§ Considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)427
§ (9.0.) MR. KEARLEY (Devonport)
said he wished to press on the Chancellor of the Exchequer again the question of appointing a Scientific Committee to ascertain whether the computation on which the sugar duty was levied was a fair one or not. He would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should call into consultation some analysts of eminence. He also wished to draw his attention to glucose used in the manufacture of jam. Last year in dealing with this question, he pointed out that glucose was largely used in the manufacture of confectionery, and he urged that in order to preserve purity, the duties on sugar and glucose should he equalised. The duty on glucose was 2s., but that on sugar was 4s. 2d. What was happening now? Glucose was being substituted for sugar, and the revenue was suffering. He knew of a case where 28 per cent. of glucose was used in the manufacture of marmalade. That was done, of course, to enable production of a cheap article, and he feared the practice would grow, so that presently jam, instead of consisting of 50 per cent. of sugar, and 50 per cent. of fruit, would be composed, 25 per cent. of sugar and 25 per cent. of glucose, with 50 per cent. of fruit. The right hon. Gentleman ought to look into this matter in his own interest. He would like to say a word or two on the sugar duty generally, especially as to the reason why it had not been felt. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had twitted some of them with what he called their doleful prophecies as to the probable effect of the sugar duty. It was true that the burden bad not fallen on the consumer and that was due to the fact that the circumstances which brought about the fall in the price of sugar were quite exceptional. For instance, the average carrying over from one harvest to another was 500,000 tons, but this year the carrying over was estimated at l,834,000 tons. Naturally that caused an enormous fall in the price of sugar. In the same way also during the last twelve years there had been great fluctuations, terrible slumps and great booms in the value of mining shares, so in the case of sugar the prices had risen and fallen enormously, and as sure as the sun would rise the next morning, values 428 would again go up. In 1888, the rise was from 12s. 2d. to 28s., in 1892 from 12s. 9d. to 18s. 9d., and in 1898 from 8s. 6d.—the lowest point at which it ever stood—to 12s. 9d. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer must not think that the present low price would be chronic, for a year or two hence, when the market got rid of the great glut, values would go up, and then the full effect of the duty would be felt by the consumer.
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACH
said he gathered that the hon. Gentleman did not wish to make this an annual tax, because he admitted that the trade had settled down, and that any fresh disturbance would be injurious. He, therefore, need not argue that point. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would believe that he was obliged to him for his attention to these matters in the interest of fair play to the trade, and also in the interest of the revenue. With regard to the last point, he entirely admitted that sugar was a fluctuating article, and that, in the future, prices might rise, with some addition in the cost to the consumer. He was rather glad to hear from the hon. Member the admission, not only that the price of sugar was low at the present time, but that it was likely to remain so for the next year or two. However that might be, his impression was that when the Convention which had been agreed to came into force, the effect would be to steady the price of sugar, because the law of supply and demand would work under more normal conditions than at present. He could assure the hon. Member that he would carefully consider his suggestion that the system on which the sugar duties were framed gave some unfair advantage to the refiners in this country. This matter cropped up at the Brussels Conference, but it was not then established that there was in reality any unfair advantage. His own impression was that there was no such advantage, and he had heard nothing from those who might be supposed to take this view with regard to the trade generally in support of the suggestion. He was not prepared at present to say whether any 429 such inquiry as the hon. Member had proposed would be right or not. It might be necessary in the course of the next twelve months. He was obliged to the hon. Member for calling his attention to the increased use of glucose, and he was not prepared to say that the duty upon it might not be varied at some future time so as to bring it into nearer relation with the duty on sugar. If there should be a large substitution of glucose for sugar in the manufacture of jam, the matter ought to be inquired into. He should like to impress upon the Committee, with regard to the proposal of the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire, that this should be an annual duty, that there was no reason, as far as he could see, why the motion should not be applied to every kind of Customs duty. If they carried out the principle that every year every tax was to be brought up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for revision in the House of Commons, the business of Parliament would be impossible, and a position would be created which would be absolutely intolerable both to the House of Commons and to the country. He hoped, therefore, the Committee would seriously consider what it was doing before assenting to the proposed new clause of the hon. Member opposite.
§ MR. JAMES REID (Greenock)
believed that the imposition of the sugar duty had played an important part in bringing about the abrogation of the sugar bounties, and urged that they ought not to interfere now with legislation which was solemnly adopted by that House only twelve months ago. They had better lot well alone. The sugar refiners of the country must wait until September, 1903, when the new Convention will come into force. No doubt there were huge stocks of sugar, but was not that all the better for the country? Did it not tend to cheapen the food of the people? He hoped they would accept the advice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and let the sugar duty have a fair trial.
§ MR. DAVID MACIVER
admitted that the sugar refiners—especially in Liverpool—had had serious difficulties to contend 430 with, but they were struggling gallantly to maintain their trade. The idea that the sugar tax should be brought up every year for consideration was absurd. The tax had been of immense value to the revenue, and he believed it was capable of being of still greater value in the time to come. He preferred to trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter. It would be better that a little time should elapse before the whole question of the sugar duties should be revised; but be hoped that the time would come when the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able to re-consider them with the object of helping the cultivation of beet in this country for the manufacture of sugar. He would remind the Committee that no one in the House took a greater interest in this question than the late Colonel Milward, and shortly before his death he published a most able pamphlet on the possibility of beet being successfully grown in this country and in Ireland.
§ MR. MCKENNA
asked whether the question which the hon. Gentleman was discussing was relevant to the Amendment.
said he was waiting to hear how the hon. Gentleman could connect his speech with the question before the Committee.
§ MR. DAVID MACIVER
said he thought that the subject might safely be left in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to be re-considered again at the proper time and in the proper manner, when the sugar duty might possibly be readjusted with a view to the encouragement of the growth of beet in this country. The hon. Member for Devonport had been, he thought, a little too persistent on the rights of the consumer. The rights of the producer ought also to be considered. He hoped the contention of the hon. Member for Devonport would not be sustained, but that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would increase the duties on sugar grown in foreign lands, and encourage the production of beet sugar in this country.
§ (9.33.) Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 92; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 217.)433
|Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.||Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Scale-||O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)|
|Allan, William (Gateshead)||Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.||O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)|
|Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud||Hope, John Deans (Fife, West||O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.|
|Barry, E. (Cork, S)||Jones, William (Carnarvonshire||O'Mara, James|
|Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)||Joyce, Michael||O'Shaughnessy, P. J.|
|Bell, Richard||Kearley, Hudson E.||Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)|
|Boland, John||Lambert, George||Power, Patrick Joseph|
|Caldwell, James||Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)||Price, Robert John|
|Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)||Leamy, Edmund||Rea, Russell|
|Causton, Richard Knight||Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington||Reckitt, Harold James|
|Cawley, Frederick||Leigh, Sir Joseph||Reddy, M.|
|Condon, Thomas Joseph||Levy, Maurice||Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)|
|Craig, Robert Hunter||Lewis, John Herbert||Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)|
|Crean, Eugene||Lloyd-George, David||Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)|
|Cremer, William Randal||Lough, Thomas||Sheehan, Daniel Daniel|
|Delany, William||Lundon, W.||Shipman, Dr. John G.|
|Dillon, John||MacNeill, John Gordon Swift||Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)|
|Doogan, P. C.||MacVeagh, Jeremiah||Soames, Arthur Wellesley|
|Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)||M'Crae, George||Soares, Ernest J.|
|Duncan, J. Hastings||M'Hugh, Patrick A.||Sullivan, Donal|
|Esmonde, Sir Thomas||M'Kean, John||Thomas, J A (Glomorgan, Gower|
|Fenwick, Charles||M'Kenna, Reginald||Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n, N|
|Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)||Mansfield, Horace Rendall||White, Patrick (Meath, North|
|Ffrench, Peter||Markham, Arthur Basil||Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)|
|Flynn, James Christopher||Morley, Charles (Breconshire)||Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)|
|Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)||Murphy, John||Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.|
|Gilhooly, James||Nannetti, Joseph P.||Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)|
|Goddard, Daniel Ford||Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)||Young, Samuel|
|Gurdon, Sir William Brampton||O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid|
|Haldane, Richard Burdon||O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)||TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Mr. Whitley and Mr. Broadhurst.|
|Hammond, John||O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)|
|Hayden, John Patrick||O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)|
|Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.||Dickinson, Robert Edmond||Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.|
|Anson, Sir William Reynell||Doughty, George||Macdona, John Cumming|
|Arkwright, John Stanhope||Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-||MacIver, David (Liverpool)|
|Arrol, Sir William||Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin||Maconochie, A. W.|
|Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John||Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward||M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)|
|Bain, Colonel James Robert||Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne||M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.|
|Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds||Fisher, William Hayes||M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W|
|Banbury, Frederick George||FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-||M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire|
|Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks||Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry||Majendie, James A. H.|
|Bignold, Arthur||Flower, Ernest||Martin, Richard Biddulph|
|Blundell, Colonel Henry||Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.||Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.|
|Brassey, Albert||Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W||Maxwell, W. J H (Dumfriesshire|
|Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John||Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)||Melville, Beresford Valentine|
|Brotherton, Edward Allen||Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon||Mere, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire|
|Bullard, Sir Harry||Grenfell, William Henry||Morgan, David J. Walthamstow|
|Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.||Gretton, John||Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.|
|Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire||Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. Midd'x||Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)|
|Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)||Harris, Frederick Leverton||Mount, William Arthur|
|Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)||Haslam, Sir Alfred S.||Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute|
|Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r||Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley||Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay|
|Chapman, Edward||Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside||Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)|
|Charrington, Spencer||Houston, Robert Paterson||Parkes, Ebenezer|
|Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.||Howard, J. Midd., Tottenham||Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard|
|Coghill, Douglas Harry||Kenyon-Slaney. Col. W. (Salop.||Plummer, Walter R.|
|Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse||Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)||Pretyman, Ernest George|
|Cranborne, Viscount||Lawson, John Grant||Purvis, Robert|
|Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)||Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie||Randles, John S.|
|Cubitt, Hon. Henry||Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.||Rankin, Sir James|
|Denny, Colonel||Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine||Ratcliff, R. F.|
|Reid, James (Greenock)||Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)||Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-|
|Renwick, George||Stock, James Henry||Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne|
|Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)||Stone, Sir Benjamin||Willoughby de Eresby, Lord|
|Rolleston, Sir John F. L.||Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley||Wills, Sir Frederick|
|Ropner, Colonel Robert||Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier||Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.|
|Royds, Clement Molyneux||Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)||Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)|
|Russell, T. W.||Valentia, Viscount||Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong|
|Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander||Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)|
|Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)||Warde, Colonel C. E.|
|Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East||Warr, Augustus Frederick||TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.|
|Smith, H. C (Northmb. Tyneside||Webb, Colonel William George|
|Spear, John Ward||Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)|
Question put and agreed to.
§ MR. CHARLES MCARTHUR (Liverpool, Exchange)
said the Clause he now moved was meant to clear up a doubt which had arisen as to the interpretation of the 10th Section of the Finance Act of last year, and he had been asked to propose it by the Association of corn millers of Great Britain and Ireland. He understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not oppose it.
Section 10 of the Finance Act, 1901, applies, although the goods have undergone a process of manufacture or preparation, or have become a part or ingredient of other goods."—(Mr. Charles McArthur.)
§ brought up and read a first time.
§ Motion made and Question proposed "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACH
said he certainly understood that the object which the hon. Member desired to attain was secured by the Bill of last year, but if there was any doubt in the matter he had no objection to the Clause.
§ Clause added.
§ MR. HALDANE moved a new Clause standing on the Paper in the name of his right hon. friend the Member for East Wolverhampton. It was a very reasonable one, and had the full approval of the Associated Law Society, which had great experience of these matters.
The provision of Section 62 of the Stamp Act, 1891, limiting to 10s. the duty on conveyances or transfers made for effectuating the appointment of a new trustee, shall apply to any deed for effectuating the retirement of
a trustee under Section 11 of the Trustee Act, 1893, although no new trustee is appointed."—(Mr. Haldane.)
§ brought up and read a first time.
§ Motion made and Question proposed "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,) Inverness Burghs
said that the Government had no objection to the Clause.
§ Clause added.
§ (9.50.) MR. HALDANE
said that from that side of the House they had been endeavouring to get for the people free bread and free coal; he was now about to ask for free alcohol. The Clause he now moved naturally presented a somewhat picturesque aspect, and, therefore, perhaps required a word or two of explanation. He might say that nobody need imagine that they would get free drinks if this Clause were passed. The myrmidons of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take care of that. There would also be no loss of revenue by the operation of the Clause, because the alcohol to which it applied was not, as the law stood, in use at all. Owing to the unenlightened policy of this country manufactures had been prevented front coming into existence, and others hail been starved out of existence, because it was impossible to get cheap alcohol, which was a very good solvent, and which was necessary for carrying out very many manufacturing processes. There was an unobtrusive but useful body called the Explosives Committee, which had been doing a good deal of useful work during the last three years. They had found themselves face to face with the necessity 435 of obtaining an adequate supply of nitrocellulose for the purpose of bringing the powder used in our Navy and Army to perfection, and of encouraging manufacturers to establish their factories in this country, and to make nitro-cellulose, which would be a source of revenue and employment to our people, and a national stand-by in the event of its being necessary to increase our supply of powder. He had the authority of the Secretary of State to move the Clause on behalf of the Explosives Committee, and on their behalf be had had some consultation with the powers that be, and he was not without hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might smile on the Clause, which represented the deliberations of the Explosives Committee. He might say at once that in all matters connected with science and real development in connection with the work of the Explosives Committee, they had always found the Chancellor of the Exchequer most benevolent, and it was really a pleasure to ask him for money. Now when they came to him with a very modest request, not to take away revenue, but to add to the manufactures of the country, which, in themselves, would be good for revenue, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would be equally complacent. The purpose of the Explosives Committee was really to procure pure nitro-cellulose, and to enable people in this country to manufacture it, thereby relieving this country of the necessity of importing it from Germany, from which it was imported without any alcohol, and therefore paid no duty. The difficulty with which the Committee were face to face was that in the present state of the law the Inland Revenue authorities laid a very heavy duty on pure alcohol which rendered it prohibitive for the purposes of the ordinary manufacture, although they allowed the use of alcohol which had been rendered unpotable or undrinkable, and which, for that purpose, was mixed with spirits of wood containing a number of impurities. The Explosives Committee found that that did not merely concern them as producers of explosives, but they found also that it touched six or seven other industries which might become great, and they, therefore, thought it right to go a little out of their way to 436 try and do what was best in the manufacturers' interest, and to draw their provision in such a form as to benefit the chemical industry generally. He should like to tell the Committee the state of the law. In the manufacture of knife handles, billiard balls, and those beautiful combs which ladies sometimes were, but which would not bear the proximity of a candle or a match without disastrous consequences, foreign nations had an enormous advantage over this country owing to the necessity of using alcohol with the impurities in it of which he had spoken; and which rendered it impossible to produce in this country knife handles, billiard balls, and combs of that brightness and whiteness which were necessary to enable them to compete with foreign goods. The advantage of the foreigner was that be could get pure alcohol cheap. Germany, which in all matters involving the application of science to practical purposes, whether as regarded education or manufacture was a generation ahead of this country, saw that a long time ago, and the result was that Germany had taken a half a dozen manufactures from us at a very considerable loss. The Amendment would affect not only powder manufacturers, but manufacturers of billiard balls, night candles, combs, and other things resembling ivory. There were also a number of other important manufactures affected. There was the enormous colour industry. The colours used in this country were prepared from coal tar, and involved the free use of alcohol in order to get their full perfection. As the result of the want of facilities for the use of pure alcohol in this country, that industry had practically shifted to Germany. According to figures recently given, eighty per cent. of the colours used by the Bradford dyers were imported from Germany, and that notwithstanding that aniline colours were the invention of a British inventor, and were prepared from British coal tar exported to Germany for the purpose of being manufactured, and then returned to this country. That was an industry which they might hope by the Amendment to help to re-establish in this country. Then be came to another industry—the manufacture of what was called the 437 essential oils, and the whole industry of preparing perfumes and scents. That depended enormously on the use of free alcohol—he did not mean alcohol which anybody could get, and do what they liked with, because the Amendment provided the most stringent control of the Inland Revenue authorities with reference to superintending the processes and to seeing that no abuse occurred. The scent and perfume industry in this country was only half what it should be. Take drugs, especially what were called synthetic remedies, composed of various well-known products. Hon. Members had heard of antipyrine for headaches, and sulphonal for sleeplessness, both being occasionally the consequences of their debates. Those valuable commodities, of which doubtless bon. Members had practical knowledge, were scarcely produced in this country at all, owing to the difficulties occasioned by the existing law. Again, all the chloral used in this country had to be made a broad, and as regarded chloroform the case was more disastrous still. Chloroform could be produced in this country, because they had what was tantamount to a Protective duty; but they could not export it. If it were exported to Australia it would cost 2s. 1d. per pound to put it down on the Australian shore; whereas the German manufacturer could put it down at 1s. 1d. That was because people formerly did not understand such things as they were understood today, and it was the business of those who had the interests of the country at heart to lose no opportunity of bringing them forward in order that the necessary changes might be made. Again, the scientists of the country engaged in investigating the secrets of nature were hampered in their work by being unable to get the facilities they required for the use of pure alcohol. That hampered research work in this country, with the result that a great deal of the most valuable research work had to be carried on abroad, where greater freedom was allowed. These facts, he submitted, made out a case for the relaxation of the existing Revenue law; and if the proposed relaxation were made, the condition; imposed by the clause were so stringent as to prevent people from being given; temptation to drink, and it would be 438 practically impossible that there could be any abuse. If the clause were carried, it would lead to a larger production of alcohol. That would help the sugar industry, would help the West Indies, and would act as a stimulus to various industries in a manner not realised in this country, but which had been realised in Germany, Switzerland, and America. He hoped, also, it would be, the beginning of a more enlightened educational policy, by restoring to this country a few industries it had lost, but which they ought not to lose sight of. He trusted the Clause would commend itself to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose views on the subject were of a very enlightened kind, and they had endeavoured to frame it in such a fashion as would meet the objections of those who might regard with suspicion any attempt to increase the production of alcohol in this country.
§ brought up and read a first time.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ MR. COCHRANE (Ayrshire, N.)
said he was very glad indeed that the Clause had been brought forward by the hon. and learned Member, who had such unique opportunities for studying 439 the question. He thought that it was highly desirable that the hon. and learned Gentleman should have taken up the question of free alcohol—he did not mean alcohol free to the public in any sense, but merely free in a technical sense. The hon. and learned Member, who had had great experience on the Explosives Committee, where he did such valuable service, placed the case of many industries before the Committee. He would only mention one other to illustrate the point. The particular case he wished to mention was the manufacture of fulminate of mercury, which required assistance in the same way, and was used for the making of caps for explosives for the Army and Navy services. He believed the only factory making fulminate of mercury was situated in Scotland. In making it, it was necessary that nitric acid and other ingredients should be dissolved in alcohol. A heavy duty had to be paid on that alcohol, or else methylated spirit had to be used. That spirit consisted of 90 per cent. of free alcohol and 10 per cent. of crude spirit. The latter cost 4s. 10d. a gallon, whereas free alcohol cost only 1s. 10d. The 10 per cent. was not only useless in the process, but it was harmful, because of its deleterious effect on nitric acid. The result was that the English manufacturer was put to an extra cost of something like 8d. or 9d. a gallon, whereas his German competitor was entitled to use the cheapest form of free alcohol without duty. After all, the supply of ammunition to the Army and Navy Was a national industry; but, owing to the advantage possessed by the foreign manufacturer, his imports had increased 100 per cent. in eight years. That was an instance of one of those cases which, although they might appear small in themselves, made a vast difference to the commerce of the country. No possible loss could fall on the Chancellor of the Exchequer by accepting this Clause; and no danger could possibly exist that under it alcohol would be used in any other than a legitimate manner. Manufacturers were perfectly willing to have inspection, and, in their own interests, they would take care that the alcohol was not used in an improper manner, He thought it was not necessary to further urge the question so clearly put forward by the hon. and learned Member, 440 and he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see his way to take the step proposed in the interests of the commerce of the country.
§ (10.10.) MR. CAWLEY (Lancashire, Prestwich)
said he had in his constituency two or three aniline dye manufacturers, and he had often heard of the great disability under which they competed with German and other manufacturers. He had also for many years been a very large buyer of aniline colours, and he could corroborate the statement of his hon. and learned friend that 80 per cent. of the aniline dyes used in this country came from abroad; and there was no doubt that the cost of alcohol had an enormous influence in the production of these colours. If the aniline dye manufacturers of this country could have cheap alcohol, they would certainly be able to compete with the foreigner. Millions of capital and thousands of workmen were employed abroad which ought to be employed in this country. The raw material was exported from this country and imported as dyes. It was owing to the duty on alcohol, and also, perhaps, to bad patent laws, that they had lost many industries of great value; but if the law were altered in the direction indicated they would have a chance of getting them back again.
§ COLONEL SADLER (Middlesborough)
said that for many years he had been interested in manufactures in which the use of free alcohol, without duty, would have been of very great importance indeed. He could quite see the difficulties of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in order that there should be no abuse. He remembered a very painful case within his own experience where alcohol used in a manufacture resulted in great detriment to the workmen employed. The applications of alcohol in manufacture were of a very diverse character and covered a great area of ground; and, speaking from his own experience, the lack of pure alcohol exercised a remarkable influence on the restriction of the trade in which he was interested. An hon. Member opposite spoke of the manufacture of aniline colours, of which he knew a great deal. There were certain colours now produced in 441 Germany which were first of all produced in this country, but the manufacture of which had to be transferred to Germany owing to the high price of alcohol. If cheap alcohol could be obtained in this country under suitable restrictions, he was perfectly satisfied that a very important development would take place in many industries. As a solvent it was one of the best for certain specific purposes of any known solvent. Again, as regarded synthetical chemistry, English chemists had not had the opportunity of developing that science which they would have had if pure alcohol could be obtained at a low price. As a motive power it had largely come into use on the Continent. He had never heard that anyone in this country had ever attempted to utilise it for motors or engines, as he had seen it utilised in France. As power for a motor ear, it possessed very great advantages. Alcohol had an agreeable smell, and if more of it were used in an engine than should have been used, there was no objectionable partially combusted material resulting from it. It had been mentioned that perfumes were manufactured from alcohol, and he knew, of his own knowledge, of one perfume which was now manufactured in France, but which was invented in this country, and could not be manufactured here on a large scale simply because alcohol was too expensive He appreciated the difficulties of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he felt that a very great advantage would result to many industries if alcohol could be obtained at a comparatively low price. There was one other point he should like to mention, and that was that the flash point of alcohol was very much safer than in the case of any other spirit used for motive power, and in that respect it commended itself to those who did not desire a dangerous article. He hoped, therefore, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would accept the Clause.
§ MR. MOULTON (Cornwall, Launceston)
said after the convincing speeches they had heard on the subject of allowing the free use of alcohol as an instrument of manufacture, he would not have intervened, were it not that he wished to suggest to the Chancellor of 442 the Exchequer that, when he was about to take the step which would help to free important manufactures in England from restrictions which were thrown upon them, with the result that they were behindhand as compared with their continental rivals, he should do it thoroughly. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer realised what the hindrance in the way of pure alcohol coming into England was doing in the way of ousting trade from the country, he would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that in removing the restrictions on alcohol, he should also remove the restrictions on other most valuable agents used in manufacture, such as chloroform, sulphuric ether, and acetic ether. These were agents of great importance in many trades. Chemistry had become infinitely more complex since the days when the present statutes were framed. The form of the original statutes has rarely been revised, and the schedules, as far as the articles contained in them were concerned, remained to the present day unaltered. The result was that the chemical manufacturer in England had one hand tied behind him when competing with his foreign rival. Reference had been made to coal tar products. A greater number of reactions occurred in the presence of alcohol than in any other way; in fact, many of them could not occur at all without the presence of alcohol. That was not all. Strangely enough, out of such an unwholesome-looking article as coal tar, they had not only got certain drugs of great value, but they had almost got to such a pitch of knowledge that they could prophesy the existence of drugs of very special qualities which were to be obtained in a particular way from coal tar products. By putting on a heavy tax on pure alcohol, they had made it impossible for the English manufacturer to manufacture pure drugs in this country. But it was not only alcohol that must thus be freed. Sulphuric ether and acetic ether had, in the hands of a skilful chemist, uses almost as numerous as alcohol, and should also be taken into consideration; and manufacturers ought to be informed that they were to have the privilege of using pure agents at cost price which other nations possessed. He trusted that the Chancellor; of the Exchequer, in accepting the clause, 443 would consult the very skilful chemists at his command, in order to see whether, at the same time, burdens could not be taken off other agents of great value when used for the purposes of manufacture. The principle of this taxation ought to be to tax alcohol as a luxury, and not when it was used for manufacturing purposes; and, in order that trade might be retained in this country, it ought to be admitted free from taxation. That was the general principle, and he felt sure that the logical mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would carry it further so as to include other re-agents. The articles he had mentioned would not entail any heavy sacrifice on the revenue, but would set free other re-agents besides alcohol when intended to be used as a means of manufacture.
§ (10.30.) SIR M. HICKS BEACH
I think the Committee will agree with me that this debate has been one of unusual interest. The hon. and learned Gentleman who initiated it has done admirable service, as a member of the Explosives Committee, to the whole county, and I do not think that the least of the services rendered by the hon. and learned Gentleman has been the manner in which he has brought this matter forward this evening. I feel very much the responsibility of my position as Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter. Nothing could be worse, to my mind, than that the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day should, in the idea of favouring or improving trade in this country, give opportunities for the use of alcohol in such a way as would increase drunkenness in the country. I do not speak of the revenue alone, although that is a matter of great importance; but, I must confess, I was struck by a sentence which fell from my hon. friend the Member for Middlesborough, in which he spoke of a case in which the use of alcohol without payment of duty had been by no means conducive to the benefit of the persons employed in a factory. However that may be, I have carefully investigated the probable effect of the clause proposed by the hon. Gentleman opposite, and I think it is a clause to which I may safely and 444 properly assent. I do not wish now to enter into the further matter very properly brought before the Committee by so high an authority as the hon. Member for Launceston, but I will see if it is possible to extend the clause in the manner suggested. This may require a longer time for consideration than will elapse before the Report stage, and I will not definitely promise that anything shall be done in the present session. But I am sure the Committee will feel that the law on this subject is somewhat antiquated, that chemistry, and science generally, have made enormous strides since it was passed, and that it may well be that the progress of our industries may be hindered and their development prevented by the present restrictions in a manner never anticipated by those who framed them, and which the Government will be bound to examine into with a view to a remedy. In the meantime, I have great pleasure in agreeing to the clause.
§ MR. CAINE (Cornwall, Camborne)
said that, on behalf of the temperance party, he did not see any serious objection to the general principle involved in the Amendment which was moved in the statesmanlike and picturesque speech by his hon. and learned friend. But he was rather disappointed at the Chancellor of the Exchequer accepting the proposal without going further in the way of precautions and safeguards, which would undoubtedly be necessary if the clause were to be admitted into the present Bill. He thought it would be very much wiser, and quite as effectual in the long run, if, instead of accepting the Amendment, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised to bring in a short Bill dealing with the matter comprehensively, which could be sent to the Grand Committee on Trade, and experts sent with it, and the whole matter threshed out. He saw several I dangers in the acceptance of the Amendment, regarding which he thought they ought to have had some more information. It had been suggested that scents and perfumery should be allowed to contain alcohol duty free. There was, however, no doubt whatever that there was a distinct line of drunkenness in this country which proceeded directly from scents and perfumery. In India it had 445 reached such a stage that the Government had to largely increase the duty on scents and perfumery in order to restrict their use. A line of drunkenness, which was one of the most serious problems with which temperance reformers had to deal, and which, speaking from a wide knowledge of inebriate homes, he could say was very prevalent amongst women, was chloral drunkenness, which was well known to every medical man. Then there was a distinct line, especially in Ireland, of ether drunkenness as well. He himself had come across many most pitiable cases, especially among women, and it was one of the most difficult forms of intoxication with which temperance reformers had to deal. They had been told with regard to paints and colours that the form of alcohol now admitted free was not satisfactory, but it was impossible to touch all these questions on an Amendment to the Finance Bill. It would have been very much better if, instead of accepting the Amendment, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised to bring in a Bill which could be properly looked into. For his own part he trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take very wise and careful precautions to prevent the improper use of alcohol in the interests of the revenue as well as of the sobriety of the country; and he hoped that when the Committee agreed to assent to a proposition of such a far-reaching kind, they would realise their responsibilities.
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACH
I do not think the hon. Member has read this Clause carefully. The object of the Clause, as I understand the position, is that in certain manufactures the obligation to use methylated spirit really does prevent proper development. Does the hon. Gentleman admit that?
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACH
That being so, the second paragraph of the Clause provides that—The authority shall only be granted subject to a compliance with such regulations as the Commissioners may require the applicant to observe for the security of the revenue, and upon condition that he will, to the satisfaction of the Commissioners if so required by them, lender the spirits impotable before and during use.446 I am bound to say that I think the Clause as it stands gives full authority to the Inland Revenue to take all necessary precautions to prevent abuse. I will, moreover, undertake that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will work this clause in a very tentative manner, so as to secure that proper experience of its working shall be acquired before any abuse can possibly occur.
§ MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)
said he was inclined to think that the apprehension of his hon. friend was exaggerated. As to his hon. friend's allusion to ether drinking in Ireland, that practice did prevail to an alarming extent in the ultra-loyal part of Ulster, though whether there was any necessary connection between the locality and the practice he could not say. His hon. friend the Member for East Cavan was a manufacturer of excellent whisky, the sale of which was no doubt rather interfered with by the indulgence in another form of alcohol. He had heard of two theories to explain the consumption of ether in Ulster. One was that some eminent teetotalers, like his hon. friend, put so many restrictions on the sale of whisky that the unfortunate people were driven to resort to some other form of alcohol. The other reason was that drunkenness produced by ether was cheaper, and could be more frequently repeated, than drunkenness resulting from whisky. He could, however, inform his hon. friend that drunkenness had largely diminished in Ireland. His hon. friend did not quite appear to appreciate the vast importance of the question from a manufacturing point of view. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough referred to the use of alcohol as a motive power in France. France was ahead of this country in many respects, and the French had solved the problem of constructing motor cars to be driven by alcohol, and some of the best motor cars were now driven in that way. Then, again, alcohol was also used in France as an illuminant. He read of a case recently in which the electric light supply in a large shop failed at twelve o'clock, but at six o'clock in the evening the shop was perfectly lighted with alcohol lamps. It would be impossible at present 447 to utilise alcohol for that purpose in England, owing to the difficulties which surrounded its use. He believed that some of the best spirit, other than for drinking purposes, could be produced from potatoes. Anything that touched potatoes touched Ireland, and, therefore, he would support the Amendment, because it would be a great relief to agriculturists if potatoes could be used for producing alcohol to be employed in the manufactures of the country. He was glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer had accepted the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member, whose services had not received more than their due recognition.
§ MR. NORMAN (Wolverhampton, S.)
said there was one question which closely concerned his constituents, and that was whether it would be possible, under the Clause, to introduce into this country on more favourable conditions the form of solidified alcohol known as spiritine. He was told that spiritine had a very largo popular use in Germany for certain domestic purposes, but that it could not be used in this country owing to the high duty imposed on it. The point was one of considerable interest to many manufacturers in his division, who were prepared to put upon the market the appliances for using spiritine. With reference to the use of alcohol for motor cars, the hon. Member for the Scotland Division overlooked the fact that alcohol was cheaper in France than petrol, owing to the heavy tax upon the latter, although the contrary was the case in England.
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACH
I do not like to answer the question of the hon. Member offhand, but I confess I do not wish at present to agree to any extension of the Clause.
§ MR. MOULTON
said that, if he mistook not, spiritine was a mixture of alcohol with a little resin and a certain amount of soap, and was used largely, he believed, for the purpose of heating curling tongs. No doubt it was also used for other purposes, but if there was anything in which a little methylated spirit would do no harm it was spiritine, as it would not make any difference to its inflammability. With regard to the 448 fears of his hon. friend the Member for the Camborne Division that the operation of the Clause might lead to abuse, he should like to point out that in almost all the uses of alcohol in manufacture, so soon as it was added to the vat it was just as unpotable as if methylated spirit had been added to it, and, therefore, so soon as it came into actual use all danger that it might be abused would disappear.
§ (10.45.) MR. HALDANE
also assured his hon. friend that he need be under no anxiety. In Germany, where chemistry was carried to a very high state of perfection, they used acids and other chemical compounds in particular industries, which, while they did no damage to the alcohol, rendered it absolutely unpotable.
§ Clause read a second time.
§ On the Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill":
§ MR. M'KENNA moved to omit the words. "and upon condition that he will, to the satisfaction of the Commissioners, if so required by them, render the spirits unpotable before and during use." In the first two lines of the sub-clause the Commissioners were given full power to require the applicant to do anything necessary for the security of the revenue. That was a general power. Immediately after the general power the Commissioners were given this limited power. He had always understood that where a general power was given, and then subsequently a limited power of the same sort, the limited power confined the operation of the general power, and he should say that under the two powers as they now stood the authority of the Commissioners was limited instead of increased by the words of which he moved the omission. If he was 449 wrong in that contention, and if it was possible for the Commissioners to render the alcohol unpotable in every case without detriment to its quality for manufacturing purposes, then he thought the condition should be made absolute. As a matter of form, he moved to omit the words.
New Clause, line 11, to omit the words "and upon condition that he will, to the satisfaction of the Commissioners, if so required by them, render the spirits unpotable before and during use." (Mr. M'Kenna.)
§ Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed new Clause.
§ MR. HALDANE
thought it desirable that the words should be retained, because they called the attention of the Commissioners to the desirability in every ease in which it was possible of rendering the stuff absolutely unpotable. But there were eases in which the alcohol used could not be rendered unpotable, but it, disappeared out of the finished product, or changed its nature so that it could not be extracted and used for drinking purposes. Those were the cases in which the Commissioners were to have this discretionary power. Before the Explosives Committee it had been stated that nitrocellulose, which was the basis of cordite, could not be prepared in its finest qualities, except with absolutely pure alcohol, but it was prepared in Germany under conditions which ensured that no alcohol should remain in the finished product, and prevented the workmen getting at the stuff in the course of manufacture. These were cases which might well occur in this country, and it was desirable that a, free hand should be left to the Inland Revenue authorities to deal with them. He had no doubt that the permission would be granted most sparingly, and only under the most stringent control.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause added.450
§ Schedule 1—
§ (10.55.) MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs) moved to omit "wheat." There were many on that side of the House who regarded this particular part of the Bill as the very worst feature in it, and he looked upon the word, of which he now moved the omission, as the blackest spot in the entire Budget. The question was of immense importance, because it practically revolutionised the whole fiscal policy of the country. There was a distinction between wheat and the other articles to which the Schedule referred, inasmuch as wheat was an article of human consumption, whilst other articles were used only for animal consumption, and those who would have to pay the duty on the latter were much better able to afford it than many of those who would have to pay the tax on wheat. In the case of bread, the duty fell with altogether disproportionate severity upon the poorer class, because their diet was far more largely composed of bread than anything else. The tax had been called a graduated tax, but it was graduated in exactly the wrong direction, because the rich would pay the least, and the poor the most. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in defending this portion of the tax, had declared that every person who could maintain himself was bound to contribute towards the expenditure of the State. Every Member of the House would agree with that proposition. But, as a, matter of tact, did not such persons already contribute very largely indeed in proportion to their means? The Customs and Excise duties amounted to £62,593,000, an enormous proportion of which was paid by the working classes. The rich man could not drink twice as much tea, beer, or whiskey, or consume twice as much tobacco, as the working man. The consumption of these articles, upon which the Customs and Excise duties were levied, depended upon the physical ability of the individual to consume rather than upon his ability to pay, so that the poor man paid practically the same as the rich man upon such articles. The canon of the Chancellor of the 451 Exchequer was, therefore, fully met, because at the present time the working classes, in proportion to their means, contributed not only their full share but more than their full share of the taxation of the country. The Opposition had been twitted with having no alternatives to offer. In this case no alternative was needed. The right hon. Gentleman was relieved of the pressure which until recently had weighed upon him, and there was no reason whatever why he should make such an enormous change in the fiscal policy of the country as was involved in the imposition of a tax of this character. Taxes of that kind should be left to the very last extremity, and should be admitted only, say, when the country was threatened by a great combination of Powers, and it was necessary to make every possible effort to repel the invader at all cost. But there was no such pressure, and, moreover, an amount of money had been borrowed which was not actually required for the expenditure of the year, and yet the tax was maintained. Several alternatives had been suggested, such as an additional penny on the income tax—
Order, order! The hon. Member is not entitled to reopen the whole question of the tax. The Committee has decided that there is to be a tax on grain; the only question is as to what grain. The hon Member must find arguments to show that wheat ought not to be included amongst the grain.
§ MR. HERBERT LEWIS
contended that as wheat was the only component of bread, which was the chief food of the working classes, further taxation ought to have been imposed on luxuries rather than on wheat. The natural effect of an increase in the price of broad would be, in many eases, to drive families to seek outdoor or indoor relief, and, by that means, to increase the load of the already overburdened taxpayer. He regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in imposing this tax on wheat, had given away the very citadel of our great free Trade policy. He had always regarded the right hon. Gentleman as the champion of Tree Trade, and he could not help protesting when he saw him handing over 452 the keys of the citadel to the enemy. The Chancellor had been regarded as the bulwark against these economic heresies, and now that that bulwark had gone, the ship of State was in much worse case. He trusted the Committee would see the advisability, if not at present, at some future time, of repealing the tax on wheat—a tax which he felt convinced would result in impairing the physical vitality of the population, especially in the larger towns, lower the stamina of the nation, and bring nothing but economic disaster, if pursued to its logical conclusion.
In page 5, line 5, to leave out the word 'Wheat.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis)
§ Question proposed—"That the word 'Wheat' stand part of the Schedule."
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACH
hoped the hon. Member would not consider him wanting in courtesy if he declined to follow him into arguments which the Committee had heard over and over again, and to which he had given the best answers in his power. He would not occupy the time of the Committee by repeating those answers, for the simple reason that the Committee had already decided that there should be a duty on grain, and the only question was what grain. If that meant anything at all it meant a tax on wheat. He, therefore, could not accept the Amendment.
§ MR. SYDNEY BUXTON
was glad the Amendment had been moved, and he hoped that on each of the different articles they would have a short discussion and take a division, because the proposal to impose this tax was by far the most retrograde fiscal step which had been taken in the last fifty years. Though they accepted to the fullest extent the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, they were not content that this tax was introduced only for revenue purposes. In regard to flour, differential treatment had already been brought in. He looked upon this retrograde step with such suspicion that he should vote 453 against each article as it came up in the Schedule, and he hoped all on that side would do the same.
§ (11.10.) MR. M'KENNA
said that he entirely agreed with what had fallen from the hon. Member for Poplar in regard to these Amendments. He was quite aware that the same arguments applied to most of the Amendments to this Clause but he thought that they ought, as a protest against this tax upon food, to divide the House upon this Amendment and so far as the other Amendments which stood in his name were concerned he should insist upon a division on each of them.
§ MR. NORMAN
said that before this debate was concluded he desired to call attention to certain arguments by which this tax had been defended. In reply to his right hon. friend the Member for East Wolverhampton the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House had stated that a tax upon wheat would not ultimately fall upon the consumer. He said—The idea that this tax must fall upon the consumer I can assure the hon. Gentleman is an economic heresy of the grossest character, and he really ought to brush up his political economy which at one time was all that could be desired.Mr. Mill was a well-known authority upon political economy and he says—A tax on any one commodity, whether laid on its production, its importation, its carriage from place to place, or its sale, and whether the tax be a fixed sum of money for a given quantity of the commodity, or an ad valorem duty, will, as a general rule, raise the value and price of the commodity by at least the amount of the tax.Further on Mr. Mill says—In these several modes, taxes on commodities often cost to the consumer, through the increased price of the article, much more than they bring into the Treasury of the State.Such taxes bring less into the public Treasury, compared with what they take from the consumers, than any other imports to which civilised nations are usually subject.The right hon. Gentleman might say that Mr. Mill was rather an old fashioned authority, and he had therefore provided himself with one or two more modern authorities and one of them was Professor 454 Nicholson, who said in the Encyclopœdia Britannica:—When production taxes take place under free competition the tax will, owing to the tendency of profits to equality, be transferred to the consumer.There was a still more modern authority in Mr. Elliott, the Secretary to the Board of Agriculture, who in the Dictionary of Political Economy stated that—It is usually considered that the burden of Customs' duties will fall eventually upon the consumers.He ventured to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should brush up his own political economy. In his Budget speech the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he was certain that the price of bread would not rise in consequence of this tax; yet on the other hand he said that the basis of taxation was to be broadened by taxing articles of universal consumption. It was only fair that the right hon. Gentleman should tell the Committee upon which foot in this matter he had elected to stand. Hon. Gentlemen opposite had see-sawed in their arguments on this point, but the hon. Member for Oldham—
Order, order! The hon. Member seems to have forgotten that the Committee have decided by passing the first clause that the tax shall be imposed upon grain. The only question now is whether wheat is to be excluded, and the hon. Member is not entitled to go back upon the decision of the Committee.
§ MR. NORMAN
said that he was endeavouring to answer the arguments of hon. Gentlemen in favour of taxing wheat.
I do not think the hon. Member is entitled to go back and answer speeches which were delivered upon a former occasion.
§ MR. NORMAN
said he thought he should be in order in endeavouring to show that wheat should not be taxed, but he would bow to the Chairman's ruling and leave that branch of the 455 subject. In conclusion, he would like to quote another sentence used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said that doubtless attempts would be made to fan the flames of popular prejudice against taxing the bread of the people. For his own part, he desired to add that in view of this tax upon wheat casting burdens upon the very poor, and remembering that now the door to Protection, which they thought
§ had been closed for ever was again being opened; and in spite of the gibes of the right hon. Gentleman about their ignorance of political economy, he proposed to fan these flames just as long and as hard as he could.
§ (11.23.) Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 200; Noes, 122. Division List No. 218.457
|Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.||Doxford, Sir William Theodore||Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)|
|Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel||Duke, Henry Edward||Lawson, John Grant|
|Arkwright, John Stanhope||Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin||Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)|
|Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.||Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.||Legge, Col. Hon Heneage|
|Arrol, Sir William||Faber, George Denison (York)||Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie|
|Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John||Fellowes, Hon Ailwyn Edward||Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.|
|Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy||Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J (Manc'r||Llewellyn, Evan Henry|
|Balcarres, Lord||Finch, George H.||Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.|
|Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r||Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne||Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine|
|Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)||Firbank, Joseph Thomas||Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)|
|Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds||Fisher, William Hayes||Lonsdale, John Brownlee|
|Banbury, Frederick George||Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry||Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)|
|Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks||Flower, Ernest||Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)|
|Brownaggree, Sir M. M.||Forster, Henry William||Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth|
|Bignold, Arthur||Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S W.||Macdona, John Cumming|
|Bigwood, James||Galloway, William Johnson||MacIver, David Liverpool)|
|Blundell, Colonel Henry||Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick||Maconochie, A. W.|
|Brassey, Albert||Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn)||M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)|
|Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John||Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlt's||M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)|
|Brotherton, Edward Allen||Gore, Hn. G R C. Ormsby-(Salop||M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire|
|Butcher, John George||Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)||Majendie, James A. H.|
|Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.||Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon||Martin, Richard Biddulph|
|Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)||Goulding, Edward Alfred||Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.|
|Cavendish, V. C W. (Derbyshire||Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry||Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire|
|Cayzer, Sir Charles William||Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)||Melville, Beresford Valentine|
|Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)||Grenfell, William Henry||Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton|
|Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)||Gretton, John||Molesworth, Sir Lewis|
|Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.||Greville, Hon. Ronald||Moon, Edward Robert Pacy|
|Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r||Groves, James Grimble||More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)|
|Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry||Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill||Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w|
|Chapman, Edward||Gunter, Sir Robert||Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.|
|Charrington, Spencer||Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.||Morrell, George Herbert|
|Clive, Captain Percy A.||Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x.||Morrison, James Archibald|
|Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.||Hamilton, Marq of (L'ndsnderry||Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford|
|Coghill, Douglas Harry||Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robe'rt Wm.||Mount, William Arthur|
|Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse||Harris, Fredrick Leverton||Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.|
|Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready||Haslam, Sir Alfred S.||Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute|
|Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole||Hay, Hon. Claude George||Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)|
|Compton, Lord Alwyne||Helder, Augustus||Newdigate, Francis Alexander|
|Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)||Henderson, Alexander||Nicol, Donald Ninian|
|Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge||Hoare, Sir Samuel||Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay|
|Cranborne, Viscount||Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.||Parkes, Ebenezer|
|Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)||Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside||Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley|
|Crossley, Sir Saville||Hoult, Joseph||Pilkington, Lieut.-Col Richard|
|Dalkeith, Earl of||Houston, Robert Paterson||Plummer, Walter R.|
|Dalrymple, Sir Charles||Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm||Pretyman, Ernest George|
|Denny, Colonel||Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)||Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward|
|Dewar, T R (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo.||Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies||Purvis, Robert|
|Dickinson, Robert Edmond||Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)||Randles, John S.|
|Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.||Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop||Rankin, Sir James|
|Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-||Keswick, William||Ratcliff, R. F.|
|Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph||Kimber, Henry||Reid, James (Greenock)|
|Dorington, Sir John Edward||Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.||Renwick, George|
|Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-||Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)||Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Salybridg|
|Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson||Stock, James Henry||Whitmore, Charles Algernon|
|Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)||Sturt, Hon. Humphrey Napier||Willoughby de Eresby, Lord|
|Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)||Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)||Wills, Sir Frederick|
|Rolleston, Sir John F. L.||Talbot, Rt Hn. J G. (Oxfd Univ.||Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)|
|Ropner, Colonel Robert||Thornton, Percy M.||Wilson, John (Glasgow)|
|Round, James||Tollemache, Henry James||Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)|
|Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander||Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray||Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)|
|Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert||Valentia, Viscount||Wrightson, Sir Thomas|
|Sharpe, William Edward T.||Warde, Colonel C. E.||Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George|
|Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)||Warr, Augustus Frederick||Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong|
|Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside||Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)|
|Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)||Webb, Colonel William George||TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther|
|Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart||Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)|
|Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.||Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-|
|Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.||Hayne, Rt Hn. Charles Seale-||O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)|
|Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud||Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.||O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)|
|Atherley-Jones, L.||Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)||O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N|
|Barry, E. (Cork, S.)||Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)||O'Malley, William|
|Bayley, Thomas Derbyshire||Horniman, Frederick George||O'Mara, James|
|Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.||Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)||O'Shaughnessy, P. J.|
|Boland, John||Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)||O'Shee, James John|
|Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn||Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)||Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)|
|Brand, Hon. Arthur G.||Joyce, Michael||Pirie, Duncan V.|
|Broadhurst, Henry||Kearley, Hudson E.||Power, Patrick Joseph|
|Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson||Lambert, George||Rea, Russell|
|Butcher, John George||Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)||Reckitt, Harold James|
|Caine, William Sproston||Leamy, Edmund||Reddy, M.|
|Caldwell, James||Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington||Redmond, John E. (Waterford)|
|Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)||Leigh, Sir Joseph||Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)|
|Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.||Leng, Sir John||Robson, William Snowdon|
|Causton, Richard Knight||Levy, Maurice||Runciman, Walter|
|Cawley, Frederick||Lough, Thomas||Schwann, Charles E.|
|Channing, Francis Allston||Lundon, W.||Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)|
|Cogan, Denis J.||MacNeill, John Gordon Swift||Sheehan, Daniel Daniel|
|Condon, Thomas Joseph||MacVeagh, Jeremiah||Shipman, Dr. John G.|
|Craig, Robert Hunter||M'Arthur' William (Cornwall)||Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)|
|Crean, Eugene||M'Cann, James||Soames, Arthur Wellesley|
|Delany, William||M'Crae, George||Soares, Ernest J.|
|Dillon, John||M'Hugh, Patrick A.||Spencer, Rt Hn. C R. (Northants|
|Doogan, P. C.||M'Kean, John||Stevenson, Francis S.|
|Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)||M'Kenna, Reginald||Strachey, Sir Edward|
|Duncan, J. Hastings||M'Killop W. (Sligo, North)||Sullivan, Donal|
|Emmott, Alfred||M'Laren, Charles Benjamin||Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower|
|Esmonde, Sir Thomas||Mansfield, Horace Rendall||Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N|
|Evans, Samuel T. (Glanmorgan)||Markham, Arthur Basil||Toulmin, George|
|Fenwick, Charles||Mooney, John J.||Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)|
|Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)||Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)||Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.|
|Ffrench, Peter||Morley, Charles (Breconshire)||White, Patrick (Meath, North|
|Flynn, James Christopher||Murphy, John||Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)|
|Gilhooly, James||Nannetti, Joseph P.||Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)|
|Goddard, Daniel Ford||Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)||Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)|
|Griffith, Ellis J.||Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)||Young, Samuel|
|Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton||O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary Mid|
|Haldane, Richard Burdon||O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)||TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Herbert Lewis and Mr. Norman.|
|Hammond, John||O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)|
|Hayden, John Patrick||O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.|
§ (11.35.) MR. CHANNING moved to omit "Barley" from the Schedule He said he did so mainly in the interests of the stock farmers of the country. Those who were familiar with the difficulties which were experienced by agriculturists 458 during the latter period of the great depression which had occurred, in the last ten or twelve years, knew that nothing helped the stock farmers so much as the low price of foreign barley. In support of this view the hon. Member quoted the 459 evidence given before the Agricultural Commission by Mr. James Stratton, one of the ablest and most successful of the stock farmers in the country, who had in the worst times farmed more than 5000 acres in the South of England with a large capital. He stated to the Commission that the best policy for the farmer was to sell off his own crops, and to buy feeding stuffs from abroad, so that he might get a workable profit on his farm. In perhaps the worst years of the series the stock and dairy farmers had been able to buy Russian barley at four guineas the ton, and thus tide over the bad times. He thought it was pertinent to show to the Committee that serious injury would be done to the British Agriculturist by the imposition of the tax on corn460
§ imported from abroad. Certain kinds of foreign barley were also of extreme value to brewers for producing light and fine qualities of beer. On both those grounds, he thought a considerable amount of argument could be advanced for the exclusion of bailey from the tax. He begged to move—
In page 5, line 6, to leave out the word 'Barley.'"—(Mr. Channing.)
§ (11.38.) Question put. "That the word 'Barley' stand part of the Schedule."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 210; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 219.)463
|Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir. A. F.||Cranborne, Viscount||Grenville, Hon. Ronald|
|Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel||Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)||Groves, James Grimble|
|Arkwright, John Stanhope||Crossley, Sir Savile||Gunter, Sir Robert|
|Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.||Dalkeith, Earl of||Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton|
|Arrol, Sir William||Dalrymple, Sir Charles||Guthrie, Walter Murray|
|Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John||Davenport, William Bromley-||Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.|
|Bagot, Capt. Jos'line FitzRoy||Denny, Colonel||Hamilton, Rt Hn. L'd G. (Midd'x|
|Balcarres, Lord||Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'mlets, S. G.||Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry|
|Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manc'r)||Dickinson, Robert Edmond||Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.|
|Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)||Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.||Harris, Frederick Leverton|
|Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)||Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-||Haslam, Sir Alfred S.|
|Balfour, Ken'th R. (Christch.)||Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph||Hay, Hon. Claude George|
|Banbury, Frederick George||Dorington, Sir John Edward||Helder, Augustus|
|Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Mic'l Hicks||Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-||Henderson, Alexander|
|Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.||Doxford, Sir William Theodore||Hoare, Sir Samuel|
|Bignold, Arthur||Duke, Henry Edward||Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.|
|Bigwood, James||Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin||Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Bri'side)|
|Blundell, Colonel Henry||Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.||Hoult, Joseph|
|Brassey, Albert||Faber, George Denison (York)||Houston, Robert Paterson|
|Brodrick, Rt. Hon. Sir John||Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.||Howard, Jno. (Kent, Faversh.)|
|Brotherton, Edward Allen||Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man.||Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham|
|Butcher, John George||Finch, George H.||Hudson, George Bickersteth)|
|Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.||Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne||Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies|
|Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)||Firbank, Joseph Thomas||Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)|
|Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.||Fisher, William Hayes||Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)|
|Cayzer, Sir Charles William||Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry||Keswick, William|
|Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)||Flower, Ernest||Kimber, Henry|
|Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)||Forster, Henry William||Lambton, Hon. Freder'k Wm.|
|Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.||Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)||Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)|
|Chamberlain, J. Aust. (Worc'r)||Galloway, William Johnson||Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)|
|Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry||Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.||Lawson, John Grant|
|Chapman, Edward||Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn||Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)|
|Charrington, Spencer||Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'mle.||Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage|
|Clive, Captain Percy A.||Gore, Hn. G. R C. Ormsby-(Salop||Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie|
|Cochrane, Hn. Thos, H. A. E.||Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)||Leveson-Gower, Fred K N. S.|
|Coghill, Douglas Harry||Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon||Llewellyn, Evan Henry|
|Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse||Goulding, Edward Alfred||Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.|
|Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready||Green, Walford, D. (Wednes'y||Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine|
|Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole||Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsb'y)||Long, Rt. Hn. Wal'r (Bris'l S.)|
|Compton, Lord Alwyne||Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)||Lonsdale, John Brownlee|
|Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)||Gronfell, William Henry||Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)|
|Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge||Gretton, John||Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft|
|Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th||Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Rich'd||Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier|
|Macdona, John Cumming||Plummer, Walter R.||Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)|
|MacIver, David (Liverpool)||Pretyman, Ernest George||Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxfd Univ.|
|Maconochie, A. W.||Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward||Thornton, Percy M.|
|M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)||Purvis, Robert||Tollemache, Henry James|
|M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim E.||Randles, John S.||Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray|
|M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire||Rankin, Sir James||Valentia, Viscount|
|Majendie, James A. H.||Ratcliff, R. F.||Warde, Colonel C. E.|
|Martin, Richard Biddulph||Reid, James (Greenock)||Warr, Augustus Frederick|
|Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.||Renwick, George||Wason, John Carth. (Orkney)|
|Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumf'shire||Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybr'dge||Webb, Colonel William Geo.|
|Melville, Beresford Valentine||Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomp.||Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.|
|Middlemore, John Throgmor'n||Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)||Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-|
|Molesworth, Sir Lewis||Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)||Whiteley, H. (As'tonund. Lyne|
|Moon, Edward Robert Pacy||Ropner, Colonel Robert||Whitmore, Charles Algernon|
|More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire||Round, James||Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord|
|Morgan, David J. (Walt'stow)||Royds, Clement Molyneux||Wills, Sir Frederick|
|Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'ths.||Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander||Wilson, A. Stan. (York, E. R.)|
|Morrell, George Herbert||Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert||Wilson, John (Glasgow)|
|Morrison, James Archibald||Sharpe, William Edward T.||Wilson, J. W. (Wor'tersh' N.)|
|Morton, Arthur H. A. (Dept.)||Sinclair, Louis (Romford)||Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.|
|Mount, William Arthur||Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)||Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)|
|Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.||Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyn'side||Wrightson, Sir Thomas|
|Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute||Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks)||Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George|
|Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)||Spear, John Ward||Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong|
|Newdigate, Francis Alexander||Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)|
|Nicol, Donald Ninian||Stewart, Sir Mk. J. M'Taggart|
|Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay||Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.||TELLERS FOR THE AYES— Sir Wm. Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.|
|Parkes, Ebenezer||Stock, James Henry|
|Peel, Hn. Wm. Rob. Wellesley||Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley|
|Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)||Hayden, John Patrick||Nannetti, Joseph P.|
|Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)||Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-||Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)|
|Atherley-Jones, L.||Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Chas. H.||Norman, Henry|
|Barry, E. (Cork, S.)||Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol E.)||O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'ary Mid.|
|Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.||Hope, Jno. Deans (Fife, West)||O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)|
|Boland, John||Horniman, Frederick John||O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary N.)|
|Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn||Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)||O'Connor, James (Wicklow W.|
|Brand, Hon. Arthur G.||O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)|
|Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)||O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)|
|Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson||Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)||O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)|
|Buxton, Sydney Charles||Joyce, Michael||O'Malley, William|
|Caine, William Sproston||Kearley, Hudson E.||O'Mara, James|
|Caldwell, James||Lambert, George||O'Shaughnessy, P. J.|
|Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)||Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.||O'Shee, James John|
|Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.||Leamy, Edmund||Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)|
|Causton, Richard Knight||Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)||Pirie, Duncan V.|
|Cawley, Frederick||Leigh, Sir Joseph||Power, Patrick Joseph|
|Cogan, Denis J.||Leng, Sir John||Rea, Russell|
|Condon, Thomas Joseph||Levy, Maurice||Reckitt, Harold James|
|Craig, Robert Hunter||Lewis, John Herbert||Reddy, M.|
|Crean, Eugene||Lough, Thomas||Redmond, Jno. E. (Waterford)|
|Delany, William||Lundon, W.||Redmond, William (Clare)|
|Dillon, John||MacNeill, John Gordon Swift||Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)|
|Doogan, P. C.||MacVeagh, Jeremiah||Robson, William Snowdon|
|Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)||M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall)||Runciman, Walter|
|Duncan, J. Hastings||M'Cann, James||Schwann, Charles E.|
|Emmott, Alfred||M'Crae, George||Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)|
|Esmonde, Sir Thomas||M'Hugh, Patrick A||Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)|
|Evans, Sir Fran. H. (Maidston||M'Kean, John||Sheehan, Daniel Daniel|
|Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan||M'Kenna, Reginald||Shipman, Dr. John G.|
|Fenwick, Charles||M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)||Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)|
|Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)||M'Laren, Charles Benjamin||Soames, Arthur Wellesley|
|Ffreneh, Peter||Manslield, Horace Rendall||Soares, Ernest J.|
|Gilhooly, James||Markham, Arthur Basil||Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (N'thants)|
|Goddard, Daniel Ford||Mooney, John J.||Stevenson, Francis S.|
|Griffith, Ellis J.||Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen||Strachey, Sir Edward|
|Hammond, John||Morley, Charles (Breconshire||Sullivan, Donal|
|Harmsworth, R. Leicester||Murphy, John||Thomas J. A. (Glamor. Gower|
|Toulmin George||Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)||TELLERS FOR THE NOES— Mr. Channing and Mr. Broadhurst.|
|Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.||Williams, Osmond (Merioneth|
|White, Patrick (Meath, N.||Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)|
§ (11.50.) SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN (Stirling Burghs)
I think it would be for the convenience of the House if the right hon. Gentleman would state what course the Government intend to follow in regard to the further progress of this Bill. I may say at once that I understand there will be a certain amount of discussion on the subject of maize. I think it would be a convenient course to stop the further consideration of the Bill tonight when we get to maize.
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACH
I always desire to meet the convenience of the House; but the Government are put in a position of considerable difficulty by the statements of hon. Members below the gangway that there is an intention to divide on every one of the items in the Schedule. That is not fair Parliamentary opposition. If we are to be met in that way, we shall have to take the necessary measures to meet these tactics. That is not our wish at all. Our wish is to proceed with the Bill in the ordinary way by fair discussion, and divisions, of course, when necessary. Therefore I would suggest that, if we are met fairly we would agree to report progress tonight before coming to the item of maize. Then we would put down the Bill for Monday and commence wit maize on that day, on the understanding that the debate in Committee would be concluded on that day. If that meets with approval I shall put down the Report for Wednesday, to enable hon. Members to out down any Amendments that may be necessary on the Report stage.
§ SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN
I fully acknowledge the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman has met my hon. friends on this side of the House. I can assure him with regard to anything that has been said, that it may have been a rhetorical outburst, and the very natural expression of the strong feeling that exists, but there is no desire to pursue any extreme or extravagant 464 course, and I think the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman is one that might very well be accepted.
§ MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford)
The point which the Irish Members are chiefly interested in in the remaining portion of this Schedule is the question of maize. We are exceedingly anxious that the debate on that should not be taken at this hour of the night, and that it should be taken at the commencement of the sitting on Monday. Therefore I welcome the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and so far as my friends and myself are concerned, if that arrangement can be made, we shall not interfere in any way with the possibility of concluding the debate in Committee on the Bill on Monday. I hope the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, which personally I think is a reasonable one, will be carried out.
§ MR. LOUGH moved to omit "oats" from the Schedule. In view of the additional cost of about £1 per horse per annum which this duty would impose on cab proprietors and hackney carriage owners, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had recently promised a deputation that something must be done to meet their case. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the tax on oats was one which the cab proprietors would not be able to pass on to others, their difficulty being that their fares were limited by Act of Parliament and other arrangements. He stated that possibly their case would not be met by an alteration of the tax but by some other means. He said he would see the Home Secretary in regard to it. The hon. Member could only assume that the right hon. Gentleman intended to remit the hackney carriage tax. He asked the Chancellor to state what he meant by that definite promise.
In page 5, line 7, to leave out the word 'oats.'"—(Mr. Channing.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'oats' stand part of the Schedule."
§ SIR M. HICKS BEACH
I will only say that I do not think the hon. Member is justified in saying that I made any promise whatever in this matter. What I did say was that I would examine into the matter in view of the restrictions placed upon the charges of cab proprietors. In the course of that examination I had to consider
§ the case of cab proprietors in other places. My own impression after the examination which I have made on the subject is that it is not possible to deal with the matter in the way I had contemplated, and that in no case ought I to give a remission of the tax on oats.
§ (12.3.) Question put.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes, 199; Noes, 114. (Division List No. 220.)467
|Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.||Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-||Lawrence, Wm. E. (Liverpool)|
|Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel||Doxford, Sir William Theodore||Lawson, John Grant|
|Arkwright, John Stanhope||Duke, Henry Edward||Lees, Sir Elliot (Birkenhead)|
|Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.||Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin||Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage|
|Arrol, Sir William||Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)||Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie|
|Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John||Faber, George Denison (York)||Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.|
|Balcarres, Lord||Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward||Llewellyn, Evan Henry|
|Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r||Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r||Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.|
|Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)||Finch, George H.||Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine|
|Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds||Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne||Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)|
|Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.||Fisher, William Hayes||Lonsdale, John Brownlee|
|Banbury, Frederick George||Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry||Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)|
|Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks||Flower, Ernest||Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)|
|Beckett, Ernest William||Forster, Henry William||Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth|
|Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.||Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W||Macdona, John Cumming|
|Bignold, Arthur||Galloway, William Johnson||MacIver, David (Liverpool)|
|Bigwood, James||Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick||Maconochie, A. W.|
|Blundell, Colonel Henry||Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn||M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)|
|Bond, Edward||Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts||M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.|
|Brassey, Albert||Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop||M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)|
|Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John||Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc)||Majendie, James A. H.|
|Brotherton, Edward Allen||Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon||Martin, Richard Biddulph|
|Bull, William James||Goulding, Edward Alfred||Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.|
|Butcher, John George||Green, Walford D (Wednesbury||Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.|
|Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.||Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)||Melville, Beresford Valentine|
|Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)||Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)||Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton|
|Cavendish V. C. W. (Derbyshire||Grenfell, William Henry||Molesworth, Sir Lewis|
|Cayzer, Sir Charles William||Gretton, John||Moon, Edward Robert Pacy|
|Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)||Greville, Hon. Ronald||More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)|
|Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)||Groves, James Grimble||Morgan, David J (Walthamst' w|
|Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.||Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton||Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.|
|Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r||Guthrie, Walter Murray||Morrell, George Herbert|
|Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry||Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.||Morrison, James Archibald|
|Chapman, Edward||Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x||Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford|
|Charrington, Spencer||Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry||Mount, William Arthur|
|Clive, Capt. Percy A.||Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm.||Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.|
|Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.||Harris, Frederick Leverton||Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute|
|Coghill, Douglas Harry||Haslam, Sir Alfred S.||Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)|
|Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse||Hay, Hon. Claude George||Newdigate, Francis Alexander|
|Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole||Helder, Augustus||Nicol, Donald Ninian|
|Compton, Lord Alwyne||Henderson, Alexander||Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay|
|Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)||Hoare, Sir Samuel||Parkes, Ebenezer|
|Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)||Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.||Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley|
|Cranborne, Viscount||Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside||Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard|
|Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)||Hoult, Joseph||Plummer, Walter R.|
|Crossley, Sir Savile||Howard, Jno. (Kent, Faversham||Pretyman, Ernest George|
|Dalkeith, Earl of||Hudson, George Bickersteth||Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward|
|Dalrymple, Sir Charles||Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex)||Purvis, Robert|
|Davenport, William Bromley-||Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop||Randles, John S.|
|Denny, Colonel||Keswick, William||Ratcliff, R. F.|
|Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-||Kimber, Henry||Reid, James (Greenock)|
|Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph||Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.||Renwick, George|
|Dorington, Sir John Edward||Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)||Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge|
|Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson||Stock, James Henry||Whitmore, Charles Algernon|
|Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)||Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley||Willoughby de Eresby, Lord|
|Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)||Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier||Wills, Sir Frederick|
|Ropner, Colonel Robert||Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)||Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.|
|Round, James||Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.||Wilson, John (Glasgow)|
|Royds, Clement Molyneux||Thornton, Percy M.||Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.|
|Sadler, Col-Samuel Alexander||Tollemache, Henry James||Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)|
|Sinclair, Louis (Romford)||Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray||Wrightson, Sir Thomas|
|Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)||Valentia, Viscount||Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George|
|Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside||Warde, Colouel C. E.||Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong|
|Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.||Warr, Augustus Frederick|
|Spear, John Ward||Webb, Colonel William George|
|Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)||Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.||TELLERS FOR THE AYES, Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.|
|Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart||Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-|
|Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.||Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne|
|Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.||Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.||O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)|
|Allen, Charles P (Glouc, Stroud||Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)||O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N|
|Atherley-Jones, L.||Horniman, Frederick John||O'Malley, William|
|Barry, E. (Cork, S.)||Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)||O'Mara, James|
|Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.||Jones, Dav. Brynmor (Swansea||O'Shaughnessy, P. J.|
|Boland, John||Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.||O'Shee, James John|
|Brand, Hon. Arthur G.||Joyce, Michael||Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)|
|Broadhurst, Henry||Lambert, George||Power, Patrick Joseph|
|Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson||Leamy, Edmnnd||Rea, Russell|
|Caine, William Sproston||Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington||Reckitt, Harold James|
|Caldwell, James||Leigh, Sir Joseph||Reddy, M.|
|Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)||Leng, Sir John||Redmond, John E. (Waterford)|
|Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.||Levy, Maurice||Redmond, William (Clare)|
|Causton, Richard Knight||Lewis, John Herbert||Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)|
|Cawley, Frederick||Lundon, W.||Robson, William Snowdon|
|Charming, Francis Allston||MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.||Runciman, Walter|
|Cogan, Denis J.||MacNeill, John Gordon Swift||Schwann, Charles E.|
|Condon, Thomas Joseph||MacVeagh, Jeremiah||Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)|
|Craig, Robert Hunter||M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)||Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)|
|Crean, Eugene||M'Cann, James||Sheehan, Daniel Daniel|
|Delany, William||M'Crae, George||Shipman, Dr. John G.|
|Dillon, John||M'Hugh, Patrick A.||Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)|
|Doogan, P. C.||M'Kean, John||Soames, Arthur Wellesley|
|Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)||M'Kenna, Reginald||Soares, Ernest J.|
|Duncan, J. Hastings||M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)||Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants|
|Esmonde, Sir Thomas||M'Laren, Charles Benjamin||Stevenson, Francis S.|
|Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne||Mansfield, Horace Rendall||Strachey, Sir Edward|
|Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)||Markham, Arthur Basil||Sullivan, Donal|
|Fenwick, Charles||Mooney, John J.||Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower|
|Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)||Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)||Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n, N|
|Ffrench, Peter||Morley, Charles (Breconshire)||Toulmin, George|
|Flynn, James Christopher||Murphy, John||Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.|
|Gilhooly, James||Nannetti, Joseph P.||White, Patrick (Meath, North)|
|Goddard, Daniel Ford||Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)||Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)|
|Griffith, Ellis J.||Norman, Henry||Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)|
|Hammond, John||O'Brien, Kendal (Tip'erary Mid||Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)|
|Harmsworth, R. Leicester||O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)|
|Hayden, John Patrick||O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)||TELLERS FOR THE NOES. Mr. Lough and Mr. Pirie.|
|Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-||O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)|
§ MR. FLYNN moved to omit "maize" from the Schedule.
In page 5, line 9, to leave out the word maize.'"—(Mr. Flynn.)
§ Question proposed, "That the word 'maize' stand part of the Schedule."468
§ Committee report progress; to sit again upon Monday next.
§ Adjourned at twenty minutes after Twelve o'clock.