§ The house, on the motion of Mr. Wardle, resolved itself into a Committee for further inquiry respecting the Conduct of the Duke of York. Mr. Wharton in the Chair.
§ Mr. ROWLAND MALTBY was called in, and examined.
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Where do you live? At Fishmongers'-hall.
§ What is your profession? A Solicitor.
§ Are you acquainted with Mrs. Clarke? I am.
§ How long have you been acquainted with her? I think about July or August 1806. If you will give me leave, I will state the way in which I became acquainted with her: It was through the medium of Mr. Russell Manners, who was a member of the last Parliament; he married a sister of my wife's; be told me that he had been introduced to Mrs. C, who had professed an interest in him, and that she would endeavour to get a place for him through the means of the D. of Y., and be wished to introduce me to her. Under those circumstances I did not know how to refuse him, and I accordingly met her at his house. I believe I saw Mrs. C. perhaps five or six times in the course of that year; afterwards I did not see her again till a Court Martial for the trial of capt. Thompson.
§ In 1806, when you saw Mrs. C, what business did you transact with her; what passed between you and her on the occasion of your being introduced? No business, only a common acquaintance.
§ Did you hear any more on the subject of the place she was to procure for Mr. Manners? I understood that she shewed Mr. Manners a letter stating that, the Duke was inclined, or would comply with her request. I speak merely from memory, as it did not interest me.
§ Did you sec that letter? I am not quite certain about it, whether I did or not, but I remember the contents.
§ Do you remember from whom that letter purported to be received? It purported, as Mr. Manners told me, for I am not certain whether I saw that letter, to come from the D. of York.
§ At what time of the year 1806 did you hear of or see that letter? I think it was very soon after I saw her, July or August, to the best of my recollection.
§ Did you hear from Mrs. C. at what time her connection with the D. of Y. broke off? No, I do not think she ever mentioned any thing on the subject to me. I was led to believe it continued, from what she said to me in conversation.
§ In July and August she still represented to you that her influence over the D. of Y. con- 559 tinued? I understood from her that the connection was not entirely broken off, that she occasionally saw the Duke.
§ Did you, in the course of 1806, hear from her any thing respecting the obtaining of any places for any body? Not to my recollection.
§ I understand you to have said, that from 1806 to 1808, you did not see any thing more of her? To the best of my recollection, not till the Court Martial in April.
§ Have you, since that time, had any communication with Mrs. C, upon the subject of obtaining places for any one? Yes.
§ When? I will explain: As a reason for my keeping up a connection with Mrs. C, Mr. Manners hid a Regimental Account, to settle as the son of gen. Manners, which was likely to he procured through the medium of the D. of Y.; it was necessary to have a board of general officers in order to settle that account; Mr. Manners was indebted to me for sums of money I had occasionally advanced him to accommodate him, and I had an assignment of this debt, which amounted to about 1,000l. or 1,200l. of Mr. Manners, for the purpose of repaying me; therefore I felt a little interested in getting the accounts settled, if I could. With respect to the question asked me, I bad a communication with Mrs. C. respecting a Mr. Ludowick.
§ When? I think it was in Sept. last; the latter end of Aug. or Sept. to the best of my recollection.
§ What was the nature of the communication respecting Mr. Ludowick, and the circumstances of it? The circumstances were, that Mr. L. wished to have some place or appointment, and Mrs. C. asked me, I believe, whether I knew of any such place: I said, that I would make some inquiry; and I learnt that it was possible that the place of assistant commissary might be obtained: the consequence was, that money was deposited for that place, and I was led to believe that it might he effected; however it failed, and never took effect.
§ What is become of the money that was deposited, and in whose hands was it deposited? The money was deposited in the hands of Birch and Co. in Bond-street; the money is there now.
§ In whose name was it deposited? Part of it was deposited in the name, I think, of a Mr. Lloyd and a Mr. Barber; another part of it was deposited in my name, and in the name of Mr. Barber.
§ To whom was the money to be paid, in the event of the application for the place succeeding? There was 600l. deposited in the name of Messrs. Lloyd and Barber, I believe that would go into the hands of Mr. Lloyd; Mr. Barber was a friend of Mr Ludowick's, and the money was only to be taken out on the event of the appointment taking place; the other 157l. I think that was the sum, would have passed through my hands, and I should have paid it over to the person with whom I communicated.560
§ With whom was it that you communicated? With an agent, who was accustomed to make inquiries of that kind; may I be excused naming him?…His name was Tyndale,
§ Where does Mr. Tyndale live? He lives in Symonds-buildings Chelsea, or Symonds-street.
§ Who is Mr. Lloyd? Mr. Lloyd I do not know; I believe he is an attorney.
§ How came Mr. Lloyd to be entitled to so large a share of this sum? I understood that the agent would have a handsome emolument from it, which was 157l.
§ But the 157l. was deposited in your name and Mr. Barbers? It was.
§ Then that 157l. war to go to the agent, Mr. Tyndale? Yes.
§ I now inquire sis to the 600l.; who was to have the benefit of that? Mr. Lloyd would hive received that, I presume; I do not know of my own knowledge.
§ You do not know what Mr. Lloyd was to do with it, whether he was to keep it? No; I had no communication with Mr. Lloyd, or any one, upon that subject.
§ Who introduced Mr. Ludowick to you? Mrs. C mentioned Mr. Ludowick to me; I never saw him; I mean introduced by name, not personally.
§ Are you quite certain you never saw Mr. Ludowick? Never to my knowledge.
§ Did Mrs. C. teil you how she became acquainted with Mr. Ludowick? Upon recollection, I am not certain whether she said he was an acquaintance of hers, or an acquaintance of Mr. Barber's; but I understood from her conversation that she knew Mr. Ludowick, that she had seen him; she said, he was a very genteel man, and very fit for the place, very much of a gentleman, and a man of property.
§ Did she slate where he lived? I think she said he lived in Essex.
§ Do you recollect what part? I am not certain whether she said Grays in Essex, that is only her relation; I think that she said Grays.
§ Is Mrs. C. acquainted with Mr. Tyndale? No.
§ Was she acquainted with Mr. Barber? Yes.
§ Was she acquainted with Mr. Lloyd? I do not think she is.
§ Who introduced Mr. Lloyd into this business? Mr. Tyndale.
§ Who introduced Mr. Tyndale into it? I introduced Mr. Tyndale into it, by making the inquiry.
§ What share was Mrs. C. to have in the benefit to be derived from procuring this place? Nothing.
§ Nothing at all? No, nothing.
§ What share were you to have for the procuring this place? Nothing, I did not mean to take any thing.
§ You and Mrs. C. only did it for your pleasure? Mr. Ludowick was a friend of Mrs. C.'s; and I wished to oblige Mrs. C. by introducing this thing, if I could.
§ How came Mrs. C. to apply to you to assist her in procuring this place? I believe from my calling upon her.561
§ How came you to call upon her? I called upon her sometimes; she wrote to me, awl I wished to keep up an acquaintance with her for the purpose of effecting the object of the account.
§ How came you to think that at this time Mrs. C. could help you in effectuating the object of the account? I did think so.
§ Through whom? From her; I thought that she still had an influence or some communication with the Duke.
§ Did she so represent herself to you? Yes.
§ At what time? She so represented herself to me when we were down at the Court Martial, and since that time.
§ At the time of the Court Martial, and since that time, she represented to you that she still had influence over the D. of Y. to procure things to he done? Yes, I understood that the connection was not entirely at an end, that she had still a connection or an interest with him.
§ Was this the first instance of your assisting her in procuring n place for her friend?—Yes, I think it was; I do not recollect any thing else.
§ Is there any other instance in which you have been so employed? Nothing effected at least.
§ This was not effected; was there any thing else in which an attempt was made? Yes, she asked me whether a paymastership could be procured for a friend of her's.
§ Who was that friend? It was a Mr. Williams.
§ Where does he live? I understood he lived in Devonshire.
§ Did you endeavour to procure that paymastership for Mr. Williams? I made inquiry, and understood that it might be effected; but nothing was done in it.
§ Of whom did you inquire? Of the same person.
§ Of Mr. Tyndale? Yes.
§ Through whom was Mr. Tyndale to procure this paymastership; did he tell you? No.
§ Was there any money deposited upon that occasion? Nothing.
§ Was there any other instance in which you were applied to by Mrs. C.? Yes, in the same way, but nothing done.
§ On whose behalf was that? That was Mr. Thompson, who was connected with her.
§ When was that? I think it was in August.
§ Was that before Mr. Williams's? Yes.
§ And before Mr. Ludowick's? Yes.
§ I thought you stated, that there had been no instance of your applying for any body before Mr. Ludowick; I misunderstood you, I suppose? Yes; I did not mean to say there? was no instance of an application before; I mentioned that, as being the thing the most likely to be effected.
§ About what time was Mr. Williams's? I think that Mr. Williams's was during the same period that she mentioned it to me; I think about the time of Mr. Ludowick's.
§ Was any money deposited upon that occasion? No.
§ What did Thompson want? To go into the militia.
§ Did you make any inquiries upon that? Yes, I did.
§ Of whom did you inquire upon that?—The same person, Mr. Tyndale.
§ Do you recollect the name of any other person for whom you were to make inquiries? I think there was a Mr. Lawson.
§ What office was he to obtain? He wished to obtain a place in the custom house, land-waiter.
§ Did you make any inquiries respecting him? Yes, I did; I made inquiries of the same person, but nothing was effected.
§ Was there any money deposited upon that occasion? None.
§ Did Mrs. C. recommend all these persons to you? Yes.
§ Is there any other person whom you can recollect? No, I do not immediately recollect any person besides.
§ I think yon slated that there was no money deposited, except in the case of Ludowick; was there any agreement for the deposit or payment of money in the other cases, in the event of the application succeeding? In the event of the application succeeding in the case of Mr. Thompson, some remuneration was intended to be made.
§ What? I think it was about 250l.
§ For the Commission in the Militia? Yes.
§ Who was to have that 250l. I do not know, I am sure.
§ Did not you negociate with Mr. Tyndale? I asked Mr. Tyndale about it, and he said he thought he could procure it.
§ For 250l.? Yes.
§ Was not it at all mentioned in that conversation, who was to have the benefit of the 250l. No, I did not ask any questions of Mr. Tyndale, I thought it indelicate to ask questions.
§ You were to have nothing for any of these transactions? No.
§ Nor Mrs. C.? Nor Mrs. C.; Mr. Thompson was her brother, I think.
§ In the other cases, of Mr. Lawson and Mr. Williams, was she to have nothing in those cases? I do not know that she was, I am pretty sure that she was not.
§ Are you serious in saying that she was to have nothing for those? Yes,
§ Do you know any person that she calls the duke of Portland in these transactions? No.
§ You never heard her say, that she dignified you by the name of her duke of Portland? Never till I heard it by accident.
§ What accident led you to hear that? I was coming into the City one day, I met sir George Hill, with whom I have the honour of being acquainted, and he told me the circumstance.
§ Of her having mentioned it here? Yes, I did not hear of it before, and had no idea of the circumstance.
§ Was Ludowick recommended for any other 20563
§ place besides that of Assistant Commissary? When that railed lie wished to have a Paymastership in lieu of it, rather than give up the money; I understood that from Mrs. C, but it did not turn out to be the case.
§ How long is it since you have given up all hopes of succeeding for Mr. Ludowick? I believe a month or two.
§ How happens it that the money still remains in Mr. Birch's Bank? Because they have not asked to have it back again, I know of no other reason; they might have it back whenever they pleased; I told Mrs. C some time ago, they had better lake the money back, that there was not a likelihood of it being effected.
§ Did you ever acquaint Mr. Ludowick with that circumstance? I never spoke to him.
§ Had you any communication with Mr. Lloyd yourself? No.
§ Are you at all acquainted with Messrs. Coleman and Keyler? No, not at all.
§ Do you recollect the christian name of the Mr. Williams whom you spoke of? No, I do not.
§ Did you ever sec him? Not to my knowledge.
§ Do you happen to know whether it is the same Mr. Williams who appeared in this house a few nights ago? I never saw that gentleman, but I have no reason to think so; because I understood he lived in Devonshire, and was a respectable man.
§ Do you know whether Mr. Tyndade was originally an Ensign in the 17th Foot, and afterwards a Cornet in the 17th Light Dragoons? I understood that he had been in the Army; but I do not know in what regiment.
§ (By General Loftus.)
§ Did you ever understand from any person that sir A. Wellesley's being engaged at Chelsea was the reason that this business of Ludowick's did not succeed? No; I understood from Mr. Tyndale, that the trial at Chelsea occupied the public attention so much, that it stood in the way of the appointment.
§ Then you never did hear from any of the parties sir A. Wellesley's name mentioned? No.
§ (By Mr. R. Ward.)
§ Up to what period did Mrs. C. represent herself to you as being possessed of influence with the D. of Y. sufficient to obtain places? I had reason, from conversations with her, to think that even to the eve of this enquiry, the Duke had not deserted her.
§ Is that mere supposition, or has she stated to you any thing positively upon that subject since May 1806? She has said those kind of things to me, that induced me to believe it, such as that the Duke was about providing for her upon a smaller establishment than formerly; and those kind of things which have induced me to think he had not deserted her.
§ (By Mr. Bathurst.)
§ Then how do you account for Mrs. C.'s employing you to solicit favours, which you say, you understood she was able to obtain herself? [cannot account for that.
§ Did you ever represent to Mrs. C, that you had any influence with the duke of Portland? No.
§ (By Mr. Whitbread.)
§ With whom did you represent yourself to have any influence, so as to induce her to make those applications repeatedly to you? I did not represent myself as having influence with any person whatever.
§ With whom did you understand Tyndale to have any influence? I did not know; I did not ask him any questions.
§ Then the Committee are to understand, that you were a party to the deposit of money in the hands of third persons, for the purpose of procuring a place, without knowing through whose medium that place was to be procured? I did not know through whose medium it was to be procured.
§ Did you ever make application to Mrs. C. upon any other subject, except the liquidation of the debt supposed to be due to Mr. Manners? I do not recollect that I did.
§ When did you see sir George Hill? I saw sir G. Hill on Saturday, and I saw him yesterday morning.
§ What rank in the Militia was Mr. Thompson to obtain for 250l.? A Captain's commission.
§ In what regiment of Militia? I do not know the regiment.
§ Mr. Tyndale negociated the business? It was not negociated: I understood from Mr. Tyndale, that he could get it effected, but it was never negociated.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ Were you to receive any advantage from any of those transactions, if they had been carried into execution? No, I should not have received any thing.
§ What was your motive for undertaking such a negotiation? It was to oblige Mrs. C. it was her relation.
§ Was the negotiation respecting Mr. Ludowick to oblige Mrs. C.? Yes, he was a friend of her's.
§ Are you acquainted with Mr. Lloyd? No.
§ Did you ever write a letter to Mr. Lloyd? No, I do not recollect that I ever wrote to Mr. Lloyd; I did not know him; I do not think I could possibly write a letter to him; I am pretty certain I did not, because I had no communication with him whatever.
§ Are you quite certain you never wrote to Mr. Lloyd? I am certain in my own mind; I should be very much surprized to see a letter of mine to Mr. Lloyd.
§ Recollect whether you ever did or not write to Mr. Lloyd? I do not recollect that I ever did; I am confident, as far as my memory serves me, that I did not.565
§ Are you certain that you never did? I am as certain of that as I can be of most things.
§ Did you ever see Mr. Ludowick? No.
§ Who first spoke to you of Mr. Ludowick? Mrs. Clarke.
§ What did Mrs. C. know of Mr. Ludowick? I do not know; she spoke to me as if he was a friend of her's, but I do not know what the acquaintance was between them.
§ You were to procure this situation for Mr. Ludowick? I was not to procure it; but I mentioned it to Mr. Tyndale, who thought he could effect it.
§ Yon were employed by Mrs. C. to mention Mr. Williams to Mr. Tyndale? Yes.
§ And Mr. Thompson? Not to mention him to him, but I mentioned them to him of my own accord.
§ She applied to you to procure those situations? Yes.
§ Did you represent yourself as able, by your own influence, to procure those situations? Not the least; I never bad such an idea.
§ Did you ever tell her you were to apply to a third person to procure those situations? I do not know that I told her that distinctly; but I said I would enquire, to the best of my recollection, whether such a thing could be obtained.
§ You are certain of that? I am certain I never represented myself as having any interest to procure any place, not personally.
§ Are you certain you never told her that you were to apply to another person to procure those appointments? To the best of my recollection, I said I would make enquiry.
§ Did you ever name Tyndale to Mrs. C.? Never, I believe.
§ Who introduced Tyndale to you? I met Mr. Tyndale frequently at a place where I used logo.
§ Where was that? It was a Mr. Robins, in Bartlett's-buildings,
§ Who was Mr. Robins? He was a solicitor; I used to see him there when I called occasionally.
§ Did you ever see Mr. Barber? I saw Mr. Barber once.
§ Where? I called upon him.
§ Where? In Union-court.
§ About this business of Mr. Ludowick's? Yes, about this business, to offer to return him the money.
§ What was his answer? I think he said he would see Mr. Ludowick; he did not ask for the return of the money.
§ Do you know what connection subsists between Mr. Barber and Mr. Lloyd? No, I do not know that any connection subsists between them.
§ You never saw Mr. Lloyd? Not to my knowledge.
§ Do you recollect now having ever written to Mr. Lloyd? No, I do not.
§ Are those transactions with respect to Mr. Ludowick, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Williams; and Mr. Lawson, the only transactions of the sort in which you recollect to have been engaged? I do not recollect any others.566
§ Recollect yourself—There have been things mentioned, but nothing done.
§ Some others have been mentioned? Yes, I think there have.
§ What are those? I think a place of a clerk in the War-Office.
§ When was that? I believe it was about August, but I am not quite certain.
§ August last? Yes.
§ Had Mrs. C any thing to do with that? Yes, I believe she asked me about it.
§ Did you undertake that, at the request of Mrs. C.? I made an enquiry.
§ Did you make an enquiry at the request of Mrs. C.? I think I did.
§ Was it or was it not at the request of Mrs. C, that you made that enquiry? I think it was.
§ Are yon sure? I am pretty confident.
§ Be quite sure? I think so, that it was at her request.
§ Was it effected? No, it was not.
§ What were you to receive for that, supposing it had been effected? I should not have received any thing for that.
§ Was any body to have received any thing for that? Yes.
§ Who? I do not know who; it was never negociated.
§ In behalf of whom was the place to be procured? I do not recollect the name.
§ What sum was to be given in case it was obtained? I think about 3 or 400l.
§ To whom did you apply about that? Mr. Tyndale: I did not know any body else that was likely to effect this object.
§ Was it at Mrs. C.'s request that you undertook that? I think it was.
§ You do not recollect the name of the person?. No.
§ Do you recollect any other transaction? No, I do not recollect any other.
§ There is this clerkship in the War-Office, this affair of Mr. Ludowick, this affair of Mr. Williams, this affair of Mr. Thompson, this affair of Mr. Lawson; do you recollect any other? No, I do not.
§ Are you quite sure there was no other transaction of the same sort? I do not recollect any other.
§ You do not know that there was not? No, I do not recollect any other.
§ You are not sure that there was no other? My memory may escape me, but I do not recollect any other.
§ What was the place which you negociated for Mr. Russell Manners, in the year 1806? I did not negociate any place for him.
§ Did not you endeavour to obtain a place for Mr. Russell Manners, through the medium of Mrs. C.,in 1806? No.
§ What was your transaction with Mrs. C. in 1806? I had no transaction with Mrs. C. in 1806.
§ What was your acquaintance with her in 1806? It was through the medium of Mr. Manners, who married my wife's sister; I had no acquaintance With her previous to that period.567
§ From 1806 to April 1808, your acquaintance with Mrs. C. dropped, did it not? Yes; I do not think I saw Mrs. C. from August or Sept. 1806 till the Court Martial in April 1808; I do nut recollect that I did.
§ That Court Martial was held at Colchester? It was held at Weeley, near Colchester.
§ How soon after that Court Martial did yon again see Mrs. C.? I do not recollect; I did not know where Mrs. C. lived.
§ Where did she live when you next saw her? If I recollect right, she lived in Holies-street; lodged there for a short period.
§ You do not know in what month that was? No, I cannot speak positively, but I think it was before she went to Bedford-place.
§ Did you go to her of your own accord, or did she send to you? She wrote me a note, to call upon her; I did not know where she lived.
§ She stated, I suppose, in her letter, where you were to call upon her? Yes.
§ What was the object of her desiring to see you? I do not recollect what she said; I think it was something relative to what passed at the Court Martial, but I do not recollect.
§ Was it not to obtain some place for Mrs. C., that she sent for you? No.
§ You are positive of that? Yes, I am pretty positive of it; I have not the least recollection of it.
§ When was it that the first of these transactions you have mentioned took place? I think in August.
§ That was a Clerkship in the War-office, was it not? No, I think it was about Mr. Thompson.
§ Was Mr. Thompson's the first transaction of the sort that took place alter the Court Martial? I think it was; there was no great distance of time between all these things.
§ Was there no other transaction of this sort took place between die Court Martial and the affair of Mr. Thompson, besides those which you have enumerated? I do not recollect any.
§ Have you ever prosecuted any business of this sort with success? Never.
§ Never in your life? No.
§ And you engaged in these businesses out of pure good nature? I thought it would oblige Mrs. C., and I wished to accomplish the object I had in view, to have Mr. Manners's accounts liquidated.
§ How could you suppose, that by obliging, Mrs. C. you could get Mr. Manners's accounts liquidated, when she had so little interest, that the was obliged to apply to you to accomplish these different businesses? Because she told me that she still had an interest with the D. of Y., and that she was in some degree under his protection.
§ Are you quite positive she told you that? I am quite satisfied that she told me that, or gave me to understand it; I had no reason to 568 dispute it, from the tenor of her conversation to me more than once, as I mentioned before, that the D. of Y. kept her upon a smaller establishment, and I really believed she was under the protection of the D. of Y. or that he was about to re-establish her.
§ Did it ever occur to you to remark to her, that if she had that influence with the D. of Y., she was much more likely to prevail in such transactions than yourself? No, I never made that remark.
§ Where was it that she gave you to understand this, at Colchester? I think it was at Colchester, or going down to Colchester; it was about that time.
§ You do not now recollect any other transacactions besides those you have mentioned? No, I do not call any to my memory.
§ You do not recollect ever having written to Mr. Lloyd? No, I do not.
§ How many interviews do you suppose you had at different times with Mr. Tyndale? Upon my word I cannot tell, I have no idea; I have been used to see him frequently.
§ A great many? Yes, I have frequently seen him.
§ Then do you moan to state, in point of fact, upon no one of those interviews you have ever, from your own curiosity, or any other motive, asked Mr. Tyndale through whose interest those appointments were to be procured? Upon one occasion, in the case of Ludowick I think it was, I asked Mr. Tyndale, pressing very much to have it effected, what channel do you suppose this comes through? he supposed that it might come through the Wellesley interest, I think he said; he did not mention any particular person.
§ That answer was given by Mr. Tyndale in respect to Mr. Ludowick's appointment? Yes. Did you never hear Mr. Tyndale mention any other name in respect to the channel through which any other was to come? No, I did not ask him any question as to the channel, except upon that occasion, when I pressed so much to have it effected.
§ Mr. Ludowick's was the third application you made to Mr. Tyndale; do you mean to state that in the applications for Thompson and Williams, which were previous, you never heard through whose influence those were to be obtained? No, I did not ask him any questions.
§ Not till the third application? I do not say it was the third application, but not till that application.
§ (By Mr. Wallace.)
§ What led you to Mr. Tyndale? Being acquainted with him, and knowing that he was a kind of agent, and had information of that nature.
§ Had you any reason to know that Mr. Tyndale had the power of obtaining any offices? No, not personally.
§ Then do you mean to state that you applied- 569 to Mr. Tyndale in a great many instances, without knowing that there was any probability of his obtaining the offices he was employed to obtain? Yes, except from his own statement or representation, that he thought he could get them.
§ By what means did he state that he thought he could effect them? He did not state the means; I did not inquire into the channel; I do not know what communications he had, nor with whom he was connected.
§ Do you mean to state, that after you had applied to him repeatedly, and lie had failed in obtaining those situations for which he was applied to, that you continued still to apply to him without hearing from him the means by which he was to obtain future situations? Yes; I did not know that he had any interest in himself to effect those objects.
§ Had yon been in the habit of negociating, or have ever negociated for any situations of this kind, previous to your knowledge of Mrs. C? No.
§ (By Sir James Hall.)
§ State whether Mrs. C. gave you any hopes that Mr. Russell Manners's object would be effected? I was about to state the purport of a letter, but it is not correctly evidence, which I do not know whether I have seen or not; but I remember the contents of it perfectly well, particularly one expression of the letter, purported to be written by the Duke, and it said that he would give Mr. Manners a place suitable to his name and family. I remember that expression, I think those were the very words; or, that would not disgrace his name and family; something to that purport. This communication was not made to me, it was made to Mr. Manners by Mrs. C, this letter that I speak of, and Mr. Manners communicated it to me.
§ Did Mr. Manners state to you that he had seen such a letter, or did he bring such a letter to you? I am sure that he stated such a letter to me, but I do not think I saw the letter.
§ Do you recollect at what time this passed? I think about the month of August 1806, as nearly as I can recollect, perhaps it might be July.
§ Did Mr. Manners state to you from whom he had the letter? To the best of my recollection it was a letter written by the Duke to Mrs. C, which she shewed to him. I do not know whether she enclosed the letter to Mr. Manners, whether he had the actual possession of it, or only saw it in her possession.
§ Did you see Mrs. C. afterwards, and have any conversation with her upon this letter? I do not recollect that I had; I saw her afterwards, but I do not recollect that I said any thing to her upon the subject.
§ When you saw her in company with Mr. Manners afterwards, did any conversation pass on Mr. Manners's business? No, I do not recollect that there was.
§ Not up to this hour? No; Mr. Manners has been abroad for a year and a half.
§ Have you conducted his affairs since he has been abroad? No; he has no affairs to conduct in fact.
§ Did Mrs. C. in your hearing or to you, say that she had mentioned Mr. Russell Manners's business to the D. of Y.? I do not recollect that she ever said that in my presence.
§ Did you ever hear her say any thing upon that subject? I do not recollect that I ever did; for I saw Mr. Manners so frequently that he communicated every thing to me. I do not think I ever spoke to her upon that subject. Did any conversation pass between her and Mr. Manners upon the subject in your presence? I do not recollect any conversation.
§ Did you transact all this business for her gratuitously, or did you hope that this object would be effected, and that you should be remunerated in that way? I had no gratuity for it, but I hoped that I should get the account settled.
§ Have you expected that in the course of the last year? I have expected it; I remember speaking to Mrs. C. about it frequently, and not long ago. I think about a month.
§ You spoke to her upon the subject about a month ago? Yes.
§ Did she at that time give you hopes that it would be effected? She said, you may speak to me upon that about two months hence.
§ Did she say at all that she had mentioned the subject to h. r. h.? No, she never did.
§ Not at any other time? No; she seemed as if she wished to postpone that application; that I must speak to her about two months hence. That was about a month or six weeks ago.
§ Was it up to that late period of a month or six weeks ago you still supposed her to have influence with the D. of Y.? Yes, I still thought so to the eve of this inquiry, from her representations to me and her conversation.
§ Did you think so from her representations and conduct? Yes, from her representations.
§ (By Mr. Lyttleton.)
§ You have stated, that in one of those transactions the money was left at the house of Messrs. Birch and Co. have you any credit with that house? No, I have no account with that house.
§ They do not discount bills for you? No.
§ Do you happen to know whether Mrs. C. has any account with the house of Messrs. Birch, where this money was left? I do not know that she has.
§ Who proposed that the money should be deposited there? I. think it was Mr. Tyndale; I am pretty confident it was.571
§ His it ever happened to you, in transactions of this nature, to have money deposited at a house where you have a credit? I never had any of this money deposited upon my own account: I do not know whether it is customary.
§ I do not ask as to money deposited on your own account, but money on account of persons concerned in such a negotiation? I have no experience upon that subject, though I believe it is customary to deposit the money with the bankers to one of the parties, but I do not think Birch and Co. were bankers to any of the parties.
§ Has it ever happened to you in a negotiation of this kind, that the money should be deposited at a banker's where yon had a credit? No.
§ Was it Mrs. C. who made the proposition to you in the first affair you were concerned in, or you to Mrs. C.? I think Mrs C. asked me the question; I think she made the proposition.
§ What question did Mrs. C. ask you? I think it was ah jut Thompson.
§ What was the question Mrs. C. put to you? That she wished to get a Commission for him, and inquired whether it could be effected.
§ Did the bankers allow any interest upon the sum deposited? I apprehend not; I take that for granted.
§ You are sure they did not allow four per cent.? I am pretty certain they did not.
§ Are you perfectly sure? I have had no communication with the bankers; I never heard that, they did, and I rather think they did not, for the parties do not expect interest for their money, and I do not think that the bankers, upon those occasions, allow any interest generally; I never heard that they did.
§ Are you perfectly certain that you never did, in any former transactions, derive an advantage from the lodgment of money at Messrs. Birch and Co.'s? Yes; I am perfectly confident of it.
§ You have said, that you were not certain whether some conversation passed with Mrs. C. at the Court Martial, or going down to Colchester; did you go down to Colchester with Mrs. C.? I did. She called upon me; she said she was going to Colchester, and I was summoned very suddenly to the Court Martial; I had but an hour's notice; she said she was going down in a post-chaise; I said, then we may as well go together, and we accordingly did go down in a chaise together.
§ Did you not give evidence upon that Court Martial that you had not seen Mrs. C. either for some weeks or months preceding that trial? I think, to the best of my recollection, that I said I had not seen her from August 1806 till she called upon me.
§ Up to the period of your evidence? Up to the time when she called upon me.
§ Will you be perfectly clear in your recollection, whether you did not say that upon oath? I do not recollect that I did; I should wish to 572 hear that part read if it is in court; I have no idea that I differed upon that occasion from what I state now. I am sure, upon both occasions, I state to the best of my recollection; I may be mistaken in these trivial circumstances which did not interest me; that I did not see her from August 1806 till she called upon me to go down to the Court Martial: I think I staled that.
§ Will you state positively that you did not upon that trial, on oath, state that you had not seen Mrs. C. for either weeks or months up to the period at which you gave your evidence? I do not recollect that; if I did it must be a mistake; I fancy I corrected it, if I stated that: but I must be misunderstood upon that occasion.
§ In any of the conversations you had with Mrs. C. or Mr. Tyndale on the subject of these transactions, was the D. of Y.'s name ever mentioned? Never.
§ You are sure it was not upon any occasion? I am certain it was not; nor the name of any other person except in the way I have mentioned.
§ (By Mr. Huskisson.)
§ You have staled, that about two months ago you informed Mrs. C. that there was no hope of getting a situation for Mr. Ludowick; what circumstance induced you to form that opinion, and to communicate to Mrs. C. that there was no hope of success for Mr. Ludowick? From Mr. Tyndale; he told me that he thought that he could not effect it.
§ Mr. Tyndale told you that he thought he could not effect it? Yes.
§ Did he give you any reason for his failure? I think he said, to the best of my recollection, that a new arrangement had taken place in that department, or something to that purport.
§ When did Mr. Tyndale tell you that the appointment was only delayed on account of the Inquiry at Chelsea respecting the Convention at Cintra? It was during that Inquiry or that Trial.
§ Then you were led to hope, pending the Board of Inquiry at Chelsea, the appointment would take place as soon as that was over? I thought so from what he said to me.
§ And two months ago you were informed by Mr. Tyndale that there was no chance of success, owing to a new arrangement? I think it was only about a month.
§ [The following Questions and Answers were read:]
§ "In any conversations you had with Mrs. C. or Mr. Tyndale on the subject of these transactions, was the Duke of Portland's name ever mentioned? Never. You are sure it was not upon any occasion? I am certain it was not, nor the name of any other person, except in the way I have mentioned."
§ What do you mean by "except in the way you have mentioned?" That he said, that the place of Assistant Commissary he thought 573 would be procured through the Wellesley interest, not mentioning any particular name.
§ Were you yourself acquainted with the handwriting of the letter which you stated to have been a letter from the D. of Y.? I do not recollect that I ever saw the letter.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ Were you ever engaged in any transaction about writerships or cadetships for India? No, I think; excepting once a person asked me about a cadetship.
§ Who was the person who asked you about a cadetship? Mr. Donovan.
§ You are acquainted with Mr. Donovan, are you? I have an acquaintance with him.
§ What did he ask you about a cadetship? He asked me whether it could be procured.
§ When was this? I think it was about six weeks ago.
§ What did you answer? I said, that I would inquire about it.
§ Did you inquire? Yes.
§ What was the result? That it might be procured was the result.
§ Of whom did you inquire? I inquired of this same gentleman.
§ And he told you it might be procured? Yes.
§ Was it procured? No.
§ How came it not to be procured, do you know? I do not know how it came not to be procured.
§ Tyndale told you he could not procure it? No, he said he could.
§ From whom did you learn that it could not be procured? I do not know that it cannot be procured. Nothing is done in it that I know of.
§ What suspended the negociation? I do not know exactly, but I fancy the party was not in town, or something of that kind.
§ What party? An acquaintance of Mr. Donovan's.
§ The party who wanted to procure it? Yes.
§ Is the business in suspence now? Is it in a train of proceeding now? I do not know.
§ How long is it since you have lost sight of this transaction? I believe perhaps a week.
§ Then a week ago you knew something of this transaction, did you? Yes.
§ What did you know of it then? Was it in a train of proceeding then? Yes.
§ Had the party come to town then? No, I believe not.
§ It was in the regular process, was it? Yes, I understood it might be effected.
§ From whom did you understand that? From Mr. Tyndale.
§ Do you expect, now, it will be effected? Upon my word, I do not know.
§ What was to be paid, if this transaction was brought to a successful conclusion? I do not know that any particular sum was mentioned upon that, unless it was 150l.
§ £.150 to he paid to whom? That I do not know. Mr. Tyndale, I suppose, would receive of, effecting the thing.
§ Mr. Tyndale would have 150l. Yes.574
§ What should you have? I should not have any thing. Mr. Donovan, I suppose, would have paid the money to me, and I should have paid it over to Mr. Tyndale.
§ Are you a lawyer? Yes.
§ Were you aware that this was an illegal transaction? No.
§ Are you aware of that now? No.
§ Was this the only occasion on which Mr. Donovan employed you to negociate a writer-ship, or a cadetship to India? Yes.
§ Are you positive of that? Yes, I do not recollect any other.
§ Are you positive there was no other? Yes. Quite positive? Yes.
§ How long have you been acquainted with Mr. Donovan? I do not exactly recollect, perhaps a year.
§ Try to recollect, as nearly as you can? I think it is about a year, not quite.
§ Do you manage Mr. Donovan's affairs? No.
§ Are you an agent of Mr. Donovan's in other matters besides this? No.
§ How long have you been an agent of his in these transactions? I am not an agent of his.
§ How long has Mr. Donovan consulted you, or courted your assistance in transactions of this son? I do not know exactly; I have called upon Mr. Donovan occasionally upon other matters.
§ How often has Mr. Donovan talked to you upon matters of this kind? I cannot tell.
§ In how many instances has Mr. Donovan employed you in transactions of this sort? Only on that one.
§ Are you quite positive he has employed you upon no other? I do not recollect any other. Upon what Other transactions did you go to see Mr. Donovan? Mr. Donovan is intimate with lord Moira, and I have called upon him to know whether lord Moira's sister was arrived in England, because I expected a relation of mine would come over about the same time, or that I should have intelligence about her.
§ Come from where? From Vienna.
§ Do you know a person of the name of Gibson? No; what Gibson?
§ Do you know of a Mr. Gibson of Coventry-street? No.
§ Do you know a Mr. Gibson who was lately negotiating for the place of Tide-waiter? No.
§ You never heard of him? No.
§ Mr. Donovan never named him to you? No.
§ Did Mr. Donovan introduce you to Mrs. C. at any time? No.
§ Did you never see Mrs. C. from the year 1806 till the time she called upon you to go with her to Colchester in April 1808? I do not recollect that I did.
§ Had you ever any intercourse with her by letter, during that period? Yes, I think I had letters from her before the Court Martial, about her brother, Mr. Thompson.
§ Was this upon the affair of the Court Martial? I believe that related to it.
§ Try to be certain what it was she wrote to you about? I really cannot recollect the con- 575 tents of the letter, but I think it respected some Bills of Exchange, which came before the Court Martial, and there was some difficulty about them; she was afraid he would be arrested, I think; but I do not recollect the purport of the letter.
§ Had you no correspondence with her about matters of this sort? No, I do not recollect any communication of the sort.
§ Was it in consequence of that communication that she called upon you in the chaise as she went down? I recollect that she wrote to me a few days before, that she thought she should have occasion to desire me to attend at Colchester upon that business.
§ How many letters had you from Mrs. C. during the period between 1800 and 1808? I am sure I do not know.
§ All about this business of the Court Martial? No.
§ What were the other letters about? I do not recollect; nothing of any consequence, I believe. I do not think I heard from her for several months; those letters that I allude to, I think came from Hampstead; but the contents are so immaterial to me, that I do not call them to recollection.
§ They were not letters of business? No, I think not; I do not recollect the contents of them.
§ When did you last see Mr. Donovan? I think I saw him last Friday or Saturday; I rather think Friday.
§ Had you any conversation with him at that time about the Cadetship? No; I do not think I had.
§ Are you positive you had not? I do not recollect that I had.
§ Had you, or had you not, any conversation at that time with Mr. Donovan upon that subject? I do not recollect that I had.
§ You are not positive? I think I am positive. You have stated, that it is customary in transactions of such a nature as those you have been speaking of, to deposit the money with the Banker of one of the parties; what do you mean by customary? I did not speak of my own knowledge, but I believe it is usual; I believe it is natural to deposit it with the Banker of one of the parties.
§ Then you do not know that it is the custom? No: but I rather take it for granted that it is customary to deposit the money with the Banker of one of the parties.
§ Refresh your memory, and inform the Committee whether you can now recollect any negotiation of this sort besides the one of Mr. Ludowick's, the one of Mr. Williams', the one of Mr. Thompson's, the one of Mr. Lawson's, the one respecting the Clerkship in the War-office, and the one respecting the Cadetship? No; I do not recollect any.
§ What reason did Mrs. C. give you for wishing you to speak to her in two months respecting Mr. Russell Manners's affairs? She did not give any reason for it.
§ How could you afford to transact so many intricate businesses quite gratuitously? I have done a great deal of business gratuitously in my profession.
§ (By Sir James Hall.)
§ You have said, that in negotiating this business with Mr. Tyndale you had but little hopes of success given to you; did you represent the matters to the gentlemen who applied to you in the same light, or did you magnify their chance of success? I had no communication with those gentlemen, but only with Mrs. C; I communicated to her.
§ (By Mr. R. Ward.)
§ Can you recollect any single circumstance, or any single expression of Mrs. C.'s, that could serve as a foundation for your suspicion that she had any influence with the D. of Y. as to granting places since 1806? I only collected, from her conversation, that she still had an interest with the D. of Y., but she said nothing about a power to grant places, or any thing of that sort.
§ Do you know of her offering to procure, or of her pretending to endeavour to procure, any place by her own influence with the Duke, during that period, from the latter end of 1806? I do not, from the latter end of 1806, recollect her saying any thing to that purport.
§ Would you have been anxious to oblige Mrs. C., if she had not given you reason to suppose that she still possessed influence with the Commander in Chief? No.
§ At what period did Mrs. C. represent to you that the D. of Y. was about to reinstate her upon a reduced establishment? I think that was about the time of going down to the Court Martial.
§ Mrs. MARY ANN CLARKE was called in, and examined.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ Have you any papers of Mr. Maltby's in your band? Yes, I have.
§ [The witness delivered in some papers.]
§ State from whom you received those different papers? I received those from Mr. Maltby, and those two from Mr. Barber; there is Mr. Barber's name to one of them.
§ Do those you received from Mr. Maltby purport to be Mr. Maltby's hand-writing? Yes; his name is to two or three of them.
§ Do they all purport to be his hand-writing? Yes, they are all his hand-writing.
§ Did you ever see Mr. Maltby write? Yes, many times.
§ Do you know that they are his hand-writing? Yes.
§ You are positive of that fact? Yes.
§ Have you ever seen Mr. Barber write? Yes; this is only a sort of copy of how the money was to be lodged.577
§ Is that in Mr. Barber's hand-writing? Yes, they are by the same hand, and his name is to one.
§ Have you any other letters which you wish to deliver in? Yes, I have.
§ From whom are they? Three of them are from col. M'Mahon to me; I have lost the others, I fancy.
§ Have you any other letters which you wish to deliver in?
§ [The witness was directed to withdraw.
§ Mr. Croker
declared his opinion, that the Committee had nothing to do with the letters of col. M'Mahon. There was nothing before them to shew that such documents referred to the immediate object of the investigation, and therefore he considered it as an intrusion upon the very serious concerns of the country, to have the time of a Committee of the House of Commons taken up upon irrelevant subjects.
§ Col. M'Mahon.
When the witness on the last night was at the bar, she promised to produce letters of mine, which she said would exhibit me in my proper colours. At that time, as at present, the bearings of my own mind were, that to whatever topic these letters referred, however unconnected with the object which the Committee were investigating, or however unexplained the circumstances under which they were written, still it was my decided wish that they should be produced. That opinion I now maintain, and therefore, with every deference for the sentiments of the hon. gent, must express my anxiety that the Committee should receive them; although unable to recollect at this moment their particular import, I am still satisfied that they cannot, in any sense, appertain to the object of the present inquiry.
§ The Witness was again called in, and examined.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ Have you any other letters which you wish to produce? To shew I did not tell a story about Dr. O'Meara, I have a Letterof Recommendation from the Archbishop of Tuam, not to me, but to the doctor himself.
§ Any thing more? Gen. Clavering, I fancy, informed the lion, gentlemen here, that he never had any thing to say to me upon military affairs; gen. Clavering being a distressed man, he was then a colonel, I spoke to the Duke respecting him; and had a great deal of difficulty, more so than as to any other man that I ever applied for, in getting any sort of employment for him.
§ Have you any papers relating to that matter? At last I prevailed upon the Duke to give him a District, and with it he made him a Bri- 578 gadier General, entirely through my means. He afterwards asked me to net him a regiment; and, feaiing they all might he given away before h. r. h. came to town, I wrote to him when he was reviewing along the coast; here is the letter which h. r. h. wrote to me, in which he mentions gen. Clavering's name. There is another from the Duke, in which he acknowledges about Dr. O'Meara, that he would serve him as soon as he could; it does not speak of the Archbishopric, it merely acknowledges that he knows such a man. And the other is from col. Shaw, when in the Downs, just before he sailed for the Cane of Good Hope, complaining of being put upon half pay.
§ Do you know that to be the writing of h. r. h. the D. of Y.? Yes, I do: bat if not, Mr. Adam can speak to it.
§ Is that [another Letter] the hand writing of h. r.h.? Yes.
§ Have you seen the D. of Y. write? Yes, I have. This, addressed to George Farquhar, esq. is his usual hand-writing; whenever he addresses Mrs. Clarke, the outside is always in a fictitious hand. This is addresed, Mrs. Clarke to be left at the Post office at Worthing; the inside of both letters is his usual hand.
§ (By Mr. Bercsford.)
§ How did you come by the letter of the Archbishop of Tuam? It was left amongst Dr. O'Meara's Papers, among his documents, by accident, and I did not destroy it, because I thought it might be of some future service to him; when I gave him his papers, this was left by accident.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ Do you recollect through what medium you received col. Shaw's letter, whether by post, or a private hand? I fancy it went to Coutts the bankers; I think he directed me to write to him always there under cover, and the clerks would take care of them; but I am not quite certain, I think it was brought to me by a private hand.
§ Do you know col. Shaw's hand so well, as to be able to speak to that being his hand-writing? Yes, I do.
§ You say that is col. Shaw's writing? Yes, it is.
§ Did you ever see Dr. O'Meara? Yes, very often indeed.
§ Who is Dr. O'Meara? He is an Irish gentleman, a clergyman, I do not know better how to describe him; he is very well known in Ireland.
§ Where was this letter, purporting to be a letter from the Archbishop of Tuam to him, found? Among my own papers; Dr. O'Meara has written me several letters for it, but I could not find it till about half a year ago.
§ Did Dr. O'Meara send you that letter? Yes, he did, he gave it to me with other documents.
§ How long since? It must have been very soon after it was written, I believe.579
§ What time was that? I really do not like I to date the letter.
§ How many years ago? It was while I lived in Gloucester place.
§ How long ago is it since you lived in Gloucester-place? Since the year 1806.
§ Did Dr. O'Meara, upon sending that letter to you, direct any use to be made of it? Yes, to shew it to the D. of. Y. with the other papers.
§ Was it about the time that the D. of Y. went to lord Chesterfield's christening that Dr. O'Meara gave it to you? No, I believe it was some time previous to that.
§ How long previous? I cannot say.
§ It was previous to that? He gave me documents, but I am not sure that was among them: but I am certain that I received it from his own hands. [The witness was directed to withdraw.]
§ [The following Papers were read: Letter from Mr. Maltby, dated July 28th—Saturday evening.—Friday afternoon.—May [...]0th—Wednesday afternoon, December 7th. Thursday, 5 in the afternoon.—A papaper beginning "The receipts to be taken," &c.—Heceiptsin pencil beginning, "Received of Mr. Blake," &c—Letter from Mr. Barber.—Another form of receipt—Agresinent, beginning,"I William "Barber," &c.—A note from col. M'Mahon to Mrs. C, dated Monday morning— A letter from the same, dated Wednesday morning; and from the same dated Tuesday morning.—Letter from h. r. h. the D. of Y. to Mrs. C. dated August the 4th, 1805.—Letter from h. r. h. the D. of Y. to Mrs. C, dated August 24th 1804.]
§ "Friday Morn." "Dear Madam; The Regiment for Mr. Williams is going to India; this is lucky; therefore, let him immediately provide the needful, and I will arrange in what way it is to be deposited. Have you written to him, as no time to be lost.
§ "As to the 2d Battaln. is the Gentleman here and prepared? Your's truly, R. M." "Pray give me a line in ansr."
§ "Dear Madam, if you can by any means forward the adjustment of Mr. Marmers's Account as to his Claims respecting the 26th Regt. whilst in Egypt, of which the late Gen. Manners was the Colonel, You will much oblige Dear Madam, Yours truly, July 28th. "R. MALTBY."
§ "I don't know your true address—I called in Holies-street a few days ago, and found you were gone."
§ "Saturday Evg."
§ "My dear Madam;—I thank you very much for your kind attention—you would be quite a treasure in every way to any Secretary of State.
§ "You say nothing of the P—ship 2d Batn.; is the party ready?
§ "When do you leave B—place?
§ "I am, Dear Madam, Your's truly,
§ "R. M."
§ "Dear Madam, if I have not the Letter of Recommendation immedly., and the money ready, I fear it will he lost. I understand the Regt. is very respectable, but I do not know the County yet.
§ "Remember the Paymastership.
§ "Your's truly, R. M."
§ Friday Aftn.
§ "May 20th."
§ "Dear Madam, Mr. M. I believe is not in this country, but far distant; so it will not answer to send your letter. Shall I enquire for the object you mention? a Rank, and What shall I propose for it? Do you know any one who wishes, on certain terms, a Paymastership in the E. Indies?
§ "I will enquire about the other matters.
§ "Your's truly, R. M."
§ "Dear Madam; I shall ascertain to-morrow every thing respecting the P. ship.
§ "Will any person you know like a place in the Bank, abot. 100l. per an.—I believe another P. ship of a first, and one of a 2d Battaln may be had, and Militia Adjutancies. Dear Madam, Yours truly,
§ "R. M."
§ "Wedn. aftn. Dec. 7."
§ "Thursday, 5 aftn."
§ "Dear Madam; I have been in search of Mr. Barber, both in Bream's-buildings and the City, without success: I shall see him to-morrow at eleven, and I am satisfied I shall arrange with him, (I hope as he wishes.)
§ "In the mean lime, as it is CERTAIN Mr. Williams may have what he wishes, I beg you will be so good as to send to Mr. Browne instantly to call on me, as it cannot be kept longer than a day open; and I think I can satisfy Mr. B. that there will be no disuppointmt. Pray send to him directly. Your's very truly, R. M."
§ "The Receipts to be taken in the short form, as it is likely Coutts & Co. will not like to sign such a Special Receipt as that written by M. B. 630l. to be deposited at Messrs. Courts and Co. in names of L. & B. & 157l. 10. at Messrs. Birch and Co. in the names of Blake and Win. Barber —& to take a similar Receipt.
§ "It is absolutely necessary to make the deposit to-morrow, Friday, if not already done, as the Appointment otherwise will probably fail"
§ Addressed: Mrs. Clarke,
§ 14. Tavistock-place, Russel-squarc.581
§ "Forms of Receipt."
§ This and the two following papers are written in pencil.
§ "Received Sept. 1808 of M. Blake, and the sum of three hundred and sixty-seven pounds ten shillings, to be repaid by us to the Bearer of this Receipt, upon producing the same indorsed by the said M. Blake, and
§ "(Signed) BIRCH & Co."
§ "I do hereby agree to indorse a certain Receipt, dated Sept. 1808, for 867l. 10. received of M. Blake and myself by Messrs. Birch, Chambers & Co. immediately on the Appointment of as a Clerk on the Establishment in the War-office.—Witness my hand, this day of Sept. 1808.'
§ "N. B. A similar Engagemt. to be signed as to 52l. 10s."
§ "Received Sept. 1808 of & R. Maltby, the sum of 52l. 10s. to be repaid by us to the Bearer of this Receipt, upon producing the same indorsed by the said and R. Maltby.—(Signed) BIRCH & Co."
§ "Dear Madam; It is impossible for me to pay the Cash in this day, or even to-morrow, as it is in the Bank. Understanding from you that it would not be wanted for a fortnight, I hope the business will not be stopped for the want of this, for you may rest assured, honour is the order of the day in this transaction, and L. will come up directly and supply the Cash. I have made a little alteration in the blank Receipt and Agreement you sent me, but which I dare say will not be objected to by Lloyd & Co. Your's, &c.
§ "Tuesday." "Win. BARBFR."
§ "Recd. Sept. 1808, of Lloyd, esq. and William Barber, the sum of £.
§ "to be repaid by us to the bearer of this Receipt, upon producing the same indorsed by the said Lloyd and Win. Barber, or by the said Wm. Barber only, in case such Receipt, with the said joint Indorsement thereon, shall not be produced to us within two Months from the Date hereof. (Signed) COUTTS & Co."
§ "I Wm. Barber do hereby agree to indorse a certain Receipt, dated Sept. 1808, for received of John Lloyd, esq. and myself by Messrs. Coutts & Co. immediately on the appointment of J. K. Lodwick, esq. to the place of Assistant Commissary, appearing in the London Gazette provided such Appointment takes place within two months from the date hereof. And I the said John Lloyd, do hereby agree, that in case the abovementioned Appointment shall not appear in the London Gazette within the time 582 "above-mentioned, then that I the said J. Lloyd will indorse over such Receipt to the said Wm. Barber, to enable him to receive such above-mentioned sum from Messrs. Coutts & Co. so deposited in their hands. "LLOYD"
§ "Monday morng."
§ "Col. M'Mahon presents his best complipliments to Mrs. C. and had only yesterterday the pleasure to receive her note of Thursday last, for although he has returned to town for the season as his headquarters, he makes two or three days excursions from it as often as he can, and it was during one of those that Mrs. C.'s note arrived, otherwise it should not have so long remained unanswered. Col. M. will lake the first forenoon he possibly can to wait on Mrs. C. in the course of this week."
§ Addressed: "Mrs. Clarke,"
§ "14, Bedford-place, Bloomsbury."
§ ("Private.)" "Wednesday morng."
§ "I should be most happy to bring about your wishes, and render you any service with the D. of Y. but I have not been able to see him since I had the pleasure of seeing you, and I understand he goes to Windsor to-day, and stays till Friday, when I will try all in my power to seek an audience on your business, but am obliged to go out of town myself until that day; A thousand thanks for the loan of your seal, from which I have had an impression taken, in remembrance of your sprightly device.
§ "Ever yours,
§ "Mrs. Farquhar, "J. M."
§ "14, Bedford-place, Russel-square."
§ "August 4,1805.
§ "How can I sufficiently express to My Sweetest, My Darling Love, the delight which her dear, her pretty letter gave me, or how much I feel all the kind things she says to me in it? Millions and millions of thanks for it, My Angel and Be as sured that my heart is fully sensible of your affection, and that upon it alone its whole happiness depends.
§ "I am, however, quite hurt that My Love did not go to the Lewes Races: how kind of her to think of me upon the occasion; but I trust that she knows me too well not to be convinced that I cannot bear the idea of adding to those sacrifices which I am but too sensible that she has made to me.
§ "News, My Angel cannot expect from me from hence; though the life led here, at least in the family I am in is very hurrying, there is a sameness in it which affords little subject for a letter; except lord Chesterfield's family, there is not a single person except ourselves that I know.583
§ "Last night we were at the Play, which went off better than the first night.
§ "Dr. O'Meara called upon me yesterday morning, and delivered me your letter; he wishes much to preach before Royalty, and it I can put him in the way of it I will.
§ "What a lime it appears to me already, My Darling, since we parted; how impatiently I look forward to next Wednesday se'nnight!
§ "God bless you, my own Dear, Dear Love! I shall miss the Post if I add mine; Oh believe me ever, to my last hour, four's and Your's alone."
§ Addressed: "Mrs. Clarke, to be left at the Post-office, Worthing."
§ Indorsed: "Dr. O'Meara."
§ "Sandgate, Aug. 24, 1804.
§ "How can I sufficiently express to My Darling Love my thanks for her dear, dear letter, or the delight which the assurances of her love give me? Oh, My Angel! do me justice and be convinced that there never was a woman adored as you are. Every day, every hour convinces me more and more, that my whole happiness depends upon you alone. What a time it appears to be since we parted, and with what impatience do I look forward to the day after to-morrow: there are still however two whole nights before I shall clasp My Darling in my arms!
§ "How happy am I to learn that you are better; I still however will not give up my hopes of the cause of your feeling uncomfortable. Clavering is mistaken, My Angel, in thinking that any new regiments are to be raised; it is not intended, only second Battalions to the existing Corps; you had better, therefore, tell him so, and that you were sure that there would be no use in applying for him.
§ "Ten thousand thanks, My Love, for the handkerchiefs, which are delightful; and I need nor, I trust, assure you of the pleasure I feel in wearing them, and thinking of the dear bauds who made them for me.
§ "Nothing could be more satisfactory than the tour I have made, and the state in which I have found every thing. The whole of the day before yesterday was employed in visiting the Works at Dover; reviewing the Troops there, and examining the coast as far as this place. From Folkstone I had a very good view of those of the French Camp.
§ "Yesterday I first reviewed the Camp here, and afterwards the 14th Light Dragoons, who are certainly in very fine order; and from thence proceeded to Brabourne Lees, to see four regiments of Militia; which, altogether, took me up near thirteen hours I am now setting off immediately to ride along the coast to 584 "Hastings, reviewing the different Corps as I pass, which will lake me at least as long. Adieu, therefore, My Sweetest Dearest Love, till the day after to-morrow, and be assured that to my last hour I shall ever remain Yours and Yours alone.
§ Addressed, "George Farquhar, esq. No. 18, Gloucester-place, Portman-square."
§ Indorsed: "Gen. Clavering, &c."
§ Mr. TIMOTHY DOCKERY was called in, and examined.
§ (By Mr. Wardle.)
§ Do you know any thing of the transaction relative to the purchase of a service of plate sent to Gloucester-place? Yes.
§ Relate what you know of that purchase: in the first place, what commenced it, and how it proceeded till the bargain was made conclusively.—Not being a partner in the house at the time the purchase was made, I know nothing at all of the circumstance.
§ State in what character you were in the house at the time the purchase was made? As a servant.
§ What was your employment in the house? A journeyman.
§ What was the particular business you transacted in that house? The superintendance partly of it.
§ Do you recollect any particulars respecting the bargain about the plate, to your own knowledge? Nothing further than what was mentioned by Mr. Birkett.
§ Do you mean to state, that neither the D. of Y. nor Mrs. C. did in your presence examine and treat about that plate? Certainly not.
§ State what you heard the D. of Y. and Mrs. C. say, when they were bargaining for that plate.—The bargain concerning that plate was not made in my presence.
§ Then you do mean to state, that you never did hear any-bargain about it? Certainly.
§ The witness was directed to withdraw
The Attorney General
objected to the question, as contrary to every principle of evidence he had ever heard recognized by any tribunal.
§ Lord Temple
conceived, that as Birkett was dead, the present witness was the best possible testimony that could be produced to that particular fact.
admitted the latitude of the House of Commons in its inquisitorial character, to a certain extent, but at the same time considered the question proposed by the hon. gent, as repugnant to all laws of evidence.
§ Mr. Wardle.
As the Attorney General has thought proper, after the line and course of examination which he has fol- 585 lowed on the subject, in the presence of this house, and in the face of the country, to object to this question, I will certainly not continue to press it, but shall leave to the Committee the power of arriving at the answer by the best means it can devise.
§ Mr. Whitbread
contended, that the Committee were not fettered by settled forms or principles of evidence, as was the case in the courts below. If once such a limit was imposed upon the investigations of the House of Commons, there was an end to the inquisitorial power of parliament.
§ Mr. Fuller
believed that nothing' but party principle, prejudice and misconception, could induce men to deviate from the usages of those tribunals where justice was best administered.
§ The Witness was again called in and examined.
§ (By Mr. Wardle.)
§ You have stated, that you were the acting man in the house of Birkett? Not during the time that the purchase of plate was made by Mrs. Clarke.
§ What situation did you hold in the house? That of journeyman.
§ Is it within your own knowledge that the plate was purchased from Messrs. Birkett? Certainly.
§ Do you know the price that was agreed to he given for that plate? The books which have already been produced will shew that.
§ Do you of your own knowledge know the price that was to be paid for that plate? By referring to the books.
§ Do you of your own knowledge know the price tout was to be paid for that plate, without referring to the books? Certainly not.
§ Then you do not of your own knowledge know the sum that was to have been paid for that plate? By referring to the books I shall be able to judge.
§ Then you do not of your own knowledge know the sum that was to have been paid for that plate? I do not immediately recollect the specific sum that was paid for it, but if I may be allowed to look at the books I will state it. Do you know to whom that specific service of plate belonged, before it was sent to Gloucester-place? Yes.
§ To whom did it belong? The Duke de Berri. Do you of your own knowledge know that any part of that plate was suit up to Gloucester-place, for the inspection of the D. of Y. and Mrs. Clarke? Not to my recollection.
§ Do you recollect either the D. of Y. or Mrs. C. being at Messrs, Birketts, and examining the plate in their shop? No.
§ Do you recollect any thing with regard to the payment for that plate? Yes.
§ State by whom the 500l. was paid in the first instance.—The 500l. was not paid to myself, but it was paid, I believe, to Mr. Birkett;, as well as I can recollect.
§ Do you know by whom it was paid? I do not.
§ Do you know how it was paid, whether hi cash, in bank notes, or how? In two notes, one of three, and the other of two hundred pounds.
§ Do you recollect by whom those bills were drawn, by which the remainder was paid? To the best of my recollection, they were drawn by Mrs. Clarke.
§ Upon whom were they drawn? The D. of Y. Do you of your own knowledge know that those hills were afterwards paid by the Duke of York? Certainly I do.
§ Did you yourself offer those hills to the Duke of York for payment? I did.
§ Did you see the Duke of York at the time you offered them? Yes.
§ Do you recollect what conversation passed between the D of Y. and yourself, at the tune you offered those bills for payment? No, I do not.
§ Do you recollect the D. of Y. ever speaking to you at all respecting the service of plate? No, I do not.
§ How did the D. of Y. settle those bills? By his own drafts upon Coutts.
§ Do you mean to state, that the whole amount due for the service of plate, over and above the 500l., which you stare to have been before paid at the time, was then paid by the Duke of York upon those bills? Certainly.
§ Is there any body residing at Mr. Birkett's that was in the situation you now hold, at the time the bargain was made for the plate? No.
§ Do you know where the person is who held the situation which you now hold, and who was he? The person who held that situation is dead.
§ What was his name? Thomas Walker.
§ [Mr. Parker produced Mr. Birkett's book; and the account given in on the 9th instant was shewn to the Witness.]
§ (To Mr. Dockery.) Refer to that account, and state whether it is the account to which you have alluded? Certainly.
§ Are those the notes, to the best of your knowledge, for which you received payment from h. r. h. the D. of Y.? The notes that are entered here were the notes received of h. r, h. the Duke of York.
§ On account of that plate? Yes.
§ State the amount of the whole.—,£.1,821, 11s. 4d., that includes the 500l.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.
§ Mrs. ALICE HOVENDEN was called in, and examined.
§ (By Mr. Wardle.)
§ Do you know Mrs. Clarke? Yes.587
§ Do you know col. Shaw? I never saw him but once.
§ State what passed at that interview.—I had been some time negotiating with Mrs. C. for an, exchange for major Shaw, and he begged to know the principal; I said it was Mrs. Clarke, and I particularly requested that he would not mention lo Mrs. C. that Mr. Donovan knew any thing of the matter.
§ Relate what passed at that only interview you had with col. Shaw.—That was ail that passed, except, giving him a card or a note, I forget which, to Mrs. C, merely saying that was major Shaw.
§ What was your reason for wishing Mr. Donovan's name to be kept a secret? Mis. C. said she was afraid that Mr. Donovan would mention to the D. of Y. any thing of the business, which would be her ruin.
§ When was it that Mrs. C. expressed that fear to you respecting your telling major Shaw of Mr. Donovan? The first day I ever saw her.
§ This was before you mentioned col. Shaw to Mrs. Clarke? Yes.
§ Did you ever mention col. Shaw to Mrs. C. till after the interview you had with col. Shaw? I saw col. Shaw but once, and never saw Mrs. Clarke but twice since.
§ Did you ever mention col. Shaw to Mrs. C. till after the interview you had with col. Shaw? I had mentioned col. Shaw to Mrs. C. a long time before I saw col. Shaw, nearly three months.
§ In what way had you mentioned col. Shaw to Mrs. C? As a gentleman who wanted a lieutenant colonelcy from his majority; he was a major, and he wanted to get a lieutenant colonelcy.
§ How did you know that col. Shaw wanted to get a lieutenant colonelcy? After I had seen Mrs. C., I mentioned to Mr. Donovan, a gentleman I had known for many years, that I had got some very great interest, and that if he knew any person that wanted any thing in the army line, I thought I could get it; I refused to tell him where it was, or from whom.
§ Was it Mr. Donovan who mentioned col. Shaw to you? Yes.
§ What did Mr. Donovan state to you of col. Shaw, when he mentioned him to you? He said that he had very great recommendations, and had, I think it was, general Burrard's interest.
§ What further did Mr. Donovan say of col. Shaw to you? He said he would give 700l., I think is was 700l., for a lieutenant colonelcy.
§ Did Mr. Donovan tell you any thing further respecting col. Shaw? Not at that time.
§ Where did this conversation pass you have now alluded to? I think it was in Charles-street.
§ In consequence of this, did you apply to Mrs. C. to get major Shaw a lieut. colonelcy? Yes.
§ Were you to have had any part of that sum of money which you have mentioned, provided the lieut. colonelcy was obtained? No.
§ What was done in consequence of your application to Mrs. C.? Nothing at all.
§ Did the business break off, or did it die away?588
§ On the night of the day on which I sent the note to Mrs. C, I received a note from her, inclosing me major Shaw's security for the sum, saying she was sorry she could do nothing for major Shaw: previous to this, Mrs. C. sent for me to describe the person of major Shaw, his connections, and his interest, without which, she said, she could not mention the affair to h. r. h.: I could not then describe his person; I said his interest was gen. Burrard's, and he had lately met with some very great family misfortune; I believe his brother drowned, or something of that kind. Mrs. C. answered, that will do, I shall tell h. r. h. that I do it in compliance with the request of a very old friend, and in compassion for his present calamity; let him get two mouths leave of absence through some general officer, during which period I shall try and work upon the feelings of h. r. b. to accomplish my purpose, without his suspecting the cause.
§ It was after this you sought an interview with col. Shaw? Yes.
§ For what purpose did you seek that interview? It was col. Shaw sought it.
§ Did you then relate to col. Shaw what had passed between you and Mrs. C.? I do not think I did.
§ Was the matter broken off by any particular circumstance, or did it die away? I know no circumstance, except a note which Mrs. C. sent me.
§ Do you recollect your ever speaking of col. Shaw as having broken his word with you? He certainly broke his word with regard to telling Mrs. C. Mr. Donovan knew the circumstance.
§ Did you ever complain of his having broken his word, in not having made you a present? Never, because he did.
§ What present did col. Shaw make you? When I returned col. Shaw his papers and the security, he sent his compliments, and was sorry for the trouble he had given me, and enclosed me 10l.
§ Do you know any thing of a second application of col. Shaw's to Mrs. C.? I certainly do not.
§ Do you recollect the date of the transaction which you have been speaking of? The first time I ever saw Mrs. C. was in Dec. 1804.
§ Had you ever more than one conversation with Mr. Donovan upon this subject? I can not recollect, I have been in the habit of visiting Mr. Donovan and seeing him frequently, and what conversation has passed I am sure I cannot say.
§ State the date of the transaction you are speaking of.—It was, I think, from Dec. 1804 to April 1805, as near as I can guess.
§ Do you of your own knowledge know anything further of col. Shaw and Mr. Donovan, in that transaction? I do not.
§ Were you in the habit of corresponding with col. Shaw? I think I must have written letters to him frequently; it was a long period, and he was very uneasy, he was kept in great suspense.589
§ State whether you have any of col. Shaw's letters? I returned the whole of col. Shaw's letters.
§ To whom? To the best of my knowledge, through Mr. Donovan.
§ At what period did you return those letters? I believe ft was two or three days after he had seen Mrs. C.
§ How came you to return those letters to Mr. Donovan? He said that major Shaw wished to have done entirely with the business, as he was convinced Mrs. C. could do nothing.
§ Then you do not know any thing further respecting the transaction which took place afterwards between Mrs. C. and col. Shaw? I do not.
§ (By Mr. Denis Browne.)
§ Do you know personally or by repute a Miss Taylor, who appeared as an evidence at the bar of this house? I have, seen Miss Taylor, she came to my house one day with her brother, capt. Taylor.
§ What do you know of the character or repute of Miss Taylor? It is very hard to speak from hearsay: of my own knowledge I know nothing.
§ From what passed in the transaction between yourself and Mrs. C, do you believe that there could have been any subsequent negotiation between Mrs. C. and col. Shaw? I do not think Mrs. C. ever heard of major Shaw afterwards.
§ Did you ever tell any person, and if so, when, that. Miss Taylor was a person of bad repute? I certainly did say that I did not return Miss Taylor's visit, as I had heard something unpleasant.
§ What was the unpleasant circumstance that you had heard of Miss Taylor, that prevented your returning that visit? It was hearsay; and I should suppose I am not obliged to tell what I have heard, I know nothing myself.
§ From your knowledge of Miss Taylor, would you believe her evidence?
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
§ Mr. Fuller
proposed to ask the witness, if she had a female child would sire place her under Miss Taylor's care? This was objected to.
§ General Loftus
proposed asking the witness, would she, of her own knowledge, believe Miss Taylor's evidence?
Sir S. Romilly
thought if such a question were put, without accompanying it with explanatory inquiries as to the nature of the facts from which the opinion proceeded, or of the opportunity the witness had of judging of the conduct or character of the person referred to, justice was not done; and witnesses coming to be examined before the house must be placed in a very unpleasant situation.
§ Mr. Whitbread,
from what he had seen of the two ladies, would be more inclined to ask Miss Taylor her opinion of Mrs. Hovenden.
§ [The Witness was again called in, and the question proposed.]
§ I declare I do not see how I can answer such a question as that, it is merely matter of opinion, I cannot answer it.
§ (By Sir James Graham.)
§ Where do you live? In Villiers-street, No. 29.
§ How long have you lived there? I believe not quite three months.
§ Where have you generally lived? Where I lived before, that was in South Molton-street.
§ How long have you lived in South Molton-street? Upon my word I cannot recollect.
§ Cannot you recollect how long you have lived in a street? I went to it at two different periods.
§ How long have you generally lived in any oat-street? I had a house in Panton-square.
§ How long? Two years and a half.
§ When did you leave it? In 1805, I believe in June.
§ Did you live there when you visited Mrs. C.? I never visited Mrs. C.
§ Did she visit you when you lived there? No.
§ Where, then, did you see Mrs. C.? I went to Mrs. C. on business.
§ Have you before stated all the business that you went to her upon? No.
§ Then state what other business.—Pardon me; what other business I had with Mrs. C. was for Commissions for other gentlemen, whose names have not been mentioned, for whom she never did any thing.
§ Did you ever send the names of those other gentlemen to Mrs. C. or communicate them? I never sent them to her, I took them to her.
§ You delivered them into her own hands? Yes.
§ Then state the names of all those gentlemen; how many were there? I do not really recollect that.
§ State their names.—I said before, I could not do that.
§ Endeavour to recollect, and state their names.—It is not for want of memory, or want of respect to the house, but I cannot name them.
§ [The Chairman informed the witness that it was the sense of the Committee, after discussion, that she should enumerate the names of the persons to whom she had referred.]
§ I cannot mention their names.
§ You have stated that it. is not from want of memory, therefore endeavour to recollect as many of the names as you can.—It is because I think it would be a very dishonourable act in me to discover the names of gentlemen who have never been brought forward, and never profited by any one act I did.
§ [The Chairman stated to the witness, that the 591 house was armed with power to compel her to answer, and to inflict a very severe censure upon her if she did not answer the questions, which it was the opinion of the house should be answered.]
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Had you authority from (hose persons to whom you referred, to give their names to Mrs. C.? I cannot recollect that, I declare.
§ Did you ever carry the names of any persons to Mrs. C. without their authority? I do not know whether I did not, I am sure.
§ State positively whither you did or did not? Indeed my memory does not help me out.
§ State the names.—I cannot.
§ [The witness was directed to withdraw.]
Mr. Secretary Canning
suggested, that the question might be so framed, as to bring out the fact without disclosing the names of the persons. It was possible the witness might have been applied to as a broker, without reference to either Mrs. C. or the D. of York.
§ Sir G. Warrender
said, it appeared, that the witness was one of Donovan's agents; and the committee would recollect, that it was stated, by a former evidence, that he had given in a long list of persons who were candidates for promotion to Mrs. C.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
agreed, that if it could be proved the names had been submitted to the D. of Y. it would be proper to inquire into the circumstance.
§ Mr. Huskisson
observed, that previous to the D. of Y.'s letter, nothing was more common than for officers to purchase and exchange commissions through the medium of brokers.
§ General Fitzpatrick
confirmed this statement, and said, a clause was introduced in the Mutiny Bill, for the special purpose of putting an end to such practices. General Stewart said, it would be very unfair to the army, to have the names of officers mentioned, by persons without character, and particularly as they would have no opportunity of contradicting them.
§ General Mathew
observed, that there was hardly an officer in the army, previous to 1805, who had not been guilty of this practice.
Mr. S. Stanhope
objected to the question. It must necessarily implicate so many persons, that the committee would not be able to finish the inquiry in the course of the session
§ General Mathew
declared he would take the sense of the committee on the question, if persevered in.
§ [The witness was again called in, and informed by the Chairman, that it was the opinion of the committee that she must answer the question put to her, and that the house had power to inflict very heavy punishments, and never more severely exerted that power, than in the case of Witnesses who conducted themselves in the contumelious manner she had done.]
§ (By Sir fumes Graham.)
§ State the names of the persons you carried to Mrs. C.—1 did not mean it the smallest contempt to the house, quite the reverse; and to convince you that I feel a respect for this house, and not from fear, I will state the names: one is Johnson and another is Williamson.
§ Are there any other names? I do not recollect.
§ Endeavour to recollect.—I cannot.
§ You said there was several names, or a long list of names? I do not think I said that, I said there were some.
§ Did you never deliver the names of any other gentlemen but Johnson and Williamson? I do not recollect any other; I think I had others, hut I do not recollect their names.
§ You did deliver Others? I recollect those, because they are my own acquaintances.
§ What are their Christian names? They are, George Johnson and William Wilkinson.
§ Where do they live? I cannot tell you that, it is now three years ago.
§ Where did they live then? Upon my word I do not know where their lodgings were.
§ You have said that they were acquaintances of yours? I am sure I cannot tell where they lived, I did not ask the gentlemen their residence.
§ You stated they were acquaintances? Yes.
§ Do you now state that you did not know where your acquaintances Jived? They had not long arrived from Ireland.
§ Were they in the army? They never were, nor to my knowledge have not been in it yet; they were three months trying to get in, through Mrs. C. and could not.
§ Did you deliver any other list to Mrs. C. hut those two names? I never delivered a list to Mrs. C.
§ Did you ever deliver any other name to Mrs: C.? I cannot recollect any other name I delivered.
§ Are you a married woman? I am a widow.
§ How long have you been a widow? Nearly six years.
§ How long did you live in South Molton-street? At two different periods, I suppose about a year and a half, hut not altogether.
§ Were you in a house or in lodgings? I was in lodgings.
§ Did you ever apply to Mrs. C. to procure leave of absence for any officers? I never did, to my recollection.
§ Not for major Shaw? She told me she could not get leave of absence for him; I was to tell him to get it through general Burrard.593
§ Then you did apply for major Shaw? I sent word to major Shaw, that be must get two months leave of absence.
§ Did you apply to Mrs. C. to procure that leave of absence? I did not; she applied to me to beg major Shaw would get two months leave of absence, that during that time she might have time to work on the good nature of the D. of Y. for fear he might suspect there was any thing improper in the transaction.
§ (By Lord Milton.)
§ What answer did Mrs. C. give you, when you carried those two names you have stated to the committee you carried to Mrs. C.? She said she would try, but must be very careful to have lime, for fear there might be the smallest suspicion that it was a money transaction, as that would ruin her.
§ Did she express any desire that it should be particularly concealed from the D. of Y.? She certainly did.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ You live in Villiers-street, do you not? Yes. Are you in a house there, or in lodgings? In lodgings.
§ What is the name of the person to whom the house belongs? Adair.
§ Are there any other lodgers in the house he-sides yourself? I believe there are.
§ Is the Adair who keeps the house a man or a woman? A woman.
§ How long have you known Mr. Donovan? Eighteen years, I believe.
§ When did you last see Mr. Donovan? This moment.
§ When did you last sec him, before you came to this house? Yesterday.
§ Are you in the habit of seeing him pretty constantly? Constantly.
§ Have you any knowledge of any transaction in which Mr. Donovan is engaged? None, but that in which I was concerned myself, namely, major Shaw's.
§ Is that the only one of transactions of that nature of which you have any knowledge? I do not recollect any other whatever.
§ Had Mr. Donovan any concern in that list of names which you state yourself to have given to Mrs. C.? No.
§ Did Mr. D. at that time carry on any traffic of the same sort? I know nothing about any thing Mr. D. does, only what concerned myself.
§ When you went to Mrs. C, was it of your own accord, or were you sent by Mr. D.? I went of my own accord, without any introduction whatever, and Mr. D. never knew that I knew Mrs. C. till 3 months afterwards, and till the business of major Shaw was finished.
§ When was that? In April 1805 I think; I cannot be very certain as to the month, but I think it was April.
§ Was Mr. Donovan acquainted with Mrs. C.? Not to my knowledge, and I believe not.594
§ Were you often at Mrs. C.'s in Gloucester-place? I cannot say how often.
§ Were you in the habit of going there frequently? No, not very frequently.
§ How often do you suppose you have been there? Latterly, major Shaw got very impatient, and I went five or six times, I think, in the last month.
§ Did you ever go there on any business but that of major Shaw's? I staled before, that I went on other business, and I have stated the business.
§ Any other business besides that of major Shaw and that of Johnson and Williamson? I do not recollect the other names.
§ Did you ever go upon any other business but those two occasions? No, I do not recollect any other.
§ I understood you to state, these names of Johnson and Williamson were given up to Mrs. C. at the time, with a great number of others? I have not said a great number.
§ With other names, were this affair of major Shaw's, and that in which Johnson and Williamson were concerned, the only occasions on which you went to Mrs. C.'s? I never went to Mrs. C.'s on any other business but that, till major Shaw's business was finished, and the papers returned.
§ Were yon well acquainted with the house Mrs. C. inhabited in Gloucester-place? Certainly not.
§ Into what room did you use to go? Her bed-room.
§ Were you ever in any other room? Yes, the front parlour and the drawing-room, and the bed-room.
§ There was very handsome furniture in that house? Very.
§ Very magnificent? It was very genteelly furnished.
§ You have seen all those rooms, and have only been there two or three times; do you ml here to that statement? I recollect staling that I was there six times within the last month.
§ How long have you been acquainted with Mrs. C.? December 1804, I think.
§ The beginning of your acquaintance was in 1804? Yes.
§ On the occasion of Mr. Shaw? I went before I went on the business of Mr. Shaw, I went without any introduction whatever.
§ On what business did you go? I was told she had commissions to dispose of, and without any introduction I went to her and asked her.
§ Why was your being told she had commissions to dispose of the reason of your going there, did you wish to procure commissions? I did at that lime.
§ For whom? I do not know that I had any particular person in view at that time.
§ You were in the habit of procuring commissions? No, I was not in the habit, that was the first time I went.
§ Then you did go to Mrs. C. upon this business of procuring commissions, besides the times you went about major Shaw and Johnson 595 and Williamson? The first lime I went to Mrs. C, I told her I came to know if she had any commissions to dispose of.
§ Was I hat mere curiosity in you? No, it was not.
§ What, then, was your motive for making that inquiry? At that period I had met with a very heavy misfortune; my agent in the West Indies died, and a house in London broke, and I was very much embarrassed.
§ What mode did you adopt to ease your embarrassments? I had hopes that would, I did not conceive it improper.
§ You sold commissions? I never sold one.
§ You negotiated the sale of them? I treated, hut it did not succeed.
§ Were all the communications you had with Mrs. C. verbal; did you over correspond with her? I often wrote to her.
§ You had frequently letters from Mrs. C.? I had.
§ What was the latest period you ever received letters from Mrs. C.? I made it a rule, whenever I received a letter from Mrs. C. the next time I saw her, to return her her letters.
§ What is the latest period at which you received letters from Mrs. C.? I believe that one in which she inclosed me major Shaw's security; I believe that was the last, I do not recollect any other since.
§ Have you never received any letter from Mrs.
§ C. within these few months? No, I have not.
§ And you never kept by you any of the letters you received from Mrs. C.? I have not one of them.
§ When did you part with them? I made it a rule, whenever I went to see Mrs. C.,to bring the letter I had received the day before, and to give them to her.
§ Was that an invariable rule? To the best of my knowledge.
§ You have stated in your evidence very lately, that you have been frequently in Mrs. C.'s house in Gloucester-place, and that you have seen her in her bed-room and drawing-room, and several places in that house; is that so? Yes. How do you reconcile that to the former part of your evidence, where you stated that you had seen her only twice? I never said so.
§ (By Sir R. Williams.)
§ You mentioned that you would not visit Miss Taylor, out of delicacy; why did not that delicacy operate with regard to Mrs. C, whom you knew to he living under the protection of the D. of Y.? I stated before my reasons for calling upon Mrs. C.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ Did you ever upon any occasion receive any authority from Mrs. C. to negotiate the sale of commissions in the army? Never.
§ You have stated, that you were informed that Mrs. C. had commissions in the army to dispose of; who so informed your General report.
§ Who was that gentleman? Mr. Taylor; lie is married to a sister of Mrs. C. since that.
§ What object had you in asking him that question? That I might call on her.
§ You have stated, that you were in the habit of returning to Mrs. C. all the letters you received from her; what reason had you for pursuing that conduct? She begged I should do so.
§ Did she state any reason which induced you to do so? For fear any accident should discover her trafficking in commissions.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
§ Sir George Mill stated, that as a letter purporting to have been written by (he Archbishop of Tuam had been produced to the committee, a relative of that worthy prelate wished to be examined as to whether it was his hand-writing.
§ JOHN CLAUDIUS BERESFORD, Esq. a Member of the House, attending in his place, was examined;
§ (By Sir George Hill.)
§ Will you look at that letter and state whether it is the hand-writing of the Archbishop of Tuam? I have seen him write many times, and have no doubt it is his handwriting.
§ [A Letter of the Archbishop of Tuam was read.]
§ "Sir; In consequence of your application to one, I am ready to give ample satisfaction, and to bear testimony, that I have had assurances from persons in whom I place the most implicit confidence, that you are a gentleman of most unexceptionable character in every respect, of a respectable family, and independent fortune. I have the honour to be, &c. "W.TUAM."
§ "Crescent, Bath, Feb. 17th, 1806."
§ Addressed "The Rev. Dr. O'Meara, No. 7, "Alfred-street."
§ Mrs. MARY ANN CLARKE was called in, and examined.
§ (By Mr. Wardle.)
§ Did you know col. Shaw? Yes.
§ Do you recollect who introduced him to you? Not exactly.
§ Do you recollect his applying to you to procure any appointment for him through the medium of h. r. h. the D. of Y.? Yes, I do.
§ State what that appointment was.—He wished to he made a lieut. col. and to get into some situation upon the staff.
§ Did col. Shaw promise you any pecuniary consideration on the event of his obtaining the appointment? Yes, he did.
§ What was the pecuniary consideration he did promise you? I cannot say that I immediately recollect the sum, I believe it was 1,000l.
§ Did you, in consequence of this, acquaint the 597 Commander in Chief with such offer, and apply for the appointment? Yes, I did; previous to his getting the situation, he wished to be col. of the Manx corps in the Isle of Man, where his father had been deputy governor.
§ Do you mean to say that you applied for this situation for him? Yes, I did, but there were stronger claims in another quarter.
§ Did you then apply for any other situation for him? Yes, I did.
§ What was that? That which he now holds.
§ Do you know what that is? Barrack Master at the Cape of Good Hope; Barrack Master General, I believe.
§ Did you receive any pecuniary consideration in consequence of tins appointment? Yes, I did.
§ What did you receive? 500l.
§ Do you recollect how you received that money? I had 300l. from col. Shaw, and 200l. brought by some man, I understood it was a clerk of Coutts's, but I am not positive, and on that account had a great mind to send it back again, thinking it would be made public.
§ Were you satisfied with this 500l.? No, I was not.
§ In consequence of not being satisfied with the 500l. did you make any complaint through the Commander in Chief? Yes, I did.
§ What was the consequence of such complaint? H. r. h. said, he had told me all along, that I had a very bad sort of man to deal with, and that I ought to have been more careful, and that he would immediately put him upon half-pay.
§ Do you know whether major Shaw was put upon half pay in consequence of that? He sent me several letters complaining, but I did not trouble myself much with reading them; one of the letters I gave in to-night, I believe; I thought him already too well off, for his conduct to me.
§ [Letter from col. Shaw was read, dated in pencil, off the Lizard, 19th May 1806.]
§ "Off Lizard and a fair wind, 19 May."
§ "Although I have troubled you so often, and although my mind is nearly convinced that the hardship of which I complained HAS been rectified by the order of the Gazette in respect to my reduction being rescinded, yet whilst even the suspicion of so serious an evil and indeed an injustice continues, I know that you will make every allowance, and pardon my being so importunate. In addition to the custom of the army being in my favour (as you mentioned) the following instances are specifically so, and in the same appointment: It. col. Carey, D. B. M. G. Major 28th rest. Lt. col. Vesey, D. B. M. G. Canada, It. col. 29th regt., the late col. Brinsley, D. B. M. G. West Indies, retained also his full pay commission until his death; and I believe I stand singular in the army, in an officer being appointed to the staff abroad, and reduced on half pay in con- 598 sequence. Thus my case bears in point of right. Your feelings will justify my expectations in point of promise and assurances. The first impression of receiving injury at the hands from whence I had trusted to have merited the contrary, are the only excuses I can plead. For any intemperance that may have appeared in my letters, you will, I am sensible, as my mind was at the time affected, readily pardon. The period may arrive in which you will know that, independent of particular consideration, I merited your good offices; but until circumstances dovelope themselves, you shall never understand them through me or by my means. However severely I have felt, however warmly I may have expressed myself, of this be assured, that you shall not experience uncasiness of my occasioning. Though thus decided at present, yet permit me to say, that it does cot arise from viewing otherwise the severe and cruel injury of putting me on half pay. Independent of present. mortification, my prospects in the active line of my profession are ruined by it, and, God knows, they are not very brilliant, considering either the length or the nature of my services. Further, madam, in my present separation from my children, it creates in me sensations particularly painful, when I reflect, that if approaching that state to which we must all at some period arrive, that I could not (by this measure) have the consolation of resigning my commission by sale for the benefit of my large family; and that they should in this event have no other memento of my having served 23 years than in the expences of the purchase, &c. &c. of some commissions. In such cases the humane consideration of the present Commander in Chief have been eminently distinguished.
§ "I shall no longer trespass; my only apology rests in that every feeling is involved in the present object. I had even appropriated my full pay for the education of two children remaining in England; but illness has for some time deprived me of all my family. Let me, madam, owe good offices to you, and I shall be ever grateful. From your explaining this case, I am certain that his justice will be extended to me. Let me not be driven from my profession. Do away the present bar to my family joining me at the Cape; for I am sure that your sentiments will accord, that I ought not to serve when no longer with honour and on a reciprocal footing with those similarly appointed.
§ "We are not likely, I fear, to be a healthy fleet; some ships are very crowded, and sickness has already made its appearance; and there are two ships, I hear, without either doctor or medicines. Farewell and I hope to receive your commands.
§ "Do away the present evil, and unite the599
§ "Appointments I mentioned, and I will annually, remit 300l. Whilst I remain, remember do me justice, let not any tiling prevent this; allow not self or family have ever to say that we owed misfortune to such a hand."
§ Addressed: "Mrs. Clarke,
§ "18 Gloucester-place, Portman-square."
§ (By Mr. Croker.)
§ I understood you to have mentioned on a former night, that you never had represented yourself as being a widow; do you now abide by that answer? Does the gentleman mean represented, or that I have ever said so?
§ Have you ever said that you were, or represented yourself to be a widow? If I have ever said so, it was never but at the Court Martial; if it was ever at any other lime, it must have been in joke; but I never represented myself to he so; the two meanings are so different, of saying and representing.
§ Do you ever recollect yourself to have stated yourself a widow at any other time, but on the occasion of the Court Martial? I do not; but if the gentleman will put me in mind at what time, or to whom, I will answer to the best of my recollection.
§ Do you ever recollect yourself to have stated yourself to be a widow, at any other time, but on the occasion of the Court Martial? Then I must repeat the same answer. (A loud laugh.)
§ Mr. Croker.
If the committee thinks that a sufficient answer, I am satisfied.
Have you ever called yourself by any other name than that of Clarke, since the year 1806? I do not recollect that I have; but it is very likely, to avoid bailiffs.
Is it so common a thing in you to assume a false name, that you cannot positively say when you assumed such a name, or indeed whether you did so at all or not? I only wish the gentleman to point out, and I will answer it immediately, any pointed question.
Is it so common a thing in you to assume a false name, that you cannot positively say when you assumed such a name, or indeed whether you did so at all or not? I do not recollect that I have done so.
Do you recollect to have gone by the name of Dowler? No, I do not; but it is very likely others might call me so; I never represented myself as Mrs. Dowler.
Then you say positively, that you never called yourself by the name of Dowler, or represented yourself as bearing that name? No, I have not, without it might be in joke; and if that is asked me, I will answer the question; it must have been to some acquaintance, if to any body, as I have always lived under my own name.
Did you not, within the time alluded to, live at Hampstead, assuming to yourself the name of Dowler? No, I lived at Hampstead, but under my own name.
600 Nor in the neighbourhood of Hampstead? No, never any where, but in my own name.
In whose house have you lived at Hampstead? Mr. Nichols's.
How long did you live at Mr. Nichols's? I cannot recollect how long.
A considerable time? Some months.
During the whole of which you passed under your own name of Clarke? During the whole time.
In what year did you live at Hampstead? Part of 1808, and the end of 1807.
You have stated when you were last here, that you had seen Mr. Dowler but twice since his arrival in England; once on a Sunday, when he called relative to the business now under inquiry, and once in the Witness's room in this House; do you abide by that assertion? I will not be caught in a story about that, and therefore I shall say I did see him once besides.
Do you mean to say that you were caught in a story, when you before represented that you had seen him but twice? No; it is now perhaps your wish to catch me in one.
Did you not say that you had seen Mr. Dowler only twice? It is very likely I might have said so.
Is that true or false? It is true that I have seen him twice, and it is also true that I have seen him three times.
Where did you see Mr. Dowler the third time which you now allude to? In this House.
How often have you seen Mr. Dowler besides those three times, since his return from Portugal? Those three times? Once since—yesterday.
That is the whole number of times that you have seen Mr. Dowler since his arrival in England? I believe that the honourable gentleman can tell pretty well, for his garret window is very convenient for his prying disposition, as it overlooks my house. (A loud laugh.)
That is the whole number of times that you have seen Mr. Dowler since his arrival in England? Yes.
You are sure of that? Yes.
You are not now afraid of being caught in a story; you answer with perfect recollection? If the hon, gentleman wishes it, I will say I have seen him oftener, if it will at all tend to any thing; I do not wish to conceal that Mr. Dowler is a very particular friend of mine.
[The Chairman informed the Witness that she did not stand there to make observations on the gentlemen who examined her, but to give correct and proper answers to the questions put to her.]
I have, as well as I can recollect.
At what other places than those you have already mentioned, and at what other times, have you seen Mr. Dowler since his arrival in England? I have seen him at his own hotel.
When? The first night he came home, I believe, but which was to have been a perfect secret, as I did not wish my own family, or any one, to know I saw him that night.
601 Only the first night he came home?—And the other times I have stated.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
§ Mr. Wilberforce
objected to these questions, as tending to no useful purpose. The house was already perfectly aware of the character of the witness, and there was no occasion for this method of elucidating it farther.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was never more surprised than at this interruption. It ought to be recollected that the whole of these charges, as they affected the Duke of York, principally depended on the credit of this witness, and in some measure upon that of Dowler. This Dowler had represented that he had only paid her one visit, in the morning, since his arrival, and that for the purpose of persuading her not to bring him forward. He had endeavoured to hold himself out as an unwilling witness. If then, after what both of these witnesses had said, it could be proved that she had seen him at his own hotel, and actually passed the night with him, it would be a very material consideration, and would go strongly to impeach the credit of both.
was surprised at the rebuke which the right lion. gent, had given to the hon. gent, who, from the most conscientious motives, had objected to this line of examination, which had no other effect than to exhibit the character of the witness, in a sort of light, with which the house was already acquainted. Mr. F. defended the propriety of this objection, and thought that this line of examination served no other purpose than that of bringing forward unnecessary scandal.
§ Mr. Croker
expressed his surprize that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fitzgerald) should have volunteered in defending his lion, friend (Mr. Wilberforce), upon whom he (Mr. Croker) had certainly made no attack. Mr. Dowler had given in evidence, that he had seen Mrs. Clarke only twice since his return from Portugal, whereas it now appeared from Mrs. Clarke's own evidence, that they had met much oftener, and he put it to the committee, whether it could be considered as idle in him to question the witness upon a point which went not only to undermine the credibility of one, but of both. Besides, if instead only of two interviews, there had not been an hour from his arrival in this country to the time at which he appeared at the bar of the house, in which he might not have 602 been passing his time with this woman, and plotting along with her an attack upon the illustrious personage now accused, it was surely fit that the committee should be made acquainted with this circumstance. He therefore trusted, that he should not be interrupted in the train of questions which he had thought it his duty to put to the witness.
§ Sir G. Warrender
admitted that the questions put by the hon. gent, bore upon the credibility of the witness; at the same time he was not of opinion, that in whatever manner they might be answered, they would imply that sort of contradiction which was calculated to remove the impression of the evidence from the mind of the public. It had been said by a right hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Long), that there were no minutes of the recommendation which led to Mr. Dowler's appointment at the Treasury. Now, if it should be found that such a minute did exist—
§ Here the hon. bait. was called to order by general Stewart.
§ Sir G. Warrender
said, that his object was to shew that the examination of the hon. gent. (Mr. Croker), could not lead to any result at all satisfactory to the country; and, in his opinion, it would be much better to make the questions to bear upon facts, than upon any flaw which might afterwards be detected in the consistency of the evidence.
Mr. B. Bathurst
declared, that if this line of examination was not tolerated, he did not see how the committee could at all arrive at the truth. If the evidence of only one person was brought to substantiate a fact, it was surely of no small importance to know whether the testimony of this person ought or ought not to be believed.
§ Mr. Adam
contended, that the examination instituted by the hon. gent, affected the credibility of Dowler as well as of Mrs. Clarke, and that on that account it was of no small importance. Dowler had given in evidence, that he had obtained his appointment through the influence of Mrs. Clarke; he had also declared, that he had only seen her twice since his return from Portugal. Now, if he was convicted of saying what was not true in the one case; it was by no means improbable that he might have spoken falsehood in both.
§ [The Witness was again called in and examined.]603
§ (By Mr. Croker.)
§ Are those the whole of the times you have seen Mr. Dowler since his arrival in England? Yes, they are.
§ You have stated you saw Mr. Dowler at his hotel; how often did you see Mr. Dowler at his hotel? I have told you, once.
§ Only once? Only once.
§ What day was that? I have already stated it was the first day he came home.
§ On Thursday? Yes, on Thursday.
§ What time of the day did you see him at his hotel on the Thursday? At night.
§ Did you pass under your own name, of Clarke, on that occasion? I passed under no name:
§ Do you now perfectly recollect that you saw him at his hotel since his arrival in England but on that one occasion, that Thursday night? —No, the other times I have stated.
§ At what hotel did you see him? At Reid's, in St. Martin's-lane.
§ Did you see him more than one time at that hotel? No, I did not, I saw him at my own house afterwards.
§ Were you in company with Mr. Dowler for n. considerable time upon that occasion? I have stated that I was in company with Mr. Dowler; and I beg leave to ask the Chair, whether this is a proper question, whether it is not unbecoming the dignity of the house?
§ Did you see Mr. Dowler on the Friday morning?
§ [The Witness was ordered to withdraw.
§ [The Witness was again called in, and the question was proposed]
§ My visit continued till the Friday morning.
§ (By Mr. Lyttleton.)
§ Had you any credit with the D. of Y.'s bankers? Which of them?
§ With either of them? With neither.
§ Did you ever draw any hills upon the D. of Y., which lie accepted?, No; it was given out at the Horse-Guards, that I had committed a forgery upon the Duke for 2,000l., which I did not, and it followed me all over the country, and many persons were very much inclined to believe it, as Mrs. Hamilton Pye, col. Gordon's sister, said she knew it of her own knowledge.
§ Did you ever draw any bills upon the D. of Y., which he accepted? No, he always drew them and accepted them himself; I never had any thing to do with them, he did the whole.
§ Do you mean you never sent a bill, drawn upon the D. of Y., to Birkett's the silversmith's? Once or twice h. r, h. gave me small bills for 3 or 400l., but they were his own signing and drawing up; it was to get my necklace, or something in that way, from Parker's in Fleet-street, but I never drew a bill, nor never touched any thing of the kind; 604 but I was always obliged to sign something else, private to Parker, for he would not take h. r. h.'s bill without my doing so.
§ Then you deny that you sent any bill drawn by the D. of Y. or yourself upon the D. of Y. to Birkett's the silversmith's? I never sent any to Birkett's.
§ (By Sir George Warrender.)
§ You have stated the number of horses and servants you kept, and that h. r. h. allowed you only 1,000l. a year; I believe you remained under the protection of the D. of Y. for three years; during that time did not h. r. h. pay you to the amount of 25,000l. in those three years? O dear, no! He very frequently did not make good his monthly payments, and for the three months before he left me I never had a guinea from him; and although Mr. Adam has stated that h. r. h. parted with me on account of a bill, h. r. h. never had the generosity to give me the money for that bill; it was only 130l. and I never had a guinea value for it; I had given it to Mr. Corri, to save him from going to prison.
§ Do you not believe that h. r. h., during the three years you were under his protection, paid 20,000l. for you, including all the various sums that were advanced to you, the payment of tradesmen's bills, &C. &c. &c. during those three years? No, he did not.
§ Will you undertake to say that h. r. h. did not pay 15,000l. for you during those three years? Do you include b. r. h. paying for the house before I went into it, or keeping me and the establishment?
§ Including every thing, all the advances that were made.—I cannot tell what he paid for the house; I can tell what my lawyer got for it.
§ What was the amount which you got for it? I believe the whole sold for 4,400l.; and I think it is proper for me to state in what situation I was, which h. r. h. knew at the time of our parting: some short time before, I had borrowed different sums of money of my lawyer, to the amount of 12 or 1400l., and f asked the Duke for the lease, and he gave it to me, and I gave it up to the lawyer for the different sums of money received from him before the house was got rid of; h. r. h. had not paid the rent for the last half year, and I fancy the taxes for a twelvemonth were not paid; I always paid the taxes; I took 700l. on account to pay the poor trades-people and the servants; 700l. was due to Mr. Parker, for trinkets, which were got from him to be sold in the sale.
§ Exclusive of the house, will you undertake to say you have not received to the amount of 15,000l. from h. r. h.? That I am very sure of.
§ Can you undertake to say that positively? Positively.
§ Will you undertake to say positively you did not receive 12,000l. from h. r. h., including every advance, and articles paid for during those three years? Yes.605
§ Will you undertake to say positively h. r. h. did not pay 10,000l. to and for you? Yes, I can. H. r. h. paid nothing for mc but in gifts, except what he was to have brought me regularly; whatever value it might have been it was in trinkets and those things, it was presents, not in money; I cannot say what the amount of those might be, they all went from me before I left Gloucester-place, which h. r. h. must be aware of, that I had nothing even to take me out of town. He premised to give me 200l. for my journey, but Mr. Adam objected to that to my lawyer, and said 100l. was plenty; but the Duke overruled it, and sent me two some time afterwards.
§ Will you undertake to say that the whole amount of h. r. h.'s advances to you and for you did not amount to 5,000l.? No, I cannot say as to that.
§ (By Mr. Herbert.)
§ Do you mean to say, that, except the 1,000l. a year, which was given for the establishment, and which was shortly paid, you were not paid any more money, and was it not to a very large amount? No.
§ Were you paid no more money besides the 1,000l. a year? No, I was not. I certainly complained to h. r. h., and tie said, he would make some future arrangement. I convinced him that it did not more than sufficient to pay the servants wages and liveries.
§ Then if I understand you right, you say positively that you had no more to live upon in money than 1,000l. a year? No, I should not say that; ill have been very much harassed for any thing, and could not get it from other quarters, and there was nothing in view, h. r. h. would then bring me 100l. extra, or two, perhaps, but I do not recollect even two; I do one or so, one now and then, but not often.
§ Then in point of fact, the Committee are to understand you did not receive any considerable sums of money to support your establishment, except the 1,000l. a year? No.
§ (By Sir George Warrender.)
§ In the course of your former examination you stated, that b. r. h. advanced sums of money when unpleasant things happened, and that unpleasant things were constantly happening; do you adhere to that statement? This is what I have been alluding to now, but it never exceeded 200l. or came to that; I never recollect his bringing me 200l. over what was the allowance; when I first went to Gloucester place, the first present that ever b. r. h. made me was 500l.; that went for linen and different things.
§ State what you mean by constantly; how often in the course of a month? I mean in the course of three years.
§ How often do you mean unpleasant things have happened, when you apply the term constantly? I think it is an improper term; they frequently happened; but Mr. Dowler has re- 606 lieved several things as well as h. r. h., and J. think oftener; I do not recollect h. r. h.'s doing any thing above twice.
§ Do you mean to say that twice in the course of three years is your explanation of constantly? I have said that the word was improperly used.
§ (By Mr. Wallace.)
§ You have stated, that when the D. of Y. quitted you, he left you in debt upwards of 2,000l.; was that beyond the sum for which you sold the house, and was not the house left to you for the express purpose of paying your debts? There was no money left after the small debts were paid, and the 700l. I had paid among the poorer sort of people and the tenants, which the lawyer can prove; I have stated that there was 400l. or 500l. to Mr. Harry Phillips, for his commission: I had no balance coming to mc, H. r. h. has stated, that I had trinkets to pay the debts as well as the house, but he knew where the trinkets were; Mr. Comrie can state the whole.
§ How soon after you went to live in Gloucester-place did your distresses begin? A long time after; I was perfectly clear of debt when I wont there.
§ Did you receive any considerable sum beforehand from b. r. h., or only received the instalments of 1,000l. a year when you went there? I had 500l. to buy some little necessary things in plate and linen.
§ That was the 500l. you mentioned before? Yes.
§ Then that 500l. no part of it went towards the establishment? No, it went immediately in necessaries.
§ (By Mr. Simeon.)
§ How soon did you begin the establishment which you stated the other night, as to the number of servants, horses, and other expellees? Immediately.
§ Were you accurate in stating that what you had from h. r. h. would only pay the liveries and wages? Very soon afterwards I found it.
§ Then how did you support this establishment in other respects; how did you feed the servants, and where did you get your monies for the other expences you might have had? Some of the money has come before the house, the manner in which I used to get it.
§ How soon did that begin after your establishment in Gloucester-place? I should think about half a year perhaps; I never began it till I felt distressed, and the hints I had from h. r. h.; he told me that I always had more interest than the Queen had, and that I might use it.
§ Had your distresses begun before the end of the six months; if not, how soon afterwards? I was going on in credit at the beginning.
§ How much do you think you were indebted at the end of the first six months? I really cannot say, I was always frightened to look at it.607
§ Then you were largely indebted at the end of the first six months? Very much so.
§ Then your distresses must have, begun, and your pressure by bills must have begun, very shortly niter that time? Yes.
§ Did they not continue during the whole of the three years? Yes, they did.
§ Can you say nearly to what-, number of persons you might be indebted on account of your establishment; what number of creditors you had? That is quite impossible; I have a list of a great many at home, of all that I owe money to.
§ Do you think you had fewer than fifty? I should think not fewer than fifty; but it might be fifty, or perhaps more.
§ They were all very pressing? Most of them, as soon as I got into debt, pressed for places.
§ Did they not press for money? When they found I did not take them up in the other way.
§ How long were they before they found that? I always felt it was impossible to recommend a tradesman to any place; and one that was about me especially.
§ Then they soon found they could get no places? Yes, I suppose they did.
§ Then they immediately proceeded to demand their monies, did not they? Yes, they did: but they were always very willing to serve me, because they were handsomely paid in the cud; they charged me quite as high as ever they charged the Duke himself, if hot higher.
§ Did not numbers of them proceed, at the expiration of six months or thereabouts, to bring actions against you? Yes, they did.
§ Did not many of those actions proceed, so as to incur great costs, besides the debts? Yes, very great indeed.
§ What do you say you were indebted when the establishment m Gloucester-place broke up? Under 3,000l.
§ Then how were those great debts paid that were incurred, and which were so continually pressed for, from the expiration of six months, and greatly swelled by the costs of the actions? I found means in some way or other to satisfy them.
§ Were not those means supplied directly or indirectly, to a great amount, by the Duke of York? No, never.
§ Can you then take upon yourself to say, that many bills, upon which actions were brought, and the costs incurred, were none of them satisfied by the Duke of York? No.
§ How do you know that? I know it as well as I know any other circumstance.
§ Did you pay them yourself? Yes.
§ How long after your living in Gloucester-place was it before you were enabled to get any sums of money, by the patronage you talked of? Perhaps three or four months, or five months, I cannot exactly say.
§ Can you say to what amount you got by it in the first year? No, I cannot, I never took any account.
§ (By Sir George Wurrender.)
§ Did the D. of Y. defray the charge of no part of your expenditure, such as horses and carriages, independent of the allowance? He bought one carriage, which I stated before.
§ Did he purchase any horses? For about six months I had job horses, the others I always purchased myself. I lost about 900l. in one year, in the purchase of horses.
§ Were those horses kept at the expence of the D. of Y., exclusive of the allowance? No, they were not.
§ Do you know the father of Miss Taylor, who was examined here the other night? I do.
§ How long have you known him? I have known him about ten years, but I have never seen him above half a dozen times.
§ Have you always known him by the name of Taylor? Always.
§ Did you ever state to h. r. h. that 1,000l. a year was insufficient to support your establishment? Yes, he knew it.
§ (By Mr. Simeon.)
§ Miss Taylor stated herself to be very poor; have you been kind to her, and made her presents from time to time? Yes, I have.
§ Have you lately? Yes; I have not within these two months; about Christmas she told me she should get the money for her scholars, it was previous to that I assisted her.
§ To what amount did you assist her? Very trifling, I had not much within my own power.
§ (By Mr. Wurdle.)
§ Did the D. of Y. ever send out bills in your name, for which he received the money himself? I have asked for money for b. r. h. of a gentleman, but the Duke wanted to give a longer bill for it.
§ Of your own knowledge, can you say, that the D. of Y. was in the habit of drawing bills at date, in which he placed your name? No.
§ Do you know that these bills, by which the plate at Messrs. Birkett's was paid for, were drawn in the way alluded to? I never saw the bills; I should rather suppose they were drawn upon himself, and signed 'Frederick.'
§ Do you recollect ever getting any money for the D. of Y., upon any bills drawn by himself, or any paper of that description, that he gave you with his name upon it? No; I do not think that I did.
§ You spoke of having a house at Weybridge; was that house ever repaired at your expence? Yes, it was thoroughly repaired, and I built a two-stall stable there; I laid out between 200l. and 3000l. upon it, if not more; I believe more; there was 40l. or 50l. alone for oil cloth, to screen h. r. h.: to screen his visits, when he was going backwards and forwards, from the neighbours.609
§ Do you know what your diamonds cost the D. of Y.? No, I do not; I never asked.
§ Were those diamonds ever in pawn, during the period you were with the D. of Y.? Very frequently; and I recollect that when Mr. Dowler paid me 800l. I took them out; so that Parker's book would convince about the time that he got his appointment, and I received the money from him; it was within two or three days of his being gazetted, either after or before.
§ Was the D. of Y. acquainted with the circumstance of your diamonds being in pawn? Yes; because he gave me his own bill once, and something else, payable to Parker; Parker can shew by his books who it was payable to.
§ Do you recollect the amount of that bill? 400l.
§ You have this night stated, that if ever you called yourself Mr. Dowler, it must have been in joke; and you have stated also, that when you were at Hampstead, you had not called yourself Mrs. Dowler? No, I had not, never.
§ State whether you might not then have said any thing of that kind in joke? I might have said that in joke; but I never represented myself as Mrs. Dowler, nor as any thing but exactly what I am, except at the Court Martial.
§ Did you receive any letters when you were at Hampstead? Yes I did.
§ Do you recollect how those letters were directed; were they to Mrs. Clarke? To Mrs. Clarke or else to captain Thompson, for I was afraid of being arrested; or to Mrs. Nichols, the woman's name who waited upon me; she acted as my cook; she was the mistress of the house.
§ Do you recollect any letter or letters directed to you as Mrs. Dowler? No, never; I never bad such a thing.
§ Was Miss Taylor in the habit of visiting you frequently in Gloucester-place? She almost used to live constantly with me there, she would be there two or three days in a week; that was when her father's misfortunes were beginning.
§ Was Miss Taylor in the habit of dining, when she was there, with the D. of Y. and yourself? Very frequently.
§ Do you recollect the names of the servants that used to wait upon you at dinner in general? I never used to let the livery servants come into the room, very seldom or never, the butler in general; the other servants used to bring the tray to the door; but she has been seen in the drawing-room by the maid servants, as well as the other men and the butler.
§ Had you a footboy of the name of Samuel Carter? Yes, I had; but col. Wardle told me he would not mention that.
§ Stale whether Samuel Carter was in livery or not? No, he never wore livery.
§ Did he attend your carriage when you went out? Sometimes, if I had no servant in the way; but I liked to spare him as much as I could.610
§ But he was in the habit of wailing at dinner upon the D. of Y., yourself, and Miss Taylor? Yes, he was.
§ He constantly waited at dinner during the period he was in your service? Yes.
§ How long was he in your service? I should think about a twelvemonth, not all that time in Gloucester-place.
§ Where did he live before he came to you? With captain Sutton.
§ As his footboy, or in what capacity? Captain Sutton was lame, and he was every thing to him.
§ At Gloucester-place did he do the work jointly with the other footmen? Yes.
§ Was he perfectly well known to b. r. h. the Commander in Chief? Yes, he was.
§ What is become of him? He is in the West Indies.
§ Did you get him a commission in the Army? Yes, I did.
§ In what regiment did you get him a commission? Where he is now, in the 16th Foot; I think he is one of the Staff.
§ (By Mr. Herbert.)
§ Do you know why the D. of Y. withdrew his protection from you? Mr. Adam states that was in consequence of my pleading my marriage to a bill of 130l.; but I can prove the contrary to that, as I had done it once before, and he knew it; and the man had sent threatening letters to him, and to the whole of h. r. h.'s family; his name is Charman, a silversmith in St. James's-street; I have my own opinion of the separation.
§ Did h. r. h. assign any reason for it? No, he did not; but I guess the reason.
§ Was it on account of your interferences in military promotions? No, it was what Mr. Adam stated, upon money matters; but not that one of the bill.
§ You stated, that you bad been frequently conversant in military promotions, and sometimes successfully; can you confidently state, and risk your veracity upon it, that the D. of V. was ever privy to one or more of those transactions? To the whole.
§ (By the Attorney General.)
§ Do yon mean to state, that you did not rev present that Mr. Dowler was your husband, when you were at Hampstead? No, I did not represent.
§ Do you mean to state, that you did not say that Mr. Dowler was your husband? I might have said so very possibly, but never serious, because they must have known better, whoever I said it to.
§ Did you or did you not ever say, that Mr. Dowler was your husband? I think it is very possible I did say so, in the manner I have stated.
§ Do not you know that you did say that Mr. D. was your husband r No, I do not.
§ Did you not assign a reason for keeping your marriage with him secret? I do not re- 611 collect that I did; I could only have said it to some one who was very intimate with me, and knew all about me, and could have no view in it.
§ Was Mr. Dowler ever in the same house with yon at Hampstead? Yes, he was very frequently, during the time he was in England.
§ Did he sleep in the same house? Yes, he did, several times, but not with me.
§ Had Mr. Dowler any acquaintance with any person in the house, except yourself? There was no one there except myself and my children, and a French young lady, and capt. Thompson.
§ In whose house were you at that time? Mr. Nichols's house.
§ Do you mean to say, that during the time you resided in Gloucester place, a part of the expences of the establishment were not defrayed by the Duke, besides the allowance that he paid to you? I have stated all I can recollect.
§ Do you mean to say that none of the bills for the constant expences were paid by h. r. h.? Yes, I do.
§ Did not h. r. h. pay for the furniture of the house? I did not mean to that, I understood constant expences; I do not put the furniture as constant expences.
§ Did not the Duke pay for the furniture? Yes, all of it except the glass; I believe that cost me 4 or 500l. The chandeliers, those I paid for myself.
§ Did not It. r. h. pay for the wine? He sent in a great deal of wine, hut I bought wine myself; I kept a great deal of company, and a great deal was drank.
§ Do you mean to say that a chief part of the expences for wine was not defrayed by h. r. h.? H. r. h. sent in wine, but it never was enough; I purchased wine myself, both Claret and Madeira; and even that he did send in, he used to scold very much that it went too fast.
§ To whom did you apply for the Commission for Sam. Carter in the 10th regiment? To h. r. h.
§ Did you apply to h. r. h. for a Commission for Sam. Carter in the name of Samuel Carter? Yes; it was his real name.
§ Is it the name in which he is gazetted? Yes.
§ Was that it the name he was usually called in your family, and even to h. r. h. the Commander in Chief? Yes, it was.
§ Was h. r. h. aware tint it was the same person who had occasionally waited upon him at your table, for whom you asked that Commission? Yes, he was.
§ Was he recommended by any body beside yourself? No; I suppose it is in the office; some one has recommended him.
§ What interval elapsed from the time Carter was in your service till he obtained the commission? I should think be was living with me near a twelvemonth altogether, not entirely in Gloucester-place hut in Tavistock-place likewise.
§ Did he go immediately from your service into the army? Yes, he did.612
§ Did h. r. h. see Samuel Carter subsequent to his being gazetted? Yes, he did.
§ (By Sir J. Sebright.)
§ Did he speak to Samuel Carter on the subject of his having a Commission, either before or after he obtained the Commission? I do not know what h. r. h. said to him; but he saw him after he had been down to the Isle of Wight, and joined the depot; he came up to me for some money, and h. r. h. saw him in Gloucester-place.
§ Is Samuel Carter any relation of yours? No, not at all.
§ (By Mr. Yorke.)
§ What part of the time did Carter live with you in Gloucester-place? I should think five or six months; I cannot exactly say, but I know he lived with me many months.
§ At the time Miss Taylor was dining so constantly with you as you represent, was Peirson your butler? He waited upon her while he was there, and the other also: Sam. Carter has been waiting while she has been with us, and another butler, who has left me.
§ You have stated, that Samuel Carter was a boy; what age was he when he got his Commission? I called him a boy, because he was short; I believe he was eighteen or nineteen, of a proper age for the Commission.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
§ WILLIAM ADAM, esq. attending in his place, was examined.
§ (By Mr. Churles Adams.)
§ It appears that an annuity of 400l. a year was to he paid conditionally to Mrs. C.; were you consulted by the D. of Y. whether that annuity should or not be paid? I have already stated all I know respecting that annuity, and if the hon. gent. will refer to the evidence I have given, he will find that I know nothing about the payment of, the annuity.
§ (By Sir James Hall.)
§ Do you confirm the statement made by Mrs. C. that she had an allowance of only 1,000l., a year? If the worthy baronet will take the trouble to peruse the evidence I have already given, he will find it is perfectly inconsistent with any account I have given that I could possibly answer that question, because I am totally ignorant, as I have already said, of all payments made by the D. of Y. except those which fell under my cognizance as trustee.
§ [The Chairman was directed to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.]