§ Mr. Wardle
moved the order of the day for the house to resolve itself into a committee for further inquiry into the Conduct of h. r. h. the Duke of York.
wished, previously to the house resolving into a committee, to explain the grounds of his recommendation, on a former night, that a witness should be detained in the custody of the Serjeant at Arms, to prevent communication with other witnesses already examined, or to be examined, on a subject of so much importance. The right hon. the Speaker had, on that occasion, given his opinion upon the subject, in opposition to what he felt it his own duty to propose; and he now thought the house acted wisely in following that opinion. What he himself had proposed he conceived to be founded on parliamentary usage, although he then spoke generally, without being able at the moment to refer to particular precedents. He had since, however, made more minute research; and although gentlemen seemed before to think he recommended some- 440 thing which was novel in parliamentary proceeding upon such cases, he was now enabled to refer them to precedents upon the Journals of the house, and in times to which the house had been in the habit of looking up with veneration; namely, those shortly subsequent to the Brunswick accession. He then moved, that the clerk might refer to the lath vol. of the Journals, and the proceedings which took place from the 9th to the 17th June 1715, from which it appeared, that the house, on the representation of Mr. Walpole, chairman of a secret committee then sitting, had deemed it proper to order that Matthew Prior, esq. should be taken into close custody of the Serjeant at Arms, and there detained during the pleasure of the house, in order to prevent him from withdrawing himself, and to secure his evidence before the secret committee, touching the matters then under inquiry. And the said Matthew Prior having refused to be examined before the said secret committee, he was ordered to be detained in close custody; and a Petition having been presented by Mr. Prior to the house, complaining of the hardships of such detention, no order was made upon it until the 20th of Sept. following. The next precedent to which he would refer the house for proof of what their ancestors had done in similar cases, was in the 21st vol. of the Journals, on 15th Feb. 1731, when the house had ordered a number of persons to be taken into close custody, who, it was apprehended, were about to withdraw themselves from giving testimony. The necessity of such proceedings, however, must always depend upon circumstances: the house must in its own discretion judge whether, under those of the present case, it was eligible to follow the precedents he had stated: at all events, he hoped he had shewn that his proposition was not unparliamentary.
could not accede to such a doctrine, as that the communication between witnesses, either before or after examination at the bar of that house, was to invalidate their testimony. It must be quite impossible to prevent such communication from taking place between persons desirous of giving the fairest evidence. And if the right hon. gent. meant, iii the course of this inquiry, to found any proceeding upon the precedents he had quoted, he (lord F.) trusted no such proceeding would be adopted, without giving the house time to search more minutely for further precedents.
§ Mr. Sheridan
rose, and observed, that in consequence of some interrogatories put on a former night by an hon. member to Mr. Corri, one of tile witnesses examined before the committee, in order to know whether Mr. Finnerty was one of the persons to whom he alluded as present with him at Mrs. C. 's house, an idea had gone forth that Mr. F. was the person. He had himself, however, since Tuesday night received the most positive assurances that Mr. F. was not the person, nor had he any concern whatever in these transactions. With regard to Mr. F. himself, he was at present under prosecution by the Attorney-General for a libel against the D. of Y., and he felt that such an idea going forth to the public as that he was the person alluded to by Mr. Corri in his evidence, would be extremely prejudicial to him on his trial. He was therefore extremely desirous to remove such an idea, and to prove to the house that he was not the. person. He now held in his hand a Petition from Mr. Finnerty, which he would beg leave to present to the house. The Petition was received and read as follows:
'To the Honourable the House of Commons of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled.
'The humble Petition of Peter Finnerty, of Clement's Inn, gent. sheweth, That your Petitioner has heard with surprise and regret, that in the course of the ex animation now carrying on before the hon. house, relative to h. r. h. the Commander in Chief, his name has been frequently introduced, and that questions have been put, implying suspicions which may produce an impression injurious to him, upon a prosecution instituted against him, by his majesty's Attorney-General, and which is expected to be very shortly brought to trial. Your Petitioner, there fore, thinks it necessary to state to the hon. house, that he is perfectly ready and willing to appear at the bar, and to answer any questions that may be put to him. As the Petitioner has never been engaged in any transaction which he should shrink from avowing, he begs to assure the hon. house, that his answers shall be frank, full, and explicit. And the Petitioner shall ever pray, &c.'
§ On the motion of Mr. Sheridan it was ordered to he on the table.—The house then went into the Committee.442
§ W. S. BOURNE, Esq. attending in his place, made die following Statement:
§ I stated on a former night, that I bad never seen the witness, Mr. Dowler, and that I did not recollect that he had ever been recommended to Mr. Pitt through me; but that if such recommendation had taken place, I should probably be able to find a memorandum of it: I have since searched for such a memorandum, but I can find no trace of his having been so recommended.
§ WM. HUSKISSON, Esq. attending in his place, made the following Statement:
§ I stated on the former evening, that I had no knowledge of Mr. Dowler, nor no recollection of ever having seen him, or his having been recommended through me to Mr. Pitt. I certainly have now no recollection of any circumstance I had not then; in consequence of what I stated to the committee, that I should make an inquiry, I proceeded, in the first instance, to cause a careful search to be made at the treasury, whether among the muniments of that department there was any paper to be found, or any trace of a recommendation of this gentleman; the result of that search was, that there was no such document in the treasury. I then sent to the present commissary general, Mr. Coffin, and I desired Mr. Coffin to examine all the books of the late sir Brook Watson, and all the papers which, in the course of office, when he succeeded sir B. Watson, had been placed in his care; I also desired the person who had sir B, Watson's private papers, his executor, to examine such papers as were in their possession; they have not been able to find, either in the public records of the commissariat department, or among his private papers, any trace of a recommendation by him, either official or private, of Mr. Dowler, to the situation he now holds; the only mention made of Mr. Dowler in the hooks of this department is what I shall state presently. Having failed in this quarter. I applied to Mr. Adams, Mr. Pitt's private secretary at the time he was appointed, for any information he might possess, or any recollection he might have upon the subject. Mr. Adams had not the least recollection, as he stated and is ready to state in evidence if he is called, of any recommendation of Mr. Dowler; he states, that with respect to all private papers of Mr. Pitt, and any memorandum which might have been kept of persons who had been recommended to him for appointments, whether those appointments bad been conferred or not, they were in the possession of the bp. of Lincoln, as his executor. Mr. Adams went yesterday to the town residence of the bp. of Lincoln, the bishop is at Buckden, and therefore he could not obtain any information there; but Mr. Adams stated to me, that before the papers of the late Mr. Pitt were removed from Downing-street to the bishop's, all those which did not appear to be of any importance, but merely of indifference, were destroyed. Whether any 443 memorandum of this nature were or were nor, I must leave the committee to form an opinion. I also inquired of every gentleman in the treasury, at that time, as to any knowledge they might have respecting the manner in which Mr. Dowler had been recommended; none of those, whom I have seen, profess to have any knowledge of the quarter from which he was recommended. Under these circumstances, it may perhaps he necessary to state, if the committee wishes fur any further light I can throw upon this subject, that I find upon the 29th March 1805, sir B. Watson, then commissary general applied officially to the treasury by a letter, which I hold in my hand, that three additional assistant commissaries should be appointed. If it is necessary I will read the letter. On the 5th June 1805, sir B. Watson writes again to the treasury, requesting that live additional commissaries may be appointed. But I must, here observe, that by the content of the letter of the 5th of June, it appears, that his request of the 29th of March had not then been attended to; no appointments had taken place in consequence of the former letter; that would be, therefore, five in the whole; and he presses their immediate appointment. On the 6th July, he stated the necessity of one more, in consequence of one being in ill health. In consequence of these requisitions of sir B. Watson, it appears, that on the 15th June I was directed by the lords of the treasury to write a letter to the comptrollers of army accounts. This is the first trace I can find of Mr. Dowler. This letter it may be necessary, perhaps, I should read to the committee.
§ [Mr. Huskisson read the letter.]
§ "Treasury Chambers, June 15th, 1805."
§ "Gentlemen; The lords commissioners of his majesty's treasury intending to recommend to his majesty, William Dowler, gentleman, for the situation of assistant commissary on the home establishment, if he shall be found properly qualified for that service; I am commanded by my lords, to desire you will accordingly examine into his fitness and sufficiency, and report to this board, the result of such enquiry. I am, &c. WM. HUSKISSON."
§ "Comp. Army Accounts."
§ With respect to appointments of this nature, none are made without referring to the comptrollers of army accounts, to examine into the fitness of the person; it therefore becomes necessary, in case my colleague or myself were directed to prepare a commission for such a person, to put him into this course of examination, as preliminary to granting him such an appointment. In consequence of this reference to the comptrollers, a report was received from them, which it may be also necessary to read: this report was on the 3d of July.
§ [Mr. Huskisson read the letter.]
§ (No. 175.) Comptroller's Office, 3d July 1805.
§ "My lords; Mr. Huskisson having by his "letter of the 15th ultimo, signified to us 444 "your lordships commands, that we should examine into the fitness and sufficiency of Mr. Win. Dowler for the situation of assistant commissary on the home establishment, and report to your lordships the resuit of such inquiry; We have been attended by Mr. Dowler; and having proposed such questions as we conceived necessary for him to answer in writing, we report to your lordships that, in answer to our questions, Mr. Dowler slates himself to be 32 years of age, born in the parish of St. Clement Danes, London.—That he has not hitherto served in any commissariat, but that he received a commercial education at Mr. Eaton's in Tower-street, and for 16 years had the management of his father's compling-house, till he retired from business; that he understands French and Latin; that he is conversant in arithmetic in general, including fractions; that not having served in the commissariat, he cannot say that he is acquainted with the forms of returns and vouchers, or the method of keeping and making up commissariat accounts for cash and stores: But as he has received a commercial education, and perfectly conversant in mercantile accounts, we are of opinion, that your lordships may with propriety recommend Mr. Wm. Dowler to his majesty, for the situation of assistant commissary. We have the honour, &c JOHN MARTIX LEAKE.
§ "Rt. hon. lords comm. of J. ERSKINE."
§ "his majesty's Treasury."
§ Indorsed: "(175.)—3d July, 1805.—Compt. army accounts.—On the fitness and sufficiency of Mr. Wm. Dowler for the situation of an assistant commissary on the home establishment.—No. 3,730.—Received 4th July, 1805.—Head 5th July, 1805.—Give the necessary directions for the appointment.—Cipriani."
§ In consequence of this report from the Comptrollers, a letter was written to the Secretary at War, desiring him to lay before his majesty a commission for the appointment of Mr. Dowler to be an assistant commissary on the home establishment. And here it may be necessary for me to state the course of proceeding in that respect; it is indeed inconsequence of some question t put to the witness. If a person is appointed a commissary on the home establishment, no commission issues from the treasury, but merely a letter to the Secretary at war, desiring he would submit a commission to his majesty: if it is necessary to send him upon foreign service, then he gets a treasury commission, which treasury commission entitles him (as the witness states he had received) to 5s. additional pay in consequence of going on foreign service. The first commission then issued from the treasury to Mr. Dowler, was when he went on foreign service to South America, and is dated the 1st Nov. 1806; that commission is still at the treasury, Mr. Dowler never having called for it nor taken it out.445
On the 27th July, I find a Letter* from my then colleague, Mr. Bourne, stating to the commissary general that Mr. Dowler had been appointed an assistant commissary: this is all I can trace in the Treasury or in the other departments respecting this appointment. It may not be improper I should state to the committee, that I do find that, in consequence Of the requisition of the commissary general for this addition of five commissaries, made in; June, there were appointed on the 18th June a Mr. Stokes, on the same day a Mr. Green, on the 10th July Mr. Win. Dowler, on the 25th Mr. Rd. Hill, and on the 26th Mr. C. Pratt. It is not within my recollection at this moment, upon what recommendation or through whose application any one of those persons was appointed; indeed, on looking over the list of the whole of the commissaries appointed during Mr. Pitt's last administration, amounting to 17 or 18, I find but two of whom I have any recollection; whether I shall he able to find by the recollection of others who recommended them, I cannot say. I will only state further, that I am satisfied the channel through which he was recommended, whatever it may be, was one that did not give rise to any suspicion in any body connected with the Treasury at that time, that there was any improper influence employed; and I can state that confidently for this reason, that it is the rule of the Treasury, if they have any reason to apprehend any such transaction, to direct the comptrollers to whom they refer the parties (and the comptrollers have a power) to examine upon oath as to such a fact. I could produce proof, if that is necessary, of such an enquiry being directed within these six months as to a person in the commissariat. I merely state this, because not finding any reference to such an enquiry being directed, I am sure that no suspicion of any such circumstance was in the mind of any person connected with the Treasury. I have no recollection, nor do I know even now, of my own knowledge, through what quarter Air. Man by was recommended. I have learned from a right hon. friend of mine, who was then one of the lords of the Treasury, that he was the person applied to, to mention Mr. Manby to Mr. Pitt. If I had been able to trace in the same manner respecting this gentleman, I would have informed the committee.
Treasury Chambers, July 27th, 1805. Sir; I am commanded by the lords commissioners of his majesty's Treasury to acquaint you, that they have directed the secretary at war to submit a warrant to his majesty for appointing William Dowler, esq. to be an assistant commissary of stores and provisions to the forces, from the 10th instant, at the rate of 15s. a day. I am, &c.
W. S. BOURSE.
Comm. gen. sir Brook Watson,
§ On the motion of Mr. Wardle, Mrs. Clarke was then ordered to be called in.
§ Some time elapsed before the witness appeared; and when she did present herself, she appeared greatly agitated and much distressed. A cry of chair! a chair! resounded from different parts of the house, when the Chairman ordered a chair to be brought for the accommodation of the witness, and signified to her, that she had the permission of the committee to be seated.
§ Mrs. MARY ANNE CLARKE was then examined.
§ (By Mr. Wardle).
§ Did you know col. French?
§ Here again some delay took place, when it was obvious that the agitation of the witness prevented her from giving an answer; and that her distress had arisen from some occurrence previous to her appearance at the bar. The Chairman, in consequence, made the following observation to her: 'If the witness has any complaint to make of ill usage, the committee will hear it.'
I have been very much insulted. I knew I should be protected when I sent for the proper gentleman. I sent for the Serjeant at arms to conduct me in: it was before I got into the lobby.
Did you know col. French? Yes, I did.
Do you recollect whether he applied to you in 1804, to use your influence with the Commander in Chief, to have a levy of men for the army? He applied to me, but I cannot recollect the year.
Do you recollect that he applied to you to use your influence with the Commander in Chief, to have a levy of men for the tinny? Yes, I do.
Do you recollect if col. French offered you any pecuniary advantages for using your influence? Yes, I do; or I should not have mentioned his name.
Do you recollect what those offers were? No, I do not.
Do you recollect any part of the offer that col. French made? I have seen all the papers; but if I was to be guided by them, I should not guess nearer the thing itself than from my own memory; I cannot recollect the time for the conditions.
Do you recollect that col. French entered into any conditions with you? Yes, I do.
Did those conditions imply, that you were to receive a pecuniary reward for your influence with the Commander in Chief? Certainly.
Did you, in consequence of this, apply to the Commander in Chief, and request that col. French might be allowed to have a levy? Certainly.
447 Did you state to the Commander in Chief, that you were to have any pecuniary advantages if col. French was allowed to have a levy? Yes. certainly.
Did the Commander in Chief promise yon, after such application, that col. French should have a levy? Yes, he did.
Did you, in consequence of col. French having such levy, receive any sums of money from him or any other person on that account? Yes.
Can you state any particular sums that were paid to you on that account, and by whom? I recollect having one sum, but I cannot tell whether it was col. French or capt. Sandon, of 500 guineas, bank notes, making up the sum of guineas: and I paid 500l. of it on account to Birkett, for a service of plate and h. r. h. paid the remainder by his own bills; I fancy h. r. h. told me so.
Do you recollect any other sum or sums that you received? Yes, but I cannot speak to the amount of them. I fancy that Mr. Dowler was by, when I received the money I paid for the plate.
Do you recollect that either col. French or capt. Sandon applied to you to prevail upon the Commander in Chief, to make any alterations from the original terms of the levy? They teased me every day, and I always told b. r. h., or gave him col. French's notes; but I cannot tell what it was about, for I never gave myself the trouble to read them. I was not aware of what they always asked me or wanted, but h. r. h. always understood it, I believe.
Do you recollect, that during the progress of the levy, any loan was to have been made to the Commander in Chief, by col. French? No, no loan by col. French.
Do you recollect that any loan was to have been made to the Commander in Chief, arising out of the levy, or connected with the levy? Col. French told me, that if h. r. h. would pass the accounts which had been some time standing, and which col. French and his agent had every reason to expect to have been passed he fore, and which were all very correct, he would accommodate him with 5,000l., upon proper security being given, at the regular interest.
Did you speak to the Commander in Chief upon this subject? Yes, I did.
State what further you know upon that point. I believe that h. r. h. applied as far as was proper in him, and he could not command the money from the different offices, or the office where it was to be paid, and the thing dropped; he has no business whatever with money, and perhaps he was rather delicate on that subject of pressing, when he expected to receive the 5,000l. on loan, and where it might be publicly known afterwards.
§ (By Mr. Croker.)
§ How often have you seen Mr. Dowler since he arrived in England? Once, and the other night, till he was called in here; I have not seen him since.448
§ Then you have seen Mr. Dowler but twice since his arrival in England? Certainly not.
§ Did you inform col. Wardle of the details of the transaction relating to col. French's levy? Yes, I did of some part; of the best part, but not of all that Mr. Dowler has mentioned, by what I saw by the papers; I have had no communication by note or otherwise with him, or any one connected with this business, since I left the house the other night; I have only seen two men since; gen. Clavering has called twice to-day, begging that he might not be brought forward, but I would not see him; and another gentleman, whose name I will mention hereafter, and what he came upon.
§ How long have you been acquainted with Mr. Dowler? As I have seen the papers, it is almost useless to ask me that, because I might agree with him.
§ How long have you been acquainted with Mr. Dowler? 8, 9, or 10 years; I cannot say which.
§ Have you not at various times received sums of money from Mr. Dowler? Some few sums.
§ Can you recollect the particulars of any of the sums, or the amount of the whole, which you may have received from Mr. Dowler? I can speak particularly as to receiving 1,000l. for his situation.
§ Was that 1,000l. which you received for his situation, the last sum of money you received from Mr. Dowler? No.
§ Was it the first you had ever received from Mr. Dowler? I cannot speak particularly as to that.
§ Do you owe Mr. Dowler any money? I never recollect my debts to gentlemen. (A loud laugh.)
§ Do you owe Mr. Dowler any money? I do not recollect, nor can recognize any debt to him.
§ Have you not frequently recognized debts to Mr. Dowler, and promised to have them paid? I only recollect one, where I had two or three carriages seized in execution, or something; I had nothing to go out of town in to Wey bridge; I sent a note to Mr. Dowler's lodgings, and begged he would buy or procure me a carriage immediately; he did so in a few hours, and I told him h. r. h. would pay him hereafter for it; h. r. h. told me that he would do so for it, or he would recollect him in some way.
§ Did you inform Mr. Dowler of that answer of h. r. h.? Yes, I did.
§ Are you positive of that? O, quite so.
§ Try to recollect yourself, and answer positively, whether you w ere not in the habit of receiving money from Mr. Dowler prior to the money given for his appointment? I am perfectly collected at present, and I cannot recollect any thing of that sort ever happening. I am very equal to answer any thing now which is asked me by this honourable house.
§ Do you recollect seeing Mr. Corri at your house on the 6th of January last? I have seen him twice at my house.
§ In the month of January? I cannot recollect the month; it is not long since.449
§ What other persons were at your house on the first occasion you saw Mr. Corri? I found Mr. Corri at my house one day, in consequence of a note I had, sent to him to procure me a box at the Opera, to treat with my lawyer Mr. Commrie, about one; it was very near dinnertime when I found him there; I could not do less than ask him to dine with me; and afterwards he went up into the drawing-room; there was a gentleman, who was a relation of mine, who dined with us, and some young ladies.
§ Were that gentleman and these young ladies the only persons with whom Mr. Corri was in company at your house on that day? I believe one or two came in, in the course of the evening.
§ Who were the one or two? I do not at this moment recollect; if you will ask me exactly their names, and make the question pointed, I will answer it; they were my friends, no doubt; but I believe only one came in.
§ Who was that one? A friend.
§ What was his name? If you will tell me his name, I will tell you whether it was him or not. [The Chairman informed the Witness that she must answer the question.] It was col. Wardle.
§ Was col. Wardle the only other person that came that evening? And my relation.
§ Do you recollect having received a second visit from Mr. Corri at your house, some short time after this? Yes; he brought two boys to sing to me.
§ Stale the names of all the men who met Mr. Corri at your house that evening? If I did so, I should not have a decent man call on me (luring the whole of this time. [The Chairman informed the Witness she must answer the question.] Am I obliged to answer this question? if I am, I do not wish to shelter myself.
§ [The Chairman informed the Witness, that it was her duty to answer the questions proposed to her.] Must I, without appealing to you? [Chairman.—If any improper questions are proposed, the Committee will take notice of them, and prevent their being put.] No one has yet done that to me.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.
§ Mr. Whitbread
then stated, that it was the duty of the Chairman to inform the witness, that she had a right to appeal to the Chair, if any question should he put to her which she might think improper to be answered. He therefore moved that (he Chairman he instructed to make that Communication to the witness on her being called in again.
§ Mr. Croker
observed, that the question had already been thrice put to the witness, and twice approved of, and the answer to it pressed by the Chair.
§ Mr. Whitbread,
notwithstanding the witness's manner of giving her evidence, and 450 setting her character and conduct out of the question, was still of opinion, that, be she who she might, she was entitled to the protection of the committee; and he must say, that, from the course of questions which the hon. member was putting to her, he thought it very likely that some of them would be such as one would be unwilling to answer, and might be improper to be pressed. He therefore thought that the Chairman should be instructed to inform the witness, on her being called in, that she had a right to appeal to the Chair, if any question should be put to her which she might be unwilling to answer.
§ Mr. Croker
bad carefully confined his examination to two distinct points already before the house, and upon which the house seemed extremely anxious to obtain information; and there could be no stronger ground for pressing the question, in order to ascertain who had been at the witness's house on the occasion, than the petition that day presented from a person who was anxious to shew that he had not been there.
§ Sir T. Turton
informed the hon. member that he had mistaken the object of the hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread), if he supposed that he had any intention to justify the witness. His sole object, was to procure for her that protection, which, in any court of justice, would be afforded to a witness, and without which a witness at the bar of that house would be in a miserable situation.
said, he would always be obliged to the committee for instructing him in his duty; but as the question when put had not been objected to, he was bound to suppose that it was a proper one to be pressed. He wished to be instructed by the committee, whether he was to tell the witness, when called in, that she might appeal to the Chair.
§ Mr. Wardle
wished the hon. gent. in order to save the witness the pain that must arise from the course of examination he was pursuing, to name the person whose presence at the house of the witness he wished to ascertain from her own testimony. The hon. gent. must be aware, how easy it was to put the feelings of a witness, in such a situation, to the most painful trial.
§ Mr. Fuller
declared, that he agreed most perfectly in the feelings of the hon. gent and that protection ought to be extended to the witness. It was impossible to foresee what mischief might arise from press- 451 ing such questions, if it should appear that a number of married men had been present.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was of opinion, that the witness, on being brought back to the bar, should be informed, that she must give a direct answer to the questions that should he put to her, but that she might appeal to the Chair.
§ Mr. Windham
concurred in the course proposed by the right hon. gent. Undoubtedly, no man but the hon. gent. could know what purpose he had in view, but he recommended to him to consider, whether this course of examination was necessary. The committee would sec the great inconvenience that might result from it, according to the observation of the hon. gent. (Mr. Fuller), which was not heard with as much attention as the justice of it merited. This course of examination appeared to him not as questions applying to the witness, but to those who had been present at her house on the occasion. Again he would recommend to the hon. gent. to consider whether his course of examination was such as ought to be pursued.
§ Mr. Croker
said, he would pursue the course of examination he had begun, as he could not conceive it improper to ask the names of persons exhibited at Mrs. Clarke's before a music master and his two boys.
§ (The witness was again called in, and was informed by the Chairman, that if any question should be put, which she thought improper to he answered, she was at liberty to appeal to the Chairman, whether that question should he answered or not; and that with respect to the last question put to her, the Committee expected that she should answer that directly or positively.]
§ State the names of ah the men who met Mr. Corri at your house that evening.—Capt Thomson, col. Wardle, and a newspaper man, whose name I really do not recollect; I never saw him but twice before; but he answered exactly to the description I read in the paper, as given by Mr. Corn; I shall know it to-morrow; it begins with Mac.
§ Was the name Macallum? Yes.
§ Did you represent any of those persons to Mr. Corri, under a false name? No, I told him one was a member, which was very true.
§ You did not tell him that it was Mr. Mellish, a member? No, it was his own mistake.
§ Which of the three persons was it, that you introduced to Mr. Corri, and represented as a member? Mr. Wardle.
§ Do you recollect in what sums you received the 1,000l. that Mr. Dowler gave you for his place? Perfectly well.452
§ State them.—200l. first, and 800l. afterwards, in one sum, which his father came up to town to sell out of the funds.
§ Was not that 200l. paid to you before the appointment had been obtained? A few days.
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ You have stated, that yon do not accurately recollect how long you have been acquainted with Mr. Dowler, whether 8 or 9, or 10 years? Exactly so.
§ Cannot you recollect whether it was 8 or 10 years? No, I do not think I can.
§ Were you acquainted with Mr. D. before you lived in Gloucester-place? Yes, I was, some years.
§ Were you acquainted with him before you lived in Tavistock-place? Yes, I was.
§ Did you never receive any money from Mr. D. while you were living in Tavistock-place? No.
§ Do you recollect your ever having received any money, before you received the 200l. part of the 1,000l. from Mr. D.? No, I do not recollect that I had.
§ Do you recollect having received any money since the 1,000l. except the money for the carriage? I think once or twice I have, speaking from my recollection.
§ Did you receive the money for the carriage, or did he pay for the carriage? He paid for it, and he sent the carriage in within the space of two hours. He bought it of a col. Shipley.
§ Did he pay for it? Yes, certainly.
§ He did not give you the money to pay for it, but paid for it himself? Yes.
§ Do you recollect any oilier sums of money you received from him subsequent to that respecting the carriage? Only the other two sums of 800l. and 200l.
§ Were they before the carriage or afterwards? Before.
§ Then are those the only three instances of your receiving money from Mr. D. the 200l. and 800l. and the money for the carriage? I cannot speak to any exact sum, but I think he has once or twice paid something for me to my housekeeper; when she has told him something that was distressing, he has given her money to pay for things, when h. r. h. was not in the way; it has not come to my knowledge sometimes for a week afterwards; but those were marked things, the other things.
§ Was Mr. D. in the habit of seeing you very frequently? Not very frequently, but when he had lodgings in London; about the time of col. French's levy be was.
§ Did you see Mr. D. after he came from examination at this bar, the last night of examination? Not the last time he was examined, but before.
§ Upon his retiring from the bar? Never since.
§ After his first examination here? Yes, I did.
§ Did any thing pass between you and Mr. D. respecting his examination, when he returned? Certainly not about money concerns; he only mentioned to some gentlemen who were 453 present, the conduct of one or two of the members, who he thought harassed him very much, and put questions very distressing to his feelings on private occurrences, that had nothing to do with the question pending; it was a Mr. Bootle he was speaking of: that he would rather give (I think his expression was) every guinea he was worth, than he brought before such a place again.
§ Did he state what he had been examined to? He said he had been examined closely to his private concerns, he did not speak of any thing else; it was not to me, it was to this gentleman, a stranger, one of the members.
§ Did you ask him what he had been examined to, or make any observations as to what had passed? I asked him who had examined him.
§ But not what he had been examined to? No.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ How long have you been acquainted with the D. of Y.? I believe it was 1803 when he first took me under his protection.
§ Were you acquainted with the D. of Y. before that period? Yes, I was.
§ At that period he took yon more immediately under his protection; had you an establishment from that time? No, I think it was from 1804 to 1806, that the establishment commenced only in Gloucester-place; we were in Park-lane before, in a furnished house.
§ Had you any establishment of horses and carriages in Park-lane? Only what belonged to myself.
§ What number of carriages had you when you lived in Gloucester-place? I always had two.
§ What number of horses? About six; sometimes eight.
§ What number of men-servants? I do not know, without I went over it.
§ State the servants you had.—There was butler, coachman, postillion, groom, mostly a man cook, a gardener, and two footmen; from Seven to nine, I do not know exactly.
§ To whom did the house in which you lived, belong? To the Duke.
§ Who paid the expences of the establishment? I did.
§ What allowance did you receive from the D. of Y. for that purpose? H. r. h. promised me 1,000l. to be paid monthly, but sometimes he could not make the payments good, which was the occasion of many distressing circumstances happening.
§ Was it on the bare promise of 1000l. a year, that you mounted such an establishment as you have mentioned, and with the expectation of no other means of defraying it? H. r. h. did not tell me that he would give me till I was in it.
§ When was it that h. r. h. promised you 1,000l. a year? He began it by paying it to me.
§ How long did he continue to pay it regularly? Till almost the whole time that we were together in it; for three months before h. r. h. left me, he never gave me a guinea, though he was with me every day.454
§ How were the monthly payments made; by h. r. h. 's own hand, or by what other means? H. r. h. wished me to receive it from Greenwood; but I would not subject myself to that, although it would have been more punctually paid.
§ How did yon receive it? From h. r. h.
§ Did you ever receive more than at the rate of 1,000l. a-year from H. r. h.? H. r. h., if any thing unpleasant had happened, which was always happening, would Sometimes contrive to get a little more and tiring me.
§ Do you know what is the total amount of the sums you received from h. r. h. during the time you lived in Gloucester-place? Certainly not.
§ Were the sums you received from h. r. h. adequate to the payment of the expences of the establishment you kept up? I convinced h. r. h. that it did not more than pay the servants wages and their liveries.
§ Did you state that to h. r. h.? Many times.
§ What observation did he make in consequence? I do not know that he made any observations on that; but after we had been intimate for some lime, he told me, that if I was clever, I should never ask him for money.
§ Do you remember at what period it was that h. r. h. made that observation? No, I do not; but it was when he had great confidence in me.
§ Was it before you removed to Gloucester-place? Not till some time after.
§ Can you at all state what was the amount of the annual expence of your establishment? No.
§ Pretty nearly? Not the least; I cannot give a guess.
§ You stated in a former part of your examination, that you were going to Weybridge; had you a house at Weybridge? Yes.
§ Was that your house or the D. of Y. 's? It was the Duke's.
§ Had you a separate establishment there, or did the establishment move from Gloucester-place to Weybridge, and from Weybridge to Gloucester-place? There was a groom there I and a gardener, and two maids; the remainder of the servants waited on me when I went; I was never there but from Saturdays till Mon-I days, and I always took four more servants? with me, sometimes five.
§ Did the sums of money you received in the monthly payments, and by occasional payments from the D. of Y., nearly cover the expence of your establishment? If it had, I should never have been barrassed for money as I was during the whole time I was under his royal highness's protection.
§ Do you know a person of the name of W. Withers? Yes, I do.
§ What is he? He is a Sheriffs officer.
§ How came you acquainted with him? He had some business with me in his own way.
§ Did yon ever enter into an agreement with W. Withers, for participation in any sums of money which you might receive? Never, nor ever hinted at such a thing.
§ Do you recollect the first time you ever made application to the D. of Y. for any thing connected with Army Promotions? No, I do not; it was after I was in Gloucester-place.
§ Were the applications you had to exert your influence with the D. of Y., numerous? Very.
§ Were those applications universally attended to by you? Not always by me; if I thought they were not correct, nor proper to recommend, I mentioned it to h. r. h., and he told me who were proper and who were not; and then I could give my answer the next day, as from myself, whether I could listen to any thing or not; if they were improper, he told me to say I could not interfere, without saying that I had mentioned the matter to him.
§ Did you uniformly inform the D. of Y. of every application you had received? Yes and hundreds had been rejected but through his means, for I did not know who were proper or who were not.
§ When you have received applications, did you entirely trust to your memory, or did you record them on paper? If it was a single application I trusted to memory, and h. r. h. who has a very good one; but if there were many, I gave him a paper, not in my own writing.
§ Gave him what paper? Any paper that might have been handed to me.
§ Do you mean a List of the applications? I recollect once a List, a very long one, but only once.
§ Do you recollect how many names were upon that List? No, I do not.
§ Do you recollect when that List was existing? No, I do not; but I know that that must have been a little time before col. Tucker, who is lately dead, was made major Tucker; there were two brothers of them.
§ From what reason do you know that it must have been before col. Tucker was created a major; H. r. h. had promised that he should be in the Saturday's Gazette, and one day, coming to dinner a few days before, he told me Tucker had behaved very ill, for that Greenwood had him, and to inquire into it, for that he had come to play with me, and perhaps to make a talk: that he was not serious in the business. I inquired into it, and found it was so; and h. r. h. said that sir David Baird had recommended him. That was the answer that Greenwood gave to it. But when I gave h. r. h. that List, that is, when he took it, with the number of names upon it, he asked me what I meant by it; if I wanted those men promoted; and if I knew any of them or not. and who recommended them? I told him, I did not know any one, and that what I meant by it, being in his way, was for him to notice 456 them. He said that he would do it; that there were a great number of names, and that if I knew any thing at all of military business I must know it was totally impossible for him to do it all at once, but that he would do it by degrees; that every one should be noticed by degrees: and among those was captain Tucker.
§ Is that List in existence now? No, h. r. h. took it away with him that morning: and, from that moment, I knew in what way I might have his sanction to go on. I saw it some lime after in his private pocket-book.
§ Is that the only List that was ever made out by you? I did not make it out, some one gave it me; that was the longest List, and the only List that I recollect; I never gave him any other List, I am sure. There might have been two names down.
§ Were you in the habit of making out a List to refresh your own memory? No; their friends always took care of that.
§ Do you mean, that you used to receive the names of the applicants in writing? I have had letters, hundreds upon hundreds.
§ What do you mean by stating that their friends took care of that, in your last answer but one? They expected the thing should be done immediately, and used to tease me with letters.
§ Do you recollect any other names, except that of capt. Tucker, in the List you have referred to? I believe so, but I would not mention the name of any man who had behaved well to me, on any account. II. r. h. did not promote the whole of that List.
§ Your acquaintance with Wm. Withers, you have stated, was owing to some pecuniary embarrassments of yours; in what way were those embarrassments satisfied? I gave him two bills on my mother for 300l. each, and that satisfied those things; I never gave him any thing, nor spoke to him on any thing relating to military business.
§ (By Mr. Yorke.)
§ Do you recollect from whom you received the List you have spoken of? I think from capt. Sandon or Mr. Donovan; but Mr. Donovan is quite prepared to deny it.
§ Can you state positively whether you received it from capt. Sandon or Mr. Donovan? No, I cannot, they were connected in some way or other together.
§ (By Mr. Fuller.)
§ Have any questions been read to you by any individual whatever, as such questions as would be asked you in this house? No, never.
§ (By Sir George Warrander.)
§ You have mentioned having received various sums of money from Mr. Dowler, and in particular two sums of 200l. and 800l.; state upon what consideration those sums were received.—It was for Mr. Dowler's appointment, but previous to that he was not to have paid me money.457
§ To what appointment do you allude? In the commissariat; assistant commissary.
§ whom did you apply to for that appointment for Mr. Dowler? H. r. h.
§ From whom was it notified to you, that that appointment had been made? H. r. h.; he told me that he had spoken to Mr. Ch. Long upon it, and it was settled at last; that there had been some little difference in the Prince's regiment, that Mr. Manhy was obliged to leave it, and h. r. h. promised to the Prince of Wales to give something to Manby, and to seem very civil to him, he must gazette him before Mr. Dowler; but before Mr. Dowler proposed to give him the money for the situation, I fancy he was to have procured some Voles for the Defence Bill; I think it was something like that name; Mr. Pitt was very ill at the time, and I think it was something of that sort mentioned; however, Mr. Dowler could not bring forward the number of voters that I had given the List of to the Duke, 17 I think, and there were very few of them came; but I recollect I one gentleman, general Clavering got up from Scotland, lord John Campbell; and although lord Lorn would have voted with Mr. Pitt, and of course his brother would have gone the same way, (but he was not in London) still it was considered that it was a great favour bringing up lord John from Scotland; he was the only man that I recollect, and that was through my means; I had a few more friends besides, but it dropped. Mr. Dowler could not bring the men forwards, some of them were in the Opposition. H. r. h. told me he gave the list to Mr. Charles Long, and he was delighted with it. (Loud laughter).
§ You have used an expression relative to capt. Tucker, that Greenwood had him; explain what you meant by that expression.—I do not know, I never enquired further into it; I was very angry that the man should be only laughing with me; it was h. r. h. 's expression, not mine; but I am almost certain that capt. Sandon knows him, and about it, though perhaps he will not own to it.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ Were you in the habit of shewing to the Duke of York the letters which contained the applications to you for influence? Yes, I was; but I did not trouble him with all, not many, upon tin; same subject; if a man wrote one letter first, I might shew him that, but if he wrote me ten more, I might not trouble h. r. h. with those: they frequently used to call, and wait for answers while h. r. h. was there, though they did not pretend to know he was there.
§ Then if those letters contained an offer of money to you for the exertion of your influence, h. r. h. must have been aware of it? He Was aware of every thing that I did, but I never was very indelicate with him upon those points.
§ Did you shew to h. r. h. letters containing such offers, as well as letters that did not contain them? Yes, I did.458
§ (By Sir James Hall.)
§ On the first day of your examination, you stated, that a bill of 200l. which you received from Mr. Knight, was sent from your house to be changed by a servant of h. r. h.; how do you know it was taken by a servant of h. r. h. and not one of your own servants? I believe that I did not state that it was h. r. h.'s servant who took it, but that h. r. h. had something to do with the changing that note; and on Saturday or Monday morning, I do not recollect which it was, when it was raining very hard, I believe it was Monday, I heard where my butler lived, and I went into Yorkplace, and sent my footman to fetch him out; he came out, without previous knowledge of who called upon him, and I asked whether he recollected any thing particular the evening that h. r. h. was going to Weymouth, and myself in the morning to Worthing; he asked me to what point, I said about a Bank-note; he said, Perfectly well; he had been trying all over the neighbourhood to get change for a note, that it was a very large note, he supposed a 50l. note, that he came into the parlour and said he could not get change for it, and thru h. r. h. said, 'Do go to my wine-merchant's in Bond-street, Stephens's Hotel, and get change, and tell them where you come from;' that on this same night he had called at Byfield's, the confectioner's, and tried there, and they could not do it; and that he went and saw Stephens's partner; it being very late Stephens's was not there, that he got change for it there, and that was the whole. But I told him he must come and speak about it, that a summons would be sent to him, and would it hurt him with respect to his master and mistress, his being examined; and he told me they would not be angry, he supposed, for it was lady Wimerton's son he lived with, and he supposed lady Winterton would not be against it. I spoke to him the other night in the room, I do not know whether before he was examined or afterwards, and he told me that he had called at Stephens's in Bond-street, and that they would not give him any information about the note, which I believe he did not state in the house.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.
§ Mr. Wardle
then rose to state, that he had since seen Mr. Peirson, who said, that since he had given his testimony at the bar, he recollected perfectly that he had changed a large note, by the direction of the Duke of York and Mrs. Clarke. The note had been given him at night, and was not changed till the next morning. Upon his (Colonel Wardle's) asking him how it happened that he did not recollect that, when he was examined at the bar of the house, he answered, that he was subject to dreadful head-aches, and had one at the time he was examined. He did not then remember the wine-merchants in Bond- 459 street: but he now recollected it, and was very ready to be examined again at the bar, it" the committee should think proper.
§ [The Witness was again called in].
§ (By Sir T. Turton.)
§ You have stated, that you recommended Mr. Dowler to h. r. h). the D. of Y.; in what character did you represent him to the D. of Y.? As a gentleman.
§ Did you represent him as a friend or relation of your own? Never as a relation, as a friend.
§ In recommending him to the D. of Y., did you mention that you were to have any, and what sum, in case he was appointed to the commissariat? H. r. h. knew that I was to have a sum, for I told him that old Mr. Dowler had come up to sell it out of the funds.
§ Did you communicate, at the time, to the D. of Y., that you were to receive any, and what sum? I cannot exactly say to that; but I told h. r. I., that he would behave more liberally to me than any other person for the same appointment.
§ Are you quite sure of that? Quite.
§ Did you ever hear Mr. Dowler say that he was acquainted with sir Brook Watson, the commissary general? No further than that he knew him personally, or in the city; and I told h. r. h. of it, that Mr. Dowler knew a little of sir Brook, and he said, that is a very good thing; but I believe sir Brook is dead; and I cannot make use of the expression that h. r. h. then did about him.
§ Are you quite sure that Mr. Dowler did not represent to you, that he or his lather had some interest with sir Brook Watson? No, he never told me that he had particularly; he told me that sir Brook did not like him, for his father's way of voting, if I recollect right; I mean the city voting.
§ (By Mr. Lockhart.)
§ Did you ever receive a List of names for promotion from any other person than captain Huxley Sandon and Mr. Donovan? I never received such a long List from any one, nor such a List; I never received more than two or three names; this, I had for two or three days; it was pinned up at the head of my bed, and h. r. h. took it down.
§ If you received any List containing two or three names, from whom did you receive such List? It will be seen, by the witnesses that have already been examined, that there were a great many sorts of agents or people that used to come and ask me things about them, and I cannot recollect; and I believe I got into very bad hands, or it would never have been exposed as it is now.
§ Cannot you recollect the name of any one person who gave you a List? I have mentioned the name of capt. Sandon and Mr. Donovan; and there wat a lady with Mr. Donovan the 460 other night, in the room, which brought many things to my recollection, perhaps she can speak to something; she is an officer's widow, and, I believe, quite in the habit of military intrigue.
§ Did you ever circulate a List of Prices of Commissions? No, I never did; that did not belong to me, I never did it; I nave seen such a tiling, I saw it in Cobbett, but it is not true.
§ What is the name of the lady you have just mentioned, the officer's widow? She was with Mr. Donovan the other night; I used to see her very frequently; I have not seen her these three years; I do not recollect her name at present, I shall think of it presently, she is an Irish lady. I have received a Letter this instant, which has exceedingly interested me, begging me that I would not go on, or to that effect; but I would wish the gentlemen here to ask col. Mac Mahon, that my character may not appear so very black as it does at present; I would wish the house to inquire of Col. Mac Mahon, if he thought I made any improper propositions, or any thing unjust, to the D. of y. I wish them to ask only of col. Mac Mahon, what were my propositions to the D. of Y., and to inquire into all the particulars respecting the message of which be was the bearer; I am exceedingly sorry to expose him so.
Have you any objection to deliver in the Letter you have received? I have received one before; I will perhaps in a few days, but not to-night; I have hardly read it over.—[The Chairman informed the Witness, that it was the pleasure of the Committee that she should produce the Letter she had just received.]
§ When did you receive that Letter, where did you receive it, and from whom? I received it at this door.
§ On the outside of the door? This instant, when I went out.
§ From whom? I believe one of the Messengers.—[The Witness delivered in the letter, and it was read.]
§ "Westminster Hall,
§ Thursday night, 8 o'clock."
§ "Madam; I am most anxiously desirous to see you to-night. The lateness of the hour will be no difficulty with me. It is, I trust, quite unnecessary to observe, that business alone is my reason for expressing by this solicitude in so earnest a way; or that if you think a more unreserved communication might take place at Westbourne-place, I would be there at your own hour to-night. To what this particularly refers you may I have some guess, but it would be highly improper to glance at it upon paper. I will It liver this to one of the messengers, who will convey to me your answer; or if your feelings of all accord with mine, you will not perhaps think it too much trouble to write two notes, one to the care of the messenger who delivers this, the other addressed for me at 461 the Exchequer Coffee-House, Westminster-Hall. Believe me, Madam, Most sincerely your friend, "WM. WILLIAMS."
§ "P. S. I have tried two or three members to deliver this, but they are afraid some injurious suspicions might attach. I hope you will not attribute my hasty manner to negligence or disrespect."
§ (By the Attorney General.)
§ Is this the Letter that so much interested you? Yes, it is.
§ Is this the Letter that you desired you not to go is, from what occurred yesterday.
§ What do you allude to as having occurred yesterday? A letter came to me yesterday from the same gentleman, and I could not exactly make out what it was or what he meant by it; he said he had seen me at the play one night, in company with lord Lennox and sir Robert Peate, about two months since, and that be took the liberty of addessing a letter to me to grant him an interview; I sent down my servant to say I was at borne to him; this was the gentleman whom I alluded to as being the only one I had seen since I quitted this place. When he came into the drawing-room yesterday, he asked me whether there was. am one in the back room; I said upon my word and honour not; but I told him as my character now seemed so much hacked about with every one, I would open the door and convince him, which I did; he then bewail to question me how I felt towards the D. of Y., if I had any revenge, or it I had any wishes that h. r. h. had not satisfied, and if any thing would induce me now to abandon the country with my children, and lake all the blame on my own shoulder; that no sum whatever would be backward if I would say that I would; as my character now had been so very much with the public, it could not be worse if I would take it upon myself and abandon my country with my children, end I should be provided for for life in the handsomest manner possible; that he had no authority from the D. of Y., but it was the Duke's friends.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was for the most prompt step possible.
The doors of the house were instantly ordered to be secured, and, on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Chairman having been previously instructed to report progress, and to ask leave to sit again that afternoon, the house was resumed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
moved, "That the Serjeant at Arms have orders to Make into custody ^William Williams where- 462 ever he could be found." Agreed to nem. con.
The Serjeant was then ordered by the Speaker to do his duty.
The Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again that afternoon.
§ Mr. W. Smith
wished that Mrs. Clarke might be called in to say from whose hands she received the letter.
and several other members addressed the house, but the prodigious tumult prevented us from collecting the tenor of their observations.
§ Mr. Whitbread
moved, that the house should remain in its present state until the return of the Serjeant at Arms.—Ordered.
§ The Speaker
stated, that it would have been competent for the committee, in support of their own proceedings, to order the Serjeant at Arms to take into custody' any person without delay. The first duty of the chairman would then have been to report progress, and, when the person was actually in custody, to move that he be committed.
The Serjeant at Arms then appeared at the bar, and informed the Speaker that Mr. Williams was in custody. The Committee being resumed,
§ Mr. WILLIAM WILLIAMS was brought in, in the custody of the Serjeant at Arms, and examined
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Is that your hand-writing? this is my handwriting, and I delivered that letter myself to the doorkeeper.
§ Will you infirm the committee who and what you are? I am a clergyman.
§ Where do you live? Am I bound to answer this question? I have some personal reasons for: not doing so; reasons applicable tome personally, to my private affairs. [The Chairman informed the witness he was bound to answer? the question.] My place of resilience is now at No. 17, Somers-place, East, in the New Road, near Somers Town.
§ You have seen this letter which you delivered to the door-keeper; of course you are acquainted with the contents of it? I suppose the Utter in your hand to be the same which was put into my hand just now; I am acquainted with it, having written it within this hour.
§ What was the business on which you wished to see Mrs. C.? I had business with her; I am sure I do not know how decorously to answer this question, but it has no reference to the examination now going on before this house.
§ Were you at Mrs. C.'s house yesterday? Not yesterday, the day before.
§ What passed upon that occasion? The whole is not exactly in my recollection; I believe was near an hour there.463
§ State as much as you can of what passed upon that occasion.—I am taken somewhat by surprise, but I will as nearly as I can recollect; it had some general reference to the transaction that is now investigating before the house.
§ State the substance of it.—She asked me if I had seen the newspaper; I replied in the negative; she then related to me part of what I have since seen in the newspapers, that she was fatigued after many hours wailing here; I believe that was the substance of what she related.
§ Are you certain that it was the day before yesterday you had this communication? It was the morning after she was examined here; if I answer the question confusedly, I hope you will not be surprised at it, for I am a little surprised at finding myself here; this is the substance as far as related to any thing else that had reference to our acquaintance: I mentioned some persons that we were acquainted with, and as to their health, and matters, not, I think, worth relating to the house; if you wish I will refresh my memory, and state the minutiæ;.
§ Did you state any thing to Mrs. C. as to the course of the examination hereafter to be pursued upon this business? I do not recollect that I did.
§ Did you give Mrs. C. any advice as to what she had best do upon this subject? I spoke I 'believe something to this effect, that it would be well and proper for her to be cautious.
§ Was that all? I believe I added, what every body is aware of, the high connections of the personage whose conduct is now under your investigation, and that of course I reiterated what I had said before, that caution, I thought, would very much become her.
§ Did you advise Mrs. C. to get out of the way? I never did.
§ You are quite certain that you did not give' her any advice of that sort? I did not.
§ Did you represent, that yon came from any of the friends of the D. of Y.? I did not, I spoke ambiguously, but I did not give her any-such intimation whatever.
§ What do you mean by saying you spoke ambiguously? I spoke the sentiments of my own mind and my own cogitations upon that subject, not having any intimation from any individual in the world.
§ For what purpose did you go to Mrs. C. upon that day? I suppose I may be allowed to pause a moment or two before I answer that question, because it involves a variety of circumstances that now press upon my mind. [The Witness paused for some time.] Among other things, I thought that the confidential intercourse that must have passed between her and the person whose name perhaps I am not at liberty to mention, might have given her opportunities of observing upon his conduct in moments of unreserved communication, and that to introduce matters of that sort before this house would excite certainly his personal resentment as well as the indignation of his family, and that whatever promises might be held out to her would probably not in the event be found sufficient to 464 protect her from the resentment that they probably might conceive it was right at some time to exercise upon her: I suppose I have said enough to convey to the house my sentiments; and to expect of me minutely to detail all that passed in that conversation, would be, I think, an unreasonable expectation.
§ Did you advise Mrs. C. to go out of the kingdom with her children? I did not.
§ And that they should be provided for; did you make any promise to her? I made no promise to her whatever.
§ Did any body advise you to go to Mrs. C.? It was a suggestion of my own mind.
§ Had you been acquainted with Mrs. C. before? Very little.
§ How long had you been acquainted with her? Precisely I cannot say; perhaps two months.
§ Where had you seen her before? At the Opera-house.
§ Had you seen her any where else but at the Opera-house? No.
§ Had you any conversation with her at the Opera-house? No.
§ Were you introduced to her there? I might be said to be introduced; it was rather casual; it was in the presence of persons known to us both.
§ How long was this? About two months ago. Who were the persons present? Lord Lennox and sir Robert Peate. I beg leave to add, that I had not been directed or instructed, or requested to address Mrs. C. on this, or any other subject, by any person whatever; and after mentioning the names of those two gentlemen, I think it very hard they should be implicated in this which has taken me by surprise. What led you to come here this afternoon? I was extremely anxious to see Mrs. C.
§ For what purpose? If I am positively hound to answer that question at the peril of imprisonment, of course it must be answered; to whom am I to address myself for an answer to that question?
§ [The Chairman informed the Witness, that it was the pleasure of the Committee that the question should be answered.]
§ My reason was, to attempt, if I could, to persuade her from that ironical, sarcastic, witty animadversion that sometimes had fallen from her, with reference to the person that I before alluded to.
§ Was that the object with which you wrote this letter? That was one of the objects.
§ What other object had you? I will answer particularly afterwards; generally, I will say it was with a view that was by no means adverse to the person whose conduct is now under investigation, but just on the contrary; and therefore I am the more surprised at the harsh manner in which I have been treated.
§ State what your other object was in writing this letter to Mrs. C.—I thought that if I had an opportunity of seeing her before the appointment that I had to-morrow morning with an agent of h. r. h. that probably I might suggest to her something to prevent those things that 465 did not serve to elucidate the investigation now going on, but to excite the inveteracy of those personages to whom I before alluded.
§ Who is that agent? Mr. Lowten.
§ Who made the appointment with you? By agreement, I addressed Mr. Lowten first, and afterwards the appointment was made:
§ For what purpose did you address Mr. Lowten? For the purpose I have given to the house before.
§ Did you apply to Mr. Lowten by writing, or address him verbally? I had spoken to two or three members of this house, upon this subject.
§ Name them—Mr. Adam and col. Gordon; the other waived it entirely. I am unwilling to mention him; it is col. M' Million, if I am desired to mention him.
§ Did you apply to Mr. Lowten personally or by letter? I was desired by two of the gentlemen whom I have named; col. M' Mahon conceived of this very differently from what many members of this house do: they thanked me for the communication; he does not conceive of any hostility to h. r. h. in the communication, but just the contrary. If there is any thing culpable in my conduct, I am amenable to the censure of the house, and am willing to abide by it; but I do not know- that gentleman acts decorously to me, in making me the subject of personal merriment and ridicule.
§ Was it by personal Address or by writing yon made the appointment with Mr. Lowten? I hesitated whether I should speak to Mr. Lowten or not, and when I spoke to Mr. Adam I declined it; but coming here with this letter, I met Mr. Lowten, within these two hours, and then I addressed him.
§ What did you say to Mr. Lowten? I knew Mr. Lowten officially, and no otherwise; I understand that he holds an office, indeed I have seen him in the exercise of his office in the Court of King's Bench.
§ What did yon say to him? I told him that I had spoken to the gentlemen (I believe that was pretty near the commencement of my conversation with him) whom I have recently named, Mr. Adam and col. Gordon; and I told him also that they declined, and seemed apprehensive; they seemed to think there was a delicacy and difficulty in it, which inclined them to have nothing to do with it; they advised me to communicate to him, and when I met him I took the liberty to address myself to him.
§ Did you tell Mr. Lowten the nature of the subject, which you had to communicate to him? I said (I did think I expressly guarded what I had to say with this observation) that I had no message from Mrs. C, or any communication, directly or indirectly, to make from her.
§ What did you say you had to communicate to Mr. Lowten? I said I thought, as matter of opinion arising out of my own mind, that it was possible, I do not know how I expressed it, but I meant to convey to prevent her going into that irrelevant matter, and I believe the observation I made was this, that it was impos- 466 sible for any man in an unreserved communication of lour years, not in some period of that length of time to have said and done those things which the House of Commons had very little to do with.
§ Was it upon that communication to Mr. Lowten, that he made an appointment with you to come to him to-morrow morning? I recollect no other.
§ What did you tell Mr. Lowten you had to say to him on the subject on which you were to speak to him to-morrow morning? I have told you this moment that was the subject I had to speak, upon.
§ To prevent Mrs. C. going into irrelevant matter? Certainly, that was the main object.
§ How were you to prevent it by going to Mr. Lowten? Certainly, this is a question I am not prepared exactly to answer: I am not sure that I could prevent it at all, and the means: must arise out of the circumstances.
§ What did you mean to propose to Mr. Lowten as the means by which Mrs. C.'s examination might be in any degree altered? I am sure I do not know exactly what I should have said to Mr. Lowten to-morrow morning, but what I should have said to him would have arisen out of the circumstances, and probably out of the communication I should have had with Mrs. C. to-night: and it was for that purpose that expressed so anxious a wish to see her, as I conveyed in that Letter that is laid upon the table.
§ What did you expect would arise between Mrs. C. and yourself to-night, which you expected would enable you Co make a communication with effect to Mr. Lowten, to-morrow? I do not know whether I may not be allowed to go a little into explanation, and not to answer sententiously and immediately, but in an intercourse and friendship of four years much might have passed that it would be proper to suppress.
§ What did you expect would arise between Mrs. C. and yourself to-night, which you expected would enable you to make a communication with effect to Mr. Lowten to-morrow?
§ —If it is intended by these questions that I should—It is impossible, I do not know how to answer the question, I have not the capacity, I do not understand it.
§ What did you expect would arise between Mrs. C. and yourself to-night, which you expected would enable you to make a communication with effect to Mr. Lowten to-morrow? I confess, standing here as I do, that if an inquiry of this sort was going on upon my own subject, there are many things already which have transpired which I should be sorry should transpire, and which have nothing to do with a political question; that is the only way I can answer it.
§ How was it to affect the communication with Mr. Lowten to-morrow in consequence of your seeing Mrs. C. to-night? I did not certainly intend to interfere, or to prevent the 467 inquiry, or to smother the inquiry, or to advise her to suppress any information that has reference to the investigation now going on before the house: but I did think, that if I could persuade her to avoid those sort of witticisms to which I alluded before, and those sort of observations—if the gentlemen wish me to answer this question in such a way as to prove I have been guilty of a breach of the privilege of this house, I cannot do that; I know the deference due to this house, and am willing to treat it with proper deference. May I take the liberty to make one more observation on the law of evidence?
§ [The Chairman informed the witness that he was not called to the bar to make observations, but to give evidence.]
§ Then may I take the liberty of asking, whether I am bound to give that sort of evidence that would criminate myself, and is not this leading to it?
§ Had you written the Letter at the time you saw Mr. Lowten? No, I wrote the letter subsequently; it arose out of the conversation I had with him. As a matter of humanity lad-dress myself to the Chair, with reference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether, as a lawyer, taken by surprise as I am, it is right to propose questions to me, that if they were answered would criminate me.
§ Do you refuse to answer these questions which are put to you, under the fear that they will criminate yourself? No, I do not, upon my honour.
§ [The witness was taken from the bar.]
§ Mr. Kenrick
then rose in his place to make a statement of what he had heard respecting this last witness. Mr. Jones, the messenger, pointed him out in the lobby, as he was assisting in seizing him. When he was brought into the Vole Office, the account he there learned of him was this Mr. Lowten represented him as a man whom he believed to be out of his mind. He had for a long time teased Mr. Jones, the marshal, endeavouring to persuade him that he was a very near relation of his. He was convinced that this Mr. Williams labouredunder a mental derangement.
§ WILLIAM ADAM, Esq. attending in his place, made the following Statement.
§ Many persons have desired to see me since the commencement of this business, who have not sent any name; and I have given orders to let nobody in, who did not send in their names. This gentleman called yesterday, about five o'clock I think or a little after five: he sent in no name, but a gentleman wished to see me. I desired to have the name, and I thought the name given in, was Williamson; I hail seen a gentleman of the name of Williamson, in the morning, a clergyman of Shefford, in Bedfordshire, and I believed it to be the 468 same person; I went into the hall to him, to the outer door; I found it to be a different person; and this gentleman who has just been at the bar, addressed me, and said be had something to communicate, respecting this business that was proceeding in parliament; I said I could hear nothing from him; he seemed extremely anxious to state something; I stopped him, and told him if he had any facts or circumstances to state, Mr. Lowten was employed as h. r. h.'s Solicitor, and he might go to him, and desire an appointment; he left the house; and that was all that passed.
§ JOHN M'MAHON, Esq. a Member of the House, attending in his place, made the following Statement.
§ To my extremeasionishment, I found my name alluded to by the lady who has just been examined at the bar; I cannot tell for what possible purpose she has alluded to me; I have nothing to offer to this Committee, that has the least relevance, or can throw the smallest light upon, any subject whatever, that the hon. gent. has brought before the consideration of this house. In consequence of an anonymous note that was written to h. r h. the Prince of Wales, promising very important communications, I did at the command of the Prince, lightly as he treated the Note, nevertheless call at No. 14, Bedford-row, Russell square, where the note was dated from. Upon going there, the woman who opened the door, and from whom I thought I saw much that told me she had put that note into the penny-post or the twopenny-post herself, I asked her the name of the lady of the house, that I wanted to see; she desired me to tell my name: I told her I could give her no name, but produced the note, which she immediately remembered to have put into the twopenny post, and said it Was written by her mistress. I was then conducted into the house, into a parlour, where certainly there were a great many of those morocco concerns, which she has mentioned before, for there were ten chairs I think set round the table, from the supper or the dinner of the day before; after remaining some time, I was conducted up stairs, where I saw the lady whose name I was told to be Farquhar. The lady in perfect good humour came out and received me; and I held the note I was possessed with, as my credentials, for her communicating whatever she might think fit to tell a third person, not pressing her to any communication which she ought not to give to me. She told me, that she would communicate nothing to a third person; I then told her that it was impossible that I could hold up any expectation of an interview with such a person as the one to whom that letter was and dressed, unless she gave me some clue or some plausible pretence for it, and that I had no idle curiosity to gratify. She then entered into a conversation of so general and so extraordinary a nature, that I am confident this house would not for one moment entertain it, because the tendency and intention of it was 469 to make bad blood beteen two illustrious brothers, whose affections could never be shaken by any such representation; at least, I am confident, that the illustrious person, I have the pride and glory to serve and love, would be incapable. She then told me she would shew me letters to prove and to establish, that there was a hatred on one part to the other; I declined seeing any letters; site then said, would commit those letters to you, for the perusal of the illustrious personage; to which I, as my bounden duty and firm conviction, said, if they were lying at his feet, he would scorn to look at one of them. In this interview, at first, I stated that I thought she was a friend of Mrs. C; she said, Certainly she knew Mrs. C. extremely intimately, that there was nobody she loved and regarded as she did Mrs. C.; that she perfectly knew her. She then asked me if I knew Mrs. C; I said I do not. "Do you know her, Sir, by person?" I said, I believed not. "Do you know her by character?" Yes, said I, her tame is very celebrated; and I have heard of Mrs. C, but know nothing of her myself. She asked me then what I knew; I said, it certainly was not to her advantage; but I had heard the D. of Y. had been very generous to her, and that she had not been very grateful on her part; but that was only from information I had received. She then proceeded to state, what I throw myself on the consideration of the house, as it might be the effect of passion, and appeared to me a disposition to gratify her revenge by representations that I do not think the house would for a moment permit me to expose, when it went to a tendency of making bad blood between two brothers. We then proceeded. I soon after said, "I am speaking to Mrs. C. herself:" I thought so, from several things she told me, that I wish not to repeat: I said, "I am confident I am addressing myself to Mrs. C. herself:" She laughed, and said, "I am Mrs. C." I then begged her a thousand pardons for the portrait I had drawn, but disclaimed being the painter. "I am sure you are not, for it was Adam and Greenwood that gave you my character." We then proceeded, till she made a statement, that I have no hesitation in declaring to this committee did, in its statement, appear such as I could with honour and character entertain and listen to; that, under every compassionate feeling and sentiment, I felt no indisposicion to listen to and entertain. She stated to me, that Mr. Adam had called upon her, and in a very firm, but steady manner, told her, that the D. of Y. was determined to separate from her; but Unit if she retired into the country, and conducted herself with propriety and decorum, he would allow her 400l. a year; that she had accordingly so retired into Devonshire for several months, but failing to receive the remittances she expected, she had been driven to town for the purpose of gaining her arrear, and placing her annuity upon a more regular mode of payment; that if that condition was complied with, by the payment of her 470 arrear, and of securing the punctuality of it to her in future, h. r. h. should never hear any more about her. Upon the fairness of this statement, supposing it to be true, (I do not pretend to say what my opinion of it was) I Said, if your statement, Mrs. C, is correct and orthodox, I will certainly wait upon Mr. Adam, and state it to him, to know where the objection lies to the payment of your annuity. That was in the month of July last. Mr. Adam had gone, two days after I saw Mrs. C., into Scotland, and bad not returned when I came back to London in Oct., therefore I never saw him but at the persuasion of Mrs. C, by a letter she wrote to me, she saying chat h. r. h. was prepared to hear what I had to say, as she told it to him. I had the honour of waiting upon the D. of Y., and telling h. r. h. exactly what she had stated, not pretending to vouch for its veracity in any shape whatever. His r. h.'s immediate and prompt answer to me was, Her conduct is so abominable, that I will hear nothing at all about her. Any thing I could possibly offer after what I have now said would be superfluous; there is the conclusion, that is the epilogue of any tiling I have to state; and as to any question thought proper by the hon. gent., or any circumstances he has cited or remarked upon, I am as ignorant as a man unborn.—With regard to the gentleman who has this moment been at your bar, I did receive a letter from him last night, which I have in my pocket, and will deliver, if it is the pleasure of the house, to which I certainly wrote him civil answer I said I was obliged to him for his attention, but that I had no interference in the question before the house, and that I never would directly nor indirectly have any interference with it. [Colonel M'Mahon delivered in the letter, and it was read.]
§ "Sir; I have this moment left Mrs. C, and I think there are parts of the conversation I have had with her, any confidential friend of the D. of Y.'s would be solicitous to know. If you are of that number, you perhaps Would choose to see me; or, if not, refer me to some one immediately you think would. I hope you will not attribute the hasty manner of this confused address intentional want of decorum, for, on the contrary, with the sincerest sentiments of gratitude, and very great respect, I am, sir, &c. WM. WILLIAMS.— Richold's Hotel, near 4 o'clock, Wednesday."
§ "I understood you was going to ride; I have therefore directed the Potter, it possible, to find you."
§ Colonel GORDON was called in, and examined.
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Have you seen a man of the name of Williams? I have.
§ Did he say any thing to you upon the sub- 471 ject of this inquiry? I will slate to the house exactly what he did say: About 4 o'clock this evening I was at the Chancellor of the Exchequer's on business, and on withdrawing, a servant of Mr. Perceval's told me that a gentleman was in such a room, and desired to see me. I was shewn into the room, and I there saw a person whom to my recollection I never saw before. He addressed me as follows: "Never having had the honour, Sir, of being introduced to col. Gordon, I am not certain that I am now-speaking to him; are you col. Gordon?" I said, Sir, that is my name. He had said, Sir, I Lave been desirous of making a confidential communication to the D. of Y. upon the business now before the house, and to that purpose I addressed a letter to col. M'Mahon yesterday. Col. M'Mahon wrote me an answer (I think he said a civil answer) declining any interference whatever. I have addressed myself this morning to Mr. Adam, and he declined it also. Now, Sir, if you are of the same way of thinking as those gentlemen, it is needless for me to enter upon the business. I said, I am entirely of that way of thinking, Sir, he said, my object is to make a communication to the D. of Y., of a conversation I had with Mrs. C. (I think he said the day before yesterday or yesterday, I will not be quite certain about that) and I think it very desirable that the examination which she is to undergo this evening should be suppressed. I told him that I declined making any communication whatever, and that I was not in the habit of making any confidential communication to the D. of Y., but what arose out of my official situation, and my words were these: I recommend you, Sir, to go to Mr. Lowten, he will advise you, and advise you well. I then withdrew, for the purpose of going out of the room, and it occurred to me I might as well ask him his name, and I addressed him in these words: Pray, Sir, do me the favour to give me your name. He hesitated at that, and told me he had told it to Mr. Adam. I repeated my question, I beg, Sir, to ask your name; he said, Sir, my name then is Williams. I think I am correct in what I say. He walked out of the room, and I thought it necessary to call Mr. Perceval, and told him word for word what I have now had the honour of repeating to the house.
§ [The witness was directed to withdraw.]
§ The Right Hon. CHARLES LONG, a Member of the House, attending in his place, made the following Statement:
§ I have been very anxious to say a word to the committee, in consequence of the manner in which my name has been mentioned by Mrs. C, and have only been prevented doing so, in consequence of the interruption that has taken place in her examination. She stated that h. r. h. the D. of Y. had mentioned to her, that he had mentioned Mr. Dowler's name to me for an appointment in the Commissariat, and that in consequence of that I had said it should be settled immediately. Upon that I have to 472 state, that to the best of ray recollection h. r. h. never mentioned the name of Mr. Dowler to me upon any occasion whatever, nor do I recollect having heard his name, until I saw that gentleman at the bar of this house. The other point upon which my name was also alluded to, it is hardly necessary, perhaps, I should explain; but I have only to say upon that, that Mrs. C. has stated, that h. r. h. had also said that he had shewn a List of 17 Members of this house who would vote with Mr. Pitt in case this appointment took place, and that I was very much delighted with the list: if I had seen any such list, I dare say I should have been very much delighted with it, as it was represented that a number of gentlemen of that sale of the house were likely to have voted upon that question with those with whom I generally act; but I have only to say, that neither upon that occasion, as connected with the appointment of Mr. Dowler, nor any other; did h. r. h. ever shew me any such list.
§ (By Mr. C. Wynn).
§ In the year 1805, were any appointments made to the Commissariat through you, by h. r. h.'s recommendation? I remember particularly the recommendation of the D. of Y. being made through me to Mr. Pitt, for the appointment of Mr. Manby to the Commissariat early in 1805; h. r. h. mentioned to me, that great disputes prevailed amongst several of the officers of the 10th Light Dragoons, and that the paymaster, Mr. Manby, was very much involved in those disputes, he thought; that all the officers, I think he said, were a good deal to blame, as well as I recollect, and that he was quite sure that the animosity that subsisted would never be done away while Mr. Manby remained paymaster of that regiment; he said, that he did not think that any thing that had come to his knowledge impeached the integrity of Mr. Manby, but that he wished him to be removed to some other situation to which his talents were adapted. About the same period, an hon. member of this house, one of the members for the county of Surrey, who represented himself, I think, as a relation of Mr. Manby's, stated also his anxious wish to me, that some appointment might be found for Mr. Manby, and that he should quit the regiment. I mentioned, as I was desired, to Mr. Pitt, both what had been stated by h. r. h., and what had been stated also by the hon. member to whom I have alluded, Mr. Sumner; and, in consequence of that, he was appointed an assistant commissary.
§ Did you, about that time, receive any other recommendation of the D. of Y.'s for the commissariat department? None whatever, that I recollect.
§ Mrs. MARY ANN CLARKE was called in, again, and examined.
§ (By Mr. Lamb).
§ What first gave you the idea that it was pos- 473 sible to procure money by disposal of commissions in the army? By persons applying to me; and I found that h. r. h. was very ready to oblige me when I asked him.
§ Do you recollect having desired Mr. Corri to burn any letters or papers that were in his possession? Yes, I do.
§ Was that desire expressed by letter or by word of mouth? By word of mouth.
§ When was that desire-expressed? I cannot speak as to the time, but I believe some piece of work had happened publicly; I forget upon what occasion, whether it was about lord Melville's Trial, or what, something or another that way.
§ Do you recollect having made use of these expressions, That there would be a terrible noise about it, and the Duke would be very angry? It is very likely I did; I daresay I did.
§ What did you mean by those expressions, in case you did use them? That he would be very angry with me for being incautious.
§ (By Mr. Lyttleton).
§ You have stated, that you only received 1,000l. a year from the D. of Y.; had you credit with the Duke's tradesmen? No.
§ You have stated, that you received money for procuring a commission for Mr. Dowler and a Letter of Service for col. French; was money paid to you before you made applications to the Duke upon either of those accounts? No.
§ Had you a promise of money? Yes.
§ When you made the application to the Duke, did you state to him that you had a promise of pecuniary reward? I stated the whole case of Mr. Dowler.
§ (By Mr. Sheridan).
§ Do you recollect to have had any negotiation respecting other promotions, entirely disconnected with the Military department? If you will point out what those things were, I will answer to it.
§ Had you any negotiation or money transactions respecting promotions in the Church? I never received any; but a Dr. O'Meara applied to me; he wanted to be a Bishop; he is very well known in Ireland.
§ Are you confident you never had any application or negotiation for any other preferment in the Church, but this of Dr. O'Meara? Yes, lately.
§ State what those applications were. I hardly gave myself time to read them, as I have no interest now.
§ For what rank of promotion were those applications made? Something about a Deanery or a Bishoprick.
§ Through what channel were the persons applying led to believe you were to, promote their wishes? I do not know; I believe still the D. of Y., they thought.
§ Those applications were since the connection between yourself and the D. of Y. had ceased? Yes.474
§ Did you state the name of any other great or illustrious person to those persons so applying, or any agent applying on their behalf? No, certainly not.
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer).
§ Do you recollect the name of any person who applied for those church preferments? Is it wished the gentleman who wrote to me, or the gentleman who named the sup in the Church.
§ Both.—Those are some of the letters that col. Wardle ran off with, that relate to them.
§ State the names of any persons who applied for those Church preferments.—The gentleman is determined to deny it; I have just been speaking to him now upon that subject.
§ What is h s name? Donovan.
§ On whose behalf did Mr. Donovan apply to you? I do not know; he talks a great deal about Dr. Glasse, and a great many other Doctors; but it was not for Dr. Glasse that the appointment was wished.
§ For whom was it that the appointment was wished? I cannot recollect the name, but it is in those letters that col. Wardle has, I think.
§ How do you know that Mr. Donovan means to deny this fact, of having made tins application to you for church preferment? I had not know that he means to deny about the Church preferment; but he means to deny it altogether; and I never did prefer any one to the Church.
§ Did you ever receive a letter from Mr. Donovan, toiling you to be very quick in your application to the D. of y., or perhaps some, other illustrious person would interfere with him, and get the preferment; and who was that illustrious person? I believe the person who takes almost all the Patronage of the Church in England, he alluded to, or who is entitled to it, as being the first Female Personage in England; but col. Wardle told me he would never bring that name forward, or that letter.
§ Did you ever receive a letter from Mr. Donovan, telling you to be very quick in your application to the D. of Y., or perhaps some other illustrious person would interfere with him, and get the preferment.' Yes, I received such a letter.
§ Did you ever communicate Dr. O'Meara's offer for a bishoprick to the Commander in Chief? Yes, I did, and all his documents.
§ What was the Commander in Chiefs answer? That he had preached before his majesty, and his majesty did not like the O in his name. I never mentioned that till this moment, except to the Doctor himself.
§ Did Dr. O'Meara specify any particular sum; and what was that sum? I think that gentleman must be a friend of his, and he must know better than I do, and he may recollect perhaps.
§ Did Dr. O'Meara specify any particular sum? I forget; and I have burnt almost all my papers: I might recollect, but not at this moment.475
§ (By Mr. Yorke).
§ Do you recollect at what time Dr. O'Meara Wade this application? In 1805, the very night that the Duke was going to Weymouth; he called upon me the moment the Duke had left the house, between twelve and one o'clock; I think he watched h. r. h. out, as he had seen that his horses were waiting in Portman-square, and then he came in just as I was upon the stairs, and said it was a very good opportunity, for he was going to Weymouth immediately, and asked me to come down stairs again, and write him a letter of introduction to h. r. h., and I did so.
§ You have said you had no credit with the Duke's tradesmen; do you mean to say that the Duke did not pay any of your tradesmen's bills? I do not recollect that ever he did, except one to a milliner.
§ (By Sir George Warrander).
§ You have stated, that the D. of Y. had paid Several sums of money in addition to the 1,000l. a year, upon various occasions; do you still adhere to that statement? He paid 1,300l. to the silversmith, to balance from what I had paid; I do not recollect any thing at present but that.
§ Did not the D. of Y. pay several other considerable sums, besides the 1,000l. a year, during your residence in Gloucester-place? He paid for Ode landau, and that is all I can recollect at all.
§ Are you positive that you can recollect no other sums being paid for you by h. r. h.? I cannot recollect one except those.
§ What was the amount of your debts at the Separation from h. r. h.? Something under 2,000l. I sent in to him the next day by Mr. Comrie; but I found them to be more, upon examination.
§ Did you understand, when yon were asked whether the D. of Y. bad paid any other sums besides the 1,000l. a year, that the question applied to sums paid to tradesmen; if so, state now whether you received yourself any sums from the D. of Y. besides the 1,000l. a year.—I do not recollect any.
§ For what period did yon reside in Gloucester-place? I(should think about 2½or 3 years.
§ (By Sir James Graham).
§ During the 2½ or 3 years you lived at Gloucester-place; and Weybridge, was the D, of Y. well acquainted with the extent of your establishment? Certainly, never a day passed without his being there, except the time that he went to the king.
§ On whom Was the Court Martial, on which you stated on a former evening that you bad been a witness? On captain Thompson.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw].
§ Mr. Whitbread
said, he rose in consequence of the assertion of Mrs. C. in the beginning of the evening (that she had 476 been insulted and abused in coming into the house of commons), to more that the Serjeant at Arms be ordered to attend the witnesses to and from the house of commons, to protect them from any insult or injury that might be offered to them in obeying the orders of that house. He said, whatever might be the character, the morals, or the line of life pursued by the witness who had been before the house, that there was a certain deference and respect due to the sex which should not be violated on any occasion, least of all on her entrance into that house.
§ Mr. Sheridan
said, he felt it his duty to object to the motion of his hon., friend, for two reasons, first that he did not wish it should appear that it was necessary to make any such order; secondly, that on the most accurate inquiry into the business, he understood that no insult whatever had been offered the witness in the course of the evening.
§ Mr. Whitbread
said, that if his right hon. friend would say that no insult had been offered the witness, he would not persist in his motion.
§ Mr. Sheridan
said he could not be positive, not having been present on the occasion; his knowledge was grounded on the strict inquiries which had been made.
§ JOHN CLEMENTSON, Esq. the Deputy Serjeant at Arms, was examined
§ (By Mr. Whitbread.)
§ State to the committee what you know relative to the coming of Mrs. C. to the house, and her passage from her carriage up to the door.—I directed the messengers, when Mrs. C. was ordered to he called in, to go to her; it was sometime before they could find her; I directed them to go to the different coffee-houses, and at last learnt that she was waiting in her carriage close to the house of commons. She sent me a message by a messenger, stating that she had been insulted, and she would not get out of her carriage till I came for her. Immediately I went down. When I got there, I saw seven or eight people or a dozen people, I do not think more; her carriage door was opened, and she was handed out, and not a word passed. I took a constable with me, and brought her up to the house. There was not a word said to her all the way I came with her here.
§ Was not there a considerable crowd in the passages leading to the house? Yes, there were several people, a great many servants, they were standing on one side; there was quite room enough for us to pass.
§ Did any of those persons insult her? Not a word passed, to my knowledge.477
§ Who was (he messenger whom you sent for her? His name is Skelton.
§ He was sent by you for Mrs. C? Yes.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.
§ Miss MARY ANN TAYLOR was called in, and examined
§ (By Mr. Wardle.)
§ Were you in the habit of visiting in Gloucester-place, when Mrs. C. was under the protection of the Duke of York? Very frequently.
§ Did you ever hear the D. of Y. speak to Mrs. C. respecting col. French and his levy? Once only.
§ Relate what passed at that time.—The Duke's words were, as nearly as I can recollect, 'I am continually worried by col. French; he worries me continually about the levy business, and is always wanting something more in his own favour.' Turning to Mrs. C, I think he said, 'How does he behave to you, Darling?' or some such kind words as he used to use; that was all that was said.
§ Do you recollect any thing further passing than what you have suited? Mrs. C. replied, 'Middling, not very well.' That was all that she said.
§ Was that the whole of the conversation? No.
§ Relate the rest—The Duke said, 'Master French must mind what he is about or I shall cut up him and his levy too.' That was the expression he used.
§ (By the Attorney General.)
§ How long have you known Mrs. C.? Ten years.
§ Have you known her no longer than ten years? I do not exactly recollect, it may be something more.
§ Where did you first become acquainted with her? At a house at Bayswater, near the Gravel Pits.
§ Where do you live yourself? At Chelsea.
§ With whom did you live at Bayswater? With my parents.
§ What are your parents? My father was a gentleman.
§ Do you live with your father now? No.
§ Is your father living? Yes.
§ Is your mother living? Yes.
§ Do you live with your mother? No.
§ Are you married? No.
§ With whom do you live? My sister.
§ What is your sister's name? Sarah.
§ Is she a married woman or a single woman? Single.
§ Where do you live? Chelsea.
§ In lodgings, or as housekeepers? Housekeepers.
§ Are you of any profession? If a boarding-school be a profession.
§ In what part of Bayswater did Mrs. C. live when you knew her there? It is called Craven-place, within two doors of our house.
§ Who lived with her? Her husband, when I first knew her.478
§ Have you known any one living with her since? His r. h. the Duke of York.
§ Have you known no man live with her but h. r. h., since her husband lived with her? Not to my knowledge.
§ Have you seen much of her; have you been intimately acquainted with her? Yes.
§ You are not related to her, are you? My brother is married to her sister.
§ Did you know her when she lived at Tavis took-place? Yes.
§ Did her husband live with her there? I never saw him there, I understood she lived with her mother there.
§ What time passed between her leaving her husband and her living with the Duke of York? I cannot recollect.
§ About how many years? I do not know that.
§ How long ago did YOU know her at Bayswater? Somewhat about ten years; I cannot say exactly.
§ Had not her husband left her before she left Bayswater? I do not know.
§ Do you mean to say, you do not know whether Mrs. C.'s husband had left her before she left Bayswater? Yes.
§ What was her husband? I always understood he was a man of some fortune.
§ Do you know that he only had an annuity of 50l. a year, which was paid him weekly? I never heard such a thing.
§ Did you ever see him with Mrs. C., during the latter part of her stay at Bayswater? No.
§ During the latter part of the time Mrs. C. staid at Bayswater, you never saw her husband, Air. C. there? I do not recollect that I did.
§ Where did Mrs. C. go from Bayswater? I do not recollect.
§ Do you remember her in Park-lane? She called upon me one day, and said she was in Park-lane.
§ Were you in her house, at Tavistock-place, often? Yes.
§ Did you live with her there? I never lived with her at all.
§ You never slept in the house? Yes, frequently.
§ Do you know that any one lived with her but her husband at that time? No.
§ You took her to be a modest, decent, woman, whilst she lived, in Tavistock-place? She lived with her mother as I thought, and I knew nothing to the contrary.
§ What is your father's name? The same name as mine.
§ Taylor? Yes.
§ What is his Christian name? Thomas.
§ Where does he live now? I had rather be excused, answering.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.
was of opinion that she ought not to be compelled to answer, as there might possibly be circumstances attending the disclosure of this question, which might prove injurious to the witness's father; nor 479 could he conceive that any material benefit would result to the present inquiry from the disclosure of I his circumstance.
The Attorney General
in reply observed, that he knew nothing of the witness; but sure he was, that much of the credit of the testimony of this evidence depended upon that degree of respectability which both the witness and her connections in society held. Would the noble lord or any member in the house deny, that the evidence of a prostitute, who might be picked up in a street, was to be equally relied upon with that of a person who supported a decent and respectable character? Nor was it immaterial to the present enquiry to know?where the lather and mother of the witness resided, as it was highly probable that the knowledge of this circumstance might tend 10 extract truth from the mine of error, with which it appeared to him to be involved.
§ [The witness was again called in, and the question proposed.]
§ I do not know.
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Do you mean that your credit should rest upon the veracity of that answer, that you do not know where your father lives? I do not exactly understand the question.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that he could not help suspecting, that something would be disclosed by a direct answer to that question, that would greatly, if not wholly, discredit the testimony of the witness. It must appear a very extraordinary case, that neither of the sisters knew, or rather, would not tell, where the father was; and, therefore, he still adhered to his former opinion, that the question ought to be answered in a direct manner.
§ Mr. Wilberforce
saw no good that could result from compelling the witness to answer the question in a direct form, as it was probable the fact could be ascertained by putting the question in another shape.
thought it utterly impossible to carry on the inquiry, unless such questions were pointedly answered; the truth could never be found out, and the obloquy under-which the Duke of York had 480 fallen, by a combination of some of the most abandoned characters, could not be so easily removed, if the witness was permitted to evade answering a question which in his judgment was fair and reasonable.
§ Mr. Simeon
did not see any reasonable objection to the answering of the question, and therefore trusted the Committee would not relax.
§ [The Witness was again called in and examined
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Do you mean seriously upon reflection to abide by your answer, that you do not know where your father lives? Yes.
§ How long is it since you have seen him? About a fortnight.
§ Do you know where he was living when you saw him last? At Chelsea.
§ In what street at Chelsea? I beg leave to decline answering that question.
§ What reason have you for declining answering that question? I do not like to tell so large an assembly where I live.
§ Were you living with your father? Some time ago.
§ A fortnight ago were you living with your father? He did not live with me, he had just dune from the country.
§ Was he living at Chelsea? He staid two or three days with me.
§ Where had he been living in the country before he came to you? He had been going about different parts; I do not know where.
§ Is he of any business? No.
§ What objection have you, who keep a boarding-school, to tell this house where you live, particularly? I have answered that just now.
§ Will you repeat it? I did not wish to inform so large an assembly of my residence.
§ What reason have you for wishing to conceal where you live from so large an assembly? They will find I am poor, and doubt my veracity.
§ You may be assured your veracity will not be doubted on account of your poverty; state to the house where you live, and what street in Chelsea you live in.—China Row.
§ What number? No. 8.
§ Do you keep a boarding-school in that place? I and my sister do.
§ Was any body present besides yourself at the conversation which you alledge to have passed between the D. of Y. and Mrs. C, respecting col. French? No.
§ Did you often see the D. of Y. in company with Mrs. C? Yes.
§ How often may you have seen him? I do not recollect; seldom three weeks passed that I did not.
§ How long have you kept a boarding-school? Two years.
§ At the same place? No.
§ Where before? At Kentish Town.481
§ What part of Kentish Town; what street? It had no name.
§ Can you tell what number? No, it was neither a number, nor had the place a name; there were but two houses.
§ Did you keep (bat boarding-school under the name of Taylor? Yes.
§ Where did your father live at that time? I beg to be excused answering any questions concerning my father.
§ Where did your father live at that time? He lived with me during part of the time there. How long have you lived at Chelsea? Lost Michaelmas twelvemonth.
§ How long have you lived at Kentish Town? Not above three quarters of a year.
§ While you were at Kentish Town, where did your father live, when he was not with you? I had rather not answer that question.
§ While you were at Kentish Town, where did your father live, when he was not with you? I must appeal to the indulgence of the Chairman. [The Chairman informed the witness that there appeared no reasonable objection to her answering the question, and that therefore it was the pleasure of the Committee that she should answer it.]
§ I cannot recollect just now.
§ Why did you wish to be excused answering, that question, when you only did not recollect where it was that your father lived? For that reason.
§ (By the Attorney General.)
§ How long ago is it that yon heard the conversation you have been speaking of, between h. r. h. and Mrs. C.? I cannot say exactly.
§ As nearly as you can? During Mrs. C.'s residence in Gloucester-place.
§ Where did you live then? We moved about that time; but I do not recollect whether that circumstance happened afterwards or before.
§ From what place to what place did you move? From Bayswater to Islington.
§ Did your father live with you at Bayswater, at the time you removed to Islington? Yes.
§ Did he live with you at Islington? Yes.
§ Where did you live at Islington? Dalby Terrace.
§ Do you recollect what number? No. 5.
§ What business did your father carry on then? None.
§ Has your father never carried on any business? No.
§ What business was Mr. Clarke? I never heard that he was of any business.
§ How long did you live at Islington? A little more than a year.
§ Was that before you went to Kentish Town? Immediately preceding it.
§ You lived at Kentish Town about three quarters of a year? Exactly.
§ Do you know Mr. Wardle? Yes.
§ How long have you known him? Not more than two or three months.
§ Have you known him two or three months? Yes.482
§ At whose request do you attend here tonight? At the request of Mrs. C.
§ Did yon ever see Mr. Dowler at Mrs. C.'s house at Gloucester-place? Yes.
§ Did you ever see Mr. Dowler in the some room with h. r. h. the D. of Y. and Mrs. C.? Never.
§ Were you ever told by Mrs. C, that she had represented Mr. Dowler to the D. of Y. as Mrs. C.'s brother? Never.
§ Do you believe that your lather's affairs are in a state of embarrassment? Yes.
§ Do you know Mr. Williams, a Clergyman, of Kentish Town? I never heard his name.
§ Have you always kept a boarding-school at your different residences? At Kentish Town, and at Chelsea.
§ How many scholars have you now? About twelve.
§ How long did you reside at Kentish Town? Three-quarters of a year.
§ Did you remove immediately from Islington to Kentish Town? Yes.
§ How long did you reside at Islington? More than a twelvemonth.
§ How much more than a twelvemonth? Seven or 8 months.
§ The conversation that you have stated you heard to take place between the D. of Y. and Mrs. C., you stated to have passed about the time you removed from Bayswater to Islington; is that correct? Yes, it must have been about that time.
§ Was it about that time? I cannot say exactly.
§ Upon recollection, can you recall to your mind any circumstances which will induce you to believe that it was about that time? No.
§ Then, do you state that without any precise recollection upon the subject? Only by guess.
§ Do you recollect ever seeing col. French in Gloucester-place? I have heard him announced; but I cannot say that I was introduced to him.
§ (By Mr. Bereford.)
§ What is the age of your youngest scholar? Seven.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.
§ Mr. DANIEL SUTTON was called in, and examined.
§ (By Mr. Wardle.)
§ Do you recollect Mrs. C. being at capt. Thompson's Court Martial, at Colchester? I do.
§ State to the Committee what passed relative to her being put down a widow.—In consequence of my having been directed to summon Mrs. C. to appear to give evidence before the Court Martial that was sitting on charges preferred against capt. Thompson, I applied to capt. Thompson's solicitor, a Mr. Smithies, and desired he would send to me the christian us well as the sirname and description of Mrs. C. 483 Mr. Smithies delivered to me the description upon paper; and, as near as I can recollect, her name was Mary Ann Clarke, of Loughton Lodge, in the county of Essex, widow. In consequence of the description so given me, by Mr. Smithies, I entered it upon the Minutes of the Court, and administered the oath which I usually administered to Witnesses, and then having read the charges to Mrs. C, she then answered the questions which were put by lieut. col. Fane, who was the prosecutor; was afterwards examined upon questions submitted by Mr. Smithies, who was concerned for capt. Thompson, and then upon questions that were asked her by different members of the Court. I have a recollection, I think, of Mr. Smithies having communicated to me, she was not examined the first day she was summoned, in consequence of a witness, of the name of Maltby, who had been under examination for a considerable time. I think Mr. Smithies communicated to me some delicacy Mrs. C. had, as to the appearance before the Court, and as to questions that might be put to her; and I told him, that she need not be under any apprehensions, for no improper questions should be put to her; if she answered the interrogatories of the prosecutor and the Court, she need be under no apprehension as to any disagreeable questions, which she seemed to apprehend might, be put to her; and she subsequently answered every question that was put; and, upon that particular charge, capt. Thompson was afterwards honourably acquitted.
§ (By the Attorney General.)
§ Did she herself state herself to be a widow, or was she asked, or did any conversation pass between yourself and her, upon that subject? I really am not quite sure; I saw Mrs. C. once or twice previous to her examination that day, in order to communicate to her that she must stop, and Mr. Smithies requested me to step to the Cups, where he was, to let him have the proceedings, to prepare capt. Thompson's defence; I rather think it was Mr. Smithies, for I perfectly remember, which is usual where the Assistant adjutant general of the district does not deliver me the list of the witnesses, but where they come from the solicitor of the party, that he will deliver to me the name and description, and I rather think it was in consequence of what he said to me.
§ You do not recollect asking her the question whether she was a widow or not? Upon my word I do not recollect whether I did.
§ You do not recollect any conversation that passed relative to her situation; her wishing to avoid publicity? I do not recollect the particulars, but I do recollect, either before or after the time Mr. Smithies asked me to step down to the Inn, with the papers, that she said she was in a very delicate situation, and alluded to her situation; I do not recollect that she mentioned the particular person under whose protection she was, but she alluded to it, and I understood from general report what she meant.484
§ Was she particularly described as a widow, or did she answer to the interrogatory whether she was or was not a widow? She answered to no interrogatory upon that subject, it is not the practice for witnesses at courts martial to answer to such interrogatories, unless they are specifically put; the name and description is put down, and then the charges read; then the oath is administered, and then the question put.
§ (By Mr. Beresford.)
§ Do you recollect any evidence that came forward at that court martial, relative to a bill of exchange? Yes, I do, Mrs. C. was examined, and gave evidence upon two bills of exchange.
§ Relate the circumstances of her testimony, so far as you recollect.—I have the original minutes which I took at that court martial, in my pocket.
§ Refer to that part of the evidence which refers to the bill of exchange signed Elizabeth Mackenzie farquhar.— Mary Ann Clarke, of Loughton Lodge, in the county of Essex, widow, a witness produced by the prosecutor, being duly sworn, was examined.
§ Was that read to her? No, I believe it was not read to her.
§ [The witness read the following extract from the minutes.— Look at this bill; is the body of it and signature your hand writing? The witness was then shewn the bill of the 1st May, 1807, and then deposed, Yes, it is; but it purports to be the hand of my mother; she was present when it was written. I am frequently in the habit of guiding her hand when she writes, or takes any thing in her hand, in consequence of her being very infirm and very nervous.—Look at this bill; is the body of it and signature your handwriting? The witness was then shewn a bill of the 15th of July, 1807. It is.—Look at both the bills, and state to the court, whether the acceptance of both is the handwriting of Mr. Russell Manners. Yes, in the presence of myself and my mother.—Did you, or your mother, give these drafts to capt. Thompson? My mother the first, and myself, I believe, the last.—Was capt. Thompson aware that you signed the name of Elizabeth Mackenzie Farquhar to these drafts, when they were given to him? Never.—Did he not know your hand writing from your mother's? I do not think he docs, when I direct her hand—Was Mr. Russell Manners indebted to you in a sufficient sum, to authorize you to draw upon him for the sum of a hundred pounds? He was.—State to the court the reason why you did not indorse the bill dated the 20th of May, 1807. I had no reason; I was not aware of the circumstance that I had not indorsed it; it never was returned to me to be indorsed.—Do you recollect the date of the bill dated the 15th of July, 1807, being altered? No, I do not.—When those bills were given to capt. Thompson, had you any doubt but that Mr. Russell Man- 485 ners would pay them when they respectively should become due? Not the least.—Had you ever before these bills were drawn, drawn bills upon Mr. Russell Manners; and if you had, were such bills paid when due? I never did; I have more bills of Mr. Manners's, but I have never made use of them, finding that those bills were not duly honoured.—Had you any good reason to believe that Messrs. Maltby would pay the bills when they became due; and if you had, state to the court what wore the reasons on which your belief was founded? I certainly thought that Mr. Rowland Malt-by would pay them, because I knew that he had at different times paid some thousands for Mr. Manners; besides which, Mr. Maltby knew I had assisted Mr. Manners with money, and therefore I thought he would take care of those bills before others.—Had you any personal communication with Mr. Rowland Maltby respecting the bills in question, previous to the last week? Never—Have you had any personal communication with him respecting them within the last week, and if you have, state to the court the substance of it. On Thursday last I went, accompanid by my mother, to Mr. Rowland Maltby's, and he told me that he was coming.
§ Does it appear upon the minutes of that court martial, from the testimony of Mrs. C. that she put the pen into her mother's hand, and with that wrote her name upon a bill of exchange? That is in the answer to the first question that was put to Mrs. C.486
§ (By the Attorney General.)
§ During the proceedings of that court martial, were any private questions put in your presence to Mrs. C. out of court, respecting her being a widow, which were afterwards entered upon the minutes? I do not recollect any; I had conversation, as I mentioned before, with Mr. Smithies, and, I believe, with Mrs. C. I am not exactly sure, but I cannot recollect the whole of that conversation; it was relative to her delicacy with respect to her being examined, and her fear that unpleasant questions might be put to her generally; I have no recollection of any as to her being a widow; I desired Mr. Smithies, understanding that capt. Thompson was brother to Mrs. C that he would give me her description, and he gave it upon paper.
§ [The Witness was directed to withdraw.]
§ Mr. THOMAS PARKER was called in, and examined as follows:
§ (By Mr. Wardle.)
§ Refer to your book as to the date of any payment that was made by Mrs. C. in the year 1804; 500l. on account of a service of plate.—I know nothing of the subject at all; I was only left executor to Mr. Birkett; I have a book here, in which there is some account, which I looked at to-day, which I did not know of before.
§ [The witness produced the book, in which appeared the following Account:]
|261||MRS. CLARKE, DR.|
|May 16, 1804.||£.||s.||d.|
|The whole of the above-mentioned Articles for||1,363||14||10|
|All elegant rich chased Silver Epergne, with four Branches, and rich cut Glasses to Do.||153.16.||159||13||0|
|Very large Oval Silver Tea Tray||183. 8.||84||0||0|
|An elegant Oval Silver Tea Pot, sq. Ivory Handle||22 oz.||16||16||0|
|12 Gadroond Silver Soap Plates, to correspond with the others||242. 1||105||0||0|
|2 large Silver Gadroond Waiters||129.9 a'9/||58||3||0|
|Putting on Silver Plates for Arms, and polishing the above||16||5||6|
|Engraving Aims and Crest on the above||21||6||0|
|Pair Sugar Tongs||0||18||0|
|PER CONTRA CR.||261|
|1804. May 18.||£.||s.||d.|
|By Cash on Account||500||0||0|
|By a Bill at 2 Months||200||0||0|
|By a Nov. 4 Months||200||0||0|
|By a Bill at 6 Months||200||0||0|
|By a Bill at 8 Months||200||0||0|
|By a Bill at 10 Months||200||0||0|
|By a Bill at 12 Months||200||0||0|
|By Cash, a Draft on Coutts and Co. 23 July||121||0||0|
§ Do you know any thing more of that book: or do you know as to any of the payments, by whom they were made; or what those bills were, or upon whom drawn? I do not know any thing more of it; there is another little account in this book; here is nothing here which states at all what bills they were. I did not know any tiling of it till to-day; I was not sure whether the summons was intended for me or not, for my name was not inserted, nor where Mr. Birkett lived; it was inserted Princesstreet, Hanover-square; I never knew him live there. I came down, it being left at my house.
§ Do you know who the late Mr. Birkett's bankers were? Yes, Marsh and Company in Berners-street.
§ Have you any other memorandum in that book? Here is some other account of goods, watches, and some other silver goods, and various other articles, which amounts to 280l. 9s. besides the other account.
§ [The witness was directed to withdraw.]
§ HARVEY CHRISTIAN COMBE, esq. a member of the house, attending in his place, was examined.
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Will you mention the circumstance of your seeing Mr. Dowler shortly after he bad received his commission in the commissariat? I was riding through the street, and I met Mr. Dowler by accident, I bad heard before with great pleasure that be had got an appointment in the commissariat; I was not unacquainted with the reverses of fortune be had sustained at the Stock Exchange, and I was rejoiced to hear that he had an employment that would yield him a comfortable maintenance; I stopt him to give him my congratulations, and having heard that he. had got this by the request of Mrs. C. I asked him whether he had obtained it by the interest of Mrs. C. or Mr. Brook Watson; his reply to me was "O, by Mr. Watson's"
§ From your knowledge of Mr. Dowler, do you believe him to be a man of integrity? Perfectly so, I would have recommended him to any situation he was a candidate for.
§ From whom had you heard that he obtained the appointment from Mrs. C.? I know a great many persons who are equally acquainted with the Dowlers: from various persons I heard it, but I cannot recollect one individual.
§ Did you know of your own knowledge that there has been any connection between Mr. Dowler and Mrs. C.? I did not.
§ Cannot yon recollect one person among many individuals from whom you heard it? It is a great many years ago, if I were compelled to say who I should select, my own son.
§ (By Lord Folkestone).
§ Do you not from your own knowledge know that Mr. Dowler's father adopted a line of politics in the city directly opposite to that of sir Brook Watson? I know that Mr. Dowler's 488 father in the City of London adopted the Whig principles, but whether he was a member of the Whig Club I do not know, nor do I now know exactly what Mr. Brook Watson's political principles were.
§ Mr. JEREMIAH DONOVAN was called in, and examined.
§ (By the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
§ Do you know Mrs. Clarke? I do.
§ Do you recollect at any time furnishing her with a List of names of persons for whom she was to obtain from the D. of Y. military or other promotion? Never.
§ (By Mr. Cavendish Bradshaw.)
§ Have you not been in the habit of trafficking in places under government?. I never have trafficked for any places under government in my life.
§ In no situations for India? From government.
§ Appointments from government? Never.
§ Or from the East India Company, appointments that must come under the cognizance of the board of Controul? I will be obliged to the gentleman if he will inform me what appointments those are.
§ Have you ever offered a situation in India for a sum of money to a Mr. O'Hara? I have. What was the nature of that situation? A writership.
§ What was Mr. O'Hara to have given you for that situation? 3,000 some odd pounds, but I cannot say exactly.
§ When was this? I believe the last year, but I do not exactly recollect.
§ How did that negotiation break off? It broke off in consequence of Mr. O'Hara's brother not depositing the money at the banker's which was nominated by the gentleman who had the disposal of the appointment, or who informed me that he had the disposal of the appointment.
§ Did not Mr. O'Hara offer to deposit the money in his own banker's hands, and did you not object to that, and wish it to be deposited in your banker's bands, in Henrietta-street, Covent-Garden? The money, Mr. O'Hara informed me, was deposited in a banker's hands in the city, I believe it was Curtis and Robarts; the person who bad the disposal of the appointment would not consent to its remaining there, but wished it should be deposited at Messrs. Austen and Maunde's in Covent-Garden, and in consequence of that the negotiation ceased. I did it at the request of a lady from Dublin, who sent a letter to me, saying that she wished I could obtain for a, Mr. O'Hara, whose father was her particular friend, a writership to India; I applied to a gentleman, and he told me he could obtain that appointment, and the negotiation broke off in consequence of their not depositing the money at the house of Austen and Maunde.489
§ (By Mr. Smith.)
§ What person authorized you to negociate this appointment in the East India company's service?— [The witness was directed to withdraw.
§ [The witness was again called in and the question proposed.]
§ Am I obliged to expose the name of the lady; if I am, I certainly shall.
§ Was the lady the purchaser, or was it through the lady you were to obtain the appointment of some director? The lady wrote to me, requesting I would make inquiry, in order to procure the writership for this gentleman: in consequence of this I did make the inquiry, but do not know any director's name concerned in the business.
§ Of whom did you expect to receive this patronage? I was recommended by Messrs. Austen and Maunde, to a gentleman who promised to procure the patronage.
§ Name the gentleman.—Mr. Tahourdin, an attorney of Argyll-street.
§ Do yon know from Mr. Tahourdin's connections, from whom he was to obtain it at the India House? I do not.
§ Cannot you guess or surmise?—I cannot.
§ Upon what grounds did you desire the 3,000 and odd pounds to be lodged? It was to have been lodged to he paid to Mr. Tahourdin, on the young gentleman passing as a writer to India.
§ Did Mr. Tahourdin ever give you reason to believe that he had the promise of that nomination? If he had not, I certainly should not have requested the young gentleman to have lodged the money at the banker's.
§ (By Mr. Sheridan.)
§ Did you introduce a clergyman of the name of O'Meara to Mrs. C.? I have not the pleasure to know a clergyman of that name.
§ Did you ever apply to Mrs. C. for the promotion of any person in the Church? In the month of Nov. or Dec. last, Mrs. C. informed me that she had very great influence; I heard of a vacancy in the Church, and I did apply for it for a friend of mine.
§ What was that vacancy? A Deanery.
§ What Deanery? I believe Salisbury.
§ Did you apply only for that Deanery, or any other Deanery? For either the Deanery of Salisbury or Hereford.
§ This was either in Nov. or Dec. last? It was.
§ Being so intimate with Mrs. C, of course you were apprized that at that time all connection had ceased between Mrs. C. and h. r. h. the D. of York? I understood that h. r. h. and Mrs. C. had had no connection for 3 years previous to that; it was not through the D. of Y.'s interest it was understood it could be obtained.
§ Through whose interest was it understood that this was to be obtained, through the influence of Mrs. C? Mrs. C. informed me that 490 she had very good interest with the Duke of Portland, and that, she could obtain any appointment.
§ Can you inform the Committee what was to be the recompence, supposing the Deanery had been obtained? I cannot: I believe that it was 3,000l. that was offered for one of them by a subscription: I did it to oblige a friend: there was a subscription to have been entered into by some ladies, they did subscribe upwards of 3,000l.; as I was instructed, it was for the Revd. Mr. Bazely, I think that was the name of the gentleman; he was to have been agreeably surprised with a promotion, provided it had been carried into effect, but he was on no account to know it. Mrs. C. answered, that the Duke of Portland had no interest in the Church, the Queen having taken the patronage to herself.
§ Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. C. since the commencement of the present examination? I have received one Letter from Mrs. C. since the commencement of this examination, or on the day, it was on Wednesday week I think; I have received two letters from Mrs. C. since the motion of Mr. Wardle, the one on the Saturday subsequent to the Friday night on which the motion was made, the other on the Wednesday on which day I believe the hon. house went into the exanimation.
§ Did you at any time give any credit to the idea of Mrs. C having any degree of influence with the Duke of Portland? I certainly did give credit to it in the first instance.
§ Did you believe that Mrs. C. had such influence with the Duke of Portland as she had exercised with the D. of Y. on other applications? She never did make any application to the D. of Y. for me in her life.
§ Were not you privy to the whole transaction of col. French? Nor never heard any thing of it, till the levy was about to be raised, till col. French called upon me to inform me that he was raising recruits for that levy, and asked me whether I could recommend him any old Serjeants that he could employ upon that duty.
§ Did Mrs. C. give any reason to you for the assertion she had made respecting her belief, as to any person's power of disposing of the patronage of the Church? Mrs. C. informed me that the D. of Portland had not the patronage of the Church, but there were other appointments that She had mentioned to me, that caused me to suppose that the D. of Portland had the appointments of the Church to dispose of.
§ Have you received two or three letters from Mrs. C. within this last month? I have received letters from Mrs. C, many during the months of Nov., Deb., and January.
§ Have you the letters which you state yourself to have received from Mrs. C, since Mr. Wardle's notice on the present investigation? I have two letters, and the reason I brought them was in hopes that Mr. Wardle would do 491 me the honour to read the letters of mine, which it was mentioned he had in his possession from Mrs. C. I am perfectly willing to meet every charge that can criminate myself, but I should be sorry to involve any person that is innocent. I believe Mr. Wardle made his motion on the 27th of January.
§ [The witness delivered in two letters, which were read, dated the 28th of Jan., and the 1st of Feb. 1809.]
§ Dear sir; I am much mortified in seeing, in this day's paper, the free use of your name and mine in the debate last night. I however took an opportunity of seeing Mr. Wardle on the subject, and I find he is by no means so ill disposed as his speech seemed to evince; but he tells me, that as I have committed myself, and my papers, he is determined to make every possible use of them, that to him seems proper. I must be candid, and tell you, that in order to facilitate some negociations, I had given him a few of your letters. In one you speak of the QUEEN, in another the two Deaneries. As to myself, I must of course speak the truth, as I shall be put on oath. Let me persuade you, if called on, to keep to the truth, as I am convinced you will; but I mean the whole truth, as to what has passed formerly between yourself and me I have a thousand thanks for your being so quiet upon the 130.; you shall have it the moment my mother comes from Bath. I fear, if you are backward, Wardle will expose the whole of the letters he has to the House. Your's truly, Saturday evening." M. A. CLARKE. In order to relieve your mind, I send my servant, though late."
§ "Reed. 28th Jan. 1809, late at night."
§ "Wednesday morning, Feb. 1st 1809."
§ "Dear Sir, I yesterday saw Mr. Wardle; he had a letter yesterday from your friend Glass, begging him not to take any business in hand, where his name is mentioned; and he asks for you also. He was Tutor to Wardle. Now Mr. Wardle as sures me, by every thing honourable, that if you speak candidly and fairly to the fact of Tonyns, he will ask nothing more; and if he has been at all intemperate with your name, he will do it every justiceTake my advice and do it: it cannot injure you. I understand your friend Tuck, some months ago put a friend of his in possession of Tonyn's business; and yesterday a man of the name of Finnerty gave him a case, which, he says, he had from you, of a capt. Trotter and another. Of course you will not mention my telling you this, I wish from my soul Mr. Wardle had taken it up less dispassionately, he might have done more good. Why do 492 you not send me a line? I dare say Clavering is hugging himself, as he did not send the recommendation. Yours, &c. M. A. C."
§ (By Mr. Sturges Bourne).
§ What rank have you in the army? Lieutenant.
§ How long have you been in the army? I went into the army in 1778.
§ In what regiment have you been? In the Queen's Rangers.
§ Are you now in the Queen's Rangers? I entered into the army in 1778 in the Queen's Rangers: in consequence of my services in the Queen's Rangers I was recommended into the regiment called the North Carolina volunteers, then under col. Hamilton; the hon. major Cochrane, then major to the British legion commanded by lieut. col. Tarleton now gen. Tarleton, induced me to resign my company in the North Carolina regiment and to accept a lieutenancy in the British legion under the command of lieut. col. 'Tarleton, which I imprudently did under the promise of the first troop or company that should become vacant in that regiment. I served in that regiment during the remainder of the war, from 1780 till the reduction of the regiment in Oct. 1783; I brought home a detachment of that regiment, and was placed upon halfpay; in consequence of my wound being very bad it was impossible for me to accept a commission upon full pay, many of which had been offered to me by colonels of different regiments in consequence of those wounds I have suffered; I am sorry to say that my surgeon, who did attend, is gone, or he could explain my present sufferings, but I have suffered more than is conceivable for any person who looks well in health as I do, being lusty I have not been able to take off my clothes or lie down for the last five years; about six years from this period I was confined 16 weeks under the care of Mr. Everard Home, Mr. M' Gregor of the Military Asylum, and Mr. Rivers of Spring Gardens, Mr. Astley Cooper also attended me, and I am now obliged to employ a surgeon, that is Mr. Carpue, either he or his assistant dresses my wound daily: in consequence of the recommendations of the hon. the late marquis Cornwallis and lord Moira I was placed in a veteran battalion as a compensation in some degree for my expences as well as my sufferings from this wound, and through the same interest I obtained leave of absence till further orders; there are many other officers under similar circumstances in the army, it being the only means by which h. r. h. the Commander in Chief can remunerate their services, at least that was the answer given by the adjutant general to lieut. col. Christie of the 11th veteran battalion (on the Strength of which I at present draw my pay) when he applied last year to have me removed upon the retired list: with respect to my provincial services, I presume they go for nothing; I served 15 months in a fencible regiment at 493 home as lieutenant and surgeon; I served 3 years in the militia as lieutenant and surgeon, and I served 3 years as a surgeon in an armed vessel appointed by the Treasury, and I trust it will not be thought too much that I draw the pay of a lieutenant.
§ (By Mr. Wardle).
§ You have stated that you never sent in any names to Mrs. C., either for promotion or for commissions in the army? Not till Nov. or Dec. last did I ever apply to Mrs. C. for any commissions in the army, either directly or indirectly.
§ Do you recollect what commissions you applied for then to Mrs. C.? I do not; there were some companies, but for whom I do not recollect.
§ Do you recollect what you asked Mrs. C. to do respecting those companies? I perfectly recollect that Mrs. C. informed me that she had interest with a great many gentlemen, honourable members of this house; that she had also great connections amongst General Officers, and that she could procure letters of recommendation which might accelerate any applications that were lying before the D. of Y. for purchases of commissions.
§ Did you send any letters of recommendation from the commanding officers of regiments in favour of officers for promotions to Mrs. C.? I sent three letters, I think, from three different field officer, recommending gentlemen for purchase from lieutenancies to companies. Those gentlemen had been recommended, if I mistake not, about 12 months, but their recommendations had not been attended to, to accelerate which it was thought advisable to procure the recommendations I have already stated, and Mrs. C. informing me she could do it, I placed these recommendations in her hands for that purpose.
§ Inform the committee how you got possession of those letters yourself.—I will; I got possession of those letters from Mr. Froome, under the following circumstances: Mr. Froome called upon me, and informed me that he was about to resume his station or to he appointed a clerk in the house of Mr. Greenwood, upon condition that he should make oath or give security, one or the other, that he would never do any thing in the commission line as a broker in future; that if I could do any thing with those three appointments which had hung so long, I should serve very deserving young men, and should be remunerated for my trouble: that is the fact, however it may criminate me.
§ State what the remuneration was to have been upon each of those commissions? It was above 300i.; but how much I cannot say.
§ Do you mean to state that above 300l. were to have been paid above the Regulation Price for carrying the point? Certainly, on each commission.
§ Do you know of your own knowledge, through what means that 300l. upon each was procured? I do not.494
§ Only you moan to state that the officer purchasing was to have paid 300l. above the regulation? I mean to state that both of those officers purchasing, on being gazetted, was to make the compliment of 300l.
§ And it was Mr. Froome who put the three commissions into your hands? Yes, he did, under the circumstances I have already related.
§ Had yon ever any conversation with anybody but Mr. Froome respecting these commissions? I had conversations of course with Mrs. C.; I had conversations with Mr. Glasse.
§ Who is Mr. Glasse? The rev. George Henry Glasse.
§ Had you never a conversation with any other person respecting those appointments? I do not recollect that I had any conversation with any person, save and except Mr. Glasse, Mrs. C, and Mr. Froome; I do not recollect any other person.
§ Do you recollect any other transactions of that nature coming under your knowledge? There was a majority I think, or two, under similar circumstances.
§ Do you recollect what sum above the regulation was to have been paid on the majority? I do not.
§ Do you recollect any other commissions that fell under the same circumstances? I do not recollect any other commission but the two majorities, and those three companies.
§ Did those majorities come from Mr. Froome aiso? They did.
§ Did not Mr. Froome at that time tell you what remuneration was to be given? It is very possible that he might, but I do not recollect the remuneration.
§ Do you know what your share of the profit was to be? I do not.
§ What part of the transaction were you to act? He was to procure the letters from Mrs. C.; to attach them to those recommendations and memorials, and to put them into the box at the Horse-Guards, and to let them take their chance; and if they succeeded, then we were to be remunerated.
§ Therefore, the part Mrs. C. was to have acted, was either to have got the recommendation backed by a member of parliament, or some other person likely to give Strength to such recommendation? That was the part.
§ What was she to have had for that part? She was to have had, I believe, upon each of the majorities 500l. as nearly as I can recollect.
§ What was she to have had for the companies? I forget exactly; but it was either 100, or more than 100.
§ Do you know captain Tuck? I do.
§ Do you recollect in the year 1804 or 1805, offering capt. Tuck a majority at a very low price? I remember that in 1804 or 1805, Messrs. Austen and Maunde told me, that they expected to be appointed agents to a regiment that was to he raised by a col Dillon; that commissions were to be obtained in that regiment, or some other, and that there were many other levies to be raised; and that the 495 prices in that regiment were to he for an ensigncy so much; for a lieutenancy so much; a company so much; and I believe that was the whole of the steps. The colonel had the appointments; where they were either to raise so many men for their commission. or pay a certain sum of money to the colonel, I met capt. Tuck either in Parliament-street or Whitehall; he had been employed by the hon. col. Hanger to raise a levy, and by that had obtained the rank of captain, and was then upon half-pay. I told him, if he wished to get the step of majority, I thought if he would raise the men, or pay a sum of money, he might get a majority. I never thought any more of it till I met capt. Tuck in the room this evening.
§ Do you not recollect naming any other person as a party in this transaction, respecting the commissions that were sent in to Mrs. C.? I do not recollect, but there may be some other persons; I do not conceive any other persons could have been mentioned.
§ Will you name any other person that you can recollect? I do not recollect any other persons, or I would name them.
§ Did you mention the name of Mr. Greenwood? I never mentioned the name of Mr. Greenwood in the transaction at all, further than Mr. Froome was obliged either to make an affidavit, or give security to Mr. Greenwood, that he would not act as a broker in future, or he would lose his situation.
§ Who is Dr. Glasse, or Mr. Glasse?, whom you have mentioned in the course of your examination, and who is mentioned in one of the letters? The Rev. George Henry Glasse, of Hanwell.
§ How long have you known Mr. Glasse? I have known him for some years, but cannot exactly say how long.
§ Has Mr. Glasse ever made any application to you relative to church or other preferment? Never in my life.
§ Or you to him? I have not; I, of my own accord, very imprudently promised to Mrs. C. that if she could procure the deanery of Hereford for Mr. Glasse, I should he extremely happy that she should do so; but I never told Mr. Glasse of it till I think last Saturday was se'ennight, or Monday was se'ennight, and then Mr. Glasse was exceedingly enraged that I should have taken the liberty with his name.
§ What induced you to make that application? The very great friendship I had for Mr. Glasse, and not conceiving that I was doing that which was improper at the time, or I would not have done it.
§ Did you offer 1,000l.? I did.
§ And did it without Mr. Glasse's knowledge?
§ Yes, without his knowledge, upon my sacred honour, and he never knew of it until the other day.
§ You have stated that you would not have made this offer if you bad been aware that the transaction had been improper; did you conceive the other transactions, which you have 496 Stated to the committee you had a hand in, to be proper transactions? I knew that these transactions pass daily, and therefore, I thought that there was nothing so very heinous in the crime; but I certainly did not conceive it altogether proper.
§ How did you know such transactions pas daily? I had heard that such transactions passed.
§ Do you know, of your own knowledge, that such transactions pass daily? I never was concerned in any transaction of that kind, save and except, the business of capt. Tonyn, which I should be happy to explain; I believe I had also the introduction of major Shaw.
§ Do you recall to your mind the recollection of any other transactions of this kind? I do not.
§ You stated at the commencement of your examination, that you were not a trafficker in places under government; do you abide by that statement now? If you will permit to explain the business of capt. Tonyn, I shall be obliged; but further than those I have mentioned, I have never trafficked in any places under government; if I had I would not deny it.
§ Have any of those other negotiations you have mentioned to the committee, been carried into effect? Not one through me.
§ Do you know whether those negotiations about the companies and the majorities were carried into effect or not? Not one of them.
§ Were you to receive any remuneration, supposing the negotiation had been effected? Certainly.
§ Do you not call that trafficking in places under government? I will leave it for you, gentlemen, to decide; I did not consider it so.
§ Are those the only transactions of the kind, in which you ever in your life have been concerned? I believe they are.
§ Be sure whether they are or not? I cannot be sure, because I do not recollect any other; if I did, or you will do me the favour to point out any others, I will not deny them.
§ (By Lord Folkestone.)
§ How long have you known Mrs. Clarke? I knew Mrs. Clarke, I believe, in the year 1805.
§ Have you kept up your acquaintance with Mrs. C. from that time to the present day? I had not seen Mrs. C. till Nov. last, for nearly three years; more than two years however.
§ You had not seen Mrs. C. till Nov. last, since her separation from the D. of Y.? Yes.
§ Were you in the habit of seeing her when she was connected with the D. of Y.? I saw her, I believe, two or three times, and that only when she was connected with the D. of Y. or at least when she lived in Gloucester-place.
§ Did you see her only two or three times in the course of your lifetime, before the month of November last? I presume in the course of my lifetime, that I may have seen her half a dozen times before Nov. last, for she lived in Burlington-street, at a Mr. Russel Manners's, and, I saw her there twice.497
§ At what period was that? That I suppose must have been in 1806, or the latter end of 1805; it was after she was separated from the D. of Y. or left Gloucester-place.
§ How did your acquaintance with Mrs. C. begin? My acquaintance with Mrs. C. commenced in consequence of a report which had been circulated that I was the author of some scurrilous paragraphs reflecting on h. r. h. the D. of Y.; I traced it to capt. Sutton, an acquaintance of Mrs. C.'s; I endeavoured to trace them out, but in vain. I requested that I might be introduced to Mrs. C. to vindicate myself; I never had written a paragraph against any one of the royal family in my life, and that was what introduced me to Mrs. C.'s acquaintance.
§ You have stated that while Mrs. C. resided in Gloucester-place, you saw her three or four times; did you call upon her in Gloucester-place? I called upon her three or four times, it was at the house I saw her.
§ Did you go of your own accord? Iwent of my own accord, having; obtained permission to see her; I was three or four months before I could obtain permission to see her; so strong was the impression against me as being the author of those paragraphs, that Mrs. C. would not see me, nor hear my name.
§ How often did you see Mrs. C. when you called at Gloucester-place? I believe three different times.
§ When you saw Mrs. C. did you go of your own accord, or did she desire you to come? She never desired me to come that I know of, further than one particular period, which was in order to inquire the description of capt. Tonyn.
§ When you went of your own accord, with what view did you go? In order to do away the report that I had been the author of these paragraphs against h. r. h. the D. of Y.
§ All the times that you went, you went with that view? Twice only, I believe; I never was at Mrs. C.'s above three times in my life in Gloucester-place.
§ You have stated that you called there frequently before you could see Mrs. C. and that you then called three different times, and saw Mrs. C.? I did not mention that I had called often at Mrs. C.'s, and have not seen her.
§ Did you do away the impressions entertained against you at your first interview with Mrs. C.? Not altogether.
§ How many interviews were necessary to do away entirely those impressions? Two
§ Did you entirely do away those impressions in two interviews? I believe I did.
§ With what view did you call upon Mrs. C. the third time you saw her? In order to procure the insertion of some letters in the Morning Post.
§ What was the subject of those letters? The subject of those letters was answers to the letters of Belisarius.
§ Why was it necessary for you to go to Mrs. C to procure the insertion of those letters? Be-cause Mrs. C. had asked it as a favour of me.498
§ To do what? To get those letters inserted in the Morning Post.
§ Do you mean to say that you carried those letters to Mrs. C. because Mrs. C. had desired you to insert them in the Morning Post? I did not carry them to Mrs. C. I received them from Mrs. C.
§ Then the third time you went to Gloucester-place, you went to get those letters? I did.
§ Did you go then of your own accord, or by the desire of Mrs. C.? At the desire of Mrs. C, I believe so; it, is really so long since, that I cannot say whether I volunteered my services to go that day for those letters, or whether she had appointed that day for me to call for those letters; I did call for those letters, and got them inserted in the Morning Post.
§ You have stated, that though you did not traffic in commissions, you have had a hand in procuring commissions at different times; had you any dealings of that sort with Mrs. C, or others, at the time Mrs. C. lived under the protection of the D. of Y.? I never had any transaction with Mrs. C. as to any commission, either direct or indirect, till this in Nov. of three companies and two majorities.
§ In Nov. last, did you know that Mrs. C. was no longer connected with the Commander in Chief? Mrs. C. informed me that she had been long at variance with the Commander in Chief, and never should be connected with him again.
§ How came you, having that knowledge, to apply to Mrs. C. for her interest for promotions? Not with any view to her interest with h. r h. but Mrs. C. had told me that she had great interest with members of parliament and general officers, that she could procure recommendations of the different colonels of the regiments to which those gentlemen belonged.
§ Were the transactions of which you have spoken, the only transactions of the kind in which you have ever been concerned? I have answered that question repeatedly.
§ Have you ever carried on any negociations respecting writerships to India, besides that winch has been already mentioned? I have.
§ How many? One.
§ In behalf of whom? I cannot charge my memory who the young gentleman was.
§ At what time? Last year.
§ The year 1808? I believe it was; and it was the writership that Mr. O'Hara refused; that same writership.
§ Did you succeed in that negociation? I did.
§ What money was paid in consequence of that? I do not recollect; but I believe it was 3,500l.
§ What did you receive in consequence of your exertions in that negociation? 250l.
§ From whom did you receive that money? From Mr. Tahourdin.
§ To whom was the other sum of 3,000 and odd pounds paid? To Mr. Tahourdin, I presume; but I was not present at the receipt of the money.
§ With whom did you treat for it?? I do not know the name of the gentleman with whom I treated for it; I did not expect to be called upon, and did not charge my memory. The gentleman was a stranger at the time.
§ Have you, or not, been concerned in any other transactions of this kind? I do not recollect any other.
§ Are you certain that you have not been concerned in any transactions of this kind? I am not certain; but I do not recollect any other. I do not believe I have.
§ Are you certain that you have not been concerned in any transactions of this kind? I could almost say I am; but I will not.
§ Have you ever had any part in negociating a cadetship? I do not recollect any cadetship I that I ever have.
§ If you are not in the habit of concerning yourself in matters of this sort, it is very extraordinary that you should not recollect; try to recollect whether you have had any concern in negociating for cadetships? I do not recollect: I may have applied, but I do not recollect passing any cadet.
§ Do you make a habit of dealing in things of this nature? I have made no further habit of it than that which I have already stated.
§ Have you ever had any concern in a negociation for procuring a situation in the Customhouse? Mrs. C. informed me that she had interest through which she could appoint a collector of the customs, and several others. I mentioned it to a gentleman, not with a view to bring it to my own interest at all.
§ When was this? In November or December. Mr. Wardle can inform you.
§ (By Mr. Smith.)
§ You have stated that you concluded a negociation through Mr. Tahourdin for a writership to India; endeavour to recollect the name of the young gentleman that was appointed? I cannot, for I do not know that I ever knew him.
§ Cannot you, when you return to your office, find out the name and bring it to this committee? I have no office.
§ Cannot you when you return borne to your own house, look into your hooks and find the name of the young man? I cannot, for I keep no books; I am not confident that I ever knew the name of the young gentleman.
§ Have you no memorandum or slip of paper? I have none by which I can trace it.
§ Cannot you ascertain by what director the young man was appointed? I cannot, for I never knew.
§ Do you know that any director, who takes money for an appointment of this nature, breaks his solemn oath which he takes when he enters into the service of the East India company? I presume a director may dispose of his card for a writership, or a cadetcy, and it may be sold, and the directors know nothing, and receive no emolument, confiding to a gentleman that he would not suspect of doing so.500
§ In what year was this? It was I believe last year.
§ To what presidency was it? I do not know.
§ You have said that you once made an application to Mrs. C. in favour of Mr. Glasse, without the knowledge or privity of Mr. Glasse; if the application in favour of Mr. Glasse had succeeded, by whom was the money to have been given for it? By me.
§ Did yon mean to pay it yourself out of friendship for Mr. Glasse, without any hope of remuneration from him? I did, by the commissions which were to have been disposed of. I intended Mrs. C. should retain as much out of those commissions as would have paid for that situation, provided it could have been obtained.
§ You meant to make a present to Mr. Glasse, to the full amount of the remuneration you were to give to Mrs. C. for procuring him some deanery, or whatever the church preferment was? I did.
§ (By Mr. Whitbread.)
§ Which of the applications was the first, in point of time, for the preferment in the church, or for the preferment in the army?—The preferment in the army, I believe, took place in Nov.; some other situations and arrangements Mrs. C. had made were previous to that.
§ Which preceded, in point of time, the application for the captaincies and the majorities, or for Mr. Glasse? I believe that the situations Mrs. C. pointed out in the West Indies, and the situation that she pointed out at home, one was in the commissariat, I believe, which she said she could obtain; and the other was that of landing waiter. Those were the situations she first promised, which she said the Duke of Portland was to have given to her. Out of those commissions it was that she was to have been paid.
§ Is the committee to understand that those commissions, of which you have now been talking, are fresh commissions, the advantage derived from which was to repay the 1,000l. to be paid for the deanery of Mr. Glasse; or is the committee to understand that the advantage proceeding from the captaincy and the majority before-mentioned were to pay it? From the commissariat appointment and the landing waiter; not from the captaincy and majority.
§ Then this Landing Waiter and Commissariat are new appointments? They are new transactions.
§ Not before stated to the committee? I forgot to state them to the committee.
§ At the outset of your examination, you stated, that you never had trafficked, directly or indirectly, for any places under government of any description? I never carried any into effect.
§ The words "carried into effect" were not put in; you have now enumerated not less than nine situations for which you have carried on negociations; you also stated, that you thought the crime was not so heinous, because you knew the practice to be daily taking place; what practices do you allude to which you knew were daily taken place? The disposal of com- 501 missions, I believe, has been generally reported to have taken place; but I know not any which took place which I had any connection or concern with whatever.
§ Do you know of any transactions so taking place, with which you had or had not concern? I have heard of things, but do not know of any.
§ You do not know, in any way, of such transactions having taken place? I have heard of such transactions.
§ Do you know of such transactions? The transaction of capt. Tonyn I beg leave to mention here; I must allude to that and major Shaw: I did not understand how either of those were carried into effect till last November: I never knew that Mrs. C. was concerned in major Shaw's business till last Nov. Captain Tonyn was gazetted in 1304; and Mrs. C., in 1805 I understood was the person who had obtained that promotion for major Tonyn.
§ Independently of that case of major Tonyn, there is a case of major Shaw's, of which you have heard? I heard last Nov. only.
§ Do you know of any other besides major Shaw and capt. Tonyn? I do not recollect any other.
§ Are you sure you do not know of any other? I do not recollect any other.
§ Do you, or do you not know of any other?
§ I do not know of any other that I recollect; nor do I believe that I recollect any other.
§ Do you not know of some others? I know of no others, to the best of my knowledge; if I did, I would mention it, but I do not; I believe I know of no other whatever.
§ You have said positively you know of no other? I believe not.
§ You have said once positively you knew of no other; do you say positively whether you knew of no other? Do you mean to say I have been concerned with others.
§ Have you been concerned in any other? Not at all.
§ Do you not know of any other? I do not, to the best of my knowledge; it is impossible for me to charge my memory; I have told you every thing to the best of my knowledge and belief.
§ (By Mr. Croker.)
§ When you were asked concerning certain custom-house appointments, you said that col. Wardle, an hon. member of this house, could tell about them; what can you say of col. Wardle's knowledge of those appointments? I must refer to Mrs. C. for that.
§ What has Mrs. C. told you relative to that? That she could procure recommendations from great people, and she mentioned the name of Mr. Wardle also, not as the person that would recommend, but as the person who knew others that she should make acquainted with the circumstance.
§ What other persons, besides col. Wardle, did she mention as knowing of these matters? Not as knowing, for she told me, she should tell col. Wardle.
§ (By. Mr. R. Dundas.)
§ Who was the person with whom you negociated in the last transaction to which you have alluded, with respect to the writership? Mr. Tahourdin.
§ You stated that it was through him the money was paid, was he the only person with whom you negociated? He was the person who procured the appointment, but from whom I cannot say.
§ Was he the only person with whom you negociated, or had any concern or dealing in this transaction? The gentleman who obtained the introduction for his young friend, of course I negociated with also, as I introduced them together; Mr. Tahourdin and that gentleman, I really cannot tell the gentleman's name, for I do not recollect it; but I dare say Mr. Tahourdin would furnish me with his name.
§ State to the committee whether you first applied to Mr. Tahourdin, or Mr. Tahourdin to you? I did not apply to Mr. Tahourdin; he was recommended to me in consequence of a letter I had from a lady in Dublin, to procure a writership for Mr. O'Hara.
§ Who recommended Mr. Tahourdin to you? Messrs. Austen and Maunde recommended him. to me.
§ Do you know whether that writership was the subject of any advertisement in the newspapers? Not at all that I know of.
§ Not being a trafficker in places, but yet having a certain tendency to negociate them, and to take a pecuniary advantage by them, how came you not to apply to Mrs. C. while she had an acquaintance with h. r. h., but to apply after that had ceased; and when her connection with the Duke of Portland and members of this house was a little more distant? I have already explained that business; it was merely the effect of chance; Mrs. C. sent for me, and proposed the business to me; it was not the effect of my application.
§ At what number in Argyle-street does Mr. Tahourdin live? I do not know, but his name is upon the door.
§ Did Mr. Tahourdin receive the nomination of the writership immediately from the director, or through the medium of a third person? I never asked Mr. Tahourdin from, whom he procured it, or how he procured it.
§ Is the lady, who applied to you on behalf of Mr. O'Hara, an acquaintance of your's? She is.
§ You have stated, that you saw nothing of Mrs. C. from the middle of the year 1806, till last November; was that interruption in your intercourse occasioned by any difference that you had together? Not the least.
§ What was it owing to? Because I had no acquaintance with Mrs. C. further than I have already stated; I never saw her more than four times previous to her separation from h. r. h. the Duke of York.503
§ [The witness was directed to withdraw; the Chairman was directed to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.]
§ A conversation then took place respecting the farther progress of the proceedings.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that it was impossible to conceive that any thing more important could come before the house than the present investigation. He was of opinion, therefore, that the Committee ought to sit. again that day. He hoped, therefore, that gentlemen who had given notices of motions would agree to postpone them.
The Committee was accordingly ordered to be resumed this day.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that as the Sale of the Writership was not connected with the Charges against the D. of Y., it would not be proper to call Mr. Tahourdin. It might perhaps be done on the ground of discrediting the evidence of the last witness; but as the affair was totally distinct from the investigation at present before the house, the farther introduction of it might produce much inconvenience: he would recommend it to the hon. member rather to move for a Committee up stairs, for the purpose of investigating the appointment in question.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that the house must be convinced, from what had passed, of the necessity of some legislative proceeding, to prevent the scandalous practice carried on in the sale of Commissions, and Places under government. He had refrained from introducing any measure while the present investigation was in progress, but some step, it was evident, ought to be speedily taken to stop the evil. It was his opinion, that the advertising of such places ought to be made a crime; that the money advanced, or agreed to be given, should be forfeited; that heavy penalties should be imposed, and that all persons concerned in such traffic should be rendered guilty of a misdemeanor.
§ Mr. Smith,
in consequence of the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, withdrew his motion, and gave notice that he would, on the next meeting of the house, move the appointment of a Select Committee.
was called to the Bar, to state what he knew of William Williams. He said that he had known him several years ago; that he was sometimes very troublesome, and that he considered him not a fit person to be allowed to go at large, he was deranged in his intellects.
It was then moved, "That William Williams be discharged without paying his fees."—This motion occasioned a short conversation, Mr. W. Wynne and Mr. Dickenson thought that, as the prisoner had been taken into custody on a very serious charge, it would not become the dignity of the house to dismiss him without some further enquiry, though they had no doubt that the statement of Mr. Lowten would prove perfectly correct. Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Adam, and others, were of opinion that the prisoner ought not to be detained, and the question being put, it was carried in the affirmative. The prisoner was accordingly discharged.
§ Adjourned at half past four o'clock on Friday morning.