Mr. HAYDAY

I beg to move, at the end of the Question, to add the words But regret dint, in view of the disaster to British trade and of the large number of persons unemployed, there is no indication that the Government are prepared to recognise and deal effectively with the causes of unemployment, or to provide the opportunity for useful productive work for the people of this country; and further, in view of the exhaustion of national funds provided for the assistance of local authorities and the approaching cessation of unemployment insurance benefit, regrets that there is no indication of any intention on the part of the Government to grant substantial financial aid to local authorities who cannot be expected to bear a national burden. In reading through the Speech from the Throne one finds very meagre reference to the appalling disaster that has overtaken a large portion of the community, and which has been with us far too long without any serious attempt being made to evolve something approaching a permanent solution of our difficulties. The only reference one finds in His Majesty's Speech is in these words: The great and continued volume of unemployment among my people causes me the deepest concern and will continue to receive the arnest attention of my Ministers. The only remedy for this distressing situation is to be found in the appeasement of international rivalries and suspicion and in the improvement of the conditions under which trade is carried on all over the world. I suggest that is simply a reference that waives aside the intention of His Majesty's Ministers to do anything at all. In an earlier paragraph in the Speech we find something that gives us cause for very grave alarm, and leads us to believe that His Majesty's Ministers are not paying attention to alleviating distress more effectively or assisting to promote trade so as to absorb the unfortunate unemployed, but, that their activities will be on the lines of closing up avenues of employment rather than opening them wider. The paragraph to which I refer says: Every effort has been made to reduce public expenditure to the lowest possible limit, regard being had alike to the security and efficiency of the State, to public obligations and to the necessity of relieving our citizens to the utmost extent from the burdens which now rest heavily upon thorn. Retrenchment upon so great a scale must necessarily involve hardship to individuals, and the postponement of public hopes. Further, it goes on to say that economy must be practised by all and each, calling, as in the Speech from the Throne last year, for greater sacrifices. For the section of the community upon whose shoulders is placed the greatest burden legislation was introduced so far back as 1911, and in 1920 that legislation was enlarged to bring a still greater section within its scope. The longer the period of unemployment, the greater and the more intensified is the suffering of those who can appeal for relief tinder the Act. But there is far too large a number excluded from the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Act, and for whom very little, if any, provision has been made at all. The Prime Minister, in a sixteen-column speech in answer to criticisms of the Speech from the Throne, devotes less than half-a-column to this question of unemployment, and to those who are at the moment in distress even that half-column reads like a message of despair, on account of the grandiose manner, such as only the Prime Minister is capable of using, in which he dismisses any criticism that the Government has not done anything on a very great scale. In reply to my right hon. Friend, the Member of Platting (Mr. Clynes) the Prime Minister said: He quoted some words of mine about the men who so gallantly fought for us in the War, when I said we were in honour hound not to see them starve as long as there was a crust in the national cupboard. Let me point out what we have done. We are spending at the present moment at the rate of over 100,000,000 a year in provision for the unemployed. There is a great deal of crumb in addition to the crust there in that £100,000,000."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th February, 1922; col. 43, Vol. 150.] To whom did the Prime Minister refer when he said: We are spending at the rate of £100,000,000 per annum in relief of unemployment. Did he mean to convey that the State was spending this £100,000,000? If he intended that, it is a total misrepresentation of the real facts. If that be the annual expenditure, the State pays only one-fifth of that total. The workpeople and the employers pay the remainder. If we go a little further back we could put it in this way, in the Minister of Labour's own words during the debate on 15th June, 1921: Let me conclude with a rough forecast balance sheet for the insurance year July, 1921—July, 1922"— that is the year to which I assume the Prime Minister was referring the day before yesterday— based on the assumption that throughout that period there will be an average of 1,250,000 insured persons unemployed. On the income side I should hope to get in the year contributions from workpeople 13¾ millions, employers 154 millions, the State 7⅓millions."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th June, 1921; col. 461, Vol. 143.] That is the real proportion of the State's direct contribution.

The MINISTER of LABOUR (Dr. Macnamara)

Through the Insurance Act.

Mr. HAYDAY

Well, I cannot see any provision for the relief of unemployment where the Prime Minister could find the difference to make up the total of £100,000,000 as the State's direct contribution, because, as I hope to be able to show later, the State has rather restricted operations to the local authorities. What one may say is that the State, as a third partner under the Act, gets off with one-fifth of the responsibility and puts twofifths—near enough—on to the shoulders of the employés, and two-fifths on the employers. If £100,000,000 be the joint contributions of the State and the other contributions under the Unemployment Act, and represents the full amount in either relief work or unemployment funds, then let me point out that the State has not even in that respect fulfilled the obligation which it ought to have fulfilled in dealing with the problem. Why?

First of all we must remember the great cry that went forth last year that, if you (the workmen) will suffer reductions in wages you will at once help to revive trade, and by your sacrifice of a few shillings per week help to absorb many of your unfortunate unemployed comrades." [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] An hon. Member says "hear, hear," but what are the facts? Take two or three of the principal industries of the country. The Government killed the coal export trade. The Government destroyed the market, and as soon as they destroyed it, they cut away from their joint responsibility with the other partners. Having thrown industry out of gear, so to speak, and put many thousands of operatives on to the unemployed market, having brought about a state of affairs like that, they went on from one blunder to another, and their policy has been similar throughout most of the principal industries of the country. Go to mining. Nobody can say to-day that it is a question of miners' wages that cripples their industry. [An HON. MEMBER: "They have no wages!"] If the miners asked for no wages, there would still be an outcry for the maintenance of the mines, all the overhead charges, and so on, and you would not hope to revive that industry, not to any substantial extent, or sufficiently to enable to react with beneficial results on the industries so immediately dependent upon coal. I suppose that if one pit is in full working—and I should hope my miner friends will rather develop this point in order that the public as well as the House may know the position—if one pit is working under a syndicate which has five other pits closed, with all the running and establishment charges of the six, and all these have to be carried on the output of the one, one can quite see that no matter what the miners sacrifice in wages the industry cannot carry that heavy burden—as in this case of carrying five idle pits on the one that is working. Nor would there be any satisfaction there from the point of view of reducing the cost of this commodity.

Take the iron and steel industry at the moment, and consider the contributions of the workpeople in those industries. They have suffered reductions of 32s. 6d. and 33s. 6d. per week during the last 9 or 10 months. After all their sacrifices, how- ever, the strange fact remains that every week brings us news of the closing down of more iron and steel furnaces. [HON. MEMBERS "Not now!"] Well, let hon. Members realise this: This week or by next Tuesday, there is a group of blast furnaces belonging to the Stanton Iron Works Company, where the men are receiving a fortnight's notice of the closing down of furnaces at Alfreton and Riddings for a period of three months. It is stated that the stocks of pig-iron are sufficiently large to warrant this. Throughout the country, and at the moment, there is less than 20 per cent. of the steel and iron furnaces in blast as compared with the highest point previously reached. That is a fact. Orders are not coming in. What is the effect of this, of all these sacrifices that have been suffered? They have not contributed much towards the resuscitation of trade or the absorption of one solitary unemployed worker, because, indeed, the figure of the unemployed has a tendency to increase. You have, roughly, 2,000,000 unemployed to-day. The figures for the end of January showed an advance over the December period I think there has beer, just a little fluctuation latterly, but practically the position becomes worse. You are heading for the breakers faster now than ever before in this matter of unemployment.

Here is one effect. You diminish the purchasing power of the operative in work who is sacrificing more than his quota in the attempt to reabsorb into the industry his less fortunate fellow workmen. But he has not accomplished it. He has reduced his own standard of living. He has had taken from him the possibility of making additional sacrifices similar to those he has been making during the past 12 months; of the contribution from his earnings through the channels of the union, or his own individual helping of the lame dog over the stile. That avenue is closed, and in several cases the employed man himself has a standard not very much better than the man who finds himself unemployed. All these things, to my mind, are the result of the rather false policy that this Government has been carrying out. I should rather imagine that for incompetence during the last four years in dealing with the industrial life of this country it would be very difficult to find—I do not refer to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, because, whilst he has control as head of the Department, unfortunately he is not the initiator of policy, for policies belong to the Cabinet—it would be very difficult to find a worse record. I do not know a Cabinet that could possibly be found under any circumstances that would display, I will not say greater callousness, but greater incompetence or less foresight in dealing with a problem of this sort than the present Ministers of the King. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members agree to that suggestion of incompetence, but from a very different point of view. Their policies are quite different to the policy that I would initiate, and whether your policy would not be more reactionary than the policy of the present Cabinet remains to be seen, but I fear so. Anyhow, the present policy is bad enough in all conscience.

We believe in working for the State as a whole and not for that section that has vested interests in it. We believe in defending and sustaining the weak in our industrial world, whereas other hon. Members would send them to blazes and damnation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh," and "No, no!"] We believe in fighting against the vested interests which have become fastened upon the constitution of the country. [An HON. MEMBER: "What would you do?"] Unfortunately we represent an unfortunate community about whom we are talking now, and that is the people who have been done so often by the people who ask these questions as to what we would do. I want further to call the attention of the House to what this Amendment says in respect of some other matters. I refer to the Unemployed Workers' Dependents Act. I think we have the right to get an answer or some indication as to what is really meant in the passage of His Majesty's Speech which refers to further cuts; whether some other steps a-re going to be taken that will deal with its continuance from the operatives' point of view from the date of the present Act. It is well to remember that from March, 1921, till the present time, sections of the workpeople of this country, numbering many thousands, have not performed, or have not had the opportunity to perform, a solitary day's work in that period, and in respect of those who were successful in getting an extension of 6 weeks. Two months' interval elapsed before they come down to the new period on 3rd November, 1921. They are still unemployed, and the period of their benefit finishes on the 22nd of the present month—that is the first 16 weeks of it. The Act says that the Minister may extend the benefit for a further period of 6 weeks. If that extension is going to be tightened up, as an attempt was made to tighten it up last year, when many thousands were denied that extension, if there is to be an elimination of many thousands more from the enjoyment of that extended 6 weeks period, it means that there are workmen and workwomen in this country who have been unemployed since March of last year and who from the 22nd of the present month will have all sources of income closed to them until the commencement of the new period in July. That is a gap and a margin too wide to contemplate. This leaving of large bodies of workmen, after a long period of unemployment without any provision at all for sustenance, is as bad as it can be.

The operations of the Unemployed Workers' Dependants Act cease in May. There appears to be no immediate prospect of trade lifting at all, rather the tendency is that it will remain bad for many months. I would urge that the Government, so far from commencing to cut with their economy axe at the provisions made for unemployment, should seek, so far as they possibly can, to see to what, extent they will be able to supplement it. Hon. Members will do well to keep in mind that we on these Benches are no more supporters of the principle of dole-paying than anybody else. If the £100,000,000 which has been paid for unemployment benefit had been provided for useful work, and some additional grant provided for the residue that could not be absorbed, it would have been much better for the State, even though the State had spent another £50,000,000 or £60,000,000 on the top of that £100,000,000. Why? Much is sometimes heard of the physique of the ironstone miner and the blast furnace-man, men who have to wheel barrows with loads of anything up to 12 cwt. or 13 cwt. But their physique is not the same to-day as it was. Yet, when that industry is ready to reabsorb, it will reabsorb, men who are much weaker and certainly 25 per cent. less efficient than they were when originally thrown out of employment. I hope that that degree of depreciation will not be allowed to set in at any greater rate, and I trust we shall do our best to try and recover.

There is another section of workpeople for whom I hope the Minister will be able to do something, and that is the large body known as outworkers. There are 2,000,000 people registered for unemployment benefit. I do not know whether that means they are receiving the benefit, but if it does, then it means that there are hundreds of thousands of others who might register if they had the opportunity of receiving some unemployment benefit. There must be many thousands of these workers, and I think they should he included under the insurance Acts. You will find these outworkers in almost every city and town. They come under the lowest minimum wage, and all through their distress there is nothing for them but the guardians. Hon. Members know that in some districts boards of guardians are more sympathetic and generous than in others, and yet there are many boards of guardians to-day making allowances so small and insignificant that they scarcely amount to the rent obligation of the applicant. I hope something will he done for this class of the community.

Another important point I desire to raise is in regard to the assistance given to the local authorities. I believe that that is one of the ways open to us in which, whatever expenditure is called for, will show a more useful return than anything else. Many of these local authorities have been restricted in their operations. I know that when the ratio of 60 per cent. of the wages bill was fixed under the Lord St. David's Scheme and the condition that only 75 per cent. of the standard rate should be paid to those employed upon this particular work. I know that this work in some towns and cities has been restricted in consequence, and I want to urge the Government, not only to increase their assistance to local authorities to execute really useful work in their areas, but I urge that greater facilities and encouragement should be given to the small towns, rural areas, and villages. Many towns are in a better revenue raising position than most of the rural areas, and yet it does not follow that every rural area is necessarily an agricultural area. If you go through the vast iron ore fields all round Northamptonshire, Rutland, Leicestershire and Lincolnshire, and up in the North you will find large bodies of hefty and strong men without any work or not earning sufficient to retain their physical energies. These men are willing and anxious to undertake any work that might come that way rather than receive the dole, and if anything can be done in this direction by increasing facilities for work under public authorities, I hope it will be done. It has been suggested that there is going to be a severe cut in this grant to local authorities, and that less of these facilities will be available for local authorities to take advantage of in the futures I understand that very soon these schemes will lapse, and that no new schemes will be entertained. The limited amount at the disposal of these committees is certainly very nearly absorbed, and there is very little hope of further assistance in that direction.

In view of the scant way in which this great problem is mentioned in the King's Speech, which calls for greater sacrifices, in view of the vulgar display of wealth one witnesses upon certain occasions on the one hand, and then the suggested attempts to cut down the assistance to these people who ought to have their allowances added to, I think a greater message of hope ought to have come through the lips of His Majesty to the country. I think Ministers ought to pay more attention to this matter, and they should make some real effort in the direction of assisting trade to recover itself. I know that questions dealing with our internal problems will be discussed during this Debate. We have heard something about an offer of £15,000,000 worth of shipping work being put forward by Russia to our shipbuilders provided that some guarantee of credit could be extended to them by the State, and this would enable those ships built here to carry cargoes of necessary goods from here to Russia. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who made that statement"] The statement was made here in London in the presence of shipowners only the day before yesterday, when we were discussing wages, and there was no denial of the statement then. Unless my hon. Friend knows more about shipping than those who claim to represent the shipbuilding industry from the employers' point of view I certainly must believe that there is something in the matter mentioned, to the extent that if extended credits could be conceded to Russia she would have placed shipping orders to the extent of £15,000,000 with this country, and that would have absorbed a considerable amount of unemployment.

The Minister of Labour is largely bound by the policy of the Cabinet, but I am hopeful that this matter will be dealt with in a much more serious way than by merely waving it aside and sending out further messages of hope to the people to hang on a little longer. I hope the Government will decide to make some arrangement to cover the break in these allowances from the 22nd of February to next July, and I trust they will also do something in the direction of extending the dependants' allowances beyond the period of the present Act. I urge also that soma, more encouragement should be given to the local authorities to go on with useful work in order to absorb some of the ever-increasing body of unemployment in this country.

Mr. NAYLOR

In rising to second this. Amendment, may I claim the indulgence usually accorded to a Member speaking in this House for the first time? Coming, as I do, from the controversial platform of a bye-election, I find it somewhat difficult to accustom myself to the more subdued atmosphere of the House of Commons. I have been convinced during the short period I have been a Member that it does not appear to make very much difference what arguments are brought forward on either side of the House on any question in regard to their effect upon the opinions of hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, and, where older Members fail to succeed in this respect, I cannot hope to do any better. At least, I may be permitted to express the views I hold in supporting the Amendment now before the House. I could not help thinking when I heard the Speech from the Throne read that there was something lacking in the references that were made to this great tragedy of unemployment. They seem to me to be somewhat cold and indifferent references to a matter that concerns so many of the people that we on this side of the House represent. They say that "the matter is still receiving the serious attention of His Majesty's Government," but that overlooks the fact that the Government have been giving the subject serious attention for three years without any tangible policy emerging from that consideration, and it seems to me to indicate very clearly that the Government as a matter of fact have no policy at all.

In that respect I differ from my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment when he referred to the "somewhat false policy of the Government in relation to unemployment. I have long since come to the conclusion that the Government have no policy, that they are banking on the future, and hoping that the course of international trade may revive in the near future and save them from the necessity of having to account for their inactivity during the past three years.

My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment made special reference to the results that would accrue from any change that might be made in the payment of unemployment benefit. I want the Government to realise, if they can, what would have happened in this country supposing there had been no trade unions to stand between the working classes of the country and the revolution which would undoubtedly have broken out had it not been for the fact that the trade unions were looking after their own members in times of stress and thereby saved the country from disturbance time and time again. That provision is made out of the hard-earned wages of men and women who are now taxing themselves voluntarily and out of sympathy with their fellows to the extent of 5s., 6s., and even 7s. per week. If they are to he told to-day that the Government contemplate a reduction in the insurance benefit it seems to me it will show that the Government are running away from responsibilities which they ought to assume without any hesitation whatever.

May I make one reference to what I consider to be a very vital cause of part of the unemployment now existing? The Postmaster-General has been justly criticised for increasing postal rates to the extent he has done. We who represent the workmen are constantly being told that what is wanted to-day to improve trade is, if possible, to reduce the cost of production. There are some of us who agree and some who disagree with that advice, but we are all bound to admit that the advice is economically sound. If you want to increase the demand for goods, and therefore the demand for the labour which makes those goods, it becomes obvious that the cheaper the goods can be made the greater will be the demand for them. Yet what do we find? We find a Minister has increased the postal rates and placed a new burden upon what I may call a nerve centre of the trade of this country. The right hon. Gentleman in charging an extra ½d. postage for circulars has himself increased the cost of the production of those circulars to the extent of nearly 100 per cent. Of what use, is it for us on our part to advise our men to do what they can to produce more when they can turn round and tell us that the Postmaster-General himself has increased the cost of production in the printing trade, so far as it affects circulars and catalogues, by 100 per cent.? The right hon. Gentleman has already told us that he has done this because he has to make his Department pay. Let me remind the Minister for Labour that the Postmaster General is making his Department pay at the expense of the Ministry of Labour. He has by increasing postal rates and depressing trade put men out of employment, and the revenue that in consequence goes to the Post Office is actually drawn at the expense of the Ministry of Labour. These are facts which our men know, and I suggest to the Government that they ought to harmonise the policies of their various Departments in such a way that they shall not act obviously unfairly and injuriously to the trade of the country.

My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment said he thought that the present state of trade would continue for several months. I suppose it is dangerous for a new Member to prophesy as to what is likely to emerge from the present chaotic condition of industry. But I am hold enough to make a prophecy this afternoon, and I suggest that trade will not improve for twelve months, and possibly for two or three years. The Government itself cannot see a wary out of the present industrial chaos and confusion, and it is the absence of policy on the part of the Ministry that is causing our people throughout the country to rise in anger against a Government responsible to the people of the country which cannot carry out the responsibilities the people have a right to expect them to undertake. The reason why the Government are unable to adopt a policy, or, having adopted a policy, are unable to carry it out, seems very clear. It is, that if they attempted to provide capital for the institution of work that would interfere with vested interests in the country, and because of interference with vested interests the support usually accorded to them would be withdrawn. I could not help thinking during the discussion which took place yesterday, when we were speaking of the desirability of the Labour party being placed in power, that if we had the courage to compare results we should find that a Labour Government would be prepared, if it had behind it a sufficient number of Members, to do what the Coalition Government cannot do to-day. We shall be told there is no capital whereby industry can be started by a Government, that taxation is too high, and that the taxable limit has already been reached throughout the country. Yet when a prospectus is issued for the subscription of new capital by the Anglo-Persian Oil Co., the amount asked for is subscribed over and over again. And why? There is plenty of capital today that might be used for the starting of work, but it could not be so used and at the same time yield a profit that would compare with the profit from investments of the character I have just mentioned.

What would be the difference between a Coalition Government in power and a Labour party in power? A Coalition Government are not prepared to use capital for the purpose of starting productive work, but a Labour party would have no such scruple and would be prepared to use the taxes that they imposed for the purposes of good government. Part of that good government surely is the provision of work for men and women who cannot now get it. We should not be quite so much concerned about the interests of the private employer and of the private capitalist, perhaps, as would a Coalition Government, but we should be more concerned with the interests of the population of this country, 20 per cent. of whom are to-day living in a state of semi-starvation on the amount that they receive from unemployment insurance and Poor Law relief. I hope that the Government will try to find a policy even if they run the risk of being told once more that the policy they are adopting is a policy already advocated by the Labour party. They have done that before several times. Let them try to do it again in connection with this important question of unemployment. The peace of the country demands it. The time is coming when this country may no longer be the workshop of the world, when the course of trade will change and when we shall be thrown back more upon our own resources than we have been during the past 100 years. It behoves us to take whatever steps may be necessary to prevent the depression of trade getting worse and to protect the interests of the large number of men and women who to-day are crying out for help and who are asking the Government to come to their assistance. On those grounds I hope to receive the support of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite for the Amendment which I have much pleasure in seconding.

5.0 P.M.

Dr. MACNAMARA

We have just entered on a new year and a new Session of Parliament, and unemployment, grave and persistent, is still with us. The House has listened to the speeches of the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment to the Address with close attention and with solicitude for the problem with which my hon. Friends have dealt. The Seconder addressed us for the first time. I congratulate him upon his presentation of his case—lucid, eloquent and to the point, even if I have to deny myself the very great pleasure of concurrence with all his views. If I may say so, the Mover very well deserves the choice of his party as their spokesman in this important Debate. We, here know him and have known him as a sincere, straightforward advocate of his cause and a loyal and tireless representative of his fellow workmen. I regret that for a brief moment he was betrayed into an unnecessarily vigorous expletive. As I have said, unemployment, grave and persistent, continues with us. The depression began to develop, as the House knows, 17 months ago. The dispute in the coal industry gravely accentuated the situation. By the end of June of last year we touched bottom with well over 2,000,000 people wholly unemployed and over 1,000,000 on short time. Then came a steady and continuous trickle of improvement. By the end of November the unemployment figures stood at 1,833,000 wholly unemployed and 265,000 on short time. Christmas activities kept us at these better figures, but when those activities ceased, and many establishments closed for extended holidays over Christmas and the New Year, there was a material set-back. On 10th January we had 1,933,000 persons registered as wholly unemployed and 316,000 on short time During the last three weeks we have pulled forward again slightly. At the end of January the figures were 1,904,300 wholly unemployed and 280,000 on short time. But, although there has been that slight upward and continuous movement during these last few weeks, as yet there is no break on a wider front. At every point of advance our merchants and traders are still met and arrested, in common with those of other nations, by the dislocation and the devastation of the greatest smash-up in human history. The War has left the whole mechanism of international trade in ruins and on the scrap heap, and heavy taxation, the direct heritage of the War, acids another to the many factors which hamper recovery. The result is that the gravity and duration of the depression are unparalleled in our modern history.

Those are the facts as briefly as I can put them. The implication of the Amendment is that, if the Government had only done this, and if the Government had only done that, things would be in a vastly better and happier condition to-day. That is clearly the implication. It is so simple and so easy to say that; but let the man who lays down the proposition reckon himself lucky that it is not his job. I can honestly say that we have worked double tides at this problem, the gravest of the welter of problems thrown up by the Great War. I do not claim—

Colonel WEDGWOOD

You have been doing the wrong things.

Dr. MACNAMARA

I do not claim that we are infallible, because I well know that infallibility is the peculiar prerogative of the Front Opposition Bench at all times and in all circumstances. One would almost imagine that we in this country alone are suffering, and suffering through the incompetence of an incapable Government. My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas) was, I venture to think, very much nearer the mark when in this House on 20th October he said: There is no short simple remedy. If the Labour party, or any other section of the House, were sitting on the Government Benches we could not get up and say that, with the world position as it is, there is one short simple remedy for this problem.

Sir FREDERICK YOUNG

It is a question which a Queensland Labour Government have answered.

Dr. MACNAMARA

I am quoting my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby. He went on: It would only deceive the unemployed to say that. Far better for us to face the cold, hard facts. In the first place, it is not a local problem; it is not a national problem; it is an international problem, and no one Government on its own responsibility can solve the problem, although, incidentally, a Government can contribute to its solution."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th October, 1921; col. 386, Vol. 147.] Look abroad. France and Germany, it is true, present exceptional features. In France there is a great absorption of labour in the devastated areas; there is the larger number of men in her standing army; there is the widespread system of peasant proprietorship; and, as a result of this last factor, the economic structure, if I may so put it, of the country is such that town and country are much more mutually self-sufficing and self-assisting than is the case with us. The case of Germany, too, is peculiar. She can manufacture for export at prices which, in terms of foreign exchanges, give her a very great advantage. In the United States, however, although there is no percentage of unemployment computed for the whole country, in the typical manufacturing State of Massachusetts 21.2 per cent. of trade union members are unemployed. In Denmark the trade union percentage is 20.8, in Sweden 28.6, in Holland 17, and in Norway 15.1; while in Switzerland there are no less than 43 per cent. wholly unemployed, with a further 30 per cent. on short time, in the greatest of the Swiss industries, watch making. Our trade union figure is 16.5 per cent. at this time. The figures, of course, are not altogether comparable, but they do afford evidence of the worldwide incidence of the existing industrial depression. I do not doubt that if my right hon. and hon. Friends opposite were members of the Legislatures of the several countries to which I have here referred, they would promptly get up and tell the respective Government Benches what they thought of them, as they have told us.

There is a complaint, in the early part of the Amendment, that "there is no indication that the Government are prepared to recognise and deal effectively with the causes of unemployment"; and the presence of that complaint strikes me as a little curious, standing as it does in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Widnes Mr. A. Henderson). I am sorry that he is not here. I have no doubt that he would remember Christmas Day, 1920, when, at the invitation of the Prime Minister, he and my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir A. Smith) and myself met together at 10, Downing Street, to see what could be done by way of making further provision for the alleviation of distress consequent upon unemployment. Our idea at that meeting on Christmas Day, 1920, was that a representative committee of employers and Labour representatives should be set up for the purpose of assisting us, and I had some correspondence with my right hon. Friend in the endeavour to fix up the matter. My right hon. Friend insisted, on behalf of the Labour party, that such a committee must be commissioned to go into causes as well as the problem of finding palliatives. We pointed out that the immediate problem, the alleviation of distress, was very urgent indeed, and that a committee charged to consider causes would take a long time—

Colonel WEDGWOOD

Hear, hear!

Dr. MACNAMARA

But let me finish my story—and that a committee competent to deal with the one problem of causes might not necessarily be a competent committee to deal adequately with the other. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend—and I make no complaint—was adamant upon the point that we must inquire into causes. Finally, I wrote to say, "Very well, go into causes by all means; but, as the immediate problem, the alleviation of distress, presses, let us have an interim report on the immediate remedies." I should like to quote the terms of reference of the proposed Com- mittee of Inquiry which I then put forward to my right hon. Friend. They were:

  1. "(1) To consider and report upon the causes that have led to the present unemployment, and to make recommendations thereon.
  2. (2) To consider and report within one month upon the schemes now in operation for meeting the hardships of the present unemployment and to make recommendations as to their adequacy; and, if found to be inadequate, to make recommendations for their improvement.
  3. (3) To consider and report within three months how far it may be feasible for each industry or group of industries to develop schemes of insurance against unemployment beyond that provided by the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1920."
In sending that letter on 7th January, 1921, I really did think that I gave my right hon. Friend everything that he asked for; but what was the result? My right hon. Friend, as Secretary of the Labour party, had to tell me that it was unanimously agreed not to accept appointment to the Committee; they would have a Committee of their own. I do not believe in recrimination—it does not help; but, in view of the terms of the early part of this Amendment, which makes the complaint that we are doing nothing to recognise and deal effectively with causes, I think I am entitled to ask here, "Why did not you accept the invitation 13 months ago to come over and help us?"

Mr. J. WILSON

It is your job.

Dr. MACNAMARA

I am glad that that is conceded. I thought we were all in this trying to help each other, but from the last speech it might appear that it was purely a Labour representative's job. I must press this point. It would have been different if they had said, "We will come and see what we can do," but they did not, and there it is. I have said that the present trade depression and unemployment are unparalleled in our history, and, notwithstanding the terms of the Amendment, so has been the effort to find remedy and palliative unparalleled in our history.

Mr. MILLS

Will you find the remedies besides the palliatives?

Dr. MACNAMARA

Certainly. That is my job. Both the Government and the municipal authorities, notwithstanding the grave financial embarrassments with which we are confronted, have made provision for the unemployed on a scale out of all relationship to anything attempted in the, past. In the direction only of finding useful and productive work for men who would otherwise have been unemployed round about £40,000,000 have been set aside for productive work in one way or another by local authorities and the Government from the autumn of 1920 to the present time. That work-finding programme has been in two parts, the very considerable effort put forth from November, 1920, to November, 1921, and the continuing and increasing effort initiated at the later date. From the autumn of 1920 onwards, local authorities generally, with a public spirit and earnest responsibility which we cannot too highly appraise, came forward and, with financial assistance from the Government, put in hand schemes of arterial road-works, road maintenance and repair work, and other useful local undertakings, and in these ways we were able, month by month, from the beginning of 1920 right away on, to keep 90,000 men at work who would otherwise have been unemployed. The second, and in many respects the more comprehensive endeavour was initiated last fall through the various proposals which were put forward and submitted to Parliament and approved by it at the Session which was specially devoted to the consideration of the problem of unemployment.

Let me run through the results so far as they have gone, of what I call that second and more comprehensive effort. In the first place, we tried by extending and amending the export credits scheme and by offering Government guarantees for loans up to £25,000,000 for capital undertakings which would promote employment, to do what we could to get at the root of the trouble and produce an increase of employment, where it is beyond question most valuable, in the normal industries and occupations of the people. Under the original export credits scheme of 1919 the amount of credit sanctioned up to the end of October last was £3,647,000. In the past three months that figure has been practically doubled under the arrangements which were put in hand in the little Session of Parliament last October and November devoted to unemployment.

Mr. LUNN

What has the demand been?

Dr. MACNAMARA

I cannot answer that, but if the question is put to the Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade, he will endeavour to give the information. With regard to the offer of guarantees of loans for capital up to £25,000,000, we have had the assistance of the Advisory Committee of Business Men, with Sir Robert Kindersley as Chairman and Sir William Plender and Colonel Schuster as members. Their task is a difficult one because while the possibility of providing early increased employment is the final test they apply, very many of the schemes submitted to them have been of a kind which involves considerable work of negotiation and preparation. They have, however, so far recommended guarantees totalling £2,100,000, and under these proposals work has started in various districts in the North and the Midlands entailing employment for cement workers, iron, steel, and electrical workers and the unskilled workers associated with these provisional arrangements are now also far advanced in the case of several large proposals for railway work and the manufacture of locomotives for export. In these cases, which would involve guarantees up to a further £14,000,000, it is hoped that final approval may be given at an early date. Progress in this respect with schemes covering £14,000,000 of capital now rests entirely with the applicants for guarantees. In the same direction of endeavouring to stimulate normal industry, £563,000 was provided in Supplementary Estimates last Session for the acceleration of certain Government contracts and contracts have so far been expedited by the Postmaster-General and by the Admiralty. Further, we asked local authorities to co-operate with us once more, as they had done during the previous period, in the provision of relief through immediate local works. We offered them, through the St. David's Committee, for a period of years a proportion of the Loan charges which they incurred to put such works in hand. The response has been very great. The St. David's Committee has done its work admirably. Again I am grateful. The Minister of Health, who has been more particularly in charge of that section, will be glad to give the House full details of this particular feature of our endeavour. At the same time, we have extended the work, which has been provided for the former period, on road schemes, assisted by the Minister of Transport.

Mr. LUNN

Before leaving the question of local authorities and useful work, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government intends to continue these useful works?

Dr. MACNAMARA

That Department is conducted by the Minister of Health, who intends, if opportunity offers, to deal with the matter. In continuation of the work which has been done in the way of road work, in association with the Ministry of Transport, we provided a further £2,000,000 last November, and that has been allotted to large schemes of work in the home counties which have been carried out with the co-operation of the London County Council and to a number of provincial schemes. That is, of course, additional to the road works put in hand earlier under the former of these two efforts. In all there are 33,000 men employed to-day on arterial road works and in addition, about half as many again on road maintenance and road repair work at this time. Now for the agricultural areas, the staple industry of which is outside the insurance scheme. We provided a considerable sum for Government assistance to land drainage and improvement afforestation, and light railway works. A large number of small land drainage schemes, 181 in all, have been sanctioned and about 3,500 men, who would be otherwise unemployed, are at this time at work on land drainage schemes, where operations have actually begun. Four hundred and sixty-five schemes have been approved by the Forestry Commission, and those already in hand employ 4,000 men. Light railway undertakings are necessarily slower to mature. There are preliminaries to be settled, and negotiations to carry out, but I am informed that in two cases all is ready for a start as soon as the promoters' arrangements are completed, and in others negotiations are well advanced. As a result of these various efforts to provide productive work, the number of men reported to me as definitely employed now at work under these schemes, put in hand by the Government and local authorities, is 126,000. That number does not take any account of the undoubtedly large number of persons for whom employment in ancillary occupations must follow as the result of these operations; neither does it take any account of the men employed on capital undertakings under the Guarantee of Loans scheme; neither does it reflect any additional employment which has arisen or resulted from the Export Credits scheme. If allowance is made for these factors, obviously the real total number of men for whom employment has been provided must certainly be much greater, and will increase in the near future.

Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite may say: "What a meagre result?" And they may, and do, put into their Amendment complaint that we have not sufficiently provided the opportunity for useful productive work for the people of this country. I have told the House in terms what we have done and are doing, and hon. Members opposite complain that we have not sufficiently provided the opportunity for useful productive work, but believe me, the task of making work outside the ordinary channels of industry is very difficult, and when you have made it the work is quite unsuitable for a large number of those for whom you wish to make provision. I gather that the answer of the seconder will be: "We would go on another tack altogether. We would open productive factories under State direction." What would that mean? You would make work for one section by throwing another section of the same industry into unemployment. There are large numbers of unemployed to-day in any craft you like to take. Open a State factory—it will be very expensive, and all you will do will be to take away work which some of the people are doing. You would spend enormous sums of money without reducing the aggregate unemployment. Not only that, I think it is extremely likely that your very expenditure would prejudice employment in other directions. Therefore, with great respect to the view of the Seconder of the Amendment, I should call it a fantastic method of dealing with the unemployment problem.

Manifestly, in our work-making endeavour we can only touch the fringe of the problem which confronts us. The only way to find work for the mass of people unemployed in this country is to get the mills, the factories and the workshops going again. That we have striven and are striving to do. In the meantime, we were bound to do everything that our straitened circumstances permitted to mitigate the hardships of unemployment. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health will tell the House what provision was made for facilities for the sanction of loans to boards of guardians; but our main agency in the direction of making provision for those for whom there is not, and for whom you cannot make, work at the present time has been the Unemployment Insurance Act. That Act was, happily, very widely extended before the heavy weather came upon us. From November, 1920, to November, 1921, we were able to dispense under that Act £50,000,000 of benefit, and from November, 1921, up to roughly, round about Easter, a period of six months, we shall dispense another £25,000,000. Let me again remind those who rather loosely use the word "dole" in connection with these payments that, roughly, four-fifths of this money comes from the employers and the workpeople.

The unemployment benefit at the present time is 15s. a week for men and 12s a week for women. That is being paid now for the second special period laid down in the Act of last March. That period commenced on 3rd November last and the Act provided that there should be 16 weeks of benefit payable in that period to the persons so entitled. For those who, owing to the unbroken character of their unemployment, have to draw that benefit continuously, the 16 weeks will be exhausted on 22nd February; but the Act of last July gave power to extend this 16 weeks period by a further period not exceeding 6 weeks. In reply to my hon. Friend, I may say that the question of that extension is naturally receiving my most anxious consideration, and I hope to make a statement upon it without delay. By the same co-operation of the employers, the work-people and the State we are now, under the Unemployed Workers' Dependants Act of last November, adding to the unemployed men's 15s. benefit, 5s. a week on behalf of his wife or housekeeper, and 1s. a week on behalf of his little children. Under this provision grants are now being made weekly in respect of 600,000 adult dependants and about 1,000,000 children. These grants will continue to be paid week by week in proper cases for a period up to 9th May so long as unemployment benefit remains due.

Mr. HAYDAY

In the case of those who exhaust their benefit on the 22nd February, and who may not have it continued for 6 weeks, automatically the dependants' allowances cease.

Dr. MACNAMARA

Certainly. One was dependent upon the other. As I have said, the question of extension is engaging my most anxious attention, and I hope to make a statement about it without delay. In connection with the weekly payments paid under the Unemployment Insurance Act and the Unemployed Workers' Dependants Act, I wish to pay a tribute to the devotion and the tireless services of the officials of the Employment Exchanges. Hon. Members may take what view they like of the future of the Exchange system, but I must say that the officers of the Employment Exchanges have rendered a great and signal social service during this long period of trade depression. I am also deeply indebted to the local employment committees for the tireless and patient way in which they have spent their time examining claims for benefit. The task is a stupendous one. Let me give one figure only. Apart altogether from the permanent machinery of the Insurance Act, the check of the exchange officer, the check of the chief insurance officer, the check of the Board of Referees, and the check of the umpires, the local employment committees examined for us during 1921 5,344,000 claims for benefit under the emergency provisions of Section 3 of the Act of last March, admitting and rejecting as the law demanded. Both on the part of the local employment committees and the exchange officials claims of doubtful validity call for careful examination, and impose a serious responsibility. There are people—a very small minority, no doubt—young people without dependants, young people who get help of sorts from relatives, young people living at home, who come for benefit without having made what one could hardly describe as particularly strenuous efforts to get work. We follow up as well as we can the statements that work cannot be found. I cannot finally test that unless I have a vacancy to offer.

Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL

Employers as a rule do not come to you. They leave you alone, because they have no faith in the exchanges.

Dr. MACNAMARA

That is a thousand pities. So far as the men are concerned, except for the relief works, which I have described, and the numbers that I have given, there is not very much work which can be offered to-day in most localities. There is another side to the picture, which reveals a pathetic spectacle. A firm advertises for 50 men to work in a timber yard, and, almost before the gates are opened, they find 5,000 weary men outside pleading to be taken on. Take the case of the levelling work to be clone at Wembley. I shall not be far out if I say that the applications, personal and written, which have been made to the Employment Exchanges by men wanting to be taken on to that job, would fill the vacancies 20 times over. My hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. A. M. Samuel) says the employers have no faith in the Employment Exchanges. I am very sorry. They could help us a great deal. If only I could get vacancies reported to the Employment Exchanges wherever there are any—and as things improve there will he vacancies—it would relieve me and be of enormous assistance to everybody concerned, particularly to the unemployed themselves, the vast majority of whom are quite honest when they say that they prefer work to doles.

The weekly contributions under the Unemployment Insurance Act, the Unemployed Workers' Dependants Act, and the Health Insurance Act are pretty heavy. They are particularly heavy upon the workpeople on short time, and they are very heavy upon industry; but I have received practically no complaint from the workpeople in respect of this heavy impost, or from the employers in respect of this heavy charge upon them. That is characteristic of our people, and finds its fitting counterpart in the fortitude with which the great body of unemployed men and women have faced and are facing the hardships of the situation. There is another very vital direction in which a similar spirit becomes more and more apparent. The outstanding feature of these many months of depression and gloom has been the increasing community of understanding, of aim and of purpose between the employers and the employed people. As the Minister of Labour I am glad to stand here and pay a tribute to the growing disposition of the employers to got their workpeople together and discuss jointly with them, frankly and freely, the facts, the prospects and the necessities of the problems before them.

Mr. A. M. SAMUEL

We have always been ready to talk with our men.

Dr. MACNAMARA

I am very glad to hear that so many others are now following my hon. Friend's most admirable example, to which I am endeavouring to pay a tribute. I am sure that much that has been going on in this direction of consultation and conciliation and understanding of each other's point of view during these gloomy months, gives us solid assurance that when we do come out again into better times we shall reap to the full the fruits of the opportunities then presented to us. But that opportunity can only come when the deep-seated cause of the present depression is removed, when success has crowned our efforts fully to re-establish peace, stability and confidence amongst all our neighbours—because it is upon these sure foundations alone that the trader can go forth to engage upon the enterprises which in turn bring prosperity, succour and contentment to those who work in the factory and the workshop. Therefore I shall have the support of the House when I pray that the labours of the International Conference at Genoa may be crowned with success. Every step that may be taken there towards the solution of this mighty problem of the economic reconstruction of Europe and the world is also a special step towards the renewal of prosperity in London, in Leeds, in Manchester, in Birmingham, in Glasgow and elsewhere. We begin this Session as we began and ended the last Session, taking counsel together on this grave and anxious problem, and I have no doubt that the House, in its solicitude, will return to the discussion as the Session proceeds. Though there are lighter patches in the shadows around us we cannot say yet that the gloom is definitely lifting and passing away, but we must stick it out, stick it out with grim determination, leaving no effort, no expedient untried until we have worked our way through once more, somehow or other, to re-establish trade and regular employment.

Mr. CLYNES

My right hon. Friend referred in very kindly terms to the case as it was put from this side of the House by my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment and by my hon. Friend the Member for South-east Southwark (Mr. Naylor). I am sure the House will like me to add that the speech of the hon. Member for Southwark was really a model of what a maiden speech might well be, and I congratulate him upon the vigour, the ease, and the skill with which, for the first time, he undertook to discharge the difficult task of addressing this House. My right hon. Friend has given us a speech which almost entirely has been a narrative of what the Government has done, split up here and there, and in that regard securing the sympathy of the House for those who are concerned, with some description of the suffering involved in this continued unemployment. It was not a speech which seems to me to hold out any reassurance whatever to this large suffering mass or to give them the slightest hope of any early improvement in their condition. There was no hint of a new plan, no indication of any kind as to affording more substantial assistance by the Government, either in regard to their pressing financial needs or to their equally pressing need for employment. It was a hopeless speech, it is not too much, therefore, to say, which has been delivered by the Minister of Labour on this outstanding problem of all the internal problems of the country.

The right hon. Gentleman began by telling us that the War has left the trade of Europe in ruins. I do not accept that statement as meaning exactly the same thing as that which is in the mind of my right hon. Friend, for I would say that the peace more than the War in Europe accounts to-day for the ever deepening state of unemployment which has prevailed since the War terminated. We are discussing this subject in relation to the terms of the King's Speech, and I would therefore remind the House that since this Parliament was elected there have been four Speeches from the Throne. If hon. Members look up these four speeches they will find that in the first two, when unemployment was not exceptionally severe, but when there bad been created in the public mind an expectation of this question being the business of the Govern- ment, there were general promises of treatment and Government action to deal with the question. They will find in the third speech the declaration that this was not a subject that could be dealt with by legislation, and now we have in this fourth speech the announcement by inference that the Government itself can do nothing within these shores. Nothing is hinted at in the speech of my right hon. Friend, and nothing is said in the Speech from the Throne but that we are to look for prospects of improvement not to Westminster, not to the Cabinet, but that we must turn our eyes to Genoa and look to what might be the outcome of the great economic conference which is to be assembled there. For myself I welcome warmly the terms in the Speech from the Throne relating to this question of unemployment. Our grievance is that these terms are not accompanied by or preceded by definite declarations of policy on unemployment which internally could be pursued and applied by the British Government. Surely the Government is not wholly devoid of the faculty for organisation. Surely something can be attempted even on the lines described by the right hon. Gentleman in his accounts of what has already been done.

Dr. MACNAMARA

And what is being done?

Mr. CLYNES

I will reach that stage in my remarks a little later. May I draw attention to the fact that there is not a line of hopefulness in the Speech from the Throne or of any further undertaking on the part of the Ministry to pass Bills or to take administrative action in reference to this problem. How far that falls short of the needs of those concerned is very well expressed in the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman himself. So our complaint is first that nothing is proposed as to further action here. But we welcome heartily the terms of the King's Speech for the reason that these terms might well have been written by my right hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. A. Henderson). They are in every sense labour's language. Let me read them: The only remedy for this distressing situation is to be found in the appeasement of international rivalries and suspicions, and in the improvement of the conditions under which trade is carried on all over the world. For these reasons I welcome the arrange- ments which are now being made for the meeting of an International Conference at Genoa at which, I trust, it will be possible to establish peace on a fair basis in Europe and to reach a settlement of the many important questions arising out of the pressing need for financial and economic reconstruction. These are the things which we have been saying in this House and outside it since the end of the War. The first party to call for a great economic conference which would undertake the task of financial and economic reconstructions of a ruined Europe was the Labour party. This is the second time that view has been put before the country. This, therefore, is an instance of the Government undertaking at last to try to do the right thing when they can no longer continue to do the wrong thing. They have for these last three years since the end of the War ignored our appeals. They have kept on these mockeries of conferences, and these partial consultations under the auspices of the body which is called the Supreme Council, and having finally seen that that sort of partial meeting of representatives of portions of Europe is powerless to effect any economic or financial reconstruction, they now go the length of inviting the representatives of Soviet Russia, and of Germany, and, indeed, they are sending invitations to all those representatives, for wham years ago Labour claimed the right of admission and discussion as to these questions of European reconstruction.

My right hon. Friend pointed out that we were not alone in suffering. That is quite true. How could it be otherwise? It is incidental and in the nature of things that countries in Europe should all suffer more or less like ourselves because of the European trade break-down. We can have neither all the benefits nor all the disadvantages of either trade prosperity or trade ruin in Europe, but we do stand in a special case which should have called, in the circumstances, on our behalf for a totally different line of policy from our Ministers than that which other countries could dare to pursue. France can afford to take risks for the reasons described by my right hon. Friend. Compared with ourselves she is largely a pastoral country with conditions of population entirely different from ours and she is in no way dependent as we are for internal prosperity on having a great export trade. It is because of the very exceptional posi- tion in which we stand, as being largely a market for the world and as being so enormously dependent upon the maintenance of our overseas trade, that our Ministers should have kept their eye upon the degree of greater ruin to industry in this country if there was anything like a break-down of European trade conditions. The faults of these peace provisions and totally impossible plans that have been followed are meekly revealed now in the terms of the speech which tells us that at last we must have a great conference at Genoa and that all those who have been previously excluded must be brought together to try to make work that which never will work unless enormously modified—the Treaty of Versailles.

The right hon. Gentleman described the result of all the skilled and sustained service and effort of more than one Ministry in relation to the task of finding work for the unemployed. I would like to ask for an answer to the question—Upon which ground is the right hon. Gentleman going to base his claim? He points out that they have found employment, under the auspices of the local authorities to a large extent, for some 90,000 men, that on arterial road-making work they have found employment for 33,000 men, at certain other jobs for about half that number, that export credits have found employment for a certain number, and thus they can produce a figure exceeding, I think, about 180,000 workers. Then when we go further and say that that is the policy which the Government can further follow he tells us that if they do they would be throwing other people out of work. I ask therefore upon which ground is the right hon. Gentleman going to base his claim for dealing with unemployment? He cannot have it both ways. He must choose as to whether finding work through a statutory department or through the local authorities is beneficent work, proper and profitable work, or is it work which, when undertaken by the municipalities or by the State, causes the unemployment of other workers who would otherwise not be unemployed?

I will put this question to the Minister of Health. Would the employment of a larger number of workers in larger, more ambitious and more numerous housing schemes in this country throw out of work people who otherwise would be employed? Surely not. I do not want to go into the Government reversal of policy on the question of housing, but clearly its effect has been to damp down all the prospects which were held out of keeping builders busy for a considerable time to come. Undoubtedly there must have been an enormous falling off in the opportunities of work for a considerable number of men in the building trades. At the moment I do not know what the figures are, but common report indicates that a very large number of building trades workers are now out of employment who would have been in employment if the Government had not almost completely reversed its plan on the question of house construction.

6.0 P.M.

The Prime Minister has some responsibility on the question of schemes. I expected to-day that in addition to an outline of what had already been accomplished there would have been some indication of the carrying a little further of Government policy by means either of a Bill or administrative action. The Prime Minister was prepared in October of last year to address himself specially to this question when on his way from Scotland. Labour representatives from London went to that part of the country and the Prime Minister gave an indication of great schemes that were in his mind. This is his language: No schemes have yet been formulated, but the Cabinet must meet immediately. Suggestions will be drafted and the scheme determined upon will be put before the House. As is well-known, something was done. How much, is revealed in the speech we have heard to-day. The Prime Minister addressed himself to a great theme. He created great expectations by making a promise and announcing that the question would be dealt with by such means as the Government had at their disposal. That sort of thing can be carried too far. Are we now to understand that the schemes of last October are the full length of any Government effort on this question? Is there to be no answer to that question? The Prime Minister raised an expectation by his language of October last and gave a promise which was obviously intended to create the impression that the problem would be dealt with in something like an adequate way, and now his colleague, the Minister of Labour, is left quite unable to hold out the slightest hope of going beyond the little attempted in the Session of October last. It would appear that this Government is satisfied to limit itself always to the plan of promising that something is to be done, and yet never attempting it. It is that which is creating not only disappointment but bitterness, and that which fills the minds of a great many people outside this House with a sense of the unreality of Ministerial pronouncements. The Government are always going to do something, but it never gets done.

I say deliberately that that pronouncement of the Prmie Minister was obviously designed to create the impression that this difficulty would be dealt with, and yet now we find ourselves in a state very little better than was our condition four months ago. My right hon. Friend opposite dissents from that. He must not measure improvement by any barometer of a slightly decreased list of the numbers of the unemployed. You can have a decrease to a slight extent in the total numbers of unemployed and yet have a far worse situation, because the resources and the general ability to supplement the meagre allowance secured to these men from the Government or through local agencies provide far less sustenance now than was the case three or four months ago. The longer masses of men are out of work the deeper is their privation and the greater are their difficulties. I complain, therefore, that public expectation has been roused by promises which the Government should at least try to make good by definite legislation or by administrative action. In the course of last Session we had some attempt made to provide special grants for the unemployed, and again it is the Prime Minister's language which causes me to return to what was done last year. I would like to remind my right hon. Friend opposite again of how completely large numbers of persons in this country who could well afford, and easily afford, to pay their contribution to the special fund, which will very soon be exhausted—the Dependant's Fund—how completely large numbers have escaped making a contribution. To that fund only the employers and the workers paid.

Dr. MACNAMARA

And the State.

Mr. CLYNES

The State pays a comparatively small contribution. Out of some £7,000,000 it pays something over £2,000,000. Certainly the State is the lesser contributor. Considerable numbers of people escaped contribution. For instance, the Members of this House escaped any contribution. So did the professional classes, the farming class, municipal employés, civil servants, financiers and bankers, and others. Indeed, a few million people well able to make a substantial contribution to that special fund escaped contributions altogether. The least the right hon. Gentleman might have done was to have announced that some plan would be applied whereby those classes would be made to contribute, so that the fund could be drawn out somewhat or the small payments which are made from it slightly increased. On this question the Prime Minister laid down certain principles when he said: if you have a body of men in any country willing to work and anxious to work but for whom no work can be found, they cannot be allowed to starve so long as there is a crust in the national cupboard. The honour of our country demands it; the call of our common humanity appeals for it; the precepts, the noble precepts of our common faith insist upon it. That is the first principle which I regard as the action of a civilised Government in any land. That is the kind of language to win applause, but the Prime Minister should be extremely careful about his declarations on questions which indeed do stir the community, and upon which we are entitled to call on him to suit his action to his word.

Mr. HOWARD GRITTEN

In order better to follow the argument, would the right hon. Gentleman answer this question: Supposing contributions were made by these classes which, he says, are not now contributing at all, would that contribution, in his opinion, relieve the State of liability?

Mr. CLYNES

That is not my meaning. I do not want it to relieve the State. I am pointing out that the working classes are themselves taxpayers. Then the State comes forward and says that they must pay also a weekly contribution out of their wages. My complaint is that other taxpayers are not treated in like manner; they pay only one contribution, whereas the working man is obliged to pay two, merely because he is covered by the Unemployment Insurance Act.

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir A. Mond)

Has anybody starved?

Mr. CLYNES

My right hon. Friend should be the last man in this House or out of it to ask whether anybody has starved. I am sure that question must arise from the inner depth of his innocence as to what are the conditions of the working classes in this country. Let him go to any part of the East End of London; let him go to the docks to see men fighting for a job. Let him go to any big town or city. Let him, if he will, try the new experience of walking into the homes of working men. He might do that during an election time. Let him do it now in any part of the country and acquaint himself by some personal contact with what are the realities of the impoverished and semi-starving state of a very large number of the people of the country.

Sir A. MOND

The right hon. Gentleman quoted some words of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister's words, I imagine, were deliberately chosen and very limited, and he now charges the Prime Minister with not carrying out what he said. He must not talk now about impoverished conditions.

Mr. CLYNES

I accept the view that the Prime Minister's language was deliberately chosen. My complaint is that the implication of that language is now deliberately avoided. You have deliberate promises, you have an expectation created in the mind of the country that certain things will be done. My point is that these things are not done at all. How can it be said that a state of starvation is prevented if you limit the maintenance of a working man to 15s. a week? That is a sum which, in pre-War values, will not purchase more than about 8s. worth. It means that you are asking an ordinary working man, so far as his individual support from the State is concerned, leaving aside his wife and children for the time being, to live upon a sum which, in pre-War values, amounts to about 1s. a day. That is not giving him his share of the crust. His child can get as much as 1s. a week. That is the value now put upon the heads of the children of the men who fought and won the War.

Major MOLSON

Cheap, cheap!

Mr. CLYNES

I can feel almost the disturbed state of mind of many hon. Gentlemen who are doing me the honour of listening to me, but I should be interested to hear how far they can show that these things are not true. I am sorry to say that in one sense they are cheap; they are the truths that have become commonplaces. They are merely the terms that express the realities of life, and the man who thinks them cheap should himself try, not for one week or month, but for one day, to limit himself to the means of subsistence which this Government has so far provided. Then he will see how cheap or how dear the experience is to him. [An HON. MEMBER: "Have the Labour party tried that experiment?"] I am sure hon. Gentlemen will have their opportunities in the course of these Debates, and if the Government would provide the Labour party with the facility of another day to continue this discussion we should be happy to try to answer all their questions. I said that I welcomed the terms of the Speech from the Throne so far as it relates to the international aspect of this question, but I want to do more than merely claim credit for the Labour party for having years ago appealed for the very plan which the Government has now decided upon. Economic prosperity is impossible until a real peace is established. Real peace, in our judgment, depends upon Russia and Germany being brought into this Conference and being linked in their interests with other European countries and with America. I think I have been sustained in that view by one little thing contained in the speech to which the House has just listened. This is not merely our question; it affects little States in America as well as big countries in parts of Europe, but I repeat that it is the old Labour appeal, and we support any plan of the Government designed speedily to produce good results from a conference. Here I would repeat what I endeavoured to say the other day, that we want a speedy economic recovery more than we want a party victory. The Prime Minister did not scruple to make a more or less serviceable debating point out of the view which I put before the House a day or two ago. Part of a sentence which I used was taken as a declaration of Labour policy. My full statement shows we have no desire to take the place of Ministers merely for the sake of taking their places. It is not office that for the moment we want, so much as a new policy if the Government is willing to pursue that policy. Indeed, we want trade revival more than we want a General Election.

Sir W. RAEBURN

Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly say what his party are doing to help employment or trade?

Mr. CLYNES

I am afraid that is one of the questions which I have to bring under the head of my remark made a moment ago as to the necessity of another day if we are expected to deal with all these points. As it would appear that, my meaning is not yet plain, I will reduce my statement to the terms necessary for any intelligence which may still have difficulty in understanding what I have in mind. The situation outside is a terrible one. I feel it keenly—as I am sure all other Members do—and I say solemnly, that an election, if it took place in a few weeks or a month, could not deal with this matter in a way that would give us any relief for months to come. That is my meaning. What I want in place of election talk is Parliamentary action. If we can get a policy which now, this week or next week, will produce relief for the weeks immediately ahead, I say I would set every personal or party consideration aside and give all the assistance I could to produce immediate results which would have a beneficent effect outside these walls. I hope my meaning is now clear. If the Government is in earnest in asking for unity, we are in earnest in offering our support to any policy which now will relieve the terrible sufferings being endured outside these walls.

I find my language of a day or two ago has been most grossly misrepresented in a speech made by the Coalition candidate in a bye-election in London. He said I declared in this House that I wanted this Government to continue in office. I never said anything of the kind, and I have been doing my best inside this House and outside, to replace the Government with a better one. But this is the Government that for the time being we have got. I want to ask how far this Government, which is the only one that can use any power—how far can this Government go upon lines of policy which might have the effect of relieving the economic situation? I might draw attention to the fact that on the 15th December the Labour Members of this House, together with many other Labour representatives, saw the Prime Minister and had a long interview with him. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour was present. We then put before the Prime Minister our appeal for an international economic conference, so it does not come to us as, in any way, a new thing. We especially believe that there are opportunities we have neglected of restoring our trading relations with Russia. We are mindful of the financial difficulties, but surely all these problems should not be outside the possibility of successful treatment on the part of right hon. Gentlemen who claim a monopoly of fitness to rule a State. If they have this extraordinary faculty, and if they alone possess it, they should be able to apply it to things which are difficult, as well as things which are easy. Any child can do the easy thing; it is only the difficult job that Ministers should take credit in facing. Their action, as we allege, has been the cause of this economic breakdown—their failure to make a peace which would have permitted the world to undertake the tasks of reconstruction which still await us. If their policy has been the cause of these results they ought to have the wisdom to reverse that policy and apply plans to make workable those conditions of prosperity which I do not believe will ever properly be restored, until we get a more ample exchange of commodities as between one country and another.

Before the War, Russia was nearly our chief concern. Part of our prosperity is linked up with the prosperity of Russian agriculture, which offers great opportunities for the manufacture in this country of agricultural machinery and the supply of a great many things required on the land. That kind of trade with Russia is impossible without adequate credit arrangements and without recognition of, and consultation with, the Russian Government. I see that theme is still a subject for hilarity on the part of one hon. Gentleman opposite. Let me therefore say that as yet we are not yet technically at peace with Russia, we do not trade with, we do not deal with and we do not consult with the Russian Government as a Government. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is not an elected Government."] We shall do that in due course when pressure becomes so irresistible that we can no longer refuse to do it. What I am saying is, that for the time being it is the Russian Government and I am interrupted with the remark that it is not an elected Government. Was the Government of the Tsar an elected Government? Have we always been so nice and precise in the selection of our customers? Are we only to treat with democrats? Have we come now to the point that we must chose the method of government of the people with whom we are to trade? I say it is for the Russian people themselves to settle how they are to govern, and it is for us to neglect no opportunity of doing business with the Russian people. Then the debts of the Russian Government await discussion. M. Krassin and his colleagues for a considerable time past, have expressed publicly their willingness to discuss with our Government the question of the debts and the financial obligations which were entered into in the past, but instead of treating this question as business men and doing business with anybody because of the very urgency of our own needs, we shelter behind these secondary and trivial points as to whether Russia has proceeded to elect a democratic government or not. What is the Prime Minister's view, as expressed by him on Tuesday, in respect to Russia? The Prime Minister used language which suggested that we ought to consider ourselves lucky because the workers in this country were not as badly off as the Russian workers. That statement was cheered by hon. Members who sit behind the Prime Minister. What a humiliating comparison. We are neither sympathetic with, nor responsible for, Russian methods of government, but what led up to them. I will not occupy time in describing how there were at least two revolutions and a complete breakdown of anything that could be called an economic system in Russia, and following upon that attacks, invasions, and a blockade which would have crippled Russia in any case had she not been partially crippled already by what had preceded these wicked attacks upon her. Russia includes a population in no way gifted as are our own people with skill in trades, in no way educated as our people are, not possessing this Government of all the gifts and all the fitness to govern, yet that is the country with which we are now asked to compare our- selves. When we say we have 2,000,000 of people starving, when we say we have enormous reductions in wages and great distress on account of those reductions, the Prime Minister asks us to be consoled by the fact that, badly off as we are, it can be said that people in Russia are worse. That is a doctrine which I suggest to the Prime Minister can be pressed too far.

If we set aside the famine and the consequences of the famine of Russia, I risk a question to my right hon. Friend which I hope he will answer. Can he say that, apart from the famine and its effects upon Russia, that now, in the main, workers in Russia are worse off than the unemployed here? I have said we accept no responsibility for and in no way approve of Russian methods of government. That is not the point; but when we are asked to look at the picture of what is happening in Russia I think we are entitled to demand some evidence for the conclusion evidently reached by the Prime Minister, and we are entitled to ask that our country should be listed with some similar country. Compare us with America, Italy, France, Germany or Spain and I say we come out of the comparison very badly indeed. That is largely due to the blindness of our own Ministers who overlooked the fact that we are a great exporting country and insisted as they did upon conditions of peace which were certain to mean economic disaster. The Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) addressed most pointed questions to the Government yesterday and made a number of very serious charges, to which some answer should be furnished. He reminded the Government that it was our representatives at Versailes who, even more than the French representatives, were the first cause of those conditions in the Treaty which are the root cause of our suffering. It. seems to me no answer is attempted to the main part of the charge levelled against the Government as being the first cause and the instrument of our present difficulties. If the so-called best brains of Britain cannot do for the people of this country any better than the Bolshevik Government can do for Russia, it is time, I think, that they gave way to somebody who can. At any rate, we assemble for this Session, as the right hon. Gentl