Members of the House will have in their hands a White Paper which was prepared at the request of some Members of the House. The House will observe that the Bill is a Measure for the single purpose of conferring powers upon the Government and that it does not include within its ambit any execution of those powers. Provided that, the House is prepared to give to the Government the powers for which they ask, I do not think that it will be disputed that the Bill is drawn in suitable terms. Those powers could not in any event be exercised before the 18th April, but we are asking the House to give us those powers now as a matter of urgency, among other things because Easter is approaching and, in the view of the Government, it is desirable that those powers should exist before the House adjourns.

I would desire to make a statement in the simplest terms, and as far as may be in the order of date, in order that hon. Members may have the material upon which they can judge whether the Government are justified in asking for this Bill. The House will recollect that the Anglo-Soviet Trade Agreement made some two years ago contained a Clause by which it was liable to be terminated by six months' notice on either side, and, after the Ottawa arrangements had been entered into, a communication was made by the Government to the Soviet Government announcing that we desired to give that six months' notice, and, at the same time, it made clear our willingness and, indeed, our desire to discuss and negotiate a new trade agreement. The notice was given, I think, on 17th October last, and it would therefore expire on 17th April next. So that notice having been given, and having been accompanied, as I have just reminded the House, by a plain statement that His Majesty's Government desired to discuss and to negotiate a new trade agreement, the matter was taken up between the representatives of the Soviet Government and the British Government, and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and my hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of the Overseas Trade Department have been more particularly concerned in carrying on the negotiations. Before the end of the Debate I have no doubt that the President of the Board of Trade will take part and will be able to give the House, with special authority, an account of how those negotiations were proceeding. My understanding has been throughout that they were proceeding with good purpose. The genuineness of the desire of the Government to enter into appropriate arrangements with Soviet Russia on the subject of trade is not really open to any doubt or dispute, and it would be a matter of sincere regret to us if some external event interfered with what might be a mutually reasonable arrangement.

But while those matters were proceeding, as far as I know in a perfectly satisfactory manner, a very disturbing event occurred which is the subject matter of the White Paper. I think that the House will desire me shortly to describe the course of events as far as I know them, and, of course, hon. Members will be able to check me by reference to the documents in the White Paper. One of the great British companies which in the past has been carrying on an important trade with Russia and in Russia is the Metropolitan-Vickers Co. Limited. Anybody who knows anything about that company knows its high standing in this country. It is material to remember and to know what have in the past been their relations with the Soviet Government, because, of course, we are dealing with a country where the trade is carried on entirely by the Government. Russia has bought power plant from Metropolitan-Vickers Limited extensively for the last 10 years. It is bound to be a difficult matter to operate very complicated plant in a country which is striving to change very rapidly from an almost purely agricultural to, at any rate, a partially industrial condition, but I am strictly within the truth when I say that the plant which has been supplied by Messrs. Metropolitan-Vickers to the Russian Government has received the highest praise from those Soviet engineers who have a knowledge of power generating problems. Probably one or two Members of the House know this subject very well, and if in the course of the Debate they can catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, I know that they will receive the attention which the House always gives to a man who knows what he is talking about.

In addition, the Soviet Government entered into what are called technical assistance arrangements with Metropolitan-Vickers Limited. As the House will understand, this plant being of a very complicated character and the Russians to a large extent being new to these processes, contracts were made to run for a series of years by which Metropolitan-Vickers supplied some of their best and most skilful men for the purpose of not only installing, but starting the running of the plant. The first of those technical assistance arrangements ran for a period of five years. It was carried through from beginning to end successfully, and the best proof that the Soviet authorities realised that they were getting fair treatment and proper services is that a second agreement was entered into only two years ago, and has at present, I believe, another five years to run. I ask the House to observe, when they are judging the probabilities and common sense of this matter, that they are therefore dealing with a company, and with the expert servants of a company now resident in Russia, who might be expected to be there for another five years. I think that that has some bearing upon the matter.

No complaint has been lodged as to the operation of this second agreement, and the record of the plant which Metropolitan-Vickers have supplied may be judged, therefore, from these two facts. The first is the fact, as I have just stated, that the second technical agreement was entered into only two years ago after long experience of the work of the company and its staff. The second, the House may be interested to know, is that as recently as six months ago the Soviet Government placed an order for a turbogenerator equipment—and placed it with Metropolitan-Vickers, Limited—to work at the highest combined temperature and pressure yet attempted anywhere in the world. I think the Soviet Government is always ready to go in for the newest experiments and the latest improvements, and to that extent they are a very efficient Government. The placing of that order, in competition and after prolonged deliberation, is surely evidence of the fact that the highest Russian technical authorities advised their Government that they could entrust this most difficult undertaking to the Metropolitan-Vickers Company. I think we are all agreed as to that.

Then certain events occurred, some of which are included in the White Paper. On the night of the 11th March the Ogpu, that is, the Ogpu police, the political police which works in secret and has enormous powers, visited the house where some of the engineers were living and, without any communication as to the charge which was proposed to be laid, they first searched the house and then arrested Mr. Monkhouse and Mr. Thornton, who were removed at 2 o'clock in the morning to the great prison in Moscow, the name of which I will not try to pronounce. Next morning two other engineers, Mr. Cushny and Mr. Macdonald, were raided early in the morning in the flat where they lived and were similarly taken off to gaol.

Nobody for a moment disputes, certainly I do not, the sovereign authority of any foreign Government to make proper investigations, to lay proper charges and to conduct proper trials. The world could not go on if we simply regarded ourselves as the only people in the world who were capable of administering justice. But I am entitled to direct the attention of the House to circumstances which immediately accompanied these arrests. Just at the same time, as the House will see by telegram No. 3 in the White Paper, the same Ogpu police in, I believe, the same prison, after what was supposed to be an inquiry by what is called the Collegium of Ogpu, on the previous day not merely sentenced 35 people, Russians, to death, but carried out that sentence there and then, without any public trial, without, as far as I know, any trial at all, and certainly without putting into motion any of the ordinary judicial proceedings of Russia. I hope that I may be forgiven for saying that when at the Foreign Office I receive a telegram which tells me that a certain number of British engineers were in the hands of the Ogpu, and at the same time I receive information saying that the Ogpu had shot 35 people without trial, I am entitled to be a little concerned.

Let me give another instance with reference to the shooting of these 35 Russians. No newspaper appears in Russia, except what the Russian Government allows to appear, but three or four days before the shooting of these 35 Russians there appeared in the Soviet Press a statement that some 40 Russians had been arrested for a crime which the House will see goes by the rather curious description of "agricultural sabotage." In the newspaper which reported the arrest of these men details were given of the charges, and the House may be interested to know that one of the charges was "deliberate propagation of weeds in the fields and lowering of crop yields." [Laughter.] I do not desire at any stage to raise a laugh. I quote this not to raise a laugh, but to show how one was entitled to be concerned as to the credibility of some of the charges on which these engineers had been detained.

Thereupon, the British Ambassador did what was entirely right and proper. He immediately sent to make inquiries, which I think the whole House will approve. He sent, as he was bound to send, to the Foreign Office at Moscow. That is the way in which a foreign country acts when it has a communication to make. He sent Mr. Strang, the Counsellor of the Embassy, who is at present acting as Chargé d'Affaires, and for whose services we are greatly indebted. The three questions which Mr. Strange addressed to the Foreign Office at Moscow appear at the top of page 4 of the White Paper. He asked:

  1. "1. On what charge the arrests had been made.
  2. 2. Where the arrested persons now were.
  3. 3. Whether it was permissible for the arrested persons to communicate with or he visited by a member of Embassy or Consulate or by one of their own colleagues."
Those were three perfectly proper questions to put, and to put without delay, and, let the House observe, they were put to the responsible Foreign Office at Moscow. The answer was that that day was a day of rest, and that consequently the matter could not be attended to on that day, but none the less a report would be drawn up and inquiry would be made on the following day. Mr. Strang pointed out the high standing of the company and the manifest improbability of their trusted officials engaged in doing this work being involved in malpractices, but he had to leave the matter as it was. The Ambassador sent a telegram to me on the same day in which he pointed out that this case was more serious than the raid which took place some time back on the Lena offices, because this was a case in which these English engineers had been arrested and carried off and, as the House realises, without anybody knowing what they were charged with and without the responsible Government of the country being able to give any information about it. His Majesty's Ambassador, as the House will see at the bottom of page 4, made this observation: On the assumption that the Soviet Government do not at once liberate prisoners I am inclined to suggest, at the risk of His Majesty's Government incurring an accusation of participation in prejudging an issue of which legal remedies have not been exhausted, that Soviet Ambassador, London, should be frankly warned that if his Government wish to continue to entertain friendly relations with His Majesty's Government they must refrain from being drawn by an excessive zeal on the part of police into permitting the trumping up of frivolous and fantastic accusations against a friendly and reputable British company. Otherwise, it will obviously become impossible for any British subject to conduct business in Russia, and conclusion of a trade agreement will be pointless. I, at any rate, stand here to defend His Majesty's Ambassador, armed with His Majesty's authority, in a very difficult situation, and, while I am not in the least qualifying the view, which we all entertain, that proper inquiry based upon a proper accusation may be properly carried out in any country in the world, I would point out that this observation is made at a time when it appears that the responsible Government of the country professes to know nothing about it, and when these proceedings have been taken by the Ogpu, whose relations with the Russian Foreign Office are obviously of a very indirect description. There was then the arrest, I think, of two more Englishmen, and—a matter which does not directly concern me here, but as I am responsible for British subjects in other parts of the world, but a matter which concerns in its wider aspect—some nine or 10 of the Russian staff employed by Metropolitan-Vickers were arrested, including two or three women. If hon. Members will kindly turn to page 6 they will find that on the next day, after Mr. Monkhouse and these other gentlemen had been in custody for a day and a night, the British Ambassador again addressed the Foreign Office at Moscow. The day previous was a rest day, but this, however, was not a rest day. He requested an interview with M. Litvinoff. I do not seek to impute anything to M. Litvinoff, but M. Litvinoff was not able to sec the Ambassador that day, he was too busy, but he was good enough to say that he would see him the next day. Therefore His Majesty's Ambassador did what was quite proper, and what is usually done by foreign Ambassadors in this country when they cannot see the Foreign Secretary; they see somebody else, and our Ambassador therefore saw a gentleman called M. Krestinski. This gentleman, it must be remembered, is speaking as the representative of the Foreign Office in Moscow two days after these Englishmen have been taken away without any charge made. He said: although inquiries had been made of prosecuting authorities no information was, as yet, forthcoming. He promised, however, that he would telephone. Our Ambassador observed, as did Mr. Strang on the previous occasion: that when prosecuting authorities had digested the papers seized they would discover that a mistake had been made. I pointed out that Soviet laws were different from English laws. Thirty-five Russians had just been executed for offences not involving death penalty in England. And he added with perfect justice, that the English man-in-the-street would be totally unable to comprehend the arrest, by the same authorities, of well-known honourable British subjects on what could only be a criminal charge, the nature of which was still undisclosed thirty-six hours later. [Interruption.] Some hon. Members question that. May I tell them that in the middle of the eighteenth century in this House there was a big constitutional controversy in which the whole House was concerned with regard to general warrants, and that the right to go and take a man away, without stating the charge, was a gross breach of the liberty of the subject? I desire to lose no time in stating when and how it was possible for the Russian Foreign Office to inform our Ambassador of what had happened. It is recorded at the bottom of page 7 of the White Paper. The British Ambassador was rung up after midnight, and an agent of the Commissariat of Foreign Affairs made an oral communication, the effect of which is to be found in the communiquê at the bottom of page 8. This is the statement, the first issued by the Russian authorities as to what was in the wind; and I propose to read it to the House: An investigation made by internal authorities in regard to a series of successive and unexpected break-downs which have recently taken place in large electrical stations at Moscow, Cheliabinsk, Zuevo Zlatoust has established that these breakdowns are the results of wrecking activities of a group of criminal elements among employees of Commissariat of Heavy Industry, who had as their object to destroy the electrical stations of the U.S.S.R. and to put out of operation factories dependent upon them. Investigation has shown that there was active participation in activities of wrecking group by certain employes of Metro-Vickers working in U.S.S.R. under technical aid contracts concluded with this firm in regard to electrical enterprises in U.S.S.R. More than 20 Soviet citizens have been arrested, and also British subjects Monkhouse, Thornton, Cushny, Macdonald, Gregory and Nordwall. Investigating authorities have found it possible to change preventive measures"— That means that they were let out on a written parole— in regard to Monkhouse and Nordwall, who have already been set at liberty, but under written undertaking not to leave Moscow. Arrested persons are in Moscow. Visit of member of Embassy to accused persons will be permitted in presence of representatives of investigating authorities, under condition, however, that no reference is made to substance of affair, in regard to which investigation is not yet complete. I do not expect everybody's laws to be the same, but the House should know what our own custom is. Our own prison regulations are, and have been for years, that when a man has been Arrested and charged on suspicion with crime, and is in custody, he is entitled to be visited by his barrister or solicitor, or any other reasonable person, and, as a matter of fact, not only is there no rule that he may make no reference to the "substance of the Affair," but we think it fair and we practise the rule that when he sees his adviser, though it is true be sees him within sight of a police officer, the officer is not within hearing. This was the first time we had any means of knowing why these people should have been arrested, and we learn that investigation has shown that they are in active participation in activities of wrecking group. The House will have read the telegram which appears on page 9. Before I read it I must point out that there is later on confirmation from M. Litvinoff himself of the character of the examination of Mr. Monkhouse. Let me summarise the account. Mr. Monkhouse, having had no charge made against him and having been carried off to prison in the early hours of the morning, was subjected to a first examination which began at eight o'clock in the morning. It went on for 19 consecutive hours, without break. I have inquired from our Ambassador about the examiners. On the side of the examiners there were three teams of examiners which took one another's place, but on the side of the person examined he was, of course, the same person all the time. Mr. Monkhouse was given his food, but during the time he had his food the examination did not cease. Let us look at the nature of the examination. If you take a man and say: "I have here a serious piece of evidence which I put before you, can you explain it," I can understand that inquiries might take some time. But if the House will examine this account they will see that what in this country we would call a fishing inquiry was conducted. There was nothing whatever to go upon. It was merely an effort, hour after hour, to try to get this man to commit himself to something. He was not informed on what charge he was arrested but was called upon to make a complete confession. The first questions addressed to him were with regard to political and economic espionage. He admitted that he had made a practice of visiting London two or three times a year to keep his company informed as to the state of their business with Russia, of the general situation in the Union and of the prospects of obtaining further business. The House will be surprised to learn that in Russia this is looked upon as espionage. These reports were naturally based on information that was obtained from the company's and other engineers in various parts of the country. He was informed that this was espionage, as it was a criminal offence to acquire political and economic information except from persons officially authorised to communicate it. He was forced to sign a statement that he was engaged in what the examiners contended was espionage, but added a note to the effect that his action was taken only in the interests of his firm. That was an examination which was spread over 19 hours. Then A list was produced of 25 turbines supplied by the company which had given trouble. This he admitted was true. Fault lay partly with Russians themselves, but it was also true technical mistakes had been made by the company. Machines supplied were not of standard type, but generally represented some new technical development insisted upon by the Russians themselves. It was natural that there should occasionally be mishaps. The company had, however, in every case taken rapid action to repair them. At the end of 19 hours of continuous examination, Mr. Monkhouse was taken back to his cell about 3 o'clock in the morning. Then there is a period of four or five hours, and the next examination began. I desire to be entirely fair. Though it is true he was disturbed during that very short period of rest in the early hours of the morning, I understand it was in the ordinary prison routine which sometimes involves interruptions of rest, without that being done with any malicious intent. But at 7.30 in the morning a second examination started, and this examination continued for about 17 hours, with one hour interval, that is, from 7.30 in the morning until 1.30 in the following morning with an interval between 11 p.m. and midnight. This examination first turned on the question of certain electrical motors supplied by the company which had not been found satisfactory. The same observations apply to those as to the machines mentioned above. He was then questioned regarding the company's accounts, in regard to which questions had already been put to him during the first examination. The House will observe this strange conclusion: About 11 p.m. his examiners left him hurriedly but returned again at 12. He was asked if there was anything more he could think of to say. He had, they said, confessed nothing so far. If he continued to refuse to confess he would be treated as a criminal. At this point the examiners suddenly changed their attitude and Monk-house was informed that they had come to the conclusion that he had given his evidence like an honest man and that Menzhinski had given orders for him to be released. He would, however, be required to give an undertaking that he would not leave Moscow, which he did. He was treated throughout with great politeness amounting almost to effusion on his departure. The senior examining officer and commander of the prison finally escorted him to a closed car in which he was taken to his house in Perlovka. Well, in the course of my professional life I have had occasion to study, as well as I could, many systems of law, and to realise and appreciate that many other systems stand very well to be considered as proper systems as well as our own. But I do not think that there is a man or woman in this House who will dispute that any admission obtained by this means is worthless. I think the House will appreciate how gravely concerned His Majesty's Ambassador was. He has, as I have, and we all have, to consider how we can secure fair treatment for our British fellow-subjects. Our Ambassador sent a telegram which he reminds the Foreign Office that, unhappily, there are precedents in this matter. He refers to what is called the Donbas case. Investigations proceeded in similar manner, although they were not actually known in Moscow for some days after. German Government insisted on presence of German lawyer to attend them. This was refused, but a German lawyer was present at the trial, sitting mostly in a box with reporters. Trial was at the Supreme Court of Justice in Moscow, and only defence was that officially provided by Russian Government. Statements extracted from German accused were not brought up in court against them, but evidence wrung from other persons was quoted against them. May I give the House two short examples of previous trials extracted from the despatches of our own Ambassador? The first is the Donbass case of 1928, when a large number of persons, including some German engineers, were accused of sabotage on a colossal scale in the South of Russia, indeed, it was alleged that they formed part of a counterrevolutionary organisation making it its object to disorganise and ruin the coal industry in the Shakhta region in the Donetz Basin. The result was that 11 persons were condemned to death and 34 persons were sentenced to various terms of imprisonment ranging from one to ten years. Anyone who has read the reports of that trial will appreciate at once how widely Soviet Russia's conceptions of justice differ from our own. The second instance of which I will remind the House is the Ramzin trial of 1930, when again a number of Russians were accused of conducting a vast system of sabotage at foreign instigation. Accusations were made at this trial against both the British and French Governments for which we know, as far as we are concerned, there was not a shadow of foundation. A number of so-called confessions—one realises how they were got—were produced at this trial. The House can best judge of the value of these confessions from the fact that one of the accused confessed that he had been plotting with a man named Rzabushinski, who was afterwards proved to have been dead at the time the conspiracy was alleged to have taken place, and this was the same trial as that to which Sir Robert Vansittart refers in page 17 of the White Paper, when he recalled a trial some years ago at which certain Russians had confessed that they had come over and plotted with Colonel Lawrence in England, when, as a matter of fact Colonel Lawrence, in his character as Air-Craftsman Shaw, was in India all the time.

The House, I think, will see that there was at least reason for the acutest anxiety as to what might be the next stage that might be taken in this matter. Right down to this time no answers had been received to the very proper questions which had been put on behalf of the British Government. No talk was allowed with these people of anything which had to do with the reason why they had been confined. At the bottom of page 11 it will be seen that another gentleman, a very distinguished gentleman, at the Foreign Office at Moscow, M. Rubinin, was asked about this, and here is the answer: As regards the question as to whether there was going to be a trial, Rubinin professed complete inability to reply. I (Sir E. Ovey) spoke to him very strongly on the aggravation of situation which would result from non-reply to this question, with the result that he telephoned later to state that 'there will be a trial,' and said that I could give this assurance on behalf of Commissariat for Foreign Affairs. With regard to question 'Would it be public?' even in his second conversation he refused to commit himself beyond saying that this depended on result of inquiries. It was a matter for juridical authorities. I said: 'Who? Did he really mean that G.P.U. would themselves decide whether trial would be open or not?' Hon. Members who have read the White Paper will know it is established that that is so, but this gentleman of the Russian Foreign Office replied evasively about various juridical tribunals, alleging his ignorance of law. Very properly the Ambassador pressed for an answer. As regards the third question: he informed me prisoners can under law have no legal assistance whatever pending completion of the present inquisition. That is to say confession first, legal assistance after. Under any reasonable system of justice in any country that cannot be the way to find out the truth. At the bottom of page 12 it will be seen that when the interview took place, it had to be done all the way through in the presence of four officials. There was no opportunity of private communication whatever, and these men, whatever you think of them, are British subjects, and, so far as we know, so far as we can judge, were doing their ordinary work in the ordinary way. Yet they were limited, after these days of anxiety, to this—that the best that they could do—and I honour them for it—was to say, "Telegraph to my wife," and one of them telegraphed to his wife to tell her that he was happy and away in the country, because he was so afraid of the horrible anxiety that might be aroused. At the same time, they admitted that they were well looked after. But in these matters seeing is believing, and I venture to think that the House will attach great importance to the telegram in the White Paper which gives Sir Esmond Ovey's own views when at last he saw these men face to face. No question was allowed as to the Charges or as to the investigation, and no communication passed except innocent questions such as those concerning their families. I would ask the House to ponder what it meant to a British Government when they got this telegram from their Ambassador in Moscow: While the prisoners seemed generally in good health, the drawn expressions of Messrs. Thornton and Cushny gave me definite impression of their having been 'put through it.' They were all obviously terrified of speaking. Englishmen terrified of speaking. And then this: My own position was difficult, as I was not allowed to refer in any way to the fact of the liberty or otherwise of any of their colleagues. I was warned in reply to inquiry that this prohibition included a reference even to knowledge in England of arrests. Gregory knew he was not the only person arrested, but was actually under the impression that arrests were unknown in England and expressed desire to write a letter to his wife explaining that he was on his way to Moscow so that she would not worry at not hearing from him. While I was of course received with utmost courtesy and military display, the obsequiousness of the unfortunate prisoners and utterly artificial atmosphere of restraint created an uncanny impression. I am well content to leave it to the judgment of the House and the country. The question as to whether the trial should be open or secret was still unsettled, and the telegram at the bottom of page 14 gives the Ambassador's view of the situation. No one need accept it unless he likes, but our Ambassador has lived in Russia for three years, and there is no reason to believe he is other than a prudent, an honourable and a careful public servant. He has served the late Government as well as this Government, and, as far as I know, with equal satisfaction to both. He says: Principal danger of situation would seem to be that these people are completely unable to see themselves in any other light than that of an aggrieved Power struggling for their noble ideals against a world of political, financial and comicercial conspirators. This feeling has reached a stage of morbid hysteria. Any conception that His Majesty's Government can possibly look upon the affair in the light of a spectacular treason trial, staged for reasons of internal politics on evidence to which the man-in-the-street in England will not give any possible credence, is, in spite of my repeated efforts, apparently incomprehensible to them. Nor can they understand that the method of summary arrest followed by the inquisition of solitary confined British subjects by a force which has been instructed by decree issued yesterday to use what it is already difficult to distinguish from dictatorial power in a still more ruthless manner are liable in any way to disturb the friendly relations which it has been the constant endeavour of His Majesty's Government during the last three and a half years to cultivate. Now, Mr. Speaker, His Majesty's Government have not the slightest desire to disturb the friendly relations between this country and Russia, but let there be no mistake, there is no proper basis for real friendly relations if the story which we read here represents the kind of way in which, in spite of much patience and much care on the part of our Ambassador, British subjects have been treated. What is the Decree which at this significant moment is to increase the power of the Ogpu, which already has the power of life and death, and only a few days before shot 35 Russians in prison without any public trial? They will find it on page 15. The Central Executive Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which is the central Government of Russia, issued on 14th March, a few days after the arrests, this public document: There have recently been disclosed instances of the participation in counterrevolutionary wrecking activities of certain State employés"— I have been at some pains to inquire whether that reference should be understood to refer to these Englishmen, and I gather that their actual contract is such that in one sense they are in the service of the Soviet State— In this connection the Central Executive Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics explains that the right accorded to the Ogpu by the Decree of the Central Executive Committee of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics of 15th November 1923, of dealing at judicial sessions of the collegium of the Ogpu"— That is to say a secret trial within the walls of the prison— with cases of sabotage, arson, explosion, damage to machine plant of State undertakings, and other forms of sabotage and of applying all measures of repression according to the nature of the offence, must be exercised with especial severity in regard to employés of State institutions and undertakings convicted, of such offences. I think I have sufficiently put before the House what was the origin of this affair. I do not wish to delay the House by reading other telegrams which probably nearly every Member has read for himself, but I would like to deal, before I cease dealing with the White Paper, with the passage which shows that Mr. Litvinoff himself is quite aware of the character of the treatment which was imposed upon Mr. Monkhouse. If hon. Members will turn to page 22 they will find a record of an interview between our Ambassador and Mr. Litvinoff in which Mr. Litvinoff was informed of what had been stated in the House of Commons by the Lord President of the Council. On page 22, Mr. Litvinoff says: G.P.U. were not fools and knew what they were doing. Mr. Monkhouse's release was really an act of kindness, and the intensiveness of interrogation of the prisoner showed the courtesy of Soviet Government in wishing to expedite the affair. I noticed in one of the newspapers to-day a comment on the White Paper, which I would remind the House was issued at the request of hon. Members opposite. The comment is made—I cannot imagine from what inspired source—that the reasons why we do not publish telegrams after these is that after this date the Soviet Government showed themselves "unexpectedy conciliatory." I have no idea where the "Daily Herald" gets that information from. I will tell the House what the reason is, and I think most hon. Members will see the good sense of it. I had considerable doubt, sitting beside the Prime Minister the other day, when a question was put by the Leader of the Opposition, quite reasonably from his point of view, whether it really was in the interests of these men's safety to lay a White Paper. If the Prime Minister seemed then to anybody to be hesitating in his replies, I take the responsibility, for I was not willing, with my knowledge of these documents, without looking at them closely, not even for the purpose of satisfying a Parliamentary demand, to do what I thought might be dangerous to these men. I am perfectly satisfied that the House will take it from me that if we were to publish some of these documents which follow—they will not be destroyed and will be available in course of time if necessary—it would perhaps not be in the interests of the men themselves. Therefore, I hope the House will accept it that they have enough material to enable them to judge why His Majesty's Government have thought it right to ask for some special authority from the House.

All I desire to say about it is this: I perfectly understand, and we all understand, that there is no direct, immediate relation between the powers which are contained in this Bill and this painful and anxious inquiry which is going on in Moscow. But I ask myself this question, and I ask it with great anxiety and put it to hon. Members in all parts of the House: What would you have the British Government do when they have this information about fellow subjects of their own who are in this peril? Would you have them do nothing? Would you have them conduct polite inquiries without taking any other steps? I know of no other way in which we can secure for these men a fair trial—none. I know of no way in which I can bring home to these deluded inhabitants of Soviet Russia what is going on; there is no means by which we can get that communication before their eyes.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

Go to war.

Sir J. SIMON

But there is one thing that we can do which, I hope, is more peaceful than that. I am sure my hon. Friend would never deliberately accuse me in this matter of endeavouring to promote a war. There is one thing, I think, which we can do. We have to see whether there is any authority which the House will now give to the Government which will at least convey directly and beyond doubt to the Soviet authorities that the way in which these proceedings are going on, and the anxiety that we are under about these men, make it really impossible to go on discussing trade agreements with Russia in such an atmosphere. I am myself, just as much to-day as ever I was, very desirous of seeing a trade agreement on proper terms entered into. What is the real difficulty? We may just as well face it. It is that owing to the constitution of Soviet Russia, owing to the fact that the State, the Russian Government, is the sole purchaser and the sole buyer, the application in a trading agreement of what is called the "most-favourednation clause" is distorted and ridiculous. Russia has it in its power to stop any goods going from this country to Russia, and she can do that without any breach of the "most-favoured-nation clause," because the only importer is the Russian State.

We ask the House, not in the interests of the Government, but in the interests, as we believe, of these men, and in the interests of bringing home to the Soviet State the real gravity of the situation—we ask the House to give the Government this power. Why, the Soviet Government have it at this moment! Hon. Gentlemen opposite, I am sure, will not object to that. The Russian Government at this moment have the power, and can exercise it exactly as they please, to stop any portion of British exports to Russia. We ask by this Bill to have that same power. The Government have not the slightest intention of making any statement to the House as to the use of that power, except that it could not possibly be used before 18th April. As a result of many inquiries we have learned that the trial of these men is likely to begin about 10th April, and if it goes on for three or four days it will extend into Easter week. We shall then be in Recess. I ask the House if there is nothing else that we can do to help British subjects who are in peril, to at least do this—to give the Government and the country to which they belong, and to which they look, this authority, and to trust us to use it in their interests and in the interests of the State.

4.28 p.m.

Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS

I beg to move to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words: Command Paper No. 4286 discloses no adequate grounds for the demand made by His Majesty's Government for the liberation of the employés of the Metropolitan-Vickers Company at Moscow without trial, or for the granting to His Majesty's Government, for the purpose of reprisals against the Government of Russia, of the exceptional powers for prohibition of imports proposed in the Bill. It is obvious that we are to-day discussing a matter of first-class gravity. The fact that the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary has moved the Second Reading of this Bill shows how intimately this Bill is connected with the relation of this country to Russia. I suppose that everyone who speaks in this discussion must realise that gravity and his responsibility, and the necessity for avoiding, as far as possible, any language of exaggeration which may do anything to exacerbate feelings which already are running high. The right hon. Gentleman has given us a very lurid picture of the events in Russia, drawn from the White Paper, which takes us up to 16th March. Some time ago now those events no doubt have been superseded by further events which the right hon. Gentleman has told us it is wiser not to disclose. We, of course, accept his statement as to that. But the position is that the House is left to judge of what action it should take upon the White Paper itself. It may be that there are some persons who would welcome this opportunity for prohibiting imports of Russian goods, irrespective of the reason why the powers are asked. I ask those right hon. and hon. Gentlemen to consider this matter in the light of what our actions will be interpreted to mean after the speech which has just been made by the Foreign Secretary.

The House is being asked to grant powers to the Government as against a particular foreign nation, powers which, as far as I know, are unprecedented in any recent years in the history of this country. I want to examine the position shortly, and I hope calmly, in order to see whether it is really in the best interests not only of this country but of the accused persons themselves, that we should take the action now proposed. I am sure there is one proposition of international law upon which everybody in this House will be absolutely at one, and that is that this country has an absolute right to afford protection to its subjects, wherever they may be abroad, in any foreign country. That right, of course, carries with it the duty to see that that protection is given and also the duty, in any particular case where it may appear that its subjects are in jeopardy, to make the fullest possible inquiry in order to ascertain the whole of the facts with regard to those subjects. I think that is a right which every other country will admit, and that they would be prepared, as they have been in this case, to furnish information through the usual diplomatic channels in order to keep the Foreign Office in this country fully acquainted with what is going on.

It is unlikely from the experience of the past that any country will resent courteous suggestions which are made to it or even representations as to courses of action that should be followed in cases where difficulties of this sort arise. But there will be a limit to the forbearance of any country and it may appear to some hon. and right hon. Gentlemen that a country addressed in the terms set out in Document 27 in the White Paper, may well think that that limit has been passed. Beyond this right to make the fullest inquiry and obtain the fullest information, international law recognises no right of interference in the internal affairs of a foreign country, unless certain specified states of affairs can be shown to have arisen with regard to the nationals of another country. If these specified circumstances can be shown to have arisen, no one will dispute that there is a right to interfere by making the strongest representations and the strongest demands, and, if those representations and demands are not satisfied, that there is the right to engage in measures of reprisal such as the reprisal foreshadowed in the present Bill. Of course that does not necessarily say that those reprisals are to be undertaken. What I have said merely sets out the understood course of events, according to the comity of nations which has grown up in the civilised world.

Every country which is recognised by this country as an equal in status, internationally, is, by that very recognition, acknowledged to have the right to be treated fully in accordance with the comity of nations. At the present time, as has been the case for some years past, Russia is so treated by this country. The mutual exchange of ambassadors is the outward sign of that recognition. Therefore, apart from any special circumstances which may be urged—and the Foreign Secretary has urged none to-day—Russia is in the same international position vis-à-vis this country as Germany, the United States, or any other great nation in the world. If that be so, it behoves the House to inquire what are the necessary conditions precedent to the interference by one country in the internal affairs of another and to the taking of reprisals, if that interference is not successful.

This is a matter of such fundamental importance in the consideration of this subject—more important I venture to suggest than the Foreign Secretary's speech would have led one to believe—that I ask the House to allow me to read one or two extracts on this matter from persons of the most undoubted authority. I start in the 18th century, with the famous letter of the Duke of Newcastle to the Secretary to the Embassy of the King of Prussia, which was written after complaints by the King of Prussia that Prussian subjects had been unfairly dealt with by our courts here, and enclosed a considered statement made out by the Judge of the Prerogative Court, His Majesty's Advocate General in the Courts of Civil Law, His Majesty's Attorney-General, and His Majesty's Solicitor-General. I cite only a passage from this document forwarded to the King of Prussia.

Commander OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSON

Were they arrested without notice of trial in that case?

Sir S. CRIPPS

Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will allow me to deal with this matter—

Commander LOCKER-LAMPSON

Will the hon. and learned Gentleman answer that point?

Sir S. CRIPPS

Certainly. This was not a case of the arrest of Prussian subjects. It dealt with a question of the seizure of the goods of Prussian subjects. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I think hon. and right hon. Gentlemen ought to show some consideration in a matter of this kind, which is of prime and fundamental importance, whether they happen to agree with this statement or not. The opinion states: The Law of Nations founded upon justice, equity, convenience and the reason of the thing, and confirmed by long usage, do not allow of reprizals except in case of violent injuries, directed or supported by the State, and justice absolutely denied … by all tribunals"— [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen need not be afraid that I am not going to deal with the facts afterwards. I desire to get clearly before the House, if I may, the principles which ought to govern the determination of those facts. This document proceeds: and afterwards by the Prince. Where judges are left free and give sentence according to their conscience, though it should be erroneous, that would be no ground for reprizals. Upon doubtful questions different men think and judge differently; and all a friend can desire is that justice should be impartially administered to him as it is to the subjects of that Prince, in whose courts the matter is tried. Hon. Members will see that the whole point of that very elaborate statement sent by the Duke of Newcastle was that there could be no complaint, provided the subjects visiting the foreign country were dealt with as justly as the subjects of that country itself. If hon. Gentlemen are patient enough to allow me to give a further citation I quote this time from Mr. Clay who was Secretary of State to the United States of America in 1828. Writing as regards certain troubles in a South American State, he says: It is not necessary to affirm that a Government is not responsible in any case to a foreign Government for an alleged erroneous judicial decision rendered to the prejudice of a subject of said foreign Government. But it may be safely asserted that this responsibility can only arise in a proceeding where the foreigner, being duly notified, shall have made a full and bona fide, though unavailing, defense, and, if necessary, shall have carried his case to the tribunal of last resort. If, after having made such defense and prosecuted such appeal, he shall have been unable to obtain justice, then and then only, can a demand be with propriety made upon the Government. Again we find emphasised there the fact which is in the Amendment I now bring before the House, that until a decision has been given by the local court, it is not in accordance with the comity of nations that any interference should be embarked upon by the foreign State.

Mr. SMITHERS

When the men have been executed?

Commander LOCKER-LAMPSON

Wait until they are shot.

Mr. SPEAKER

I would remind hon. Gentlemen that this is a Debate and that there will be a full opportunity afterwards of answering this speech. They must not interrupt while the speech is being made.

Sir S. CRIPPS

I propose to give the House one final reference, this time to a great authority, Sir Robert Phillimore, who in his book "Commentaries on International Law," states the matter with great precision and clarity: The State to which the foreigner belongs may interfere for his protection when he has received positive maltreatment, or when he has been denied ordinary justice in the foreign country. The State of the foreigner may insist upon reparation immediately in the former case. In the latter, the interference is of a more delicate character. The State must be satisfied that its citizen has exhausted the means of legal redress afforded by the tribunals of the country in which he has been injured. If those tribunals are unable or unwilling to entertain and adjudicate upon his grievance, the ground for interference is fairly laid, but it behoves the interfering State to take the utmost care, first that the commission of the wrong be clearly established, secondly that the denial of the local tribunals to decide the question at issue be no less clearly established. It is only after those propositions have been irrefragably proved that the State of a foreigner can demand reparation at the hands of the Government of his country, and it is not till after the Executive as well as the Judicial authorities have refused redress, that recourse can be had to reprisals much less to war. These extracts put forward with complete accuracy the position as regards the interference of this country in these proceedings in Russia, and they make clear that there are three conditions precedent to action such as the Government are proposing to take by this Bill. The first is that the citizens in question have exhausted all means of legal redress afforded by the local tribunals. Quite clearly that cannot happen until after the trial of the cause or prosecution against them. The second is that the commission of the wrong against these individuals must be clearly established, and the third is that the denial by the local tribunals of justice must be equally clearly established. The cause for that is perfectly clear. Every country has an absolute obligation to protect its own social order, whatever it may be, and it can only so do by passing legislation, which may be quite different in form from that of another country, and by insisting upon the observance of that legislation, not only by citizens of that country, but also by foreigners who care to visit that country.

There is perhaps some confusion with regard to countries which are looked upon as so undeveloped or so barbaric in their systems that another country refuses to recognise them at all as sovereign countries. In that case the position as regards interference is completely different, but once a country has said to another country, "We know your forms, we know your legislation, we know your system of justice; we acknowledge you as a sovereign country, and we give our inhabitants passports to go into your country, knowing what the state of the law is"—it is not possible then, within the comity of nations, for that country to turn round and say, "Your forms are so bad or so unlike our own that we have a right and a title to interfere with the due course of justice in your country, because we believe that it is not justice at all." That can only be done as regards countries which are unrecognised as equal in the comity of nations.

If that is a true statement of international law, the question arises for the consideration of the House: Is there in this ease anything disclosed so far—and I emphasise the words "so far"—to entitle this GOvernment to take the hostile action which it is taking by passing this Bill through the House of Commons? For this purpose, of course, it is necessary to examine the only material that there is before us, and that is the White Paper. The facts set out there, of course, are only the facts set out by one side, and there may be another side to them, but I propose to deal with them as they are set out here, as they are all the information that we have. It will be noticed that the proceedings started in a perfectly regular way, just as they might in this country, with a search warrant which was issued for the searching of these offices. Certain documents were taken, and receipts were given for the documents by the police who conducted the search, and as a result of the search, apparently, two or more of the members of the staff were put under arrest.

That was early on the morning of the 12th March, and I beg the House to bear in mind that the last document in this White Paper is dated the 16th March, that is, less than five complete days in the course of these 30 or 31 documents. Very often, indeed, when one reads a document and turns on several pages and sees the answer to it, perhaps it may give the impression that there was delay in giving an answer, and you find, if you look at the date, that it was perhaps the same day or the following day. The right hon. Gentleman, when he was making his very dramatic speech to the 'House, made great play about a rest-day, as if there was something that was unusual about these Government Departments having rest-days, but if he had read the passage on page 4 to the House fully, it would have been seen that what M. Guelfand said was: that as this was rest-day we could not take any action for the moment, but he would draw up his report at once and make inquiries as early as possible to-morrow morning. That was an interview which did not take place, I think, until the afternoon of the 12th March. The telegram says: Counsellor saw M. Guelfand this afternoon. So that the delay which was suggested so artfully in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman was a delay of a gentleman who was seen in the afternoon and who said he would at once draw up his report and would make inquiries first thing next morning. I very much doubt whether, even with the highly efficient Government offices in this country, we should exceed that in speed of replying to a request by an Ambassador. I only mention that because I think that, if one is going to look at this thing calmly and in an unexcited way, one has to remember the sequence of events. The first five telegrams contained in this White Paper are all of them dated the same day, the 12th March, and with complete propriety and exactly in accordance with what one would expect, the Ambassador in Moscow put to the Government certain questions, three in number, to be found at the top of page 4 of the White Paper, and asked that he might have as speedy a reply as possible. I am sure that everybody in the House agrees that it was a wise and a proper step for the Government to take to make those inquiries. Then telegram No. 5, the last of the telegrams, which, it must be remembered, was sent on the actual day upon which the arrests had been made, does, I think, show a tendency to jump at a pre-judgment, not only of the issue, but of the action that was taking place. The Ambassador says: While obviously His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom cannot deny the right of any sovereign Government to arrest suspected criminals, a right which they reserve to themselves"— which, of course, is perfectly true— conditions under the present reign of terror in this country are without parallel in Great Britain. It is inconceivable that Soviet Government can produce credible evidence of any criminal malpractice on the part of the company. Well, there may have been people at some time in this country who would have said precisely the same thing about people who, unfortunately, have done penal servitude since. I am sure that everybody in this House has a profound belief in the traditional honesty of Britishers, and I am sure that everybody in this House hopes as profoundly as I do that these men are absolutely innocent. But I think it is impossible for anybody to say, as regards any individual, that under no circumstances could he possibly be guilty, because that, after all, is what the Ambassador is reporting on the day of the arrest of these men, before he knows the charge. Before he knows anything at all about it, he is reporting that it is not credible, although he does say: There may conceivably be, of course, some minor question of insignificant douceurs, tipping or presents which might consequently be distorted into 'bribery.' It may be that other people regard that sort of thing as more serious than does the Ambassador. Be that as it may, I suggest to the House that this was a somewhat hasty judgment to take in this matter and when he proceeds to talk about permitting the trumping up of frivolous and fantastic accusations against a friendly and reputable British company. surely that was hardly a wise way in which to report what he at that time knew as regards the events that had occurred. That was replied to by the Foreign Secretary on the 13th March in telegram No. 6, where the right hon. Gentleman says: You should inform the Soviet Government that the British subjects arrested are all men of high standing"— That is a perfectly proper thing to inform the Soviet Government— and we are assured that they have done nothing whatever of an illegal nature. How could the Foreign Office here, on the 13th March, be assured by anybody that certain people in Moscow had done nothing illegal? It is quite obvious that the statement is one which can have no possible information behind it, and it is no doubt a way in which it was sought to put some pressure, quite legitimate pressure, at that stage upon the Soviet Government. The correspondence proceeds upon the same day with a number of telegrams passing from the Ambassador to the Foreign Secretary, and in telegram No. 8 an interview is recorded between M. Krestinski and the Ambassador. M. Krestinski there states that up to that time he had not obtained the information for which he had been asked, on that morning, presumably, or the previous afternoon. Eventually, on the same day, the 13th March, in telegram No. 12, the information which had been asked for on the previous day, the day when the offices had been closed, is sent, not only to the Ambassador, but by telegram to the Foreign Office here. It can hardly be said that that is an undue delay—one day of 24 hours in which to communicate the answers to the questions which had been asked by the Ambassador. On the same morning, the 13th, the Ambassador had put further questions, again quite proper questions, and the Soviet Government shortly afterwards answered those questions.

It was on that day that Mr. Monkhouse was released, and also Mr. Nordwall, and the Foreign Secretary has quite rightly drawn attention to document No. 13, in which the account is given by Mr. Monk-house, or by the Ambassador from Mr. Monkhouse, of what had taken place. I do not think that anybody in this House would say that it was a good way of acquiring information. We have had trouble in this country about prolonged examinations by the police, and there was a committee or a commission set up as a result of the trouble, but M. Litvinoff, whether he is right, or wrong, or wise, says that this system was carried out in this manner in order that Mr. Monkhouse might be released as quickly as possible. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Hon. Members may say "Oh," but they know quite well that the procedure in Russia is different from the criminal procedure here. It is much more allied to the procedure in certain other countries, where investigations are made by examining officials before the charges are actually drawn up.

Whether hon. Members think it good, bad, or indifferent, it is in fact the procedure in Russia. The investigation is made with the examination of the accused person before the charges are actually drawn up, and during that period the accused person is not allowed to communicate with a lawyer or any other person. That may be a thoroughly bad method. I am not suggesting whether it is good or bad, but it is the known method of Russia, and people who go to Russia know that if they are accused that is the way in which proceedings will be conducted. The remedy, of course, if you do not like it, is to stay out of Russia. But if that is the known judicial procedure of Russia, it is no ground for any interference because in a particular case the known judicial procedure is carried out as it has been done in this case. There is no suggestion of any sort throughout the White Paper that anything has been done as regards any of these persons other than, would be done to any other accused person in Russia. That, after all, is the absolutely fundamental basis of any interference, namely, that we must before interfering establish the position that something unusual, unfair and improper has been done to our nationals which would not be done to the ordinary person who has submitted himself to the jurisdiction of the Russian courts.

There follow a number of telegrams on the 14th March, none of which I think take the matter very much further, except the report of the Ambassador, No. 19, after he had seen those who were still in prison. It was on the 15th, the House will remember, that the Lord President of the Council made his statement to this effect: Moreover, as His Majesty's Government are convinced that there can be no justification for the charge on which the arrests were made, Sir Esmond Ovey has been instructed to represent in strong terms the grave view which they take of these proceedings against British subjects of high standing engaged in normal commercial pursuits to the benefit of both countries, and the unfortunate consequences to Anglo-Soviet relations which may follow."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th March, 1933; col. 1945, Vol. 275.] There does not seem to me to be anything in the White Paper which could entitle a Minister of the Crown to get up in this House and say that His Majesty's Government were convinced that there could be no justification for the charges. In fact, at that time one of the Ambassador's complaints was that the charges had not been fully formulated. I may remind the House that the full formulation of charges in this country often takes many weeks. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate, if he were here, would, I am sure, bear me out in what I say with regard to the Scottish Silks case. It was months after the arrest and release on bail of the Scottish Silks defendants before the charges were fully formulated. In this case, on the third day after the arrest, with no information of the charges precisely formulated, except that a general statement had been communicated, His Majesty's Government made a public statement in this House to the effect that there would be unfortunate consequences, which implied that these people must be released. If anything were more liable to make difficulties at that time, it is hard to imagine what it might be.

On the 16th March, the following day, we come to what I venture to suggest is the most extraordinary State document that has ever been published—the statement of what was said to the Soviet Ambassador. It is document No. 27. The House will have read the document, and I do not propose to read it all. Indignation in this country at the arbitrary arrest and harsh treatment of British subjects in Russia was growing, would grow, and would grow rightly. The House will remember that the Ambassador had stated that they had all been treated extremely well. Feeling was widespread that the allegations against these men were grotesque and hysterical; and that these arrests were a stage performance, and a very bad one at that"— [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members cheer that, but I should have thought that it was hardly the statement for a high official in the Foreign Office to make— mounted simply to disguise, by serving up scapegoats, the ill-success of certain industrial undertakings in Russia. Again a dignified protest might well have been made; it seemed hardly tactful at this stage to put it exactly in those words. Perhaps I need not read the rest, except the last paragraph. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Colonel Lawrence?"] I thought that hon. Members had read it, but I will certainly read it: The Soviet Government might say what they liked; but public opinion here would never look upon this performance in any other light. People recalled a trial some years ago, when. certain Russians had confessed that they had come over and plotted with Colonel Lawrence in England at a time when Colonel Lawrence—long since Aircraftman Shaw—was in India. I have heard witnesses in this country make even more ridiculous statements. Such absurdities were food for derision here. I will pass on to the last paragraph. [HON. MEMBERS: "Read the next!"] Public opinion was rightly determined that, whatever else was done, British subjects should not be cast for the role of victims in these heresy-hunts. I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I think that nobody would want or would allow any British subject to be cast for the role of victim in a heresy hunt, but unfortunately there is no evidence in this White Paper that any British subject is being cast for that role. To make such a statement when at this stage the actual accusation had not been elaborated, when preliminary inquiries were still proceeding, and it had not been finally settled whether they were going to be brought to trial or not, is hardly the way in which to get accommodation in a matter of considerable difficulty. If I have read everything that everybody wants me to read, let me now read the passage which I desire to read myself. The telegram says towards the end: What I was concerned with was to make it perfectly plain to his Excellency and to his Government how public opinion here viewed the matter, and to give him a warning of consequences that, in my judgment, could only be avoided by the early liberation of these unfortunate people. Again, that is a demand, whether it be wise or not, for the liberation without trial of persons who, in the ordinary course of justice, had been arrested and might or might not be put on their trial at that date in a foreign country. I venture to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, if that demand had been made by the Ambassador of the United States as regards a national of the United States in this country, he would have been the first person to resent it. There is no way out of that argument except by saying that we ought not to acknowledge Russia as an equal in the comity of nations. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] That is a view which I quite understand that hon. Members may take, but unfortunately it is too late. We have done it. We have acknowledged them. We have accepted their Ambassador and they have accepted ours, and so long as that position rules we have no right to demand that a. British subject, arrested in the due course of justice in Russia, should be liberated before the trial.

It may be that if injustices occur in the trial, if something occurs to show that they cannot get justice, then we shall be perfectly entitled to take reprisals. But the question before the House is: Are we entitled in the light of what is in the White Paper to interfere now by means of reprisals? It is idle to say that this Bill only gives power to the Government to interfere. So far as this House is concerned, it is authorising reprisals. The statement in document No. 27 is, I venture to suggest, as offensive a statement as could be made by an officer of a foreign office to an ambassador, and one which would be well calculated to arouse irritation in its most acute form, the very thing one would have thought that, when people were in jeopardy in Russia where, just as in this country, public opinion is an important factor in the safety of individuals—[Laughter.] If hon. Gentlemen think that it is not an important factor, this is an even more stupid statement to make. If it solely depends on the Government itself, clearly a statement of this sort is one that is likely to do more harm than good. Not a single condition of those which I have already stated is shown to have existed in this White Paper.

When the final interview which took place between the Ambassador and M. Litvinoff every one of the questions had been fully answered by the 16th March, two days after they had been asked. There was going to be a trial before the supreme court, it was going to be a public trial, there would be no right to have an English lawyer, as anyone might have guessed, to defend the accused, but that an English lawyer could attend like any other person. All the other questions were answered, and, indeed, it was stated on the 16th that the accusation was made under Article 58 of the Criminal Code. It had been defined up to that stage. Then threats of reprisals are made again in the interview. The next matter, so far as we know it, after the White Paper is the coming into the picture of that great internationalist the Dominions Secretary. He made a speech at Swansea on the 17th March, presumably with a full knowledge of the telegrams before him. Being a Cabinet Minister, he would not have spoken without that knowledge. He says: Public opinion in this country is satisfied that the men who have been arrested are respectable and harmless British subjects engaged in their normal commercial vocations. It seems absurd to suggest that the men should lend themselves to any measure calculated to destroy their own livelihood. That can be said of every person who commits a criminal offence. It is not understood here what motive underlies these arbitrary proceedings, but on one thing I think the whole country will agree—that the British subjects must not be made the objects of any shortcomings in official projects. The accusation was perfectly well known to the right hon. Gentleman at that date, if he had taken the trouble to study the telegrams that had been sent. He ends up by saying: We have already given abundant evidence of our anxiety not to interfere with Russia, however much we may disagree with her political aims"— I think everybody realised the right hon. Gentleman did that— but clearly it would be a profound mistake to assume that the relationship of a commercial and diplomatic character which is essential between two nations could be continued if our people were subjected to the petty tyranny and punishment, and, indeed, agonising mental strain, that these men are now undergoing. We may not believe in the system of justice in another country, we may think it falls far short of what it ought to be, but surely we are not entitled, when that other country is a great, equal country, to stigmatise its actions as petty tyranny. That is as far as the story goes so far as we know it, except that the statement has been published, either this morning or yesterday, that the whole of these men are now out on bail.

Sir J. SIMON

I merely interrupt in order to give information to the House. My information is that of the six Englishmen, five are out on bail, but the sixth, whose name, I think, is Mr. Macdonald, is still in custody. The Russians, who are also employés of the firm, are still in custody.

Sir S. CRIPPS

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I saw something in the paper, and I thought it said all had been released. A number of them are out and one remains in custody. Of course, one does not know what has happened as regards bail. Those being the circumstances of the case, I venture to suggest that no possible case has been made out here for action by reprisals, and indeed it is clear that if this were a case of action by any other country than Russia reprisals would not be taken or asked for. The right hon. Gentleman has told us frankly, indeed, that this Bill, although connected with the present circumstances, is not exclusively connected with them. That is a very sinister aspect. This Bill was apparently on the stocks, and has not been specifically produced because of what has happened in the last two or three weeks in Russia.

Sir J. SIMON

I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me to intervene. I know he would not wish to misrepresent me, but I think he has misunderstood, and therefore has misstated, what I said. I never said there was any other purpose behind this Bill than the one which we are discussing, but what I did say was that of course I recognised that the taking of powers which would have to do with imports and exports was not in its nature directly related to the subject of people being imprisoned in Russia, and I proceeded to justify that by inviting the House to tell me what more direct steps they would recommend us to take.

Sir S. CRIPPS

Naturally, I accept absolutely the right hon. Gentleman's correction, but I think my impression will be confirmed by the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow. No doubt it was a slip of the tongue on the part of the right hon. Gentleman, but whether the right hon. Gentleman said it or not, it does seem to us that these particular measures are something more than merely the inspiration of the moment. For a long time there has been a body of opinion in this country which has been trying to force the Government into taking exceptional measures against Russia on dumping and other matters. The hon. baronet opposite is constantly at it, spends all his time doing it.

Sir WILLIAM DAVISON

Asking for fair play for British trade.

Sir S. CRIPPS

This Bill has given a very great opportunity to those who have been so long advocating such Measures to get them hurriedly and quickly adopted, but I do hope that the Members of the House will look at this matter apart from that general consideration, and concentrate their minds upon this particular and grave issue. There is no doubt, as I have said already, that everybody desires to protect these men to the utmost of their ability having regard to the propriety of the circum- stances, but surely the House will realise that even for the men themselves it may be more dangerous to take hurried steps, to pass urgent Bills, than it would be to leave His Majesty's Government with the very ample powers which they already have. After all, if things came to such a pass that it was necessary to interfere or take reprisals, His Majesty's Government could always withdraw our Ambassador and send back the Russian Ambassador, and could take various other steps besides those of trade reprisals.

I venture to ask the Foreign Secretary whether, in view of the danger to the men and the possibility of this matter being dealt with on a friendly basis with the British Government, he does not consider that even yet it might be possible to avoid the passage of this Bill, anyway to avoid any possibility of anything happening under it? If only the longer and more sensible view can be taken, perhaps by both parties, who at the moment have got both nations into a state of excitement and hysteria which is just the sort of state which so often has led to war in the past, surely we as a House of Commons can treat this matter not as a lot of people who are excited but as a matter for calm deliberation. We ought to try to do what is, in the circumstances, the best thing to be done from the point of view of our relationships with Russia and the protection of these men, because I feel convinced that if we continue to pile up ill-feeling in Russia by the sort of statements that there are in the White Paper and by this sort of emergency action which is being taken to treat Russia in a way in which no country has ever been treated before, and by this House of Commons, we are seriously jeopardising not only all future relations with Russia but we are seriously jeopardising the fate of men who are still in their hands, and who it is for them to deal with and not for us. If by being more reasonable, and even by making a gesture at the last moment, anything can be done in that direction I hope the right hon. Gentleman will do it.

5.25 p.m.

Major HILLS

Until the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) came to the last words of his speech he never mentioned the fact that the lives of British subjects were at stake. Anybody listening to him would have imagined that his speech was simply a disquisition on international law which had resolved itself into an elaborate defence of the Soviet Government, who according to him had acted with perfect regularity not only in accordance with their own judicial system but in accordance with the comity of nations, an expression which the hon. and learned Gentleman often uses. His only criticisms were reserved for the British Ambassador, who tried to save the lives of these men, the Foreign Office, who quite rightly informed the Russian Ambassador of the feeling in this country, and for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. I will deal, first of all, with the question which the hon. and learned Gentleman put to me. He said that we had no right to intervene in this case. He did not read to the House dispatch No. 20, where our responsible officials at the Embassy in Moscow state that the prisoners gave the impression of having been "put through it" and were "obviously terrified of speaking and confined themselves to minimum of replies." Is there, then, not a case for some intervention? The Ambassador wrote: While I was of course received with utmost courtesy … the obsequiousness of the unfortunate prisoners and utterly artificial atmosphere of restraint created an uncanny impression. Is the hon. and learned Gentleman content to leave things exactly where they are as shown by that dispatch and to go on arguing his points of international law? But I will meet him even on international law. He says that there is no right in the British Government to intervene. Does he want to wait until those unfortunate men are shot? Does he know of no case which would demand intervention unless there had been some act of that sort? But I will not ask him that question, I will just meet him on pure law. He is a much greater lawyer than I am, but here he is "special pleading," and he knows it, defending the indefensible. If he had been attacking the Soviet Government he would have found very good reasons for blaming it and would have put them in far stronger language than I can. I will quote, first of all, an extract from Oppenheim on International Law: It is quite impossible to lay down hard and fast rules as regards the question in which way and how far in each case the right of protection ought to be exercised. Everything depends upon the merits of the individual case and must be left to the discretion of the State concerned. … An alien must in particular not be wronged in person or property by the officials and courts of a State. Thus, the police must not arrest him without just cause. I understand that the hon. and learned Gentleman would never intervene as long as our nationals were treated more or less as Russian nationals.

Sir S. CRIPPS

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman allow me to interrupt him? He has just read the words "without just cause." That means just cause in Russia. If he reads the passage right through in Oppenheim he will see that that is so.

Major HILLS

I will proceed with the quotation. We differ as to our conception of justice. The passage proceeds: Corrupt administration of the law against natives is no excuse for the same against aliens, and no Government can cloak itself with the judgment of corrupt judges. Corruption is one form of injustice and there are other forms, and if you can intervene in the case of a corrupt judgment, a fortiori you can intervene in the case of a procedure which breaks all the laws of natural justice. Surely the hon. and learned Gentleman must admit that. The matter does not rest there. The hon. and learned Gentleman read an extract from what was written by Sir Robert Phillimore, a very great name. The hon. and learned Gentleman stopped rather shorter than I am going to do. I am going to quote the passage which immediately follows the extract read by the hon. and learned Gentleman: As a general rule no objection to the form of procedure or the mode of administering justice in the courts of the country can found any such demand [i.e., a demand for reparation]. The foreigner should have considered these things before he entered into transactions in the country. Nevertheless, a plain violation of the substance of natural justice, e.g., refusing to bear the party or to allow him to call witnesses, would amount to the same thing as an absolute denial of justice. What else have we here? Men were arrested and carried off. One of them was examined from eight o'clock in one morning until three o'clock the next morning and the men were kept in prison without trial, and all that the hon. and learned Gentleman can say is: "What would you say if the United States intervened because you had acted improperly towards a prisoner?" It is a very common dialectical trick to compare the bad with the good. Justice in this country, and the procedure in any civilised country, either in America or in any civilised part of Europe, is not comparable with the procedure in Russia, and the two cases are not in pari materia. The hon. and learned Gentleman has far too acute a mind not to know that. He knows very well that his argument does not carry any weight whatever.

He went on to say that the Soviet Government have not done to those persons what they would not have done to a Russian. Does he think that that is sufficient answer? He could not have heard the Foreign Secretary say that 35 Russians had been shot. If they would shoot Russians, they would shoot Englishmen. It means that if it means anything. We have no right to intervene because they have not done to any of these persons what they would not have done to Russians, but we know what they did to Russians. They shot them without trial. The hon. and learned Gentleman went on to say that until we have exhausted all means of legal redress, and until a denial of justice is established, we again have no right to intervene. So we come back to this: The hon. and learned Gentleman accepts the Russian system as a system of justice, and until that system does something which even he says is a denial of justice, he does not want this country to intervene. Suppose that these men are put on trial for what is humorously called sabotage—I am sure there is no offence at all—suppose that for some charge which, in the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, would be a matter of small moment, the penalty is death, and suppose that these men are tried in a court which can condemn them to death for what he would regard as a trifling charge, at what point would the hon. and learned Gentleman intervene? At any point, or not at all?

Sir S. CRIPPS

It depends what the right hon. Gentleman means by "intervene." As I have already stated, I consider that all the action taken by the Ambassador is perfectly proper, but, when there is a threat to have reprisals if these men are not liberated before trial, then comes in the objection that that is not, in my view, action in accordance with the comity of nations.

Major HILLS

Then the hon. and learned Gentleman would not intervene until these men have been shot? No case exists for intervention until these men have been shot? The hon. and learned Gentleman talks a lot about the comity of nations. I suppose that he would go on talking until the men were shot and that he would then talk to the Russians afterwards about the comity of nations. I do not want to use—but I will not say what I was going to say. Does the hon. and learned Gentleman think that it is any good talking to people who shoot 35 Russians?

Sir S. CRIPPS

If the right hon. Gentleman wants to know my view, it is that if I thought that a State was incapable of justice, or of running its internal affairs, I should cease to have any relations or communication with that State.

Major HILLS

The hon. and learned Gentleman would cease to issue passports to Russia?

Sir S. CRIPPS

Certainly.

Major HILLS

In view of what has happened would the hon. and learned Gentleman break off all relations with Russia?

Sir S. CRIPPS

Not in view of what has happened. I do not take the view that Russia is so wholly devoid of civilisation. I say that if I did take that view I would have nothing to do with that State, and that I would withdraw ambassadors.

Sir W. DAVISON

They obtained recognition on a false pretext.

Major HILLS

This is a matter which may end in the death of English subjects. When would the hon. and learned Gentleman regard Russia as so barbaric that there was a right to intervene? I have had no satisfactory answer to my question.

Sir S. CRIPPS

If the right hon. Gentleman wants me to keep on getting up I will try to satisfy him. If the Russian system is a system of justice, as I accept, and if they have a crime the penalty of which is death, then the person who is guilty of that crime must be put to death, just as a Russian in this country, if he has done a murder, will be hanged. The course of justice will be carried out, unless the prerogative of mercy is exercised.

Major HILLS

When the hon. and learned Gentleman is in a difficulty he always slips back to comparing Russian justice with justice in this country. He knows perfectly well that they are incomparable.

Sir S. CRIPPS

No, they are not.

Major HILLS

He always assumes, and puts up, as a dialectical smoke screen, that there is a system of justice in Russia. He knows very well that there is none. He knows very well that behind all this parade of talk about the comity of nations, all these quotations from a legal writer, lies the peril of these men. We have had to take action to save them. He does not direct his acute intelligence to that point. At the end of his speech, in a mere aside, he said that it might be that the plan that he and his friends advocated was a better plan in the interests of the men than the plan of the Government. His speech was throughout directed to one object, and that was to save the face of Russia. He did not say one word which showed any appreciation of the human factor underlying all this verbiage. Great Ministers in the past have said that a British subject has special claims upon protection from a British Government. Our great statesmen have made speeches that are still quoted on that subject. I remember reading when I was a boy a speech by Lord Palmerston, which I am told lasted from dusk to dawn while the House of Commons sat entranced all through. All that means nothing to the hon. and learned Gentleman. He is not concerned with the safety of a British subject; all he is concerned with is to show that something which is put up in Russia, and which really is a branch of the executive government in Russia, is comparable to the system of justice as understood by the European Powers.

I must apologise to the hon. and learned Gentleman if I have spoken with considerable heat. It happens that the wife of one of the men is a constituent of mine. I saw the lady last Saturday, and anything more pitiable can hardly be imagined than the fate of a wife in that condition. I promised to do all I could with the small power that a back bencher has in this House, to see that the Government took strong action, but I should have felt the same if I had not seen that lady. Being brought right up against the human factor reinforced the feeling which I have tried to express to-night. I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman will congratulate himself when, in a calmer moment, he reads the measured words with which he praises the Soviet Government, and the vindictive way in which he attacks the Foreign Office, and attacks our Ambassador in Russia. I believe that he has defended a case which he himself, in his better mind, knows to be indefensible, and I think that, when he comes to consider it, he will agree with me.

5.45 p.m.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I believe this to be the most momentous Debate in which I have taken part since I entered the House of Commons over 10 years ago. I am taking part in it in order to do what I possibly can to get peace. I would like the present Prime Minister to face this situation in the same manner in which he faced it in 1924, when he was Prime Minister of the first Labour Government. He then said to Russia, "Let us shake hands and be friends, and we will discuss trade agreements and so on afterwards." That is the spirit in which I am entering upon this Debate. I find nothing in the White Paper which would justify the taking of extreme measures by anyone, as far as I am able to judge.

I would like to say a word to the Russians. I have never been in Russia. Although time and again they have gone out of their way to try to get me to go to Russia, I, with my colleague and comrade, the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), have systematically refrained from going to Russia, so that it could never be said to us that we had got any concession from Russia, or were in any way in the pay of Russia. But, although I have never been to Russia, I have been in close contact with men who have carried out very big operations in Russia for the last 30 years. The firm with which I worked, Beardmore and Company, put down the first plate mill to roll sheet plates for shipbuilding and so on, 30 years ago, and it is still the best tool that is working in Russia. The last Russian Ambassador in London told me himself that that was one of the reasons why Russia was so anxious to trade with this country—because, so far as engineering was concerned, no country supplied them with such good material as we did. We sent men out there at that time. My own manager in Beardmore's at that time was out there for six months putting down that plant. Since then I have been in contact with a great many people of that kind, and only last week I had an interview as a result of which I went and saw the Foreign Secretary on the question of negotiating a huge contract for heavy machinery—the very thing that I am moving Heaven and earth to get, because I am speaking here on behalf of 250,000 engineers in this country, of whom 30 per cent. are unemployed. It means a great deal to us to continue the trade agreement with Russia.

I want, with your permission, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to speak to the Russians for a minute. We do not know what has gone wrong here; we do not know what these technicians and leading hands who have been supervising jobs out there are really charged with; but I do know, from men who have been out there, that the great difficulty they have is with the ignorance of the Russians. It abounds. That is the great difficulty that our men have to face, and they face it well; and, moreover, every one of them pays compliments to the Russians for the way in which they stand by them when they are up against difficulties owing to the ignorance of the labour that they have to employ.

I understand it is said that something went wrong with some turbines. Here is my own experience in one of the world-famous engineering shops in the Clyde—there is none more famous. It occurred with one of the first turbines that we built. It was built with every care, by workmen than whom there were none finer in the land, men accustomed to that class of work, and every one of them a loyal servant of the firm. The turbine was started. What happened? B-r-r-r-r. The blades stripped; every blade in the turbine went. It was not ignorant Russians who did that job; it was Scottish engineers, the best engineers in the world. They stripped the casing, and took out the shaft. All the blades were lying in the bottom of the casing, and, when they took them out, they discovered that a ⅞-inch spanner had been left in the casing by mistake. That meant £5,000 gone. But that is not a