HC Deb 12 February 1849 vol 102 cc589-626

The House having gone into Committee,


said, that it was not his intention to press the Amendment which stood in his name on the present occasion. He would not take upon himself the responsibility of opposing a vote which he believed to be absolutely necessary, and the object of which was to prevent the starvation of numbers of the Irish people. If any proposition to that effect was made, he hoped the Committee would not listen to it. But supposing that the Committee would agree to the vote, he would only attach one condition to it. It was now understood in Ireland that the poor had a right to relief in the extremity of destitution. And if the Committee came to a vote which should have the effect of doing away with that right, it would not only incur the heaviest of responsibilities, but would give a license to plunder to those in whose behalf that right had been proclaimed. The refusal of relief had gone to a lamentable extent. The vice-guardians of Ballina and Westport had declared that they refused relief in a great many cases in which, in their opinion, relief was necessary. That was incurring a dangerous responsibility on their part, but if they had not sufficient funds in hand he did not know what they could do. Now, if they under such circumstances refused this vote, or if they declared to those starving paupers who had been once admitted to relief as a right that they would have it no longer, they would render themselves liable to all the fatal consequences that might ensue. He would, therefore, on a future occasion, endeavour to persuade the House to agree to this condition— that the money voted should not he a grant, but a loan, which he believed would afford security against its being improperly administered, and also against the continuance of future applications. If voted as a grant, it would encourage future applications and the non-payment of the poor-rates.


then rose to move the Amendment of which he had given notice:— On Motion for Relief of Distress (Ireland), to insert after the word 'that' the words 'the Collectors of Excise in Ireland be henceforth directed, and do in future pay into the office of Vice-Treasurer in Dublin the amount of all Crown and quit-rents, and that the same be appropriated to the Relief of distressed Poor Law Unions in that Country.' He complained of the attacks that had been made upon the people of Ireland, and assured the House that he, for one, did not come there to beg; and he believed if the people of that country were but fairly treated, they would do without assistance from England. These were the premises he would lay down, and it would be for hon. Members to say whether he made out his case or not. There was quite enough of money in Ireland to support the people if they would only leave it there. There were such items as "Paid to Queen Victoria, 10 gs.; paid to Queen Victoria, 20 gs.; paid to Queen Victoria, 50 gs.; and so on; and these vouchers were lying in Dublin in the bank. Let that money not be taken out of the country, and there would be no necessity for their coming to England to ask relief. The objection of hon. Members in that House was that English money should be devoted to Irish purposes; but here was a case of Irish money lying there which there could be no objection to devote to Irish purposes. When the adventurers, as they were called, the drummers and filers of Cromwell, came over to Ireland, and the London companies, they had largo tracts of land divided amongst them, for which they had paid merely a small sum of 1d. or 1½d. per acre, by way of quit-rent; that money amounted to about 70,000l. annually; and although it had been somewhat reduced of late, it still averaged 55,000l. per annum. Now let them come to a proper understanding, and when hon. Members talked of their coming to England to ask for money, let them first refund the money which belonged to Ireland. Lot them only leave the money there instead of carrying off these Crownrents and quit-rents to decorate Carlton House at one time, and St. James's Palace at another. There could be neither justice, nor propriety, nor good sense in acting thus, and then saying that the Irish came to that House as mendicants. He did not think the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Trelawny), was justified in sneering in that way at the Irish Members and the Irish people. If the Irish landlords only did their duty, there would be no necessity for their coming to that House to ask for assistance. But, independently of this, there were the rents of the great absentees, which were drawn from his country and spent in this. He had a list of them, and be would give their names. There were the Duke of Devonshire and the Duke of Buckingham. He, to be sure, was sold out. His property amounted to about 400,000l. Mr. White, formerly a Member of that House, bought three town-lands for 25,000l. He knew that they were afterwards set up for sale, and sold for 14,500l. The Times, and Morning Post, and Morning Herald had been abusing the Irish Members and the Irish people, and had set the lower against the upper owners. They had taunted and insulted them. They would defend themselves, and show that the mischief of Ireland arose from the absentees. They might be excellent men, but they were bad landholders—they might be very good Englishmen, but they were bad Irish proprietors. There were the Marquess of Hertford and the Duke of Bedford. The Duke of Bedford was a very good man, but he bad a poor tenantry—Irish tenantry. There was the Marquess of Conyngham, who said that he had not the means of improving his property. Where were all his means spent? In this country. There were the Marquess of Lansdowne, the Marquess of Anglesea, the Marquess of Donegal, and the Marquess of Bath. The tenantry of the latter were in a wretched condition; the property was quite bare—wood or tree scarcely to be seen on any part of it. Then came the Marquess of Ely and Earl Fitzwilliam, a most excellent man. There were Lords Essex, Audley, Maryborough, Middleton, Albemarle, Clifton, Ashbrook, Arden, Stafford, Lifford, Templemore, Colonel Wyndham, and Mr. Sidney Herbert. All of these might be excellent individuals, but they resided out of the country; and any person who knew the value of a resident gentry could from this circumstance account for the misery of Ireland. Mr. Greville, Mr. Lane Fox, and Mr. Ormsby Gore had also large properties in Ireland. He suggested that the best thing they could do would be to impose a tax of 10 per cent upon the absentee landlords; if they did that the people of Ireland would willingly dispense with their 50,000l. Hon. Members said they would grant it because it would be the last he said, "No"—it was only the beginning of a series. If they were to be thus treated as mendicants, it would be better for them at once to take off their clothes, and come to that House in the old garments that had been sent to Ireland. He had already mentioned one fund, and he would now mention another he would go back to the petition of right, when the poor Catholics were duped after granting 130,000l. to King Charles. But that was not all. In 1782 the Irish Parliament gave 20,000l. to support 20,000 seamen, which they voted for the protection of England. That was not all. When the late Earl Fitzwilliam was sent to Ireland, the Catholics were promised their rights, and, on the faith of that Parliament, voted 250,000l. The money was paid; but the moment it was paid the compact was broken. The letters of the Earl of Carlisle and Lord Fitzwilliam proved that. Here there were 130,000l., 20,000l., and 250,000l., making altogether 400,000l., which had been given to this country by the people of Ireland. He would take the absentee rents drawn from Ireland at 3,000,000l., though he believed it was nearer four millions. This drain existed for the last fifty years, which made a total of 150,000,000l. He defied the ablest arithmetician to say that these figures were wrong. Take the Crown rents at an average of 70,000l. for fifty years, and that would make 4,200,000l., so that instead of coming as beggars to that House, he would take the liberty of telling the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he would find it difficult to contravene the fact, that there was altogether a sum of 158,000,000l. sterling taken out of Ireland during the last fifty years. He trusted that the hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. Trelawny), now that he had heard these facts, would blush for shame for the attacks he had made upon the Irish people. He thought the hon. Member was altogether unjustified in the charges he had brought against them; he should be glad to know whether the hon. Gentleman really thought that the people of Ireland had swindled the country. He cared little for their 50,000l. that was to be voted that night, because he could tell them that 50,000l. would not do, nor five times 50,000l. He thought it better to speak out and be honest at once. He had never been insensible to the kindness of England; but when he heard so much talk of the British Association, and the large sums subscribed by the people of England, he would first remind them that the whole amount did not exceed 600,000l., and that if the names of the subscribers were looked over, it would be found that a great portion of them were persons who were connected by property or relationship with Ireland. He admitted, however, the kindness and the liberality of England in the season of Ireland's distress; but they had heard quite enough of it from the hon. Member for Tavistock, and he would say to him— To John I owe some obligation, But John hath lately thought it fit To publish it to all the nation, So John and I are more than quit. And he believed, if the accounts were fairly balanced between the two countries, Ireland would be found to owe England nothing. In reality the debt and the obligation lay the other way—not money merely, but empire; for let the people of England bear in mind who it was that really wished to separate Ireland from England. It was one of their own countrymen—not one of the mere gentry, but one of the nobility, a high and titled bishop—the Bishop of Derry—who rode in at the head of 5,000 followers, and said to the Earl of Charlemont, "Now is the time for us to slip the connexion—let us have blood, and blood enough." "No," said Lord Charlemont, "there shall be no bloodshed if I can help it," for his Lordship was attached to the connexion with England, and he, with other Irishmen, united together in opposition to such a proceeding. What was the use of this grant? Why, this 50,000l would not last the Irish any time. Twopence out of every 1s. of it would only go to feed the poor, and the 10d. would be divided amongst the officers and staff. There were 131 unions in Ireland, and it appeared that there were 50 more to be added. Did they really think that this would remedy the evil? Why they built the most ridiculous teetotum poor-houses that could be conceived, which cost 5,000l. to 8,000l. and 12,000l. They gave the paupers gardens too, and so very generous were they in their attentions to them, that they gave them for their odours sweet peas and mignionette. There was a ridicule accompanying this extravagance that was quite disgusting. In the union to which he helonged, one of the guardians, who had nothing else to do, pushed his stick through the wall of the workhouse, it was so very ill-constructed. In the Celbridge union, they had kept down the rate by voluntary assessment. In consequence of its having the advantage of a better resident gentry than other parts of the country possessed, they were able to get rid of the Government officers, and to support the poor themselves. They owed the Government a small sum of 30l., which he would be willing to pay them back; for he did not want their money. He held in his hand a book, called "The Irish Crisis," which he was informed was published and circulated at the expense of Government. A former hon. Member for Sligo had once accused him (Mr. Grattan) almost of treason, because he had attended a meeting where there was a banner on which was represented a harp without a crown. Now, he found that this book had got upon the cover the harp without the crown. Merely such a thing as this might be made evidence against some of the unfortunate Irish who were charged with high treason. He had purchased this book before the Act was passed for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus; for if he had bought it now, it was possible he would be arrested under this Act and thrown into prison. This book, however, was written by an Englishman high in favour with the Government. It commenced and ended with misstatement. It depicted the poverty of the Irish, and reproached them for their poverty. It libelled the people of Ireland for being poor, told them that they were slaves, and informed them that they were never fitted to take part in such proceedings as those of '82. What did the writer get for that publication? If he (Mr. Grattan) had come to the door of the House a poor, creeping creature, demanding charity, he would have been offered a farthing; but here was an English gentleman who had been made a knight, and rewarded by a vote of 2,000l. for writing a book which added insult to injury as regarded the Irish nation. He believed Lord Clarendon to be an honest man; but, at the same time, he thought he was very ill-advised. The Habeas Corpus Suspension Act was not wanted in Ireland, but it was necessary in order to keep their eyes and their ears closed until the revolution was completed. There was now a gradual change of property in progress. Their policy was, first to vilify the Irish people, to call them barbarians—their priesthood, surpliced ruffians—their landlords, tyrants, exterminators; and these same landlords they were now endeavouring to sweep down in one general mass of ruin. It happened that a friend of his, an individual in this town, had lent 50,000l. in Ireland against his (Mr. Grattan's) advice, and he had never been able since to obtain any interest for his money. He did not wonder at the disrelish of the English to speculate in that country; for who would leave his soft downy bed in London to sit upon a naked rock in Connemara? He was not a leader nor exterminator; he liked the aristocracy; he preferred the coach-and-six to the miserable one-horse chaise. If they gave the Irish freedom, they would support them in war or peace; but if they gave them chains and slavery, they would hate them, and they would get rid of them when they could. Now, there was nothing like speaking the truth. The Irish would act as the English themselves would act under similar circumstances—as the Norman barons at Runnymede acted—as their ancestors had acted in the time of Charles I., and in the time of James H.; they would stand up for the civil and religious liberties of their country. They ought to tax the absentees, if they would not send them back to Ireland. The time would come when they would regret not having done so. Let them not pride themselves, in their vain glory, upon their wooden walls and their military forces. The might depend upon it, if republicanism had succeeded upon the Continent, the Irish people would not be left in their present low and miserable condition; the exigencies of the empire would have compelled that House to do them justice. The time might come when this country would deeply regret their policy towards the sister country. There might be a reflux of the tide, when the Irish people would obtain what they wanted. Whatever might happen, he should have the satisfaction of supporting that which he considered more conducive to the interests of both countries; for he would rather suffer his right hand to be cut away from his body than take any other course. He was for freedom for England equally with Ireland. His countrymen were born equal to the English; and he would never submit to behold an Irishman treated as a slave. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Amendment.


said, he apprehended that the proposition of the hon. Member for Meath could not be entertained. It was a Motion affecting the Crown rents. It was, therefore, not competent for the hon. Gentleman to submit such a Motion.


Her Majesty's name does not appear in this proposition.


The hon. Gentleman will perceive by the terms of his proposition that he intends to deal with the revenue of the Crown. It is not competent for any hon. Member to bring forward a Motion professing to deal with the Crown revenues, unless with the consent of the Crown signified in a proper manner.

The Amendment was then withdrawn.


said, he looked upon the speech which had just been made as conveying an accusation against every absentee. [Mr. GRATTAN: I made no accusation.] Although he resided in England, he was proud to acknowledge his connexion with Ireland, and to remember that he once had the honour of representing an Irish county; he also felt proud at the recollection that not much more than two years ago his tenantry in Ireland assembled and voted him one of the handsomest memorials of gratitude that had ever emanated from any similar body, for his kindness to them, and his attention to their wants. Under those circumstances he felt perfectly at case with regard to the arraignment of the hon. Member (Mr. Grattan). Agreeing in a great deal of what had fallen from him, he did not concur in all that he had said with regard to absentees. Although an absentee landlord might not spend so much money in the country as he would if he resided in it, still, if he per-formed his duty to his tenantry, and took care of the public institutions of the country, he could hardly be expected to do more. No man could reside in six or seven different places at once. His (Mr. O. Gore's) tenantry in Cornwall might much more justly accuse him of being an absentee landlord than his tenantry in Ireland; while even if he resided in Sligo, his tenantry in Westmeath might complain because he did not reside amongst them. It was impossible, he repeated, to reside everywhere. He entertained a sincere affection for Ireland, having spent there a very happy portion of his life, and there was not a week in which he had not some communication with that country. It was curious that on that very day—the day on which he had boon arraigned as an absentee—he had received letters from Sligo, from Leitrim, and from the county of Meath, on the very subject then before the House. He could enter fully into the feelings of the hon. Member (Mr. Grattan), with regard to absentees; especially when he recollected that the hon. Member's father, one of the ablest men that Ireland ever possessed, stood up boldly in his place to oppose the measure which deprived Ireland of a resident gentry by depriving her of her Protestant Parliament. Ireland would never get that Parliament again—it was out of the question. It was his (Mr. O. Gore's) firm conviction that Ireland had always been shamefully ill treated by all the Governments of this country, especially in having been robbed of her staple manufactures over and over again. Need he go into details? Ireland was not understood even at the present day. 50,000l.! Why, all the gold of California would not place her in her proper position. He was not opposed to the existence of a poor-law; but he wanted to see one suited to the country, not one which was a bonus on idleness. He would now read an extract from one of the letters to which he had previously referred; premising that the writer, who was, in fact, his own agent, had, at his request, established an agricultural society among the tenantry in Sligo; and that in the last year from twenty to thirty prizes had been distributed. The agent said— The rating for the support of the infirm is of little consequence, as it cannot exceed a shilling in the pound; but if some radical change—[he hogged pardon of the House for the use of the word 'radical']—if some radical change be not made for the support of able poverty, it will consume, in these free-trade times, the property of the country. That Irish labourers were equal to any in the world was proved in 1816, on a comparison of work performed by Irish and English labourers on his own estate in Shropshire. He should oppose this vote of 50,000l. on principle, wholly objecting, as he did, to constant applications to this country for that support which would not be at all wanted if Ireland was properly governed and properly managed.


said, however natural it might have been for the hon. Member (Mr. O. Gore) who had last addressed the House to reply to what he considered a personal attack upon his private conduct as a landlord, still it would be his duty to recall in a few words the attention of the House to subjects which were not of a personal, but of a national character. If the part which he had taken in the House with respect to Irish business, and his conduct with respect to his own property in Ireland, did not sufficiently exculpate him from a charge of want of feeling in relieving the distress of Ireland, at least the fact that he was connected with property in one of the unions which it was intended to relieve out of the proposed grant, would be sufficient to prove his sincerity in the course he was prepared to take with respect to the present measure. The year they had now entered upon, was one that must be marked with great results for good or evil in the history of Ireland; and as they had now experienced not only the political, but still more the social causes of the difficulty and misery under which that island laboured, it was gratifying to him to be enabled to address a House of Commons more disposed than any which had ever assembled to discuss the social evils of Ireland, at all events in no sectarian or party spirit. Her Majesty's Ministers had come forward and asked for a sum which had already, in the course of the evening, been characterised, upon both sides of the House, as miserably inadequate to its professed purpose. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer had distinctly stated that it was only the first of a series. He (Mr. Stafford) hoped that under such circumstances the House would bear with him while he adverted to the grants which had been made from time to time towards the relief of Irish distress. By a return moved for in July, 1847, by the hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice), the amount of taxes levied in England, and not levied in Ireland, amounted to 10,500,000l To this there ought to be added an allowance for the differential duties which existed in favour of Ireland. Such, for example, as the hawkers' license, charged at 4l. in England, and only 2l. in Ireland, and even in that case no revenue had hitherto been derived from the tax. If such an allowance was made, it was not too much to say that the hon. Member for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall) was correct in stating that the difference in taxation between the two countries amounted to eleven millions. The next paper to which he would refer, was one moved for in 1848 by his right hon. Friend the Member for Stamford (Mr. Herries), of the sums actually voted for the relief of Irish distress; and he found that the amount stated was 9,536,675l other items, however, were specified in subsequent pages, which brought up the sum to 10,000,000l. By a return moved for in 1845 by the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell), it appeared that upwards of 11,000,000l had been voted from the national exchequer to the erection of workhouses and other purposes connected with the poor-law. In the absence of all information from the Government as to what further sum might be required for the use of the twenty-one distressed unions, he had endeavoured, by comparing two poor-law returns—the one ending with April and the other with July—to arrive at something like an estimate of the amount of pauperism to be provided for. From these returns he found that in the last week of April, in the twenty-one unions, 270,051 persons were receiving out and indoor relief; and in July the number was 414,807. It was stated in these papers that twenty shillings would—according to the then prices of provisions—afford relief to each pauper for three quarters of a year; and he assumed that, in consequence of the greater cheapness of provisions at the present period, the same amount would now afford similar relief for a whole year. He would assume, too, and he was sure it was a very moderate proposition, that the amount of pauperism in these unions had not increased since July last. The real truth, he conceived, on this point was, that while there was a small diminution of the number of those receiving relief during the harvest, there had been an increase in the number since the harvest. He would take, therefore, one pound per head, in accordance with the statement in these papers as to the amount required for the relief of each pauper, and it would thus appear that a sum of 414,000l. would be requisite for the purposes of relief in the twenty-one unions for one year. But in addition to the paupers who had been supported last year by this system of relief, no fewer than 200,000 children had also been relieved out of the funds at the disposal of the British Association, under 'the superintendence of its agent, Count Strzelecki, whose name and whose zealous exertions in behalf of the suffering Irish ought never to be mentioned without respect and gratitude. He found, therefore, that the year's expenditure in these twenty-one unions had been 468,101l.; that, towards that sum, there had been collected 19,023l.; that there had been advanced to them 237,200l.; that the debts duo from them amounted to 123,985l.; and that the available rate was 273,481l. He doubted the propriety, however, of depending upon what was called the "available rate" returns, for he would defy those connected with the south of Ireland to bring him one case in which the rate had ever been realised—and he considered he was entitled to add a considerable sum to the amount under the head of "debts" of these unions. The result, however, was, that they had 414,000 paupers receiving relief; that they had, besides, at least 100,000 children to be relieved; and, in the absence of any clear and positive information from the Government, and being unable to ascertain what the real amount of destitution was, and what was to be the process for the future, he had come to the conclusion that half a million of money would be absolutely required to maintain the poor in the twenty-one unions from this time till the month of February, 1850. But of the unions in Ireland it had been said there were some ton or eleven, in which, with proper care and management, financial difficulties might be avoided. He much wished the Government had named which those unions were. He asked the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland (Sir W. Somerville) if some unions in Clare and Limerick were not included in that number? Whether, for instance, the union of Newcastle, in the county of Limerick, and the union of Ennis, were not among them? The right hon. Gentleman had understated his case; and he believed that, instead of some ten or eleven unions in which financial difficulty might be avoided, it would turn out that a few months, or even weeks, would add more unions to the list of those already in difficulties. If such, then, was the case with respect to their present position, what, let him ask, were their prospects for the future with reference to these unions? Assuming that they granted this sum—that the House voted this half-million of money all at once, or was ready to advance it in ten successive grants of similar amount—what results would they have produced by this liberality? Those who had read even in a cursory manner the report of the Miscellaneous Estimates Committee of last year, or who had looked through the return which had been moved for by the hon. and learned Gentleman the late Member for Bolton (Dr. Bowring), would be aware that nothing could exceed the perplexing state in which many of the accounts between England and Ireland were kept. With the exception of the poor-law, and the details connected with that system, all their accounts were in perplexity and confusion; it was, however, some satisfaction to know that, so far as the poor-law was concerned, these things would in future be avoided. But the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he made his statement to the House—a most candid, he must say he thought it, and ingenuous statement—declared explicitly that, so far from there being any symptom of returning prosperity in Ireland, more land was laid waste, more capital was leaving the country, more landlords were being ruined, and fewer labourers were being employed. This being the case—and he now came to the more practical part of the question—this being the case made out by Her Majesty's Government, he need not remind hon. Gentlemen acquainted with the process of agriculture, that a very important time of the year, as regarded agricultural operations, was now at hand. And what prospect was there, he asked, that they had—if they should vote this money—expended this 50,000l. to support the pool—what certainty had they that the state of all these districts would not be much worse than even it now was, in the month of February, 1850? He firmly believed that it would not only he worse than now, but that desolation would have greatly progressed and extended; and it was for the House to determine within the next few weeks, or even days, whether that desolation should be suffered to proceed, or whether any check should be placed upon its progress. Those who read these papers would see that there was the greatest disinclination to grow spring corn in these districts. In page 5 would be found the evidence of Colonel Gore, the lieutenant of the county Sligo, and a magistrate of Mayo, who said that he was a constant resident upon his estate in the Ballina union; that, before the famine of 1846, he employed near a hundred men a day, to whom he paid weekly wages; that, since 1846, he had lost near one-third of his small tenants; that one-third of his property was unproductive at present, the unproductive part being pretty equally divided between deserted lands and those held by tenants who could not, or would not, pay rent; and that he paid over 1,500l. rates since 1846, and owned none, having always made it a point to pay his rates the moment he got the means. The hon. Member also referred to another instance of a proprietor who, having gone over from Lancashire to invest capital in Ireland, had found the rates so oppressive that he had left his land, dismissed 120 labourers, and gone back to Lancashire to wait for better times. Well, but they of the present day boasted that they were far wiser than those that had gone before them; and, yet, what, let him ask, would posterity say of them when they looked at what was the state of the case at the beginning of 1849? A large quantity of land was lying desolate; there were laud-lords willing to improve their estates, and labourers willing to work; and yet the landlords were being ruined because they were obliged to support those willing labourers in idleness within the walls of the workhouse—both parties anxious, indeed, the one to provide, and the other to obtain, work; and yet the law stepped in to prevent them. The book which he held in his band spoke of maintaining the people till harvest time; but that was a mere mockery, for harvest in Con-naught was forbidden by Act of Parliament. There would be no harvest; and let him tell them that all their proceedings would recoil on their own heads unless they provided some remedy for such a state of things, and they would be compelled to vote this money for what they knew to be hopeless or useless, or they would be held up to public scorn and odium. All this land was lying desolate, and scarcely a sower was going forth to sow, because he knew that no sooner should his seed have come to maturity than his crops would be seized upon to support paupers in idleness. The average size of parishes in England was about 2,500 acres; but 17,000 acres formed the average of these electoral divisions in Ireland; and how was it possible for any man to advance money for the stocking or the sowing of such lands, when not only was there a huge mass of poverty to be supported, but a large arrear of debts to be paid? If these things were true, and if no remedy for them could be suggested by the hon. Gentlemen opposite, then he would ask them to take that diminution of the area of taxation he had ventured to offer; and the strong feeling expressed by the English taxpayers on this grant of 50,000l., far from being unwelcome intelligence to the Irish proprietor, would be the best news that had crossed the Channel for many a long day, because he would see in the expression of that feeling the urgent necessity that existed for his case being taken up by England, and that the feeling in his favour, and the conviction that his interest was their interest, was strong in this country, and was greatly on the increase in that House. It was not his (Mr. Stafford's) wish that those who might vote for the Amendment he now brought forward, should be considered as pledged to agree with him as to any detail connected with the question of the poor-law in Ireland; but he had felt it to be absolutely necessary to point out these results of the system they were pursuing, and the state of affairs with regard to these unions. He thought it right, also, now to mention that they ought, in these papers which the Government had laid before them, to have been furnished with the details of the thirty-one unions referred to, instead of those of twenty-one only. It might be—and, doubtless, it was so—in the present state of Ireland, in the present tone of public opinion in that country, and which they had unfortunately assisted to promote by previous grants of money to it—it might be very difficult for any Irish Member to vote against the grant now proposed. But lot the Government mark how many Irish Members had come forward and said, that this grant from the public exchequer would not do the least good. Let them say whether one of those Members, on either side of the House, would get up and tell them that this grant would do anything more than merely alleviate momentary distress—let them say whether they were not still persevering in a course which found no sympathy even from those for whose benefit it was professedly adopted. The hon. Member then proceeded to observe, with reference to the course the Government proposed on the subject of the Irish Poor Law, that, independently of the Boundary Commissioners, there was no subject in regard to which they (the Government) ought to be, and were, in possession of such full information, as they were in respect of that very law. They must have come to some conclusion on that question, or to none; and if in November last they had not arrived at any conclusion as to the best course to be adopted, and could not decide for themselves, why did they not call Parliament together to help them? But if, on the contrary, they had made up their minds in the autumn, he wished to know why this winter came upon them only to change or to confuse their views? He (Mr. Stafford) thought that that House did not deserve by its conduct in regard to Irish affairs in the last Session of Parliament, that the Government should expect opposition upon subjects connected with Ireland. But it was now fit that there should be opposition, and that those who had the welfare of Ireland at heart should begin to speak out respecting the course which had been pursued towards that country by Her Majesty's Government. When the Government were asked, as they recently had been, whether they had any plan ready to submit to Parliament on the subject of Ireland, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland (Sir W. Somerville) avoided the question; and, afterwards, when pressed upon the subject of the poor-law, the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary (Sir G. Grey) said it was their intention to preserve the main principle of that law. But as regarded a great portion of Ireland, the time for deliberation was passed, and the time for action was come. Let him tell them that legislation could not wait, because the seasons would not wait, for certain details from a Committee on the question of the poor-law. How could this Committee deliberate when they knew, as they well did know, that every hour they postponed their report, rendered loss and less the chances of the harvest of 1849? The Government had not scrupled to say, "Unless you consent to vote this money, the people must starve." Place that responsibility on those upon whom it ought to rest—inasmuch as there had been nothing to have prevented them—with the moans of information at their disposal, and with the amount of executive ability at their command—nothing to have prevented them from adopting some course or other; neither was there any thing now to prevent them from entering upon instant legislation upon this most important subject. On them, therefore—on the Government—let the grave responsibility rest of having put the House in this serious dilemma. Look, too, at these returns themselves; how inaccurate they were, and how little to be depended upon, when he found that in one union alone—in the union of Ballina—there was absolutely a mistake in the number of paupers of no loss than 10,000. The very papers he hold in his hand, which the noble Lord had just submitted, in the eagerness of hot haste, to the House, had another mis-statement in regard to the union of Ballina, of 100 holdings; and in this way, and upon returns which could not be depended upon, passed hastily through the press, without time to read them, far less to examine them, the House was called to legislate. But this was not all, for Her Majesty's Ministers came for-ward and said that they had no measure of their own, and that they could put no limit to the sums they intended to ask for; compelling the House, while obtaining from other and more accurate returns the information necessary to make an estimate, to labour under the imputation of cruelty, and a willingness to doom to death their fellow subjects, or else to take the word of the Government, that 414,000 paupers required the means of subsistence, and that 50,000l. was the sum requisite to support them. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) had stated that this was to be his last grant, while it was admitted at the same time that that sum would only be six weeks' maintenance to those paupers. He would therefore ask those who talked of giving grants now, or permitting the people to starve, where they were prepared to stop? Here was a new Session of Parliament, and the commencement of a new financial year, and he trust-ed they would not forget the past. They had Ireland relieved of 11,000,000l. of taxes, and receiving 10,000,000l. in grants—and with what result? The present of Connaught was the future of Munster. Had Her Majesty's Ministers made out any thing like a case for the course which they were now pursuing? He would not have said one word in reference to any alienation that might exist on the part of England towards Ireland—for he did not believe that any such alienation existed—had he not heard with regret, allusions to it in the course of the debate. He believed that whatever opinions might be entertained with regard to grants of public money, the liveliest gratitude was entertained by the Irish for the noble exertions made by private individuals on their behalf. The way to win over the affections of the Irish people was not to pander to their faults. They were divided into two classes—those who were anxious to discharge their duty, and those who were determined not to discharge it. In this hour of Ireland's trial she could not be righted without the infliction of an amount of individual privation and sorrow, which he was sure every Member of the House would regret. A recent frightful accident which occurred onboard a steamer belonging to Ireland, formed an apt illustration of the position of that country. The captain of the steamer being fearful that some of his passengers would be washed overboard in a storm, forced them into the hold for protection, and thought to preserve the whole; but the very means taken to save them destroyed them. So would it be with Ireland, if, by their legislation, they bound up the improving with the negligent. They could not save the negligent, but they might and certainly would overwhelm the industrious. He felt this so strongly that it was impossible for him to address the House without alluding to it. With regard to the question of grants he knew very well, from his experience during the time he lived in Ireland, what false hopes and evil propensities the least notion of a grant from England originated. And when he looked at all the money spent in public works, and found that no individual was the richer or the better for it—he knew not where it was gone, but it certainly had left no trace of fertility behind it—he did not for a moment doubt but that this 50,000l. would go after the 10,000,000l., or that 50,000,000l. would go with no better result, unless the system were changed. That change ought to be brought forward now; and he could find no language strong enough to express his condemnation of Her Majesty's Government, for trying to throw the responsibility upon a Committee, while the period was fast speeding away in which that change could be of the least avail. They who intended to vote for the addition to the resolution which he should have the honour to submit to the House, felt that it was unfair and unjust to place them in the position they would occupy. They were placed in a position which would make it appear as though they had no feeling for the distresses and miseries of Ireland—as if they would willingly permit thousands of their fellow-subjects to starve—because they raised their voices in behalf of the hardly and heavily taxed people of England. The Government said there was nothing for it but to pay the money without inquiry, and that the future policy of the House must be decided by the Committee; but that was a state of things which would never be suffered to pass unchallenged; and upon the Government which had charge of this great empire the responsibility must rest—they could not remove from it, they must abide by it—of having placed the Opposition in the position of appearing to close their ears and shut their eyes against compassion, or else to agree to a vote which would fill England with discontent, and hand over Ireland to the lassitude of universal ruin. He concluded by moving, as an addition to the original Motion— That, in the opinion of this Committee, the application to Parliament for any sum of money for the relief of such distress, ought to have been accompanied with an estimate of the probable amount which will be required for this purpose; that the continual application of sums of money, raised by the general taxation of the Country, to the relief of such distress, is vicious in principle, unjust in practice, and impolitic with respect to the suffering districts themselves, as tending to destroy all spirit of self-reliance; that it is the duty of Her Majesty's Government to introduce, without delay, measures which may obviate the future necessity of applying to Parliament for the relief of local distress in Ireland.


said: Sir, I certainly am relieved by the statement made by the Hon. Member (Mr. Stafford) who has just sat down, that it is not his intention to oppose the grant of 50,000l. for the immediate relief of the distress existing in some parts of Ireland. I own I should have considered the visiting on the distressed unions in that country, and on their inhabitants, who are without the means of support, that censure which the hon. Member feels ought to be passed upon the Government, would, in the first place, be unjust, and in the second would be visiting on the unoffending, a starving and a miserable people, faults Which, if they deserve censure, ought to be censured as the faults of those who occupy the position of the Government of this country. I am glad to find that the hon. Member, instead of opposing the grant, has thought proper to move a series of resolutions reflecting on the conduct of the Government. But, Sir, I cannot but think the hon. Gentleman has taken a course which cannot be defended or justified by anything which has occurred during the course of the present discussions. The hon. Gentleman says in his first resolution— That, in the opinion of this Committee, the application to Parliament for a grant of money for the relief of this distress, ought to have been accompanied with an estimate of the probable amount required for that purpose. Now I say, in the first place, that this is what has never been done by any previous Government under similar circumstances to the present. I alluded the other evening to two cases which served as precedents to the present vote—I mean the grants of 1822 and 1846. In the first instance, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn), who I see has just taken his place, was then Secretary for Ireland, and he brought forward in the month of April, 1822, a proposal for granting 50,000l. in order to employ and feed the poor of Ireland. At a subsequent part of the Session, some few months afterwards, another proposal of 100,000l. for the same purpose was agreed to. In 1846 one of the first votes of the Session was that of 50,000l. for Public Works. Then came the Ports and Harbours Bill—a further grant of 50,000l.; and then the Drainage Bill, amounting altogether to 228,000l. in loans, and 220,000l in grants. Such have been the modes taken by Government in cases somewhat similar to the present. They have come forward at the commencement of the Session, and have asked for some vote or proposed some measure which they thought necessary for the immediate relief of the distress, and proceeding according to the necessity of the times as the Session advanced. But it appears to me, Sir, that that is the obvious and necessary course. I think, if the Government were to come forward and to say, as the hon. Gentleman does, "Let us vote at once four or five hundred thousand pounds for the relief of the distressed unions in Ireland," that you might be quite sure that that four or five hundred thousand pounds would be spent; but you would have no security at all that you would not be asked for further sums. But, Sir, it is impossible to say with regard to particular districts of the country how much may be required until you have the case before you, and know the urgency of the moment. Now with respect to the union of Ballina: the guardians who are there state that it might be possible to collect a further rate, but they think that the collection of that further rate immediately would destroy the means of the farmers still remaining, and the prospects to be anticipated from the harvest. They therefore advise, with a view to allow the industry of the country to have some chance of maintaining the people of the country, that advances should be made in the interim, and no new rate be struck till May; and, according to their opinion, by that period there will be the means of collecting a rate sufficient for the destitute poor of that union. Now, would it be wise in us to say that in May we suppose there will be no such means, and, therefore, to vote the necessary relief for the whole year without knowing what the case may be? I apprehend not; and I conceive, therefore, both according to precedent and to obvious and practical reason as concerns this matter, that we have taken the course which we were justified in taking, and that we should have been liable to censure, if, instead of that course, we had adopted the one which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Staffford) recommends. And yet a vote of censure for that conduct of ours forms the first part of the hon. Gentleman's resolution. The next part of his resolution is— That the continual application of sums of money raised by the general taxation of the Country to the relief of such distress, is vicious in principle, unjust in practice, and impolitic with respect to the suffering districts themselves, as tending to destroy all spirit of self-reliance. Why, I think. Sir, that this is nothing more than a truism. I entirely agree with the spirit of that resolution. Nothing can be worse than the continual grants of money for this purpose. It tends to destroy self-reliance, tends to make the people improvident, and is no doubt vicious in principle. I confess I think that there are many cases of the kind in which grants or measures are vicious in principle, but in which the extraordinary circumstances of the case justify the Government and justify this House in acceding to them. When a House is on fire, measures which would be very wrong, such as defacing a part of the building and destroying the furniture, if done wantonly and when there is no occasion for them, would be quite justifiable under the extraordinary circumstances of the case—and so here. But, Sir, the hon. Gentleman goes on to say, that "it is the duty of Her Majesty's Government to introduce, without delay, measures which may obviate the future necessity of applying to Parliament for the relief of local distress in Ireland." Now, Sir, upon this subject I am obliged both to refer to what has been done, and to what it is proposed to do. With regard to what has been done, let us not omit that which is the extraordinary feature of this case—that which makes it, as far as the present crisis has gone, extraordinary in the history of the world, but yet which has been entirely overlooked in the speech of the hon. Gentleman. He has spoken of the distress of Ireland as the ordinary and usual distress of that country. Now the fact, as I apprehend it, is, that there has been, by the fault of whom you please—I say not now by the fault of the laws or of the people—but there has been an immense population growing up in certain parts of Ireland, and more especially in districts near the sea coast, where sea-weed could be plentifully collected for manure—a population, fed, not by the wages of labour, not employed by the farmers; but fed by means of small patches of ground, on which potatoes were grown sufficient for the immediate wants of themselves and their families. There has happened during the last few years a succession of calamities, sweeping away that food on which the people depended, not affording them, but rather depriving them of, those means of support and employment which must have been extended to a very great degree in order to relieve such want and famine as those calamities occasioned. There have been then. Sir, multitudes of people who have been altogether without employment and without food. Now, we can imagine, in a less civilised state of the world, that if any such failure of food had taken place, a million, or two or three millions, of persons would have been swept away; and afterwards that another population would have taken their place, and a new cultivation would have succeeded to that which had gone before. But this allowing of the operation of famine to take its course in a country with which we are so nearly connected, and without holding out a hand to check its ravages, would have been a course inconsistent with the humanity of this House, inconsistent with the feelings of this country, and, I will add, shocking and revolting to the minds of every civilised nation in the world. Well then. Sir, in 1847 we made extraordinary efforts in order to keep those people alive. In that year the people of this country raised subscriptions to an immense amount for that purpose. That subscription lasted through 1848, and numbers of persons—200,000, as it is stated by the Poor Law Commissioners—were supplied with food. By means of the British Association last year, many more persons, perhaps more than a million, were kept alive. The hon. Gentleman says, "But by those means you made things worse; they still remain without the means of employment." Sir, I totally deny that consequence. I think that the efforts you made in 1847, and that the efforts that were made by the British Association in 1848, have enabled many of those persons to emigrate to other countries; and, having surmounted the immediate season of despair, to find in other lands a reward for their toil, and to look forward for the future to the enjoyment of comforts more extended than they could ever have possessed in their original position. I do not now. Sir, enter into the question whether the money has been rightly spent, into whether it has been expended in an unprofitable or imprudent manner, instead of in the surest possible manner. All that I consider but a small part of the question. The real question was, whether or no it was advisable to keep as many people alive as possible. That object I think we did accomplish; and that having been accomplished, I think we as a nation have reason to be proud. Well, then. Sir, I admit that after these exertions, if you should find that you have still the same thing to repeat, that you have nothing to do but to spend millions every year in order to keep the destitute poor, who are called "idle," but who may more properly be called "unemployed;" I do admit that that would be a most unsatisfactory result and a most dreary prospect; but, in the first place, let it be recollected that when this House consented to the grant of immense sums of money, they laid down as a rule to be conceded to your legislation that in future the property of Ireland should be made responsible for the poverty of Ireland. Now, let us consider how much was implied in that. They had heard much of absenteeism—much of the conduct of landlords. There are, as the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stafford) said just now, both good and bad landlords. I believe that there are many good landlords in Ireland whose conduct is deserving every approbation, and whose exertions during these past years entitle them to the gratitude of their country. But, with regard to the bad landlord—previous to the introduction of the poor-law, he did nothing but receive the rent of his estates—not a single farm-house, not a farm-building, was erected by his means—no drainage was carried on by his capital—the beggar and destitute poor received no help from his charity. Such was the conduct of the bad landlord. But he cannot be so indifferent now. Whether he choose to live in Ireland or not, whether he choose to perform his duties or not, a rate is levied for the support of the destitute poor on his property, and of the produce of Ireland a share is allotted to those poor people whom his conduct has contributed to fix on his estate, but of whom, before that time, he might have been regardless. Well, then, we have passed for Ireland a large and extended poor-law. What has that poor-law done in the past year towards the object of maintaining the poor? Why, during the past year, no less than 1,700,000l. has been collected in Ireland for the purpose of maintaining the infirm and ablebodicd poor; and I am happy to say that, according to calculations which I have seen, the number of ablebodied poor support-ed by the poor-rate is by no means so great as that which any one would have anticipated from the former accounts of the Poor Law Commission of Inquiry, and from statistical documents of authenticity. I am told that of that l,700,000l. not above 300,000l. can be considered as having been contributed to the outdoor relief of the ablebodied poor. Such is the calculation made by one of the Commissioners of the Poor Law. Then you have advanced this step, that with regard to the support of the poor in Ireland, a very great proportion at least of the means is now obtained from the rates collected in Ireland, and out of the property in Ireland. Take the advances made last year by the British Association and by the Government, and you will find that so far from being the greater part given for the support of destitution, they do not amount to one-fifth or one-sixth of the whole amount given for that purpose, so that the remaining four-fifths or five-sixths were contributed by the property of Ireland. If that is the result, Sir, we at least see with respect to the relief of the poor that Ireland has greatly contributed, and I think that that is a reason why this House should be more ready than it otherwise would have been—more ready than it should have been in 1822 and 1846, although at that time you proved yourselves most ready to come to the assistance of the destitute poor in Ireland—to come forward to relieve the existing distress. But not only is that the case. There is another pleasing circumstance to be considered. The number of unions to which large contributions were made by the British Association and the Government, is very few. Out of 130 unions in Ireland, not above 21 received that support. Here again you see that you are bringing the matter more within compass, and that so far from the evil becoming worse, you are confining it within a narrow district, and that district one almost entirely marked by the features which I have mentioned, namely, that the people live not by wages, not by employment, but upon potatoes raised from the sea-weed, to which I have before referred, as manure. Then, Sir, is there no hope that there may be some remedy? The hon. Member (Mr. Stafford) told us that there was no hope of any improvement or of any remedy with regard to the distressed unions. I hold in my hand a report of the poor Law Commissioners, representing the very distressed state of many unions, dated the 11th December, 1848. In that report it is said— In several unions the outdoor relief is far less in extent than it was at the corresponding period last year. For example, in the Kenturk union there were in the week ended 27th November, 1847, 18,460 persons relieved out of the work-house at a cost of 472l.; in the week ended 25th November, 1848, the number was 2,323 only, at a cost of 46l. In Killarney union, the number receiving outdoor relief in the week ended 27th November, 1847, was 8,49,5, at a cost of 289l.; in the week ended 25th November, 1848, the number was 2,129, at a cost of 661. These instances show the degree in which an improved management, assisted by additional workhouse accommodation, has served to keep in check the outdoor relief which suddenly arose in 1847–8 under the influence of the example of the Temporary Relief Act, and while the machinery of administration under the permanent poor-law was yet new and inexperienced. I say, therefore, that you do find that there is a prospect of improvement with regard to some of these unions. I come now to the consideration as to what Prospect can be held out to the people; and here I must notice a statement, repeated frequently by hon. Gentlemen, that my right hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) said, that the present must be the first of a series of grants. My right hon. Friend has no recollection of having made any such statement. That he said, and I said afterwards, that we would not pledge ourselves that this should be the only grant during the Session of Parliament is perfectly true; and I say again, I would not consent, if the 50,000l. was granted at once, without any remark or observation, to tie my hands, and not to ask for more from this House. I think that I should not be doing my duty in the condition in which I am placed if I consented so to be fettered in respect to the conduct of the Government; but, having said this, I do admit that there is one point of view in which this question has been placed in which I think the reason of those, not who have objected to the grant, but who have desired explanation and discussion upon this grant, is natural and reasonable—I mean when they say there are very considerable taxes imposed upon Great Britain, in which Ireland has no part—there are many parts of Ireland which seem not only to be not suffering this extreme distress, but seem as capable as any part of England, or of Scotland, of bearing their part of the burden, and therefore the subject ought to be considered by those who have to administer the affairs of the country. Sir, I stated the other night that I should think it my duty to propose to the Committee of the House of Commons this measure, which I thought necessary for the amendment of the poor-law, and to provide for the future amendment of the law in such a manner that I thought would be beneficial to Ireland, and least burdensome to this country. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stafford) finds fault with the Government because they proposed to appoint a Committee; he says that they should at once have come forward in the month of November with a measure upon the subject. Why, Sir, we thought last year that it was desirable upon this important subject to obtain the benefit of experience, and amongst that experience I find that one of the many charges with respect to the poor-law is, that it was proposed in this House by Gentlemen who had the conduct of affairs in this country, who had not sufficient local knowledge with respect to Ireland. If that is the case—if that is the accusation against us—if we had met Parliament, and said, "Here is our measure ready prepared; we have not consulted Irish Gentlemen on the subject, but it is ready prepared, and we do not mean to alter it from your representations "—it would have been said, why not consult those who have local experience on the subject? Let them know what your plans are, ask their advice, and see whether they would be practicable. Sir, I think one of the amendments to be proposed in the poor-law should contemplate an encouragement to those who would be prepared to lay out their capital and to improve and cultivate the land in those parts where, partly from the entire failure of the crops for the last three or four years, and partly from the burdens which have been imposed, there is now an unwillingness to enter on the occupation of those lauds. But, Sir, in so doing, I confess I should not be prepared to rush at once to that division of the country which the hon. Gentleman seems, in his frequent speeches, to contemplate; I own I cannot imagine that there should be a division with regard to each property in Ireland; that each of the small properties in Ireland should be formed into an electoral division, without leading to the consequence of a law of settlement, and thereby doing that which I think has been a great misfortune in England—which I should be sorry to see introduced into Ireland, namely, impeding the free circulation of labour, and depriving the labourer of his right. Besides which a law of settlement implies a law of removal. If you found a man in Bedfordshire whose parish was in Gloucestershire, you would remove him; but what would be the consequence if you found men rushing, as they all do in the early part of the spring, from Con-naught into other parts of Ireland, or into England, and Scotland, and you were to send them back to those districts in Con-naught which are most pauperised, and where they are at present utterly incapable of supporting themselves? There could not be a greater cruelty to the people of Ireland than to enforce the strict law of settlement against removal in that country. Therefore, in proposing any plan of amendment to the Committee, I shall endeavour, in the first place, to provide for the greater encouragement of capital and employment of industry; and, in the next place, I own I do consider it just that in some way or other Ireland should be made further to support the cases of exception in Ireland, and that those cases should not come exclusively as a charge on the public expenditure. Whether what I shall propose on this subject is practicable or not, is of course a question of immense importance; and upon the solution of that question would much depend what is the course we might hereafter think it necessary to take on this question. Now, Sir, the hon. Gentleman says upon this subject that it is the duty of Her Majesty's Government to introduce without delay a measure which may obviate the future necessity of applying to Parliament for the relief of local distress in Ireland. I do contemplate a measure which would have that tendency. I think there are other questions with respect to local taxation in Ireland, upon which measures are under consideration, which will be introduced, and upon which I think it will be necessary to legislate in the course of the present Session. I do myself consider that it may be possible to go through this great transition; one of the most extraordinary transitions that ever took place—a transition which is not the act of any Parliament or of any Government, but a transition which has been brought about by the calamity of the loss of the potato crop; a transition from a state of the population living upon their own plots of ground, to a state of the population consisting chiefly of farmers and labourers. I do look forward with hope that the transition may be brought about without any very great loss of life. No doubt a very considerable loss of property has already taken place; but considering the vastness of the changes, considering the sudden manner in which the change has come upon us, we have less of suffering, less of loss of life, than any one could have anticipated, if we had boon told two years before that the loss of the food of the country for so many years would have taken place. Now, Sir, I leave it to the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stafford) to pursue his own course; and if he thinks it necessary to push this Motion, as a declaration against the Government, to a division, I can only say that he has taken that course which is best adapted to the exigencies in which he stands; that I do not think it would have been advisable to have brought forward a Bill for the amendment of the poor-law without a grant; that I should not have been justified in coming to the House and asking the House for a temporary grant for the relief of distress. I feel confident—nothing will persuade me to the contrary—that this House will assent to the grant which we have proposed. I feel confident that they will not visit upon these wretched and destitute people in Connaught any faults that we have committed—any want of foresight in not proposing a measure in November—any want of the adaptation of the present measure to the end that we have in view. But, agreeing to the proposal, undoubtedly the House may think it proper to accompany the vote with the resolution which the hon. Gentleman has proposed. With respect to that, it is entirely in the hands of the House to decide as they shall think proper. I have given what I must say I think is a fair account of the position in which we stand. I have given some views to the House of the nature of the measures that we shall have to propose, My belief is that you cannot, by any one measure, remedy a state of society which has been, from the year 1760 at least, one of suffering, of crime, of division of landlord and tenant, of division of one class from another, of conspiracy frequently repeated; of laws of repression continually enacted in the hope of permanent tranquillity continually frustrated. If it be true, as I believe it is, that the hope has been frustrated because the state of society in Ireland brought on those contentions for land, brought on those assassinations of proprietors, brought on the perpetual war of one class against another; if that be true, then it is only by a total change in the state of society that these evils can be remedied; and if it is only by a total change in the state of society that these evils can be remedied, let me, with all deference to the hon. Gentleman, tell him, that if he were on those benches to-morrow to propose a measure for the purpose, that a great social change cannot be effected in one, two, or three years; that it must be the work of time; but that I do believe, with time, with patience, with a judicious adaptation of the remedies, we may arrive at that result which we all desire, that of seeing the state of Ireland improved, and at length happy.


said: I entirely concur with the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) in thinking that it would be a most unfair and ungenerous proceeding on our part to attempt to saddle on the poor of Ireland the consequences which I believe to have been occasioned by the negligence and indiscretion of Government. But while we are prepared to vote this sum for the relief of distress in Ireland, we do think we have a clear right to require that we should be furnished with some definitive estimate of the total sum which Her Majesty's Ministers propose should be expended in this manner. What we contend for is, that the continual application of sums of money raised by the general taxation of the country to the purpose of relieving local distress in Ireland, is injudicious even so far as the suffering districts are concerned, as being calculated to destroy the spirit of self-reliance, at the same time that it fails to furnish a permanent remedy for the distress of the people. That the people in certain districts of the west of Ireland are enduring dreadful hard-, ship, and are exposed to a degree of suffering which it is appalling to contemplate, is impossible to doubt after perusing the papers which have been recently put into our hands. The dreadful picture presented in those pages, shows us landlords and tenants ruined—peasants without food, clothing, or employment—workhouses overflowing—deaths daily increasing—guardians without money or credit—contractors unwilling to forward the necessary supplies. Such is the terrible state of things we are called to contemplate. But that is not all. I fear that there is but slender hope that the condition of these poor creatures will be materially ameliorated. The noble Lord at the head of the Government has assured us of great progress towards the amelioration of the condition of the people; but I do not think that this is an opinion in which the Poor Law Commissioners, or gentlemen resident in Ireland, and practically acquainted with that country, will be likely to concur. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) has made a mistake in taking the whole of Ireland together, and in not separating the north from the west and south; and I maintain, that unless you view each province by itself, it will be impossible for you to arrive at a correct conclusion as to the real condition of the whole. He (the Marquess of Granby) found that in twenty-one unions the amount of rates collected was I,985,660l., in addition to which there had been a vast deal paid through the Government and the British Association, not less than 2,360,000l. Ho, therefore, did not feel there was that cause for future hope in those parts of Ireland he had referred to, which the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) appeared to think. Sir, I do not intend, at this late hour of the night, to trouble the House with any long-extracts from the papers which have been laid before us; but I will, if the House will allow me, read one extract, because I conceive it of great importance that the picture it conveys should be placed before the House. It is an extract of a letter of the vice-guardians of the union of Bantry. These vice-guardians say— As to the degree in which destitution prevails, and the prospects of its cessation or diminution—destitute is a term usually and fitly applied to the lowest and most dependent grade in civilised society. It is, however, a term that conveys no idea of the privations and sufferings of a largo proportion of the people in this wretched union, without clothing, without food, without employment, and with no hope whatever, save from the relieving officer, or from the chilly protection of the workhouse. We have given much and most earnest attention to their whole condition, and we have also had pretty extensive communications with well-informed parties from each of the electoral divisions, and we have found an entire unanimity of opinion as to the pitiable state of the whole of the labouring poor. We are, therefore, grieved to state that we cannot see any prospect whatever of a cessation or diminution of their present misery; on the contrary, we are compelled to express our fears that their wants and their sufferings will considerably increase. I am sure, Sir, we must all feel that this statement truly pictures what is the present condition of a large portion of the people of Ireland; and such, I fear, for some time to come, will be the picture we must look forward to. Sir, under present circumstances lands are thrown out of cultivation, the people are thrown out of employment, and no tenant with capital will take the land. Why, Sir, is this? What cloud hangs over this unfortunate district of Ireland? What blighting influence is it which prevents the employment of capital? What is it that drives capital away from the country? Why, Sir, it is the effect of the poor-law. The capitalist feels that he has no protection, and should be cultivate the land, it may be taken from him for arrears of poor-rates. How can we expect that any man will employ his capital in the cultivation of the land, when he feels that it may be taken from him to pay for an arrear of rate? Again, how can we expect any one to cultivate the land, when he knows, whatever exertions he may make—whatever employment he may give to the poor—he will have to pay for the support of the poor of his idle neighbour? Sir, it is impossible under such a state of circumstances to expect that there will be an amelioration in the state of Ireland. Sir, the noble Lord admits that the law has been vicious in its operation; but he states that extreme cases require extreme remedies. He says, if a house is on fire we must not he particular in the moans which we take to put it out. Now, Sir, what we wish, for we do not object to the advance of the 50,000l., but we wish to give it combined with such conditions that we shall not he asked for a renewal of the grant. What we wish is not only to put out the fire, but to take precautions that the fire shall not occur again. Then, Sir, the noble Lord refers to 1847, when the people of this country came nobly forward to relieve the distress in Ireland, to show the feeling existing with respect to that country. Sir, it would be unfortunate indeed if the charity of the people of this country was to be used as an argument for making perpetual demands on their resources. Sir, with respect to the area of taxation, the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) says it would be most unfortunate if, by any alteration of those areas, the labourer was deprived of the result of his labour; but. Sir, the question is not whether the labourer shall be deprived of the result of his labour, but whether he shall be employed at all. Sir, what we are anxious to know is this, how long this state of things is to last—how long the Irish population are to be taught to look to the liberality of England—how long the Ministry are to trust to the forbearance of the Opposition? Have you no remedial measures to bring forward—have you no plan for the improvement of Ireland? It is true that you have appointed a Committee to inquire into the Poor Law. Why, Sir, as my hon. Friend (Mr. Stafford) has stated, the result of the operation of that law is already known. This is not a time for inquiry, but for measures of vigour; and I cannot but think that such measures would do more to restore the prosperity of that country than Committees of Inquiry. Sir, Her Majesty's Government were not always so ready to refer matters of importance to Committees of this House, when laws which affected the industry of this country were to be discussed—when a code of two centuries was proposed to be swept away. Her Majesty's Government would not wait for the report of a Committee of Inquiry. But now that they require a law for the protection of the people and property of Ireland, Her Majesty's Government shrink from the responsibility of proposing it. Sir, this grant of 50,000l. to Ireland is a tax on the people of this country, while I do not think, under present circumstances, it will be materially beneficial to the people of Ireland. Sir, I will not trouble the House at any greater length at this late hour, but for the grounds I have stated I must give my support to the Amendment of my hon. Friend (Mr. Stafford).


said, he would not vote for the grant on any conditions whatever. He had listened with the greatest attention to what had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), and if he understood him right he meant to vote for the grant, with some conditions attached to it. Now this he (Colonel Sibthorp) would not do. He would yield to no man in the House, he might safely say, in humanity and consideration for his fellow-creatures; but he told the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) before, and he told him again, that he had no confidence in any of his propositions. The noble Lord would hold out to them no promise that this vote was to be the first and last. The noble Lord had told them, if he understood him rightly, that he was not capable of bringing forward comprehensive measures for the amelioration of Ireland. He would, therefore, only infer that the noble Lord meant to steal this vote from the House merely to pacify those without whose votes and assistance he could not sit whore he now did. Then there was another ground on which he opposed this grant—the distressed state of this country. There was such a thing as drawing too much from the well, and finding it dry at last. The noble Lord appeared to have no consideration for those whom he and the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) had brought into distress—the farmers of the country. He repeated that he would not trust the noble Lord a single title; and, looking to the condition of the country at large, looking to the condition of the farmers, and indeed of all classes, he would vote against this dirty, Jesuitical, low, and pitiful grant.


rose merely to state what course those who meant to object both to the Motion and the Amendment meant to take. He could not agree to the additions which were proposed by the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), because he thought them inconsistent in first agreeing to the grant, and then protesting against it. He disapproved of the grant; and he meant to divide first against the resolutions; and if they were rejected, then he would take the sense of the House against the grant.


said, notwithstanding the lateness of the hour, he could not allow the House to go to a vote without expressing his opinion upon the question before them. The other night he had voted against the Government, because he could not honestly or conscientiously support it, and on the present occasion he must do so again. He could not see how they could call upon the people of this country, taxed as they were, to contribute endless gratuities for the relief of Ireland; and they were particularly told that the application of that night would not be the last. The right hon. Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) had told them the other night that they could not allow the people to starve—that he would vote for the present grant, but that he would never vote for another. The time had been when he (Mr. Muntz) should have considered the right hon. Gentleman a great authority in such matters; but he must now allow him to remark, that some time ago he had informed the House that he had changed all his opinions of the previous thirty years, and therefore he (Mr. Muntz) doubted the soundness of his judgment, and could not see how the right hon. Gentleman would be able to refuse the next similar application which must be made. Now, he (Mr. Muntz) hoped, when he was giving his own money away, that he could be as charitable as any one; but he had to consider that he was the representative of others, and that he had to deal with their funds. He did not see any improvement that was likely to take place in the condition of Ireland; on the contrary, he believed that condition would get a great deal, and rapidly, worse. He believed, too, that a great deal of that distress was to be attributed to the general system of Government, that there should be cheap food and dear money. He asked whether there was any opportunity afforded for an advance in the value of produce; or a decrease in the value of money? They were told it was to come from California. He was prepared to admit that if the proceeds of California were in any proportion to the reports, all our difficulties might thereby be removed; but all depended upon the quantity of gold which would come, and the speed with which it came, for all Ireland might be dead before it did come. He was free to admit that if the gold of that country were already here, it might be beneficial; but it must be a work of time before any quantity could arrive, and they might all die first. What was the position this country was in, that she was supposed to be fit and ought to be called upon to pay such a demand upon her resources? Hon. Gentlemen had told him, and he had seen in the papers, that they were all well off in Birmingham, which was never more prosperous. Well, he always heard in London and in that House what he could not hear at home; but he went home on Saturday last, and instead of finding the prosperity spoken of, he was told by every one that trade was extremely flat and unprofitable, and that they could see no chance of there being any improvement so long as they were compelled to compote with foreign manufacturers. That very morning he met one of his own travellers who had just returned from the north of Europe, and he asked him what was the state of trade in Germany. He replied that there was plenty of trade in Germany, but that it was not with England, as the Germans could manufacture cheaper themselves; and notwithstanding the very low prices prevailing in this country, it was impossible to compete with them. A curious circumstance had lately occurred to him (Mr. Muntz), to which he wished to call the particular attention of the House. Three or four years ago, the glass manufacturers of Birmingham were anxious to have free trade. They came to him and said, that if the duty was taken off glass, they could do a good trade. He cautioned them on the subject, and told them that they employed Bohemians, Belgians, and Germans in their manufactories, at high wages, and that if the duty were removed, they would have a heavy competition to contend with. They said they were aware of that, but it was highly desirable for the interests of the trade that the duty should be taken off. Well, he accompanied a deputation of the trade to meet the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, and he was horror-struck to find that the first thing they asked for was protection for three years. He (Mr. Muntz) said to them, "Why, I thought you came here to ask for free trade;" to which they replied, "So we do; but we want protection for three years, just to prepare us for the change, after which it will be all right." His next question was, "Well, but tell me why you will be better prepared in three years to compete with foreign manufacturers than you now are?" to which they replied, "Oh, let us have free trade, and we can compete with all the world;" and he (Mr. Muntz) then told them that at the end of the three years they would ask for protection. Well, to show them what had been the result of that measure, he would take the liberty of reading to the House a letter upon the subject which he had received from Birmingham within the last few days. It was as follows:— Birmingham, February 5, 1849. Dear Sir—As the import duties on flint-glass will expire soon, the trade is, I fear, in danger of expiring also in this country, owing to those countries whoso manufactures are protected by an import duty being allowed, duty free, to send all their excess of production here, thus keeping up their prices at home, by not glutting their market: at the same time ruining ours. The manufacturers of this district are anxious to memorialise for a continuance of duty, being persuaded that they can prove that that alone will protect our trade, from the peculiar character of our manufacture. I have written to Mr. Sehole-field, Mr. Spooner, and Mr. Newdegate, to ask their opinion and co-operation; will you oblige me with your advice upon the subject?—Your's faithfully. He (Mr. Muntz) told them that they could do as they pleased, and, if they wished it, he would be happy to present their memorial. That was not a solitary case; but other trades were in the same condition. When they saw in the papers that trade was recovering, that trade was better, it was just like the case of a man with fever, who had been laid up with fever for twelve months, and was enabled to get up and sit in his arm-chair for half an hour. He might say that he was a little better; but so far from its being a sign of solid improvement, there might be reason to fear immediate dissolution. The fact was, that not only the glass trade, but half the other trade of Birmingham had vanished and gone to the Continent, in consequence of the competition which existed. Now, they had been told that there was an improvement in the trade of Birmingham; and, what was most strange, in two of the trades which had most suffered, and were still very bad, two of the trades which he particularly saw noticed in the public press as having improved, was the gilt-toy trade and the brassfounders. Now, he had formerly exported per annum thousands of pounds' worth in those trades, but he did not now expend as many shillings in them. There were formerly sixty or seventy gilt-toy makers in Birmingham, but there were now only four or five, and they had nothing to do. There were certainly more brass-founders remaining, but they were very slack, and badly paid, in consequence of foreign competition. Were the people of this country in a position, then, to be called upon for this grant? The distresses of the Irish were now attributed to the potato rot; but did they never hear of distress in Ireland before? Did they recollect the year 1822? Was there no distress at that time? Was there not a king's begging letter, and also immense private subscriptions, and Government grants, to relieve the most wretched misery? If they went back to the year 1842, when the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was in office, they would find there was distress at that time; but they did not hear of any potato rot. He believed that the rot under which Ireland suffered was not the potato rot, but a rot of another kind. He opposed the grant because the Government did not say that, if they made it, they could show that they could make Ireland prosperous. What would 50,000l. be to relieve the distress existing in Ireland? Why, it would be like a mere drop in the ocean, and the money would be thrown away. Out of doors there was a great feeling against granting the money, not from a feeling of parsimony, but because the people conscientiously felt that they would soon be seeking for something to be given to themselves. The people felt that they could not afford to pay the taxes, and they looked for relief in the reduction of taxation. He liked economy as much as any one, and it ought to be carried out as far as possible, consistently with the honour, power, and interest of the nation. He liked to see any such reduction, but it was useless to look for much relief from that source, because there was very little margin to act upon when they had made provision for the interest of the debt, and the necessary expenses of the State. The plan implied that the only way in which any material saving could be made in the expenditure of the country was by the abandonment of their colonies. He did not believe, if they looked at such a proposition in a £ s. d. point of view, that that would be any great loss to the country, as under our present system the colonies are free to trade everywhere; therefore, whilst we secure no exclusive advantage with our colonies, we pay all the expenses necessary for their security. He admitted that they might reduce their expenditure by abandoning their colonies; but there was a moral point of view upon which the question ought to be considered, and that was—are we justified, after encouraging men to emigrate and colonise, in leaving them to the mercy of the world, without that support which they bad justly calculated upon? He again repeated that he could not conscientiously vote for the grant, and he must, therefore, vote both against the Government, and against the Amendment.

The Committee divided on Mr. Stafford's Amendment:—Ayes 125; Noes 245: Majority 120.

List of the AYES.
Anstey, T. C. Bourke, R. S.
Archdall, Capt. M. Bramston, T. W.
Arkwright, G. Brand, T.
Bankes, G. Bremridge, R.
Bennet, P. Brisco, M.
Blackstone, W. S. Brooke, Lord
Blair, S. Brown, H.
Blakemore, R. Burghley, Lord
Boldero, H. G. Burroughes, H. N.
Cabbell, B. B. Moody, C. A.
Cholmeley, Sir M. Muntz, G. F.
Christopher, R. A. Napier, J.
Cobbold, J. C. Neeld, J.
Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B. Neeld, J.
Cocks, T. S. Newport, Visct.
Cole, hon. H. A. Nowry and Morne, Visct.
Coles, H. B.
Cotton, hon. W. H. S. Nugent, Lord
Cowan, C. Osborne, R.
Disraeli, B. Ossulston, Lord
Dod, J. W. Palmer, B.
Dodd, G. Palmer, R.
Duff, G. S. Perfect, B.
Duncuft, J. Plowden, W. H. C.
Dundas, G. Prime, B.
Du Pre, C. G. Renton, J. C.
East, Sir J. B. Repton, G. W. J.
Estcourt, J. B. B. Richards, R.
Farnham, E. B. Rufford, F.
Farrer, J. Sandars, G.
Floyer, J. Scott, hon. F.
Fox, S. W. L. Seymer, H. K.
Fuller, A. E. Shafto, R. D.
Godson, R. Shirley, E. J.
Gooch, E. S. Smyth, J. G.
Gordon, Adm. Smythe, hon. G.
Goring, C. Somerset, Capt.
Granby, Marq. of Somerton, Visct.
Grogan, E. Sotheron, T. H. S.
Gwyn, H. Spooner, R.
Hale, R. B. Stafford, A.
Halsey, T. P. Stanley, E.
Henley, J. W. Stuart, H.
Herries, rt hon. J. C. Stuart, J.
Hervey, Lord A. Sutton, J. H. M.
Hildyard, R. C. Taylor, T. E.
Hodgson, W. N. Thompson, Col.
Hood, Sir A. Thompson, Ald.
Hornby, J. Thompson, G.
Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H. Thornhill, G.
Ker, R. Trevor, hon. G. R.
Knightley, Sir C. Trollope, Sir J.
Knox, Col. Turner, G. J.
Law, hon. C. E. Tyrell, Sir J. T.
Lennox, Lord H. G. Verner, Sir W.
Leslie, C. P. Vyse, R. H. R. H.
Lowther, H. Waddington, D.
Lushington, C. Waddington, H. S.
Mackenzie, W. F. Walpole, S. H.
Mandeville, Visct. Willoughby, Sir H.
Manners, Lord C. S. Wodehouse, E.
Manners, Lord G.
Meux, Sir H. TELLERS.
Miles, W. Beresford, W.
Moffatt, G. Newdegate, C. N.
List of the NOES.
Abdy, T. N. Baring, rt. hn. Sir F. T.
Acland, Sir T. D. Baring, T.
Adair, R. A. S. Barrington, Visct.
Alcock, T. Barron, Sir H. W.
Anson, hon. Col. Bass, T.
Anson, Visct. Bellew, R. M.
Armstrong, Sir A. Berkeley, hon. Capt.
Armstrong, R. B. Berkeley, C. L. G.
Arundel and Surrey, Earl of Bernard, Visct.
Birch, Sir T. B.
Ashley, Lord Blackall, S. W.
Bagshaw, J. Blandford, Marq. of
Baines, M. T. Blewitt, R. J.
Baring, H. B. Bouverie, hon. E. P.
Boyle, hon. Col. Hastie, A.
Bright, J. Hawes, B.
Brockman, E. D. Hay, Lord J.
Brotherton, J. Hayter, W. G.
Brown, W. Headlam, T. E.
Bruce, Lord E. Heneage, E.
Bunbury, E. H. Henry, A.
Burke, Sir T. J. Herbert, H. A.
Butler, P. S. Heyworth, L.
Buxton, Sir E. N. Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.
Callaghan, D. Hobhouse, T. B.
Campbell, hon. W. F. Hodges, T. L.
Cardwell, E. Hodges, T. T.
Carter, J. B. Hogg, Sir J. W.
Caulfield, J. M. Hollond, R.
Cavendish, hon. C. C. Horsman, E.
Cavendish, W. G. Howard, Lord E.
Cayley, E. S. Howard, hon. C. W. G.
Clay, Sir W. Howard, hon. E. G. G.
Clements, hon. C. S. Howard, Sir R.
Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G. Hume, J.
Cobden, R. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Cockburn, A. J. E. Jackson, W.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Jervis, Sir J.
Corbally, M. E. Keppel, hon. G. T.
Cowper, hon. W. F. Kershaw, J.
Craig, W. G. King, hon. P. J. L.
Crawford, W. S. Labouchere, rt. hon. H.
Crowder, R. B. Langston, J. H.
Dalrymple, Capt. Lascelles, hon. W. S.
Dawson, hon. T. V. Lemon, Sir C.
Devereux, J. T. Lewis, G. C.
Duncan, Visct. Lincoln, Earl of
Duncan, G. Lindsay, hon. Col.
Dundas, Adm. Locke, J.
Dunne, F. P. Lockhart, A. E.
Ebrington, Visct. Lockhart, W.
Ellice, rt. hon. E. Macnaghten, Sir E.
Ellis, J. Macnamara, Maj.
Elliot, hon. J. E. M'Cullagh, W. T.
Euston, Earl of M'Gregor, J.
Evans, W. Mahon, The O'Gorman
Fagan, W. Mahon, Visct.
Fergus, J. Maitland, T.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Marshall, W.
Filmer, Sir E. Martin, C. W.
FitzPatrick, rt. hon. J. Masterman, J.
Fitzwilliam, hon. G. W. Matheson, A.
Foley, J. H. H. Matheson, Col.
Fordyce, A. D. Maule, rt. hon. F.
Forster, M. Melgund, Visct.
Fox, R. M. Milner, W. M. E.
Freestun, Col. Milton, Visct.
Gibson, rt. hon. T. M. Mitchell, T. A.
Gladstone, rt. hon. W. Monsell, W.
Glyn, G. C. Moore, G. H.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Morgan, H. K. G.
Grace, O. D. J. Morris, D.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.
Grattan, H. Mowatt, F.
Greene, J. Mulgrave, Earl of
Greene, T. Norreys, Lord
Grenfell, C. P. Nugent, Sir P.
Grenfell, C. W. O'Brien, J.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. O'Brien, Sir L.
Grey, R. W. O'Brien, T.
Grosvenor, Earl O'Connell, J.
Hallyburton, Lord J. F. O'Connor, F.
Hamilton, J. H. O'Flaherty, A.
Hamilton, Lord C. Ogle, S. C. H.
Harcourt, G. G. Owen, Sir J.
Hardcastle, J. A. Paget, Lord A.
Hastie, A. Paget, Lord C.
Palmerston, Visct. Smith, M. T.
Parker, J. Smith, J. B.
Patten, J. W. Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W.
Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. Spearman, H. J.
Peel, Col. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Pennant, hon. Col. Stanton, W. H.
Peto, S. M. Stuart, Lord D.
Pigott, F. Sullivan, M.
Pilkington, J. Talfourd, Serj.
Power, N. Tancred, H. W.
Pusey, P. Tenison, E. K.
Raphael, A. Thesiger, Sir F.
Rawdon, Col. Thicknesse, R. A.
Reynolds, J. Thornely, T.
Ricardo, J. L. Towneley, J.
Rice, K. R. Townley, R. G.
Rich, H. Townshend, Capt.
Roche, E. B. Vane, Lord H.
Romilly, Sir J. Villiers, hon. C.
Rumbold, C. E. Vivian, J. H.
Russell, Lord J. Wall, C. B.
Russell, hon. E. S. Walter, J.
Russell, F. C. H. Ward, H. G.
Sadleir, J. Watkins, Col. L.
St. George, C. Wawn, J. T.
Sandars, J. Wellesley, Lord C.
Scholefield, W. Westhead, J. P.
Scrope, G. P. Williams, J.
Scully, F. Williamson, Sir H.
Seaham, Visct. Wilson, J.
Seymour, Sir H. Wilson, M.
Seymour, Lord Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.
Sheil, rt. hon. R. L. Wood, W. P.
Shelburne, Earl of Young, Sir J.
Sidney, Ald.
Simeon, J. TELLERS.
Slaney, R. A. Tufnell, H.
Smith, rt. hon. R. V. Hill, Lord M.

said, that the Government were bound to come forward with some other measure to meet the distresses of Ireland, and to render the money given by this country really useful to her. As he did not think the grant good in principle, or likely to be of any service, he would take the sense of the House upon it.

Original question put. The Committee divided:—Ayes 220; Noes 143: Majority 77.

List of the AYES.
Abdy, T. N. Bellow, R. M.
Acland, Sir T. D. Berkeley, hon. Capt.
Adair, R. A. S. Bernard, Visct.
Anson, hon. Col. Birch, Sir T. B.
Anson, Visct. Blackall, S. W.
Archdall, Capt. M. Blandford, Marq. of
Armstrong, Sir A. Bourke, R. S.
Armstrong, R. B. Boyle, hon. Col.
Arundel and Surrey, Earl of Brockman, E. D.
Brothorton, J.
Ashley, Lord Bunbury, E. H.
Bagshaw, J. Burke, Sir T. J.
Baines, M. T. Butler, P. S.
Baring, H. B. Buxton, Sir E. N.
Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T. Callaghan, D.
Baring, T. Campbell, hon. W. F.
Barrington, Visct. Cardwell, E.
Barron, Sir H. W. Carter, J. B.
Bass, T. Caulfeild, J. M.
Cavendish, hon. C. O. Koppel, hon. G. T.
Cavendish, W. G. Labouchere, rt. hon. H.
Cayley, E. S. Lascelles, hon. W. S.
Cholmeley, Sir M. Lemon, Sir C.
Clay, Sir W. Lewis, G. C.
Clements, hon. C. S. Lincoln, Earl of
Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G. Lindsay, hon. Col.
Cockburn, A. J. E. Locke, J.
Coke, hon. E. K. Lockhart, A. E.
Cole, hon. H. A. M'Cullagh, W. T.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. M'Gregor, J.
Corbally, M. E. Macnaghten, Sir E.
Cowper, hon. W. F. Macnamara, Maj.
Craig, W. G. Mahon, The O'Gorman
Crowder, R. B. Mahon, Visct.
Dalrymple, Capt. Maitland, T.
Dawson, hon. T. V. Marshall, W.
Devereux, J. T. Martin, C. W.
Dod, J. W. Masterman, J.
Dundas, Adm. Matheson, A.
Dunne, F. P. Matheson, Col.
Ebrington, Visct. Maule, rt. hon. F.
Ellice, rt. hon. E. Melgund, Visct.
Ellis, J. Milner, W. M. E.
Elliot, hon. J. E. Milton, Visct.
Euston, Earl of Mitchell, T. A.
Evans, W. Moffatt, G.
Fagan, AY. Monsell, W.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Moore, G. H.
Filmer, Sir E. Morgan, H. K. G.
FitzPatrick, rt. hn. J. W. Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.
Fitzwilliam, hon. G. W. Mulgrave, Earl of
Foley, J. H. H. Napier, J.
Forster, M. Norreys, Lord
Fox, R. M. Nugent, Sir P.
Freestun, Col. O'Brien, J.
Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E. O'Brien, Sir L.
Glyn, G. C. O'Brien, T.
Gordon, Adm. O'Connell, J.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. O'Connor, F.
Grace, O. D. J. O'Flaherty, A.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. Ogle, S. C H.
Granby, Marq. of Ossulston, Lord
Greene, J. Owen, Sir J.
Greene, T. Paget, Lord A.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. Paget, Lord C.
Grey, R. W. Palmerston, Visct.
Grosvenor, Earl Parker, J.
Hamilton, J. H. Patten, J. W.
Hamilton, Lord C. Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.
Harcourt, G. G. Peel, Col.
Hawes, B. Peto, S. M.
Hay, Lord J. Power, N.
Hayter, W. G. Pusey, P.
Headlam, T. E. Raphael, A.
Henley, J. W. Rawdon, Col.
Herbert, H. A. Reynolds, J.
Herries, rt. hon. J. C. Rice, E. R.
Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J. Rich, H.
Hobhouse, T. B. Roche, E. B.
Hodges, T. L. Romilly, Sir J.
Hodges, T. T. Russell, Lord J.
Hogg, Sir J. W. Russell, hon. E. S.
Hollond, R. Russell, F. C. H.
Hood, Sir A. Sadleir, J.
Horsman, E. St. George, C.
Howard, Lord E. Sandars, G.
Howard, hon. C. W. G. Sandars, J.
Howard, hon. E. G. G. Scholefield, W.
Howard, Sir R. Scrope, G. P.
Inglis, Sir R. H. Scully, F.
Jackson, W. Seaham, Visct.
Jervis, Sir J. Seymour, Sir H.
Sheil, rt. hon. R. L. Trevor, hon. G. R.
Shelburne, Earl of Vane, Lord H.
Simeon, J. Villiers, hon. C.
Slaney, R. A. Vivian, J. H.
Smith, M. T. Wall, C. B.
Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W. Walter, J.
Spearman, H. J. Ward, H. G.
Stansfield, W. R. O. Watkins, Col. L.
Stanton, W. H. Wellesley, Lord C.
Stuart, Lord D. Westhead, J. P.
Sullivan, M. Williamson, Sir H.
Talfourd, Serj. Wilson, J.
Tancred, H. W. Wilson, M.
Taylor, T. E. Wodehouse, E.
Tenison, E. K. Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.
Thesiger, Sir F. Wyvill, M.
Thornely, T. Young, Sir J.
Towneley, J. TELLERS.
Townley, R. G. Hill, Lord M.
Townshend, Capt. Tufnell, H.
List of the NOES.
Adair, H. E. Gaskell, J. M.
Alcock, T. Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.
Arkwright, G. Godson, R.
Bankes, G. Gooch, E. S.
Bennet, P. Goring, C.
Beresford, W. Grenfell, C. P.
Berkeley, C. L. G. Grenfell, C. W.
Blackstone, W. S. Gwyn, H.
Blair, S. Hallyburton, Lord J. F.
Blakemore, R. Halsey, T. P.
Blewitt, R. J. Hardcastle, J. A.
Boldero, H. G. Hastie, A.
Bouverie, hon. E. P. Hastie, A.
Bramston, T. W. Heneage, E.
Brand, T. Henry, A.
Bremridge, R. Hervey, Lord A.
Bright, J. Hildyard, R. C.
Brisco, M. Hodgson, W. N.
Brooke, Lord Hornby, J.
Brown, H. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.
Brown, W. Ker, R.
Bruce, Lord E. Kershaw, J.
Burghley, Lord King, hon. P. J. L.
Burroughes, H. N. Knightley, Sir C.
Cabbell, B. B. Knox, Col.
Christopher, R. A. Langston, J. H.
Christy, S. Law, hon. C. E.
Cobbold, J. C. Leslie, C. P.
Cobden, R. Lockhart, W.
Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B. Lowther, H.
Cocks, T. S. Lushington, C.
Coles, H. B. Mackenzie, W. F.
Cowan, C. Mandeville, Visct.
Crawford, W. S. Manners, Lord C. S.
Disraeli, B. Meux, Sir H.
Dodd, G. Miles, W.
Duff, G. S. Moody, C. A.
Duncan, Visct. Morris, D.
Duncan, G. Mowatt, F.
Duncuft, J. Muntz, G. F.
Dundas, G. Neeld, J.
Du Pre, C. G. Neeld, J.
East, Sir J. B. Newdegate, C. N.
Estcourt, J. B. B. Newport, Visct.
Farnham, E. B. Newry and Morne, Visct.
Farrer, J. Nugent, Lord
Fergus, J. Osborne, R.
Floyer, J. Palmer, R.
Fordyce, A. D. Palmer, R.
Fox, S. W. L. Pilkington, J.
Fuller, A. E. Plowden, W. H. C.
Powlett, Lord W. Stuart, J.
Prime, R. Sutton, J. H. M.
Renton, J. C. Thicknesse, R. A.
Ricardo, J. L. Thompson, Col.
Ricardo, O. Thompson, Ald.
Richards, R. Thompson, G.
Rufford, F. Trollope, Sir J.
Scott, hon. F. Turner, G. J.
Seymour, Lord Tyrell, Sir J. T.
Shafto, R. D. Verner, Sir W.
Shirley, E. J. Vyse, R. H. R. H.
Sibthorp, Col. Waddington, D.
Sidney, Ald. Waddington, H. S.
Smith, rt. hon. R. Walpole, S. H.
Smith, J. B. Walsh, Sir J. B.
Smyth, J. G. Wawn, J. T.
Smythe, hon. G. Williams, J.
Somerset, Capt. Willoughby, Sir H.
Sotheron, T. H. S. Wood, W. P.
Spooner, R. TELLERS.
Stanley, E. Heyworth, L.
Stuart, H. Hume, J.

Resolution to be reported.

House resumed.