[BILL 107.] COMMITTEE.

§ Mr. ANDERSON,

in moving that the House go into Committee on the measure that day month, said, he was very much disappointed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made up his mind to go on with this Bill, after the very strong feeling expressed by the House, and after the appeal made to him at the previous Sitting, by the Leader of the Opposition. However, they must do what they could to convince the country, if not the House, of the impropriety of the practice which the Government had adopted of hurrying through a Bill of this important character, when the House was, practically, half dissolved, the Benches were empty, and the measure could not be discussed. The Bill had been brought in so late that it was impossible for the country to be aware of 1101 what it was intended to accomplish. Last night, in reply to the appeal of the Leader of the Opposition, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he gave Notice on Monday week that the Bill would be proceeded with. Now, he (Mr. Anderson) had had the curiosity to refer to the report of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, to see what the right hon. Gentleman had actually said, and he found that all he then said was that it was not impossible to proceed with this Bill, and that it was not impossible even to deal with the question of the conveyance of voters to the poll; but the right hon. Gentleman did not give the slightest indication of the way in which he proposed to deal with it. Therefore, his statement received no attention at the time. It was never doubted that if the Government intended to deal with a matter that was illegal it would not be by making it legal, but by attaching a penalty to it to prevent the illegality. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given any hint at that time that it was his intention to make the evil practice a legal practice, he would have now found it impossible to carry out his designs. He (Mr. Anderson) thought that, under these circumstances, the Bill ought not to be proceeded with. Nothing was known of the nature of the Government measure, and what would be the mode of dealing with the conveyance of voters, until Thursday morning, when the Bill was distributed. Then, for the first time, he learned its nature, and on that day the Government insisted on the second reading before the Bill could have become generally known. The country was entirely unaware of it, and yet it was a measure of the utmost importance, affecting every borough from Land's End to John o'Groat's House, and in Ireland also. No time had been given to the constituencies to consult with their Members, or to petition against it. In the most arbitrary way the Chancellor of the Exchequer was using the power which the Government had at the end of a Session to pass what it pleased. There was no opposition, which the small number of Members remaining in the House at this late period of the Session could organize, which would be of the slightest avail against the determination of the Government to carry it through. They could force it through in spite of opposition, especially when they had in the 1102 other House means, by suspending the Standing Orders, to run it through all its stages there in one day. That was a pestilential practice, which he thought should be put a stop to, for it gave the opportunity to a powerful Government to be guilty of serious abuses. On this occasion the Government was abusing its power, and he hoped the country would see it. It might seem a very clever election trick to legalize this evil custom of conveying voters to the poll; but, in place of pleasing anyone, it would have a very different effect. It was a bid for the cabman's vote. He did not think the cabmen's vote was a very important one, or that it was worth bidding for by such a bribe as the offer in this Bill; and he hoped the House would not allow it to pass even now. A measure dealing with corrupt practices at elections should deal with several other corrupt practices. These could not be dealt with in an expiring Parliament, nor could this particular one be fairly dealt with. He trusted other hon. Members would join with him in protesting against this Bill.

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, he seconded the Motion of the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) with great pleasure. He also had the greatest possible objection to this Bill, which seemed to him a measure to legalize corruption. He was not one of those, though he had pretty advanced opinions of his own, who went so far as to urge that in this country it was desirable that Members of Parliament should be paid. They had a large class of men of culture and leisure who were willing to serve their country in various public capacities, whether in that House or in some of the various forms of local government, or in other ways, without remuneration. The result of paying Members had, in America and other places, given rise to a class called professional politicians. The intrusting of the affairs of a country to such a class was undoubtedly an evil. But, whilst he was against the payment of Members, it seemed to him a most objectionable and injurious practice, that which prevailed in this country, of obliging Members virtually to pay for their seats by the great expense attending elections. It was well known that already the expense attending elections was so great that Members had to pay very heavily indeed for a seat in the 1103 House. Indeed, in many cases the expense was so great that only plutocrats could engage in a contest. The tendency of the present system was to make the House more and more a House for the rich, for although there were some seats which were accessible to those who wore not rich the great majority of them were only accessible to those who were. There were scandals in connection with the electoral system to which they had become accustomed by habit; but the intelligent foreigners who came amongst them must look at the state of things with the utmost astonishment. He protested against the manner in which the Government were pressing forward the Bill at a time when it could not be sufficiently considered. In counties, the law allowed the hiring of carriages for the conveyance of voters to the poll; and the result was that counties, above all other places, were the seats of the rich and stupid. [A laugh.] Hon. Gentlemen might laugh; but he had heard a county Member say—"I'm not clever, but I'm good enough for a county." It was only men of great position who could aspire to county seats, and those who had been engaged in county contests were aware that the greatest item of expense was the hiring of carriages to convey voters to the poll. Hitherto, the conveyance of voters had been prohibited in boroughs, but the Government now proposed to abolish the prohibition; and the passing of the measure would be not only to render it possible for borough Members to spend money in conveying voters to the poll, but would, practically, make it obligatory on them to do so. At the present time the position of a Member of Parliament was not altogether one of honour and pleasure. A great deal of hard and dreary work had to be performed; and it was hard, under such circumstances, that Members should be obliged to pay more and more for their seats. It was extraordinary that the Government should deem it necessary to press the Bill, when there was so little time to spare, and when there was an important financial measure still to be considered. The object of the Bill was clear; but he really saw no necessity for it whatever. They had been told that carriages were necessary at elections, in order to convey cripples and such like persons to the poll; but he did not conceive that cripples formed a large pro- 1104 portion of the population. True, in some cases, the law was evaded by corrupt constituencies; but there were many constituencies in which the law was not evaded, and it was hard that pure constituencies should be made to suffer for the misdeeds of the constituencies which were not pure. It would be a much more simple process to enforce the law in corrupt constituencies. Scotland was a law-abiding country, and its people were not in the habit of spending their money recklessly and of evading the law. He maintained that if the Bill became law in England the inevitable effect would be to force a similar provision upon Scotland. He felt somewhat jealous of Scotch electoral purity, especially when he heard that a large Tory purse had been provided for Scotland, and that the contents of the purse were to be lavishly distributed, so as to enable Tory candidates to contest Scotch burghs. The real fact was that the Conservative Party did not want to keep down the expense of elections, as they felt that the more expensive elections were the more likely it was that the majority of the House would consist of Tories. The success of the Conservative Party had hitherto largely depended upon public-house and Church support; and it seemed that the Government wanted to add another interest to the number—namely, the cab interest, which, in future, would be zealous on behalf of the Tory cause, if the present Bill became law. They well knew that in many constituencies contests were "got up," especially by the lawyers, entirely for the sake of making money fly about; and the effect of the passing of this Bill would be the give the cab owners, as well as the lawyers, an incentive for creating contests, where, under ordinary circumstances, they might be avoided. For those reasons, he should resolutely oppose the Bill at every stage of its progress.

§ SIR EARDLEY WILMOT

said, he would give his most cordial assent to the proposal of the Government, because he considered it an enabling Statute. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) had told them a good deal about the rich candidate, but had said nothing about the poor voter. The humble class of voters were generally hard at work during the day, and could only get away to vote at a certain hour. This Bill would enable them to go to the poll with convenience and comfort; and their case was far more worthy of consideration than any possible disadvantage which might arise from the increased expense of the election. In counties the conveyance of voters to the poll was sanctioned by law. He should give his strenuous support to the Bill, and he congratulated the Government upon having the courage not to give way to the opposition which had been raised to it.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir HARDINGE GLFFARD)

said, there was nothing in the nature of bribery in the conveyance of voters to the poll; it was simply an indemnity to the voter enabling him to vote. It was not only on the Conservative side of the House that the desire prevailed to repeal the statutory prohibition which existed, but was not observed, in regard to the conveyance of voters in boroughs; for the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) had on more than one occasion called attention to the injustice and inequality of this provision of the Statute. The voter also ought to be considered, for there were boroughs in which it became a serious inconvenience, if not an actual deprivation of the opportunity of voting, if the voter could not be taken to the poll. So universal had the want of the power to do so been felt that the prohibition was universally violated on both sides. He never knew of a contested election coming before an Election Judge in which it had not been proved over and over again that both sides had systematically disobeyed the existing law, which in itself was a novelty, and which in all the constituencies had been felt to be unjust. No penalty had ever been prescribed for a violation of the statutory provision; and it had been felt that it was not desirable under the circumstances, and in view of the General Election, to leave upon the Statute Book a 1106 provision which had been constantly and persistently neglected.

§ MR. E. JENKINS

felt that the argument of the Solicitor General was fallacious. He also felt that the present was a most inopportune time for forcing the Bill through the House, as it would be impossible to give the measure adequate consideration. When the Representation of the People Bill was being debated considerable discussion took place as to the advisability of allowing the conveyance of voters to the poll, and a gentleman who was not now a Member of the House—Mr. Bernal Osborne—stated that as much as between £2,000 and £3,000 was required in the borough of Westminster for conveying voters to the poll alone. The Government might, therefore, have a motive in passing this Bill, because the First Lord of the Admiralty was about to contest that constituency, and it might be desirable to give the right hon. Gentleman an advantage over two competitors who were certainly not prepared to spend so large a sum of money to enable true Liberals to record their votes. The Solicitor General had soared into the region of morals, and the hon. and learned Gentleman had asked why voters should not be conveyed to the poll? The answer was that a vote was not only a right, but a privilege and responsibility, which an elector had to exercise. Why should a voter be conveyed to the poll in order to be enabled to exercise his privilege? There was no reason why such a thing should be done. The Solicitor General considered that there was nothing wrong in the hiring of vehicles; but he was prepared to join issue with the hon. and learned Gentleman on that point also. Anything in the nature of a bribe to induce constituencies to do their duty was wrong; and, unquestionably, the conveyance of voters to the poll was in the nature of a bribe. The Ballot Act was now in force, and the principle of that Act was secrecy of voting. It was a mistake to canvass for voters, especially under the Ballot. He preferred to let the voters decide for themselves what they would do; but the object of the present Bill was to marshal voters together at the poll. It was conceivable that voters so taken might vote against you; but there was not a shadow of doubt that if you filled an omnibus with men, and took them to the poll, 1107 they would vote for you in the great majority of cases. The effect of the Bill would be to interfere with the free operation of the Ballot; and for that and the other reasons he had assigned he should consistently oppose the measure.

§ MR. D. O'CONOR

understood that the complaint of the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) was that the Government had taken no step to settle the question after the Report of the Committee in 1875. In the Committee a proposal was made to legalize the conveyance of voters; but it was negatived by 11 to 5. This was, no doubt, a very proper question to be discussed by Parliament; but he objected to the sense of the House being taken upon the question when there was barely a quorum present, and when it was scarcely possible for the House to know the opinion of the country upon it. He was ready to admit that a difference of opinion existed on the question; but he thought the subject should be left to be dealt with by the new Parliament. He should, therefore, though he did not feel very strongly about the measure, vote against it.

§ MR. MORGAN LLOYD

said, he objected to the passing of the Bill on several grounds, the first of which was that it had been left to the last moment of the Session, when the majority of hon. Members had gone away. Both the House and the public out-of-doors should have had fair time to consider it. There was something very like a trick in trying to force the Bill through the House under present circumstances. The Bill proceeded in a wrong direction; and whenever legislation took place it should, instead of repealing the prohibition, extend it to counties. After all, there was no necessity for the Bill, as the Statutes for the continuance of which the Bill was introduced would not expire till the end of 1880. Another objection was that it had been provided in the Ballot Act that there should a polling-place within four miles of every voter, and that obviated the necessity of employing conveyances. There would be no real inconvenience to voters if the hiring of cabs and other vehicles by candidates were rendered illegal. They would go to the poll as they now went to church or market—at their own expense, and they would be more free than they were at present to follow their 1108 own convictions in voting. The unrestricted use of vehicles handicapped the poor candidate as compared with the rich. It would go a long way to interfere with the secrecy of the ballot, and it was directly conducive to bribery. Not only cabs, but vehicles of any kind might be hired; and their owners would thereby be attracted to a particular candidate's cause. His hon. and learned Friend (Sir Henry James) had succeeded in carrying a Bill reducing the expenses of Returning Officers; but now the Government brought forward a measure which would open the door to increased election expenses. As there was a complaint throughout the Kingdom that elections were every year becoming more expensive, an effort should be made to reduce and not to increase their cost. It had been stated that if the Bill were not passed there would be an inequality and an undue advantage to those who had carriages of their own, and whose friends had carriages; but he thought the use of those private vehicles should also be made illegal. He trusted that the Government would not press the present Bill, but allow the House an opportunity of discussing the question in all its bearings on a future occasion.

§ MR. FORSYTH

said, he would give his last vote in Parliament in favour of the Bill for the following reasons:—Because the law was systematically avoided, no penalty being attached; because there was no moral turpitude in conveying a voter to the poll; because the present law favoured the rich candidates, who could use their own carriages and those of their friends, while the poor were prevented from hiring the only conveyances available to them; and because the existing law virtually disfranchised voters who were physically infirm.

§ SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE

admitted that the present state of the law was very unsatisfactory, but thought it very much to be regretted that the Government, having those strong opinions, should not before this have brought forward a measure on the subject. He thought this present proposal of the Government would press with great hardship upon the poorer class of candidates. It would be used as a means of extortion, for every voter would claim his right to be carried to the poll. Much unnecessary expense would be caused by the measure. He thought that was a 1109 very fair reason against such a change. He thought that in the experience of the last few years there was enough to justify the House in maintaining the prohibition against the use of conveyances at elections. It had been asked, why prohibit a thing which was innocent in itself? He replied that there was the ground of public expediency in favour of prohibiting a law which was in itself innocent, just as they prohibited colours and flags, and some of the paraphernalia of elections, which, though innocent in themselves, were capable of leading to abuse. It was very much to be regretted that the Government had brought this measure forward on the very eve of the Election, and under circumstances which made it impossible fully to take the sense of the House on the subject. It had been said that the present law was condemned in a considerable number of cases; but the House ought to be informed to what extent. They could only gather that knowledge either from a full House, such as there was not at present, or from a Committee of Inquiry, which might fairly take up this and several other questions with regard to the procedure at elections. He thought that the Government ought fully to look into the case against the objectionable clause of this Bill, and, at least, postpone it till next Parliament, when it could be better considered.

§ SIR ALEXANDER GORDON

remarked that the Solicitor General had laid great stress on the importance of assimilating the practice in counties and boroughs as to conveying voters to the poll. If Her Majesty's Government were so anxious to assimilate the positions of the borough and county voters, they could not do better than assimilate the county franchise to the borough franchise. They had always opposed that measure, and he could not understand why they should want assimilation on one point and not on another. If the law was to be altered, it should be altered in the opposite direction from that proposed by the Government. The privilege of conveying voters to the poll should be abolished in the counties as well as in the boroughs. He had some experience of this matter; and he was strongly of opinion that the voters of the rural districts in Scotland, at least, would very much prefer to convey one 1110 another, instead of leaving that duty to the candidates. If a candidate in a county had the footing he ought to have to justify his going to the poll, he could have no possible difficulty in getting his friends to take their friends to the poll in the conveyances which all farmers possessed. The proposed law, and the law now existing in counties, gave to the wealthy candidate an advantage over his poorer competitor. He agreed with what had been said with regard to the improper time chosen for introducing the Bill. Either it ought to have been introduced earlier in the Session, or left over till next Session. As for the contention that the existing law was absurd, because it was a law without a penalty, he asked why the Government did not propose a penalty? He did not think that that was a reason for passing the Bill, which he hoped to see withdrawn.

MR. STANTON

said, that in the borough he represented it would be a hardship to many of the working men if they could not be conveyed to the poll. Nevertheless, he objected strongly to the time and the manner in which this Bill was brought forward. It would have been better to deal with the subject after the General Election.

§ MR. H. SAMUELSON

thought that, as he had said before, the true solution of the difficulty about payment for conveyances at elections was to render it illegal for any person to receive payment in consideration of the letting of a vehicle for the purpose of conveying voters to the poll. He felt bound to make his protest against the way in which the Government were forcing this Bill through the House. He had had some opportunities of testing public opinion on the matter, and he had found that there was a very strong feeling against the manner in which it was being pushed on, and a very strong suspicion as to the motives which induced the Government to proceed with it under such exceptional circumstances. He did not know that they could do much more in opposing the Bill; but, at any rate, it would go forth to the country that there were a number of Members who had entered a strong protest against it, and who had shown that they were determined to oppose the unnecessary increase of election expenses to the best of their ability. He condemned the action of the Government, in pushing the matter 1111 forward at the present moment, when it was impossible, in the necessarily deserted state of the House, to obtain a proper discussion, as most unfair.

§ MR. W. HOLMS

expressed his regret that the appeal made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the previous night to withdraw the Bill had not been complied with. The Government had brought forward this measure in a surreptitious manner. They had attempted to force it through the House before either the country or hon. Members had an opportunity of fully understanding its scope. It was printed on Wednesday night, and the second reading was proposed to be taken on the following day. The Bill tended to increase the cost of elections; and not only so, but it opened a door to bribery. The cost of elections in large constituencies was simply enormous. The mere cost of posting election addresses in a constituency of 48,000 electors amounted to £200. With such a fact before them, he asked the Government to reflect what the cost of an election would be to a candidate if he had to pay for conveying voters to the poll. One of the difficulties in large constituencies was that of getting the electors to the poll; and he ventured to say that difficulty would be greatly increased if the Bill were passed. If they expected to be conveyed to the poll as a matter of course, they would become even more apathetic than they were at present. If candidates were to be saddled with the cost of taking voters to the poll, why should they not be called upon to pay the voters for the time they lost in exercising the franchise? One proposition was as reasonable as the other. In legalizing a corrupt practice, as the Bill proposed to do, the Government would be going back to the evil practices of the corrupt reign of Charles II., when, for the first time, the conveyance of voters to the poll was paid for by the candidates. He protested earnestly against such a measure as this being passed.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he thought that one important consideration was left out of sight in this matter. What was the chief object of holding an election? It was to collect the sense of the constituencies; and it was, therefore, right and proper to take means to enable the largest possible number of electors to record 1112 their votes. It very often happened that there was much difficulty in bringing workmen to the poll, especially when they were employed at a distance from home, and consequently from their proper polling-places. Of course, it was very desirable that men thus situated should not be virtually disfranchised. Such would be the case if they were not enabled to come to the poll by means of conveyances; unless, indeed, they choose to sacrifice either the whole or a part of a day's pay. They ought to bear that in mind, and consider how these persons could best come up to the poll and exercise their franchise. That, however, was not the only question, for they had also to consider the desirability of maintaining the law in its present state. It was tolerably clear that a law that was constantly evaded, and for the breach of which no penalties were assigned, was not entirely satisfactory. Then came the question in what way it could be altered. If they took the Spartan view of the hon. and learned Member for Beaumaris (Mr. Morgan Lloyd),no doubt they would have a distinct policy. The hon. and learned Member said—"Make this a corrupt practice;" and when he was pressed with the argument that, by doing so, the House would be giving an advantage to those who had friends willing to hire carriages, or who had carriages of their own to use, he said he was prepared to make it illegal for any person to convey a voter, even in his own carriage. Obviously, by adopting such a rule, they would make the system consistent; but such a law would undoubtedly keep a large number of voters from the poll, and would probably never be passed by the House. However, the Government had thought it desirable to have an alteration of the law which, at the present time, was practically set at nought. It was right and proper that the law should be declared one way or another. It seemed impossible to make the conveyance of voters to the poll a corrupt practice, and the only course open was to repeal the prohibition against it. It was always objectionable to have a law which was evaded with impunity. There were several arguments in favour of the alternative they had adopted. It was very doubtful whether the Bill would increase the expense of elections. That which was done clandestinely was in general done more expensively than what was 1113 done openly and legally. It was expedient that in elections expenses should be incurred through the election agent, and that a candidate who wished to conduct his election purely should be able to say—"I will pay nothing but the expenses properly passed through the election agent." As things were at present, the item for the conveyance of voters was not a regular or legitimate part of an election bill; and he believed it would be far better to alter the law as the Government proposed. He did not know whether the law was now evaded in Scotland; but under the Bill it would not be compulsory to engage carriages to take voters to the poll. Their Scotch friends could still conduct elections in their own way.

§ THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, it was useless to attempt to argue a question of this kind when there was no House to argue it before, only a remnant of the House being now present. There was no doubt that what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated was true, and that it was desirable the subject should be decided one way or another, as the law was now constantly being evaded, and it was undesirable that such a state of things should continue. But by whom ought the matter to be decided? It ought to be decided by the House of Commons, and by a full House of Commons. At that moment, however, while the Government were pressing the Bill forward, the settlement of the question one way or the other depended entirely on the opinions of the few Members who might chance to be present. It was generally understood, when the Dissolution of Parliament was announced, that no Business of any important character would be taken. He knew that the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave it to be understood that this Bill would be proceeded with; but it was not generally known what the nature of the proposal would be. Now, he could not help asking the question why, if the Government attached so much importance to the Bill, they had not introduced it earlier in the Session? The subject was not very complicated; but it made several considerable changes in the law which ought not to have been proposed just at the end of the Session. Those changes would inevitably tend to increase the practice of hiring vehicles, and, in consequence, the expenses of elections. That fact 1114 alone was a sufficient reason for taking the opinion of the whole House; and he, therefore, regretted that the Government had felt it their duty to proceed with the Bill.

§ MR. MILBANK

said, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House that the Government were trying to do all they could to collect the sense of the constituencies. On that (the Opposition) side, they had tried to do so by getting an extension of the hours of polling. Representing a county 80 miles long by 50 broad, and with 47 polling-places, he had had a good deal of experience in bringing voters to the poll, and he knew there was a great deal of difficulty in doing so, because many held back to the last merely from a desire of being carried to the poll. He trusted that after the next Election a Liberal Parliament would come in, and that they would then pass, not a retrograde Bill, but one which should be for the benefit of the whole country.

§ MR. MELDON

considered that before the House divided upon the question it should take notice that the candidates had been already fixed and determined upon. Candidates trying to get into Parliament always considered the expense; and, at the present moment, there were no candidates trying to get into Parliament who had not considered how much it would cost them to enter the House. It seemed to him, therefore, very unfair that now at the last moment without Notice, and when the House was utterly unfit to pass an opinion, the Bill should be forced upon them. The purpose of the Bill was clearly not in the interest of the candidate generally; but what its precise object was he failed to see at present. The point he had mentioned was one, however, of considerable weight; and for it and other reasons he considered the Bill should not be forced upon the present Parliament.

§ MR. W. HOLMS,

in moving, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out "and the twenty-fifth section of 'The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1868,'" said, that the object of the Amendment was to exclude Scotland from the provisions of the Bill. He believed he was speaking on behalf of the Representatives of Scotland generally when he said that they had no desire to be included in the Bill. They were not in the habit of violating the law, and candidates for Parliamentary honours were not in the habit in election contests, even in large constituencies, of employing conveyances to take voters to the polling-places. He ventured to take this opportunity of saying that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he stated that it was desirable to bring the electors to the poll, and to endeavour to find the best means of doing so, was quite correct; but that was no justification for the employment of cabs and carriages in boroughs. He had no objection to the use of carriages in counties, or in boroughs which, from their extent, were like counties; but he failed to see the slightest ground for their employment within those boroughs where the distance from the voter's residence to the poll was not excessive. He, therefore, begged to move the Amendment which stood in his name.

§ MR. ANDERSON

had entertained some hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he saw so very thin a state of the House as that which now 1116 prevailed—when the House itself was practically more than half dissolved, and when no less than 55 Members had voted against going on with the measure at all, feeling as they did so strongly the unfairness of forcing it upon the House at this late period of the Session—would not have proceeded further with the Bill. He appeared to be disappointed in that expectation, since it had been concluded to go on with the Bill. Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman had done so, he (Mr. Anderson) must be allowed to say that no ground had been shown for extending the provisions of this nefarious Bill to Scotland. Scotland, as was shown by all hon. Members who had spoken, did not at present practice any infringement of the law. Therefore, there could be no reason why the House should introduce into Scotland a provision to legalize a practice which did not exist now in any part of Scotland. There might be less to be said on behalf of England; but if the conveyance of voters was so largely practised at the present moment in the English borough elections, and the law was universally evaded, the best way of dealing with the question would be, not to repeal the law, but to attach a penalty to its infringement. He regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have selected this moment, when Parliament was about to expire, for proposing to make legal what the law declared to be illegal. He certainly did not know a single reason why the Scotch constituencies should be compelled to make use of conveyances. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said there was no compulsion, but that the constituencies could still abstain from employing cabs if they liked. No doubt that was so; but it implied a general abstention which could only be obtained by universal agreement on the part of the candidates, because if one candidate adopted this nefarious practice the others must necessarily do so. Therefore, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer said there was no compulsion, he did not give a correct view of the case. He trusted that the Government would accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. W. Holms), and exempt Scotland from the operation of the Bill.

§ MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSH

drew the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to this very important fact— 1117 that almost every Scottish Member in the House had voted against the Bill in the last division. It would be an extraordinary thing to thrust upon Scotland a measure to which it was totally opposed. He trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would, even at this last moment, leave out Scotland if he was determined to go on with the Bill.

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

believed that the Government had had a great deal of trouble during the last two or three Sessions with the Irish Home Rule Members. If they wanted to create a strong Home Rule feeling in another part of the Kingdom they could not do better than persevere with this clause, which was to force upon the people of Scotland a principle that was repugnant to their feelings. It was opposed by every Member present who had a seat for Scotland, and by some of those who had voted for the Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to make progress with the Business of the House, it would be wise to make the small concession now asked for on behalf of Scotland.

§ MR. E. JENKINS

hoped that Her Majesty's Government would re-consider the matter. He joined with the other Scotch Members in impressing upon the Government the inadvisability of making this addition to the Bill. The measure was bad enough before; but the proposal now submitted to the Committee would make matters much worse. It was proposed to tie down the high principles of Scotland and its electoral morality; and he thought the Scotch Members were justified in resisting and protesting against any such attempt. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said just now that the object of the Bill was to give an opportunity of taking what was called the sense of the community; and the right hon. Gentleman used this argument, which it was only worth while to consider because it came from the Ministerial Bench, that because there was an existing evasion of the law the law ought to be abolished. Were they to abolish every law in regard to which there was a persistent evasion? There were laws against stealing that were not always obeyed, and there were laws against murder that were persistently evaded. Were they, then, to legalize theft and assassination? He had never yet heard that argument used—although, perhaps, the time might come when it would be 1118 used by a Conservative Ministry—as a motive for changing the law. The proposal now made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to repeal the law because it was evaded; and the Scotch Members seemed to be almost the only Members left who were in favour of purity of election. [An hon. MEMBER: No.] Well, he would not exactly say that, but would modify the assertion, and would say that the Scotch Members were the only Members now left who were in favour of extreme purity of election—that extreme purity of election which enabled them to say that in no borough of Scotland whatever was it the habit to convey the voters to the poll, nor was it desirable that that practice should be resorted to. He thought Scotland had a very strong claim to be left out of the Bill; and he put it strongly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether their wishes should not be complied with.

§ MR. BAXTER

wished to add his voice to the appeal which had been made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter. He believed there was no desire whatever in Scotland for the application of the Bill to that country. He had never heard of any practice in Scotland like that which was adopted in England; and he was satisfied that the Scotch Members on both sides of the House would join in stating that the people of Scotland were quite unanimous in opinion. He did hope that that being the state of matters, and looking at the result of the recent division, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would agree to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. W. Holms).

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that, of course, it was not desirable to have more distinctions than they could help in particular parts of the United Kingdom; but, at the same time, he fully admitted that there was a difference, as far as he was able to learn, in the way in which the law was acted upon in Scotland and in England. There was no doubt that in England the law was a mere snare and delusion at present, because it was systematically evaded. It was really of no use, and was the cause of the greatest inconvenience. In Scotland, he was assured, the wording of the law corresponded with the general practice. Therefore, it was obvious that there did not arise the same difficulty which rendered it necessary to make this 1119 change in England. Therefore, as there seemed to be a general opinion on the part of the Scotch Members on the subject, the Government would be quite prepared to recognize that feeling, and to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Paisley.

§ MR. E. JENKINS

imagined that, after what had just taken place, the Government were now ready to say that they were not prepared to go on with the Bill. That would certainly be the best means of relieving themselves from the extraordinary position in which they had been placed. The position they had placed themselves in was this. They had made a concession to Scotland which they were not prepared to give to the rest of the United Kingdom. Immorality was to prevail in England, Ireland, and Wales; But the law which prohibited it was not to be touched in Scotland. He wished that the hon. and gallant Member for Truro (Sir James M'Garel-Hogg) would get up in his place and answer these statements if he was able, instead of objecting to them in an inarticulate fashion. He would repeat that the course pursued by Her Majesty's Government placed them in an absurd and anomalous position. He challenged the Government, or the hon. and gallant Member for Truro, to controvert that assertion. Anything that was passed by Parliament should be good for the whole United Kingdom; but the suggestion now made by Her Majesty's Government was that the law should be continued as it stood in regard to one part of the United Kingdom, and that it should be repealed in regard to another part. What was the difference between the borough of Durham and the borough of Dundee? The class of voters was the same; the borough was the same size; and he saw no reason why, in the one case, the voters should be conveyed to the poll at the expense of the candidate, while, on the other, they should not. His own opinion was that the same principle should apply to both. The Solicitor General based the Bill upon high moral principles. It was rather an unusual 1120 thing for a lawyer to do; but the hon. and learned Gentleman did it, and the Committee had listened to his arguments, although not without some surprise. If that was so, he wanted to know how the Government could escape from the dilemma of encouraging the morality of one part of the Kingdom, and discouraging it, or, at any rate, throwing cold water upon it in another? He did not think the hon. and gallant Member for Truro would be able to prove anything to the contrary. He awaited the hon. and gallant Member's argument with considerable curiosity. Personally, he thought that the concession made by the Government placed the Committee in an anomalous position, and that they ought not to press the measure further.

§ MR. MONK

said, he wished to say a few words before they went to a division on the clause. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had given way to the appeal made to him by the Scotch Members, on the ground that the law had, on the whole, been carried out satisfactorily in Scotland, while he said that it had been evaded in other parts of the Kingdom. But he did not propose to maintain the present law, and make it more stringent, and thus to assimilate the law in both countries. But he proposed to repeal it altogether in the case of England and Ireland, and to retain it in the case of Scotland. That was a manifest inconsistency; it was scarcely possible to be guilty of a greater one, and he was astonished to find that a right hon. Gentleman, occupying a prominent position in the Government of the country, should come down to that House and say—"We have an election law which has acted very well in one part of the Kingdom, though it has been evaded in other parts; therefore, the best thing we can do is to maintain it in Scotland, where it is generally observed, but to repeal it in regard to the rest of the Kingdom where it is evaded." The Government acknowledged that the law was good for Scotland; and if it was good for one part of the country surely it ought to be good for the whole of the country. He thought the constituencies of the Kingdom would be very much astonished, when they read the papers to-morrow, to find that the Government had maintained this law for Scotland, but were determined to repeal it in regard to England. That was the state of the case at present; but he 1121 merely presented it as a reductio ad absurdum. He sincerely trusted that the Government would rest content with the discussion that had taken place, and by withdrawing the Bill, would consent to have one general law for the whole of the Kingdom.

§ THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir HARDINGE GIFFARD)

could not help thinking that the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk) had paid very little attention to the present state of the law. The whole law was an anomaly. In the counties it remained unaltered. The provisions of the present Bill would affect only the law in boroughs, and would assimilate it to that which existed already in the counties. But in addition to the counties, the House of Commons had selected certain boroughs in which the practice was also permitted, on the ground of their extent. The Government had now consented to exempt Scotland from the operation of the clause; but they had only done so at the express wish of the Scotch Members, who had pressed it upon the Government. He quite concurred in the opinion that there was no necessity for a change in the existing law in Scotland. The Government yielded to the appeal made to them; and now hon. Members said it was illogical and absurd to proceed with the Bill, and that they ought not to make any change in the law at all. The arguments which had induced the Government to make the concession were a sufficient answer to the view of the question now put forward by hon. Members opposite.

§ MR. ANDERSON

was sure that all the Scotch Members, and all the Scotch constituencies, were very much obliged to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for making a concession in their favour; but, at the same time, he did not claim for Scotland the exclusive purity which the hon. Member for Dundee claimed for it, and he should be glad to give all the assistance in his power to the Members for England and Ireland in opposition to the Bill, not merely on Scotch grounds, but upon Imperial grounds. As a Scotch Member, he was obliged to the Government for their concession to Scotland; but, as a Member of the Imperial Parliament, he must continue to protest against the application of the Bill to England and Ireland. He was surprised that the Irish Members had not 1122 made a similar appeal to the Government as that which had been made by the Scotch Members on behalf of Scotland; but he was unable to say from his own experience whether the law was carried out in Ireland or not. If the present law was carried out in Ireland as well as in Scotland, he thought the Irish Members should make a similar appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer as that which, had been made on behalf of Scotland. As to what the hon. and learned Solicitor General had said in regard to the law being evaded at present in England, there was upon the Paper an Amendment to the same clause by the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) which would meet that objection. The object of that Amendment was to make the law uniform everywhere, and, in order to prevent it from becoming an absurdity and an anomaly, it proposed to attach a distinct penalty to the infringement of the statute. He thought the Government had placed themselves in a slightly inconsistent position by the concession they had made, and he thought the best course would be to adopt the Amendment of the hon. Member for Swansea. At the same time, as a Scotch Member, he thankfully accepted the concession which had been made to him.

§ SIR JOHN LUBBOCK

said, the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) had expressed surprise at the absence of a claim on the part of Ireland to the same concession which had been made to Scotland. If the hon. Member had noticed the state of the Irish Benches, he would have seen why the Irish Members did not object. In fact, the Irish Members were occupied elsewhere. He believed, however, that they objected very much to this Bill; and he (Sir John Lubbock), as an English Member, also wished to record his objection against it. He should be glad to know why this Bill was to be forced upon the English borough Members against the general opinion of the English borough Members? There might be solid and substantial reasons for allowing the conveyance of voters in counties; but those reasons certainly did not apply in boroughs. If the law was to be made equal, the best way would be to assimilate that of the counties to that in force in the boroughs, rather than that the law in the boroughs should be made the same as that in the counties. He did not see why the English Members 1123 should not be treated in the same way as the Scotch Members. He thought the Bill would add very much to the expense of contested elections; and, introduced as it was at the last moment in an expiring Parliament, the House generally had good reasons for entering a strong protest against the way in which they had been treated. The Bill had been sprung upon the House as a complete surprise. He had hoped, when the division showed there was so large a minority against the principle of the Bill, that Her Majesty's Government would have given way. Such a course would have been appreciated in the country; and, even now, he would make an appeal to them not to press the Bill against the strong general wish that had been expressed.

MR. OSBORNE MORGAN

really thought that the way in which the Government were forcing the Bill through the House was scarcely decent. He was not affected by the Bill, because he was a county Member; but, inasmuch as the expense of the conveyance of voters in counties frequently amounted to half the entire cost of an election, he thought the practice ought to be made illegal in counties. The hon. and learned Solicitor General had agreed to the exemption of Scotland, because, he said, Scotland was so pure and so moral; but there were many towns in Wales which were quite as pure as any in Scotland, and, therefore, when the proper time came, he should require to have that exemption extended a great deal farther. In point of fact, he wished to see no such invidious distinction made between different parts of the Kingdom, and he should give his vote in favour of making the law of England and Wales the same as that of Scotland and Ireland.

§ MR. DILLWYN

joined in the appeal to the Government that they would reconsider the question. He put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the pressing on of this Bill was not a breach of an implied understanding? He could not but think that was so. At the beginning of the Session the Government brought in a Resolution to stop obstruction. They were extremely disappointed, and read the Opposition a lecture, because they did not oppose the Resolution, and they did not know what to do. The action of the Government looked as though they wanted the 1124 Opposition to fight them in view of the Dissolution. Well, the Dissolution was announced, and the Opposition were well pleased, and promised to give the Government every facility to transact and get through the ordinary Business of the Session. But that was upon the understanding that that Business should be winding-up Business, and not taking up new matters. They did give every facility for the passing of necessary Bills; but they never expected to be called on to repeal an important clause in a former Act of Parliament as was now proposed. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he would take the Corrupt Practices Bill, no one knew that he meant anything of that kind; they thought it was a Bill of a different nature. He, therefore, did hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see the fairness of this appeal. The right hon. Gentleman had given way to the Scotch Members, of whom a good many happened to be present, and he had also given way to Ireland. Now he was asked to exempt Wales, and his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Osborne Morgan) said they were pure in Wales. He hoped they were, and he saw no reason for retaining Wales within the operation of the Bill; but he wished to join in a general appeal. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer made one exception after another, where would he stop? He had not heard the English Members; they were not there, they were scattered all over the country, they did not know the nature of the Bill. The constituencies did not know, and had had no opportunity of expressing, an opinion upon the measure. It was too large a question to be carried through in the last week of a dying Parliament, and it was a breach of an implied understanding to proceed with it. He respectfully urged the Government to notice the appeals which had been made to them, including that of the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) on the previous evening; and he pointed to the large and important minority in the last division as an additional argument for withdrawing the Bill.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) had spoken of an implied understanding; but he wished to remind the hon. Member, that on the day on which he men- 1125 tioned the Dissolution, he stated what Business the Government hoped to proceed with, and he expressly mentioned this Bill as being one that they thought they could and should proceed with. Not only so, but he took occasion to refer to some observations previously made by the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) as to the importance of dealing with the question; and he said that as the Bill which the Government first introduced could not deal with that question, it would be withdrawn, and another Bill would be introduced. Therefore, the attention of the House was from the first directed to the fact that the Government did intend to deal with the subject; and as the subject was one with which the House was familiar, there was no ground for saying that they had been taken by surprise. As to the other question which had been raised, the hon. Member said the Government admitted that the Scotch boroughs were pure, and Wales was also pure. No doubt, both those statements were quite true; and he would go further, and say the English constituencies were also pure; but the broad distinction between the English practice and the Scotch practice with regard to the conveyance of voters was this—that in the great majority of large boroughs in England it was done, whilst in Scotland they were assured it was not done. There was nothing in the law that rendered the conveyance of voters a corrupt practice, or imposed a penalty upon it; and the provision, being simply a prohibition without imposing a penalty, was exceedingly inconvenient. It was to get rid of that inconvenience that the Government proposed to legalize what was practically done at the present time. Then they were told by the Scotch Members that in Scotland the case was different, and that the Scotch practice was in conformity with the words of the law. Therefore, there was no occasion to make any alteration in order to bring the law and practice of Scotland into harmony, because they were in harmony already. That being so, the Government admitted the plea of the Scotch Members. But if the present state of things worked well in Scotland, it did not work well in England, because the difference in practice rendered it impossible to meet the spirit of the law with regard to the 1126 payment of these expenses. Having agreed to the wish of the Scotch Members, the Government were now met by them in a way which he hardly anticipated, seeing that the Government had made what they thought was a graceful concession. However, he must not complain of ingratitude; he would only say that there was reason in the one case, and not in the other.

MR. C. S. PARKER

said, he did feel grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his graceful concession to Scotland, not because he had as yet any strong opinion on the merits of the question, but because he thought the House was not in a position to decide it. It had already been pointed out that a large number of borough Members were opposed to the Bill, and the absence of those hon. Gentlemen on the present occasion was attributable to the fact that the borough elections would come on before the county elections; and, therefore, there was a greater pressure upon them. When they examined the Division Lists, they would probably find that a House chiefly composed of county Members had been employed in deciding a question affecting borough Members.

§ SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

said, he also, as a Scotch Member, felt grateful for the concession made to Scotland; but it seemed to him that if the Scotch Members, having gained their point, now deserted their English and Irish brethren, that would be the height of baseness. He was very glad, indeed, to give what assistance he could to England, Ireland, and Wales in the matter. He wished to add one word as to the declaration which was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the time the Dissolution was announced. It was true the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the Government proposed to proceed with the Bill dealing with corrupt practices, but the right hon. Gentleman did not give the House the least idea what the nature of the Bill was to be. He did not tell them it was to be for the legalization of corrupt practices, and they were led to believe that it would provide a better tribunal for trying and punishing such offences. Therefore, he thought there was some ground for the charge that this was a breach of an implied understanding. When the hon. and learned Solicitor General said Parlia- 1127 ment had already sanctioned payments for conveyance in five boroughs, it should be added that those boroughs were of the nature of counties, because the distances to be traversed were considerable. Besides, Parliament had already settled that question. What he wished to call attention to was the fact that the Amendment related to the exclusion of Ireland; and as the Scotch Members had previously enjoyed the advantage of the sympathy and support of the Irish borough Members, he thought it only right that, now the Irish borough Members had been obliged to leave on urgent business of a public character, the Scotch Members should endeavour to take their part. There was scarcely a single Irish borough Member left in the House; and, therefore, he hoped that the Government would consent to drop the clause relating to Ireland. He hoped that Ireland, as well as Scotland, was pure; but he would remind the House that the Irish were an impulsive people, and that Irish cars were somewhat dangerous vehicles.

MR. SULLIVAN

hoped sincerely that the Government would not take advantage of the absence of the Irish Representatives to persevere in their intention of bringing Ireland within the scope of the Bill. He trusted that, having agreed to omit Scotland, they would in this case do justice to Ireland. The Irish Members were always glad to take a share with their Caledonian Friends. The House would be aware that there were only a few large cities and towns in Ireland, and, therefore, the conveyance of voters could only affect a few places; but, nevertheless, he would strongly appeal to the Government to let them alone. There were not half-a-dozen Irish Members within the Palace of Westminster at that moment; and it would create a most painful impression if the Government, having acceded to the request of the Scotch Representatives, should, in the absence of the Irish Representatives, not deal in a like manner with Ireland.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON)

observed, that representations were pretty generally made to him officially by Irish Representatives with reference to Bills which they did not like. Last night there was a case in point, when two Irish 1128 Members pressed upon him the undesirability of proceeding with the Local Courts of Bankruptcy (Ireland) Bill; but he was bound to say that not a single representation had been made to him on the part of any Irish borough Members that they opposed this Bill.

MR. SULLIVAN

remarked that Ireland was not in the Bill.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON)

replied, that the hon. Member did not speak for a borough, and, therefore, he would repeat the statement which he had made. He knew that there was in some of the large boroughs a good deal of laxity; but there might be no objection to legitimatize payments for conveying voters to the poll.

MR. SULLIVAN

would ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether Ireland was mentioned in the Bill at all? He knew very well that it was not, and, therefore, how could he expect that Irish Members would appeal to him with reference to a Bill which did not include Ireland? It was now sought to bring Ireland in, and that made the matter inconceivably worse, because it would be in the nature of a surprise.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON)

said, the allegation of surprise was rather a doubtful point. The hon. Member knew very well that if Ireland was not expressly excluded from an Act of Parliament, it must be taken to be included.

§ MR. ERRINGTON

said, an appeal had been made to the Irish Members to express their opinions on the subject. The hon. Baronet the Member for Maidstone (Sir John Lubbock) had clearly shown why the Irish Borough Members were silent, and he did not think that that silence could be very well construed into consent. The reason given for their silence was the very strongest reason why the Government should leave Ireland out of the Bill. It would be a very extraordinary step on the eve of a General Election, when everybody was anxious to be away on important business, to make such an important change as the Government proposed. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland had referred to the representations made to him against Irish Bills being forced on at this period, and perhaps the measure now in question was even more important, because 1129 it bore directly upon the elections themselves. He was grateful to the Scotch Members for their support, and he was sure that had the Irish Members realized at an earlier period the magnitude of the change that was to be made in the electoral law, they would not have left the duty of opposing it in the hands of their Scotch Friends. They were no more in favour than were the Scotch Members of a Bill whose effect would be to legalize corruption at borough elections.

§ MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

thought the right hon. and learned Attorney General for Ireland was wrong in speaking of the Amendment put down by the hon. and learned Attorney General as a mere drafting Amendment, and in stating that if Ireland were not expressly mentioned, the Bill would necessarily apply to Ireland. The fact was that the substantive part of the Bill was a measure to repeal a part of the Representation of the People Act, 1869; but that Act applied only to England, and, therefore, the Amendment of the hon. and learned Attorney General was necessary in order to repeal the same clause of the Representation of the People (Ireland) Act. The Amendment was only put upon the Paper yesterday, and, therefore, the Irish Members had not had an opportunity of understanding that it was intended by the Government. They had had no Notice whatever, they were absent, and it was totally contrary to all precedent to apply, at a moment's Notice, for a clause of that importance.

MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHY

hoped the Government would accede to the number of appeals that had been made to them, and would leave Ireland out of the Bill. It was a very extraordinary thing, on the face of it, that when any portion of the old system of electoral corruption had been got rid of, the Government should find any possible excuse for attempting to re-enact it. Surely, if they wished to give more license, this was hardly the time to bring about such a change. The absence of the Irish borough Members had been explained, and he believed that there was only one, the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell), anywhere near the House, and he had already spoken strongly against this measure. The idea that the Scotch Members were somewhat ungrateful because, when they had got their country saved from the 1130 Bill, they would not abandon England and Ireland, was absurd. A concession of that kind, with such a reservation, would become not so much a concession as a bribe. It would be tantamount to saying—"You are strong, you can have your way; but we shall want from you as a condition of your own exemption, that you allow us to force this objectionable system on England and Ireland and Wales." He was very much obliged to the Scotch Members for their steadfast opposition to the Government proposal. If the Government wanted equality, let them attain it by levelling down the system of corruption, and getting rid of it altogether, instead of levelling up so as to reproduce a corruption which had been thought to be abolished. He earnestly hoped the Government would press the matter no further. If it were forced upon Ireland, it certainly would create great surprise and indignation when it became known.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he must object to a phrase, which he used rather playfully than otherwise, being made such serious use of. When he said the Scotch Members were not grateful, he did not mean to imply that hon. Members who objected to the Bill should waive their objections to it, because he had agreed to the exemption of Scotland. He wished to point out to the House what the real action of the Government in this matter had been. In the first instance, what the Government proposed to do was to bring in a Bill for the continuance of the Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices Act. They introduced a mere Continuance Bill, and when it had been introduced, the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke), who took great interest in those questions, expressly challenged them upon the question whether they did not intend to deal with the subject of conveyance of voters. The hon. Baronet pointed out, and many other hon. Members for English boroughs supported him, that the subject was in a position in which it was most inconvenient that it should be left. That related to England, and the reason why it was inconvenient was that the practice in the large boroughs of England was different to the wording of the law. That being so, he proposed to withdraw the Bill which had then been introduced, 1131 and to bring in another which would deal with the question before the Dissolution; and he expressly stated that it would deal with the question which the hon. Baronet had drawn attention to. He most distinctly drew attention to it; and if the hon. Baronet were only now present, he was quite certain the hon. Baronet would confirm his recollection of what took place when the hon. Baronet acceded to the proposal with his usual courtesy. Well, the Bill was introduced in a form which he did not particularly remark at the time would have applied only to England, for it dealt only with the English Act. That point was afterwards observed, and Amendments were put down by the hon. and learned Attorney General to carry it over the whole of the United Kingdom. It was certainly possible, and, indeed, not improbable, that the point which did not seem to have attracted the same attention in Ireland that it had attracted in other parts of the United Kingdom might have escaped the attention of the Irish Members, who might not have been aware that the Bill was intended to apply to Ireland. At all events, it was quite certain that there had been no interest felt in the matter in Ireland. No representations of any sort had been made, and the point seemed to be one of comparatively little urgency or importance there. He would remind the Committee that the Bill was, in its nature, of a temporary character. It only proposed to continue the Parliamentary Elections Act to the end of the year 1881; but it was important in this respect that, in regard to this particular question of the conveyance of voters, it contained a provision which was intended to apply to the Elections that were immediately at hand. There were strong reasons for passing such a clause with regard to Ireland. Those reasons had been shown not to exist in the case of Scotland—at all events, to the same extent—and there was no reason particularly to believe that they existed to the same extent in Ireland; and the Government would be quite prepared to allow this Amendment of the Attorney General's, which was a, post facto Amendment, to be withdrawn, and to confine the Bill to the case of England. [A laugh.] Well, hon. Gentlemen might laugh; but the Bill was intended to meet a difficulty, which was not a theoretical, 1132 but a practical difficulty. The practice they complained of largely existed, and he ventured to say that a large number of hon. Gentlemen had been systematically in the habit of resorting to that which would be made legal by this Bill. The question of purity was absolute nonsense; and when it was said that this was a Bill which implied that they were to have more corruption in England than in other parts of the United Kingdom, he said that was unmitigated and undiluted nonsense. There was no doubt whatever that the practice of the conveyance of voters was one which was perfectly reconcilable with the utmost purity of election. The Government would now withdraw the Amendment, and adhere to the Bill in the form in which it was originally introduced.

§ MR. H. SAMUELSON

remarked, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the objection that the Bill would act against the purity of election was pure and unmitigated nonsense. Now, he (Mr. H. Samuelson) was perfectly certain that it would open a door to corruption, and in a great number of boroughs it would enable pressure to be put upon the owners of vehicles, and enable candidates to bribe them by hiring their conveyances. If he might use an expression not much stronger than that used by the right hon. Gentleman, he would say that it was disgraceful on the part of the Government to persist in thrusting such a Bill down the throats of an unwilling Parliament, against the declared wishes of almost every borough Member who had spoken. The unfairness of the course adopted by Government was manifest, when hon. Members considered how impossible it was to obtain a proper expression of opinion on the subject in the then deserted condition of the House. Speaking for himself, he might say that he had had occasion to gather the opinion of more than one or two constituencies upon the subject since it had been before the House; and he could unhesitatingly affirm that public opinion was strongly against the proposal. Then the right hon. Gentleman had told them something that required a little investigation. He said that the Bill was only a temporary measure; but he quite forgot that to repeal a section of an Act of Parliament was not a temporary measure, but a statute intended to remain in force permanently. He (Mr. H. Samuelson) pre- 1133 sumed that a clause once repealed stood repealed—not temporarily, but for all time—unless it were re-enacted by a new law. Nobody objected to the continuance of the Act which the Bill proposed to continue; but what they did object to was having forced upon England a provision which was not considered proper for Scotland and Ireland. He asked the Government to go one step further in their concessions, and to withdraw the clause altogether.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, he must point out to the Committee that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed his wish to withdraw the Amendment now before it. That was an Amendment containing a proposal to include in the Bill the case of Ireland. If the Committee were desirous of continuing the discussion upon the case of England, it would probably be found the most convenient course to withdraw the Amendment in the first instance.

§ MR. MONK

said, he desired to say a word or two with regard to the withdrawal of Ireland from the operation of the clause. Scotland had already been withdrawn from the operation of the Bill. Ireland was now to be withdrawn also, and England and Wales were alone to be affected. Under these circumstances, he would ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the necessity for the Bill at all? It was not the 2nd clause of the Bill that was wanted. No clause of the Bill was wanted. The Corrupt Practices Act was in force until the end of the year, and there would be ample time, when the new Parliament met, to consider the whole question; and whatever Government happened to be in Office, it would become its duty to bring in the Bill which the present Government were on the point of introducing a week ago. The effect of this clause, in regard to England would be, as it would have been in the case of Ireland and Scotland, to increase the expense of elections. It was all very well to say that the law was in some cases evaded; but if they legalized the payment of these expenses, the result would be that they would prevent a large number of candidates from coming forward, who would be unable to bear the enormous expense that would be put upon them by legalizing the conveyance of voters to the 1134 poll. As the hon. Member for Frome (Mr. H. Samuelson) had just stated, it would act as a bribe to many cab-owners and livery-stable keepers. It would be necessary for the candidates to engage every vehicle, not only in the town, but in the neighbourhood. It was a movement in the wrong direction; it was a movement that would prevent a poor man from having a seat in that House. He confessed that he was astonished the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer should persist in endeavouring to force the Bill, at this period of the existence of Parliament, down the throats of hon. Members, when he had been obliged to give way with regard to Scotland and Ireland. He hoped that not only would the Amendment be withdrawn, but that the Bill itself would be withdrawn with it.

§ MR. MORGAN LLOYD

said, he had an Amendment which would come before that which had been placed on the Paper by the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn). He proposed, in page 1, line 19, to move, after the word "repealed," to insert the words "except as regards Wales."

THE CHAIRMAN

said, the Amendment suggested by the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) would come before that. He was bound to say that he had considered with very great care the question submitted to the Committee in that Amendment, and it appeared to him that the effect of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Swansea, if it were adopted, would not merely be to annul the object of the Bill; but that, practically, the ultimate effect of it would be to reverse it. When the House sent a Bill to a 1135 Committee for the express purpose of having its clauses considered, to reverse the object of the Bill and to send back to the House a measure which carried out exactly opposite objects, would be irregular. It was open to the hon. Member for Swansea to raise the question he was desirous of dealing with on the Report of the Bill, because that would be considered by the House itself, and the House would be its own master. It certainly appeared to him, that so far as the Committee were concerned, they were required by the House to consider any Bill sent to them in accordance with the objects with which it had been sent.

§ MR. DILLWYN

said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them that this clause, as it now stood in the statute was a delusion and a snare, and his (Mr. Dillwyn's) object in proposing this Amendment was to make the enactment which it was proposed to repeal something otherwise than a delusion and a snare. He had thought that that would be a better mode of carrying out the object and intention of the Act, than by repealing the clause; but if the Chairman said that he was out of Order, he would at once bow to the hon. Gentleman's ruling. He did not think the Amendment had the effect which the Chairman attributed to it; but if the hon. Gentleman thought so, he would not press it.

§ MR. E. JENKINS

rose to a point of Order, and what he was about to say would be said with all due respect to the Chair. He wished to call attention to the fact that this clause proposed to change a clause in the Representation of the People Act, and that the clause in the Representation of the People Act was immediately directed to the point raised by the hon. Member for Swansea. The clause in question said that it should not be lawful for any candidate, or for anyone on his behalf, at any election, to pay any money on account of the conveyance of a voter to the poll, either to the voter himself or to any other person, or for any other person to receive it from the candidate, and so on. He 1136 submitted very humbly that that clause raised the whole question. It was raised directly by the Bill before the Committee, and his hon. Friend the Member for Swansea (Mr, Dillwyn) was right in proposing a certain other mode of dealing with the question that was not laid down by this particular clause. The mode suggested in his hon. Friend's Amendment was that penalties could be imposed for an infringement of the law, instead of repealing the clause in the Representation of the People Act. He begged to submit that point to the consideration of the Chair, and to ask if it had not been overlooked—namely, that the whole section of the Representation of the People Act was dragged into discussion?

THE CHAIRMAN

said, that was not at all the question before the Committee. The Bill proposed to repeal the 36th section of the Representation of the People Act of 1867. The effect of that section of the Act of 1867 was to declare a certain practice to be illegal. The object of the present clause was to make that practice legal. The proposal of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) was not only to leave the practice illegal, but, by amending the clause, to attach a penalty to the illegality, and to affirm the opposite of the principle; in point of fact, to reverse the principle which it was sought by the Bill to affirm. That being so, it appeared to him that it was not within the functions of the Committee to take such a course without the sanction of the House.

§ MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

said, he had no wish to call in question the ruling of the Chair; but he ventured to suggest whether it would not be competent to strike out the words of the clause, and then to insert another clause in the sense of the proposal of the hon. Member for Swansea. The Bill was not confined to the repeal of this particular clause, but had other objects in view—namely, to continue the Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices Act. This was an essential part of that Act, and, therefore, it appeared to him that, having struck out that particular clause repealing this provision of the Corrupt Practices Act, they might alter the Corrupt Practices Act in the sense proposed by the hon. Member for Swansea. If that were correct, surely the same process could be effected in any one clause. 1137 If it were possible to strike out the clause, and then move an Amendment in the sense of the proposal of the hon. Member for Swansea, surely they could do the same thing by one process which they would have power to do by two.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, that the observations of the hon. Member for Heading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) would have great force, if this was one of the sections of the Act it was proposed to continue; but the Bill simply proposed to continue the Corrupt Practices Act, and the section affected by the Amendment was one of the Representation of the People Act which it was not proposed by the present Bill to continue. The proposal made by the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) could only be considered by the House and not by a Committee. The House was entirely its own master and could frame its own propositions, which a Committee was not always at liberty to do.

§ MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

said, that, looking at the difficulty in which the Committee was placed, and the extreme importance of discussing the question from every point of view, and considering the alternative proposal of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn), it became a question whether, instead of repealing this provision of the