HC Deb 02 February 1897 vol 45 cc1068-83
MR. E. J. C. MORTON (Devonport)

asked whether, supposing the Debate on the financial Resolution went over that day, he was able to undertake that the Government would not take to-morrow.


I really am unable to entertain the hypothesis for a moment. [Laughter and cheers.]


, rising again, moved:— That the order for the Committee on 'Voluntary Schools (Aid Grant, Etc.)' have precedence this day of the notices of motion and other Orders of the Day. He thought this was a motion that would need no justification from him. [Opposition cries of "Oh."] He much regretted that his hon. Friend who, by the fortune of the ballot, was the happy possessor of the first place that day, should be disappointed by the proposal to take the time for Government business. But it must be remembered that they were, after all, only discussing what was commonly regarded and what ought to be regarded as a purely formal stage in the procedure of bringing in a Bill, and which was quite independent of the discussions on the Second Reading and Committee stages of the Bill. In addition to the opportunity now afforded there would be an opportunity for some discussion on the Report of the Resolution. In the circumstances they ought not to delay long coming to a conclusion upon this, the first Parliamentary stage in the discussion of the Education Measure. ["Hear, hear."]

MR. JOHN ELLIS (Notts,) Rushcliffe

thought the motion did require further justification than the right hon. Gentleman had vouchsafed. It was, in his opinion, both as regards the manner in which it had been brought forward and the period of the Session, most unusual, and he might almost say unprecedented. Mr. Speaker Shaw Lefevre said the Standing Orders ought to be so framed as to give reasonable certainty to their proceedings and prevent Members from being confronted with surprises. But there was a great element of surprise about this motion. It was not until midnight last night that the First Lord of the Treasury announced that he would make this Motion to interfere with the Standing Orders. He admitted that the Standing Orders as they stood at the beginning of the Session did not give the Government sufficient time. But that had been largely remedied by the new Sessional order relating to Supply, and the merit of that new Sessional order lay in its certainty. A great part of the unnecessary weariness experienced in the House arose from the element of uncertainty in their procedure. They all knew the farce that went on at the beginning of the Session of a number of Members bringing in Bills which everybody knew in the great majority of cases would never go any further. Much of their time was undoubtedly wasted owing to the element of uncertainty. [Cheers.] If the Rules of the House were so altered that they could know beforehand what was coming on and the time it would take they would leave at the end of the Session with a better conscience as to the work they had done. Many hon. Members were engaged in important affairs outside and could not come every day. It would be an evil day when the House did not contain men in contact with the great philanthropic, social, industrial, and commercial currents which made up our national life. Their advice as experts was very important, and it was most inconvenient to them that the business of the House should be altered at short notice as it often was. If a return were made of the telegrams which the Party Whips had to dispatch, often at a moment's notice, to bring Members up from the country it would be an object lesson in the uncertainty of their proceedings. ["Hear, hear."] The Leader of the House gave away the whole case last night in regard to his Motion when he said there was no particular reason the Bill should be passed by a particular date.


But there is the strongest reason why it should be through by an early date.


But the "time limit" had vanished. Why, therefore, make this raid on the Standing Orders and the rights of Members? He emphatically protested against this Motion, because it contained the element of uncertainty with which they were already too familiar, it was unfair to hon. Members who had Motions on the Paper, and there was no necessity for it. (Cheers.)


said that when a Minister took away a day he should make it clear that he was justified in doing so, in the interests not only of the Government but of the business of the House. He agreed that when the principal Bill of the Session was before the House it should be discussed de die in diem. The Leader of the House had said he could not contemplate the hypothesis of the Debate lasting over that night. But he would make that hypothesis impossible by moving the clause. That evening there was a most important question with regard to Peers. On the Radical side of the House they took the deepest interest in Peers. [Laughter.] Yet the Leader of the House waved the subject away as though absolutely nothing. Private Members ought not to lose their days through the idiosyncrasies of a Minister. If the Debate did not finish that night, would it go on de die in diem?

MR. EDWIN LAWRENCE (Cornwall, Truro)

said there was no hurry for the Education Resolution, and he protested against being deprived of bringing on a subject which excited the greatest interest amongst his constituents.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.)

I have on many occasions, from the front Bench, on whichever side of the House I have sat, supported Motions for taking away days, under certain conditions, from private Members, and as the Member for Truro has said, if the question before the House had been an urgent matter on which it was necessary at the earliest opportunity to come to a decision, I think I should again have supported the Government. But it is perfectly obvious that that is not the case. It was fully explained last night that this was to be a permanent Measure which is by its magnitude ultimately to compensate people for their present disappointments. I think that was the light in which the right hon. Gentleman put it. At midnight last night, he said he would much rather to-day he discussing the questions now on the Paper in regular order than he would be discussing the Education Bill. After the Debate of last night, I am not surprised at that statement. [Opposition cheers.] The right hon. Gentleman said the Debate had produced upon him a sense of nausea—[laughter]—that there been had a repetition of arguments ad nauseam, and he added that there were very important Motions on the Paper for the consideration of the House to-day. It is quite true. There is a very interesting Motion by the hon. Member for Sheffield. It is a Motion of great importance which affects the whole finance of the country. It proposed to put a 10 per cent. ad valorem duty upon all manufactures—[laughter]—and a 5 per cent. duty upon all partly manufactured goods. Well, Sir, that is a large order. [Laughter.] We should have been extremely glad to know the opinions of the Gentlemen opposite upon it, and the decision of the Government. I quite agree with the First Lord of the Treasury that it would have been of the deepest interest to discuss a question of that kind, especially as out of the proceeds it is proposed to finally provide for old-age pensions. No doubt the Resolution will command the support of the Colonial Secretary. [Laughter.] As the Education Bill, in its present form, is not urgent, it would he a pity to lose so interesting a discussion. The First Lord of the Treasury had deprecated prolonged discussion on this stage of the Financial Resolution, but the right hon. Gentleman opened the whole policy of the Bill on the Resolution, and it was upon the Resolution that we discussed the Bill on Monday night and will continue to discuss it. It is extremely important that the country should have time to form an opinion on this Bill. Probably there is no subject in which the country at large is more deeply interested than this question of education, or which it more thoroughly understands, and before we divide on the Resolution in Committee of Supply, which is practically speaking hereafter to shut out the question of the Board Schools, ought not the country to have an opportunity of knowing what we are doing here? It is not as if this Resolution, as in the case of most Resolutions in Committee, had no final or ulterior operation. I am not charging the Government with any evil design in the form of the Resolution. But no one can deny that when this Resolution is passed the effect will be to exclude this House from considering the claims put forward on their behalf. I must protest against any attempt, therefore, to force through the House a resolution of that character without giving ample time to the country to know what is the policy of the Government in this respect. The country also should have an opportunity of expressing its opinion as to a scheme of education which in its present form excludes the Board Schools of the country from any share of the public money which is to be voted by the Bill. When it is proposed, therefore, to displace the only business of the House and that almost on the threshold of the Session, for the purpose of hurrying on a scheme which ought not to be hurried on, I say that the scheme ought to be amply considered both in the House and out of it before we have reached the conclusive stage. I think that is the strongest reason why we ought not to take resolutions with an unusual dispatch which will exclude the entire question from debate. But, in addition to the House and the country, there is another body who ought to be glad of a little leisure to reflect on this Bill, and that is the Government itself. [Cheers.] I heard in the House last night warning voices addressed to the Government from their supporters behind, and I have seen in the Press this morning still stronger warnings from their best friends. Why then should not the Government take a day or two to think whether or not they were pressing their scheme on the country in a form which will be acceptable to it? I think, in the circumstances of this case, and especially of a case which requires leisure and reflection and which demands no immediate decision, that it is most unwise to disturb the present arrangements of the House, and therefore I shall vote against the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman. [Cheers.]


The right hon. Gentleman, following the lead of my hon. Friend the Member for the Truro Division, has stated that his reason for objecting to the Motion is that there, is no reason for proceeding rapidly with the Bill. I dissent entirely from that. [Cheers.] I dissent from it on two distinct grounds. I dissent from it partly on a ground which the House will understand when it sees the printed Hill, that it is very important in the interests of the Voluntary Schools that the Measure should become law at the earliest possible date. [Cheers.] I dissent from the statement in the second place, on the ground that it must be manifest to everyone that if an inordinate length of time is occupied by the discussion of the relief to be given to Voluntary Schools, it will be impossible to find time for the other scheme dealing with necessitous Board Schools. [Ironical laughter and cheers.] The right hon. Gentleman appeared to think that the Government had hastily adopted unexpected policy in thus separating the discussion of Voluntary Schools from other questions connected with education. I have stated that was the policy of the Government two or three times at least in the most formal and explicit manner in public, and in a mode which any hon. Member might understand. That being so, it is manifest, if the House is really seriously desirous that we should take up the second branch of relief to which I have referred, it is not a wise suggestion that we should spend days in meditating on this Bill and in wasting time which ought to be occupied in getting on with it. I hope hon. Gentlemen who are desirous to relieve Voluntary Schools or Board Schools will assist the Government by their vote and speech—and sometimes by the absence of their speeches [cheers and laughter]—to get this Bill through as soon as possible. I shall never be a party to the dilatory proceedings which the right hon. Gentleman appears to sanction by his speech, and which he is going to sanction by his vote. [Cheers.]


, who spoke amid loud cries of "Divide," said that if hon. Gentlemen opposite had the same experience of the necessity for more piers and harbours as the hon. Member for Truro they would attach considerable importance to the Motion. The lives of thousands of their fellow countrymen were involved in the consideration of the hon. Member's Motion; and if there was no great urgency for the Education Bill, the right hon. Gentleman should allow one night, at any rate, to be devoted to the safety of our fishing and sea-going population. ["Hear, hear!"] If the request was not granted, however, he hoped that these people would note that they had been deprived of their opportunity by the Government in order to hasten on the work of dipping hands into the public-purse to satisfy their clerical supporters. ["Oh, oh!" and cheers.] He invited the Leader of the House to withdraw the proposal of a grant for Voluntary Schools, and to associate necessitous Board Schools with them in one Resolution. If this were done, a great deal of support would be obtained from the Opposition Benches. It was nothing short of monstrous that the right hon. Gentleman should make this Motion in the first fortnight of the Session, and he suggested the right hon. Gentleman should give an assurance that if the Resolution was passed that evening he would continue the Education Debate to-morrow. He was grieved to find also that the House had sat until nearly 1 o'clock the previous morning. If some Members of the Opposition supported the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, would he give a definite pledge that the House should not in any circumstances be kept sitting after midnight? [Laughter and "Oh, oh!"] After 12 or half-past 12 o'clock a considerable number of Members could not take part in the business of the I House because it was next to impossible for them to reach their homes after that hour. If the right hon. Gentleman would accept this offer he should consider whether it would not be his duty to stay his opposition to the Motion. [Cries of "Divide."]

MR. T. LOUGH (Islington, W.)

recalled the words of the Leader of the House last Friday, when he said "he could not promise to take no Tuesday before Whitsuntide, but he would be glad to preserve any reasonable number of Tuesdays," and said that here the right hon. Gentleman was nevertheless taking the first private Members' Tuesday of the Session. In view of the opposition on their own side of the House to their education scheme, and the figures of the Romford poll, the Government would do wisely to take time to reconsider their extraordinary position.

MR. J. G. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty)

rose to address the House amid renewed cries of "Divide," when


rose in his place, and

claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."—The House divided:—Ayes, 259; Noes, 143.—(Division List—No. 10—appended.)

Aird, John Dane, Richard M. Hobhouse, Henry
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Darling, Charles John Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh
Ambrose, William (Middlesex) Denny, Colonel Hopkinson, Alfred
Arnold, Alfred Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Dixon, George Howard, Joseph
Arrol, Sir William Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. Dixon Howell, William Tudor
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Dorington, Sir John Edward Howorth, Sir Henry Hoyle
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Doxford, William Theodore Hudson, George Bickersteth
Bailey, James (Walworth) Drage, Geoffrey Hunt, Sir Frederick Seager
Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness) Drucker, A. Isaacson, Frederick Wootton
Baird, John George Alexander Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Balcarres, Lord Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r) Edwards, Gen. Sir James Bevan Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Balfour, Gerald William (Leeds) Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Johnston, William (Belfast)
Banbury, Frederick George Engledow, Charles John Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)
Banes, Major George Edward Fardell, Thomas George Kemp, George
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Farquhar, Sir Horace Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Kenny, William
Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r) Kenrick, William
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants.) Finch, George H. King, Sir Henry Seymour
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Knowles, Lees
Bethell, Captain Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lafone, Alfred
Big wood, James Fisher, William Hayes Laurie, Lieut.-General
Bill, Charles FitzGerald, Sir R. U. Penrose Lawrence, Edwin (Cornwall)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Flannery, Fortescue Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Flower, Ernest Lecky, William Edward H.
Boulnois, Edmund Folkestone, Viscount Lees, Elliott (Birkenhead)
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) Forster, Henry William Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swnsea)
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) Forwood, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur B. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. (Essex)
Brassey, Albert Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Galloway, William Johnson Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Garfit, William Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (L'pool.)
Brown, Alexander H. Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.) Lorne, Marquess of
Carew, James Laurence Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Giles, Charles Tyrrell Lucas-Shadwell, William
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) Gilliat, John Saunders Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Cecil, Lord Hugh Goldsworthy, Major-General Macdona, John Cumming
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Gordon, John Edward Maclean, James Mackenzie
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Maclure, John William
Chamberlain J. Austen (Worc'r) Goschen, Rt. Hon. G. J. (St. G'rg's) McCalmont, Mj.-Gen (Antr'mN)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Malcolm, Ian
Charrington, Spencer Goulding, Edward Alfred Marks, Henry Hananel
Chelsea, Viscount Graham, Henry Robert Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)
Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth) Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Melville, Beresford Valentine
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y) Milbank, Powlett Charles John
Coddington, Sir William Gretton, John Milward, Colonel Victor
Coghill, Douglas Harry Gull, Sir Cameron Monckton, Edward Philip
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hall, Sir Charles Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Halsey, Thomas Frederick More, Robert Jasper
Compton, Lord Alwyne (Beds.) Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Mowbray, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Muntz, Philip A.
Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Hereford) Hanson, Sir Reginald Murdoch, Charles Townshend
Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H. Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G raham (Bute)
Cox, Robert Heath, James Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Cranborne, Viscount Helder, Augustus Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Nicol, Donald Ninian
Currie, Sir Donald Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arthur (Down) Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford
Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lancs. S W.) Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley (Staffs.) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Dalbiac, Major Philip Hugh Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay
Pease, Arthur (Darlington) Seton-Karr, Henry Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)
Pender, James Sharpe, William Edward T. Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Penn, John Sidebottom, William (Derbysh.) Wharton, John Lloyd
Phillpotts, Captain Arthur Simeon, Sir Barrington Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Pierpoint, Robert Smith, Abel (Herts) Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Plunkett, Hon. Horace Curzon Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Pollock, Harry Frederick Spencer, Ernest Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm.)
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Pretyman, Capt. Ernest George Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) Willox, John Archibald
Pryce-Jones, Edward Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Purvis, Robert Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh. N.)
Rankin, James Strauss, Arthur Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Strut, Hon. Charles Hedley Wodehouse, Edmond R. (Bath)
Renshaw, Charles Bine Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson Talbot, John G. (Oxford Un.) Wyndham, George
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Taylor, Francis Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Thorburn, Walter Wyvill, Marmnduke D'Arcy
Round, James Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Younger, William
Russell, Col. F. S. (Cheltenham) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Usborne, Thomas TELLERS FOR THE AYES, Sir
Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Verney, Hon. Richard Greville William Walrond and Mr.
Saunderson, Col. Edw. James Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Anstruther
Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard Waring, Col. Thomas
Seely, Charles Hilton Warr, Augustus Frederick
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Flynn, James Christopher McLaren, Charles Benjamin
Acland, Rt. Hon. A. H. Dyke Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) McLeod, John
Allan, William (Gateshead) Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Hy. (Wol'tn) Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Arch, Joseph Fowler, Matthew (Durham) Mellor, Rt. Hn. J. W. (Yorks.)
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Gilhooly, James Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir G. O. (Denbs.)
Atherley-Jones, L. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Goddard, Daniel Ford Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Gold, Charles Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose)
Bainbridge, Emerson Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley Morton, Edward John Chalmers
Baker, Sir John Griffith, Ellis J. Mundella, Rt. Hn. Anthony John
Barlow, John Emmot Haldane, Richard Burdon Nussey, Thomas Willans
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Harrison, Charles O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)
Blake, Edward Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale O'Kelly, James
Broadhurst, Henry Hazell, Walter Oldroyd, Mark
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. O'Malley, William
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hogan, James Francis Paulton, James Mellor
Burt, Thomas Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Perks, Robert William
Caldwell, James Jacoby, James Alfred Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Causton, Richard Knight Joicey, Sir James Pirie, Captain Duncan Vernon
Cawley, Frederick Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)
Channing, Francis Allston Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Reckitt, Harold James
Colville, John Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U. Reid, Sir Robert T.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kearley, Hudson E. Rickett, J. Compton
Crean, Eugene Kilbride, Denis Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)
Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Daley, James Labouchere, Henry Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan) Lambert, George Robson, William Snowdon
Davies, W. Rees (Pembrokesh.) Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Roche, Hon. James (East Kerry)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Leng, Sir John Roche, John (East Galway)
Dillon, John Leuty, Thomas Richmond Schwann, Charles E.
Donelan, Captain A. Lloyd-George, David Scott, Charles Prestwich
Doogan, P. C. Lockwood, Sir Frank (York) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B)
Doughty, George Logan, John William Sheehy, David
Dunn, Sir William Lough, Thomas Souttar, Robinson
Ellis, John Edward (Notts.) Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent) Spicer, Albert
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Luttrell, Hugh Fownes Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton) Macaleese, Daniel Stevenson, Francis S.
Farquharson, Dr. Robert MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Strachey, Edward
Farrell, James P. (Cavan, W.) McEwan, William Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Fenwick, Charles M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim) Tennant, Harold John
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) McKenna, Reginald Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E)
Thomas, Alfred (Glarnorgan, E.) Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfolk) Young, Samuel
Wallace, Robert (Perth) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.) Yoxall, James Henry
Wayman, Thomas Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Weir, James Galloway Wilson, John (Govan) TELLERS FOR THE NOES, Mr.
Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Woodall, William Thomas Ellis and Mr.
Williams, John Carvell (Notts.) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hud'rsfld) McArthur.

Question put accordingly:—The House divided—Ayes, 283; Noes, 123—(Division List—No. 11—appended.)

Aird, John Cranborne, Viscount Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden Crean, Eugene Goulding, Edward Alfred
Ambrose, William (Middlesex) Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Arnold, Alfred Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Currie, Sir Donald Gretton, John
Arrol, Sir William Curzon, Rt. G. N. (Lanc. S. W.) Hall, Sir Charles
Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis Curzon, Viscount (Bucks.) Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Dalbiac, Major Philip Hugh Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Daly, James Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Dane, Richard M. Hanson, Sir Reginald
Bailey, James (Walworth) Darling, Charles John Hardy, Laurence
Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness) Denny, Colonel Hare, Thomas Leigh
Baird, John George Alexander Digby, John K. D. Wingfield Heath, James
Balcarres, Lord Dillon, John Helder, Augustus
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Man.) Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. Dixon Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Balfour, Gerald William (Leeds) Donelan, Captain A. Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arthur (Down)
Banbury, Frederick George Doogan, P. C. Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley (Staffs.)
Banes, Major George Edward Dorington, Sir John Edward Hoare, Edward Brodie (Hamps.)
Barnes, Frederick Gorell Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Hobhouse, Henry
Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Doxford, William Theodore Hogan, James Francis
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants) Drage, Geoffrey Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Drucker, A. Hopkinson, Alfred
Bethell, Captain Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Bigwood, James Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart Howard, Joseph
Bill, Charles Edwards, Gen. Sir James Bevan Howell, William Tudor
Blundell, Colonel Henry Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton Howorth, Sir Henry Hoyle
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Engledow, Charles John Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Fardell, Thomas George Hudson, George Bickersteth
Boulnois, Edmund Farquhar, Sir Horace Hunt, Sir Frederick Seager
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex) Farrell, James P. (Cavan, W.) Isaacson, Frederick Wootton
Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn) Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Brassey, Albert Fergusson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. (Man.) Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Finch, George H. Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton
Brookfield, A. Montagu Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Johnston, William (Belfast)
Brown, Alexander H. Firbank, Joseph Thomas Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)
Carew, James Lawrence Fisher, William Hayes Kemp, George
Carson, Edward FitzGerald, Sir R. U. Penrose Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanc.) Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. Kenny, William
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire) Flannery, Fortescue Kenrick, William
Cecil, Lord Hugh Fletcher, Sir Henry Kilbride, Denis
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Flower, Ernest King, Sir Henry Seymour
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.) Flynn, James Christopher Knowles, Lees
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r) Folkestone, Viscount Lafone, Alfred
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Forster, Henry William Laurie, Lieut.-General
Charrington, Spencer Forwood, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur B. Lawrence, Edwin (Cornwall)
Chelsea, Viscount Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth) Fowler, Matthew (Durham) Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Galloway, William Johnson Lecky, William Edward H.
Coddington, Sir William Garfit, William Lees, Elliott (Birkenhead)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H. (City of Lon.) Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sivans'a)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. (Essex)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Giles, Charles Tyrrell Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Compton, Lord Alwyne (Beds.) Gilhooly, James Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Gilliat, John Saunders Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool.)
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Goldsworthy, Major-General Lorne, Marquess of
Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heref'd) Gordon, John Edward Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H. Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Lucas-Shadwell, William
Cox, Robert Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's) Macaleese, Daniel
Macartney, W. G. Ellison Pollock, Harry Frederick Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Macdona, John Cumming Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Talbot, Lord, E. (Chichester)
Maclean, James Mackenzie Pretyman, Capt. Ernest George Talbot, John G. (Oxford Univ.)
Maclure, John William Pryce-Jones, Edward Taylor, Francis
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Purvis, Robert Thorburn, Walter
McCalmont, Mj.-Gen. (Ant'm. N) Rankin, James Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
McKillop, James Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Tritton, Charles Ernest
Malcolm, Ian Renshaw, Charles Bine Usborne, Thomas
Marks, Henry Hananel Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir Matthew W. Verney, Hon. Richard Greville
Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Melville, Beresford Valentine Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Waring, Col. Thomas
Milbank, Powlett Charles John Roche, Hon. James (East Kerry) Warr, Augustus Frederick
Milner, Sir Frederick George Roche, John (East Galway) Webster, Sir R. E. (Isle of Wight)
Milward, Colonel Victor Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Monckton, Edward Philip Round, James Wharton, John Lloyd
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Russell, Col. F. S. (Cheltenham) Whiteley, George (Stockport)
More, Robert Jasper Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)
Mowbray, Rt. Hon. Sir John Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Muntz, Philip A. Saunderson, Col. Edw. James Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Murdoch, Charles Townshend Savory, Sir Joseph Williams, Joseph Powell-(Brm.)
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Seely, Charles Hilton Willox, John Archibald
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Sharpe, William Edward T. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Nicol, Donald Ninian Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh. N.)
Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Sidebottom, William (Derbysh.) Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)
O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) Simeon, Sir Barrington Wodehouse, Edmond R. (Bath)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Smith, Abel (Herts) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
O'Malley, William Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
O'Niell, Hon. Robert Torrens Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Wyndham, George
Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay Spencer, Ernest Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Pease, Arthur (Darlington) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Pender, James Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) Younger, William
Penn, John Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)
Phillpotts, Captain Arthur Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart TELLERS FOR THE AYES, Sir
Pierpoint, Robert Strauss, Arthur William Walrond and
Platt-Higgina, Frederick Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Mr. Anstruther.
Plunkett, Hon. Horace Curzon Sturt, Hon. Humphrey Napier
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Farquaharson, Dr. Robert Lloyd-George, David
Acland, Rt. Hon. Hon. A. H. Dyke Fenwick, Charles Lockwood, Sir Frank (York)
Allan, William (Gateshead) Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Logan, John William
Arch, Joseph Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Lough, Thomas
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry (Wl'tn) Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)
Atherley-Jones, L. Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John Luttrell, Hugh Fownes
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Goddard, Daniel Ford McArthur, William
Bainbridge, Emerson Gold, Charles McEwan, William
Baker, Sir John Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)
Barlow, John Emmott Griffith, Ellis J. McKenna, Reginald
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Gull, Sir Cameron McLaren, Charles Benjamin
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Haldane, Richard Burdon McLeod, John
Broadhuret, Henry Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Harrison, Charles Meller, Rt. Hon. J. W.(Yorks.)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir G. O. (Denbs.)
Burt, Thomas Hazell, Walter Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H. Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Caldwell, James Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose)
Causton, Richard Knight Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Morton, Edward John Chalmers
Cawley, Frederick Jacoby, James Alfred Mundella, Rt. Hn. Anthony John
Channing, Francis Allston Joicey, Sir James Nussey, Thomas Willans
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea) O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Colville, John Jones, William, (Carnarvonsh're) O'Kelly, James
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan) Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hon. Sr. U Oldroyd, Mark
Davies, W. Rees-(Pembrokesh.) Kearley, Hudson E. Paulton, James Mellor
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Kinloch, Sir John George Smy the Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Dixon, George Labouchere, Henry Perks, Robert William
Doughty, George Lambert, George Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Dunn, Sir William Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'ld.) Pirie, Captain Duncan Vernon
Ellis, Thos. Edw. (Merionetsh.) Leese Sir Joseph F. (Accrington) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)
Evans, Samuel T. Glamorgan) Leng, Sir John Reckitt, Harold James
Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton) Leuty, Thomas Richmond Rickett, J. Compton
Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) Stevenson, Francis S. Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Strachey, Edward Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Tennant, Harold John Wilson, John (Govan)
Robson, William Snowdon Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) Woodall, William
Schwann, Charles E. Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) Woodhouse Sir J. T. (Hud'rsfld)
Scott, Charles Prestwich Wallace, Robert (Perth) Yoxall, James Henry
Seton-Karr, Henry Wayman, Thomas
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Weir, James Galloway TELLERS FOR THE NOES, Mr.
Souttar, Robinson Whittaker, Thomas Palmer John Ellis and Sir Robert
Spicer, Albert Williams, John Carvell (Notts) Reid.
Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Wilson Frederick W. (Norfolk)

Ordered, that the Order for the Committee on "Voluntary Schools [Aid Grant, Etc.]" have precedence this day of the Notices of Motions and other Orders of the day.

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